Why No TG-16 Knockoffs?

[FieryReign]

All of these retro clone systems have been coming out over the years. NES, SNES, and Genesis. Well what about the Turbografx? Is it hard to clone the PC Engine or something? Is it because the TG-16 wasn't very popular? The system was right there during the 16-bit wars, albeit doing very poorly. Why hasn't a company looked into this? It would probably piss off those snobby collectors and greedy-low-life resellers, and that would bring a smile to my face.

[The Adventurer]

I think it's two fold. One, it's not very popular so nobody bothered to engineer a emulation chip.

Two, Turbochips slots are a bit weird.

[buzz_n64]

There is one being made. http://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?173093-quot-retro-freak-quot-CYBER-Gadget-Corporation%92s-new-machine-lets-you-play-11-different-classic-game-consoles

[celerystalker]

I've often wondered that myself. I can see why they don't do a standalone unit, because Turbografx games aren't floating around all over the place to drive demand for systems up beyond the collecter's market that goes for real hardware. However, you'd think it would make an attractive addition to something like the Retron systems. Another thing that might have lessened the will to produce such a thing is the different pinout of PC Engine HuCards, as allowing import play has been a marketing point there as well.

[Emperor Megas]

I was going to say that it was because it wasn't popular, but then the SMS wasn't at all in the U.S., and there were still All-in-1 handhelds at least like the Coleco one that features several pre-installed SMS games. I don't see why that sort of thing can be released at least.

[CastlevaniaDude]

The very simple answer is that it was an unpopular console and there's no money to be made. /thread

[CastlevaniaDude]

There is one being made. http://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?173093-quot-retro-freak-quot-CYBER-Gadget-Corporation%92s-new-machine-lets-you-play-11-different-classic-game-consoles

That thing has vaporware written all over it.

[stargate]

The system was such a colossal failure that many people don't even remember it existed. I have friends that were gamers back when it was released and they never even heard of it. It's a shame that it tanked so hard of course because it had such huge potential.

So yeah, just not enough demand I suppose.

It also sucks because it's hard to find ports on modern systems. My understanding is that quite a few TG-16 games were released on PSN, but now only a few remain. I would have loved to get my hands on Devil's Crush when it was available. And playing Ninja Spirit on my PS3 (and 75" LED) would be pretty sick.

[A Black Falcon]

I was going to say that it was because it wasn't popular, but then the SMS wasn't at all in the U.S., and there were still All-in-1 handhelds at least like the Coleco one that features several pre-installed SMS games. I don't see why that sort of thing can be released at least.
The SMS benefits from having sold okay in Europe and Brazil, other Western nations. And the SMS sold about 2 million in the US, too. Who knows how many Power Base Converters and Master Gear converters sold to play the games on the GG and Genesis, but those could add a little to the numbers as well.

Meanwhile the TG16 was only released in Europe in miniscule quantities as a test-market thing, and only 900,000 systems were produced for all of the Americas. That doesn't include Duos, but the Duo is thought to have sold only in the tens of thousands. (Same for the Turbo CD addon.)

The end result is, the TG16 sold worse than the SMS, selling less than half the number of systems, and games for the TG16 are similarly less common. SMS games are not common, but they're definitely a lot easier to find than TG16 games. There are some areas where the TG16 did better than others, particularly in cities where NEC apparently focused some of its early marketing, but overall games and hardware are much scarcer. And if the games are so hard to find, where would the demand for a clone system be? People only want clone systems if they actually have real games for the system that they want to play, after all.

And of course, the issue that a lot of games are on CDs and doing a clone of the Turbo CD would be tough is also an issue; no Genesis clones also have a Sega CD for instance, but so many of the better Turbo/PCE games are on CD that it's kind of essential, even more so than the Sega CD or 32X are (though clones of those would be nice, sure, for people who want to play those games without relying on old hardware).

That said, we well may see a Turbografx clone system sometime, but I can understand why we haven't so far. The system is fantastic, but it just didn't sell at all, sadly.

[stargate]

The SMS benefits from having sold okay in Europe and Brazil, other Western nations. And the SMS sold about 2 million in the US, too. Who knows how many Power Base Converters and Master Gear converters sold to play the games on the GG and Genesis, but those could add a little to the numbers as well.

Meanwhile the TG16 was only released in Europe in miniscule quantities as a test-market thing, and only 900,000 systems were produced for all of the Americas. That doesn't include Duos, but the Duo is thought to have sold only in the tens of thousands. (Same for the Turbo CD addon.)

The end result is, the TG16 sold worse than the SMS, selling less than half the number of systems, and games for the TG16 are similarly less common. SMS games are not common, but they're definitely a lot easier to find than TG16 games. There are some areas where the TG16 did better than others, particularly in cities where NEC apparently focused some of its early marketing, but overall games and hardware are much scarcer. And if the games are so hard to find, where would the demand for a clone system be? People only want clone systems if they actually have real games for the system that they want to play, after all.

And of course, the issue that a lot of games are on CDs and doing a clone of the Turbo CD would be tough is also an issue; no Genesis clones also have a Sega CD for instance, but so many of the better Turbo/PCE games are on CD that it's kind of essential, even more so than the Sega CD or 32X are (though clones of those would be nice, sure, for people who want to play those games without relying on old hardware).

That said, we well may see a Turbografx clone system sometime, but I can understand why we haven't so far. The system is fantastic, but it just didn't sell at all, sadly.

Well stated and I agree with most of this with the exception of games and hardware being hard to find. The TG-16 console and games are still commonly found on eBay. Actually, the best games for the system can still be easily had for reasonable money (although the prices have been increasing lately).

Of course, I would suggest that there are about 10 "must have" hucard games for the TG-16. After that it's pretty slim pickings.

[celerystalker]

While it's true that TG-16 games are all over ebay, they aren't all over actual storefronts. These clone systems make the vast majority out of nostalgic casual customers who see an old game they used to like or see an Atari Flashback and get all, "I gotta show my kids REAL games" for a minute, or see an NES game in one of the many vintage media stores popping up in malls with a buddy and have that, "Dude, remember when we used to rent NBA Jam?" moment and pick up a clone system with a few old favorites. The Turbo market is almost exclusively the domain of collectors these days, and they want real hardware with a Turbo Booster or a recapped duo with a video upscale mod, not a Yobo Turbo Game Player+.

Realistically, I live in a pretty decent video game market. St Louis is a mid-sized metro area with dozens of stores. However, if I went out tomorrow and snapped up every Turbo and Turbo CD game in stores within 50 miles, I might scrounge up 60-75 games, 2/3 of which will be Keith Courage, China Warrior, and TV Sports Baseball, with a couple of copies of Alien Crush, Legendary Axe, and a JB Harold for good luck. I like most of those games, but I don't think most people would see any of those and get Turbo wood.

[Steve W]

There have been PC Engine clones before, it'd be cool if somebody would do like Famiclone makers and pack a few dozen games into a PC Engine clone (games that aren't too heavy on Japanese text). And put out a few multi-carts for it too.

http://nfggames.com/games/pceclones/

[The Adventurer]

Don't SMS games just run on Genesis clone hardware any way? All you need is some kind of pass through and you're good to go. You'll notice nobody is rushing to clone SMS card game compatibility.

[Gentlegamer]

I'm fine with no TG-16 clones, there doesn't need to be anything else out there to drive demand for games and inflate the market.

[Tanooki]

Aside from the small group of people trying to extract irrationally amounts of money out of TG16 HuCards and CDs just in the last 3 years, because before that the prices were very rock bottom, no one cares, and definitely not enough care by any means to qualify making a clone. The system itself wouldn't be hard to clone, or to even pull a Retron5 type emulation plugin device (which that link waaaaay up top shows it being done) it's just not really worth it. It's catering to a very small group of people, not that even in the big picture those still wanting NES games are that large either, but at least there's a mass of store fronts beyond private sellers so the stuff just recycles. TG16 wasn't around terribly long either so it doesn't have a huge library, so that doesn't help either.

It's a good system but it has been rationally priced out of many peoples hands so that's a problem too. Look what a used console (complete) goes for, then look at addons like the turbo booster, the CD attachment, hell even the DUO goes for used or new....it sucks. Then when you get a game of good name like the Bonk titles among others, the prices would scare a good many off who were curious into quitting to care or just emulating it with ROMS. If the prices were more like the common NES stuff currently ($1-15 range) and were even in half the supply of those on the NES again, I think you'd see more caring.

[Flojomojo]

I'd be satisfied if the TurboGrafx 16 Gamebox for iPhone were updated by Hudson. It seems to have been abandoned, since it hasn't been updated since 2011 and is no longer in the store.

At least the machine is easy to emulate. Its presence on the Wii Virtual Console is sufficient for me.

[Jorpho]

I was going to say that it was because it wasn't popular, but then the SMS wasn't at all in the U.S., and there were still All-in-1 handhelds at least like the Coleco one that features several pre-installed SMS games. I don't see why that sort of thing can be released at least.I had the impression that the Colecovision hardware wasn't too different from the SMS hardware.


Don't SMS games just run on Genesis clone hardware any way? All you need is some kind of pass through and you're good to go. You'll notice nobody is rushing to clone SMS card game compatibility.For the longest time I understood that the Majesco Genesis III lacked the hardware for SMS compatibility (due to the lack of a discrete Z80), but then someone demonstrated that it could be fixed with a little rewiring.

[Tanooki]

I was under that belief too they left some chip out, at least that's what the running story was back in the day which is why also Virtua Racing and the 32X won't work on it either.

[turboexpress]

I'm fine with no TG-16 clones, there doesn't need to be anything else out there to drive demand for games and inflate the market.

agreed!

no clones. I like how PCE/TG-16 is still a hidden gem of a system in US. It would be good if it stayed that way.

[SparTonberry]

Don't SMS games just run on Genesis clone hardware any way? All you need is some kind of pass through and you're good to go. You'll notice nobody is rushing to clone SMS card game compatibility.
From what I understand, the SMS hardware ("Mode 4") in the Genesis was purely for backwards-compatibility and largely separate architecturally from the native Genesis (at least, I think Sega told Genesis developers to only develop in Genesis mode "Mode 5")
So if the Genesis clone hardware bothered to replicate the SMS mode, that's pretty amazing. :)

But TG-16, while very popular in Japan, I suppose it did not equal to a internationally large following, making it less interesting to clone developers (= profittable).

[FieryReign]

agreed!

no clones. I like how PCE/TG-16 is still a hidden gem of a system in US. It would be good if it stayed that way.

That is a very snobbish attitude to have. Typical collector elitism. You want things for yourself and only yourselves. Fuck a "hidden gem", that term is so played and overused. What about those who remember the console and want to relive some nostalgia, but don't want to pay the ridiculous prices resellers think they are worth? I'm happy with my emulator and roms, but there are those who would prefer physical copies and actual Turbo controllers.

The Neo Geo wasn't popular outside of their arcade cabinets, yet wasn't there some sort of portable rerelease recently? As someone else pointed out there are PC Engine clones. There is a market for such a thing, no matter how niche it is. Maybe some sort of portable like those Genny and Snes Hyperboy things?

[Tanooki]

Snobbish and incorrect looking how expensive the stuff has become. Given the amount of people after the stuff and the far more limited product, it's definitely not under the radar in the least bit.

You're really hitting on the whole problem collectively with die hard screw you level collectors in any of the consoles and a big play in why I've backed off and sold off some good NES/SNES stuff as it sickened me that much I want nearly nothing to do with it anymore. They're not collectors items and never were meant to be, and the reason I even care in the least bit is that I grew up with it, and I see no reason to get into a collectors pissing contest towards the bottom of the toilet on how high I can pay for a video game. It's the same reason I have NOT bought a Duo again as badly (and I really badly do) want it again. The prices on that console alone are fucking garbage, and the games for the most part the prices are nauseating. I mean I can't even comfortably want to buy a Duo, a flash hucard, and just burn shit to play it's that prohibitive and I owned one when games still were trickling out in the mid 90s. I'd love to have the real deal but it's just not worth the hell. If I jumped on it around 3 years ago before it more or less overnight went straight to awful, sure, but since then, no. If I ever found a well working intact system for around $200 or less that was undamaged and complete (and I mean loose system but complete, not CIB) I'd grab it, then get some use out of my burner so no I wouldn't turn my nose up to it or flip it to add to the feeding frenzy either.

And really I don't think there are any hidden gems left. There's enough over exposure from terrible youtube videos and know it all articles on sites that'll cover old things it has been all said, done, and done enough times over. I'm happy at the least back in the 90s I also bought a copy of Magic Engine (TG/PCE hu+sgx+cd) emulator, still have the key.

[Gameguy]

What about those who remember the console and want to relive some nostalgia, but don't want to pay the ridiculous prices resellers think they are worth?
When have clone systems ever been cheaper than real consoles? I've never seen a clone priced $30 or less, they're mostly poor quality overpriced crap. Having a clone system still won't help with the cost of games, most of which are hard to find locally.

I'm pretty sure there aren't clone systems for Turbografx because pirates never focused on making bootlegs of it the way NES, SNES, Gameboy, and Genesis stuff was. It's easy to find bootleg NES systems and games, it's not too hard to find bootleg SNES and Genesis stuff too. I've never seen pirated Turbografx stuff besides CD copies like Sapphire. Most clone companies seem to just steal stuff figured out from bootleggers and copy it, I am a bit surprised nobody bothered to include a stolen emulator in a console like the Retron 5 did with other consoles.

[turboexpress]

snobbish elitism etc. whatever you want to call it. There are many people that don't want Turbografx 16 to turn into a pop-culture, everyone knows-it, just as popular as nes and sega system. No clones please. Keep it hidden gem.

[celerystalker]

Do we seriously care about "poseurs" in videogaming now? I would love to have more people who have actually played Turbo games instead of just watching videos or reading reviews and assuming they knew, or just who finally knew what I was talking about when I want to talk about a Turbo game. Everyone should be so lucky as to enjoy good games. I do believe they should do so legally, but that's another discussion and not part of this topic.

What's next, no arcade compilations? Maybe you should have to own a cabinet to play Sinistar... ridiculous. If hipsters talking about Turbografx games upsets you, I mean, I get it if you just want people to be genuine in their enthusiasm, but why deny them a chance to play the games first hand? For me, yeah, it has to be legit hardware with the controller it was designed around, but I don't expect everyone else to care about it that way. I'm usually just happy to meet someone who genuinely enjoys games, and clone systems don't do anything to hurt that.

Games were meant to be played. Play them, share them, and enjoy them.

[HardcoreOtaku]

I'm completely obsessed with the PC Engine (Japanese version of the TurboGrafx), it's my close second favorite console of all time.
But as others said I doubt there would be a modern USA clone console simply because there's not enough software about to make it worthwhile.
I can see a modern Japanese clone console with PC Engine support becoming a reality though as it originally sold very well there.

Edit: Not in modern times, but in the past there were clones systems made of the PC Engine such as the PC Boy, UFO Super Game, Galaxy etc...

Also in Korea there was the Vistar, but this has never been confirmed whether it was officially licensed or a clone.
http://nfggames.com/games/vistar/

[celerystalker]

I'm completely obsessed with the PC Engine (Japanese version of the TurboGrafx), it's my close second favorite console of all time.
But as others said I doubt there would be a modern USA clone console simply because there's not enough software about to make it worthwhile.
I can see a modern Japanese clone console with PC Engine support becoming a reality though as it originally sold very well there.

You're only obsessed with it because it's awesome.

[stargate]

I think some of the previous comments are a bit harsh. This site is comprised of many collectors and I don't see any issues with collectors in general. I mean they pretty much drive the vintage video game industry. The statement that video games were never meant to be collector's items doesn't make a lot of sense. Most items don't start out "meant to be" collectibles. They just turn out that way. And yeah, I think it's OK to enjoy "hidden gems" like the TG-16. There is something cool about games and systems that have not been completely exploited and played out to death. Most of my friends and coworkers can talk NES, but have never heard of TG-16. So when I come across a fellow TG-16 collector, it's exciting.

And if every game and system were dirt cheap, it would take some of the excitement out of it. I have found some rare games "in the wild" which is always exciting. I have also saved up to buy rare/expensive games. Also exciting. So while it kinda sux that I will probably never own a Neo Geo collection due to the prohibitive cost, it comes with the territory. Plus nobody can really whine that much because just about everything is available free on emulation or ported to some other console. I have quite a few Neo Geo games on my PS3. Maybe not as good as playing on the original console, but cheap and satisfying.

Plus most collectors I know don't simply hoard for the sake of it or try to drive up market prices. Most collect for the sheer joy of gaming and actually play these systems and games. Then resell for fair market prices. Granted there will always be those that try to take advantage, but it's a small percentage.

At the end of the day, collecting always comes down to supply and demand. NES systems will always be easily had for low money because the market was flooded with these things. Neo Geo and Turbo Duo are going to cost you because not as many exist. That's collecting.

[celerystalker]

There's nothing wrong with collecting at all. Wanting to deny people the opportunity to play games so that it can remain a secret is different altogether. Hell, I have a Turbografx, Neo Geo AES and MVS, Duo, and most others, but does that mean I scoff at people who bought a Neo Geo X or a PC Engine classic on PSP? Nope. Glad they're getting to enjoy what I've already had the opportunity to play.

Seriously, classic gaming can be a very lonely hobby without enthusiasm from others. I love obscure offbeat imports, and it gets lonely not being able to talk to anyone else interested in stuff I enjoy so much in person. Luckily, I have a small group of local friends who are enthusiastic about games, and will at least try them out with me, but there's still so much I want to ramble about that I post in this forum to get it out, because it's my favorite hobby. I want more people to know how great the Turbo is. It's awesome to meet another person who's been playing it for years, but you know what else is awesome? Getting to see the enthusiasm from a new player learning how the shooters actually rule the 16 bit era, and there are challengers as good or better than ThunderForce and MUSHA, or seeing someone start to get into the music from Legendary Axe. I don't have any problem with collectors collecting game systems, cartridges, and discs, but why hide experiences and knowledge just to keep some imagined fraternity of people in the know? I say bring on the compilation discs, clone systems, whatever. It's not devaluing anything other than people feeling like they're secret video game pundits. Enjoy the fun of turning someone else onto a new system!

[turboexpress]

agreed with both points of view and I respect both ideals. I still like the fact that if you ask anyone who Mario is they all know, and if you ask anyone who Bonk is, only few of them know. I really can't explain it, but I like the fact that they don't know. There is something special about those systems that not everyone knows or cares about. If it was all to get exposed there would be nothing special about it. Gonna just be another dime a dozen playstation.

[turboexpress]

sorry for double post......and believe me this what I'm gonna tell you. If you right now line up more people to buy PCE/Turbo stuff on ebay this will skyrocket the prices even more.

Imagine thousands of new gamers who just found out about hidden gem systems??? Once they all are sent to ebay to buy these units and games what is that gonna do? Nothing but raise the prices even further. Turbo express gonna cost like 1000 bucks. Trust me guys, we don't want this.

[Gameguy]

Turbografx isn't unknown, if it was unknown the games would be cheaper than they currently are. Unknown or forgotten consoles would be more like the Game Gear or Gameboy, most of those games are overlooked because most people don't care about those consoles anymore.

[Flojomojo]

agreed with both points of view and I respect both ideals. I still like the fact that if you ask anyone who Mario is they all know, and if you ask anyone who Bonk is, only few of them know. I really can't explain it, but I like the fact that they don't know. There is something special about those systems that not everyone knows or cares about. If it was all to get exposed there would be nothing special about it. Gonna just be another dime a dozen playstation.

I think you overestimate the "cool" factor of a video game system from 25 years ago, Johnny Turbo.
http://sardoose.rustedlogic.net/reviews/jturbo/#intro

[turboexpress]

you DO agree that making 2 cent clones of retro game systems drives some of the newly exposed gamers into having the need to purchase the original units and games??? and you also agree that this indeed contributes to raising prices, skyrocket on ebay and gouging on original stuff???


so what's the problem here?

clones are no good

[Tanooki]

Turbografx isn't unknown, if it was unknown the games would be cheaper than they currently are. Unknown or forgotten consoles would be more like the Game Gear or Gameboy, most of those games are overlooked because most people don't care about those consoles anymore.

Well said. It's anything but unknown. Hudson saw to it in interesting ways over the years with the TG packages for ios and consoles, virtual console on Nintendo going back to 2007~ish, and even in the later 90s keeping BONK alive with SNES/SFC and Gameboy releases (NES too.) If you throw bomberman into the mix, such as bomberman 94 being mega bomberman on Genesis, the exposure is there and people who care about 90s gaming know of it. There's plenty of people who care, too many, and too many without much common sense not to fight over it which is why even some of the most common of games get just too much cash these days. You're right, you want one people don't care about, look at handhelds on the whole as the Lynx, Gamegear, and even amazingly the Gameboy(any version) get little to no respect price wise. So much of it you can still buy CIB for the original retail price or damn near it (if not below) and even on the more noted titles you still can get them for like in much of the cases 50% off to full original retail just on the cart itself.

I didn't give up on old gaming, I gave up on the fighting which is why I bowed out of buying a Duo again and DID get a Gameboy. So much there to still explore I never had, and stuff I did 10-20+ years ago and it's an unmolested market where I can snap up like 20+ games for under $100. Good luck doing that on TG16 because it's not only known, it's sought after.

[celerystalker]

Turbo collecting is already as rough as NES collecting. Magical Chase, Dragon Slayer, Sapphire, Exile: Wicked Phenomenon, Renny Blaster, Fausette Armor, Vasteel, Y's III, Dracula X... the "secret" has been out for a long time with collectors. The people spending that kind of money aren't the ones buying clones.

[Tanooki]

I'd argue it's worse. Compare the prices that flagship titles go for (ie: mascots.) The prices attached to the Bonk games suck and it was very highly printed being their Mario. Bonk starts (1st one) around $25 just for the hucard alone while the hucard for Bonk 3 is like $300 placing it up there in Bonk NES/Bubble Bobble 2 territory while a complete one is easily over $700. Formerly good ol cheap Ys Book 1+2 that rotted forever in that $10-15 range up until relatively recently, that one disc complete in its case with the inserts is over $70 now. That's why I don't agree with it being unknown. It's known and well abused. It's getting the full blown NES treatment and doesn't have the quantity of the media to back up the pounding so the costs are worse on the loose game only end of things and up.

[turboexpress]

yes definitely great points and a lot what you guys say makes good sense. Just think about this point tho.....

for example, just throwing a number out.....47773 people buy the clone of PCE/Turbo. There is a large percentage of those people who bought the clone because they either a. never played these systems b. don't have the originals of these systems c. bought it to try it out because they heard it was good...

now look at this scenario.......8359 of those people now MUST have the original units PLUS original games and money is not the issue..What does this do???? This keeps raising Ebay prices.

So I still don't get how can possibly clones be good for retro gaming??? All clones do is drive up prices on original stuff.

[Tanooki]

They're good just because they allow people to relive or try something new. Sure it could definitely drive up the price, if enough are aware it's out there. It doesn't have Nintendo branding so it would be a tighter circle of people who would notice let alone even care if it was stand alone or just another slot in a swiss army box like the retron 5 is. It's not like the R5 with its instant translations has driven up the price and scarcity of Famicom and super Famicom games.

[Greg2600]

TG-16 has a couple issues. First, would a clone/flashback sell? Eh, probably not enough, but who knows. Second, who owns the license? Isn't it Konami now? The other systems have license holders who At Games were able to contact and make a deal with.

[FieryReign]

Go ahead and include some popular preloaded games, as well as a hu-slot. Just like these Genny clones. Include a clone Turbo controller, AND PUT 2 FUCKING CONTROLLER PORTS on the thing(something NEC/TTI greedily failed to do). I would buy and might actively seek out turbochips. If only to piss off High-Horse collectors and scalpers. Let em cry about authenticity, it makes me laugh. Especially the fleamarket dreamers who think their copy of Alien Crush is worth more than a fucking PC Engine console itself.

If it shakes up the corny elitism of videogames and collecting, I'm all for it. If your penis rises because you own or know someone who owns Magical Chase, good for you. That's all you're going to get. No praise, no victory dance. It's not that great of a game. Rare doesn't mean great...

[celerystalker]

yes definitely great points and a lot what you guys say makes good sense. Just think about this point tho.....

for example, just throwing a number out.....47773 people buy the clone of PCE/Turbo. There is a large percentage of those people who bought the clone because they either a. never played these systems b. don't have the originals of these systems c. bought it to try it out because they heard it was good...

now look at this scenario.......8359 of those people now MUST have the original units PLUS original games and money is not the issue..What does this do???? This keeps raising Ebay prices.

So I still don't get how can possibly clones be good for retro gaming??? All clones do is drive up prices on original stuff.

I'll take a stab at this scenario. First, these projections are based on... a random guess to try and make a point? Even assuming that initial projection was somehow accurate, what science said that 20% of those buyers would turn into collectors? Either way, let's just give those numbers accuracy they don't deserve and say they're perfectly accurate. So, now Magical Chase will cost me $9000 instead of $5000? Keith Courage suddenly costs $15?

The assumption that a clone will produce 8000+ new Turbo collectors with bottomless pockets is silly, but even if it did, I just don't care. It's collectors who drove the prices bananas to begin with. In the last 7 or so years, a TON of collectors started trying to snap up the libraries of systems with a small number of games so they could have complete collections. Sensible people wouldn't pay more than $1 for Color A Dinosaur. They blew up the Virtual Boy, they blew up the 32X, the Jaguar and Jaguar CD, and eventually they got ahold of the Turbografx, and they blew it up, too. It is not a secret. It's a fairly mature market at this point.

I don't hate collectors. I have probably 2500 games myself, and that doesn't happen from a passive interest. I pay good money for AES games even though I have an MVS, because I enjoy playing the console I'd always wanted as a junior high schooler. Some games are out of my reach now, and I can live with that. I don't buy it because it's valuable, it's because I want to play it, share the experience with friends who are enthusiastic but less fortunate, and so I can let my son and niwces and nephews play the stuff that captured my imagination.

You wanna have secrets? Go find them. Start digging up offbeat Game Boy, Wii, or DS games. Start finding PC Engine or Famicom oddities. Get ahead of the collector curve and find something. If you feel really nice... share what you find with others who might enjoy it.

To collectors, Turbografx is old news, and new players are more likely to turn away at the already silly prices than cash out on them. Bring on the clones, or at least some compilation discs... maybe if enough people actually play Keith Courage instead of watching videos or libelous reviews, it'll finally get some credit for being fun instead of somehow killing tge system before it got off the ground like some "historians" would have you believe.

[WoodyXP]

You'll notice nobody is rushing to clone SMS card game compatibility.

It would be cheap and easy to produce a card reader. The problem here is most of the card games are horrible. There's only so many copies of "My Hero" to go around.

[bb_hood]

To collectors, Turbografx is old news, and new players are more likely to turn away at the already silly prices than cash out on them. Bring on the clones, or at least some compilation discs...

Eh, I disagree with that. Alot of people collect TG16 and I think alot more people will collect for the system in the future. The Turbo Grafx/PC engine is an awesome system, and considering how good, unique, and legitimately rare many of the games are, prices really arent that silly.

Clones might drive up the demand for original hu-cards, but any hardcore collector is just gonna choose an original system anyway.
You can play all the hu card games off flash carts anyway so you dont have to pay collector prices to enjoy turbo games.

[o.pwuaioc]

I was going to say that it was because it wasn't popular, but then the SMS wasn't at all in the U.S., and there were still All-in-1 handhelds at least like the Coleco one that features several pre-installed SMS games. I don't see why that sort of thing can be released at least.

The SMS was more popular in Europe and Brazil than the Turbo was world-wide.


Eh, I disagree with that. Alot of people collect TG16 and I think alot more people will collect for the system in the future. The Turbo Grafx/PC engine is an awesome system, and considering how good, unique, and legitimately rare many of the games are, prices really arent that silly.

Clones might drive up the demand for original hu-cards, but any hardcore collector is just gonna choose an original system anyway.
You can play all the hu card games off flash carts anyway so you dont have to pay collector prices to enjoy turbo games.
Prices are downright retarded right now.

[Tanooki]

Calling the prices retarded insult the retards. :P They're nauseating and unfounded other than the fact collectors decided to turn it into the ultimate e-peen system to screw up catagorically across the board. When games as bad as Deep Blue can get something like $30 loose, you got problems. That's like a warped reality where a game as bad at Back to the Future or 2+3 on NES would regularly pay out at that rate or higher for a loose cart and every other awful LJN and Acclaim game on there.

It is true though there is no special chips or voodoo magic with NEC, so if you just pony up for a flash hucard for the system, and then just burn discs, you can combat the asinine behavior on the system and just enjoy it uniquely enough that way without getting wallet molested other than buying the system if you don't already have it.

[celerystalker]

Eh, I disagree with that. Alot of people collect TG16 and I think alot more people will collect for the system in the future. The Turbo Grafx/PC engine is an awesome system, and considering how good, unique, and legitimately rare many of the games are, prices really arent that silly.

Clones might drive up the demand for original hu-cards, but any hardcore collector is just gonna choose an original system anyway.
You can play all the hu card games off flash carts anyway so you dont have to pay collector prices to enjoy turbo games.

My intent wasn't to deride the Turbografx there... I love it to death. I was mainly just saying that the prices are already blown up. Just a few examples of recent sold listings:

Magical Chase: $3999
Dynastic Hero: $999.99
Bonk 3: $735
Super Air Zonk: $625
Terraforming: $550
Soldier Blade: $507
Cotton: $399.99
Legend of Hero Tonma: $375
Beyond Shadowgate: $350

That's just a small sample, and none of those were sealed to try and show inflated value. The only point I'm trying to make with that is that collectors have already gone crazy here. Ten years ago, Magical Chase was a $75 game. I passed on it back then, thinking it seemed awful high, and chose to buy a Neo Geo game at that price... I think it was Super Baseball 2020. Good thing I really like Super Baseball, because it sure as hell doesn't go for thousands.

[bb_hood]

My intent wasn't to deride the Turbografx there... I love it to death. I was mainly just saying that the prices are already blown up. Just a few examples of recent sold listings:

Magical Chase: $3999
Dynastic Hero: $999.99
Bonk 3: $735
Super Air Zonk: $625
Terraforming: $550
Soldier Blade: $507
Cotton: $399.99
Legend of Hero Tonma: $375
Beyond Shadowgate: $350

That's just a small sample, and none of those were sealed to try and show inflated value. The only point I'm trying to make with that is that collectors have already gone crazy here. Ten years ago, Magical Chase was a $75 game. I passed on it back then, thinking it seemed awful high, and chose to buy a Neo Geo game at that price... I think it was Super Baseball 2020. Good thing I really like Super Baseball, because it sure as hell doesn't go for thousands.

Magical Chase is pretty much the holy grail for the US hu-cards. So yeah thats gonna be expensive sure. The rest are some of the rarest for the system, so go figure. Everything was cheaper 10 years ago.

[Tanooki]

The stupidity around Magical Chase is global, and also cross platform. Look what the GBC version from japan gets by association. It's sick.

That list of TG games there, I had like 5 of those a decade ago when I had to sell off the duo/games and I only bought TG card or disc games complete too. Bonk 3, Zonk, Cotton, Tonma, Shadowgate. The first 2 +1 puts it in excess of what I bought Pinbot for of all things, and all 5 of them would put me with both my tables and with $200 to spare. That's disgusting. I mean they're good games, but they're not $2500 worth of awesome and being what they are, they're finite, short, and will lead to being bored with them to sit disused on a shelf.

Those prices when you couple it even with the common stuff like Bonk 1 and 2, Ys Book, Gate of Thunder disc (which has the 2 bonks and bomberman on it too) and a few others there is NO way this is an under the radar system and definitely it is not a system fucked up and over by scalpers and collectors alike. The system is right in there neck and neck with the SNES which had a crap ton more games released in variety and quantity. As bad as the prices are now, no clone system would make it any worse because newbies wouldn't be mad enough in large enough numbers to blow cash on this level. The clone would work for existing owners of games to have something to supplement what they have, maybe so they can put it up and preserve it (like me with the Retron5, and my DK Super Set is boxed back up and the toploader I had modded is up too.) The clone/emulator box also could have the R5's extra perks of HDMI, save/load, patching, etc. There would be a market albeit limited for it.

[bb_hood]

That's disgusting. I mean they're good games, but they're not $2500 worth of awesome and being what they are, they're finite, short, and will lead to being bored with them to sit disused on a shelf.


Some people like to collect rare games, even if they wont be playing them. Some people have no qualms about paying high prices on ebay. If you find that disgusting, then I am sorry, and you should probably just stay away from ebay altogether. The reality is you really wont find those games anywhere else, too many people want them, and all those game on that list (except for shadowgate and soldier blade) are very rare. Its just to be expected that those titles are gonna get super expensive. Dont like prices on these games now? Just wait 10 years.

[SparTonberry]

Don't SMS games just run on Genesis clone hardware any way? All you need is some kind of pass through and you're good to go. You'll notice nobody is rushing to clone SMS card game compatibility.
Weren't all card games (except for maybe a couple Japanese-exclusives, which I don't know if they even work on an SMS anyways) released on cart in Europe, at least? So if you really wanted to play, you could just buy those.

[Tanooki]

Some people like to collect rare games, even if they wont be playing them. Some people have no qualms about paying high prices on ebay. If you find that disgusting, then I am sorry, and you should probably just stay away from ebay altogether. The reality is you really wont find those games anywhere else, too many people want them, and all those game on that list (except for shadowgate and soldier blade) are very rare. Its just to be expected that those titles are gonna get super expensive. Dont like prices on these games now? Just wait 10 years.

Yeah I do find the amount of money being tossed around senseless wrecking yet another of my hobbies disgusting and I have every right to feel that way about it. I don't feel like it's some protected class of goods either, but the whole mess has turned into nothing but sheer madness and nonsense. I know you won't find the games much around, especially TG16 stuff and because of that the ones who still can buy are the ones willing to pay at least retail if not 3-10+ times the value at this rate due to the limited stock (compared to say the NES.) I don't have a like or dislike of them, I decided I'm never touching the Tg16 again because of it some years ago when it first turned bad (not to worse.) I resolved if I ever found the hardware at a reasonable local price (not likely) I'd just warez the crap out of the CDs and get a flash kit. TG16 and its assets are all pretty much dead, no one is going to care, and if they did, they should re-release the stuff cheap to undercut this stuff but since there's so little grand scale demand that isn't happening. As far as ebay goes I quit looking at NES, SNES and TG16 stuff on there for years now, other than to research selling stuff off I don't want anymore and to randomly keep up on stuff in case I accident into something. I'd rather piss a grand on a pinball machine or more that'll last me a long time due to the random nature of it and retained value than a couple of carts I could legally emulate (virtual console) or warez(rom, bootleg cart, everdrive.)

[retroguy]

For what it's worth, there are at least a couple of online stores that operate out of Japan but ship internationally and you can get a Duo from them for a somewhat reasonable price compared to what they go for on ebay, so it's not totally a lost cause.

[bb_hood]

but the whole mess has turned into nothing but sheer madness and nonsense.

Exaggerate much?

[Tanooki]

No honestly I feel that's pretty accurate completely. Go back 4 years ago and look up prices, now see where they've shot to. It fits very well. I know you're being sarcastic, but I'm not.

[bb_hood]

No, Im being serious. I fail to see how people spending $$$ on turbo grafx games qualifies as 'sheer madness'.

[celerystalker]

The point from me wasn't that it was madness. I get how this works. It was about the people talking like it's some kind of secret that's going to explode if a clone came out. My point was that the explosion has already happened. I don't care that it's gotten so high; it is what it is. My question is, given that the prices are already so high, why worry about a few extra collectors, and more importantly, why deny them the opportunity to play the games?

[Tanooki]

That was the whole point originally, said the same thing too. They've already made the price terrible, so why not have a clone as the secret has long been out there and the price proves it. The system would be welcome to most with the games already as odds are it likely would be some android core and have all those nice perks like the R5 has. The other stuff came up when it went in another direction.

[turboexpress]

I just disagree with clone systems because they sometimes act like introductory vessels to clueless gamers, waking up those gamers and creating collectards out of them. Not ALL of them, but some of them for sure.

I am not against any of this by any means, my point was simply to emphasize the possibility of prices going up with more gamers entering the market that want to own the ORIGINAL units and games.

It's not rocket science. common guys.

[celerystalker]

It's possible that new collectors could pop up from such a thing, but it's also not rocket science to observe that prices are already astoundingly high. A new group of collectors isn't going to make Turbo collecting much tougher than it already is. It's not a fertile ground of unknown, low-priced games, and it hasn't been for a long time. I'll go a different direction this time.

Last time I named off a bunch of the rare, highly sought after Turbo games and recent sold auction prices. Copies of Timeball... yes, freaking TIMEBALL, have been selling for $30-$60. Timeball. That game is easy to find and plays like crap. Moto Roader... a fun, yet extremely common racer, goes for $20-$30. Drop Off, a fourth-rate Arkanoid clone, $20-30. The cheapest, most common games for the system are now $10-15 at best... people have been paying over $20 for loose HuCards of games like Vigilante... I mean, it's a decent game, but that's like paying $20 for a copy of Kung Fu on NES.

I love the Turbo, and there are a handful of games I'd still like to pick up for it, even though I have about 3/4 of the US library and about 60 PCE games. I have to accept, though, that unless I stumble on a genius deal, I'm probably not getting all of them. Prices are that high, because it's already a hot ticket with collectors, not a protected secret so long as those damned kids don't hear about it. The lid blew off years ago, so why worry about it? It's not your secret and it's not mine. It's a well-known and thoroughly documented collection among video game circles. The "hidden gems" have been dug up and polished already, and new people are always gonna notice the sparkle.

Turbografx is not a secret, it was just under-appreciated in its time, and a kick-ass system. Neo Geo is not a secret. Virtual Boy is not a hidden gem. Hidden gems are only that until they catch on, they don't stay that way forever. They become grails and collector's items. If you want "hidden gems," you have to keep adapting and digging for them, you can't just sit on 25-year-old knowledge and expect that it will stay a secret garden.

[turboexpress]

I should buy up all the $1 and $2 Gameboy carts on ebay.

yeah, I got what you are saying celery. You are most likely right. Hidden gems are dug up and polished. Well said man.

[Tanooki]

Gameboy is handheld. There's a good many of people who won't deal with them just because they're bound to a tiny screen and considered fairly basic, even by NES standards. Combine the fact that there's a huge mass of games for it both in quantity of releases and quantity of copies of the games and most of them will never slide up the insanity scale which is a good thing. As I see it, it's a weird insurance policy for much of the library because the prices keep staying way down, even on notable franchise titles, so at least in the long run there will be one last affordable Nintendo cart based system from the last century.

[Edmond Dantes]

Snobbish and incorrect looking how expensive the stuff has become.

Besides that, releasing a clone would not drive up the prices. If anything it would do the opposite. High prices happen due to scarcity. If something is being bootlegged, it is no longer scarce.

On that note, some PC-Engine games have actually been bootlegged--Sapphire being one example--so clearly there's a market.

[Tanooki]

I'm not one for it normally, but I would totally endorse tg16/pce bootlegging at this rate for anyone and everyone who didn't want to eat it that bad. Look at the price of the games known as fairly universally poor on hucard for instance in the US and see what they get hucard alone let alone complete. When even the turds get to that point, unless you just have a deep wallet and don't care, you might as well...right? Ultimately it's not about the collectors and their puffed up self inflicted values in the end, it's the games and the quality and variety they have in each. People should be capable of experiencing each and every one of them without having to resort to back alley kidney surgery donations. I think I'm being pretty consistent as I've said for probably 3 or more years now I'd still pay someone $50 to fire up a kazoo writer, put Little Samson on one of their cheap boards that supports it, throw it in a new shell and print off a nice like for like copy of the label. It's a great game, but pushing $1000 to hell with that.

[bb_hood]

If anything it would do the opposite. High prices happen due to scarcity. If something is being bootlegged, it is no longer scarce.

On that note, some PC-Engine games have actually been bootlegged--Sapphire being one example--so clearly there's a market.

Bootlegs will not affect prices at all. All hu-card games can already be played on a 80$ flash cart. All the cd games can just be downloaded, burned and played.
All these games can be played without buying the actual copies of the games themselves. The appearance of more bootlegs wont decrease the market value for the rare games. Collectors dont care at all about fakes, bootlegs, or repros.

You can burn a million copies of Sapphire and it wont make an original authentic copy any easier to find.





People should be capable of experiencing each and every one of them without having to resort to back alley kidney surgery donations..

Um, they dont have to.
These games can obviously be played by much cheaper means, so constantly complaining about 'collectors ruining everything' is silly.

[Tanooki]

I'm not being silly, and read the rest I wrote. Clearly it can be done cheaper. Piracy using a flash kit and burned discs. Just pony up for the system and you're good to go. That's what I was saying and would back entirely because of cost. This way you can enjoy the games and let the scalpers just hurt each other and those who don't do a little research first into alternatives.

[Gameguy]

Bootlegs will not affect prices at all. All hu-card games can already be played on a 80$ flash cart. All the cd games can just be downloaded, burned and played.
All these games can be played without buying the actual copies of the games themselves. The appearance of more bootlegs wont decrease the market value for the rare games. Collectors dont care at all about fakes, bootlegs, or repros.

You can burn a million copies of Sapphire and it wont make an original authentic copy any easier to find.
Burned copies don't mean anything, but Sapphire and other games had factory pressed bootlegs made. With Sapphire no attempt was made to distinguish the bootlegs from real copies so plenty of collectors would have been buying them before anyone realized they were copies. You'd only know if you had a real copy to compare it to. If a flood of copies start floating around and people think they're real, the prices would drop.

Here's a site selling more factory pressed "repros". Some games weren't released here so are grey market, others were and are clear pirates. They look good too, no mention to their legality though. I'm sure plenty of people just love them and don't think of them as fake, they just think of them as reprints the same way books are later reprinted.

https://pceworks.wordpress.com/

[Gentlegamer]

Burned copies don't mean anything, but Sapphire and other games had factory pressed bootlegs made. With Sapphire no attempt was made to distinguish the bootlegs from real copies so plenty of collectors would have been buying them before anyone realized they were copies. You'd only know if you had a real copy to compare it to. If a flood of copies start floating around and people think they're real, the prices would drop.

Here's a site selling more factory pressed "repros". Some games weren't released here so are grey market, others were and are clear pirates. They look good too, no mention to their legality though. I'm sure plenty of people just love them and don't think of them as fake, they just think of them as reprints the same way books are later reprinted.

https://pceworks.wordpress.com/

That site is the same guy who made the Sapphire bootlegs and deliberately passed them off as authentic.

[bb_hood]

Burned copies don't mean anything, but Sapphire and other games had factory pressed bootlegs made. With Sapphire no attempt was made to distinguish the bootlegs from real copies so plenty of collectors would have been buying them before anyone realized they were copies. You'd only know if you had a real copy to compare it to. If a flood of copies start floating around and people think they're real, the prices would drop.

Here's a site selling more factory pressed "repros". Some games weren't released here so are grey market, others were and are clear pirates. They look good too, no mention to their legality though. I'm sure plenty of people just love them and don't think of them as fake, they just think of them as reprints the same way books are later reprinted.

https://pceworks.wordpress.com/

Thats a big 'IF' though, if any very rare expensive game were to surface in any large quantity it would have to be nearly indistinguishable to fool people.

Reprints serve a purpose but they wont devalue a truly rare or valuable item.

[MetalFRO]

I'd like to see a universal PCE/TG16 clone that could natively use BOTH TurboChips and Hu-Cards in the same slot, w/o the use of an adapter, through perhaps some kind of switching system, or software trickery. Ideally, it would have good output (i.e. HDMI or at least an option for an RGB signal of some kind), 2 controller ports (as mentioned before), support for original controllers (both US & Japanese), and also a built-in CD drive. The Japanese aftermarket for PCE stuff isn't nearly as terrible (for the most part) as the US market, mostly because the PCE was huge in Japan, so any US games that originated in Japan are going to be far more common, and way more copies would naturally be on the market. I've often considered getting a PCE and just importing games, because they're still cheaper than buying most US releases, even with international shipping. And like the Sega CD, the PCE CD and/or TGCD will play CD-R copies. NOT THAT I'M ADVOCATING PIRACY, but if I ever want to play Syd Mead's Terraforming or something like that, it'll have to be a burned copy, because I'll never be able to afford the genuine article. Unless someone saw fit to re-release it, then I'd consider going that route.

[turboexpress]

if you tally up all the responses most people are pro-clone and think that clones don't drive prices up on original stuff.

ok, cool. :cool:

I really hope you are right!

[bb_hood]

if you tally up all the responses most people are pro-clone and think that clones don't drive prices up on original stuff.

ok, cool. :cool:

I really hope you are right!

I am anti-clone because Ive never met a clone that diddnt seem like a cheap-quality system.
I think that if wal-mart and gamestop started selling TG16 clone machines that only played original hu-cards, then yes ebay prices on original hu-cards would go up. There is still alot of room for the more 'common' TG games to increase in value. US Turbo Grafx games are hard to find.
This really wouldnt bother me because Ive got all the turbo/pc engine games I need. I have japanese versions of all the rarer stuff like cotton, terraforming, Super Air Zonk, Bonk 3; all were like 30$ each.

[BlastProcessing402]

It was only really popular in Japan, and a lot of the best stuff there was on CD-ROM. So a knockoff would have to include a CD drive (and somehow account for the system cards) to really be complete, and they'd still only have one market to sell the thing in. Even if they did sell it elsewhere, they'd then have to account for the different pinouts on the TG16 turbochips from the PCE hucards.

Seems like a lot of hassle for such a cult system. Easier to just knock out another NES, Super Nintendo, or Genesis clone, and almost certainly a better return on investment.

[Steve W]

if wal-mart and gamestop started selling TG16 clone machines that only played original hu-cards, then yes ebay prices on original hu-cards would go up. There is still alot of room for the more 'common' TG games to increase in value. US Turbo Grafx games are hard to find.

But I'd imagine that, because the Turbo didn't do so great over here, they'd either have a bunch of the more popular Hudsonsoft games built-in, or they'd maybe re-release a bunch of the better titles to accompany it, maybe even multi-carts. They couldn't just put it out like the retro NES/SNES/Genesis consoles in stores now, since the games aren't common.


Here's a good question... do you think anybody would ever design a PC Engine/TurboDuo plug-and-play? In the past decade we've had NES, Atari, Genesis, Commodore 64, and MSX on-a-chip technology - do you think NEC might do the same with the PC Engine? I'd like to say yes, but as cheap as used PC Engines are in Japan, I don't think it would be likely. There's plenty of cheap ways Japanese people can play their old PC Engine games. And since the market in Europe and America never took off, there'd be no reason to develop it for over here.