Anyone here use HDTV's versus CRT's for classic consoles?

[stargate]

I live in a small apartment and I am trying to downsize a bit. I have a 27" Sony CRT that I currently use for my classic consoles, primarily NES, SNES, TG16, but also Atari 2600 and Intellivision when the mood strikes.

I need the space and thinking about giving up on the CRT and just running through my 60" Sony HDTV. But how bad is it really? Any recommended ways to hook up the systems that work better than others? Do you use the settings on your HDTV to stretch the picture and does this work well or completely suck?

I realize I can just experiment myself, but wondering what the folks around here are doing and what experiences they have had. Thanks everyone for any help!

[Leo_A]

Unless someone has the same model HDTV as you do, your experiences may or may not be similar to those posted by someone else, making this a rather pointless task, I'm afraid.

There are almost as many different scaling chips as there are HDTV's it seems, and that's what matters most for classic consoles since you obviously can't send your tv a signal that matches its native resolution while playing something like a Sega Genesis. And each model performs differently, depending on what's sent to it. Someone might get a nice picture on their Intellivision connected via RF to their tv where as your tv's scaling chip might not be able to make heads or tails of it and just not display anything. And in other cases, someone might get a poor picture, while you get a great one but with unacceptable input lag.

Your best bet is to perform some tests yourself. Hook an early 2000's system up via component and check out 480i and 480p games, hook a 1990's era console up via S-Video, hook a late 1980's or early 1990's system up via composite, hook an early system up via RF (Sometimes helps running these through a VCR first which boosts the signal), and see for yourself.

And if your test come back poor for some or most all of this, you have other options like external scalers (From cheap system specific options to $500 models that will do wonders for older material), higher quality video cables like RGB, video modifications like adding S-Video to an Atari 2600, backwards compatibility options (Playstation games look horrible via S-Video from your Playstation? Try them on a PS3 with the system itself handling the scaling), the Retron 5 for classic Nintendo and Sega gaming, etc. Or go fully with emulation with a PC connected to your tv or buy something like an Ouya if you desire a less capable option that has a smaller footprint.

There are undoubtedly a few around here enjoying their classic systems on their modern HDTVs. And if you don't mind spending money and making the occasional compromise, you can get pleasing results for just about everything except light gun games (Which obviously won't work).

[eskobar]

In general, HDTVs don't go along with retro consoles, you can purchase additional hardware to make them look almost as good as an old fashioned CRT TV like the Framemeister XRGB-Mini and get RGB cables in the consoles that support RGB or make some mods to the ones that don't.

You can get a smaller CRT or RGB CRT monitor if you want the best possible picture :)

[Ponyone]

I do. I have a 65 inch 3d vizio. Put it in game mode and run consoles on composite/component. They run and look just fine. No stretching. I don't notice any of the lag ppl talk about with hdtv but if there is any its not noticeable

[ZeroCool]

I got a PS2 on component, looks great. Saturn N64 look alright nothing horrible. Dreamcast isnt so great. Atari Jaguar is not that bad. Ive hooked up a NES on it and it looks better than the Panasonic CRT I have. No jailbar lines at all. Im shocked. Its a 32 inch Philips LCD

[CRTGAMER]

HDCRT WEGA here. ALL non HD and HD consoles display beautiful.

[stargate]

Thanks for the info, everyone. The XRGB-mini looks pretty cool and I think I am going to check out that option.

[theclaw]

Ultimately a TV (or XRGB type device) is only as good as the video it receives. If one uses composite, that's what will be displayed.

[kamakazi5]

For me personally I use my Samsung 67" DLP LED with nothing but composite for all of my systems until PS3/360 and I'm happy with it. Although I will admit that I've never really cared about the look of games, tv, or movies so I may not be the best judge.

[Gameguy]

I would just stick with the CRT and get rid of the HDTV if space became an issue.

[Greg2600]

Simply for convenience, I often use my bedroom's LCD TV. However, I'm a little nuts, so I have SCART RGB on most systems, into a video upscaler, to the TV over HDMI!

[Rickstilwell1]

I have 9 TVs. I use both kinds interchangeably depending on where in my place I feel like sitting. lol

[stargate]

Simply for convenience, I often use my bedroom's LCD TV. However, I'm a little nuts, so I have SCART RGB on most systems, into a video upscaler, to the TV over HDMI!

Do you notice any lag when playing classic systems?

[Greg2600]

No lag, but I have an upscaler that is rated pretty good on 240p signals and lag (DVDO iScan VP50). I'm also not someone who really looks for it either.

[NotoriousReignZ]

scart to hdmi, have had really nice results w/ Sega Saturn & Playstation.

[Eternal Champion]

My Genesis is YPbPr (component) modded, hooked it into my 720p Samsung plasma and 1080p Samsung, both looked like ass - very saturated and off colors. Too low res. I've seen a NES through composite, so it's possible. I said "eff it" and got a cheap CRT with RCA, s-vid and component inputs.
If space is an issue, and you have enough money, then the XRGB is the answer, or the RetroN5.

[Tanooki]

I mainly only use a HDTV, I see almost no value in the CRT anymore because the TV I bought I researched so there wouldn't be an input lag issue. The remaining effect is that first gen of 3D systems (N64 etc) have problems displaying on an off the shelf LCD TV due to tricks the systems used CRTs do to handle some effects and display which the newer can't so things get broken or at worst invisible(just black on black.) With that I still have my sharp NES tv, so the N64 is plugged into it. CRTs are just huge, heavy, the visual quality isn't all that fantastic, even on a higher end non-HD CRT so I see no use for it other than for one console I own and really don't even use.

[ProjectCamaro]

I mainly only use a HDTV, I see almost no value in the CRT anymore because the TV I bought I researched so there wouldn't be an input lag issue. The remaining effect is that first gen of 3D systems (N64 etc) have problems displaying on an off the shelf LCD TV due to tricks the systems used CRTs do to handle some effects and display which the newer can't so things get broken or at worst invisible(just black on black.) With that I still have my sharp NES tv, so the N64 is plugged into it. CRTs are just huge, heavy, the visual quality isn't all that fantastic, even on a higher end non-HD CRT so I see no use for it other than for one console I own and really don't even use.

Ditto

[stargate]

I am now just having trouble determining what cables to get to hook up the xrgb mini to my tv via HDMI. I live in the U.S.

I think I need a SCART cable to hook up the modded for RGB SNES to the XRGB but the connector on the SCART cable does not appear to match the RGB input on the XRGB-Mini so I am not sure what else I need.

What about just getting this?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Super-Nintendo-stereo-XRGB-JP21-lead-FULLY-SHIELDED-GROUNDED-cable-cord-US-SNES-/201087125244

Would this be the only cable that I need to hook it up to the XRGB and then plug the XRGB into my TV via a HDMI cable?

[theclaw]

XRGB includes a Japanese adapter when bought new. If you want to use European cables, that's sold separately.
In short Japan adapted the physical SCART socket with a new pinout and name.

Right that cable is NTSC at the console end, Japanese at the SCART end. It should work using an original XRGB adapter on USA SNES.

[Mangar]

Many high end receivers/amplifiers boast video upscaling. I just bought a house, and hooked up a 65' Plasma on the Wall, with a Denon AVR-X4000. The sound is absolutely amazing, but supposedly their video processor will upscale things similar to an XRGB.... At least if you believe their press release hype. I'm going to test it the next week or so and see how it looks. I'm curious....

I've pretty much gone all emulator nowadays for the classic systems, as it's just the best and most convenient way to play older games. Especially if you have a nice HTPC setup. However, I think there's a certain fun factor of having people over, and popping in an old NES(or whatever) and just playing things with old controllers, old system, etc.. That just can't be matched with emulation.

[Trebuken]

A Retron 5 system would look great on that HDTV. Will not solve your Atari 2600, or TG-16 issues , but it would go a long way.

[Einzelherz]

I've been playing nearly everything on my 42" 1080 Panasonic plasma, but that's because I spend the money earlier this year getting an analog RGB-YUV converter and cables/mods for all/most of my consoles. Of the four you've listed, this isn't the best option though. Maybe there's a good converter out there that works on composite signals though.

The only gripe I have, and it's a small one, is that my tv doesn't like a 240p signal (unless it's from Sega, for some reason) so I get a few lines of curling at the top of my screen. This is because I'm not using a digital upscaler (price in my case, but others would argue lag) so the feed in is the original 240 signal.

Still can't figure out why it doesn't happen with the Genesis and SMS though.

[Tanooki]

A Retron 5 system would look great on that HDTV. Will not solve your Atari 2600, or TG-16 issues , but it would go a long way.

I can attest to that on my 29" LED I have. The clarity, response, the audio, just all of it is crazy good. And check those 2.0betas out the last couple weeks, the features being added for the official 2.0 shortly is nuts. Even the handheld games from the Gameboy family are good solid experiences as well that trumps the official GB Player big time.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

A Retron 5 system would look great on that HDTV. Will not solve your Atari 2600, or TG-16 issues , but it would go a long way.

The solution there is the Ouya. Now that I finally own one, I can say that the Retron5 does a great job most of the time, but the OUya does everything the Retron5 does and in most regards, surpasses it. The Ouya also does far more than the Retron5 with emulation of 2600, C64, PS1, Sega CD, TG-16, CD, Neo-Geo, NGPC and others.

And Ouya's library of android games some of which are absolutely amazing.

If you've got a limited space set up, there's no greater argument for the Ouya. Unlike the rather large Retron5, the Ouya is literally the size of a rubix cube and therefore can be put almost anywhere.

[Trebuken]

The solution there is the Ouya. Now that I finally own one, I can say that the Retron5 does a great job most of the time, but the OUya does everything the Retron5 does and in most regards, surpasses it. The Ouya also does far more than the Retron5 with emulation of 2600, C64, PS1, Sega CD, TG-16, CD, Neo-Geo, NGPC and others.

And Ouya's library of android games some of which are absolutely amazing.

If you've got a limited space set up, there's no greater argument for the Ouya. Unlike the rather large Retron5, the Ouya is literally the size of a rubix cube and therefore can be put almost anywhere.

Certainly true. I just am attached to the physical cartridges with the Retron. Even though the Retron 5 uses emulation it has a more authentic 'console' feel to it as opposed to the Ouya. Ouya is d great option for sure though.

If you went the Ouya route might go even farther and just attach a laptop/PC, add the Hysperspin front-end and have even more options, maybe a little less convenient than the Ouya though.

[Tanooki]

that's kind of my argument. See I have this nice Nexus 7 which is small enough as is, and I have a cable with it so I can just run it through the TV like the Ouya, and then I have a Moga pro for a controller. It negated any useful value of the Ouya so I ditched my interest in it. Either one will due to android introduce some level of slight lag with input especially on emulated old games.

[Arkanoid_Katamari]

I'm realy not crazy about the next gen systems' jump to HD tv's. I really don't care if my PS4 games are in 1080p, I just wanna play my games. And I found it annoying that I had to buy a small HD tv just to play it, while everything else works on my CRT. There's just no justice for those of us who own 15 consoles that they wanna hook up at once. Am I asking for too much?

[Tanooki]

Well the thing is, luddites just aren't going to win. CRT is dead and it's time to move along. I find it more odd you feel that CRT looks better. I'm curious what mental process goes into sitting a 20" CRT and a 20" LCD side by side and feeling the soft fuzzy/blurry quality of 480p and under has a more appealing look.

[RP2A03]

Well the thing is, luddites just aren't going to win. CRT is dead and it's time to move along. I find it more odd you feel that CRT looks better. I'm curious what mental process goes into sitting a 20" CRT and a 20" LCD side by side and feeling the soft fuzzy/blurry quality of 480p and under has a more appealing look.

No sample and hold blur.

[Gameguy]

No sample and hold blur.
I agree there's no blur with CRTs or lag, there's better colours too. Just because it's lower resolution doesn't mean it's blurry. No idea where he got that idea unless he only owned shitty TVs or computer monitors. I also like how durable CRTs are, they last for decades. There are some HD CRTs as well, these look better than plasma or LCDs.

I just like playing Duck Hunt, Lethal Enforcers, various Super Scope games, and other light gun games from that era. None of these are compatible with modern TVs.

[Tron 2.0]

For the older consoles,philips 27 inch CRT and a C64 1702 monitor.Modern ones are hooked up to a HDTV.Still in the future i would like to have a XRBG mini or a older model used.If that ever happens the CRT will be sold or given away.

[Leo_A]

No idea where he got that idea unless he only owned shitty TVs or computer monitors.

His experience with classic consoles on his HDTV is also just about as accurate. I have no doubt that he's happy, but very few will ever be as pleased as he seemingly is just by hooking up their range of old consoles directly up to their modern HDTV. He got pretty lucky, I'd say.

If it were that easy, we'd have threads at every classic tv forum stickied at the top about what the best tv models are rather than the emphasis being on things like aftermarket video modification circuits, external scalers, sticking with SD CRT technology, etc. Most HDTV scaling chips are rather poor for this use, their quality varies greatly depending on the source being sent to it, etc. It's very hit or miss what works well from one set to another, the gist of my original reply in this thread.

It's not all about getting the HDTV with the least input lag (Something that has been greatly eased in recent years as an issue). You could research input lag for months on end and get the one with the best response time, and still find that it's killing the picture quality on many of your classic games, isn't displaying anything at all in other cases, etc.

Stargate, the thread creator, will be well served by going the premium route with an XRGB Mini and his research to hook his systems up to it in the most optimum manner will pay dividends.

[Niku-Sama]

What about hd crt's?
I picked one up dumpster diving the other day, Panasonic "Tau" 32" hd crt. Some animal chewed off the power cord and it's an easy fix

[Leo_A]

Discounting computer monitors, I've never owned an HD CRT (Came close once with a nice Trinitron that was 36" or so before I started taking measurements).

But my impression from following threads like this over the years is that all of those are also fixed resolution displays with scaling chips that have to process any non-conforming signal being input to the tv that's different from the set's native resolution.

So you'll enjoy the benefits of CRT technology like the absence of motion blur, but they can still be problematic for classic consoles since a scaling chip is still involved since you're outputting resolutions like 240p to the tv that obviously won't match. That image processing is where input lag is mostly introduced and is also what matters most where picture quality is concerned since it's the component that is adapting the resolution of your classic console to match the set's native resolution.

Generally though, HD CRT's were high end displays. So that technology has that going for it. And SD support wasn't the afterthought it is today. But the most important aspect for classic gaming on a HDTV is the scaling chip and not all scaling chips are created equal and they all have their strengths and weaknesses, so it's hit or miss even with this style of HDTV.

That's why I urged the thread creator to hook some systems up to his own television and see for himself since the experience I've had or the experience that Tanooki has had don't necessarily reflect what he would experience.

[Tanooki]

Leo/Gameguy I gather I got lucky up front, researched the best in range the second time last March.

Pre-HD I came off a 32" Sony Wega, 100lb beast it was. Before that was a non-flat glad death weight box, a normal RCA or Sony whatever it was 90s television. Once the Wega blew a chip I ended up having this 26" Panasonic Viera LCD up until my kid broke the screen early this year. It had no input lag issues at all, even the guitar hero calibration tolerances were well within CRT levels reading peoples comparisons online and that buy was sheer luck, just a solid 60hz 720p tv. The LED I have now matches or exceeds it, used displaylag.com to find something that'll do pre-HD without the lag and that's how I ended up with my 29" viera. I get equal performance to my CRT I had and still do (Nintendo/Sharp TV) and the clarity of a solid computer monitor/lcd-led screen.

On both of the LCD/LEDs I've had the NES has displayed full screen or near that with about an inch border on the sides and sharp, same with the SNES. The N64 just hates LCD in general due to cheats in doing lighting effect, but display wise the 3D is super sharp but usually due to the mud filter on the thing the 2D stuff looks even softer than a CRT yet due to the lighting I keep it on the CRT.

[RP2A03]

Discounting computer monitors, I've never owned an HD CRT (Came close once with a nice Trinitron that was 36" or so before I started taking measurements).

But my impression from following threads like this over the years is that all of those are also fixed resolution displays with scaling chips that have to process any non-conforming signal being input to the tv that's different from the set's native resolution.

So you'll enjoy the benefits of CRT technology like the absence of motion blur, but they can still be problematic for classic consoles since a scaling chip is still involved since you're outputting resolutions like 240p to the tv that obviously won't match. That image processing is where input lag is mostly introduced and is also what matters most where picture quality is concerned since it's the component that is adapting the resolution of your classic console to match the set's native resolution.

Generally though, HD CRT's were high end displays. So that technology has that going for it. And SD support wasn't the afterthought it is today. But the most important aspect for classic gaming on a HDTV is the scaling chip and not all scaling chips are created equal and they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

That's why I urged the thread creator to hook some systems up to his own television and see for himself since the experience I've had or the experience that Tanooki has had don't necessarily reflect what he would experience.

It is also worth noting that only Sony's XS955 and the XBR960 come close to being able to fully resolve the horizontal resolution.

[Greg2600]

HD CRT's tend to be far too big, plus 3d glasses and light guns won't work on them. IMO, it's wise to keep a 27" Sony Wega CRT around, or similar. Something that takes component input and S-video. I personally don't care for the PVM's, because they are too small. 19 or 20 inches to me doesn't cut it.

[Zap!]

Well the thing is, luddites just aren't going to win. CRT is dead and it's time to move along. I find it more odd you feel that CRT looks better. I'm curious what mental process goes into sitting a 20" CRT and a 20" LCD side by side and feeling the soft fuzzy/blurry quality of 480p and under has a more appealing look.

I find it odd that you don't feel that CRT's look better when playing systems meant for them.

[Tanooki]

I just never was a fan of the image bleed cheapy RF and RCA cables did on the old sets is all. I don't mind the softness so much, it's just that I got lucky with the new TV I have and it has a sharp image with no input lag problems so I get the best of both worlds of good needed response time and a sharp picture.

[Zap!]

I just never was a fan of the image bleed cheapy RF and RCA cables did on the old sets is all. I don't mind the softness so much, it's just that I got lucky with the new TV I have and it has a sharp image with no input lag problems so I get the best of both worlds of good needed response time and a sharp picture.

I don't like a widescreen TV unless I'm playing games meant for them. You either have a stretched out screen (which looks horrible), or blacked out sides, which I find annoying. Playing games on an RGB monitor (1084S maybe?) is my choice.

[theclaw]

Well the thing is, luddites just aren't going to win. CRT is dead and it's time to move along. I find it more odd you feel that CRT looks better. I'm curious what mental process goes into sitting a 20" CRT and a 20" LCD side by side and feeling the soft fuzzy/blurry quality of 480p and under has a more appealing look.

Where s-video or component come in. Composite has flaws inherent to its design, CRTs reduce not remove them.

[YoshiM]

My big problem is the N64. I was wondering if something like this would help?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00B2B9Z20/ref=redir_mdp_mobile?keywords=s%20video%20to%20hdm i&qid=1390016391&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2&tag=viglink20340-20

[Tanooki]

Damn that's an expensive part, but if that could make a N64 display right on a normal modern TV without the issues with failed lighting and shadow effects just being black or the AA being overblown into a blobby mess on certain titles it could be worth it. Sometimes I debate if I should just sell the thing as I never ever use it.

[genesisguy]

At some point we are all going to have to go HDTV. I guess CRT's are just a ticking time bomb at this point.

[YoshiM]

There's a video of some guy doing a test using SVideo on an N64 through an upscaler. They list the upscaler:a Portta PETCSHP and an Innovations N64/Gamecube SVideo cable. Looked fairly clean on the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khTXtxYAXOY&sns=em

[Zap!]

At some point we are all going to have to go HDTV. I guess CRT's are just a ticking time bomb at this point.
No, because parts will always be available, and as retro continues to grow, new CRT's will eventually be made by some company, if they haven't already.

[genesisguy]

No, because parts will always be available, and as retro continues to grow, new CRT's will eventually be made by some company, if they haven't already.

I heard on another forum where there is a similar thread going about the death of retro gaming hardware that CRT's are illegal to make due to the emissions of radon.

[Tanooki]

That video Yoshi has an old link to the part, found one on ebay currently for $40~
http://www.ebay.com/itm/S-Video-Composite-RCA-to-HDMI-Converter-AV-Adapter-R-L-Audio-1080P-Scaler-/181501109334?pt=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item2a424f2456

I'd love to know if this thing could fully make the N64 functional on a modern TV. It drives me nuts having to have it jacked into a stupid CRT because it can't play nice with lighting and shadow effects while other stuff turns into blobs of mud because some games used CRT display cheats to display games. N64 is like the ginger baby of Nintendo systems when it comes to TV as it just gets ugly.

[genesisguy]

I just never was a fan of the image bleed cheapy RF and RCA cables did on the old sets is all. I don't mind the softness so much, it's just that I got lucky with the new TV I have and it has a sharp image with no input lag problems so I get the best of both worlds of good needed response time and a sharp picture.

What kind of TV did you get that has no lag? I need to upgrade.

[Zap!]

I heard on another forum where there is a similar thread going about the death of retro gaming hardware that CRT's are illegal to make due to the emissions of radon.
I haven't heard anything like that before. Illegal where? The US?

[Gameguy]

No, because parts will always be available, and as retro continues to grow, new CRT's will eventually be made by some company, if they haven't already.
Even if some company does manufacture new CRTs they won't be the same high quality as CRTs built during their heyday. Would anybody still spend over $1000 for a new CRT television? Plenty cost triple that amount or more when new if you look at higher end models.

It's the same way with VHS machines, some are still being manufactured and sold new at retail stores today but they're cheaply made to keep costs low. Most people aren't willing to spend over $100-$200 for a new VCR anymore. It's better to get an earlier model from the late 90's or early 2000's and get them serviced if needed.

CRTs can last a long time if not abused. Arcade monitors can get burn in with always playing the same game for years on end, home TVs are better as you'll be playing different games on them or just watching movies or TV which don't have static backgrounds. Plenty of TVs are still working from the 1940's or 1950's, TVs from the 90's could last even longer. It's true about there not being vacuum tubes in modern displays but you can still service modern sets(it's mostly about the capacitors).

[RP2A03]

I heard on another forum where there is a similar thread going about the death of retro gaming hardware that CRT's are illegal to make due to the emissions of radon.

You probably shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet, especially when it doesn't even make sense. CRTs do not emit radon (lol wut), although they do leak an inconsequential amount of radiation.

[Tupin]

The best thing that you could do for 240p stuff is either invest in an upscaler like a Framemeister or go the much cheaper route and get a Sony PVM monitor that has RGB inputs. Most consoles can output or be modded to output it, and for the most part anything pre-PS2 will look its absolute best. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Greg2600]

A company in China attempted to manufacture new CRT's, but it was a financial disaster. Even in China, where materials and labor are cheap, the process was still too expensive given demand. This was actually to supply the arcade industry.

[Gamevet]

Leo/Gameguy I gather I got lucky up front, researched the best in range the second time last March.

Pre-HD I came off a 32" Sony Wega, 100lb beast it was. Before that was a non-flat glad death weight box, a normal RCA or Sony whatever it was 90s television.

I wish my 32" Sony Wega Hi-scan HD-CRT was only 100 pounds. Mine weighs 165 pounds and I pretty much have to dead lift it onto a four wheel dolly to move it around. It has great picture quality for both HD and SD content, so I'd like to keep it around for as long as it will last.