Frustrating or Challenging parts to Games

[Arkanoid_Katamari]

So I hear Pat the NES punk talk about this, and its a good topic for discussion, is parts of games like Mega Man that are just unfair because u will inevitably die no matter what the first time u play it, and he doesn't like the games for that reason.

What do you think?

I personally know exactly what he means, but I'm not sure it really is a large issue for me. I've played a lotta Megaman, and they really are some of the best platformers on the NES. The graphics and music are fantastic, the levels are cool, enemies are cool, boss battles are challenging and interesting, and I just love the sound effect from when u shoot an enemy. But there are parts that you will just die in if u don't know wats coming, like the disappearing blocks and the beams that come across the screen in MM2. It doesn't seem to bother me so much tho cuz of all the other redeeming qualities. It does have a level of fairness cuz u can choose which level to play next, when u have the correct power-up for a boss the boss battles are a cake-walk, and u do have a life bar.

Contra, on the other hand, I don't feel has any of those unfair parts to it. I recently got this one, ik, i never played it as a kid, and I was able to make it to level 6 or 7 the first try ever using the Konami code. So in some ways Contra is more fair that way, but there is no life bar, and the game is still quite hard.

Idk, kinda been rolling around in my head so I thought I'd share my thoughts. I personally don't mind level memorization, if the game is good in other aspects. Plus, with a game like Mega Man, the levels are small enough that they're not that hard to memorize.

[bb_hood]

If you want a game that you can beat on your very first playthrough I suggest you check out something on the sega pico system.
To say mega man games are unfair is like admitting to being a huge wimp. Mega Man games are very beatable and quite frankly are not that hard.

[davidbrit2]

Ice levels.

"Hey, enjoying the game? That's cool; try playing it with shit control now."

[ZeroCool]

Ice levels.

"Hey, enjoying the game? That's cool; try playing it with shit control now."

lol, true

[goldenband]

To say mega man games are unfair is like admitting to being a huge wimp. Mega Man games are very beatable and quite frankly are not that hard.

I don't think Mega Man games are hard at all, since they have unlimited continues and aren't difficult to master. But they're absolutely unfair by design -- if "unfair" means "forcing the player into unforeseeable deaths". It's been too long since I've played through the NES games to remember specific moments, but I beat the first Game Boy game fairly recently, and it absolutely has areas where you have to know what's coming in advance. I specifically remember one spot where you have to freefall through several screens, and if you choose the wrong side of the screen, you're forced onto a bed of spikes (which means instant death).

Similarly, I loathe shooters/shmups that trick you into inescapable, unmarked dead ends. Gradius III does that bigtime, and one stage of Thunder Force II does the same. It basically creates a dynamic where success depends on memorization and time investment, rather than reflexes and intelligence.

On a different note: one of my biggest pet peeves is enemies that instantly respawn at the edge of the screen as soon as you kill them. It tends to suck all the joy and logic out of gameplay to begin with, but the worst is when you've got an unarmed or poorly-armed protagonist, and the enemies are heat-seeking/homing. Then the game is basically saying "Hey, guess what? Instead of trying to craft a fun or memorable experience that rewards creative play and good reflexes, I'm just going to relentlessly hound you until you happen to find the one pattern that'll glitch you through this cluster$#$%." It's a sign of bad and lazy design, and I can't stand it.

Also, if you want to see a showcase of unfair level design and using cheap shots in lieu of thoughtful structure, check out Doom Troopers for Genesis. It's one of the worst offenders I've ever seen.

[kupomogli]

Mega Man is far from unfair by design unless you're talking about Mega Man 9. If you want a massively overrated game that's unfair by design, Super Meat Boy. The game isn't very good imo. The developers added a high jump that is lower and longer with acceleration, but it's a very long distance you can jump. So they just put together levels, didn't matter how poorly placed everything was, because the jump would cover it, so if it was too short, big deal, jump would cover it, too long, jump would cover it, etc. They did put a little effort into the design, but that's it, A LITTLE effort. I guarantee that each level was. Is this completable? Played until one of them beat it once, okay, NEXT!

OT. As for classic games where frusturating or challenging parts. The majority of Castlevania Chronicles. I'm a huge Castlevania fan, but damn if this game isn't ridiculously difficult without using tricks that the game didn't mean for you to use to get past. Up to stage three, okay it's fine. Stage four to the end, there's eight stages, very very difficult.

[Tanooki]

Pat...sigh. :P

Anyway games that are specifically designed to be super frustrating with nearly if not damn near impossible to not die once or lots of times spots in them forcing someone to painfully and slowly develop a photographic situational memory and muscle memory to pass a spot is not a well designed game. It's the sign of problematic design where the creator felt to lengthen the experience is to drive someone to near madness having to re-do shit over far too much to progress beyond that rate. You have to have a lot of patience, perhaps more than one logically should with a game. Mega Man has a few spots in the series of games, even more in the X and even more than that in the Zero series. It easily does cross into the not fun category but one can overlook that to a point if the rest works as a crutch to put up with the garbage. There are far more and probably better games to pick on for it because for many who just have poor short term memory or not the best muscle memory a wall is created on a game that once sold for $50 that someone will never be able to finish without cheating or getting someone else to do it and that though is quite unfair. I'll freely admit I'll probably never finish a mega man game again as my time is limited so my patience is shot, but one I've never liked due to this crap are 'bullet hell' shooters, there's nothing fun about that at all versus one based upon the usual methods.

I also agree with 'ice' stage stuff, pretty rough. I mean you can compensate pretty well when landing to jump (hop) again or multiple times pulling back to slow your roll, but it's annoying as hell.

[kupomogli]

Pat...sigh. :P

and even more than that in the Zero series.

I didn't even think of the Zero series until your post. The first one is okay, but man that series is bad. So much required memorization it's ridiculous.

[FieryReign]

Silver Surfer is one of the most ridiculously unfair games I've ever played. Can't even get through a single level. It pisses me off to no end. Even the puniest enemies take way too many shots to kill. Barely grazing a wall will kill you and send you far back to the beginning or checkpoint. It would be a pretty good game if it simply had a life bar or let you respawn where you die.

[kupomogli]

^it's a shmup with Silver Surfer as your ship. Most shmups have no life bar and touching anything equals death. It's a dime a dozen genre, most of which are designed to quarter munchers. I'm sure Silver Surfer is console only, doesn't mean it plays any different.

[FieryReign]

^ I know it's a shooter and that's how most of them are designed. But there are shooters with life bars. It is console only. I wouldn't consider it a quarter muncher because it's a checkpoint shooter. You wouldn't be able to just credit-feed your way through it. The background layouts are confusing, it's hard to tell what background will kill you. And what's up with the rubber duckies? Silver's weapon is so puny and weak.

[Arkanoid_Katamari]

If you want a game that you can beat on your very first playthrough I suggest you check out something on the sega pico system.
To say mega man games are unfair is like admitting to being a huge wimp. Mega Man games are very beatable and quite frankly are not that hard.

I actually think they're very beatable also. They're not impossible, I actually don't mind the "unfair" moments where u'll inevitably die the first time, cuz I'll be back there in just a few minutes. I thought it'd be a cool topic for discussion, tho. Mega Man games are definately hard tho. They are not easy games. Not impossible, but to say they're not hard? They're hard. Kirby's Adventure is easy. The Little Mermaid is easy.

[Arkanoid_Katamari]

Mega Man is far from unfair by design unless you're talking about Mega Man 9. If you want a massively overrated game that's unfair by design, Super Meat Boy. The game isn't very good imo. The developers added a high jump that is lower and longer with acceleration, but it's a very long distance you can jump. So they just put together levels, didn't matter how poorly placed everything was, because the jump would cover it, so if it was too short, big deal, jump would cover it, too long, jump would cover it, etc. They did put a little effort into the design, but that's it, A LITTLE effort. I guarantee that each level was. Is this completable? Played until one of them beat it once, okay, NEXT!

OT. As for classic games where frusturating or challenging parts. The majority of Castlevania Chronicles. I'm a huge Castlevania fan, but damn if this game isn't ridiculously difficult without using tricks that the game didn't mean for you to use to get past. Up to stage three, okay it's fine. Stage four to the end, there's eight stages, very very difficult.

Super Meat Boy definately has unfair aspects, and I'll say that game is probably more brutal then most NES platformers, but I think what kept me playing that one a lot was that u have infinite continues and u restart the level within half a second, so it doesn't give me time to blow a fuse at it. And it's amusing to watch the millions of meat boys running thru the level at the end. I never beat it, my roommate did tho, along with the dark worlds, he loves it. I just hit the boss fight where u hafta follow the other meat boy thru the level and keep up, and I just cannot get past it. I've tried it a zillion times, its just not happening.

[Arkanoid_Katamari]

Silver Surfer is one of the most ridiculously unfair games I've ever played. Can't even get through a single level. It pisses me off to no end. Even the puniest enemies take way too many shots to kill. Barely grazing a wall will kill you and send you far back to the beginning or checkpoint. It would be a pretty good game if it simply had a life bar or let you respawn where you die.

Are there any codes for that game? Or anything with the game genie that can give u a leg up?

[Arkanoid_Katamari]

Pat...sigh. :P

Anyway games that are specifically designed to be super frustrating with nearly if not damn near impossible to not die once or lots of times spots in them forcing someone to painfully and slowly develop a photographic situational memory and muscle memory to pass a spot is not a well designed game. It's the sign of problematic design where the creator felt to lengthen the experience is to drive someone to near madness having to re-do shit over far too much to progress beyond that rate. You have to have a lot of patience, perhaps more than one logically should with a game. Mega Man has a few spots in the series of games, even more in the X and even more than that in the Zero series. It easily does cross into the not fun category but one can overlook that to a point if the rest works as a crutch to put up with the garbage. There are far more and probably better games to pick on for it because for many who just have poor short term memory or not the best muscle memory a wall is created on a game that once sold for $50 that someone will never be able to finish without cheating or getting someone else to do it and that though is quite unfair. I'll freely admit I'll probably never finish a mega man game again as my time is limited so my patience is shot, but one I've never liked due to this crap are 'bullet hell' shooters, there's nothing fun about that at all versus one based upon the usual methods.

I also agree with 'ice' stage stuff, pretty rough. I mean you can compensate pretty well when landing to jump (hop) again or multiple times pulling back to slow your roll, but it's annoying as hell.

I fully agree with u about bullet hell shooters. I really like shooter stages when they're woven into a platformer, if the challenge isnt completely insane, but some games r just brutal. It works well in Xexyz, Kirby, Super Mario Land, even Air Fortress and Seicross. I love games like Life Force, also, but it requires a lot of memorization. Life Force isn't too bad with it, but there are definately some parts u hafta kno to advance forward or get closed off by the multiplying walls of cells or whatever.

Mega Man is still redeemable, I think, cuz it does so many other things right. But the specific part that first comes to mind is when ur traversing the disappearing blocks in Mega Man 2, in the fire stage, I forget the boss's name, towards the end where ur going across the pit of lava there is one stupid brick that u hafta know to jump a half a second early in order to reach, and if u don't nail it, instant death in the lava.

[Arkanoid_Katamari]

My biggest pet pieve is enemies that take over a whole platform. Ninja Gaiden is the worst for that. Now, I love Ninja Gaiden, but theres those platforms with an enemy on it where u just cannot land on it unless u hit him with one perfect mid-air lucky hit, otherwise ur takin a hit, getting thrown back, and its back to the beginning. That, to me, is frustrating. I can deal with respawning enemies, if u figure out how to use it to ur advantage its not a big deal. But its moments like in Ninja Gaiden where theres the grim reaper looking things on one tiny platform and the platforms just too small to land on before attacking. Insane.

[Tanooki]

MM2's blocks were a shock to me as that was my first of those. It got to me for a little but I was ok on it, one I've never been able to handle properly is the bullshit layout/timing needed in the later game/stage Magnet Man. F that stage. I just don't even want to play that game anymore just because that stuff.

I also agree with Ninja Gaiden and the like. Games with platforms and tiny gaps to land where you must strike in air or as you touch down because if you don't you have the asinine couple inch knockback that puts you in a hole and back to the start of the area is just overkill cheapness in the name of 'challenge.'

[Arkanoid_Katamari]

MM2's blocks were a shock to me as that was my first of those. It got to me for a little but I was ok on it, one I've never been able to handle properly is the bullshit layout/timing needed in the later game/stage Magnet Man. F that stage. I just don't even want to play that game anymore just because that stuff.

I also agree with Ninja Gaiden and the like. Games with platforms and tiny gaps to land where you must strike in air or as you touch down because if you don't you have the asinine couple inch knockback that puts you in a hole and back to the start of the area is just overkill cheapness in the name of 'challenge.'

Agreed. I'm in the middle of Xexyz, and theres even a few spots like that with unavoidable enemies in that game, as well. And Xexyz isn't a hard game at all. Also its a fantastic game that nobody talks about and everyone should play Xexyz. Excellent if u like Blaster Master.

[FieryReign]

Agreed. I'm in the middle of Xexyz, and theres even a few spots like that with unavoidable enemies in that game, as well. And Xexyz isn't a hard game at all. Also its a fantastic game that nobody talks about and everyone should play Xexyz. Excellent if u like Blaster Master.
This game kinda reminds me of Keith Courage. Maybe because the jump sound effect sounds exactly like when you take a hit in KC. I remember seeing ads for this game in magazines and had no idea how to even pronounce the name. Makes me wonder why they would choose such a name? It actually turned me off from playing it when I was younger. I don't even remember seeing screenshots or reviews.

[bb_hood]

My biggest pet pieve is enemies that take over a whole platform. Ninja Gaiden is the worst for that. Now, I love Ninja Gaiden, but theres those platforms with an enemy on it where u just cannot land on it unless u hit him with one perfect mid-air lucky hit, otherwise ur takin a hit, getting thrown back, and its back to the beginning. That, to me, is frustrating. I can deal with respawning enemies, if u figure out how to use it to ur advantage its not a big deal. But its moments like in Ninja Gaiden where theres the grim reaper looking things on one tiny platform and the platforms just too small to land on before attacking. Insane.

To kill those guys (on the tiny platforms) you have to use the spinning slash item before you land on them. Ninja Gaiden is about precision and utilizing the special weapons correctly.
With Ninja Gaiden 1 & 2 enemies will respawn if you get knocked back, so you you gotta be good at hitting the enemy sprites. With the flying enemies just use the Fire Wheel.
In Ninja Gaiden III, the enemies wont respawn if you get knocked back. With practice you will find that all 3 ninja gaiden games really only get difficult in the final few stages.



I also agree with Ninja Gaiden and the like. Games with platforms and tiny gaps to land where you must strike in air or as you touch down because if you don't you have the asinine couple inch knockback that puts you in a hole and back to the start of the area is just overkill cheapness in the name of 'challenge.'

You have to use the special weapons. Its basic problem solving, really.



Mega Man is still redeemable, I think, cuz it does so many other things right. But the specific part that first comes to mind is when ur traversing the disappearing blocks in Mega Man 2, in the fire stage, I forget the boss's name, towards the end where ur going across the pit of lava there is one stupid brick that u hafta know to jump a half a second early in order to reach, and if u don't nail it, instant death in the lava.

Or you could just use the special item that lets you fly over the lava completely. Piece of cake. Grab that 1up while you are at it. Many of the block puzzles in all the mega man games can just be skipped by using the rush coil or rush jet.

[Arkanoid_Katamari]

To kill those guys (on the tiny platforms) you have to use the spinning slash item before you land on them. Ninja Gaiden is about precision and utilizing the special weapons correctly.
With Ninja Gaiden 1 & 2 enemies will respawn if you get knocked back, so you you gotta be good at hitting the enemy sprites. With the flying enemies just use the Fire Wheel.
In Ninja Gaiden III, the enemies wont respawn if you get knocked back. With practice you will find that all 3 ninja gaiden games really only get difficult in the final few stages.



You have to use the special weapons. Its basic problem solving, really.



Or you could just use the special item that lets you fly over the lava completely. Piece of cake. Grab that 1up while you are at it. Many of the block puzzles in all the mega man games can just be skipped by using the rush coil or rush jet.

That is true about Ninja Gaiden. They're not impossible games per say, I can kill the enemies on the tiny platforms, but it still feels cheap.

As for the blocks in Mega Man 2, that is true also but if u r playing that level as ur first one, u won't have the powerups available yet. I can do the blocks, but only cuz I tried it a buncha times and memorized when/where the blocks show up.

[MASTERWEEDO]

Battletoads.

[Berserker]

I learned the meaning of the word "patience" when I first encountered darknuts in Zelda - my dad actually explained it to me at that moment. It felt really rewarding when I finally cleared that entire room of random-direction-changing bastards.

[Eternal Champion]

Gaiden is nothing compared to R-Type III, one of the worst. Worse than Gaiares, which I like, which also has one shot/one kill, back to checkpoint B.S.

[XYXZYZ]

One of the reasons I don't play Gradius games is because you spend all that time powering up your ship, and a single hit takes you back to a checkpoint in the middle of a major enemy assault with a useless single shot and a ship that's too slow.

[BetaWolf47]

One of the reasons I don't play Gradius games is because you spend all that time powering up your ship, and a single hit takes you back to a checkpoint in the middle of a major enemy assault with a useless single shot and a ship that's too slow.
This. The Gradius series is pretty much ruined for me because of that.

I'd like to toss in a frustrating instance to a game that's a few generations later than everything mentioned here: Donkey Kong 64. Very well balanced platformer with great level design when you first start. Then, to be able to beat the game, you have the unfair challenge of having to beat the original arcade Donkey Kong twice on one credit (3 lives), just to earn a stupid token that unlocks a door to the final boss. Doesn't matter how good you are at the rest of Donkey Kong 64, if you aren't a pro at a game released 15 years prior, you cannot beat the game no matter what.

[Arkanoid_Katamari]

This. The Gradius series is pretty much ruined for me because of that.

I'd like to toss in a frustrating instance to a game that's a few generations later than everything mentioned here: Donkey Kong 64. Very well balanced platformer with great level design when you first start. Then, to be able to beat the game, you have the unfair challenge of having to beat the original arcade Donkey Kong twice on one credit (3 lives), just to earn a stupid token that unlocks a door to the final boss. Doesn't matter how good you are at the rest of Donkey Kong 64, if you aren't a pro at a game released 15 years prior, you cannot beat the game no matter what.

I haven't played Dk 64, but I never found the original DK arcade game to be that hard. That is kinda annoying tho

[Arkanoid_Katamari]

Ice levels.

"Hey, enjoying the game? That's cool; try playing it with shit control now."

Haha I kinda agree. Depends on the game for ice levels tho. The one that I'm thinking of is in Mega Man 6, and its one of those things like respawning enemies, u can try to use it to ur advantage.