Something I find annoying about the retro gaming scene - Anyone else feel this way?

[Edmond Dantes]

This is something I've been noticing for awhile, but it seems like most discussion of "retro gaming" ultimately comes down to everyone endlessly talking about the same big hits that we all already know already.

Rinry (a female reviewer I enjoyed watching--wow that sounded wrong) had a crossover with some dude where they took a side on the 16-Bit war and talked about what they considered the three best games on each platform. Rinry disappointed me by going the boring route: all three of her choices were first-party Nintendo games. The other dude (I forget his name) surprised me by mentioning Comix Zone, but then his other two choices were rather typical, and yes, one of them was Sonic.

For another example, I was glancing at the topic about magazines and saw the Retro-Gaming Magazine (as in magazine *about* Retro) and... the cover story was "We're gonna talk about how f***ing awesome Doom was!"

Yeah, look, I get it, these games are classics.

But seriously.

Retro Gaming becomes totally boring when "the classics" are all anyone ever talks about.

To quote Gggmanlives: "Did you really watch this video just to see another person sing the praises of Half-life? Didn't think so."

By the same token, I don't watch retro gaming videos or join retro gaming groups just to circlejerk about Mario and Sonic all day.

If I talk about the Genesis, I want to see if other people have played the anime game with blue-haired She-Ra, or that RPG that spanned three generations, or that platformer about the possum with the jet pack, or that action-RPG where the plot was driven by you only being able to talk to animals, or that other action-RPG that used a tilted perspective and had a healing drug called "EkeEke" (is that pronounced "Eek Eek" or "Eh-kay Eh-kay"?), or maybe the times we got console-exclusives based on pen-n-paper that didn't suck. And I used descriptions instead of titles because I want to see how many of you are real fans and actually know what games these are.

And when I don't want to share my own memories, I want to hear about the games I never played, but may have heard of and/or be curious about. I'm sure somebody asked for Sonic one Christmas and instead got Saint Sword (maybe your parents assumed it was a religious game) and so how did that turn out? Or "hey was that James Bond sidescroller any good?" Or for that matter, I keep seeing this series about a superspy who happens to also be a fish, what's the deal with those?

It's not that I hate the first-party franchises. It's just that talking about the same thing all the time gets very dull, very quick. Besides, I honestly don't see the "big names" as being console-defining (except maybe Sonic because of how hard Sega pushed him) since a console is defined by its whole, not the sum of its parts. If the Genesis really only had Sonic and nothing else, it truly would be a worthless system. Likewise if the SNES only had Mario and Zelda and nothing else, it would be no better than the Gamecube.

So does anyone else get annoyed with this "all we ever talk about is the games you already know about" aspect of the retro scene or am I the only one who has even noticed it?

[SpaceHarrier]

To be fair though, DOOM was pretty f***ing awesome.

[WCP]

Actually, it's probably more of a case of people just feeling like if they talk about the most popular, classic games, then more people will chime in with their 2 cents, because they will know a little something about the topic.

For example, if you make a thread about some obscure Genesis game that virtually nobody played, and then you only get one response to your thread, you really can't be disappointed, because there is a limited audience that experienced that and is going to make a comment about it.

I know it sucks in a way, because you're probably more interested in hearing about hidden gems in a systems catalog, but that's what the specialty forums are for. You can go to forums that only discuss TG-16 and there you'll find somebody discussing a little known TG-16 release. Or go to a Sega only forum to discuss some obscure Genesis game. Usually there, people will know what you're talking about, and they will join in on the discussion.

[ZeroCool]

I think the problem stems from what was available for certain people. As kids for many we didn't have any money so its not like we could chance to pick on a game we weren't exactly sure of. The only time I got games were my birthday, christmas, when I finished school for the year and when I saved my allowance which was maybe twice a year or so. So I definitely got the sure hits. The only time I got games that were not hugely popular is when I stumbled upon it by renting or I just took a chance with it. Captain Skyhawk is a favorite of mine. Also Al Unser Jrs Turbo Racing. Both these were cheap so I was desperate to get a new game.

Also Im not sure magazines were giving exposure to these games so its hard for kids to pick the less titles. Now with the internet its easier to find out these titles that didnt make a lot of sales but are still good nonetheless. Yeah if you go to these lists your going to hear the same old most likely. It gets dull after awhile.

[sfchakan]

or that RPG that spanned three generations,

The internet has deemed Phantasy Star III to be not cool. So say we all.

I guess.

Personally, I thought it was pretty decent, just very different from PS I & II.



To engage the entire topic, some of us have been around the online gaming/retrogaming scene long enough to have pretty much seen it all.

Yes, it gets pretty damn old.

[Oldskool]

I totally agree.

Valis, Phantasy Star III Generations of Doom, Sparkster / Rocket Knight Adventures, .... sounds very familiar but can't quite remember, and Landstalker.

All great games by the way.


If I talk about the Genesis, I want to see if other people have played the anime game with blue-haired She-Ra, or that RPG that spanned three generations, or that platformer about the possum with the jet pack, or that action-RPG where the plot was driven by you only being able to talk to animals, or that other action-RPG that used a tilted perspective and had a healing drug called "EkeEke" (is that pronounced "Eek Eek" or "Eh-kay Eh-kay"?), or maybe the times we got console-exclusives based on pen-n-paper that didn't suck. And I used descriptions instead of titles because I want to see how many of you are real fans and actually know what games these are.

[Edmond Dantes]

I totally agree.

Valis, Phantasy Star III Generations of Doom, Sparkster / Rocket Knight Adventures, .... sounds very familiar but can't quite remember, and Landstalker.

All great games by the way.

Well, here's some extra hints to help you figure out that one:

You could equip animal buddies.

One combination allowed your sword to bounce off walls.

Sonic made a cameo appearance.

And by this point I've practically given away what game it is.


I think the problem stems from what was available for certain people.

That might be the case, but personally I think that almost makes it weirder.

Just for a personal example, I actually didn't play any Castlevania or Contra games until the dawn of emulation, and didn't get to play Zelda: A Link to the Past until near the end of the SNES' life-span. A lot of this was due to how I acquired games--usually we'd go to a local rental and rent whatever they had on hand (which the selection could be kind of random) and then I would want to buy the ones I really liked. This was how I wound up with Illusion of Gaia and Secret of Mana before Zelda (the rental I went to never had Zelda) and how I discovered the top-view shooter where a Shinto priestess and a raccoon die a lot. Other times (moreso in the NES days) I would just get random gifts from my parents because I was too young to really make up my own mind. Wound up getting a kinda eclectic library that way--like, seriously, Destination Earthstar is one of those games I doubt anybody would ask to own but is still worth playing at least once. And it was only recently that I discovered it had side-scrolling stages.

So it kinda makes me wonder about kids who apparently only ever played the games that wound up becoming hits. How did THAT happen?

[Gameguy]

Well, here's some extra hints to help you figure out that one:

You could equip animal buddies.

One combination allowed your sword to bounce off walls.

Sonic made a cameo appearance.

And by this point I've practically given away what game it is.
It's Crusader of Centy for anyone still wondering about this one. Still hoping to find a copy for myself.

[Oldskool]

OH OK.. no wonder I couldn't figure that one out. That is the only game on that list that I never actually owned short of playing it some on Sega Channel and maybe a little bit through emulation. Heard it was good though. That damn game is getting expensive too.

[Edmond Dantes]

Yeah I find myself wishing I had bought it back when it was only $40...

Speaking of Centy, that game led me to my first negative experience with Nintendo fanboys. Basically, from the time of its release, Centy was heavily derided (even by some contemporary magazines) as being "so much of a Zelda rip-off you might as well call it 'Legend of Melda'." What always pissed me off was that this description is basically, wrong on every level. But confront a Nintendo fan with that, and they'll defend that assertion (and even parrot that exact description), and justify it with trivial stuff like "its top view, you're a kid with a sword who kinda-sorta (but not really) looks like Link..." keep pressing them and they'll try to say that the animal companions are just a variation on Zelda's "find a new item in each dungeon" pattern, which is valid up to a point but ignores that Centy doesn't have an eight-dungeons pattern (it's far more story-driven), most of the animal companions aren't found in dungeons and mechanically they function nothing like Zelda's boomerangs, hookshots or what-have-you. Some fanboys who are determined to make Zelda the be-all end-all will go to ridiculous lengths.

It probably didn't help that I already thought Zelda was kind of overrated anyway (I did a blog article about that. I can throw up a link if you're interested) but experiences like this just go to show how biased the world is in Nintendo's favor. I almost could make that a rant in and of itself--seriously, most video game videos on the web are extremely Nintendo-centric. James Rolfe is a Nintendo fanboy, Game Theory is a Nintendo fanboy, Gaming Historian claims to have originally been a Sega fan but at some point morphed into a Nintendo fanboy, and so on, and so forth. That's probably why so many people these days think Sega has always been shit, unaware that there was a time when Sega was actually glorious.

(and yeah, I think I just revealed what side of the 16-bit wars I come down on)

[ccovell]

Please open up several new "Hidden Gems on xxx system" threads, then! I'll read them.

For starters: http://www.chrismcovell.com/gbgems.html
and
http://www.chrismcovell.com/texts/TopPCEMusic.html
and
http://www.chrismcovell.com/OneStation/index.html
and
http://www.chrismcovell.com/games_illustrated/arc-road_spirits.html
and
http://www.chrismcovell.com/games_illustrated/arc-hihou_densetsu.html
and
http://www.chrismcovell.com/JBTribute/about.html

I don't really mean to link-dump, but these are all slightly obscure games and/or topics, good to get the juices flowing.

That was originally Hardcore Gaming 101's raison d'etre as well...

[Arkanoid_Katamari]

I've tried talking about Eliminator Boat Duel oh sorry, ElimOnator boat duel, and some other lesser-known NES games, but no one ever cares. So I make threads about Crash Bandicoot and I get 10 replies lol.

Lets try this again. Has anyone ever played Xexyz?? It's awesome.

[MidnightRider]

^I actually have, but I can't say I recall a whole hell of a lot. The adventure and genre changing elements kind of put me off.

Also, I was under the impression that Shadowrun got referenced in that first post.

If you want a game where the protagonist moves crazy fast through some loops, that isn't Sonic, play as the Road Runner during Desert Demolition. You won't notice in the first stage, which just doesn't work for his faster speed, but from the 2nd stage onward...

[Jorpho]

It's almost as annoying as ambiguous clickbait thread titles.

One of the reasons I like HG101 (http://www.hardcoregaming101.net) so much is that they're constantly putting up articles about obscure old stuff.

[Tanooki]

I agree it's a problem, but it's also as much a problem of being noticed. Not just the other games being noticed, but the reviewer wanting to be noticed after wasting all the time doing what they've done. You'll catch a lot more people talking up the top10% of video games instead of the other 90% of obscure stuff which ranged from as excellent to a lot of turds. Make a video or review about something like Mario/Sonic, or make one about Sunset Riders or a Rock n Roll Racing game on either 16bit platform, which one do you think will get the most notice? That's the problem really, playing it safe gets you noticed and your review capabilities, the others do not. YOu could do them in time once one is established, but if you're just going to be the niche guy, most people will never notice you doing it.

[sfchakan]

Oh, for fuck's sake, can we not throw around the term "hidden gem" here too? So sick of seeing it.

"YOU'VE ALL PLAYED SUPER MARIO GALAXY, BUT HAVE YOU PLAYED THIS HIDDEN GEM?!?

http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/529524-super-mario-galaxy-2-wii-screenshot-title-screens.png"

[ccovell]

Oh, for fuck's sake, can we not throw around the term "hidden gem"

It's an appropriate word when it fits. Ya wanna use the '90s term "sleeper" instead?

[ZeroCool]

This was how I wound up with Illusion of Gaia and Secret of Mana before Zelda (the rental I went to never had Zelda) and how I discovered the top-view shooter where a Shinto priestess and a raccoon die a lot.

Thats Pocky and Rocky I believe. I got it and its pretty difficult

[sfchakan]

No, the needless crutch that is describing everything non-Mario as a fucking hidden gem is pathetic.

Brutal Legend (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rorfFQ9eM6s) is a hidden gem? Gee, I thought it got tons of press coverage, magazine covers, and attention when it was released. Silly me.

[Tanooki]

Yeah that has to be Pocky & Rocky (1 or 2) and it's a great on foot shooter. I haven't played it in quite awhile and I'm tempted to actually just let it go lately but I doubt I'll pull the trigger on that one. I think it deserves the sleeper/hidden gem tag, at least for the period as now people have taken the greed aspect to both of those games on SNES and rammed the price through the roof in the last couple of years. Sometimes the sleeper term fits the period it came out and not now all because of how things have changed which is sad.

[Casati]

No, the needless crutch that is describing everything non-Mario as a fucking hidden gem is pathetic.

Brutal Legend (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rorfFQ9eM6s) is a hidden gem? Gee, I thought it got tons of press coverage, magazine covers, and attention when it was released. Silly me.

Just because a game was well-known back then doesn't mean it is today. Hidden gem is a good search term for finding better games that go under the radar. Of course, most of those hidden gem lists include certain games such as Crystalis for the NES, but there is only so many great games.

[homerhomer]

You probably have more classic gaming knowledge than the guys writing these gaming articles.

[Bojay1997]

I'm not following how classic games are different than any other art form. The games that sold the best or were the best known tend to be more relevant and present in people's memories long after the fact when compared to games that didn't. People don't tend to talk about obscure movies or television shows that nobody else has seen because it would be a totally one sided conversation.

I have seen plenty of "sleeper" threads pop up and while it's always neat to learn about something you missed at the time, it's hard to be nostalgic and contribute much to the discussion when you never had or played something. I think we are also ignoring the fact that there were plenty of terrible classic games as well and many of those are probably best forgotten.

[Edmond Dantes]

I think we are also ignoring the fact that there were plenty of terrible classic games as well and many of those are probably best forgotten.

Actually no. Sometimes I think the "trash" is kinda interesting. Yeah, Action 52 was an abject failure, but I still can't help wondering what the hell the deal is with the game where you play as a pair of hands and killing things makes them say "Time?" Likewise the Jekyll and Hyde NES game actually sounds like it was interesting in theory, just not executed very well. Someone actually started a project to remake Action 52.

Then there's games like Nightshade which, well, pretty much show a side of a classic console most people would never be aware of, and I'm sure its an extremely love-it-or-hate-it game just because the genre its in is extremely divisive. Still worthy of getting noticed or discussed.

(In fact I've noticed that people tend to be attracted to talking about "bad" games. I remember a Hydlide topic awhile ago where tons of people turned out and half of them mentioned that it had a superior sequel on the Sega Genesis... which it totally does by the way)

[Steven]

Oh, for fuck's sake, can we not throw around the term "hidden gem" here too?

LOL. How about sleeper, underrated, overlooked, obscure? Actually, I find in recent years people are creating more and more topics or making more YT videos on lesser known titles. It seems to be the "thing to do" -- taking a system and highlighting its sleeper hits.

I've always enjoyed the lesser praised/played/known/talked about games... stemming as far back as 1991 with King of the Monsters. So to OP, I see your point, but I actually feel it's the opposite. I see more obscure stuff threads nowadays than people circle jerking over Mario. I feel that stuff was so 5-8 years ago, and now people are exploring deeper into a system's catalog, and realizing that it's fun to share about games that haven't been discussed already to death.

And for those who do post about the big titles, no, it doesn't annoy me. If I don't care to read it, then I don't click on it, or I simply hit back on my browser. No big deal either way.

[celerystalker]

I'm with you. I do enjoy reminiscing about classics, but it's a lot of fun to dig into the deep end of the pool and try to pull out some new games to play. I buy more games these days for classic systems just to try to find something unique or different than to pick up the same top 10 lists out there. Limiting the discussion to the well-known games really restricts the experience of playing classic games and subtly discourages spending money on the chance that that odd-looking game on the rack you've never heard of instead of what everyone thinks you should be playing. The best Genesis games I've played came from random chances instead of just buying Sonic and Shinobi, like CrackDown or Gain Ground or Trouble Shooter, which I only bought because the 70's style cover art with girls that looked like something out of Charlie's Angels made my buddy laugh when we were shopping.

The classics are classics because they're great, but playing retro games can be a much more fulfilling experience, and talking about the fringes to each other helps it become all the more rich so we can all try something new. That's the whole reason I started coming to sites like this. Dropping in on conversations with other people just might lead to not only meeting people with common interests, but also new games to try, and reading about other people's memories attached to those games only makes it all the more special. Saying Super Metroid is awesome is true, but it doesn't really enrich the lives or hobbies of the people I'm talking to unless they're very, very new to games.

[Bojay1997]

Actually no. Sometimes I think the "trash" is kinda interesting. Yeah, Action 52 was an abject failure, but I still can't help wondering what the hell the deal is with the game where you play as a pair of hands and killing things makes them say "Time?" Likewise the Jekyll and Hyde NES game actually sounds like it was interesting in theory, just not executed very well. Someone actually started a project to remake Action 52.

Then there's games like Nightshade which, well, pretty much show a side of a classic console most people would never be aware of, and I'm sure its an extremely love-it-or-hate-it game just because the genre its in is extremely divisive. Still worthy of getting noticed or discussed.

(In fact I've noticed that people tend to be attracted to talking about "bad" games. I remember a Hydlide topic awhile ago where tons of people turned out and half of them mentioned that it had a superior sequel on the Sega Genesis... which it totally does by the way)

I don't know, Retrogamer does a lot of company and programmer retrospectives and they talk about the "bad" games. While you might be interested in the back story, much of the time it's just a matter of a company in trouble trying to rush something to market or a programmer who was just over their head or who ran out of time or money. I just think there are too many great and good games out there to waste too much time talking about or playing the bad ones.

[Gameguy]

Oh, for fuck's sake, can we not throw around the term "hidden gem" here too? So sick of seeing it.
Kind of this. Every decent game for older systems have pretty much been discussed by now, there's nothing really hidden left. Actually the games being overlooked now are the commons that nobody bothers with anymore because they're so common. How many people would gush over an obscure game like Alien Soldier over something common like Kid Chameleon? Kid Chameleon was everywhere, it's common to find original copies and it was included in plenty of compilations. Now just wait to see it mentioned anywhere in discussion.

[sfchakan]

I think it's better to have genuine enthusiasm for something you loved, personally. Who cares if it happens to be Super Mario World?

[MidnightRider]

I'm thinking this one boils down to franchising. The "gems" are overlooked because they weren't as heavily advertised, or didn't have a predecessor on a previously successful console, or successors on modern consoles to this day.

Still, it doesn't hurt to learn more about what a console has for games, that one might be interested in.

(The worst part is this whole post would have relevance in a console wars topic)

[Daria]

That's it from now on I'm going to refer to "hidden gems" as "cult classics" like they're obscure films.

[Yorkie]

The Twisted Tales of Spike Mcfang, yo.

Who would've thought?!

[Edmond Dantes]

Really its not about wanting hidden gems or whatever, it's about how this almost exclusive focus on the hits seems to diminish and make a mockery of the classic consoles its supposed to revere.

"What good games did the NES have?"

"Umm... Mario... and Mario 2... and Mario 3..."

"I already have those. What else?"

"Umm... Zelda..."

"Already have that too. What else?"

"Ummm.... did I already say Mario?"

"... Dude, I just sat here listening to you and that doberman over there tell me that the NES was the best thing ever, and now you're telling me that in its library of over 700 games you can only think of four that were good?"

"... Oh, there was also Zelda 2!"

"Okay so if the only thing good on it is Mario and Zelda then what makes it better than the Gamecube or the Wii?"

"Uhhh.... it has... ummm.... Zelda!"

"Never mind, I'm gonna go back to my Wii U."

[Tanooki]

Well when you put it that way, yes it's lame if someone calls a system great and all they can name is one whored out franchise or two overlooking what many could call equals if not superior titles. A lot of these dumb videos wasting internet space do in fact do that, but there are some that do dig up the lesser known, yet annoyingly they also depending on how they're approached or pitched can cause a rare game not only to be known but also get the rare pricing which is awful. That's another good way to turn people off, have them see the 'good' stuff cost like $50-500+ and the usual suspects being the cheap stuff around a mix of mostly bonafide turds and some good ones that got overlooked by the video people. Cinemassacre Mike did a good bit of damage to the NES and SNES prices when he threw out some 'rares' and the prices just got shitty, a few recovered, but stuff like Hagane for instance never returned to sanity, neither have the Natsume titles, even formerly cheap pocky and rocky is an $80 game now when it was trouble moving it for $15 a couple years ago.

[celerystalker]

It's very true that popular videos or features on sites like HG101 can really boost demand and inflate prices. However, hoping to find out about something new to try and find is 90% of the reason I look at sites like these. After buying hundreds, even thousands of games, it's easy to feel like you've seen it all and feel like you have no reason to go to game stores anymore. When some import enthusiast or classic game player who was into a console in a different way from me puts something I'm not familiar with out there, it reminds me to keep looking, and that there is still new fun to be had on my systems. Heck, that's why I've been writing posts on oddball imports in that forum. Not to flex some kind of game muscle, but to tell anyone else who feels like I do about something different, and I hope to hear some new ones to me as well.

[ccovell]

The above post got it in a nutshell.

[JSoup]

If you'd like to see reviews about hidden gems and such, try looking up Classic Game Room on youtube. That guys comes up with all kinds of neat stuff to review.


Thats Pocky and Rocky I believe. I got it and its pretty difficult

Pocky and Rocky was the second game I downloaded when I first figured out how to use an emulator year and years ago. Didn't know what it was and the title screen made it look dumb, I thought.

One of my favorite SNES games now.