cge2k4

[liab1228]

is cge 2k4 moving?
x_x :hmm:

[digitalpress]

OK, let me set the record straight. Las Vegas is a great place for a small show but if any of you have been to PhillyClassic or even the brand new Austin show, you've seen the benefit of having an event in a populated area. Please read on.

Las Vegas is an island. Like it or not, the only people that go to CGE are the ones who specifically travel out of their way to get there. No people driving by saying "ooh! Look what's going on here this weekend!", no families picking up the paper and saying "now this looks like something fun to do this weekend". And thus, we have "maxed out" in Vegas.

The other very strong consideration that I can impart to you is that most of our guest alumni come from the west coast. Not Las Vegas. To get to Las Vegas, most of them have to set time aside, take a vacation and go. Whereas when we visited Game Developer Conference last year, it was a breeze getting the same number of alumni to a simple after-dinner party on a Friday night. These folks are a major impetus to the show and though they've been very good about setting time aside, it's time we gave a little something back and moved to an area where they could simply block out a weekend instead of making travel plans and using vacation days.

That said, I talked to a number of vendors and alumni this past weekend after we announced this thought at the dinner on Friday, and everyone - even Katz, Kunkel and Worley, who live right IN Las Vegas - thought this was the only way to grow. Classic Gaming Expo should be a 5,000 attendee show, and with a bigger floor and many more vendors, all of the things we're discussing here can actually happen. In the words of Arnie Katz "the ONLY way you can expand the scope of your work is to make it more accessible".

I'm NOT saying it's definitely going to happen, but we really WANT to move it. Please support this decision - six years in Las Vegas has taught us a lot, and it's simply time to move on!

[Six Switch]

If it won't be in Vegas then do you have any ideas where it will be?

[Dan Iacovelli]

they are thinking about moving it to california.
AVC/JCU does support your decision on moving the show as long it's good for the show.
We support any gaming event and we do put listings of current shows in our fanzine as long we get it before the show.
Dan Iacovelli
AVC/JCU chairperson

[digitalpress]

If it won't be in Vegas then do you have any ideas where it will be?

Ideally, the "bay area". Not necessarily San Francisco but we're scouting out San Jose (where Game Developer's Conference is held) and surrounding areas. We've already got a bunch of areas and even specific locales suggested by our show's guest speakers.

It's really way too early for details but since this was announced at the Friday night honorary banquet before the Expo it's only fair we share our thoughts with everyone.

Feedback, as always, is appreciated :)

[Darth Vader]

If it won't be in Vegas then do you have any ideas where it will be?

Ideally, the "bay area". Not necessarily San Francisco but we're scouting out San Jose (where Game Developer's Conference is held) and surrounding areas. We've already got a bunch of areas and even specific locales suggested by our show's guest speakers.

It's really way too early for details but since this was announced at the Friday night honorary banquet before the Expo it's only fair we share our thoughts with everyone.

Feedback, as always, is appreciated :)

I would say move it to Green Bay in the newly renovated Lambeau Field. ;) :P :roll:

Danny

[Anonymous]

As sad as I would be to lose my only excuse to go to Vegas every year, I fully support anything that helps CGE grow. Plus my 24 hour drive would be cut to a mere 15 hours. What about LA?

[Queen Of The Felines]

What about Chicago? C'mon, you can crash on my futon! LOL

Kristine

[Boboduo]

I like vegas but would go to where ever CGE is held. The show
has been that much fun in the two years I've gone!

[DogP]

Yup, I'm up for anywhere... the show was amazing... I'd probably make a trip overseas if that's where the show was :P . DC would be nice though :D , but I've never been to the west coast, so a vacation there would be cool with me.

DogP

[dave2236]

I second the motion for Green Bay.

You can all stay at my house and I will set up TV's and cots in the garage.

[hades]

I'm all about it moving to the Bay Area... my future home after I graduate college and have to scrounge around in this economy to find a tech job. I've wanted to go to the Bay Area since I was a little tyke.

Anyhow -- I think anywhere it'll be held where it can grow is great. The furtherst I've ever been from Central Pennsylvania is a high school bus trip to Florida. I've never flown before or been that far west but it was definately a learning experience that anyone who's been stuck in a state should do.

Wherever CGE goes it'll be better than the last I think. :) Now that I got over my fear of flying maybe I'll get over the fear of driving in Philly and make the trip out to philly.

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

All I ask in the whole moving-CGE debate is that a decision is made, dates set and locations decided as early as is practically possible. I've a feeling hitting the Bay Area from where I am, and this may go for others as well, will require a little bit more advanced trip planning/booking.

It sucks living out in what we rocket scientists refer to clinically as the STICKS.

[Gamemaster_ca_2003]

how abot moving it to canada. I would vote for Vancouver

[MarioAllStar2600]

Awsome. I love Las Vegas and all but, It's so far from me. Im happy about this. Hopefully its within 3 hours of my house. then I could drive there (easier to get my items to and from). Have it on the island me and John would enjoy that.

[hades]

Awsome. I love Las Vegas and all but, It's so far from me. Im happy about this. Hopefully its within 3 hours of my house. then I could drive there (easier to get my items to and from). Have it on the island me and John would enjoy that.

I had to buy an extra suitcase from one of the sideshops at Vegas just to cart all my crap home with me. :/

[AWinnerIsYou]

What about Boston, then I could show you the old Atari facilities in Cambridge :D

[ClubNinja]

Only if NECG allows it ;)

[john_soper]

Well.... I'm in San Jose and that would be nice, but I still don't really
understand the reasoning. Just a drive from San Francisco down to
San Jose is 45 minutes when there's no traffic, while getting to Vegas
is about 2.5 hours with airport time.
There's a lot of programmers in Ca, but is there really enough in one
area to make it worthwhile?
More expensive food, less attractions for making the significant other
happy, no real gambling.
This may be a taboo subject, but has anyone considered how the
Austin Gaming Convention hurt attendance? It was two weeks before,
three states over, and a lot of the 1000+ people who attended have
limits with either their budget, time off, or family.
John
www94.pair.com/jsoper

[digitalpress]

Well.... I'm in San Jose and that would be nice, but I still don't really
understand the reasoning. Just a drive from San Francisco down to
San Jose is 45 minutes when there's no traffic, while getting to Vegas
is about 2.5 hours with airport time.

The problem is that it takes everyone 2.5 hours or more to get to Vegas, and you're adding in the plane which is an additional cost for those on the west coast that we'd avoid. Moving the show into a populated area will allow more local traffic.


There's a lot of programmers in Ca, but is there really enough in one
area to make it worthwhile?

At least double as many. As I stated above, we were able to get as many alumni to an impromptu after-hours event as we were able to drag out to Vegas over the course of a whole year.


More expensive food, less attractions for making the significant other
happy, no real gambling.

If the entire bay area rolls their carpets in with no night life at all, then we'll create the night life. Wherever we go, we'll be sure to create an after-show event worth sticking around for.


This may be a taboo subject, but has anyone considered how the
Austin Gaming Convention hurt attendance? It was two weeks before,
three states over, and a lot of the 1000+ people who attended have
limits with either their budget, time off, or family.

It's not taboo, we advertised the Austin Gaming Expo pretty heavily, and will do so again next year! It may have cut into CGE attendance but the attendance grew this year regardless and has remained fairly constant at 1200-1400 over the past 3 years. This is the very reason why we feel the need to move. We've "maxed out".

Thanks for your input, John!

[Randy]

The other very strong consideration that I can impart to you is that most of our guest alumni come from the west coast. Not Las Vegas. To get to Las Vegas, most of them have to set time aside, take a vacation and go.

There are probably more classic gaming "artifacts" on the west coast as well, like prototypes and artwork. So maybe the CGE museum could benefit from the new location as well (in the form of more items brought for display).

[Dan Iacovelli]

Well I'm sure where ever CGE goes it will be a sucsess.
since it's moving to california will the name of the show be changed to
California Gaming Expo :)
here's a thought about the show: have you ever thought about doing the way CES did until 1994? a fall/winter show in one location and a summer show in aother loactaion? it worked well for CES (well at least until 1994 when the final SCES was held in chicago (I was there my first and my last time (I met Don thomas there and katz and the gang was there too))
my .02 cents
take it with a grain of salt :)
Dan Iacovelli

[gavv]

Well I'm sure where ever CGE goes it will be a sucsess.
since it's moving to california will the name of the show be changed to
California Gaming Expo :)
here's a thought about the show: have you ever thought about doing the way CES did until 1994? a fall/winter show in one location and a summer show in aother loactaion? it worked well for CES (well at least until 1994 when the final SCES was held in chicago (I was there my first and my last time (I met Don thomas there and katz and the gang was there too))
my .02 cents
take it with a grain of salt :)
Dan Iacovelli

And it's closer to the old JM productions locale, and would make a 'Starcade at CGE2004' official cool thing much easier to work on logistically (sans the location of mark richards ^^).

gavv

[ubersaurus]

As long as you don't make it the same weekend as the big Street Fighter Nationals in north california as it has been the past 2, 3 years, I'll be happy. Ideally, I'd be able to just stay in california with my cousins and take a week or 2 off of life 8-)

[RCorcoran]

Joe:

Regardless of where you decide to hold the event, Twin Galaxies will be there and will support any decision you make. Count on it. :)

[NE146]

If it moves to the Bay Area, count me in as THERE :D

[l_lamb]

San Jose would be cool because we could drive through Sunnyvale and see the motherland :)

[Drexel923]

I don't really care where it is...I'm definitely going again. It would be nice if it was on the east coast though. Too bad thats never gonna happen.

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

San Jose would be cool because we could drive through Sunnyvale and see the motherland :)

What we need to do is find the old roller rink that Atari used as a factory, and if it's still standing, book THAT for the Expo location. Talk about a pilgrimage! :-D

(Actually, seems like it must still be standing - Al Alcorn went there in that documentary that aired a few months back and said "this is the place.")

[ubikuberalles]

I have mixed emotions on the idea.

I'm not keen on the idea from the travel/logistics point of view. It's more than twice the distance for me which means I'll probably have to fly and that means it's going to cost a lot more for the trip. It also means I won't be able to take as much stuff. Not to mention the airport hassle.

On the other hand if there are going to be more speakers, more people, more events and more stuff at the show, it'll be worth it. I've been to every CGE so far (including WOA 98) and I don't want to break that winning streak.

So, if CGE is moving to California, my vote would be for LA. Less travel time for me and more things to see after the show. I've been to Sunnyvale. BOOOORING! The place shuts down after 9 PM. -_-

[careerbellman]

Im from San Francisco, and DO NOT the CGE moved from Vegas. I kill two birds with one stone when I go there, The convention, and my yearly outting to Vegas. There is Sooo much to do in three days in Vegas, while there is nothing to do in San Jose and San Francisco after the convention. San Francisco is THEE most overrated city in the world. I know because I live here, Hotels are at least double what you would pay in Vegas and pan handlers are out of control here. San Jose is just as bad. Los Angeles would be much better because theres much more to do after the show and its possibly a bit cheaper and the weathers so much better.
I understand your fully bent on moving the show I just wanted to put my two cents in. I will most defentally go next year no matter where its at, you will still have my full support.

[Balloon Fight]

I suggest moving it to San Diego CA. There are many collectors down here, and i think a lot more people would come.

Plus the weather is great! 8-)

[DogP]

Well... I guess I don't really care where it is... Vegas was nice, but I think everyone here has proven the point that they're making... even though some people don't want it moved from Vegas, almost everyone has also said that no matter where it is, they'll go to it... so... by moving it to somewhere in CA where people just see it and decide to go, not really planning it, there is a whole lot more people... in Vegas... we have people that make the trip there for the show... somewhere else, we have the same people that make the trip, plus any walk-ins.

I think if you did the right advertising in a big city, like the news paper, or maybe a TV ad or something, it would bring in a lot of casual gamers in the local area. Plus, I've never been to CA :) .

DogP

[liab1228]

it can be in california and if doesnt work it can always be moved back to vegas. and i agree with DogP.

i dragged my friend to it the last 2 years and he liked it and now he already has plans to go again next year. i will go again if its in vegas or california, it doesnt matter to me because i had fun the last 2 years i went.
[/quote]

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

Actually, Mrs. PDF and I are house-hunting, so let's just move it to my house next year, yeah? I mean, geographically, it'd be very centrally located. :-D

Seriously, I'm up for it wherever it goes. My one concern is that, just test-pricing a trip booking for San Fran/San Jose from where I am, a trip to CA would cost me more to book a year ahead than it cost me to book the trip to Vegas just over a month in advance. (I'm also thinking that can't be right, either.)

[punkoffgirl]

If you check Vegas prices right now, Earl, I'm sure you'll come up with the same results. The prices are higher now, too, than a month prior.

[Balloon Fight]

The best place would be Southern California though. Either LA or San Diego.
It just seems like the perfect place for CGE. Vegas is just to damn hot.

[vectrexer]

Most of the CGE2K4 has been on the move. However there are other important topics that should be covered. So here are my comments on the current items plus more.

On the Whole Move Idea:
I really dislike the drive time (11 hours with stops) to Las Vegas but I do have to admit the night life there cannot be compared to.

On the other hand, the Bay area is just fantastic for its depth of culture for the classic gaming community. This will lead to more rare items for the museum as well as increased availability for some of the more busy speakers to show up. At least those who live on the west coast. I'll bet we see interesting items at the trading session/auction too. Not to mention so really hard to find Arcade games for the floor.


On Combining CGExpo with Another Show:
I would really hesitate considering any idea of combining CGExpo with another show. CGExpo is focused and this is one of the positive aspects of the show.

I heard someone mention the idea of combining CGExpo with California Extreme (http://www.caextreme.org/) and hence the San Jose area bent that most messages seem to have. I went to California Extreme too. It is fantastic! The show floor definitely has many more arcade games than CGExpo has. I do caution the CGExpo organizers that any combination event might completely subsume CGExpo into California Extreme.

If the rumor of California Extreme - CGExpo becomes fact then the Museum will have to be restructured a bit. Why? California Extreme shares is attendance with hard core arcade and classic gamers. Unfortunately, California Extreme attendance attracts those who may not be as kind to museum items as those who attend our current CGExpo. So glassed cases may become an outright requirement rather than a wished for convince. Also bear in mind California Extreme also now attracting the more general public which we may have to be more attentive to for the same reasons. California Extreme - CGExpo become a reality I will definitely be encasing most of my museum items.

Beyond the Museum issues and loss of CGExpo show identity, I think the combination would be acceptable.


On Airfare:
Airfare has the potential to be lower cost as well. Las Vegas can be low cost to fly into though I have not found it to be a screaming deal. As a global destination for the US and the rest of the planet the San Francisco, San Jose, and Oakland airports is very hard to beat with direct flights from most places. Atlanta, NY area, and Dallas would be the only places that are better for the western world but still in the US.


On the New Location being the SF Bay Area:
For nightlife there are things to do in the SF Bay Area as well. More things than the Brass Rail (ref.: woman on Computer Space glossy flyer) and your local hotel. Whether the show is held near San Jose or closer to San Francisco, or in Las Vegas there things to do. Maybe we all won't be able to "Trek Out" to ST:TE. But really people, I enjoyed the company of present and new friends made. Going out consisted mostly of going to dinner and talking. Having Fremont Street available was just a half hour distraction that really wasn't worth the wait anyway. You people are what makes the show worth going to!

If CGExpo as an organizer wants to take the show to the next level on the entertainment front, then have them talk with the local outings companies. The Gray line, Six Flags Great America, and others just love to have groups with themes. CGExpo itself might be an added attraction for them publicize too!

Don't forget the Bay Area does have some pretty good transportation. BART, CalTrain, Santa Clara Transit, and the Capital Corridor systems all overlap each other with fast comfortable rail systems overlapping good bus transportation. Most of us may not care about this. However, for those people on a tight budget and still wishing to attend the show, having good, reasonably priced, public transport can be the final item that determines attendance. Though I fell the Los Angeles, and San Diego areas don't compare, have to admit that every area the show might be put on in is also well served by public transport. Each with it's own advantages for the area served.

On the New Location Being Another West Coast Area:
If the SF Bay Area is not the final choice then I would have to throw my support to San Diego. Sure it is an additional connection for some people flying in, but I have found San Diego to be a more friendly place with the same available night life. And it's still fairly close to Los Angeles (if that is your aim for the night). Not to mention less smog as the whole SoCal area goes. Or perhaps consider a place somewhere between San Diego and Los Angeles.


On Recording Show Keynotes and Events:
The CGExpo organizers really needs to grow in this area. Volunteer and happenstance efforts in this area (such as the recording of the Nolan Bushnell keynote) are great to have as a backup means for obtaining a historical preservation of these events. However, the CGExpo organizers should really close the flap on their Long Johns on this issue. Get a professional recording person to come in and do it. Then resell the recordings. At the show and on the CGExpo website.

Recording were done for CGExpo 2002 (even though mine were never sent to me). Have some professional come in and do it. If a professional can't be arranged, then ask the facility (hotel or otherwise) to do it. If the facility can't do it, then arrange for compensation for an attendee / volunteer to do this. Plugging in an XLR jack to a Teac tape / Sony MD / Laptop is not rocket science. More could be done to take the effort all the way through to doing video recordings.

**** I think the first effort on the web camera by the D.P. guys was excellent!!! Moving to a new venue will only help this idea out by providing for a better Internet access on the whole. Good job guys!

After the show I went up to the manager for the Plaza and made a serious suggestion (or three) that Internet access for the hotel in general should be improved if they wanted to attract a more modern guest as well as modern events. I did this only as a guest so no worries CGExpo crew. Then manager admitted to this need for modernization even if he was unable to do more than send the request up the management food chain.


On the Alumni Dinner::
The CGExpo organizers must pull out the bug from their butt on this one. Really guys, get a clue. The Alumni dinner is potentially the biggest money maker besides the entrance fee. The dinner may greater than table fee income. It is also one of the big five items to do at the show. An item that has been unavailable to the average attendee. For the record I class these items as the 1)The Show Floor / Museum, 2)The Keynotes, 3)The Trade / Auction Night, 4)The Alumni Dinner, 5)The other Attendees. Please note the order does note mean anything for importance. They are all equally important.

And as for the all us gamers, do you really think that we will loose it and gush all over every famous founder, designer, coder, and super-fan. at the dinner? I think the dinner attendees will be good, well-behaved people there to enjoy dinner with friends as well as enjoy the awards ceremony. And after the dinner is over if no post dinner autograph session is allotted, I am sure the dinner attendees will honor the request and disperse. As evidence I point to the fact that at the end of the Nolan Bushnell keynote there was an official autograph/photo session. I think the attendees honored the time period and dispersed after the whole seesion was over.

I would hazard a guess that the awards recipients themselves would recognize the dinner attendees are the real people enjoying the products for which their awards are given. Not the two-second, cheat-code, game players that make up some of today's gaming community. The accompanying applause should mean that much more to them as well.


On Marketing:
The CGExpo organizers must become more adept at marketing on the whole. Now I realize that CGExpo is run and attended by a huge base of truly dedicated gamers from the past and the present. However, growth to the 5000-10000 attendee arena should be accomanpnied by a continuous effort during the year not only to organize the facility and content, but to push the show as a whole to multiple areas.

Marketing to areas such are the greater gaming and computing field. G4 coverage was, and is, cool. Local and national news. Marketing by the convention facility itself. And as mentioned above, perhaps co-marketing by other organizations wishing to provide news on the event itself. Such as travel agents.


Disclaimer: I make these comments only as a show attendee. I am not aware of all of the efforts by the CGExpo organizers. My comments are not meant to be acidic, only a helpful catalyst towards change and the betterment of future CGExpo events.

I know the CGExpo organizers are only human with real lives to attend to. I am certainly no god myself and until I move to the UK no clone is possible to take up the slack on the other stuff I also have going.

**** I heartily applaud their past and current efforts to make CGExpo the one of the best classic gaming shows to be found anywhere. ****


No matter where the show is held I will be there with the Vectrex Museum items I have to take next year. Well, anywhere west of the Mississippi to the US west coast that is.

I will now remove my soapbox :-)

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

there were a few this year causing problems at the alumni dinner (who were told to leave the dinner area not once but twice).
I must've missed this - and I was there! A friend of mine (and not even really someone "into" the hobby) dropped by, but I quickly escorted him away from the dinner area (I think Joe got a chuckle out of me hustling my friend outta there). Other than that, I didn't notice any problems. Then again, I started talking to folks pretty early, so it wasn't until my buddy called my name from outside the dinner area that I even paid much attention to the entrance. :)

FYI, if anyone's wondering why I was there, it was by invitation, and the invitation was a complete surprise to me, certainly not something that I bugged anyone about. The other non-CGE-organizer/setup-crew guest I was aware of was l_lamb, who won the contest that was held here. I only found out about the alumni dinner invite a week or so ahead of the trip. But from my perspective "on the inside," it was kinda cool being a fly on the wall as all of the people caught up with each other, cracking jokes at each other and generally having a good time. I don't think that'd be possible with a ton of other people there...so I'm gonna side with Scott on this one.

Still, a little story that exemplifies how "loose" the dinner is: Sean Kelly's doing the wind-up to an award to be given to the designers of Utopia, a game Sean said introduced him to his future wife. Anyway, about the time Sean is saying this, something along the lines of "and without it, I probably never would have met the woman I married, and that game is...", from my table, Dan Kramer bellows out "BEAT 'EM AND EAT 'EM!!!" LOL LOL

Well, okay, that's Dan we're talking about. He'd probably be okay doing that in a crowded room. Dunno about the other alumni though. :-D

[digitalpress]

This all happened while you were inside, Earl.

I won't elaborate unless I'm "called out" on it. The person who made a nuisance of himself that night was a nuisance on several occasions during the weekend. I've been biting my tongue ever since.

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

Well, I did show up. Surely that was sinister enough for everyone! LOL

[Lady Jaye]

Here's my 2 cents: I'm all for CGE moving out of Vegas. Let's say for a second that it's set in, say, San Jose or San Francisco. That'd suit me fine. First of all, Vegas is one of the worst spots for me to go to. It takes forever by plane (there aren't any direct flights from Montreal to Vegas) and it's awfully expensive (and Vegas just isn't appealing to me). Therefore, flying to the west coast wouldn't be much more expensive (if it even is more expensive at all) and it'd definitely be faster.

Secondly, I've never been to the lower west coast before (I've been to Vancouver and Oregon, but not souther than that). And I have some in-laws in the Bay Area (Steve's uncle Dave lives there). So I'd kill two birds with one stone. And depending on Steve's work situation next year, maybe I could even take my 2-week vacation at once and do a Vancouver/Bay Area trip (my dad's family lives in Vancouver).

Besides, even if it moved to, say, Texas or Chicago or wherever, it'd be better for me than Vegas because of the traveling part and because I'd rather visit another city than Vegas (except for Jersey City).

[MarioAllStar2600]

Just Wondering. Will there be another contest to win a chance at the ALumni dinner. I think that would be cool, but not if you guys are having problems with people. Ps- Make the contest only for people under 5 foot 1! :P

[MarioAllStar2600]

Just Playin, forgot to put it in and you can't edit your post.

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

If I left my shoes off, I could still qualify. LOL

[Slipdeath]

i say l.a.!!