The Internet Arcade (web.archive.org)

[Tanooki]

Sorry if this was covered before and I missed it but wow.
https://archive.org/details/internetarcade

It appears various license holders have allowed the interenet wayback machine people at achive.org to setup an internet arcade archive of machines where you can play the games right in your web browser. There's over 135 games up there currently, not sure how this was all setup but it appears to have went up over the summer and it has cames from many major developers too.

[Gamevet]

I'm surprised to see Stargate with its original name.

[Bojay1997]

Sorry if this was covered before and I missed it but wow.
https://archive.org/details/internetarcade

It appears various license holders have allowed the interenet wayback machine people at achive.org to setup an internet arcade archive of machines where you can play the games right in your web browser. There's over 135 games up there currently, not sure how this was all setup but it appears to have went up over the summer and it has cames from many major developers too.

Pretty sure they did this without permission. At least, I don't see any evidence that any of these games were properly licensed.

[Greg2600]

They wouldn't be the first to do so sans license, but this is the first "reputable" website to do so.

[JSoup]

It's not exactly new for archive.org to toss up things they had no rights to toss up and then have to pull it later.

[Edmond Dantes]

Didn't archive.org also once host a very big mame rom collection in a 40gig torrent?

[JSoup]

Didn't archive.org also once host a very big mame rom collection in a 40gig torrent?

Among other things, yeah.

[Tanooki]

So like with the legality I guess in question, should the idea be to remove the link? Admin have a word on this? I don't care either way, it was just a nice find I bumped into randomly.

[Greg2600]

So like with the legality I guess in question, should the idea be to remove the link? Admin have a word on this? I don't care either way, it was just a nice find I bumped into randomly.

We're not hosting roms here, it's only a web link.

[JSoup]

Is sharing even formally against the rules here? We used to have a topic for sharing, but Joe closed it cause he wasn't sure.

[Tanooki]

The last time I ever saw an honest debate on rom/warez links was post-DMCA but before it was more spelled out with revisions and court decisions so paranoia was high and it wasn't allowed but wasn't clear yet tended to think it was ok as long as the site itself was not condoning or supporting it because you can't be held liable for what some random faceless member throws up on an open script (messageboard.)

Yet if DP itself, a staffer, made a news story saying 'go here for roms offsite' or the duh obvious hosting them themselves then you had an issue. It's why I asked as I was uncertain.

[Nz17]

I am an administrator here, and I can spell things out.

First, for any questions about discussing ROMs and such, refer to the FAQ linked by the top of the forum. Specifically, see [1]. However, this was written very long ago by Joe, and the information is in need of revising. That FAQ entry was written as a way of protecting the site in case of legal threat against this place in the wake of the large wave of lawyers' C&D letters attacking retro-gaming sites at the time; but some of its info is incorrect, outdated, or over-reactionary.

I follow this sort of copyright law very closely, and unless Joe states otherwise, talk will go on here at the forum as thus:


Discussions about official emulators (Virtual Console, PSOne Classics, etc.) are allowed.
Discussions about official ROMs (Virtual Console, PSOne Classics, etc.) are allowed.
Discussions about unofficial emulators (FCEUX, ZSNES, etc.) are allowed as such emulators and their creation are deemed legal per established precedent by the American courts. See [2] [3] [4]
Discussions about freeware, demo, and public domain ROM such as those offered by [5] are fine... but make sure they are legal to redistribute.
Discussions about prototypes, early versions of games, etc., are fine. However, talk of dumped games is probably better avoided, as while the individual who dumped them might own that particular copy of the game, it is unlikely he owns the copyright to the material in question. Obviously this would be determined by a case-by-case basis, but play it safe by avoiding talking about dumps unless it is painfully clear that the dump is completely legal in all ways.
Discussions about game copiers are the sort of thing to avoid. In some jurisdictions they are legal as they have legitimate uses, but in other countries they are illegal. So to play it safe, avoid mentioning game copiers.
Discussions about flash carts are the sort of thing to avoid. In some jurisdictions they are legal as they have legitimate uses, but in other countries they are illegal. So to play it safe, avoid mentioning flash carts/cards.
Discussions about how to conduct copyright violations (illegal distribution and copying of ROMs) are prohibited.
Linking to sites which host such information or data is itself legal. But since the content of the sites is illegal, please refrain from linking to them.
Discussions about what the Internet Archive's staff does is completely allowed as it linking to it, as those actions are legally approved.
Keep in mind, much of what is uploaded to the Internet Archive is uploaded by the general public. But that which IA itself uploads, its staff knows it is completely in the clear about those things. Plus, unlike us, the Internet Archive has a DMCA exception [6], so it can store all the information it wants to, whatever the original source might be. This applies to books, movies, music, and yes, video games. IA got this exemption status from the United States Copyright Office [7], a division of the Library of Congress, because IA seeks to preserve knowledge and act as a museum, particularly preserving works which have been abandoned or need hardware or software "dongles" to work.

Finally, this very topic (the arcade game ROMs) and the previous topic about the 40 GiB of console ROMs from the earliest home consoles up through the SEGA Saturn have both been mentioned or discussed on this site in the past. [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]

[1] http://forum.digitpress.com/forum/faq.php?faq=basics#faq_roms

[2] http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/Sony_v_Bleem.htm
[3] http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/203_F3d_596.htm
[4] http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/77_FSupp2d_1116.htm

[5] http://pdroms.de/

[6] https://archive.org/about/dmca.php
[7] https://archive.org/post/82097/internet-archive-helps-secure-exemption-to-the-digital-millennium-copyright-act

[8] http://www.digitpress.com/news/classic-videogames.html
[9] http://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?170481
[10] http://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?170504
[11] http://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?171638
[12] http://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?172466

[JSoup]

Not to hijack the topic, but I thought of this the other day, it's been on my mind and it didn't seem worthy of it's own topic.


Discussions about prototypes, early versions of games, etc., are fine. However, talk of dumped games is probably better avoided, as while the individual who dumped them might own that particular copy of the game, it is unlikely he owns the copyright to the material in question. Obviously this would be determined by a case-by-case basis, but play it safe by avoiding talking about dumps unless it is painfully clear that the dump is completely legal in all ways.

In the past, we've had people attempt (or at least offer the idea of) calling up Square or Nintendo over prototype owners. Being that they are the owners by contract, anyone else is possessing it illegally. But wouldn't pawn shop law negate that? Pawn shop law can and has been applied to products procured via free market (like a pawn shop or flea market). I was reading a topic the other day on Debtorboards about a guy who bought something, then sold it before paying off the slip. Court upheld for the buyer that it didn't need to be returned as a matter of collections due to pawn shop law.

The general way pawn shop law works is once an item falls into the hands of a third party, the first party no longer has a claim of ownership (I'm positive one of our resident lawyers can extrapolate on this better than I). Wouldn't this mean any repos that have already been sold or traded among collectors is essentially protected?

[Tanooki]

Pawn shop law, that's interesting. I do know that pawn shops tend to have to hold onto items for X days before they can go out to the public. The reason being is if a company reports X item as stolen, and the police happen to 'find out' somehow that a pawn shop has it, then the pawn shop legally must turn over the stolen goods and lose their money on it too since the seller to them is gone.

I wonder if something like that could apply too. I'd wonder following that logic, if a company let's say Nintendo over the Earthbound NES protos found out I had had recently paid a couple grand for it on ebay and I had it. In theory, following that pawn shop logic, could they not come after me with a letter demanding return of stolen goods through their lawyers or the police, and since they are the rightful owners wouldn't I be out the game and probably the cash too?

[JSoup]

And the arcade get's larger:
http://www.pcgamer.com/nearly-2400-ms-dos-games-are-now-playable-in-your-browser/

[Tanooki]

Wow that's nuts. Fun Dune 2 is there as an example image.

I can see this emboldening the excuse mill around all those 'abandonware' sites around.

[Greg2600]

Very nice. Joystick support isn't so good, but I can't see to browse or search for individual games yet.

[Nz17]

Here is a convenient link for browsing all of the DOS games: https://archive.org/search.php?query=collection%3Asoftwarelibrary_msdo s_games&sort=-publicdate It "might" take you a while to go through them all... at 50 listings per page, there are still 46 pages to go through before you get to the last. Don't worry, John Madden Football (1989) is on page 31. Here, let me save you the trouble of finding it: https://archive.org/details/msdos_John_Madden_Football_1989

[Tanooki]

I'm finding stuff on there the developers still make a little scratch on since they peddle it cheaply and tweaked to work on modern systems over at GoG.com so I wonder how long until they (and if they) get a C&D letter on some things. The EA stuff alone should be an issue.

[Nz17]

I'm finding stuff on there the developers still make a little scratch on since they peddle it cheaply and tweaked to work on modern systems over at GoG.com so I wonder how long until they (and if they) get a C&D letter on some things. The EA stuff alone should be an issue.

I feel like I'm going to have repeat myself until the end of the universe when I explain this to people, but the Internet Archive has a DMCA exemption from the U.S. Library of Congress. In effect, it is a copyright exception from the federal government which means that the Internet Archive can host whatever it wants within certain reasonable limits. "The developers" never gave IA permission to do anything - Uncle Sam did, and he outranks the developers and publishers combined. The Feds enforce copyright only when they want, and while they enforce it most of the time, the Internet Archive has a long and respected existence and applied for an exception, so IA was granted one, meaning they are outside the reach of most copyright enforcement. (Think "diplomatic immunity," though it is not quite the same thing.) EA and others don't have a legal foot to stand on about any of this.

For more information, see my many posts on the Retrogaming Roundtable about the Internet Archive or visit this forum's FAQ where I made a nice write-up about it.

[Greg2600]

Cool, I did not know they had that exception from the LoC. The browsing system is still terrible. Sheesh!

[Tanooki]

Well if they're absolved that cleanly that really throws a wrench into selling old games if this ever got out into the mainstream as common knowledge. I think it would put a dent in GoG and other sites selling old games a bit if you could just snap them up and all the paperwork in PDF format free. It's a hell of a service that's for sure.

[Nz17]

Well, companies can still file take-down requests with the Internet Archive, but it is pretty much up to the Archive to act on them or not. Usually, if something is somehow still being sold in a digital or analog form where the rights holder benefits (A.K.A. not the second-hand market), the IA will play nice and remove the content from their site. But unlike most people and groups, instead of having to take an "everything is bad until we get approval for it from a developer or publisher" approach, they get to take an "everything is good until we get a request to remove it from a developer or publisher and we decide to comply" approach.