The hypocrisy of 'reproductions'

[Tanooki]

One thing that has really fascinated me is the warez culture that has seeped into the classic gaming hobby and how it did it. Since the times of the famicom there have been pirates making multicarts or converting games from one format to another for the masses on the cheap (like FDS SMB2j made into a Famicom cart.) In more recent years with the flourishing of rom availability and the ever cheaper point of entry into making chop shop boards, new boards, shells and labels the word reproduction as become the new love word for piracy to feel better about it. You will find people all over ebay and places like NintendoAge among others shoveling games with stolen translations, peddling prototypes, and pulling games from other regions maybe even in english and moving those too. The true and only real reproductions are few and far between such as what Piko did with his licensing of Super Noah's Ark among others, and he's caught flack from collectors because he's supposedly polluting the pond and ruining the value of the original.

Somehow it seems to have become the accepted culture of the NTSC-U region to be perfectly ok with shitting in everyone else's backyard but its own. There seems to be a pretty pushy, threatening and verbally harassing environment if you try and take a game from our region and make a dupe, and there even has been one equally so of trying to take a high dollar US title and make it PAL (Earthbound.) Yet if someone will take a PAL game like Terranigma, or use a stolen translation for Secret of Mana 2 or Gimmick and shove it on a US board with a new label, somehow this is doing a public service and is very welcome. I personally don't understand it on why it's ok to do it depending where the game came from other than it's all about the benjamins and nothing more.

Personally I'd love an infinitelives board put to use and get a copy of Little Samson or Aerofighters as I love those games, but I can't and won't attempt to afford hundreds for some ROM on an old board which is silly. Some will tell you to buy a piracy device to load the ROMS which is pretty ironic. Ask at certain collector sites, that'll get you a ban because you're instantly evil for peddling bogus goods and making deceiving carts and labels that can confuse people who don't know better. But make something from any old Japanese or PAL title and it's kosher. Pure hypocrisy in my book and nothing more than that.

[8-Bit Archeology]

I wasnt a big fan of any game that is not an original release. Then I found out that someone translated Labyrinth for the nes and put a gorgeous label on it.

I bought it and enjoy it a lot.

My biggest thing is I HATE people who try to sell convincing bootlegs as originals for original prices. The most common right now is the Pokemon gba games and Cheetah Men 2 sealed for nes.

Its the same in the coin collecting world. All these fakes are beeing put to auction a little below average price as a buy it now, hoping someone wont read or notice the fine print and buy it on an impulse.

Im fine with translations. I myself just dont burn disks or use emulators. Its not my thing.

I do look forward to getting a few homebrews like the 2 zelda titles modded for nes. Or mother 3 for gba.

Basically, I dont care what others do with retro stuff as long as no one is trying to scam me. It doesnt hurt developers as they have long since made their money on these games.

Also a word I avoid like the plague.

COPY

I hate that word as it is always misused in the gaming world. Instead of saying I have 3 mario land 2 games, youll hear I have 3 copies of mario land 2.

[Flojomojo]

reproduction = bootleg = copy = counterfeit

Personally, I don't see the appeal of wrapping a 100K ROM in a mess of plastic, ESPECIALLY if you're selling it to an "enthusiast."

[Rickstilwell1]

To me it just looks like a game of pretending these games came out in your country when they really didn't. Functionally you can play all the translations on a flash cart or emulator, but some people just like to pretend the game came out in physical form in that format. Some people feel weird about holes in series. Like they want to put a faked US cart of Final Fantasy V in between their Final Fantasy II and III carts on Super Nintendo. I would say reproductions are just a novelty item.

Counterfeits of existing games are mainly bad because they make it harder to tell the difference between them and the originals. I don't care if a bunch of repros that are made with newly manufactured shells causes the price of the original to go down though. I would rather ALL games be cheap and have as little value as possible. I buy games to enjoy their presence and play or display them. Not to make them a monetary investment. I want all originals though whenever possible but some people would actually be ok with fakes if they bought them just to play them. They just need to make the fakes easily distinguishable from the real deal so people who want one or the other can easily make their choice and also not price them as high.

Repro cartridges and clone consoles should really go hand in hand.

What I don't like is the process of people sacrificing existing games to make their repros. Everyone should be doing what Retrozone does and make their own shells. Leave the cheap games alone for people who want to buy cheap games and actually play them as they are. One of these days every sports title is going to be $50 each because they'll all be used up to make repros. Some of those sports games are actually pretty good. WTF are you cutting up a really good game like Kirby's Adventure? What is wrong with you? lol


Oh yeah and you also have to learn to not care about any flack anyone gives you for what you think. I could care less about what Tanooki here thinks whether I'm on their side or on the other side. I have my own opinion and I would feel no less about it if the OP here disagrees with my opinion. That's how the OP needs to feel about people at NA. Use my care less of you as a template for a care less of them and tell 'em I sent ya cause I'm a member there too. Then I'll have only two letters to give them if they message me: Capital F, Capital U lol.

[Tanooki]

I don't hold you being a member of that collectors site against you, you're fine. I pretty much agree with your thread and I detest chop shop games. The carts that I do have aside from a pair of SNES games (one which is unavoidable being starfox2) are all new parts entirely. I'd be happy too if the values of the games cratered back to where they were just 5 years ago a well. I just don't like the hypocrisy of being ok with some warez(repros) and not others just because of the region.

I've got 3 retrozone games and 2 new parts GBA titles as well, all fun but as you said, they're novelties.

[Richter Belmount]

I think that they are a double edged sword in the market. Its probably better if people buy flash memory carts to play games on their system that never got released in their country and language , but sometimes its nice to have the convience of a repro cart granted if its not to expensive I have a star ocean , sweet home and ff 3 nes cart myself. But yeah the dubious stuff is making repros of things that were originally released in the states. Like if you go to reddit/r/snes so many people get dupped into purchasing fake earthbounds thats its hilarious and sad at the same time. They are a good service for titles that never got released its good for playing purpose but I understand where your coming from I dont think they should be treated like collector items at all. Its like purchasing a original vhs tape over a bootleg copy of the original released tape.

[Gameguy]

Like if you go to reddit/r/snes so many people get dupped into purchasing fake earthbounds thats its hilarious and sad at the same time.
Or buying "complete" copies of games that were never sold with boxes originally. I remember seeing an auction for a "complete" copy of Super Mario All-Stars+Super Mario World ending past $200 on ebay when you can buy the new boxes directly for just $15.

It's why I'm not fully for reproduction boxes. It's easy to get duped unless you really do a lot of research to know what's real and what never got a legit release. At least it's easy to know with items that never were made but stuff like replacement labels are just too difficult to detect unless you're seeing it in person.

If you really want to play a game on a console get a flash cart/disk copier or use CD-Rs. No reason to buy bootlegs unless they're cheap, and really just something of interest to display.

[badinsults]

The thing that really gets me about reproductions is that the people making them have a complete disregard for the makers of translation patches. Most of the people who made the translations explicitly state that their work is not to be bundled with a legit copy of the game, patched or not. They also explicitly state that no one should sell their work. Another problem is that a lot of repro makers cannibalize other games to make them, which is completely unnecessary now that homebrew lockout chips exist. Some of the makers of patches have attempted to shut down the repro makers, but there are simply too many to deal with.

Besides, most reproductions are completely unnecessary with the advent of flash carts.

[Tanooki]

Lots of good points badinsults. I cant stand when someone chop shops a game. The one lately Ive seen most common is killing Return of the Joker for Gimmick since that game cant take another board and the one sunsoft batman game isnt exactly mass produced like a mega man game or something. I never much liked stealing others translation work either given the time involved as its not the same as the old dead game as its recent. People making such things should give a kick back to each copy sold to the person or group who did the labor.

[Richter Belmount]

Well of course who approves of them chopping a perfectly good original game for a different one? I guess I dont mind if its like retrousb selling tales of phantasia and star ocean boards/carts they made themselves or people without sacrificing something else. I hope Watermelon team and super fighter team produces new stock cause I love their work Pier Solar , Nightmare Busters etc.

[megasdkirby]

The one lately Ive seen most common is killing Return of the Joker for Gimmick since that game cant take another board and the one sunsoft batman game isnt exactly mass produced like a mega man game or something.

Ok, now this angers me. I know I may be biased since I personally loved Return of the Joker, but to basically kill the game in order to put another ROM is just damn wrong. The game isn't all that easy to come across to begin with, and now I hear this. Simply fucking incredible.

I don't mind a reproduction of a unreleased prototype, but like badinsults stated, there is simply no need to butcher a cart if anyone can play it through flash carts. At least those who wish to release these repros should do their own chipset and board.

This really pisses me off.

[Ozzy_98]

I never much liked stealing others translation work either given the time involved as its not the same as the old dead game as its recent. People making such things should give a kick back to each copy sold to the person or group who did the labor.

No one making carts is making money off it, so there isn't exactly much to share. $25 for 30-60 mins of burning and putting together plus printing supplies is a heck of a deal, and the ones who want more don't stay in business long, or offer other treats. And finding some groups is a pain if they're even still around. And still others (Nightwolve), I wouldn't give that bastard anything. He did his projects just to show off and be a bigshot. Not that I'm bitter or dislike that guy, ooh noes, not me.

As for eating carts, that's bugged me, same with moding old hardware to add better video. If it's reversible though that's different, and reproductions ARE reversible, I just with more people would start velcroing or taping the old roms into the cart so they can be resoldered on later if need-be.

[Gentlegamer]

Speaking of Batman Return of the Joker, there is a Q&A thread at Famicom World with David Siller, former VP of Product Development for Sun Denshi in the US also known as SUNSOFT.

He explains the origin of that Batman game, and why the Dark Knight is using a weapon.

http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=10775.0

[Tanooki]

I'm not a fan of old cart murder either and have called it chop shopping a game for awhile now. I'm ok if it's new parts, almost anything I have is that, but admittedly I do have a murdered stunt race turned Star Fox 2, but what are you going to do, there's no reproduction FX chip out there I'm aware of other than some day the SD2SNES whenever they figure out how to get that to go on their FPGA chip they're using. Yet, given that thing costs like $250 that's no really worth it just for Starfox 2 either.

That Batman ROTJ mess has gone on for a long time well before retrousb or infinitelives printed their own boards and it was found using various sources to be the only US cart with a specific set of chips to support is, so that somewhat uncommon game got greased to make Gimmick carts. It sucks, but when people have played games jamming the price of it up into the hundreds for a loose cart (famicom) I can't say I'm all that surprised.

I know people don't make a killing off the carts, at least not in theory. Some do though who just peddle them as just another game on ebay because there if someone doesn't clearly state the obvious they go for a lot more money than $25~ as I've seen SNES games top out like double to triple that or more and that's more than enough profit motivation right there. I get someone can hate or like this group/person or that, but I still find it dirty not to send a kickback even if it's a lousy buck to them if they're able to be found but that's just me.


That stuff from the ex-Sunsoft employee is pretty interesting as a mix of some really interesting inside stories and the known BS that Nintendo pulled contrasted into it.

[Gameguy]

Speaking of Batman Return of the Joker, there is a Q&A thread at Famicom World with David Siller, former VP of Product Development for Sun Denshi in the US also known as SUNSOFT.

He explains the origin of that Batman game, and why the Dark Knight is using a weapon.

http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=10775.0


That stuff from the ex-Sunsoft employee is pretty interesting as a mix of some really interesting inside stories and the known BS that Nintendo pulled contrasted into it.
It's interesting, but I'm not sure if his accounts are 100% accurate. Mainly because I noticed something he said.


Aero never did make it to a Nintendo platform until I redeveloped it years later with Atomic Planet for the Gameboy Advance system.
Did he forget that Aero 1 and 2 were released on the Super Nintendo? He created the concept of the game and worked on it first hand, even owning the rights to the property. I can't understand how he could forget what platforms his game was released on when he apparently remembers so much else in great detail.

[Edmond Dantes]

Speaking of Batman Return of the Joker, there is a Q&A thread at Famicom World with David Siller, former VP of Product Development for Sun Denshi in the US also known as SUNSOFT.

He explains the origin of that Batman game, and why the Dark Knight is using a weapon.

http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=10775.0

I just read up on that, and I noticed something odd.

He claims Aero the Acro-Bat "never appeared on a Nintendo platform until the GBA" Umm... bullshit? Both the games and the Zero spinoff appeared on SNES, in fact it was even hyped that the SNES Aero 1 had a new mode-7 special stage. These are some of the most common games for the platform so don't tell me they don't exist.

If anyone is a member of that forum can you please ask dude about that?

[Gentlegamer]

I brought up the Aero discrepancy, we'll see what he replies.

[Edmond Dantes]

Unfortunately it looks like the question is gonna get buried... but we'll see what happens.

Hope he's even still there. It's possible that he thought Aero was a Genesis exclusive but there was a last-minute decision he wasn't aware of to put it on the SNES. (I kinda feel the Genesis version is superior personally).

[Tanooki]

Perhaps just bring it up another time until it's answered. I think it's a good question.

[Daria]

The thing that really gets me about reproductions is that the people making them have a complete disregard for the makers of translation patches. Most of the people who made the translations explicitly state that their work is not to be bundled with a legit copy of the game, patched or not. They also explicitly state that no one should sell their work.

This x1000

Translations don't materialize out of thin air.

[SparTonberry]

Unfortunately it looks like the question is gonna get buried... but we'll see what happens.

Hope he's even still there. It's possible that he thought Aero was a Genesis exclusive but there was a last-minute decision he wasn't aware of to put it on the SNES. (I kinda feel the Genesis version is superior personally).

It's possible he could have forgotten. It sounds like he designed the game but then it got passed off to another developer to get finished.

[Kitsune Sniper]

The thing that really gets me about reproductions is that the people making them have a complete disregard for the makers of translation patches. Most of the people who made the translations explicitly state that their work is not to be bundled with a legit copy of the game, patched or not. They also explicitly state that no one should sell their work. Another problem is that a lot of repro makers cannibalize other games to make them, which is completely unnecessary now that homebrew lockout chips exist. Some of the makers of patches have attempted to shut down the repro makers, but there are simply too many to deal with.

Besides, most reproductions are completely unnecessary with the advent of flash carts.

I've actually said at my website to not buy those goddamn repro carts, just buy a flash cart instead. It's cheaper, safer, and no carts have to die. Or just use an emulator! But nope. Repro creators who create carts out of translations even when we ask people to not do it are scum and deserve everything bad that comes their way.

[Tanooki]

You know if I recall right Piko and I were talking when he ran retro quest games for repro bootlegs and we talked about the translation stuff, and he was actively trying to track down the owners of various translations to offer them a cut if he made the titles as he felt it dirty to just steal the work. I wish they all thought that way and actively did it.

[Ozzy_98]

This is where I saw something that other people blow out of proportion and start flaming me because of something they misunderstand and can't be bothered to ask me to explain what I mean. But after being on IRC in emulation channels since nes emulator icons had testicals on them, being a huge Ys fan and PCE fan in general, and being in the PC-Engine Dev scene for a while, I've ran into a lot of translators. And while I love the work they do, helping people play games they might never be able to, a lot of them sure are over protective of "their work", and seem to ignore "their work" is breaking other people's rights and copyrights. They have no actual rights to the translations, it's a derivatives work, and so would be owned by the original copyright owners in most cases, depending on what country and judge you got. Everyone who translates a game should know they're breaking copyright law and do not own the final product; you can't translate harry potter to pig latin and claim it's your work. Sure you did work making it, but you have no legal rights to the final product.

That said, THANK GOD (aka aeon genesis) I CAN NOW PLAY Ys 5 IN ENGLISH! I've been thinking about getting a repo of it, but I can't make my own snes repo so I'd need someone to do it and would have to make sure they desolder the roms, not clip the pins like a lazy bastard.

[Tanooki]

Good argument and that is true, it is a derivative work and they don't own it just because they translated it and some really are very uptight about ownership of something they really don't. I mean I get the attachment given the hours involved but you really need to have a certain expectation going into it too.

By the way which network (irc) were you on and what channel in the 90s? I was in the efnet/#emu for a time, part of it as an op too. Those were fun days when all that development was going on.

[Daria]

This is where I saw something that other people blow out of proportion and start flaming me because of something they misunderstand and can't be bothered to ask me to explain what I mean. But after being on IRC in emulation channels since nes emulator icons had testicals on them, being a huge Ys fan and PCE fan in general, and being in the PC-Engine Dev scene for a while, I've ran into a lot of translators. And while I love the work they do, helping people play games they might never be able to, a lot of them sure are over protective of "their work", and seem to ignore "their work" is breaking other people's rights and copyrights. They have no actual rights to the translations, it's a derivatives work, and so would be owned by the original copyright owners in most cases, depending on what country and judge you got. Everyone who translates a game should know they're breaking copyright law and do not own the final product; you can't translate harry potter to pig latin and claim it's your work. Sure you did work making it, but you have no legal rights to the final product.

That said, THANK GOD (aka aeon genesis) I CAN NOW PLAY Ys 5 IN ENGLISH! I've been thinking about getting a repo of it, but I can't make my own snes repo so I'd need someone to do it and would have to make sure they desolder the roms, not clip the pins like a lazy bastard.

By your reasoning, if you liked a fan produced star wars painting you would feel morally justified to distribute prints for profit without the artist's consent simply because it's a derivative work? Translators don't owe you shit dude; they may not have legal rights to sell their work but that doesn't mean it's a-ok for everyone else to do it in their stead. Stop being a self entitled ass-hat and buy a damn flashcart.

[Ozzy_98]

By the way which network (irc) were you on and what channel in the 90s? I was in the efnet/#emu for a time, part of it as an op too. Those were fun days when all that development was going on.

Dalnet in #roms mostly. I show up in #roms-isos on efnet from time to time. #roms broke around 2002-2003 I think, we all split up, many of us moving to roms-isos after wondering around.



By your reasoning, if you liked a fan produced star wars painting you would feel morally justified to distribute prints for profit without the artist's consent simply because it's a derivative work? Translators don't owe you shit dude; they may not have legal rights to sell their work but that doesn't mean it's a-ok for everyone else to do it in their stead. Stop being a self entitled ass-hat and buy a damn flashcart.

Umm, no, that would be idiotic, and that is not my reasoning at all. You made way too many leaps of logic between what I said, and what you think I said. I never even said anything about selling carts. If you remember where I started my post with the part that said "This is where I saw something that other people blow out of proportion and start flaming me because of something they misunderstand and can't be bothered to ask me to explain what I mean" (Saw? Nice typo). That's where normal, nice people would stop and re-read what I said, and maybe ask questions before calling me a self entitled ass-hat. I never, EVER, mentioned anything about selling repos. Stop putting words in my mouth, and if you can't spend the whole 30 seconds it takes to ask someone to explain their stance rather than call them an ass-hat, we're really not going to get along very well.

Why would you think I think translators owe me anything? And where did you get where I said it's ok for people to sell their work, it's not. And I said I was into emulation for ages, I don't need a flash cart, I'd just use emulators like I always have for years. All I meant was, people who make translations and want them used only certain ways need to keep in mind they're doing the EXACT same thing to the copyright owners they do not want done to themselves. Most have tact about it though and don't cross lines, others charge for beta releases of Ys 4 and make websites talking about the evil of xseed while they have nervous breakdowns talking about how bad Ys fans are.

btw, I'm betting if you wrote more, you would call me a kid or some crap too, right? Trust me, I'm not what you think, and I didn't write what you think I did. So please, like I said in the post, if you think I said something you dislike, before calling me an ass-hat, why not ask me to clarify like a decent person.

And yes, I rambled on just cause I like typing ass-hat over and over.

[Gentlegamer]

All "intellectual property" is a legal fiction. There is no ethical or moral harm in copying anything. IP law exists to encourage the production of innovations in the arts and sciences to flow into the public domain.

[Edmond Dantes]

They have no actual rights to the translations, it's a derivatives work, and so would be owned by the original copyright owners in most cases, depending on what country and judge you got. Everyone who translates a game should know they're breaking copyright law and do not own the final product; you can't translate harry potter to pig latin and claim it's your work. Sure you did work making it, but you have no legal rights to the final product.

Actually, this is completely wrong. A derivative work can in fact be considered the property of the person who made it, not just the property it's derived from.

Just for some examples:

There were recent re-translations of The Three Musketeers and Count of Monte Cristo. You'll never find these on Project Gutenberg because, surprise, these particular translations are indeed under copyright, even though the original works aren't. Likewise, modern translations of Romance of the Three Kingdoms, The Water Margin, Journey to the West and Dream of the Red Mansions are also copyrighted despite the originals being public domain.

In fact there have been cases of authors being sued because something in their books was too much like a fanfic (Mercedes Lackey was a huge victim of this), and this is why most writers are cautioned to never read fanfiction anymore. Likewise, you ever wonder why Square made their own translation for FF5 on Playstation when fans had already translated the SNES ROM? Because, yes, they could indeed be sued for simply using someone else's translation.

So yes, these fan translators do indeed own the translation.

[Ozzy_98]

In the US, only the changes to a derivative work are copyrightable 1, and translations would not apply. So if FFIV was a fan made translation, they would have protection on "You spoony bard" but not too much else. Per copyright.gov's paper I just posted:

In any case where a copyrighted work is used without
the permission of the copyright owner, copyright protection
will not extend to any part of the work in which such material
has been used unlawfully.

So if you make a derivative work, you MUST have legal right to do so. If you do not have permission, you need fair use. Fan fiction almost never falls into fair use, and translations would never ever fall into fair use. So it would have to pass the 4 pronged test2, and translations would always fail on #3.

The re-translations you mentioned fall into a completely different category. There's no current copyright holder of the original text, so it's public domain. So the translations are wholly owned by their current translators, but only the changes. The copyright does not extend to the whole text, just what the translators did. So anyone can retranslate and enjoy slight copyright protections. The only way their copyright can mean squat though is if they can somehow prove someone used their text, and not the originals, in work. You can't say "They used 'the count of Monte Cristo' in their book, I have copyright to it!" because Le Comte de Monte-Cristo has a 1:1 translation to English. Also, aren't you in that book?

So let's just say some people translated a game, I'd say hypothetically it's Ys IV. Say there's two people working on it, I'll make completely made up names, darkwolve and truce. Say darkwolve was the one who did the code work, he dumped the script, changed fonts, moved code as needed, and inserted the new script. The only things he could have copyright protections on is any code he added, and maybe the font if he made his own. Truce, on the other hand, would have copyright ownership of his version of the script, but it would be unenforceable. Meaning he can sue people, but would lose. They still have to go to court. And while he would always lose, there's not always a win\loss situation. If say a completely made up company, yseed, wanted to use this translation, they could base theirs off of truce's copy, but would have to make 100% sure they don't reuse anything he has copyright for, so wording and any mistranslations. And in the cases where a line can be translated more than one way, you can't use truces lines. If they just dumped it in, what would likely happen is depending on the judge, truce may or may not get a small amount of funds, or most likely, the game would have it's publication stopped. duce, I mean truce, would also be open for a copyright lawsuit. He would completely fail the fair use test on point 4, and would lose his copyrights. To get around all this legal issue, yseed decides it's best just to buy the rights to the derivative, and everyone but darkwolve is happy. darkwolve instead suffers a mental breakdown3

As for fan fiction, if someone wrote a fan fiction where Captn. Picard took a flying carpet and saved the US from terrorists, I'd have some major legal issues trying to publish a book about that. But if I owned the rights to Picard, and had him on a magic carpet, and the fan fiction writer tried to sue me, their work would most likely, depending on the judge, not have enough transformative value for protection on it's own. And while you say authors have been sued over fan fiction, I've not actually been able to find any. Marion Zimmer Bradley had some involvement, but there were never any actual suits in her case.

1. http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf
2 http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107
3 http://www.ysutopia.net/

Edit: Missed where you said a name, Mercedes Lackey, was sued over fanfiction, but I can find no proof of that. Or even rumors of it.

[Bojay1997]

In the US, only the changes to a derivative work are copyrightable 1, and translations would not apply. So if FFIV was a fan made translation, they would have protection on "You spoony bard" but not too much else. Per copyright.gov's paper I just posted:


So if you make a derivative work, you MUST have legal right to do so. If you do not have permission, you need fair use. Fan fiction almost never falls into fair use, and translations would never ever fall into fair use. So it would have to pass the 4 pronged test2, and translations would always fail on #3.

The re-translations you mentioned fall into a completely different category. There's no current copyright holder of the original text, so it's public domain. So the translations are wholly owned by their current translators, but only the changes. The copyright does not extend to the whole text, just what the translators did. So anyone can retranslate and enjoy slight copyright protections. The only way their copyright can mean squat though is if they can somehow prove someone used their text, and not the originals, in work. You can't say "They used 'the count of Monte Cristo' in their book, I have copyright to it!" because Le Comte de Monte-Cristo has a 1:1 translation to English. Also, aren't you in that book?

So let's just say some people translated a game, I'd say hypothetically it's Ys IV. Say there's two people working on it, I'll make completely made up names, darkwolve and truce. Say darkwolve was the one who did the code work, he dumped the script, changed fonts, moved code as needed, and inserted the new script. The only things he could have copyright protections on is any code he added, and maybe the font if he made his own. Truce, on the other hand, would have copyright ownership of his version of the script, but it would be unenforceable. Meaning he can sue people, but would lose. They still have to go to court. And while he would always lose, there's not always a win\loss situation. If say a completely made up company, yseed, wanted to use this translation, they could base theirs off of truce's copy, but would have to make 100% sure they don't reuse anything he has copyright for, so wording and any mistranslations. And in the cases where a line can be translated more than one way, you can't use truces lines. If they just dumped it in, what would likely happen is depending on the judge, truce may or may not get a small amount of funds, or most likely, the game would have it's publication stopped. duce, I mean truce, would also be open for a copyright lawsuit. He would completely fail the fair use test on point 4, and would lose his copyrights. To get around all this legal issue, yseed decides it's best just to buy the rights to the derivative, and everyone but darkwolve is happy. darkwolve instead suffers a mental breakdown3

As for fan fiction, if someone wrote a fan fiction where Captn. Picard took a flying carpet and saved the US from terrorists, I'd have some major legal issues trying to publish a book about that. But if I owned the rights to Picard, and had him on a magic carpet, and the fan fiction writer tried to sue me, their work would most likely, depending on the judge, not have enough transformative value for protection on it's own. And while you say authors have been sued over fan fiction, I've not actually been able to find any. Marion Zimmer Bradley had some involvement, but there were never any actual suits in her case.

1. http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf
2 http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107
3 http://www.ysutopia.net/

Edit: Missed where you said a name, Mercedes Lackey, was sued over fanfiction, but I can find no proof of that. Or even rumors of it.

Actually, translations would be protectable under US copyright law even if the underlying work is not. It's something I run into all the time in my work in television and film as often we distribute product around the world and regional distributors do their own dubbing or subtitling and even though we hold the rights to the copyright on the underlying work, we can't simply reuse that additional work without engaging in a licensing agreement. I've certainly seen my share of litigation around copyright infringement based on unauthorized use of subtitles and dubbing.

[Ozzy_98]

Actually, translations would be protectable under US copyright law even if the underlying work is not. It's something I run into all the time in my work in television and film as often we distribute product around the world and regional distributors do their own dubbing or subtitling and even though we hold the rights to the copyright on the underlying work, we can't simply reuse that additional work without engaging in a licensing agreement. I've certainly seen my share of litigation around copyright infringement based on unauthorized use of subtitles and dubbing. You might have misread what I was saying, it wasn't really all that clear, but we're agreeing. The translations, if done with copyright holders permission, or if done from public domain work, are 100% copyright protected. If the base work is not protected by copyright, the translation has some copyright protections, but someone could make their own translations. In the case of TV, the regional people own the rights to the dubbing and the actually performance. If they made the dubbing without permission, they have no real copyright on it, however, if another company used this pirate dub, it would be one hell of a legal nightmare, and would depend on what mood the judge was in.

It's like classical music, people seem to think if a piece of music if public domain, they can use any classical music they find free. But while the music itself is public domain, the performance is not.

[Melf]

I'm not up to date with all the legal mumbo jumbo, but how would just buying a flash cart be any better than buying a repro cart? Both are used to play the translated ROM on actual hardware, and by purchasing a flash cart, I'm giving someone money in exchange for that ability. If the translator doesn't want people to monetize his translation, shouldn't he be against flash carts too? The seller of the flash cart is making money off my ability to play the translated ROM on actual hardware, just like the repro maker does. The only difference is that I only have to pay for the privilege once with a flash cart versus once for each game with repros. The general principle of paying for the ability to play the translation on actual hardware is still identical.

[Ozzy_98]

Repo's normally kill carts. They have to remove the roms, some people cut them off and may or may not desolder the legs because it's quicker than desoldering the chip and pulling it out. And if they do desolder, most of them toss the poor rom chips. and heck, nes carts have room, you could just tape them inside the case, done. A reversible reproduction (If you're so anal that you think oh noes, non-original solder, seek help).

Also, if someone sells your translation, you may get pulled into legal issues. So saying "Don't sell this" protects you, even if you do not care about repoductions.

Edit: Also, nice name. It is a simple name, as good as any. (See if you get the reference and if I'm right on my guess)

[Daria]

I'm not up to date with all the legal mumbo jumbo, but how would just buying a flash cart be any better than buying a repro cart? Both are used to play the translated ROM on actual hardware, and by purchasing a flash cart, I'm giving someone money in exchange for that ability. If the translator doesn't want people to monetize his translation, shouldn't he be against flash carts too? The seller of the flash cart is making money off my ability to play the translated ROM on actual hardware, just like the repro maker does. The only difference is that I only have to pay for the privilege once with a flash cart versus once for each game with repros. The general principle of paying for the ability to play the translation on actual hardware is still identical.

If I sell you a flashcart, I'm not banking on the fact that you're going to play Star Ocean in english. You can play any game you want to load on the hardware, maybe they're not even copyrighted products, prehaps you're buying the product to play games you've personally developed. I don't know. But if I produce a Star Ocean cart in english I'm directly selling someone else's work. That cart never would have sold in Japanese, what would be the point of buying it over an SFC original? The only thing that makes my cart valuable in the eyes of a buyer is that it's playable in english. A fact that ultimately I had nothing to do with. That's the difference.

[Ozzy_98]

Also, since at least one person completely misunderstood my post, I should say this: I am, in no way, shape, or form, saying it's fine to take someone else's translation patch and sell it in a repo.

I'm just saying it's not right to take someone else's script, and translate it to another language without permission and think of it as something you have legal rights to own. You need permission first.

And I also would have issue with people who make repo's giving money to the translators, but not the programmers and artists who made the original game. But they were also paid to do it, since that was their job, so I'm kinda torn on that issue, it's a gray issue. Grey. One of them. I also have issue with repo makers having money to give away. It should just cover their time and materials. And if they did give money to patch makers, then that kicks any argument of fair use the patch makers held right in it's nuts.

[Daria]

Also, since at least one person completely misunderstood my post, I should say this: I am, in no way, shape, or form, saying it's fine to take someone else's translation patch and sell it in a repo.

I'm just saying it's not right to take someone else's script, and translate it to another language without permission and think of it as something you have legal rights to own. You need permission first.


I don't think anyone actually does that. That's why reproductions are such a problem; translators don't have legal recourse to protest them.

[Ozzy_98]

Yes, they very much do. Look at some of the amazing rants from Nightwolve on his Ys translations with Deuce. And saying "Do not sell this in a cart" implies they have control over it; if they add a please in front of 'do not' it helps a lot. But many translators I've ran into over the years think they own the script and all rights to it, when it's just not that clear cut.

And WHY do they not want their patchs in carts so badly? The only reason I can think of that's valid is the whole destroying other carts is bad (Plus the liability I mentioned before on the off chance a parent company decides to try legal action). Only other reasons I can think of are selfish control reasons, unless I'm missing something.

Edit: I think you may be overestimating repo carts too. WHY should patch translators have the right to sue repo makers? It's not like there's large companies cranking out repos. Sure, some people sell English repos much higher than they should, but good repos are $20-30ish+donor. If I send someone my FF3j famicom cart and they send it back to me with an English cart + return the roms, why does the person who re-wrote someone elses text to English have a say on what type of media I use it on, be it rom\emulator, flash cart, or real board? That's like me saying you're not allowed to read this post on any apple products, or in chrome. You must read it in IE or Firefox. And only on Tuesdays. Now someone selling FF II carts for $75 with no fancy extras is a bit of a different matter, but that's not what I'm talking about.

[Daria]

Yes, they very much do. Look at some of the amazing rants from Nightwolve on his Ys translations with Deuce. And saying "Do not sell this in a cart" implies they have control over it; if they add a please in front of 'do not' it helps a lot. But many translators I've ran into over the years think they own the script and all rights to it, when it's just not that clear cut.

And WHY do they not want their patchs in carts so badly? The only reason I can think of that's valid is the whole destroying other carts is bad (Plus the liability I mentioned before on the off chance a parent company decides to try legal action). Only other reasons I can think of are selfish control reasons, unless I'm missing something.

Selfish control issues? Really? If I spent months working on a project, I don't even care what that project is. I don't think it's selfish to expect that someone else not come along behind me, throw my work on a new format and turn around and sell it for profit. Like I said in my PM, translators do this work for free because they love doing it, and they love seeing other people appreciate the work they do. It's insulting to have someone come along behind you and turn your work into a business for themselves. Fuck niceties, they don't owe you or anyone else a "please", just don't fucking do it because it's a dick thing to do.

Edit: Well I guess I do expect apple not to specifically bundle my post with distributed copies of Safari and advertise the disk as "Read Daria's latest Digitpress posts today!"

Edit: And this comes back around to my point "Don't be an entitled ass-hat". If you want to play FFJ3 on an NES, no translators don't actually care how you get there. But if you want a dedicated cart, make it yourself, get a friend to do it, whatever. But don't support another guy's for profit repro-making service. To suggest that you have a right to play someone else's work in the format you prefer just because you want it that way IS entitlement.

[SparTonberry]

And I also would have issue with people who make repo's giving money to the translators, but not the programmers and artists who made the original game. But they were also paid to do it, since that was their job, so I'm kinda torn on that issue, it's a gray issue. Grey. One of them. I also have issue with repo makers having money to give away. It should just cover their time and materials. And if they did give money to patch makers, then that kicks any argument of fair use the patch makers held right in it's nuts.

Also, if a translation group/individual took money from a repro maker, I don't believe they could longer legally claim their patch was made for non-profit use only to improve their enjoyment of a game they may have already legally purchased (buy an original, dump it, and as long as its still on your shelf you could use th ROM).

[Ozzy_98]

Also, if a translation group/individual took money from a repro maker, I don't believe they could longer legally claim their patch was made for non-profit use only to improve their enjoyment of a game they may have already legally purchased (buy an original, dump it, and as long as its still on your shelf you could use th ROM). Right, even if it was a gift, it still kills any argument. Ys 4 or maybe 7 was going to be translated by Deuce a while ago, but some issues I think in Korea with a lawsuit about a Korean patch killed that project.

Daria, I keep sending you PMs, what the fuck, can you please read what I say and argue points I'm actually saying? Stop pulling shit out of your ass thinking that's what I'm saying. If I'm saying stuff to complex for you, let me know, apparently I need to dumb it down.

-->If you translate someone else's work from Japanese to English, you are taking someone else's work without permission. If you do that, and you try to put stipulations on someone ELSE doing the same to your work, you are a hypocrite. How else do I need to explain this to you<-- This is ALL I'm saying. No more, no less. Next you'll think I'm against translations or rom hacks.

[Ozzy_98]

Since you edited your post after I responded, I'll double post so less confusing:


And this comes back around to my point "Don't be an entitled ass-hat". If you want to play FFJ3 on an NES, no translators don't actually care how you get there. But if you want a dedicated cart, make it yourself, get a friend to do it, whatever. But don't support another guy's for profit repro-making service. To suggest that you have a right to play someone else's work in the format you prefer just because you want it that way IS entitlement. Ok, there's some more leaps of logic here. You seem to have a hate for people who make repos, and seem to be taking it out on me, but oh well. What the hell makes you think I would do it as a for profit? But it's not like I'm just going to send someone a cart and expect them to do the flashing and soldering work for free; that would make me a dick. Never mind cost of eeproms, and label if I get one (especially if die cut).

We're arguing about two different things here. Over and over and over. And over.

[Daria]

Look, I don't know what you're on about. I've replied to every PM you've sent me. And every post I've made in this thread has been a direct reply to something you've said. If you feel I'm not getting the exact meaning out of your posts that you'd like then maybe you shouldn't muddy your argument with half-baked analogies. You stated previously that people always take your argument the wrong way, while I personally don't normally have issues with other people telling me I don't know how to read. Me thinks the breakdown in communication may lie in your court.

I have one issue which I have stated multiple times; don't sell someone else's work. It's a dick move.

Ultimately it's about respect. I'm a lazy asshole that hasn't learned Japanese, it's is entirely thanks to the work of people like Gideon Zhi, NightCrawler, Tomato, D, etc... that I'm now able to play what have turned out to be some of my hands down favorite RPGs. Those guys don't owe me (or anyone else) a damn thing. They could request that I do 100 jumping jacks before applying one of their patches and I wouldn't think any less of them (I wouldn't do it mind you, but I wouldn't mind that they requested it). Your point is that they're hypocrites (NightCrawler specifically) for voicing expectations about how you use their translations because you feel they had no legal right to make the translations in the first place. To which I say, maybe you're the one being a little hypocritical. Again, they do this shit for free in their spare time. What do you do in return? Bitch about about them?

[Daria]

Ok I'm going to break the PM cycle:


My point is it's NOT your work, you stole MY work if I wrote it in English, and when you translated it, you should have known you have no control over it. And if I planned on releasing the book in Spanish, you completely fucked me over. You have no rights to your work, because it's stealing my work without giving me any credit. If you've not guessed by now, I've been tangled up in this shit before, read some on Nightwolve's patch with Deuce for Ys IV. Nightwolve released a beta patch to people who donated to his site, but would not release it as free, then flipped when someone started sharing it for free on IRC. This donate to get it was just another way of selling Famicom's work as his own, and crossed the line of "Oh I'll help the fans play a game they can't" to "Hey look at the size of my ePenis! ME ME ME, it's MINE!".

In the book example, you have no right to the book, so you can not sell it, no one should be able to. You also have no right to put stipulations on it. It's not your work. It's the original author. How am I* the entitled ass-hat, when you're the one stealing other peoples work and claiming it for yourself? (Ok, not really you, but you get my point. I hope)

No one's claiming, for example, that Dynamic-Designs made Mystic Ark. That is 100% an Enix game. But they translated it, released a patch. By strange co-inky-dink Aeon Genesis also released a Mystic Ark translation patch. And the two are not the same, sure the general story is the same, but the script is completely different. That's because translations are creative works, they are more than just Enix's Japanese script babel-fished into English. When you're playing the Aeon Genesis's version you're reading Ian Kelley's words. You're reading his interpretation of Enix's game. Those are his words. Not Enix's, not yours, not mine. His translation is an original work. His original work.

And actually, yes, morally Ian Kelley has the right to ask that other people not sell his work. And apparently in Europe he even has the legal right...


Does copyright subsist in a translation?

Even if you are infringing someone else's copyright or even if you are unlawfully translating someone else's work, your work will itself qualify for protection as an original copyright.

As a translator you have created something original. As long as you have not copied someone else's translation and providing you have not pledged your right to someone else, you still own the copyright.
http://www.cblesius.co.uk/articles/CopyrightAndTheTranslator-WhoOwnsYourTranslations.html


Why literary translators are authors

Copyright is based on the idea of originality: any new expression that is different from existing expressions, is considered the inalienable intellectual property of its author and, as such, enjoys automatic protection. Just like musical or dramatic performances, literary translations are in a double copyright situation: on the one hand there is the copyright of the original author, and on the other the copyright of the translator, who is the author of this particular translation, as distinct from all other possible translations of the same text. This is why the translator enjoys exactly the same legal rights as a writer. It also means that literary translation is not just work for hire, but a form of free expression: when signing a contract with a translator, a publisher is actually commissioning an original work that bears the stamp of its author.

[...]

‘Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author’ (Article 27.2)
http://www.ceatl.eu/translators-rights/legal-status

[Ozzy_98]

Look, I don't know what you're on about. I've replied to every PM you've sent me.

Umm, half of your replies have been just quotes of me, no reply from you. Like the last one:
http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/ozzy19961/daria_zpsaa53cf87.png (http://s1070.photobucket.com/user/ozzy19961/media/daria_zpsaa53cf87.png.html)




And every post I've made in this thread has been a direct reply to something you've said. If you feel I'm not getting the exact meaning out of your posts that you'd like then maybe you shouldn't muddy your argument with half-baked analogies. You stated previously that people always take your argument the wrong way, while I personally don't normally have issues with other people telling me I don't know how to read. Me thinks the breakdown in communication may lie in your court. I didn't say people always take my argument the wrong way. What I stated was sarcasm because fan boys (and girls)\haters love to jump over someone at the slightest hint of disagreement. Same thing happens if I post saying something like "I've been playing more xbox than Nintendo", someone will read that as saying I love xbox and dislike Nintendo. Look at how I said "I'd like a repo of Ys 5 in English" and somehow you assume that means I'm going to buy it from some underground store rather than have someone I know who can do it perform the work for me.



I have one issue which I have stated multiple times; don't sell someone else's work. It's a dick move. And my point is, translation without permission is not "your" work. I am not saying it's ok to sell fan translations, and I'm not saying "repos are good, let's fund dipshits who make fake Little Sampson's".



Ultimately it's about respect. I'm a lazy asshole that hasn't learned Japanese, it's is entirely thanks to the work of people like Gideon Zhi, NightCrawler, Tomato, D, etc... that I'm now able to play what have turned out to be some of my hands down favorite RPGs. Those guys don't owe me (or anyone else) a damn thing. Wrong. They owe the people who made the game. The people who programmed the game and wrote the script they translated, that's who they owe at least a "thank you". Without permission, they have no right to give their translated scripts to anyone.

That does not mean that anyone else can do what they want with the script.


Your point is that they're hypocrites (NightCrawler specifically) for voicing expectations about how you use their translations because you feel they had no legal right to make the translations in the first place. To which I say, maybe you're the one being a little hypocritical. Again, they do this shit for free in their spare time. What do you do in return? Bitch about about them?nightwolve, nightcrawler is a completely different guy. Nightwolve is the guy who charged money for translations (He did not translate, he was the hacker), and got to the point deuce had to threaten liable. http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/ysinterviews/ysinterviews.htm down to the Jeff Nussbaum portion.


That's because translations are creative works, they are more than just Enix's Japanese script babel-fished into English. When you're playing the Aeon Genesis's version you're reading Ian Kelley's words. You're reading his interpretation of Enix's game. Those are his words. Not Enix's, not yours, not mine. His translation is an original work. His original work. And I, and the US courts, disagree with that. He added SOME text, but it's not his fully work. It's based off someone else's work, and he doesn't have permission for it. For your first link, it's someone's BLOG, while I quoted the us copyright department, and mine disagrees with the blog. "Even if you are infringing someone else's copyright or even if you are unlawfully translating someone else's work, your work will itself qualify for protection as an original copyright. " is not true in the US. Once you infringe, you lose the majority of your copyright protection. If you have rights to do the translation, than as everyone else in the thread agrees, it's yours and you own it. If you translate something that does not belong to you, in the US, you can not claim copyright protection. It doesn't mean the owner of the copyright can just take your work and use it however.

And your link to the EU is only about people with permission to make the translations. Again, I'm only saying people without permission to make translations are abusing someone elses work, no matter how much effort it takes them to do it.


And keep in mind, I *LOVE* translations. I just don't like when people think it's their work; if you're reading the Japanese script as you write yours, it's not your work. I'm not bashing anyone who translates, seeing how I've helped before.

Now here's where it personally affects me. Many many moons ago, I was in the demo scene for TG-16\PC-Engine. http://rhwiii.info/consoleroms/ These are my roms, that I programmed. Cowering marked my roms as PD, public domain, as every rom is marked. My roms are *NOT* public domain. You may not do whatever you want to it. However, I know fully well I have no legal right or recourse for them, because I stole most of my graphics. And the music code. And the music. Stole the last one from someone who stole it from mega man II. I was pissed at them being labeled public domain, but it would be hypocritical of me to try to do anything about it; I stole part of it after all.

This thread get much bigger I can make it into a book and see who can translate it for me.

[Richter Belmount]

http://i.imgur.com/HDVe4Ya.jpg

[bb_hood]

I'm not up to date with all the legal mumbo jumbo, but how would just buying a flash cart be any better than buying a repro cart? Both are used to play the translated ROM on actual hardware, and by purchasing a flash cart, I'm giving someone money in exchange for that ability. If the translator doesn't want people to monetize his translation, shouldn't he be against flash carts too? The seller of the flash cart is making money off my ability to play the translated ROM on actual hardware, just like the repro maker does. The only difference is that I only have to pay for the privilege once with a flash cart versus once for each game with repros. The general principle of paying for the ability to play the translation on actual hardware is still identical.

Here is my take on the whole flash cart verses repro cart issue.
First of all, you buy a flash cart you are getting a device that can play almost any games for that one system, including translations, hacks, homebrews. No actual games are sold with the flash cart. Most flashcarts cost 80-150$, soemtimes more.
When you buy a repro, you are paying somebody for one playable game (which can be played off a flash cart). Its like you are paying someone to make you a copy of a game. Repros will cost about 40-50$ and will play one game.
I generally dont think people should be able to sell other people work, which is why I look down on repros. Plus it takes donor carts which is wasteful. Not that I really care if someone wrecks his copy of mario 2, it just seems silly to break an original nintendo product from 1985 to make a hacked together repro that can be played off flash carts.
I think flash carts are a excellent way to play games. I think everybody should be able to enjoy old nes/genesis/snes/atari games without having to own an original or pay for some download.
I think flash carts are an excellent investment while repros are a total waste of money.
Regarding translation patches, I dont quite follow the argument, but I think people should be free to make translation patches, and they can CONSIDER the 'translation' to be their work, but that means shit because they cant really sell it. All they can expect is credit for doing the work. Just because someone translated some japanese game does not give them the right to make money selling that game as if it their work. They should be doing these translations because they are fans or whatever and they should be happy to share their work.

[Daria]

For the record I've sent two empty PMs, and that's because most every other forum I use requires you to hit a button to reply to a PM. DP already has the form for replying open so when I hit the button out of habit it just sends you back your quote. But that has really nothing to do with this topic.

As for the rest of your post, I'm just beating a dead horse at this point. Suffice to say, I disagree with you.

[badinsults]

I'm not up to date with all the legal mumbo jumbo, but how would just buying a flash cart be any better than buying a repro cart? Both are used to play the translated ROM on actual hardware, and by purchasing a flash cart, I'm giving someone money in exchange for that ability. If the translator doesn't want people to monetize his translation, shouldn't he be against flash carts too? The seller of the flash cart is making money off my ability to play the translated ROM on actual hardware, just like the repro maker does. The only difference is that I only have to pay for the privilege once with a flash cart versus once for each game with repros. The general principle of paying for the ability to play the translation on actual hardware is still identical.

I would disagree with this sentiment. The reason that fan translators get upset about reproductions comes down to the fact that they get uneasy if their patches get sold. They don't want to get in legal trouble. It would be difficult to go after a fan translator who just distributes a patch and lets a private person use that patch (with the implicit "you own the cart already" argument). The word "reproduction" is just a nice word for "pirated game". Selling a reproduction is no different than selling a burned disc of a modern game, though most companies don't bother going after them because they are small time operations. The makers of translation patches don't want any negative attention sent their way from game companies through the sale of pirated copies of games.

A flash cart, however, is not explicitly sold with any game on it. You have to put the games (patched or not) on them after you buy them. There is no destruction of carts, nor is there any copyright infringement at sale. Selling a flash cart is 100% legal, and there are people who get them for playing homebrews and for development work. I've played some of the MSU-1 demos on my SD2SNES, for instance. Playing a translation patched game on a flash cart also brings less negative attention to the hacker, which is the main thing they desire.

[Kiddo]

I sympathize with the fan translators that are upset with other people making repro carts to profit off their work without their consent.

I would like to add my own addition to this as someone who helped the Mottzilla Patch for BS Zelda: Sometimes there's way more work to a "fan translation" than simply a script. The BS Zelda games are obviously good examples of this because they essentially port the game code from the non-functional Satellaview to a base SNES to increase compatibility, all while restoring various pieces of data required to play the games again. For a more common-esque example, byuu's Der Langrisser translation also polished up graphcs and fixed several major game bugs. At these points, the lines blur between the work of a "fan translation" and the work of what is more defined as "ROM hacks".

Of course, this probably doesn't matter much to the more greedy repro producers, who will repro every SMW ROM hack that works without giving a cut to any of the hackers (Or, in some cases, even testing to make sure the ROM hack actually DOES work.)


In fact there have been cases of authors being sued because something in their books was too much like a fanfic (Mercedes Lackey was a huge victim of this), and this is why most writers are cautioned to never read fanfiction anymore. Likewise, you ever wonder why Square made their own translation for FF5 on Playstation when fans had already translated the SNES ROM? Because, yes, they could indeed be sued for simply using someone else's translation.

I think it'd be better to cite a more recent example: The English releases of "Monster World IV" that Sega put out on XBLA n' whatnot have a different translation from the 100% finished fan translation that was done for years before then. We will likely see this scenario repeat for Final Fantasy Type-0, which recently got a PSP fan translation just days before PS4/XBox one-ported English versions were announced.

It's also frequently mentioned during people's cries for NoA to support Mother 3 that Nintendo can't just throw the fan translation on Virtual Console. (This in spite of the fact that the translators themselves would actually desire for this outcome.)

For the note of debates of law: video games are an international business, and thus larger corporations apply the broadest strokes in regard to copyright law. The fact that UK law was made explicitly clear in this thread should show why Nintendo and Square would rather re-translate than use a fan translation. (And I wouldn't take modern American law seriously anyway, since nowadays it is practically bought by big corporations, rather than judged for the general interest of the people, so I haven't really bothered reading much more into that, although I'd say a case like "Sony vs. Bleem" would apply just as much logically to fan translations as Bleem does to emulators.)
That being said, I don't think much of that really matters in a clear-cut case of a game translation being essentially used for piracy without consent of the hobby coder who made it for an explicitly different purpose.

Flash Carts vs. Repro carts should be an obvious argument: You're simply not explicitly buying someone else's work with a flash cart. Flash carts are also a way better value for the customer than repros, which seem grossly overpriced in comparison. (Why would you pay $100+ for BS Zelda: Ancient Stone Tablets when you can get a SNES Powerpak or Super Everdrive for cheaper? Even the most expensive cart, the sd2snes, only cost about as much as 4-5 repros.)

[Kitsune Sniper]

I would disagree with this sentiment. The reason that fan translators get upset about reproductions comes down to the fact that they get uneasy if their patches get sold. They don't want to get in legal trouble. It would be difficult to go after a fan translator who just distributes a patch and lets a private person use that patch (with the implicit "you own the cart already" argument). The word "reproduction" is just a nice word for "pirated game". Selling a reproduction is no different than selling a burned disc of a modern game, though most companies don't bother going after them because they are small time operations. The makers of translation patches don't want any negative attention sent their way from game companies through the sale of pirated copies of games.

A flash cart, however, is not explicitly sold with any game on it. You have to put the games (patched or not) on them after you buy them. There is no destruction of carts, nor is there any copyright infringement at sale. Selling a flash cart is 100% legal, and there are people who get them for playing homebrews and for development work. I've played some of the MSU-1 demos on my SD2SNES, for instance. Playing a translation patched game on a flash cart also brings less negative attention to the hacker, which is the main thing they desire.

THANK YOU.

Finally, someone fucking gets it.

[Melf]

If I sell you a flashcart, I'm not banking on the fact that you're going to play Star Ocean in english. You can play any game you want to load on the hardware, maybe they're not even copyrighted products, prehaps you're buying the product to play games you've personally developed. I don't know. But if I produce a Star Ocean cart in english I'm directly selling someone else's work. That cart never would have sold in Japanese, what would be the point of buying it over an SFC original? The only thing that makes my cart valuable in the eyes of a buyer is that it's playable in english. A fact that ultimately I had nothing to do with. That's the difference.

Does anyone who sells flash carts honestly believe that people are not going to play copyrighted work? For most of these products, it's not only implied, it's actually advertised as a feature. Look at the listing for the Genesis Everdrive (http://krikzz.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=50), for example. The first three features listed? It supports the Genesis, 32X, and Master System libraries. The intent of the product is pretty clear there.


To suggest that you have a right to play someone else's work in the format you prefer just because you want it that way IS entitlement.

Aren't flash cards exactly the same thing in this regard, though? Paying someone for the ability to play everyone else's work (ROMs of all types) in this preferred format is less an example of entitlement than doing so on a game-by-game basis? The only difference you're establishing here is that someone is selling you the means to play trademarked work instead of outright selling you the trademark work itself. In terms of your argument of ethics regarding repros, there's ultimately no difference. Facilitating the means to violate copyright is as shady as actually doing it yourself, so again, there's no moral high ground to flash cards in today's consumer market. Everyone knows that people are using them to play ROMs of all types, including those that are copyrighted.


Here is my take on the whole flash cart verses repro cart issue.
First of all, you buy a flash cart you are getting a device that can play almost any games for that one system, including translations, hacks, homebrews. No actual games are sold with the flash cart. Most flashcarts cost 80-150$, soemtimes more.
When you buy a repro, you are paying somebody for one playable game (which can be played off a flash cart). Its like you are paying someone to make you a copy of a game. Repros will cost about 40-50$ and will play one game.
I generally dont think people should be able to sell other people work, which is why I look down on repros. Plus it takes donor carts which is wasteful. Not that I really care if someone wrecks his copy of mario 2, it just seems silly to break an original nintendo product from 1985 to make a hacked together repro that can be played off flash carts.
I think flash carts are a excellent way to play games. I think everybody should be able to enjoy old nes/genesis/snes/atari games without having to own an original or pay for some download.

But if we're arguing intent, how then are flash cards inherently more moral than repros? You're paying someone for the means to play games that are someone else's work. The only difference is that you're paying one person for those means rather than paying for each game individually.


I would disagree with this sentiment. The reason that fan translators get upset about reproductions comes down to the fact that they get uneasy if their patches get sold. They don't want to get in legal trouble. It would be difficult to go after a fan translator who just distributes a patch and lets a private person use that patch (with the implicit "you own the cart already" argument). The word "reproduction" is just a nice word for "pirated game". Selling a reproduction is no different than selling a burned disc of a modern game, though most companies don't bother going after them because they are small time operations. The makers of translation patches don't want any negative attention sent their way from game companies through the sale of pirated copies of games.

A flash cart, however, is not explicitly sold with any game on it. You have to put the games (patched or not) on them after you buy them. There is no destruction of carts, nor is there any copyright infringement at sale. Selling a flash cart is 100% legal, and there are people who get them for playing homebrews and for development work. I've played some of the MSU-1 demos on my SD2SNES, for instance. Playing a translation patched game on a flash cart also brings less negative attention to the hacker, which is the main thing they desire.

Again, I seriously doubt that anyone who sells flash carts doesn't think people are going to play copyrighted ROMs on them, especially when they advertise that feature as a selling point. If we're talking about ethics (and I'm not taking anyone's side, just pointing this out), then facilitating the means to infringe on copyright is as shady as doing it yourself.

[bb_hood]

But if we're arguing intent, how then are flash cards inherently more moral than repros? You're paying someone for the means to play games that are someone else's work. The only difference is that you're paying one person for those means rather than paying for each game individually.


Again, I seriously doubt that anyone who sells flash carts doesn't think people are going to play copyrighted ROMs on them, especially when they advertise that feature as a selling point. If we're talking about ethics (and I'm not taking anyone's side, just pointing this out), then facilitating the means to infringe on copyright is as shady as doing it yourself.

When you buy a repro, its like buying a copied dvd or other copied media. The seller has no right to sell that content.
With flash carts no money is exchanged for the games themselves. Nobody is selling someone elses work. With flash carts its no different than playing them on your computer on an emulator, except you can utilize the original hardware.
So if you have a moral issue with playing roms you dont legally own then stay away from emulators, flash carts, repros, downloading music, anything like that.
I dont think people should have to resort to paying 50-400$ for a single nes game because the only other 'morally legit' option is buying on ebay.
These older roms have been floating around the internet for years and years. People should be able to enjoy them without dropping cash.

[Ozzy_98]

Flash carts would not be a copyright issue, but would fall under DMCA in America still. Side note, it's a misunderstanding that DMCA is an American thing, most of the DMCA came from the WIPO. Most countries have very similar copyright laws (Not the same; every country has to disagree on something) since they're based on the same international treaties (Berne and WIPO). But different countries interpret the laws differently. So two countries may agree, reverse engineering something is bad, but not agree on what reverse engineering really is. No two JUDGES can even agree on laws; if everyone always new the law in black and white terms, there would never be court cases. Everyone could take one look at it and know instantly where it stood.

[Melf]

When you buy a repro, its like buying a copied dvd or other copied media. The seller has no right to sell that content.


I dont think people should have to resort to paying 50-400$ for a single nes game because the only other 'morally legit' option is buying on ebay.
These older roms have been floating around the internet for years and years. People should be able to enjoy them without dropping cash.

See, these two statements are utterly contradictory. Obtaining copyrighted material illegally for free is no better than paying for it.

But, I'm not trying to debate the morality of emulation. I just wanted to point out that flash carts are sold with the often expressed intent of playing copyrighted material, which is only a more roundabout way of piracy than buying a repro cart. No money is exchanged for the games themselves, but you're provided with a vehicle for obtaining ALL of them for free, whereas repros make you pay on a game-by-game basis. The only difference is how much you can acquire for what you pay.

Repro cart = pre-fabricated piracy.
Flash cart = piracy with some assembly required.

I agree with the other concurrent argument in this thread about repro makers not monetizing a translator's work without consent. Legal or not, it's just not cool. But then, if you're making repro carts, consent is not a priority!

[bb_hood]

See, these two statements are utterly contradictory. Obtaining copyrighted material illegally for free is no better than paying for it.

But, I'm not trying to debate the morality of emulation. I just wanted to point out that flash carts are sold with the often expressed intent of playing copyrighted material, which is only a more roundabout way of piracy than buying a repro cart. No money is exchanged for the games themselves, but you're provided with a vehicle for obtaining ALL of them for free, whereas repros make you pay on a game-by-game basis. The only difference is how much you can acquire for what you pay.

Repro cart = pre-fabricated piracy.
Flash cart = piracy with some assembly required.

I agree with the other concurrent argument in this thread about repro makers not monetizing a translator's work without consent. Legal or not, it's just not cool. But then, if you're making repro carts, consent is not a priority!

Well, first of all the vehicle for obtaining the roms is the computer which downloads them from the internet.
Second, you are missing my point. With repros, someone is selling, making profit off someone elses work. That shit pisses people off.
With flash carts, you can simply play roms on your nintendo system as opposed to the computer (which they were downloaded from).
Im not arguing the morality of either, because sure it basically comes down to the use of the roms. My main point is that people selling repros are just taking advantage of people who want to play games that can be downloaded for free.

[Ozzy_98]

So am I'm right in assuming people are talking about places like timewalk, saying they're making profit on repos?

[Melf]

But the fact that flash carts are made to allow you to download those games makes them just as shady, I think. You illegally download those games for free to play on the cart you were sold... with that specific intent. So again, the ease with which they allow you to play ROMs is a major selling point (many list the programming features as "in addition to" being able to play ROMs). So, you're not really more ethical or moral by playing illegally obtained ROMs on a flash cart than you are on repro carts, and in a sense, the flash cart makers are taking advantage of those who own the copyrights to the ROMs that run on their flash carts!

I'm not debating the morals of emulation, as I said. I'm just pointing out that neither option is really a higher road than the other, since the intent of use for both is identical. And I agree that repro makers are taking advantage by selling items that don't belong to them and cost little to obtain. However, I think that the reason there's a market for them is because some people like to have an actual cart and like how it looks on their shelf. That's a debatable point, to be sure, but I think that's a popular rationale.

[Rickstilwell1]

But the fact that flash carts are made to allow you to download those games makes them just as shady, I think. You illegally download those games for free to play on the cart you were sold... with that specific intent. So again, the ease with which they allow you to play ROMs is a major selling point (many list the programming features as "in addition to" being able to play ROMs). So, you're not really more ethical or moral by playing illegally obtained ROMs on a flash cart than you are on repro carts, and in a sense, the flash cart makers are taking advantage of those who own the copyrights to the ROMs that run on their flash carts!

I'm not debating the morals of emulation, as I said. I'm just pointing out that neither option is really a higher road than the other, since the intent of use for both is identical. And I agree that repro makers are taking advantage by selling items that don't belong to them and cost little to obtain. However, I think that the reason there's a market for them is because some people like to have an actual cart and like how it looks on their shelf. That's a debatable point, to be sure, but I think that's a popular rationale.

In other words, you think they should eliminate all CD, DVD and Blu Ray burners from the market because they can be used to burn illegal copies of those formats. A flash cart to homebrews is no different from an unsigned friend's band to your cd burner.

[Ozzy_98]

As one of the "evil people dumping\sharing roms", we never liked being lumped with wearz. While some people were delusional and felt there was a black and white difference between the two, most of us knew it wasn't right or legal to share the roms, but it wasn't on the same level as sharing windows 2K isos. Most of us had rules, no systems\games still in production, stuff like that. The goal was to keep the old games alive, and to let people see games they never would have before, such as Biomechanical Toy, Knights of Valour, Goonies 1, ect. I also fully admit, while many others disagree, that roms of games not being sold DOES still hurt the copyright holder, since it affects their IP if they were to re-release the game. It also HELPS, by creating more word-of-mouth for it, and making more people want to play it. One of those can't win situations.

I mean heck, look at my freakin avatar. http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u486/ozzy19961/000_0052_zps251a6f5a.jpg (http://s1070.photobucket.com/user/ozzy19961/media/000_0052_zps251a6f5a.jpg.html)

[bb_hood]

However, I think that the reason there's a market for them is because some people like to have an actual cart and like how it looks on their shelf. That's a debatable point, to be sure, but I think that's a popular rationale.

Ive seen some pretty shitty looking repros being sold at flea markets. Ive seen the same shitty repros, earthbound zero mainly, being taken and being sold on ebay for over 80$. It boils down to people just cashing in on the whole retro gaming craze & noobs getting taken advantage of. Buying a repro earthbound zero is the same as spending 80$ on a broken astyanax cart.

[Gameguy]

In other words, you think they should eliminate all CD, DVD and Blu Ray burners from the market because they can be used to burn illegal copies of those formats.
I did actually bring this up in some thread long ago, that companies complain about people pirating content yet are still selling the hardware allowing the piracy to happen. What real reasons would people have to own hard drives with 1TB of storage space or higher? Unless they're producing their own video content, it's going to be used to store videos, software, and MP3s which would most likely be pirated.

[Zthun]

I did actually bring this up in some thread long ago, that companies complain about people pirating content yet are still selling the hardware allowing the piracy to happen. What real reasons would people have to own hard drives with 1TB of storage space or higher? Unless they're producing their own video content, it's going to be used to store videos, software, and MP3s which would most likely be pirated.

Games take a lot of space, so 1 TB is reasonable if you want all your games installed to one HD.

[BetaWolf47]

I did actually bring this up in some thread long ago, that companies complain about people pirating content yet are still selling the hardware allowing the piracy to happen. What real reasons would people have to own hard drives with 1TB of storage space or higher? Unless they're producing their own video content, it's going to be used to store videos, software, and MP3s which would most likely be pirated.

Gaming on demand services anyone? I almost completely filled up a 1TB hard drive when I had GameTap.

But really, for people like us who want to experience games on real hardware, what would you have us do? Say I want to play Star Ocean for Super Famicom. Instead of getting a repro, you want us to learn Japanese just so we can buy a legal copy of the Japanese version?

[Tanooki]

As one of the "evil people dumping\sharing roms", we never liked being lumped with wearz. While some people were delusional and felt there was a black and white difference between the two, most of us knew it wasn't right or legal to share the roms, but it wasn't on the same level as sharing windows 2K isos. Most of us had rules, no systems\games still in production, stuff like that. The goal was to keep the old games alive, and to let people see games they never would have before, such as Biomechanical Toy, Knights of Valour, Goonies 1, ect. I also fully admit, while many others disagree, that roms of games not being sold DOES still hurt the copyright holder, since it affects their IP if they were to re-release the game. It also HELPS, by creating more word-of-mouth for it, and making more people want to play it. One of those can't win situations.


I remember that same credo in our network on efnet, and man it was a shit fit between the hardcore warez kids and the old dead system emulator people when that UltraHLE abomination showed up as we ended up having to drop bans and other junk.

[Daria]

Legalities and morality aside, reproductions are expensive. There are currently around about 83 translated SFC RPGs. Personally I have them setup to run on my Wii because I like playing games from my couch. If I wanted to play them on my SNES, a flashcart would set me back like $150 or so. Not a big deal. If I wanted to recreate a SNES RPG collection of reproduction cartridges, at $35 a piece, it would still cost me $2,905 to do so. That's a ridiculous figure for what? Self made collectables? I suppose ultimately collecting games is and of itself a frivolous hobby, but I still don't shell out $35 per cartridge for the real thing. I seriously just don't see the point.

[Tanooki]

If you're just doing it for a game or two it is fine, but otherwise I agree, going after a bunch of bootlegs lied about as reproductions it's just plain stupid. If you're getting into new games or prototypes that can't run off a general flash cart then I see a point. I've got Starfox 2, nothing will run that. I also have Qwak, but I wanted that on a cart even if the ROM is out there and it came from the maker that converted his Amiga game to GBA. Yet I do have something like DQM Caravan Heart GBA with english applied on a new board so I am fine either way but I'm not going to buy up a dozen of those things.

[Melf]

In other words, you think they should eliminate all CD, DVD and Blu Ray burners from the market because they can be used to burn illegal copies of those formats. A flash cart to homebrews is no different from an unsigned friend's band to your cd burner.

Where did I say they should be eliminated? I said more than once that I wasn't judging, simply pointing something out. I made the same point you just did; I just used repros instead of CD burners as examples.

[Az]

My main point is that people selling repros are just taking advantage of people who want to play games that can be downloaded for free.

I don't think that a person making a conscious decision to specifically seek out and pay for a cartridge as being "taken advantage of" by a seller any more than the guy I paid to cut my grass took advantage of me. Nobody that has the means and know-how of doing it themselves is going to voluntarily throw money at someone else to do it.

It seems the largest issue with repros is money, once money starts changing hands some people begin to take issue with that. Websites that rake in ad revenue, charge for a "premium" memberships, or accept donations that host ROMs (or translations, IPS files, ROM tools, whatever), flash cart makers, or other entities that profit in a sideways manner seem to be overlooked and cut more slack far more than a guy in his basement with an EEPROM burner. If you're offended by someone profiting from translations then you should be equally offended by someone profiting off the original work. We shouldn't be any more bothered by a guy selling Mother 3 repros than a factory out of HK selling pallets of Pokemon bootlegs. In fact, we should be more pissed at stuff like that because those are far more likely to be passed of as real and in some situations can be hard to even distinguish as counterfeits. I get my feathers ruffled much more over people intentionally passing fake shit off as being real versus offering a niche product sold to people that know what it is to start with. If someone wants to pay top dollar for some shit cobbled together in a guy's garage and he knows up front exactly what he's buying... whatever floats your boat. I'm sure as collectors we've all bought stuff others would think of as worthless. In any collectible hobby you'll find people that buy paintings, coins, knives, or antiques that are reproductions, and if people want to see out that rather than originals, it's their coin to spend.

While I get the idea of being upset over sac'ed carts it makes zero impact on the hobby as a whole when compared to far more common ways of permanently removing games from circulation. A guy that buys 20 donor carts and then puts 20 repros out has much less impact than say, a collector who buys 50 games and shoves them in his closet for all eternity, a flea market seller who has a dozen sports titles with ridiculous asking prices collecting dust for the past 5 years, or a parent throwing their kids stuff in the garbage after they move out.

[Ozzy_98]

Having the games removed from the hobby mean they still exist, and 50-60 years from now will still be around. But having them chopped up or thrown out means they're gone for good, and wasteful.

[bb_hood]

I don't think that a person making a conscious decision to specifically seek out and pay for a cartridge as being "taken advantage of" by a seller any more than the guy I paid to cut my grass took advantage of me. Nobody that has the means and know-how of doing it themselves is going to voluntarily throw money at someone else to do it.


If you can click copy and paste you can put a rom on a flash cart.
People selling repros are essentially just selling roms, which are free downloads. If you are buying free roms you are throwing money away.

[Ozzy_98]

Most people who buy repos just want the label and physical cart, maybe boxes, ect. If repos were sold as eproms + label for $5-6, I wonder if people would still bitch about "They're making money off others work". It's not like it's something they could make a living off of; if they had real profits they would have moved into the realm of full blown pirate.

[Kiddo]

I don't really understand the idea of buying a repro for labels. But I suppose that's because most of the repros for BS Zeldas have bad/inappropriate labels.

I think there's a case to be made that repro makers will try to price gouge purchasers, and there is documented history of this happening with a BS Zelda repro that ended up on Gamesniped and sold for hundreds of dollars. It was after that that I made it a point to call out eBayers who sell repro carts for ridiculous prices.

[Gentlegamer]

David Siller addressed the Aero on SNES question http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=10775.msg150955#msg150955

[Tanooki]

So he boo boo'd, that's cool. Interesting that it was another case of a Genesis port with minimal effort, never understood that as it didn't make for good SNES titles. Interesting who it was that worked on the GBA releases though.