Flash cart only collection?

[kai123]

I am thinking of turning my collection into a flash cart collection. I love playing on the original hardware and considering how well done a lot of the flash carts are these days it seems like a good investment of time vs hoping I can afford certain games or even being able to find it all. I can fill out the rest of my collection with carts that are not working on flash carts fairly easily. I feel like I spend more time looking for games vs playing them. I would love to buy Little Samson but that is a ton of money for one game. Thoughts?

[ProjectCamaro]

It's not a terrible way to go and I can understand your reasons.

Personally I prefer the original games, there's nothing like having a friend over and watching them go through all the carts looking for what they want to play. They always have a goofy smile on their face as they do it.

[bb_hood]

Ive got a pretty big collection of original games and I also have a flash cart collection that I play. No reason you cant have both. In my opinion flash carts are a good investment, you will get alot more use out of flash carts over single games.
Little Samson is a fun game but its just not worth the price it goes for.

[kai123]

It's not a terrible way to go and I can understand your reasons.

Personally I prefer the original games, there's nothing like having a friend over and watching them go through all the carts looking for what they want to play. They always have a goofy smile on their face as they do it.

Yea, I understand that completely. I do love the feeling of having the original cart and I wouldn't get rid of too many of the games I already have. I just can't afford the insane prices for some of the classics I didn't get to play when I was younger and it is just getting worse as time goes by.

[Rickstilwell1]

I basically just want to get back the cartridges of games I grew up with or used to have and really liked. For stuff new to me I just want to play on flash carts and buy the games I actually beat. For me beating a game is proof to me that I liked it enough to display it as part of my collection.

[theclaw]

It's alright for general titles. You will want to pay attention to games with specific issues.
Stuff like Pokemon transfers is designed for original copies.

[Rickstilwell1]

It's alright for general titles. You will want to pay attention to games with specific issues.
Stuff like Pokemon transfers is designed for original copies.

Pokémon transfers will still work with the smart card if you make it so it is the only title on that side of the memory partition and if the other partition doesn't currently have any games that use save batteries. It will act like an original cart and even load the border in Super Game Boy.

[Tron 2.0]

Flash cart are fine for saving money on expensive games beside how convenient they are to use.Flash Carts,are also a simple way to play games that have fan translations.

[jperryss]

I am thinking of turning my collection into a flash cart collection. I love playing on the original hardware and considering how well done a lot of the flash carts are these days it seems like a good investment of time vs hoping I can afford certain games or even being able to find it all. I can fill out the rest of my collection with carts that are not working on flash carts fairly easily. I feel like I spend more time looking for games vs playing them. I would love to buy Little Samson but that is a ton of money for one game. Thoughts?

This is what I did. For each system I held onto a small number of carts that either don't play nice on flash carts or had special meaning to me, and sold the rest. No regrets. :)

[kai123]

This is what I did. For each system I held onto a small number of carts that either don't play nice on flash carts or had special meaning to me, and sold the rest. No regrets. :)


That is exactly what I want to do.

[Tanooki]

Sometimes I keep going back into thinking I should get some everdrives, but then I remember how many I've had before between gameboy systems and the NES and how I'd use the a few weeks and they'd collect dust. The GBA one lasted the longest as I'd plop a lot of NES/GB-C emulator games on those to have fun with out of my collection. Outside of that I'd get all ADHD about stuff and could never focus on a game because all the freebies were a click away and I hated never finishing anything.

Maybe I'll do it at some point again, but as it is with games I've skimmed off so much in the last couple of years since moving back here I've hit this wall of uncomfortableness where if I take much more from the selection left I'd feel bad about it. I'm more inclined to start buying cheap ($1-20) SNES and GBA games at this rate to use and re-use than a flash cart, yet clearly if it were NES the amount you'd save not buying into the asinine pricing on Little Samson alone would save you a bundle.

[kai123]

My main reason for buying a flash cart is just for the expensive games. It is just out of hand on some of them. I want to play them not show how much money I can spend on a 20 year old game. Collecting has turned into more of a show than about the actual games.

[Zthun]

I am thinking of turning my collection into a flash cart collection. I love playing on the original hardware and considering how well done a lot of the flash carts are these days it seems like a good investment of time vs hoping I can afford certain games or even being able to find it all. I can fill out the rest of my collection with carts that are not working on flash carts fairly easily. I feel like I spend more time looking for games vs playing them. I would love to buy Little Samson but that is a ton of money for one game. Thoughts?

Honestly, I prefer the flash carts to the original carts. The original carts require maintenance or replacement after 10+ years. I've had some carts where the battery goes out, the pins get weak, etc, etc.

With a flash cart, all your save games are stored on the SD card and flashed into memory. If the flash cart dies, your games are still preserved and you can just buy another flash cart and transfer the SD card. The only reason I can think of not to have them is as follows:

1. You are a collector and you get butt hurt when you see things that possibly devalue your collection. Can't help you with this one.
2. You can't afford the 100-150 price tag. For this I would say it's way more expensive to buy the individual carts. If you look over time on how much you spend, you'll most likely find that the flash cart is way cheaper in the long run.
3. Some of the games don't run on the flash cart. Yes, this is true. And yes, some of those games are worthwhile. The best alternative is to have the actual cart for these, or you can look into the alternatives. For example, the Super Everdrive does not play Mega Man X2 or X3, but you can get a copy of Mega Man X Collection for PS2 for $13-$15 on eBay. I see this as a worthy sacrifice.

Overall, I love flash carts. I will purchase these over the original carts any day for the preservation of classic games, and I will always pick these over emulation for maximum compatibility while playing on original hardware.

[jperryss]

3. Some of the games don't run on the flash cart. Yes, this is true. And yes, some of those games are worthwhile. The best alternative is to have the actual cart for these, or you can look into the alternatives. For example, the Super Everdrive does not play Mega Man X2 or X3, but you can get a copy of Mega Man X Collection for PS2 for $13-$15 on eBay. I see this as a worthy sacrifice.

For those, you can also pick up the Japanese SFC versions for quite a bit cheaper than their US counterparts (though last I checked, prices were climbing on those also).

[celerystalker]

I may buy a flash cart at some point, but my mind isn't made up yet. It's very important to me to legally own my games, even though I know there's lots of grey area. I own most of the expensive stuff I want, but a flash cart just seems really convenient for transporting games. I can't see myself downloading games I don't own, because I really enjoy leafing through manuals and looking at boxes. It's just some vestigial nostalgic part of game culture for me. It'd be a lot cheaper than buying repro carts for fan translations of games I already paid for in Japanese...

[Tanooki]

It's very handy to transporting games. Like I said in my last post I've had a few handheld kits (1 GB/C one, 2 for GBA) over time and the one that always got the most was the GBA kit, the first got so much use as a way to transport games that weren't portable. I'd keep the contents up to date with the games I had carts for on the NES and GB/C and I could then take that thing wherever and play those games. I had either the SP or the GM MIcro and that's vastly smaller than the whole setup for either the GB/C and games and definitely the NES+TV and all those carts too. It has a nice gray area handy side to it.

There's only two honestly good reasons to download old games you don't have. You're trying before buying on actual hardware which I did for over a decade with stuff after I got out of hoarding roms a long time ago. The other would be the slimy tactics that drive up some games to such high prices that it's just far more economical and rational. Look what Little Samson goes for and realize you could cover a rent or mortgage payment on that, buy a laptop or a computer, and so many more far more regularly useful things with that.

[kai123]

I have been hunting for a Little Samson for a long while and I thought it was expensive years ago but now it is insane. It is like you said, I could buy something I would use everyday for the prices it goes for. I think I am going to bite the bullet and get the NES everdrive. I already have a lot of the core games I was looking for it is just those few really expensive ones that I just can't fathom paying that much for. This is the part where I wish Nintendo could just release a ton of these games on the Virtual Console. I know there would be licensing issues but it beats not making any money off of these old games that people are willing to pay hundreds for. Hell I could take a decent vacation for the price Little Samson goes for sometimes.

[Tanooki]

I'm strongly considering some everdrive options myself including the upcoming GBA version. Even when Samson had hit $400 like 3-4 years ago that was too much for me to tolerate so I wrote it off. The most I technically put out was about that much for Bonk but it was all tradebait, no cash involved and even that still sickens me I did it and I like that game a lot. I'd love to have a real copy of Samson and Panic Restaurant but the price has jumped the shark too much to justify the price when I'm on a tight budget. I've been pushing off my game collection over the last many months to get up to around the 2K mark for a gaming level do it yourself laptop that'll last me for years so to think I'd put almost half that into Samson is straight up retarded. More and more NES and SNES games are jumping into that over $100, closing into the $500-1000 level stuff now that's total insane collector pricing, not something for someone who is sane or on a budget. If you just want to play it, get lucky, trade some junk, or get a flash cart, or get someone to make a nice *ahem* 'repro' that fits with the collection.

Another option I'm considering for those 2 games are either Famicom releases or buying the infiniteneslives writer and boards and making my own Samson and others and using an excellent printer to make a solid copy label so it fits with things. I'm not entirely set on going into a flash kit again, I tend to get adhd with those things and nothing gets played or finished.

[Gentlegamer]

I'm not entirely set on going into a flash kit again, I tend to get adhd with those things and nothing gets played or finished.

Just put one game at a time on it. :D

[Tanooki]

Yeah no doubt. That was kind of my fault with the powerpak. Two things turned me off to that. The annoying as hell way save/loading works on it for battery games along with the crusty menu, but the big one is that I found an old CD I had of every legit release from the US market on there along with unique JP, JP-FDS, and PAL titles. That CF card was loaded and then some.

[Gatucaman]

Yeah no doubt. That was kind of my fault with the powerpak. Two things turned me off to that. The annoying as hell way save/loading works on it for battery games along with the crusty menu, but the big one is that I found an old CD I had of every legit release from the US market on there along with unique JP, JP-FDS, and PAL titles. That CF card was loaded and then some.

Kinda off-topic question.

I own the Super Everdrive and i been playing quite a lot of the games that no way in hell ill be able to afford at a good price, but......

is there any fear to breaking something by playing PAL games?, like Tin Head or the official PAL translations of that Twin Bee game on SFC or Terranigma in spanish?

[Tanooki]

No it shouldn't break anything. I don't remember hearing anything about stuff breaking and I'd think unless there's some oddity in the coding you shouldn't even need to patch them to work. I remember seeing people just placing the existing PAL game on a board with an NTSC region chip and functioning fine as a 'repro' bootleg.

[SparTonberry]

PAL games should run on an NTSC console without damaging it (assuming the game doesn't run its own lockout, I don't know if flashcarts will try to defeat it). They'll just be a bit glitchy, like running at the wrong speed.
I've run a few PAL NES games on my toploader with no damage (just the expected glitches).

[Pikkon]

If a pal game is programmed to run at 50hz then you will have problems,just depends on the game.

[Leo_A]

But it won't hurt anything. Playing or attempting to run European code on a North American SuperNes isn't going to cause any damage.

[bb_hood]

I've run a few PAL NES games on my toploader with no damage (just the expected glitches).

In my experience, pal games seem to work fine on toploaders but do not work on the original nintendo systems.

[Pikkon]

Toploaders lack a lockout chip,front loaders have a lockout chip but can be easily disabled.

[jperryss]

PAL games should run on an NTSC console without damaging it (assuming the game doesn't run its own lockout, I don't know if flashcarts will try to defeat it). They'll just be a bit glitchy, like running at the wrong speed.
I've run a few PAL NES games on my toploader with no damage (just the expected glitches).

I played through Terranigma on a SNES PowerPak, on a US SNES console, but I believe the ROM was patched for NTSC use.

[genesisguy]

I do my SNES gaming 100 percent on an original hardware but with a Super Everdrive. I made this jump earlier this year and sold off my 50 SNES carts and kept the 3 I bought in high school.

I have a NES Everdrive but close to 150 carts. It's getting harder and harder to find places for them, but I do like collecting them and I have bunch from when I was or a kid, or that friends had that I have some sentimental attachment to so I don't think I could sell those.

I have 150 Genesis carts. This takes up a lot of space and it's really not that much compared to some collectors out there. I do not have an Everdrive for the Genesis. But I'm thinking about picking one up. But as with the NES I some attachment to the Genesis carts and I could never see myself selling them all off.

[kai123]

I don't have a collection as extensive as his but I share his feelings so much. I know that auction he speaks of didn't go through tons of people just saw that it sold for that much and it was listed on ebay as a completed auction.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvUxMW20Mqk&list=UULEmTLrtuNd7gn98Lvl0_lA

[Tanooki]

I don't blame that guy one bit and I don't watch youtube stuff. I bet you anything before I scroll down you'll have some jerks insulting him saying he's an entitled brat that needs to pay up or go away. You know since that's the best defense to the abuses. Pay up like a twit or leave.

[kai123]

"i didn't even watched your video, and i find it really funny to see the title of you complaining it's too expensive, when you're showing off your extremely rare extremely expensive stuff on your channel, i'll go with my own, cliché, inevitable answer: Cry some more!"


One of the top comments on there. The guy has been collecting for a long time too and is super nice and level headed in his reviews. The mentality of some collectors is maddening. Gamster81 even makes homebrew games so he knows what he is talking about.

[Tanooki]

I let it run while I wrote that and listened in the background. He is right, the fun of collecting is dead, but at least the games are fun. There are so few pockets left of I guess 'resistance' that remain where you can still go out on a weekend morning, hit flea markets or craigslist locals and find stuff that is priced where most other areas predators would have picked up in moments to sell for the highest dollar. The land of cheap and plenty is pretty much shot when a game that came out less than after the SNES was on the market for a year goes for like $500 when he made that and I think it's now $800 roughly 6mo-9mo later and that's just sad. It won't be before long the cart goes for the quoted value of that CIB he spoke of around $1100. It's just not right but what can you do other than steal ROMS and run them on emulators or flash kits because paying someone that kind of cash is just insane because bad overpriced buys like that add to it. It's the ripple effect.

[Gentlegamer]

Speaking of flash carts, I just found out about the "MSU-1" chip for SNES games that can be played on SD2SNES. It allows games to be patched with "CD music" and FMV, as if the SNES CD system was real.

Check this out http://youtu.be/v788KslHvbU

[wizardofwor1975]

I have 150 Genesis carts. This takes up a lot of space and it's really not that much compared to some collectors out there. I do not have an Everdrive for the Genesis. But I'm thinking about picking one up. But as with the NES I some attachment to the Genesis carts and I could never see myself selling them all off.

I couldn't see myself selling my Genny carts or my SMS carts for that matter either. Personally, I have no interest in the Everdrive but to each his own.

[kai123]

It is not an issue of space or time but of price. I won't spend hundreds of dollars for one game. I will still look for games and buy the ones I want that are reasonable on price. It is tough to say a game is hard to find when it takes two seconds on ebay and a fat enough wallet.

[Gatucaman]

Ill find the "paradox" mind blowing

Buying a Flashcart and load it with roms is BAD and should be frown upon, and you are a thief and scum and not a "real retro gamer", but paying retarded prices and shoving the "supply and demand" excuse to people's throats and being a predatory re-seller who is just in for the "get rich quick" and do scummy acts on Ebay to the point that is not worth nor safe to bid in auctions (specially in US auctions) due to the tricks, and the shill-bidders and snipers and all that other crap that is just there to trick people, all of that is A-OK to the game community?

I would gladly buy a game that i already have loaded in my Super Everdrive if i can find it cheap or reasonable, but since its pretty much impossible in most parts these days (even in my country), well all i can say is....

Just let me play Clock Tower and Magical PopN in english without having to prostitute myself PLEASE! :shameful:

Now this is my SNES case tough..........NES on the other hand.

Should i get the Everdrive N8 even if there's 70 games left that i can play, even if i already own over 100 including famicom ones, (and mine actually has a unique selection and yes, i am a happy owner of games raging from uncommon to legit rare), because i got my Super everdrive because buying SNES games was a chore for me, (i only own 22 :P).

[Tanooki]

Kai and gautica posts there really hit it. Somehow its naughty and disgusting to own and use a flash kit because it is a form of robbery, but it is totally ok to have a non rare game with dozens of copies online where everyone colludes to make it many hundreds of dollars more than it really is worth just to poach some impatient fools wallet a lot thinner and thats ok. Really both of them arent and both are a form of screwing someone else. Yet thats ok to the gaming community, just like it is being a complete dick calling warez on a new chip on a new board or cannibalized board and calling it a fucking reproduction is totally acceptable too despite its straight up theft. Theyre all wrong, equally so, but people like to pick and choose what is ok to suit their needs.

Of the group I blame the flash kit users the least since most the stuff is just unobtainable to play on a legit system anymore for a reasonable price if it has some infamous notoriety behind it like your Samsons and Earthbound type stuff as they dont belong in the same rare cluster of games with a low print like Aerofighters does. Those kits can also run homebrew and other junk too so they do have their up side. The warez on a cart as a repro serves a purpose too but it would be great if people would stop lying about it being warez and being hyporcites about it. Now the wallet rape, theres no good reason other than greed and serves noone but the colluder any good on that stuff because it doesnt needto be that high, it just got there through manipulation of enough suckers.

[Zthun]

Ill find the "paradox" mind blowing

Buying a Flashcart and load it with roms is BAD and should be frown upon, and you are a thief and scum and not a "real retro gamer", but paying retarded prices and shoving the "supply and demand" excuse to people's throats and being a predatory re-seller who is just in for the "get rich quick" and do scummy acts on Ebay to the point that is not worth nor safe to bid in auctions (specially in US auctions) due to the tricks, and the shill-bidders and snipers and all that other crap that is just there to trick people, all of that is A-OK to the game community?


Just out of curiosity, how is this a paradox? The first part is just a 'no true scottsman' fallacy. The 2nd part is just an opinion that is separate from the first part. They don't contradict each other.

[drunk3nj3sus]

Don't really see the logic in having only flash carts, if you're going that route might as well just get a modded newer console or emulation box + adapters to use the original controllers, you can get an ouya and a half dozen usb controller adapters for the price of one flash cart + basically every game you wanna play will run on it

Getting a flash cart to play hacks, homebrew, translations, & games you can't afford on the original hardware makes sense but it doesn't really replace a collection, in addition to that if you plan to buy the games that can't play on a flash cart most of the games that won't run on a flash cart are the most expensive ones

For NES players/collectors a flash cart is kind of a waste because theirs like maybe 5 games worth playing that'll cost you more than a flash cart & most games are a fraction of the price of a flash cart, for SNES I can see the logic because for whatever reason the prices of a lot of real common games are pretty ridiculous

[Greg2600]

Don't really see the logic in having only flash carts, if you're going that route might as well just get a modded newer console or emulation box + adapters to use the original controllers, you can get an ouya and a half dozen usb controller adapters for the price of one flash cart + basically every game you wanna play will run on it

Getting a flash cart to play hacks, homebrew, translations, & games you can't afford on the original hardware makes sense but it doesn't really replace a collection, in addition to that if you plan to buy the games that can't play on a flash cart most of the games that won't run on a flash cart are the most expensive ones

For NES players/collectors a flash cart is kind of a waste because theirs like maybe 5 games worth playing that'll cost you more than a flash cart & most games are a fraction of the price of a flash cart, for SNES I can see the logic because for whatever reason the prices of a lot of real common games are pretty ridiculous

If you prefer original hardware like me, flash carts make total sense. Sometimes collectors have games in storage, can't get at them. I would disagree on the NES though, there are dozens of games that were not easily available carts that are worthwhile to play. Either too expensive/rare, Fami. only, prototypes, etc. The Atari/CV/INTV systems benefit hugely, lots of unreleased games to play. Same for TG-16, all those Japan-only HuCards. SMS too, you can play the games with 3D or FM sound (with mod) that are too expensive to buy. The only major cart system where the flash doesn't cover completely is of course special-chip centric SNES. I don't feel it's proper to criticize anyone's collecting habits or their decision on game playing and setup. To each his or her own.

[theclaw]

Flash carts are a distinct class. Less of the oddities and inaccuracies of emulators, less having to support price gougers and bootleg makers.

Unless of course you get a dodgy flash cart. Supercard GBA slowdown, anyone?

[drunk3nj3sus]

I don't feel it's proper to criticize anyone's collecting habits or their decision on game playing and setup. To each his or her own.

You must have misinterpreted the intent of my post the only thing somewhat critical I said is that I don't think having just flash carts could replace a collection. People are free to collect/game how they please I just posted my thoughts because that was the point of the thread.


I would disagree on the NES though, there are dozens of games that were not easily available carts that are worthwhile to play. Either too expensive/rare, Fami. only, prototypes, etc.

Obviously their are benefits but my point was just in relation to the cost of a flash cart. Their are a few good prototypes you can't play without a flash cart. But as far as good released NES/Famicom(via adapter) games their really aren't that many that'll cost you more than the $150 or so a flash cart costs. I can only think of 5 off the top of my head Little Samson, Flintstones 2, Gimmick, Bonk's Adventure(FC version's <150), & Panic Restaraunt(FC version's <150). A good bit of the expensive rare games on the system aren't really all that great.

I've considered getting a flash cart but I learned from emulators having the ability to play thousands of games makes me less likely to play through entire games and enjoy them I end up switching games often. If I get a cart I try my best to beat it or at least get somewhat good at it if it's ridiculously hard.

[bb_hood]

Nes PowerPak can play Famicom disk games that use a single disk. This alone makes it worthwhile.
Not to mention all the Famicom games and rom hacks.
150$ is not alot for a powerpak considering what it does and how easily you can cycle through throusands of roms. So easy to use a saves so much time & wear on the original hardware & software.

[Greg2600]

Unless of course you get a dodgy flash cart. Supercard GBA slowdown, anyone?

Krikzz will soon remedy that.


Obviously their are benefits but my point was just in relation to the cost of a flash cart. Their are a few good prototypes you can't play without a flash cart. But as far as good released NES/Famicom(via adapter) games their really aren't that many that'll cost you more than the $150 or so a flash cart costs. I can only think of 5 off the top of my head Little Samson, Flintstones 2, Gimmick, Bonk's Adventure(FC version's <150), & Panic Restaraunt(FC version's <150). A good bit of the expensive rare games on the system aren't really all that great.

I've considered getting a flash cart but I learned from emulators having the ability to play thousands of games makes me less likely to play through entire games and enjoy them I end up switching games often. If I get a cart I try my best to beat it or at least get somewhat good at it if it's ridiculously hard.

Like I said, there's no great reason not to just use an emulator on say an ouya or PC or tablet, whatever, other than if you just want to keep using the original hardware.


Nes PowerPak can play Famicom disk games that use a single disk. This alone makes it worthwhile.
Not to mention all the Famicom games and rom hacks.
150$ is not alot for a powerpak considering what it does and how easily you can cycle through throusands of roms. So easy to use a saves so much time & wear on the original hardware & software.

Is the PowerPak still being sold? Most are just buying the Everdrive N8 now. Save states can be huge as well, but emulators do them.

[Tanooki]

I don't get being critical over a flash kit unless you have problems controlling yourself in how you use it which I tend to do eventually. The cost argument is garbage though. Let's say all you cared about alone was just playing something like Little Samson ($600+) compared to an Everdrive ($100?~) or Aerofighters ($300-400) or the SD2SNES for $150~ and it becomes clear it gives a big fuck you to the scammers who have screwed up our hobby and turned it into a speculators wet dream of price abuse. Then factor in how it can run hacks, translations, prototypes, and other screwy things on top of regions other than your own and it really opens up a world while still using the original hardware which the games were intended for with the intended timings, accuracies, and the rest.

[bb_hood]

Is the PowerPak still being sold? Most are just buying the Everdrive N8 now. Save states can be huge as well, but emulators do them.

It looks like its still for sale at retrousb.com for 135$.
I dont doubt that in some ways the Everdrive is better than the Powerpak, but the Powerpak plays almost anything perfectly.
Ive had mine for 3+ years now with no problems.

[Tanooki]

So you're saying the everdrive won't run all that the powerpak will? I'd find that interesting if it were true being that it's supported and newer unlike the other that was dropped long ago other than just cycling through whatever is still slowly made or left over as it gets (pp) no firmware/mapper updates officially.

[Greg2600]

So you're saying the everdrive won't run all that the powerpak will? I'd find that interesting if it were true being that it's supported and newer unlike the other that was dropped long ago other than just cycling through whatever is still slowly made or left over as it gets (pp) no firmware/mapper updates officially.

The mappers are not as developed for the Everdrive N8 as they are the PowerPak. The PP has been around far longer though, and most of the more difficult mapper programming was done by a 3rd party.

PS: Keep an eye on Krikzz.com this Friday, he usually has Black Friday sales.

[Tanooki]

Well krizz one thing I think I'd be in for would be a GBA kit. I use a Retron5 these days and they don't like everdrive type stuff.

[kai123]

PS: Keep an eye on Krikzz.com this Friday, he usually has Black Friday sales.

Thanks, I was about to order mine tomorrow! Worth a chance.