It's summer 1996. How can the USA Sega Saturn become successful?

[WelcomeToTheNextLevel]

On November 22, 1994, Sega launched the Saturn in Japan, to great success. But when it came time to introduce the Saturn in America, Sega didn't stick to their original September 2, 1995 launch date, jumping the system ahead to May 11, 1995 and only giving select retailers Saturns. The system came out with few games and many retailers pissed at Sega. Through the summer of 1995, the Sega Saturn sells slowly and the Sony PlayStation, released September 9, 1995, sells more units in its first two days alone than the Saturn could muster in its first four months.

Now it's June 1996. The PlayStation has been kicking the Saturn's ass in sales, and the Nintendo 64 is on its way. What can Sega do to make the Saturn successful in the USA?

I think that to make a successful Saturn, Sega would need to:

1) Keep supporting the Genesis. This seems counterproductive, but Sega itself was being hurt when they de-emphasized the Genesis in 1995. The 16 bit market was still doing very well in 1996: Nintendo only had a 16 bit console for most of that year, and they did well. Cut 16 bit marketing in 1997, not 1995.

2) No regional lockout. Many of the Saturn's best games were Japanese exclusive. Immediately remove regional lockout from newly produced Saturn systems, and let people know.

3) Get translating. Even without regional lockout, uptake of Japanese games will be limited. Localize a lot of the Japanese games, especially RPGs.

4) Sonic X-treme. This is still in development in June '96. Take it to completion and release it, even if it's a late '97 release.

5) "The Saturn is not our future." Don't say that at E3. Keep Saturn development going as long as possible - preferably until the Dreamcast launch.

[gameofyou]

I agree very strongly that they should have done #5. Even if it was just releasing Scenarios 2 & 3 of SFIII and Deep Fear. Also, don't piss off Working Designs, so that they would convert a few more games (like Grandia).

Also, they should have given away their Sega Graphics Library (SGL) to any developer that would take it.

[bb_hood]

Sega should have released alot more actual good games that Japan got that we did not.
The Saturn US library is garbage compared to what was only released in Japan.

Also, instead of a good Sonic game, we got Nights into Dreams. Nights is an excellent game but I think alot of people just diddnt understand/appreciate it.

[Jorpho]

2) No regional lockout. Many of the Saturn's best games were Japanese exclusive. Immediately remove regional lockout from newly produced Saturn systems, and let people know. I very much doubt the import scene was big enough in 1996 that sales of games in a language most people couldn't read would have saved the system. Localization would be the only way to go. But even then, I don't think any of the titles which were left in Japan would have qualified as a proper system-selling "killer app".

[Greg2600]

While I find each option very well thought up, and probably would have helped a bit, the truth is none of the above. The decision NOT to do a joint "SEGA PlayStation" with Sony, couple later with the E3 release fiasco, doomed the system, and indirectly Sega as well.

[celerystalker]

I very much doubt the import scene was big enough in 1996 that sales of games in a language most people couldn't read would have saved the system. Localization would be the only way to go. But even then, I don't think any of the titles which were left in Japan would have qualified as a proper system-selling "killer app".

I agree. By 1996, too much had gone wrong. Yes, the glut of good shooters and fighters would have been nice, cheap localizations, but that wasn't what people were buying at the time. In 1995, you could have bought copies of games like Galactic Attack and Street Fighter Alpha for next to nothing. People wanted sports games in 3D, Final Fantasy, 3D platformers, and Resident Evil. The Saturn was awesome at a lot of stuff, but it wasn't what people over in the US wanted, and even Dragon Force II and the other Shining Force III scenarios weren't going to change that, and awesome games like Sega Rally and Virtua Cop were getting matched by Gran Turismo and Time Crisis for lengthlier experiences... and the Metal Gear happened.

Going hard after the Dreamcast probably wasn't a terrible idea.

[SparTonberry]

3) Get translating. Even without regional lockout, uptake of Japanese games will be limited. Localize a lot of the Japanese games, especially RPGs.

The RPG genre didn't really get mainstream in America until FF7 was released. In the later part of 1997. After the Saturn was already in pretty bad shape.

[Tanooki]

Ehh...I'll give you some of those points. The first as a line of solid cash. Sonic at #4 would have been a help, but not a solution. And the #5 is something you ever say, ever. You don't see the new 2015 model car come out and the store talk crap about it and say wait for the next one, people learn it's crap, no faith in the product and they go elsewhere.

The thing is I'm sure being a Sega fan you remember the crap Sony pulled to put the first of the final early coffin nails into Sega as a hardware maker. Sure they had already laid plenty of nails with the stupid talk, the 32x, sega cd, getting into spats with EA too. They named a date, and they named a price. Sony laid back and pounced like the tiger on them and put their hardware out a month earlier and for $100 less. That was a death blow going out of the gate. Following it up as they did with the Sony brand, clout, media wing...they buried Sega while also swinging into the lie mode of the N64 kiddie box (despite when that started it having a higher percentage of T/M games. :)

Sega was just screwed, there was no being successful. The Saturn was a great system and had some nice stuff, especially games that didn't get imported and the Sega arcade games. But when Sony would setup timed or outright exclusives repeatedly on Sega right up to their death (Half Life Dreamcast finished, bribed company, canned it for PS2 release.) Sony kept driving one more nail into their final resting place as much as Sega did it to themselves with repeated mismanagement. It also didn't help they had a non-3D system doing sort of sloppy 3D through brute calculation with a system that was tricky enough as is to code in compared to the ease the PS1 had with that and it did to 3D stock.

[WelcomeToTheNextLevel]

I should clarify. By "successful" I don't mean "PS1-beating". The PS1 was going to be the generational winner. Maybe the N64 might have had a shot, but I doubt it. In North America, Saturn sold 2.7 million units. Sony sold 40.8 million PS1 units, and Nintendo sold 20.4 million N64 units. So "successful" would probably mean at least about 12 million unit sales in North America. At least 30% of PS1 sales. I think it could have been done. The 2D prioritizing hardware of the Saturn was never going to beat the 3D prioritizing PS1.

[sfchakan]

I think dropping the Saturn hardcore like Stolar did was not beneficial to Sega at all. Merely coasting and providing support, continuing to supply hardware and existing software would have been more beneficial in the long run. These were services the company had already invested in and could see some return on.

Surely, localizing a game here and there could have helped. There were still worthwhile games left in Japan. Were they killer apps? I'm not so sure, but there were definitely desirable games.

No, instead we buried SoA in a hole so deep they never got back out of.

Just earlier tonight, I was reading about how SoA cut off Working Designs' supply of memory carts (http://www.gaijinworks.com/interact/showthread.php?56-WD-Trivia-Storytime-Thread/page25). They were selling them to gamers since SoA decided to stop supplying them to retailers.

[Greg2600]

I should clarify. By "successful" I don't mean "PS1-beating". The PS1 was going to be the generational winner. Maybe the N64 might have had a shot, but I doubt it. In North America, Saturn sold 2.7 million units. Sony sold 40.8 million PS1 units, and Nintendo sold 20.4 million N64 units. So "successful" would probably mean at least about 12 million unit sales in North America. At least 30% of PS1 sales. I think it could have been done. The 2D prioritizing hardware of the Saturn was never going to beat the 3D prioritizing PS1.

Okay then. #1 would have helped for sure, continuing Genesis support. How much I don't know, because it was clear by '95 that Sega had little in the pipeline. Nothing like the titles SNES was still getting, many thanks to SuperFX and like chips. #2 regional unlocking was not happening...ever. Last thing Sega needed was to anger retailers further by allowing gamers to import games via black market rather than buy from them. #3 also not much of a help. Japanese RPG's on Saturn were a niche, that's all. Most of them wouldn't have sold enough to justify translation and import. #4 the overall treatment of Sonic at the time was very bad, but they really had run out of ideas. A true 3D Sonic likely would have gotten a colder reception than Crash, and definitely been dwarfed by Mario 64. #5 in order to not wave the white flag over Saturn, it would have had to be more successful. Third party support seemed lukewarm to begin with, and vanished quickly. I doubt it would have returned. Sega of Japan screwed the pooch every which way they could. The Dreamcast was DOA regardless. Sega has pissed off too many game publishers and retailers, it had no chance. They weren't winning them back that easily.

[bb_hood]

I dont see how continuing Genesis support would have helped at all. People were sick of the repeated systems that attached to the genesis that failed to support a large number of quality titles. When Saturn/Playstation came out nobody cared about genesis and would not be down for spending 30+$ on any genesis title. The 32x was a total mess, and I think alot of people thought the Saturn was going to be just more of the same. Back then people really diddnt care much about backwards compatibility.


People wanted sports games in 3D, Final Fantasy, 3D platformers, and Resident Evil. The Saturn was awesome at a lot of stuff, but it wasn't what people over in the US wanted, and even Dragon Force II and the other Shining Force III scenarios weren't going to change that, and awesome games like Sega Rally and Virtua Cop were getting matched by Gran Turismo and Time Crisis for lengthlier experiences... and the Metal Gear happened.

PlayStation really delivered when it came to the games. They released alot of stuff people wanted. All the really excellent games for saturn came out right before it was about to die. Even games like Panzer saga, magick knight rayearth, shining force 3 couldnt compare to Final Fantasy 7. Once FF7 was out that was it. FF7 was huge and many people bought a PlayStation just for FF7.

Gran Turismo is a great example as well.

[WelcomeToTheNextLevel]

I dont see how continuing Genesis support would have helped at all. People were sick of the repeated systems that attached to the genesis that failed to support a large number of quality titles. When Saturn/Playstation came out nobody cared about genesis and would not be down for spending 30+$ on any genesis title. The 32x was a total mess, and I think alot of people thought the Saturn was going to be just more of the same. Back then people really diddnt care much about backwards compatibility.

In 1995, the 16 bit market was still 64% of the total market. And that's with the PS1 and Saturn being out for a good chunk of the year and a shitload of other "32 bit" systems on the market. December is the most important month for video game sales, especially back then. Probably half of the console and game sales back then were in the 4th quarter of the year (October-December). So from summer of 1996, there was still the vast majority of '96 video game sales coming up. The SNES remained Nintendo's largest breadwinner even through the end of 1996. The news was on the 32 bit systems in 1995-1996, but the 16 bit systems were still making the most sales. The 32 bit systems didn't have a majority of the market until 1997.

[bb_hood]

In 1995, the 16 bit market was still 64% of the total market. And that's with the PS1 and Saturn being out for a good chunk of the year and a shitload of other "32 bit" systems on the market. December is the most important month for video game sales, especially back then. Probably half of the console and game sales back then were in the 4th quarter of the year (October-December). So from summer of 1996, there was still the vast majority of '96 video game sales coming up. The SNES remained Nintendo's largest breadwinner even through the end of 1996. The news was on the 32 bit systems in 1995-1996, but the 16 bit systems were still making the most sales. The 32 bit systems didn't have a majority of the market until 1997.

I think many people had the 16 bit systems already so they would buy games for them. However nobody would choose Saturn over PS1 because it could play genesis carts.. and for Sega to create more genesis software (over Saturn games) would have been a really bad idea. The launch games for Saturn were pretty lackluster to begin with.
The SNES is a totally different beast, that system had a following from beginning to end. Genesis was impressive at the beginning but once all the really good SNES titles were out the Genesis, to alot of people at least the Genesis became stale.

[Guntz]

I think dropping the Saturn hardcore like Stolar did was not beneficial to Sega at all. Merely coasting and providing support, continuing to supply hardware and existing software would have been more beneficial in the long run. These were services the company had already invested in and could see some return on.

Surely, localizing a game here and there could have helped. There were still worthwhile games left in Japan. Were they killer apps? I'm not so sure, but there were definitely desirable games.

The first main problem with that scenario is translation and localization costs money. Businesses must always balance the investment with the eventual return on said investment. Video game companies are still businesses. Back in 1996, I don't really blame Sega for not localizing niche games, because of their limited market appeal.

That leads to the second problem with the localization theory. Arcade games and RPGs were not very popular in the mid 90s. Final Fantasy 7 was an enigma that only really helped Squaresoft. Other RPGs that copied FF7 didn't do nearly as well. Arcade games really died off as the 90s came to a close, no hope of big sales there. Anything else on the Japanese Saturn was completely unmarketable in America, like the dating sims.

Sega's only real hope in 1996 would be to spend some money acquiring licenses to port popular western games to the Saturn. Fighting to get Tomb Raider 2 for instance would have been a good option. Any sort of FF7-like games for 1997 would have really helped too. Really, whatever was popular in America during 95 - 96, Sega should have been working to get on the Saturn somehow.

[sfchakan]

The 16 bit market was definitely still there. I don't know off-hand what SoA could have brought to the States for the rest of that holiday season, though. Surely there were some high-quality games that just needed a localization.

Perhaps partnering with Capcom for a US physical release of Mega Man: The Wily Wars? The game was fully developed and just had to be manufactured.

Daytona USA and Virtua Fighter ports were planned originally to use the Sega Virtua Processor used in Virtua Racing, but those games were scrapped at some point.

[Guntz]

The 16 bit market was definitely still there. I don't know off-hand what SoA could have brought to the States for the rest of that holiday season, though. Surely there were some high-quality games that just needed a localization.

Perhaps partnering with Capcom for a US physical release of Mega Man: The Wily Wars? The game was fully developed and just had to be manufactured.

Daytona USA and Virtua Fighter ports were planned originally to use the Sega Virtua Processor used in Virtua Racing, but those games were scrapped at some point.

Golden Axe III, Pulseman, MegaMan: The Wily Wars and Alien Soldier should have been obvious choices for localization. Those four were actually on the Sega Channel, so maybe 5 Americans got to play them. Bring over older Sega classics like Monster World IV too. The Genesis had a lot of classics stuck in Japan, Sega was literally leaving money on the table in 1995.

[homerhomer]

I bought PlayStation back then. And if I remember right, Sony was cheaper and seemed to have there sh!t together. Wasn't there rumors about the Saturn running hot?

Magazines would compare graphics ( because they were everything back then )of games and must of the time the PlayStation would look better (Toshinden, too funny) and with it being cheaper...$299 and with Sony having a reputation of quality. Plus I remember there not being that many games at the local game store. PlayStation was killing it.

Bad reputations are hard to fix.

Sega would need to beat Sony on all fronts with quality, power, price and library.

LOL, 2015 and nothing has changed. It's just Sony vs Microsoft. I have to admit Microsoft can sure scramble when they need to.

[Gentlegamer]

Final Fantasy 7 was an enigma that only really helped Squaresoft.

Final Fantasy VII could be said to have been the first "AAA game." It had huge mainstream marketing that hadn't been seen for a video game before.

[Aussie2B]

I don't know if anything could've saved the Saturn in the US. They needed to make an easier system to develop for, first of all. If they wanted to continue the kind of success they had with Genesis, then they needed to get more Western developers on board making games that people were actually interested in. In terms of Japanese games, I don't think most of the Japan-exclusive library would've made a big impact in the US. They needed to make a Sonic 4 or something. Continue the best-selling Japan-developed series that were on Genesis. Those are the main things.

[Tron 2.0]

I think dropping the Saturn hardcore like Stolar did was not beneficial to Sega at all. Merely coasting and providing support, continuing to supply hardware and existing software would have been more beneficial in the long run. These were services the company had already invested in and could see some return on.

Surely, localizing a game here and there could have helped. There were still worthwhile games left in Japan. Were they killer apps? I'm not so sure, but there were definitely desirable games.

No, instead we buried SoA in a hole so deep they never got back out of.

Just earlier tonight, I was reading about how SoA cut off Working Designs' supply of memory carts (http://www.gaijinworks.com/interact/showthread.php?56-WD-Trivia-Storytime-Thread/page25). They were selling them to gamers since SoA decided to stop supplying them to retailers.
This i remember when berine stolar was quoted for saying the saturn was not there future.What a way to be suicidal for SOA,when i was importing for the console.It did make me angry how most were japan exclusive.

[Tanooki]

I should clarify. By "successful" I don't mean "PS1-beating". The PS1 was going to be the generational winner. Maybe the N64 might have had a shot, but I doubt it. In North America, Saturn sold 2.7 million units. Sony sold 40.8 million PS1 units, and Nintendo sold 20.4 million N64 units. So "successful" would probably mean at least about 12 million unit sales in North America. At least 30% of PS1 sales. I think it could have been done. The 2D prioritizing hardware of the Saturn was never going to beat the 3D prioritizing PS1.

I didn't confuse that for a moment. My point was they screwed up so so badly the pasting they got kept them from selling systems for many reasons inside and out. There was no way to become successful with the way reality played out, and even had they done a lot more right, devious Sony would have really beat their ass with their scheming media arm, buying off entire game tactics (or 1+yr delays to them), and various other shenanigans. Sega had some decent properties to their own, but they were never mass loved nor that solid across the board like Nintendo had which kept the 64 afloat along with some of those Rare games too or they'd have been fairly well just as screwed. Sega could have done some of the stuff Sony did swiping games and doing partnerships towards games Americans would buy and they didn't, they let it ride and sloppily too.

As homer there restated above, he recalls the PS1 being less, as I said it was $100 less. Sony waited to burn Sega at the stake letting them name a date and price first while having systems already done and ready to go, so they shoved the date forward, were $100 less with superior hardware and game backers in the wings and Sega was screwed. Sega wasn't Nintendo of the 80s/early 90s, there was no way they'd peddle an inferior piece of hardware for a $100 more against what Sony was doing, even N64 for that matter despite being on carts came in even far less at $200.

[TheBenenator]

I'm not much of a Sega guy, and have only started picking up Genesis carts, but I'll give this a shot.

Get Squaresoft to partner with them for a major RPG.

Not FF7 in all likelihood -- the programmers would throw a fit from having to retarget YET AGAIN, this time for a system with even worse 3D -- but maybe a SaGa or Mana game? Or even steal the license to port a couple of Final Fantasy I-VI from Tose and showcase enhanced versions to show off the 2D graphics abilities?

*cough* Final Fantasy Tactics *cough*

Stealing something like Dragon Quest VII from Sony might've helped in Japan, not sure about the US.

Get the better Japan-only RPGs localized and released

This is a superset of the first thing, I guess, and would've come into play more in '97 and '98. The point is to undercut the perception of Sony being the unbeatable RPG juggernaut enough to keep sales from dropping further.

Release the graphics code Sega used to ease development

Send a message back in time

Further into fantasy than this thread probably is meant to go, but frankly I think that things were just too far gone by this point. The CD/32X->Saturn debacle had already destroyed consumer confidence in the brand and the surprise early launch damaged relations with their retailers.

Oh, and if this is true, Sega really *****ed the Golden Goose...pooch -- ah hell, ignore the mixed metaphor and just read it: :P
"One of the key reasons why I left Sega is when we had the opportunity to work with Sony, when [Sony Interactive CEO] Olaf Olafsson, [Sony Corporation of America president and CEO] Mickey Schulhof and I had agreed we were going to do one platform, share the development cost of it, share the probable loss for a couple years on it, but each benefit from the software we could bring to that platform,” he said. “Of course, in those days, we were much better at software than they were, so I saw this as a huge win. We went to Sony and they agreed, ‘Great idea.’ Whether we called it Sega-Sony or Sony-Sega, who cared? We go to Sega and the board turned it down, which I thought was the stupidest decision ever made in the history of business. And from that moment on, I didn’t feel they were capable of making the correct decisions in Japan any longer.” -- former Sega of America CEO Tom Kalinske, who resigned April 15, 1996. (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-02-23-is-sega-the-next-atari/)

Supposedly, Kalinske also fought against the early release.

[Greg2600]

Genesis support would have helped Sega's bottom line, not specifically Saturn. That was a folly on SOA part.

FF7 definitely sold a lot of PS1s but Sony had tons of cash to pay for development/publishing.

Many of the first run Saturn polygon games looked atrocious. Again, bad decisions from Japan prior to launch

[Tanooki]

Killing the Game Gear was equal stupidity too along with the Genesis/Nomad setup too. GG had gobbled up like a 1/3 of the market off of Gameboy and it would have done more had they kept pushing more games out as they had licensees making some quite nice stuff along side of their own things too. They had a strong source of retro gaming cash that could have come in, especially with Majesco handling the hardware at that rate on the cheap, and they threw it all away.

[sfchakan]

Golden Axe III, Pulseman, MegaMan: The Wily Wars and Alien Soldier should have been obvious choices for localization. Those four were actually on the Sega Channel, so maybe 5 Americans got to play them. Bring over older Sega classics like Monster World IV too. The Genesis had a lot of classics stuck in Japan, Sega was literally leaving money on the table in 1995.

I don't know about you, but those 5 games you mentioned by named would have been instant purchases for me back then. :guitar:

[SparTonberry]

Killing the Game Gear was equal stupidity too along with the Genesis/Nomad setup too. GG had gobbled up like a 1/3 of the market off of Gameboy and it would have done more had they kept pushing more games out as they had licensees making some quite nice stuff along side of their own things too. They had a strong source of retro gaming cash that could have come in, especially with Majesco handling the hardware at that rate on the cheap, and they threw it all away.

I've read arguments here that Pokemon alone was responsible for a lot of late-era Game Boy hardware sales. (thus, the portable market slumping)

Game Gear had also been comparatively struggling with third-party support, especially from key companies like Capcom and Konami (who didn't release anything) and Namco (who only released like a few retro classic ports).

[bb_hood]

I don't know about you, but those 5 games you mentioned by named would have been instant purchases for me back then. :guitar:

I would agree that they are awesome games, but at the same time I can understand why they did not release them, especially with megaman. Mega Man x3 was released at the end of 95. I cant see many people back then caring much about the Wily Wars when Snes already has Mega Man X, X2, X3, and 7.

[7th lutz]

I don't think there is much Sega Saturn could at that point compare to the 1993 to 1995 time period. The Sega Saturn already was hurt due to a rushed launch and the 32x mess.

I mentioned that time frame because Sega released the 32x in the states in 1994 and Sega rushed the Saturn launch in May of 1995.

The 32x was a mistake on multiple levels including causing bad pr for being so short lived. All the money spent on R&D, games and hardware on the 32x should've been spent on the Saturn, Genesis and Game Gear instead by Sega. I mentioned the Saturn in terms of titles in 1995.

The 32x also had rumored mill and prototype games that didn't come out and that is considered wasted money despite some those games were released on the Saturn.

[Sailorneorune]

1-3. FIRE. BERNIE. STOLAR.

4. Bring over all the Capcom fighters. So what if it requires a RAM cart? Bundle similar games together with a cart at a small premium. We loves us some 2D fighting games.

5. Be nice to Working Designs, so they will support both the Saturn and PlayStation. I will buy Lunar on both systems.

6. With 1-3 and 5 accomplished, ask Working Designs to lend a hand in localizing Sakura Wars.

7. See #6 also for the remaining 2/3 of Shining Force III.

8. Print more than 50 copies of Panzer Dragoon Saga (OK, so there were about 150,000 of these printed, but still... I believe no game without its own cabinet should be $300) :deadhorse:.

[sfchakan]

1-3. FIRE. BERNIE. STOLAR.

4. Bring over all the Capcom fighters. So what if it requires a RAM cart? Bundle similar games together with a cart at a small premium. We loves us some 2D fighting games.

5. Be nice to Working Designs, so they will support both the Saturn and PlayStation. I will buy Lunar on both systems.

6. With 1-3 and 5 accomplished, ask Working Designs to lend a hand in localizing Sakura Wars.

7. See #6 also for the remaining 2/3 of Shining Force III.

8. Print more than 50 copies of Panzer Dragoon Saga (OK, so there were about 150,000 of these printed, but still... I believe no game without its own cabinet should be $300) :deadhorse:.

Yes to all of that. /fanboydrool

[sfchakan]

I would agree that they are awesome games, but at the same time I can understand why they did not release them, especially with megaman. Mega Man x3 was released at the end of 95. I cant see many people back then caring much about the Wily Wars when Snes already has Mega Man X, X2, X3, and 7.

I think it would have sold decently well because Mega Man 2 and Mega Man 3 were very popular games.

[Tanooki]

I've read arguments here that Pokemon alone was responsible for a lot of late-era Game Boy hardware sales. (thus, the portable market slumping)

Game Gear had also been comparatively struggling with third-party support, especially from key companies like Capcom and Konami (who didn't release anything) and Namco (who only released like a few retro classic ports).

It was and it's not hard to track either. There isn't much data out there but what there is, in the past I know people could look up the yearly says of the systems (ie: Gameboy) and then also look up the sales of the Pokemon entries in those years too they came out. You'll find out that a large chunk of the Pokemon sales racked up against the new system sales and existing buyers too of the period as they sold like crack to those who still cared in the least bit about Gameboy, and then to another wave who just had to catch em all. Game Gear though pre-Pokemon had been eroding the GB pretty bad with the price drops and the comparatively priced color game carts they had with some solid titles, and I recall something like a 33-40% market penetration was thrown around then. Gameboy had slipped badly with them having that, Sega with their piece, and the other dudes (TE, Lynx, etc) gobbling up the scraps of the rest.


In all fairness I think among existing owners MM Wily Wars would have been a hit, maybe sold a few of those cheap Genesis systems at that rate too. It still is a draw, even the crappy ATGames portable emulator that refuses to add basic saving support featured on their latest revision MMWW and SuperSF2 on the box art. Seemed immensely retarded to me it didn't save since MM has no passwords on the Genesis (just battery.) I wish someone would hack that device and fix that, I'd buy it, because after 3 revisions they're clearly too lazy and incompetent to do it.

[Nathan Dunsmore]

I was just thinking about this the other day - could Shenmue and Virtua Fighter 3tb have prolonged the system's life had they been released?

[Tanooki]

Virtua Fighter might have helped slightly, but Shenmue no. That one was too obscure and different to catch enough people to make waves. Fans(fanboys) of the series think of it in the now usually as many would have with many things, but thinking of the Saturn release had it hit the system, it's too different especially from what was the hottest at that time to catch on I think. The 90s were all about the new 3D stuff sure, but it was the big age for fighting games, racing games, and a few other things.

[WelcomeToTheNextLevel]

I found a video online where a gamer says how he thinks the Saturn could have been saved. About from 8:00 to the end of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqx9Liby_uU

He mentioned a "Saturn 2.0" launch. Sounds like a good idea to me.

[sfchakan]

A port of Virtua Fighter 3 would have sold a bit, but I think the series lost some steam with the average gamer by then. It certainly wasn't the jump that Virtua Fighter 2 and VF 4 were from their predecessors.

A "one last hurrah" campaign for the 1998 holiday season in North America would have helped. Drop the price point to something sexy, eat a loss, and grease some wheels to get quality releases to North America.

[dendawg]

The simple truth is, the Saturn would have had a rough time even if Sega did everything right. There was just no stopping the Playstation juggernaut until the PS3 launch.

[Tanooki]

I found a video online where a gamer says how he thinks the Saturn could have been saved. About from 8:00 to the end of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqx9Liby_uU

He mentioned a "Saturn 2.0" launch. Sounds like a good idea to me.

No offense but you're grasping at straws as he is. Looking at your interests and user name on here, I honestly feel you can't have unclouded judgement on the subject of Sega. :) Even if the Saturn was handled to perfection, given the gimpiness of the system with 3D which would hinder stuff coming from the PS1, and because of how much Sony just buried both them and Nintendo that generation, they'd still have been screwed.

[SparTonberry]

The simple truth is, the Saturn would have had a rough time even if Sega did everything right. There was just no stopping the Playstation juggernaut until the PS3 launch.
I'd wonder if some of PlayStation's early momentum probably came from Sega and Nintendo's mistakes. (when Nintendo decided to make the N64 a cart console, it drove away third-parties, especially Japanese. Would be interesting to think about what if Nintendo did use CDs... or some CD-like disc, knowing Nintendo's preference to proprietary formats. How would that have changed things?)

[Tanooki]

I'd wonder if some of PlayStation's early momentum probably came from Sega and Nintendo's mistakes. (when Nintendo decided to make the N64 a cart console, it drove away third-parties, especially Japanese. Would be interesting to think about what if Nintendo did use CDs... or some CD-like disc, knowing Nintendo's preference to proprietary formats. How would that have changed things?)

Maybe. With Sega you had them bungle the 32x and sort of the SegaCD, and then they threw the Saturn under the bus as well. Factor in the under-designed system that had to calculate in software 3D instead of using chips like PS1/N64 did, you had a problem. Nintendo went and revenge burned Sony when they tried to screw them out of all their CD profits with shady contracts which caused the PS1 to exist, then Nintendo being stupid also ditched Philips and ended up with 20-30 dollar(just for the chips alone) cart costs which made games $50+ each with very limited space. They both screwed the pooch, but Sega had a track record of failure going and Sony really hurt them sandbagging their release coming up earlier yet and $100 less.

[celerystalker]

Reading this thread summarizes pretty well to me why the Saturn had no chance in the US. Not because of the negative reasons like the 32X, but the games people are calling for to save the system.

Don't get me wrong, they're awesome games. I've been importing Sakura Wars games since that time, but they wouldn't have been even remotely close to a system seller here, anymore than Snatcher didn't sell Sega CDs. Sega's import catalog is incredible, and would have summarily done nothing over here. People didn't give two shits about shooters over here. Lunar and its remakes are excellent, but Working Designs was never going to release anything in the kind of print run that it would be a system seller. I would have happily bought them up, as would just about everyone here, but we are very much the vocal minority.

Also, while the idea of prolonging the Genesis and Game Gear sounds nice and might have kept some revenue coming in, it hardly would have directly helped the Saturn. Consoles in that crossover period get sloppier versions of new-gen games more than anything. Had Pulseman, Alien Soldier, and the rest come over, they'd have done poorly to mediocre. Wily Wars was previous-gen stuff. Alien Soldier is an obtuse boss rush that, while I like it, is thoroughly inferior to Gunstar Heroes, which was hardly what made the Genesis sell. Pulseman wouldn't have seemed all that special had it come out at a time where mascot platformers were everywhere. I don't mean to insult those games. I like them and bought them, and still have them. However, in the context of the time, they weren't even sort of mainstream for appeal, as all 16 bit marketing was about how the systems could still offer high-end experiences with the likesof Donkey Kong Country or Vectorman. They were niche games then, and are still now, and their notoriety is greatly enhanced by being some of the few english-friendly import exclusives for the Mega Drive, which is one of the least loaded import libraries around.

Not in any way meant as an insult to Sega or its games, but these were exactly why Sega failed. Their brand of awesome wasn't what Americans were interested in anymore, and going even more Japanese would have only appealed to the hardcore who were already into these things. It took a developed collector's market to bring any notoriety to these games, even the good ones that did come out over here. There was a time when you could easily snap up copies of Guardian Heroes at retailers on clearance for $5, and no one cared. It was well after the fact that retro styles became fashionable again to the collector's market, which is a comparatively small sub-section on the overall marketplace that snapped up a bajillion copies of Crash and Spyro, while Galactic Attack, Guardian Heroes, Marvel Super Heroes, Night Warriors, Darius Gaiden, and more just languished, being outsold by shitty ports of Doom, Duke Nukem, and even freaking Hexen. People were way more into crap they'd turn their backs to as soon as a prettier new version would show up later, not the timeless classics that took too long to get the appreciation they deserved.

[Greg2600]

Yes Saturn had many fine arcade ports and niche games with strong cult followings today. That wasn't going to sell many systems in 1996.

[Kevincal]

Sega just totally screwed up by doing the surprise launch in May 1995... Their 2 most important games were not ready, virtua fighter and Daytona... once people saw those games didn't look that great on Saturn, they decided to wait for playstation with toshinden and ridge racer..... sega should have stuck with the original idea of saturnday sept. 2nd... they probably would have beat playstation cus by then they would have polished their games much more and attracted more 3rd parties... also obviously the 32x was a huge mistake and played a part in taking segas focus and resources away from Saturn. Saturn was too little too late cus playstation came out with a friggen bang in sept 95 and never looked back. right away tons of great software and it hasn't stopped to this day for sony and their playstation brand... sure ps3 wasn't a mega hit but it did just fine. to be fair, sony had loads more money to play with than sega in 1995 1996.

but to play with the topic. summer 1996 sega should have had Saturn hardware and software even lower in price than they did and they should have had a better marketing campaign. that's pretty much it. that alone would have attracted more 3rd party support which Saturn was greatly lacking compared to playstation in the usa... I assume we are talking about usa here... japans a whole nother story obviously. whole nother world where actually Saturn probably beat playstation? about even lets call it

me personally. I was a big genesis fan in the early 90s and jumped on the 32x bandwagon a short while. sega cd was never of interested to me, too pricey for what seemed like nothing special. why do I need sonic cd when I have the sonics on genesis. SPEAKING of sonic, that right there was a big fat fail for sega. here the Saturn is a 2d powerhouse yet they don't continue the awesome 2d sonic series from the genesis? wtf were they thinking... sonic the hedgehog 4 would have been the bees knees. and no sonic and knuckles technically officially isn't sonic 4 its more like sonic 3.5 and lets not even talk about knuckles chaotix a very weak game with broken play mechanics..

poor sega....I would much rather they had stuck around than Microsoft entered the gaming scene, I detest anything xbox. you know what also killed the Saturn too early is again sega making the mistake of releasing a system too soon in the dreamcast. sega should have waited to release dreamcast alongside ps2 with dreamcast also being able to play dvd movies and games etc. dreamcast 3d graphics were just as good as ps2.

[Alianger]

Warp back to '94 and make a better first impression. ;)

[PreZZ]

Sega of america didnt like the saturn gpu and had proposed sega of japan to choose silicon graphics new gpu in development. Soj turned it down and it became the n64 gpu... now imagine if the saturn had n64 graphics with the cd format capabilities, it would have been the best hardware of the generation hands down.

[sfchakan]

You can keep your blurry, muddy and empty early 3D shitfests. I'll take my 2d gems just fine, thanks. :)

[PreZZ]

Yeah 3d games from that generation aged badly, but im sure they could have made good 2d games with that gpu too... mortal kombat, mischief maker and yoshi looked great on n64

[celerystalker]

You can keep your blurry, muddy and empty early 3D shitfests. I'll take my 2d gems just fine, thanks. :)

This is kinda my whole thing... if Sega had done the things it would have taken to be popular at the time, we'd have missed out on some of their best, most beautiful, and weirdest stuff. If I could go back, I'd leave it as it was, because the games they couldn't hardly give away like Guardian Heroes and Galactic Attack were the games I wanted. The Nintendo 64 is where I learned to stop trusting Nintendo as a brand. This is an entirely subjective statement, but the N64 is a turd with about 10 great games and a bunch of garbage, and almost half of the good ones are wrestling games, whereas the Saturn library is awesome and varied. Both as a system and a first-party developer, Sega spanked Nintendo in that generation; just nobody cared until long afterward.

Mischief Makers was pretty sweet, though.

[Gamevet]

1-3. FIRE. BERNIE. STOLAR.

4. Bring over all the Capcom fighters. So what if it requires a RAM cart? Bundle similar games together with a cart at a small premium. We loves us some 2D fighting games.

5. Be nice to Working Designs, so they will support both the Saturn and PlayStation. I will buy Lunar on both systems.

6. With 1-3 and 5 accomplished, ask Working Designs to lend a hand in localizing Sakura Wars.

7. See #6 also for the remaining 2/3 of Shining Force III.

8. Print more than 50 copies of Panzer Dragoon Saga (OK, so there were about 150,000 of these printed, but still... I believe no game without its own cabinet should be $300) :deadhorse:.

Bernie Stolar had nothing to do with the failure of the Saturn. If anything, he was trying to cut losses for Sega, before the console sunk the company completely. The expensive hardware design of the console meant that Sega couldn't compete with Sony, and Stolar (Tom Kelinski knew that as well) knew that continuing to throw money at a money-pit was not the answer for Sega's future.

While I appreciate the efforts Working Designs made for Sega's consoles, their game sales were hardly worth noting. Even their support for the Playstation didn't create a large amount of software sales for the company.

The one saving grace for the Saturn would have been a strong output of sports titles for the North American audience. Sega should of had another Joe Montana Football game available for the Saturn in the fall of 95. The Playstation had NFL Gameday available that fall, and it was one of the key titles for the Playstation during that holiday season.

[Alianger]

You can keep your blurry, muddy and empty early 3D shitfests. I'll take my 2d gems just fine, thanks. :)

Except wouldn't that not be a problem when you have CD storage? Carts was the cause for this afaik.

Anyway there's really no saving it as late as 1996, even tying top selling third party devs to them and getting stuff like FF7 and MGS, their ports would've been inferior graphically and probably released later due to the system being harder to develop for.

I do find it interesting that games like Rayman and Oddworld sold so well though. Maybe a Saturn 2 geared completely for 2D (no ram carts needed, for example) would've turned a profit at least.

[TonyTheTiger]

The key complication with this question is that it's effectively asking "what could Sega have done that would not have been Sega-like."

[Tanooki]

Which basically is the answer to the question. There is no way going back to 1996 that Sega could have been successful and really that could be said for some years earlier. They got a huge lucky break with the Genesis and the gap into the SNES and in the US their arrogant and disgusting marketing department with their shady ad campaign was a good help too. At first against 8bit Nintendo it made sense, then it got into selective lying against the SNES and yet it still worked, for awhile. But once the ads and the hardware weren't cutting it anymore, and when they decided to release one bad idea after another, it was game over. Good will was lost, then the fans in good numbers bailed, and they had nothing to live for but shattered dreams and a life support machine that wouldn't last forever which the Dreamcast was the victim of when that plug was pulled.

[Gamevet]

Which basically is the answer to the question. There is no way going back to 1996 that Sega could have been successful and really that could be said for some years earlier. They got a huge lucky break with the Genesis and the gap into the SNES and in the US their arrogant and disgusting marketing department with their shady ad campaign was a good help too. At first against 8bit Nintendo it made sense, then it got into selective lying against the SNES and yet it still worked, for awhile. But once the ads and the hardware weren't cutting it anymore, and when they decided to release one bad idea after another, it was game over. Good will was lost, then the fans in good numbers bailed, and they had nothing to live for but shattered dreams and a life support machine that wouldn't last forever which the Dreamcast was the victim of when that plug was pulled.

Don't let your personal bias towards Nintendo blind you to what really happened. Sega pretty much screwed themselves over by releasing the Sega CD and 32X in North America. The Mega-CD became a necessity in Japan, because of the popularity of NEC's PC-Engine and it's CD add-on in Japan. The Mega-Drive was a distant 3rd in Japan and Sega had hoped that the introduction of the Mega-CD would help gain some ground there. The introduction of the Sega-CD slowed down the momentum that Sega had built with the Genesis and the 32X pretty much killed it all together. It would have made more sense for the Genesis to have been just the console, with a slow progression towards the Saturn, than having the confusing add-ons they had brought with the Sega CD and 32X. The momentum that SOA had created with the Genesis was pretty much killed with the introduction of those add-on devices.

[Alianger]

What was the deal with not using ram carts more for boosting graphics in 3D games? I've heard that at least one game did this (Final Fight Revenge).

[Tanooki]

I don't really have a personal bias with Nintendo anymore, in the 80s and 90s sure, but not now. I meant it at face value, Sega got a hell of a break with the Genesis when they dropped it and then extended it with their ad campaign they ran. Even Sega said years later they disliked the company and their tactics they hired for their US ads. And despite that break they screwed it up with their badly handled addons to the Genesis and how they tanked and screwed up the Saturn even before it retail. It was like a really bad one two punch to Sega because they hosed over their users with the accessory devices to the console, then they made an under-performing (for 3D) Saturn which was grossly complicated to program for due to its design which did them no favors. It made it easy for Sony to swoop in and wreck them.

[Gamevet]

What was the deal with not using ram carts more for boosting graphics in 3D games? I've heard that at least one game did this (Final Fight Revenge).


The RAM carts could hold more texture memory, but would provide no increase in 3D performance for the console. The RAM carts were beneficial for sprite based fighters, because they could hold more sprite data for each character, allowing for more frames of animation per character.

[Tanooki]

Exactly. I had the Action Reply 4M+ or whatever it was branded. That thing was awesome because some imports like XMen vs Street Fighter required using it (or greatly benefited I forget) and also it allowed mass storage of save files since the CR2032 in the Saturn was flaky at best, plus if you wanted, it cheated and allowed imports to work as well without mods/burning stuff.

[Gamevet]

I used the Japanese RAM cart I got with Dark Savior with the NA version of Marvel Super Heroes.

[SparTonberry]

I don't really have a personal bias with Nintendo anymore, in the 80s and 90s sure, but not now. I meant it at face value, Sega got a hell of a break with the Genesis when they dropped it and then extended it with their ad campaign they ran. Even Sega said years later they disliked the company and their tactics they hired for their US ads.

Sega's Genesis-era commercials were at least pretty amusing even if they were angry (that even '90s then-Nintendo-biased kid me could mostly find amusing).
I think it was Nintendo's "Play It Loud" (1994 until N64 launch) that was really tasteless (you really nailed that 9-14 demographic, Nintendo! So while I probably laughed at them as a kid, I can only facepalm today.) EarthBound "This Game Stinks!" is probably the most famous victim, as being an RPG with an unfamiliar IP and non-CGI in WOW-CGI 90s would've been tough even with good marketing. I think the Yoshi's Island barfing guy commercial was the lowest point they sunk, but it had IP recognition to save it.

[Tanooki]

Well as I recall reading, when the clueless Japanese office caught wind of the ads they weren't too pleased and eventually fired the group considering them both angry and dishonorable since they amounted at first to angry, then later to lies and misdirection. Even as a teenager the ads made me furious, not just them but other companies, this isn't a NIntendo fanboy thing to be clear. I've taken a stance for years now when people do blatantly lie to sell their goods I refuse to buy them. I swore off Sega and didn't even own their stuff until the very late 90s because of it with the Dreamcast. Sony with all the strong arm tactics and combative rudeness in the press towards both Nintendo and Sega to keep just twisting the knife stopped me from owning anything of theirs console wise until 2001 when I got a PS2 at Midway and shortly after in 02 I got a PSOne+LCD combo system too. I don't 100% block out bastard behavior, but when they stop and prove they can be less douchy I'll come around. With Nintendo and Play it Loud, I hated those ads, I got the point but I hated 90s hip crap advertising so I didn't buy any of their play it loud systems, and the games were mostly ignored too, but I mean most of the stuff had it branded on the cardboard anyway which was annoying even if they weren't really part of that offensive stupidity campaign.

[Jorpho]

I don't really have a personal bias with Nintendo anymore, in the 80s and 90s sure, but not now.wat the actual i can't even :beaten:

...Wait, you're using some weird definition of "personal bias", aren't you?

[TonyTheTiger]

Don't let your personal bias towards Nintendo blind you to what really happened. Sega pretty much screwed themselves over by releasing the Sega CD and 32X in North America. The Mega-CD became a necessity in Japan, because of the popularity of NEC's PC-Engine and it's CD add-on in Japan. The Mega-Drive was a distant 3rd in Japan and Sega had hoped that the introduction of the Mega-CD would help gain some ground there. The introduction of the Sega-CD slowed down the momentum that Sega had built with the Genesis and the 32X pretty much killed it all together. It would have made more sense for the Genesis to have been just the console, with a slow progression towards the Saturn, than having the confusing add-ons they had brought with the Sega CD and 32X. The momentum that SOA had created with the Genesis was pretty much killed with the introduction of those add-on devices.

Eh, the Sega CD didn't do much damage. If anything people were just generally apathetic about it. It didn't come out late enough to encroach on the Saturn. But the key issue was that, even during it's heyday, Sega never quite figured out the home console market. Sega was primarily an arcade game manufacturer that got lucky for a brief period in the 90s thanks to some very fortuitous circumstances. A lot of people forget that the Genesis had a completely different personality for the first couple years of its lifespan. It was marketed in the same way the Neo Geo eventually would be. As a means of playing "real" arcade games in your home. Golden Axe and Altered Beast were set up to be its system sellers but that didn't really cut it. People were still happy with the NES. It wasn't until Sega switched gears and picked a fight with the Super Nintendo with Sonic the Hedgehog and Mortal Kombat that the Genesis hit its stride. The company was always struggling with mismanagement and its stream-of-consciousness "put to market whatever random idea we had this weekend" behavior eventually caught up with it. And the straight up antagonistic relationship the American and Japanese branches had going for years made it effectively impossible for any unified "voice" to exist within the company.

People love to talk about how great the Saturn did in Japan but let's be real here. It only did halfway decent because Nintendo made some questionable choices of their own with the N64. The Saturn did okay in Japan. It was hardly a phenomenon. So what's really the question here? Is it "what could Sega have done to make the Saturn perform as satisfactory in the U.S. as it did in Japan" or is it "what could Sega have done to make the Saturn a success?" The former is answerable with some revised history. The latter is basically a fantasy land scenario where Sega is a completely different company.

[Gentlegamer]

Tony, you left out the EA 'special relationship' that saw Genesis get nearly royalty-free optimized versions of Madden and NHL while SNES received bad ports until about 93/94.

Sega really rode the reputation of being the sports system of choice among that era's "bro gamers."

[Tanooki]

wat the actual i can't even :beaten:

...Wait, you're using some weird definition of "personal bias", aren't you?

No I don't and why you keep got to acting like a douche towards me? I think I was quite clear, my bias with them was from previous generations. Currently I don't own a modern Nintendo console, and I don't have the one from last generation too. They've driven me off their home systems, so I wouldn't call that a positive personal bias towards them when the only new system I have is a PS4. I'll throw the praises of theirs pre-Wii, but from there forward I ditched every piece of hardware they've made other than the 3DS.


I never heard of that being used before, bro gamer, when it came to Genesis with how EA handled their releases and the royalties around them with Sega vs the big fees and watered down garbage EA shoveled elsewhere for some years. I imagine since there weren't really many console based FPS then that the sports games really were the bro games of the era I guess along with the more edgy platformers that did the run and gun stuff, and racing had its thing even then too along with the big following for the dudes who wanted the ever more violent 1on1 fighters.

[Jorpho]

They've driven me off their home systems, so I wouldn't call that a positive personal bias towards them when the only new system I have is a PS4. I'll throw the praises of theirs pre-Wii, but from there forward I ditched every piece of hardware they've made other than the 3DS....Yes, that's called a bias. A "negative bias" if you want to be picky, but the word "bias" by no means is limited to a favorable opinion.

[Tanooki]

I follow that, but as I also said I'm positive on the 3DS. On the larger scale I see myself fairly neutral to their further existence. :) I'd rather not see them make another console if they keep going down the same path, but I really do enjoy their handheld division and what they've done in that space. It's why you find when topics come up I go back to the thing about hoping the NX is maybe some device going by their own talking that's scalable hardware so it can be a console or handheld, the games work on one device, they don't play into the game with Sony and MS, but do instead invade the growing space of the other mobile markets. A good Nintendo box would be one that can take Android made games along with stuff genuinely made for it, easily coded for, cheaper priced on itself and the media, yet while having the high end performance of like the Nvidia Shield console and then some for good measure so it lasts some years. I'm just neutral on it really for now, waiting pattern to see how they approach the future. Depending how they go, they'll be a memory to me, or one to make more. I don't want the company dead or alive at this rate as I have no stake in it other than the occasional random 3DS game purchase.

[Gentlegamer]

And speaking of EA Sports, I think that's another reason Sega dropped off after the Genesis. EA moved to Sony, and gave token support to Sega, costing it the sports prestige it once enjoyed.

This quote from the videogamecritic.com Saturn review describes it fairly well:


My personal memories of the Saturn involve my longtime buddy Eric, who opted for a Saturn over the Playstation for Christmas 1995. I had purchased a Playstation in November of that year, and for weeks I tried to convince Eric to go with the Playstation instead. He was convinced however that a Sega system would deliver far better sports titles, which he preferred. Unfortunately his assumption proved incorrect. The early Sega Saturn sports games were fairly awful, and Electronic Arts delayed its Saturn sports titles for months at a time. I still remember Eric calling EA out of desperation to obtain the latest release dates for upcoming games. Years later, Eric relented and bought himself a Playstation. Ironically, he gave me his Saturn, and I've been enjoying it ever since.


And after Saturn, EA famously refused to support Dreamcast until it sold a million consoles... then continued to refuse after it easily passed that sales mark.

I believe it was either Saturn or Dreamcast where EA tried to get another sweetheart deal by demanding to be the exclusive sports licensee, even excluding the Sega Sports line.

[Tanooki]

EA has always been about lying and manipulating consumers both behind the scenes and publicly. They acted like they still cared about Sega but we know now they were ticked off about the system and at Sega so they threw them under the bus. Then they pulled the classic Nintendo treatment type garbage to come (with Wii and WiiU) on the Dreamcast saying they'd not support until X systems sold, then didn't do a damn thing what so ever. The tactic worked so well it helped put one of those final nails in the Sega coffin and then the left over nailed and unused hammer were then directed at Nintendo by them and most other third parties. There's a lot of vindictive tactics some studios take part in and due to their size the other small fish and sheep roll right along with it. It was super sleazy when they made like you'd find them on the Sega stage for support, to then have that bomb of a shock that year at E3 where the EA head stood up along side of the Sony one promoing the PS2 basically waggling a big middle finger in their direction.

[Gamevet]

Eh, the Sega CD didn't do much damage. If anything people were just generally apathetic about it. It didn't come out late enough to encroach on the Saturn. But the key issue was that, even during it's heyday, Sega never quite figured out the home console market. Sega was primarily an arcade game manufacturer that got lucky for a brief period in the 90s thanks to some very fortuitous circumstances. A lot of people forget that the Genesis had a completely different personality for the first couple years of its lifespan. It was marketed in the same way the Neo Geo eventually would be. As a means of playing "real" arcade games in your home. Golden Axe and Altered Beast were set up to be its system sellers but that didn't really cut it. People were still happy with the NES. It wasn't until Sega switched gears and picked a fight with the Super Nintendo with Sonic the Hedgehog and Mortal Kombat that the Genesis hit its stride. The company was always struggling with mismanagement and its stream-of-consciousness "put to market whatever random idea we had this weekend" behavior eventually caught up with it. And the straight up antagonistic relationship the American and Japanese branches had going for years made it effectively impossible for any unified "voice" to exist within the company.

I think you're missing the point. The Sega CD took game development away from the Genesis, which was still going strong in late 1993. It was like the Sega CD was competing against the Genesis for consumers interested in a Sega console. You also had Sega of America investing in a multi-media creation studio that created very little to justify its existence. Sega of Japan pretty much killed off any game development offers for the Mega-CD in 1994 and then did the same for the Genesis in 1995. The shift from the Genesis being #1 in North America, to the SNES starting to dominate in late 1994 had a lot to do with software production for the Genesis dropping off.

You're way under-selling what Tom Kalinski did to get the Genesis where it was by the end of 1991. He used the same strategy he had used to sell the He-Man toyline while he was at Mattel. He pushed the product by having a cartoon to promote the character (much like he did with He-Man) and he made sure that every Genesis sold had the game in the box. It's not like Mattel hadn't used a similar strategy when they were advertising the Intellivision. They compared the Intellevision head-to-head with the Atari VCS. The Sega Scream also had a pop-culture status, as even people that didn't play videogames were saying it.

The Genesis was already picking up steam before Sonic the Hedgehog was released. My adult friends and I were playing Madden and other sports games on the Genesis back in 1990/1991. I also had friends that didn't play Sonic and strictly bought sports titles for the console. Sega advertising pushed Sega Sports, and they licensed pro athletes like Joe Montana, Tommy Lasorda and Buster Douglass to promote their sports titles.




People love to talk about how great the Saturn did in Japan but let's be real here. It only did halfway decent because Nintendo made some questionable choices of their own with the N64. The Saturn did okay in Japan. It was hardly a phenomenon. So what's really the question here? Is it "what could Sega have done to make the Saturn perform as satisfactory in the U.S. as it did in Japan" or is it "what could Sega have done to make the Saturn a success?" The former is answerable with some revised history. The latter is basically a fantasy land scenario where Sega is a completely different company.

Yeah, Sega's home consoles were never successful in Japan. If SOJ was up-front with SOA about the Saturn, the game developers for the console in the West might have been better prepared for the launch in North America. They pretty much put a road-block on the chances for the Saturn's success outside of Japan. They were prideful fools whose actions led to the demise of the company.


Tony, you left out the EA 'special relationship' that saw Genesis get nearly royalty-free optimized versions of Madden and NHL while SNES received bad ports until about 93/94.

Sega really rode the reputation of being the sports system of choice among that era's "bro gamers."

The Genesis got optimized versions, because it was the lead platform for those sports titles. It's like the 1st Earthworm Jim being a better game on the Genesis, because it was the lead platform, while EWJ2 was better on the SNES because it was the lead platform for that game.

[Gentlegamer]

Genesis was lead platform because EA blackmailed Sega into a sweetheart licensing deal.

[celerystalker]

You know, until that Console Wars book came out, almost nobody talked about Tom Kalinske. Now, it's quoted like it's the new bible and he's the new Jesus. Seriously, I'm sure there's quite a bit of merit to his stories and interviews, but let's be real about this. It's one perspective in a massive picture. If you want to talk overselling importance, let's stop acting like industry insiders because we read books and articles. Being aware of a new perspective is great. Revising history with it as the new truth is as stupid as a kid going away to school, hearing that the moon landing was fake and FDR planned Pearl Harbor, and going home to "educate" the little people back home. I'm not saying it should be ignored, but keep it in perspective with this stuff.

We're all armchair quarterbacks here, guessing like we know better. Be honest, we're all guessing. It's fun to speculate. Then, in a few years we can do this shit all over again about something else like the Wii U, and our hero can be Reggie. We'll act like we were there when he helped reimagine VH1, and talk about Nintendo of Japan was too stubborn to embrace his vision. It'll be great.

These topics are fun, but the crap of quoting these books like they're absolute truth is getting out of hand on the internet.

[Tanooki]

No doubt, why think for yourself when the research is already there, must be true, and is so easily copied and pasted thanks to keyboard shortcuts?

Reggie, in that role? About as likely as people waking up someday with all the confederacy overkill lately and deciding to call the civil war going forward the war of northern aggression. Not happening. :D

[Gamevet]

Genesis was lead platform because EA blackmailed Sega into a sweetheart licensing deal.

That's pretty much a moot point. EA also supported the Amiga and C64, and there were many Amiga ports brought over to the Genesis by EA.

Compared to Nintendo's restrictions for 3rd parties, everyone got a better deal by publishing for the Genesis.

[Bhris]

Well, Sega was screwed out the gate considering that the system was not originally built for 3D games which was the future.

However, do you think they could have carved out a larger market for themselves had they released more arcade-style games like Capcom's Alien vs Predator? I read that a version was supposed to be released for 32X but canned. Games like that were pretty popular from what I remember and I myself would have looked more forward to that then Shinobi Legions. Digitized sprite games, aside from Mortal Kombat, looked like they would be more at home on the already outdated 3DO and Jaguar systems. But having a system that could do full justice to traditional arcade-style graphics would have been a good selling point for gamers like me.

I think trying to get Japanese games localized would also have been a wise decision. Anime was starting to blow up in the US and they could have taken advantage of that. Policenauts in the US would have been great. I was a big fan of Japanese cartoons since a little kid and to me, any game that had anime/manga style art in the cover got me interested because it looked more like a cool cartoon as opposed to the sword and sorcery Boris Vallejo-style art that every Japanese game seemed to get.