NA: Inappropriate usage of the Nintendo Seal and ESRB logo...

[stardust4ever]

Doing a quick repost of my previous rant that got deleted from NA this morning by an "anonymous" moderator:

Google Cache:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:GVFG4gjHvrUJ:nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm%3Fcatid%3D31%26threadid%3D137620%2 6StartRow%3D1+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

I thought it needed to be discussed so I'm reposting it here. NA moderators seem to have voted on the issue with the delete key, but I feel it's a very widespread problem with repros and homebrews. Instead of locking it they just vaporized it. No warning, PMs, nothing. Not gonna bring it up the topic again on NA lest they decide to give me the ban-hammer like so many others... :puppydogeyes:


I've seen countless instances of the official Nintendo Seal, official Sega Seal, etc, as well as ESRB logos stuck on just about everything. No unlicensed company was stupid enough to do this back in the day, so why are we doing it now?

I understand that repros and hacks are in kind of a gray area as far as copyright goes. Technically, we are distributing orphaned games and derivative works that we do not hold the rights to. I also understand that it is a fantasy by many gamers that these titles could possibly have been released back in the day, and artists may be inspired to create label and box art to reflect this fantasy.

Secondly, the quality seals and ratings logos were created by game companies and governing bodies to let consumers know that the product was/is a legitamate and fully endorsed product. With all the outcry over the market being flooded with "fake" games, why on Earth are we contributing to this "pool" of fakes by cloning the logos and styles of the originals?

Shouldn't repro makers try to distinguish their product from genuine original games? Making slight modifications to the Seal, for example RetroUSB's Sealy Computing logo, while cute, still don't cut it. At first glance, a total stranger may be fooled.

I'm thinking in the long term if repro makers continue to harvest old carts and unwanted games to make their hacks and repros, these games will eventually leave the hands of their original collectors and begin to trickle into the used games market. So 20 years from now, how will someone new to collecting know whether or not a game like Terranigma or Star Ocean or Secret of Mana 2 or Earthbound Zero is an authentic original game or just another repro, if there's nothing to distinguish it from real game carts?

Finally, I'd like to focus my attention on the Homebrew market. Homebrews are much like vintage unlicensed games in that they are produced without the approval of Nintendo, Sega, Atari, or whomever produced the console. In that regard, homebrews are really the only form of modern reproduction that don't violate anyone's rights. Yet homebrew game makers, more often than not, have chosen to violate trademark laws by including quality seals and ERSB logos when the games are authorized by neither the companies or governing ratings boards to do so.

Yes, repros are obviously violating copyright laws 99% of the time, but many homebrewers are often guilty of trademark dilution by using the company seals and logos on otherwise 100% non-offending games. There was an excellent thread very active a couple years back entitled "repros are illegal" which was a very enlightening thread, but as a homebrew and occasional repro/hack collector, the mis-usage of corporate logos bothers me.

If I had my choice, I would opt for cartridge lables without the offending trademarks on them, but whenever I purchase a homebrew or repro from a supplier, I have little choice but to buy it with the offending labels, and I'm not so anal retentive that I'm going to print out my own custom labels on low-quality printer stock to replace the glossy professionally printed repro labels. I simply feel that official logos, branding, styles, or their look-a-likes should not be used on unofficial merchandice, whether bootleg or homebrew.

Surely others gamers/collectors exist who are bothered at least a little by all the rampant brand dilution...

What are you guys opins on this? Discuss...

[Tanooki]

That's because the NA gestapo refuses to allow discussion of anything that may impact them helping increase the ever higher prices put to games because it could be somehow used or inspiring to someone to make a knockoff.

I really don't care if someone uses it, but I can see also why someone may get upset by it. The reason back in the day it wasn't done was that it was then in direct competition for market share with a living console and had someone at Tengen or AVE, etc tried that they would have been sued into the stone age by the NOA lawyer shark pit. Today with the systems dead and them having enough to worry about with their larger problems they wouldn't bother wasting time on someone making pretty labels with their past seal of quality on it. Many repro(bootleg) makers don't put them on there, or they do put their own logo too or write annoyingly reproduction through the label so it's not I'd think all that wide spread and it would be the hobby level creator or small beans project side guy that would do such a thing. Personally I'd rather have a game that fakes looking right than some tacky logo from a nobody who makes illegal games like a sore thumb on the sticker. I've created a few SNES labels in the past that are dead ringers for originals, one of my early ones I have here on a SNES-US version cart of that SDF Macross game and it's a gem.

[Tupin]

I've only seen it as a parody, like a "Seal of Quality" that had a literal seal on it. People are actually putting ESRB ratings and the actual Seal of Quality on their games?

[sfchakan]

I've only seen it as a parody, like a "Seal of Quality" that had a literal seal on it.

I'd love retarded shit like this in place of the official seal. Maybe a logo for the Repromaker themselves that isn't jarring, but noticeable?

[Leo_A]

Unless they're reproducing something that actually exists and is valuable, in effect producing a counterfeit with the likely aim of ripping some unsuspecting person off, I have no issue with a homebrew manufacturer aiming for authenticity with something like a homebrew, translation, prototype, etc.

[dra600n]

Your thread on NA is still there...

Tanooki, you're just pissed at NA because they refused to deal with your nonsense anymore and aren't welcome back. Like DP, NA has some valuable resources, and your unwarranted bashing is quite tiresome.

Anyway, the esrb rating doesn't mean a whole lot these days, especially when most places I've seen don't card young look people when buying AO or M rated games, and it's an aesthetic thing. Some people also use it to give an idea of the target audience for a homebrew, and repros (translated games, not rom hacks) most likely had a seal of quality and esrb rating anyway, so it's not really a huge concern, especially if the original piece had both.

Of all the things to be concerned about with repros and pirates, I would think this would be the absolute last thing to be concerned with lol

[xelement5x]

I'm sure there is a grey area no matter what. It's just repro makers weighing whether the ESRB or the manufacturer would come down on them for it. Those who are doing it as an enterprise seem to be more careful about it than others though.

A great example I noticed that was not infringing on anything was Nightmare Busters.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5608/14935173724_4b61d3c787_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oKLEPf)

It looks verrrrry similar to an actual SNES box, but you can notice the differences and lack of logos since SFT is a commercial enterprise and doesn't want to risk backlash on using logos that they have no right to.

[Tanooki]

Piko Interactive has boxes much the same but oddly not consistent. One of them does have the ESRB rating and things, but the games there are not even homebrew they're licensed product from the developer so it's a differing situation there too. https://www.pikointeractive.com/store.html#!/Super-Nintendo-Games/c/9430344/offset=0&sort=normal

[kai123]

I would think flash carts would have killed most of the market for repros by now.

[Gentlegamer]

I'm sure there is a grey area no matter what. It's just repro makers weighing whether the ESRB or the manufacturer would come down on them for it. Those who are doing it as an enterprise seem to be more careful about it than others though.

A great example I noticed that was not infringing on anything was Nightmare Busters.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5608/14935173724_4b61d3c787_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oKLEPf)

It looks verrrrry similar to an actual SNES box, but you can notice the differences and lack of logos since SFT is a commercial enterprise and doesn't want to risk backlash on using logos that they have no right to.

Did they figure out what the original SNES logo font was? I've been trying to figure that out for ages.

[stardust4ever]

I've only seen it as a parody, like a "Seal of Quality" that had a literal seal on it. People are actually putting ESRB ratings and the actual Seal of Quality on their games?
Here's one from a Piko homebrew. Honestly he's trying to go legit getting licenses for unreleased games as well as legit homebrews, so I'm surprized he would use it.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.ecwid.com/images/2585222/222197025.jpg

Also I think parody labels are fine, but at least half the time, especially with repros, it's an exact duplicate.


Piko Interactive has boxes much the same but oddly not consistent. One of them does have the ESRB rating and things, but the games there are not even homebrew they're licensed product from the developer so it's a differing situation there too. https://www.pikointeractive.com/store.html#!/Super-Nintendo-Games/c/9430344/offset=0&sort=normal
Yeah here's another I missed.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.ecwid.com/images/2585222/217716305.jpg
In the case of Mr Bloopey, it was an unreleased game from back in the day. I don't know if the ESRB had rated it at one point or not but if so the KA rating fits the time period.

Honestly I don't know if Piko is actually getting his games rated or not, probably not as the fees would cost more than a small operation such as himself can afford. I guess there's nothing preventing a homebrewer from submitting an application. Creepy Bird still should not have the Nintendo Seal of Quality printed on the box.

Also if you're a fan of Donkey Kong, I would definitely pick up Classic Kong. Nintendo issued a C&D last year forcing AtariAge to take down Princess Rescue (Super Mario 2600) from the AA store because it "copied" Music and sprites from Super Mario Bros series, despite all the names were changed. I think there's a possibility Nintendo could strike again. Going after homebrewers just seems wrong with so many bootleggers out there.

No offense to anyone making repros; I love you guys...


Your thread on NA is still there...No, I linked to the Google cache, showing 3 posts. It will probably be gone too after a week or so...


Anyway, the esrb rating doesn't mean a whole lot these days, especially when most places I've seen don't card young look people when buying AO or M rated games, and it's an aesthetic thing. Some people also use it to give an idea of the target audience for a homebrew, and repros (translated games, not rom hacks) most likely had a seal of quality and esrb rating anyway, so it's not really a huge concern, especially if the original piece had both.
You know as well as I do people can make unofficial logos or disclaimers for that that serve the same purpose. My Fix It Felix Sr. cart (which you made for me; thank you) has a completely non-infringing "General Audiences" logo on it. I also think the "unofficial" Sega seal you used is cool too. Maybe it could be made a bit more different from the original art but it's fine either way as it's not an exact copy.


I'm sure there is a grey area no matter what. It's just repro makers weighing whether the ESRB or the manufacturer would come down on them for it. Those who are doing it as an enterprise seem to be more careful about it than others though.

A great example I noticed that was not infringing on anything was Nightmare Busters.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5608/14935173724_4b61d3c787_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oKLEPf)

It looks verrrrry similar to an actual SNES box, but you can notice the differences and lack of logos since SFT is a commercial enterprise and doesn't want to risk backlash on using logos that they have no right to.That's a great-looking boxart. It would blend itn well with original games but doesn't use anyone else's property in the artwork.

[dra600n]

No, I linked to the Google cache, showing 3 posts. It will probably be gone too after a week or so...

You know as well as I do people can make unofficial logos or disclaimers for that that serve the same purpose. My Fix It Felix Sr. cart (which you made for me; thank you) has a completely non-infringing "General Audiences" logo on it. I also think the "unofficial" Sega seal you used is cool too. Maybe it could be made a bit more different from the original art but it's fine either way as it's not an exact copy.


I'm confused, which thread? I thought you were talking about this same thread you started on NA? If that's not the one you're referring to, then my apologies :) (I'm assuming that's the case as you also posted in the other one a little while ago as well :P)

And yea, people can, why they don't? Probably want to keep it uniform with the rest of the stuff is my guess. The Felix example is ironic :P

[stardust4ever]

I'm confused, which thread? I thought you were talking about this same thread you started on NA? If that's not the one you're referring to, then my apologies :) (I'm assuming that's the case as you also posted in the other one a little while ago as well :P)

And yea, people can, why they don't? Probably want to keep it uniform with the rest of the stuff is my guess. The Felix example is ironic :PSomeone moved it. Apparently unlike every other forum, topic links get broken when their moved around.:oops:

[Pikointeractive]

Whats up!

We don't use the ESRP Logo on actual printed boxes, only on mock up ones.

When the games are printed all Nintendo Logos and the like have to be taken off.

The mock ups are not for sale so we can use them.

[dra600n]

Someone moved it. Apparently unlike every other forum, topic links get broken when their moved around.:oops:

It's all good buddy :) thanks for clearing that up

[ProjectCamaro]

I think it'd be cool to make a home brew version of the seal and to use that.

[Rickstilwell1]

If it's a repro of a Japanese game translated into English or just converted to the 72 pin cart type on NES it kind of makes sense to use the Nintendo seal since they allowed the game to be officially published in Japan. If it's an original work it is kind of dumb because then Nintendo had nothing to do with its release and didn't approve the quality. Codemasters/Camerica and Tengen had a couple nice games each but as awesome as they were they couldn't just slap Nintendo's seal on there and get away with it. On the other hand, Sega would put their Genesis seal of quality on Tengen's stuff because they gave them permission for stuff like that awesome Ms. Pac-Man port.

Actually that would be really funny to see people take unlicensed NES games out of their odd shaped carts and put them in a regular NES cart with a reprinted label that actually has an end label, just so the carts fit more smoothly when stacked. Just use a game that has its label totally missing or torn up. You wouldn't even have to damage the original cart's plastic and could return the board to it anytime. Have you ever seen anyone do that before?

[Tanooki]

I think you're right, I don't see an issue with the seal, but the idea I think with the Japanese stuff is that some people could make the claim that someone will put the seal on there and make a perfect label and then try and pass it off as a legit 'rare' cart using the usual scummy tactics you see on ebay to do it for high dollar values. Personally with certain things I get fairly perfectionist/obsessive about it so if I were having a 'fake' cart I'd want it to look as retail as possible so it fits in and doesn't stick out regardless of the region. I just am beyond caring and getting upset about it because they're just old dead games and any way you wrap it up the shit is equally illegal warez anyway if the game came out here, in the PAL area (like Parodius NES) or from Japan. It's up to the buyer to know if someone is a fake or not whatever the object is, and beyond that if they care it's a solidly copied copy or a pos and what they value it at.

I love your idea there Rick. Take some ghetto release like a Color Dreams game and make a Nintendo quality copy of the label that'll fit into a repurposed (or hopefully) new copy mold shell and shove it in there. I know they're a little different so it would have to be machined or dremeled to fit potentially, but it would be pretty cool. I never liked seeing those stick out games on my shelf that don't match from Tengen but I like them so they stay. If I still felt buying old NES games was reasonable I'd love at some rate to get a set of those, at least loose, preferred with the manual (at least I have Tetris out of the way.)

[sfchakan]

I think it's pretty dirty and disingenuous to just say "lol buyer beware" with that shit.

Putting out a repro that looks 100% legit to people who don't know any better is just promoting shady behavior in the future.

[Tanooki]

And I make no illusions that I have no issue with it. People need to be aware of what they're buying and if they just are the type to blindly click or pick something up on a shelf without asking questions that's their gamble to handle. Good people shouldn't buy bad goods they don't want, but equally just as right good people who want something that looks right to them should have access to it. Collecting or whatever it may be far from that should be not other peoples business to meddle in someone elses affairs because goods aren't collective, communist like ideals shouldn't be enforced on people as a punishment due to a few dicks that will take advantage of others.

[Gameguy]

I don't think people should just have the right to make pirated or counterfit games or products in general just because they want to, just wanting something isn't enough of a valid reason. Especially when so many people are just making these to profit on. Someone was making copies of Stadium Events awhile back.

I've run into enough parents who bought pirated GBA games that they thought were legit because they were sold used at Gamestop. Not everyone who buys these things knows what to look for, plenty of people buy these as gifts for others. At the very least they shouldn't look near identical to legit versions.

[Tanooki]

I'm curious had no one pointed out to them they were pirates, would they have been happy with it like if the battery wasn't junk or some lame hack?

I think we're just going to disagree on this one and going in circles is just going to piss people off. I just know if I had the funding I'd be making such things (labels) for games as I have a few in not the best shape and I'd be happy to share them with others who would want to run their own. Earlier this year I did a test run using Ogre Battle and was able to make a spotless rendering it of it and would have taken it to another SNES game I have in not the best shape if I had the printer or a printer who would do it due to that test. The fact is for everyone who doesn't have the hardware like myself there are others who do and it's all over the place as it is anyway and ebay seems fit to leave all of it there as do other sources so it's a foregone conclusion really not worth getting furious and controlling over.

[stardust4ever]

On thing I kinda disagree with is people selling repros of Japanese/PAL titles. Why pay $40 for a Parodius reproduction when you can get the original from eBay or Japan Game Stock for like 1000-1500 yen? ($10-$15 USD). I busted out the tabs on my SNES a long time ago and can freely play Japanese Super Fami games on it. I also have adapters I can use on my NES, as well as an AV Famicom I can use as well. If you wanna play Japanes games, you can get them legitamately. I can see the point in translation repros, but most non-rpg games you can figure out how to play them without the need to learn Japanese.

Honestly, aside from a few creative Mario hacks, I'm getting away from repros and leaning towards homebrews and imports now.

@Piko: Why not just display the original boxart on your site instead of using a mockup? Place a "Piko Interactive" watermark text on the image and keep it low resolution so people can't steal it. Makes no sense you aren't using an image that represents what people are buying. Sorry to get you mixed up in this.

[Tanooki]

I agree with you on that entirely on the ripping off Japanese games, yet despite that I have a pair of them due to trade deals (Kid Dracula, Gradius 2 retrozone both) but I'd not buy that, it's just shameless warez when you can get a real cart. I could have saved some on a few other games but almost everything I have that is warezed costs less in famicom form and either R5 or honeybee they're doable (and with IPS R5 will put in the english too.)


How are you defining repros though stardust? The warezy repro, of the unique good newly licensed stuff Piko does that's totally legit? His stuff blurs the warezy lines made on 'repro' seeing that some of it is expired licensed he picked up, others are homebrews he picked up, yet both are licensed and as such are reproductions in the HONEST sense of the word.

[stardust4ever]

How are you defining repros though stardust? The warezy repro, of the unique good newly licensed stuff Piko does that's totally legit? His stuff blurs the warezy lines made on 'repro' seeing that some of it is expired licensed he picked up, others are homebrews he picked up, yet both are licensed and as such are reproductions in the HONEST sense of the word.

They are licensed by the content owners yes, but not by Nintendo. And even if the games got an ESRB rating back in the day prior to release, I'm not sure if they would still be eligible to use the logo. Even 16 and 64 bit vintage games that got released during the ESRB ratings era had to resubmit the games to the ESRB ratings board to be released on Virtual Console.

[Tanooki]

So you're sticking to the topic complaining about the ESRB box, I thought it was about repros existing. I was going off that one line of you getting away from it for homebrew and import.

Ultimately it never once mattered if it was licensed by Nintendo, it's a weird feeling to even consider that given you've had unlicensed games going back with them since the NES from Tengen notably, then there's Color Dreams/WT/Bunch, AVE, etc.

[stardust4ever]

People are delving into this way more than they should. I do not believe the official seals of Sega, Nintendo, ect or official ratings logos should be used without permission. Yes, I'm aware it's a huge contradiction to argue that the logos cannot or should not be used when the game code itself is in violation of IP laws. But by not utilizing the logos, it makes it easier to differentiate between unlicensed and official product. Homebrews are unlicensed by default and shouldn't use the logo. Repros/hacks/bootlegs shouldn't use the logos either as that can cause some confusion years down the road as to whether it is a legitamate release. Collectors may think this concept is stupid, but there are many uninformed buyers. Don't use official logos on your product so it won't cause confusion further down the line.

Lastly, Piko, I am sorry for getting you mixed up in all of this, but you really shouldn't be using mockups to sell your product if the production artwork does not match the thumbnail. Take the final boxart and water mark it. Upload it at low resolution so it won't look good printed.

[sfchakan]

I can just see it now. In 5-10 years, someone brings in an official-looking repro to Pawn Stars.

Seller: "This is the rarest SNES game ever, only 10 were made."
Chum Lee: "Dang, that's worth, like $5,000!"

[Tanooki]

I could see that, they somehow allowed Pat to show up on there to attention whore and sell nothing for a bit of 15min of cable fame. I can see it now, Retrozone Konami Collection of I'm Kid Dracula and Gradius II - very low print, maybe a hundred made and they're like brand new and I only want $5K for them. :D

[JSoup]

Tanooki, you're just pissed at NA because they refused to deal with your nonsense anymore and aren't welcome back. Like DP, NA has some valuable resources, and your unwarranted bashing is quite tiresome.

None of this makes him wrong, you realize, yes?
Back to your hole, NA troll.


I can just see it now. In 5-10 years, someone brings in an official-looking repro to Pawn Stars.

Seller: "This is the rarest SNES game ever, only 10 were made."
Chum Lee: "Dang, that's worth, like $5,000!"

The prices probably wouldn't be that high, but I can see this happening too. Hell, it already happens, there are already homebrew titles at that go for $200+ due to purposefully limited runs.

[stardust4ever]

The prices probably wouldn't be that high, but I can see this happening too. Hell, it already happens, there are already homebrew titles at that go for $200+ due to purposefully limited runs.
8-bit Xmas 2008 recently sold for $1000 :o
So yeah, I could see this happening in a few years...

[ProjectCamaro]

8-bit Xmas 2008 recently sold for $1000 :o
So yeah, I could see this happening in a few years...

Those go for crazy prices. They are cool but not that cool.

[Tanooki]

Hah wow soup, quoted the NA admin's boyfriend there? He's been on ignore since his trolling blowup months ago. I'm so over their control freak socialism in collecting games gestapo drama. And you're right, I'm not wrong and it angers the site trolls or there would be no comment.

You're also right about those homebrew and it seems primarily tied to NA too. I've seen enough discussions there when people saying they're going to make a game, and you seem to see the same faces pop up like that old Futurama meme of Fry 'shut up and take my money' image where they want a limited run of 5, 10, 25 and get right on the list in a matter of minutes and the stuff is gone. You give it 6-12 months or maybe sometimes longer and anyone who missed out or new people into it are getting into some Flintstones looking housewife cat fight over the damn things paying higher than the original price. That stuff should never be supported as it just adds to the problem.

Aside from the fact most of the homebrew I've touched has been disappointing, there have been a few but I just don't bother as it's a circus. What little I have of warez..err 'repros' have been basically trades (Gradius 2), a favor from a friend (Starfox2/Macross SNES), or a free surprise (JD, one of the few cool NA mods with Kid Dracula.)

[stardust4ever]

Hah wow soup, quoted the NA admin's boyfriend there? He's been on ignore since his trolling blowup months ago. I'm so over their control freak socialism in collecting games gestapo drama. And you're right, I'm not wrong and it angers the site trolls or there would be no comment.

You're also right about those homebrew and it seems primarily tied to NA too. I've seen enough discussions there when people saying they're going to make a game, and you seem to see the same faces pop up like that old Futurama meme of Fry 'shut up and take my money' image where they want a limited run of 5, 10, 25 and get right on the list in a matter of minutes and the stuff is gone. You give it 6-12 months or maybe sometimes longer and anyone who missed out or new people into it are getting into some Flintstones looking housewife cat fight over the damn things paying higher than the original price. That stuff should never be supported as it just adds to the problem.

Aside from the fact most of the homebrew I've touched has been disappointing, there have been a few but I just don't bother as it's a circus. What little I have of warez..err 'repros' have been basically trades (Gradius 2), a favor from a friend (Starfox2/Macross SNES), or a free surprise (JD, one of the few cool NA mods with Kid Dracula.)To be completely fair, Tanooki, I'm not really in favor of Limited Edition homebrew either. Whenever an LE gets released, there's always that 50/50 shot of an RE version to follow. In all honesty, I'd prefer the RE side of things, but you never know if an RE will ever happen, so it's a catch-22 situation: jump on the LE or risk never getting it at all in the event the RE never comes. Hell sometimes even the RE edition gets added features or bugfixes the LE didn't. In such case I would actually be willing to swap my LE for an RE for a small fee.

Also there is much nitpicking, such as first in line gets first choice of number. So some people request an LE with random number say #37 or #23, lowest or highest available, then every release afterwards has to be the same number so they can match cousin pairs of unrelated LE homebrews on the shelf. IMO this is bullcrap. In nearly every other collectible hobby, serials are handed out on a first come first serve basis, ie whether you're #1 or #499, if you're the umteenth person to order the item, you get the umteenth serial. Typically once a run sells out, the collector value gets a slight advantage based on lower serial, typically very low serials get a larger price advantage, especially #1s or "artists proofs", what we would more commonly refer to in game collecting as homebrew "prototypes".

[JSoup]

8-bit Xmas 2008 recently sold for $1000 :o
So yeah, I could see this happening in a few years...

I really thought/hoped you were exaggerating until I looked it up for myself.
This hobby has jumped the shark.

[Polygon]

It's simple. If it wasn't originally licensed by Nintendo it shouldn't have the seal on it.

[bb_hood]

You're also right about those homebrew and it seems primarily tied to NA too. I've seen enough discussions there when people saying they're going to make a game, and you seem to see the same faces pop up like that old Futurama meme of Fry 'shut up and take my money' image where they want a limited run of 5, 10, 25 and get right on the list in a matter of minutes and the stuff is gone. You give it 6-12 months or maybe sometimes longer and anyone who missed out or new people into it are getting into some Flintstones looking housewife cat fight over the damn things paying higher than the original price. That stuff should never be supported as it just adds to the problem.



Wait, whats the problem again? People blowing their money on homemade nintendo games?
If people want to do limited runs or numbered runs of games to hype up sales then so what? People who have common sense will see through the hype.

[dra600n]

I really thought/hoped you were exaggerating until I looked it up for myself.
This hobby has jumped the shark.

Don't forget Membler's Garage Cart is also up there in price as well. I think I just saw one listed for $1600 (unsure if it sold or not), but I recall one of the last ones selling at, or over, $800.

[stardust4ever]

I really thought/hoped you were exaggerating until I looked it up for myself.
This hobby has jumped the shark.
Not really sure if it's jumped the shark persay, but I think it speaks volumes to why limited releases are not a good idea. Either continue selling carts or release the ROM. One thing I love about the AtariAge homebrews is they rarely go out of stock or get discontinued. I wish I could say the same for NES and other popular consoles.


It's simple. If it wasn't originally licensed by Nintendo it shouldn't have the seal on it.
Thank you! :wink 2:


Don't forget Membler's Garage Cart is also up there in price as well. I think I just saw one listed for $1600 (unsure if it sold or not), but I recall one of the last ones selling at, or over, $800.I remember readig about the garage cart. Not really sure what it actually was, but Memblers was a very well known NES hacker a few years back, so that adds some notoriety to it if they were made by him.

[Gameguy]

I can just see it now. In 5-10 years, someone brings in an official-looking repro to Pawn Stars.

Seller: "This is the rarest SNES game ever, only 10 were made."
Chum Lee: "Dang, that's worth, like $5,000!"
They'll probably call Pat back to be their expert. He was on 1000 Ways to Die as an expert so it's bound to happen.


Also there is much nitpicking, such as first in line gets first choice of number. So some people request an LE with random number say #37 or #23, lowest or highest available, then every release afterwards has to be the same number so they can match cousin pairs of unrelated LE homebrews on the shelf. IMO this is bullcrap. In nearly every other collectible hobby, serials are handed out on a first come first serve basis, ie whether you're #1 or #499, if you're the umteenth person to order the item, you get the umteenth serial. Typically once a run sells out, the collector value gets a slight advantage based on lower serial, typically very low serials get a larger price advantage, especially #1s or "artists proofs", what we would more commonly refer to in game collecting as homebrew "prototypes".
The trick is to make multiple copies of the game with the same serial number, like 10 copies of #001 or 5 copies of #555. Who would really know how many copies of the game are made when they're all hand made custom work?

[Tanooki]

They'll probably call Pat back to be their expert. He was on 1000 Ways to Die as an expert so it's bound to happen.?

Can't be too much of an expert at a 1000 ways to die, he's still making annoying videos. :)

[stardust4ever]

Can't be too much of an expert at a 1000 ways to die, he's still making annoying videos. :)

Yeah, you can be an expert on "how to die once" - they even have the Darwin Awards for that if your method is creative enough. Die twice, or 1000 times, not so much...
:rockets:

[Tanooki]

That's true I have one of those books. Neutering yourself before children gets you the award and the same effect outside of having to tolerate the award winner still being around as the line can't carry on.

[xelement5x]

Whats up!

We don't use the ESRP Logo on actual printed boxes, only on mock up ones.

When the games are printed all Nintendo Logos and the like have to be taken off.

The mock ups are not for sale so we can use them.


Thanks for chiming in Piko!

Like I figured, guys like you and Brandon who are making a business out of this are careful not to use official logos. I love the creative ways you guys come up with making boxart that is very close, but not exactly the same as the original ;)

[Tanooki]

It should be cleared up though, considering he's got to have the masters for the box and label art, replacement wouldn't be hard, just a little bit of work.

[stardust4ever]

It should be cleared up though, considering he's got to have the masters for the box and label art, replacement wouldn't be hard, just a little bit of work.IMHO, he really shouldn't be displaying the logos on his website, even if the boxart mockup is fake.

[drunk3nj3sus]

Don't think it's appropriate and it's a pretty shady business practice, even if the guys are honest with what they're selling and don't falsely advertise them as official games they're indirectly enabling shiesters and scam-artists. "Mock ups" of what the game "would" look like if it was officially released serve no legitimate purpose either as it's pretty easy to picture where the logo's would go.

In my opinion the only reason to purchase repro carts is if it's something that you wanna play and it can't easily be played otherwise and as far as homebrew games are their any even worth playing besides the battle kid games? all the other ones i've seen were action 52-esque, trying to make some "snake" style game look official is just laughable.

I imagine the "limited" run of the official looking CIB reproduction/homebrew carts will prove to be a fad, anything that's not officially released/licensed by a company with a reputation to worry about is a sketchy investment, unlicensed memorabilia and reproductions of collectables from a century ago appear all the time on pawn stars & they're not worth anything.

[Tanooki]

In my opinion the only reason to purchase repro carts is if it's something that you wanna play and it can't easily be played otherwise and as far as homebrew games are their any even worth playing besides the battle kid games? all the other ones i've seen were action 52-esque, trying to make some "snake" style game look official is just laughable.

I imagine the "limited" run of the official looking CIB reproduction/homebrew carts will prove to be a fad, anything that's not officially released/licensed by a company with a reputation to worry about is a sketchy investment, unlicensed memorabilia and reproductions of collectables from a century ago appear all the time on pawn stars & they're not worth anything.

You're confusing warez (bootlegs) as repros, which is what slimebag repro makers do to sucker people who don't get it. A real repro is a reproduction of a legit game with the proper permission and licensing behind it which Piko does. The stuff you see from TimeWalk, CoinHeaven, and various ebay types is all warez in a pretty wrapper to make theft look cool and on the level. You're likely correct about the limited run warez carts, it's a captive and very limited audience that'll know it's there or even give a damn about it so it probably will fall off once people stop caring.

[stardust4ever]

Don't think it's appropriate and it's a pretty shady business practice, even if the guys are honest with what they're selling and don't falsely advertise them as official games they're indirectly enabling shiesters and scam-artists. "Mock ups" of what the game "would" look like if it was officially released serve no legitimate purpose either as it's pretty easy to picture where the logo's would go.

In my opinion the only reason to purchase repro carts is if it's something that you wanna play and it can't easily be played otherwise and as far as homebrew games are their any even worth playing besides the battle kid games? all the other ones i've seen were action 52-esque, trying to make some "snake" style game look official is just laughable.

I imagine the "limited" run of the official looking CIB reproduction/homebrew carts will prove to be a fad, anything that's not officially released/licensed by a company with a reputation to worry about is a sketchy investment, unlicensed memorabilia and reproductions of collectables from a century ago appear all the time on pawn stars & they're not worth anything.One thing I disagree with your sentiment that homebrew games aren't fun or entertaining. If you disagree then don't buy. I've actually gotten more fun out of homebrew games than I have various repros, Some are short and arcade like while others are long and complex, just like various real games released during the lifespan of the console. Homebrews are just unlicensed games produced in small quantity years or decades after the console was discontinued.

[Koa Zo]

I didnt read the whole thread so dont know if this was mentioned, but Id bet my bottom dollar that the thread topc is largely why Timewalk Games ceased operation.

I loved their work, but shook my head at the fact that they used and reworked the actual Nintendo logo and seal of quality. And then when they released Do Re Mi Fantasy I was sure their days would be numbered. And sure enough it wasnt long before they went "poof" and dissapeared.

Timewalk was quite mute on the subject other to say their family was more important ...in other words: "we're about to get sued right into the poor house"

[Tanooki]

Timewalk was also tapped for that Duck Tales modern NES cartridge deal for the press in those lunchboxes for Duck Tales Remastered. Depending on the payoff they got and the contract terms, they could have been given a tidy sum to shut up and go away too.

[stardust4ever]

I didnt read the whole thread so dont know if this was mentioned, but Id bet my bottom dollar that the thread topc is largely why Timewalk Games ceased operation.

I loved their work, but shook my head at the fact that they used and reworked the actual Nintendo logo and seal of quality. And then when they released Do Re Mi Fantasy I was sure their days would be numbered. And sure enough it wasnt long before they went "poof" and dissapeared.

Timewalk was quite mute on the subject other to say their family was more important ...in other words: "we're about to get sued right into the poor house"Thing is, nearly all the garage repro makers are doing this. Guys like Piko, Infinite NES Lives, RetroUSB, and AtariAge are really the exception rather than the rule. Even so, RetroUSB is still selling copyrighted ROMs, even if they're now limited to VS games and occasional competition carts.

These other guys operating out of a home garage somewhere, tend to stay under the radar I think. If they get a Cease and Desist, I believe many of them just open up a new site and continue peddling their warez goods. I have a number of Repros and hacks; most of them have the offiticial Nintendo or Sega seal on it and it just annoys me.

Also I collect Famicom and Super Famicom, and I'm not into JRPGs, so if it was sold in Japan I just import it. A few of the games have English menus and those that don't are often simple enough to figure out, ie press "A" to jump and "B" to run. Also many Japanese games are cheaper as imports than as a $40 repro although there's the occasional expensive rare that's actually worth playing just like in the states.

[drunk3nj3sus]

You're confusing warez (bootlegs) as repros, which is what slimebag repro makers do to sucker people who don't get it. A real repro is a reproduction of a legit game with the proper permission and licensing behind it which Piko does. The stuff you see from TimeWalk, CoinHeaven, and various ebay types is all warez in a pretty wrapper to make theft look cool and on the level. You're likely correct about the limited run warez carts, it's a captive and very limited audience that'll know it's there or even give a damn about it so it probably will fall off once people stop caring.

No disrespect intended to them I just checked their site and they seem to be legit, but are their really any other "reproduction" makers like them who do things properly? even the retrozone guy who sells legit homebrew sells other peoples hacks and reproductions of the NWC and SNCC carts, but I stand by my assertion that the official looking "mock up" box art piko shows has no legit purpose and is imo a bad look since they do things the right way. Unfairly or not repro games rarely ever refer to what piko does. They actually only sell 1 game that was previously produced everything else they have are either homebrew or unreleased games so "reproduction" doesn't really fit them regardless.


One thing I disagree with your sentiment that homebrew games aren't fun or entertaining. If you disagree then don't buy. I've actually gotten more fun out of homebrew games than I have various repros, Some are short and arcade like while others are long and complex, just like various real games released during the lifespan of the console. Homebrews are just unlicensed games produced in small quantity years or decades after the console was discontinued.

What are some good NES, SMS, TG16, SNES, or Genesis homebrew games? I've seen a few good homebrew shmups on newer systems. But besides the 2 battle kid games most of the original homebrew I've played on older systems wasn't too impressive. Speaking of homebrew I've seen a good bit of "homebrew" ports which are typically either hacks of the code of a game that runs on a similar system to run on something else or copying the design of a simple atari game, people selling stuff like that as their own are pretty shady as well imo.

[Tanooki]

Which them are you talking about? Piko Interactive is about it, though in select cases Infiniteneslives is above board too since their stuff has gone into things like the Capcom DuckTales gold cart promo for the media but they're middleman part sellers. Retrozone which like Piko and INL uses their own new boards, but they're very gray area in their dealings because they both sell legal homebrew games, but they also sell pirated software (warez) too. If you go into their homebrew area (I question Leisure Suit Larry unless that was made free to exploit by the developer) you have legit homebrew made by amateurs, but then they have a 'reproduction' area which is just a bunch of stolen games from Nintendo (home/arcade), Konami, and previously others too which used to be listed in the discontinued area but is gone now (I bet web.archive.org would have it.)

I think most would agree using the Nintendo seal is sketchy, if not also using a true copy of their box art template if you're trying to run a business that's entirely above board (legal.) I'm aware pretty well what Piko does, did and is going to be getting into down the road since I've been helping him out off and on for a few years now. :)

[stardust4ever]

If you go into their homebrew area (I question Leisure Suit Larry unless that was made free to exploit by the developer) you have legit homebrew made by amateurs...No more or less infringing than Ultimate Frogger Champion IMO. The original developer of Leisure Suit Larry got wind of what Khan was doing with the game and gave it his blessing. This doesn't really say a lot though because the actual Leisure Suit Larry IP is likely owned by some other corporate entity all together. Study Hall is 100% original, but I'm sure someone could claim rights to the tribute tunes on the 80s jukebox somehow.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm sure a legal shark could find some violation with just about anything, down to the repro shell design and the ciclone chips which likely aren't DMCA compliant even if the patents are expired.

[Tanooki]

Yeah that's why I questioned it. I remember Al Lowe being pleased with it, but he never owned it, there was a company behind him Sierra, and in the last 5-ish years Codemasters has been the owner of the IP so that's totally illegal sketchy as is the Frogger game as that should be a Konami or Sega title (I never get it straight who has that one, Konami I think.)

Either way they get away with it, and I see no reason much to question too deeply as I own two of the standard retrozone piracy err 'repro' carts (Gradius II and Kid Dracula.)