KOEI tactical military games -- Liberty or Death

[Tanooki]

Over the weekend I came across this one complete in the box, normally I would have ignored it but the subject matter got the better of me. The 80 page manual is a lot to take in. I tried playing it for maybe 45min~ yesterday and I was more or less confused by the whole thing. Eventually I was able to get my army from one province to another and pounded 2 british units at a fort and won. A round after I lost grossly in another area well outnumbered. A round later I massed an army and went after Boston but had to turn it off, I think I could have handled that one maybe as I had more units. In that time I had to bribe one general with 50 gold not to turncoat and run.

I think what I'm totally lost on is how to micromanage all the various aspects of resources, paying generals, getting the gear, and so on as you're only given around a $1500 allowance up front and after that I'm not sure where it's coming from.

I'd like to give this a fair shake, but if this is just well over my head I'll have to ebay it to get back when I put into it which I'd rather not do.

[Emperor Megas]

How much does it go for and how much did you pay for it, if you don't mind my asking. The game has been something of a curiosity for me since I first heard of it a few years ago.

[kupomogli]

I'm not sure how Liberty or Death works, but usually with the Koei games, you start with a certain amount of funding, then you receive funding depending on how much economy you have twice every year. I think once in June and once in December and then in August your crops grow and you get food.

It seems that they made a lot of strategy games early on and because of the limitations it's too hard to figure out how to do some stuff. I started playing Gemfire but because of the limitations there were some things either you couldn't do or I couldn't figure out to do. I couldn't find out how to move leaders from one location to another for example and in a RotK style strategy game, stuff like that is a pretty huge requirement if you're looking to expand territory and keep your bordering territories safe. Because of that I quit playing the game and don't plan on trying it again. I'd rather just play a newer game where they make it clear how to do certain options.

[celerystalker]

It runs on the same system as games like Genghis Khan, Gemfire, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, etc. My brother is quite the aficianado on the SNES version of that game. That, and PTO II on Saturn. Jesus, he's played some PTO II...

If you like any of those other games, it's a solid one. I think I liked Romance III the best, though I did play a lot of Genghis Khan on NES when I was about 13.

[Tanooki]

I don't mind saying and it was $35 and I know on ebay I would get it back after fees so that's why I grabbed it. The cryptic stuff is my problem as it just throws you into it so I feel lost.

[Edmond Dantes]

Honestly, Koei games tend to LOOK more cryptic than they are. After a bit of tinkering its easy to figure stuff out.

I remember playing Liberty or Death and feeling like it was just ROTK II with an American Revolution setting. Some of the options are pretty much direct parallels. But I was a kid so I may be remembering stuff wrong. Still, its not as confusing as you think, it just LOOKS like it is.

[bb_hood]

Honestly, Koei games tend to LOOK more cryptic than they are. After a bit of tinkering its easy to figure stuff out.


So true, actually this is where most of the fun comes into play. Figuring out the different aspects of the game and discovering how to succeed in strategy games is both fun and rewarding.
My favorite Koei game is Uncharted Waters 2.



, and so on as you're only given around a $1500 allowance up front and after that I'm not sure where it's coming from.


Back in olden days $1500 was like 15 billion

[goldenband]

It definitely takes several hours, at least, to get past the initial learning curve with most Koei games -- but once you do, it's usually worth it.

That said I really struggled with Operation Europe for Genesis, and still didn't really feel like I was figuring it out after the first couple hours. OTOH my wife and I had a great time playing Genghis Khan II on Genesis for hours and hours one weekend, and we found it totally engrossing once we got past that critical point. I think that one's likely to be a real winner.

I just bought Nobunaga's Ambition: Lord of Darkness for SNES and was able to pick up some of the basics pretty quickly. In general I think the military sims like Operation Europe and P.T.O. have a tougher learning curve than the ruler sims like Nobunaga and ROTK; I think Operation Europe might be too ambitious to actually be fun. But Liberty or Death has the reputation of being easier to pick up.

Speaking of ROTK, I've only played the original on NES, but I've played the living hell out of it, to the point where I pretty much know every important exploit in the game. I suspect it's simplistic compared to the sequels (haven't really played it), but I still love it.

P.T.O. II, interesting to hear that your brother's played that a lot, celerystalker. I really want to pick that one up for Saturn.

BTW OP, which system is your Liberty or Death for?

[Tanooki]

It's the SNES version. I've touched nobunaga a few times before over the last 15+ years on nes emulators but never got far.

[Edmond Dantes]

The original Nobunaga on the NES is freaking impossible. Not due to learning curve, but simply due to how you usually get attacked on your first turn and don't have the resources to mount a defense, and then even if you survive you'll be behind for the rest of the game unless you get lucky.

Luckily the second Nobunaga balanced everything out.

[celerystalker]

I always found more success on the NES Nobunaga's Ambition and Genghis Khan by dueling instead of traditional fighting in early skirmishes, as I never had the troops to win until later in the campaign.

[Edmond Dantes]

You can duel in Nobunaga's Ambition on NES?

[Leo_A]

I enjoyed PTO2 on the SuperNes, but it was too complicated for its own good. The manual left a lot of detail out and despite probably 20 hours invested into it during the 1990's, there was still stuff I didn't quite grasp.

I want to give the Aerobiz franchise a shot, someday. Not military, but definitely in a similar style.

[Tanooki]

Aerobiz I've had before, can't say I really won at that one either but not exactly failed, though I never let it run to completion. I basically scraped by and held on using just a few routes until I got bored. It's not a bad game but it's not crazy like Liberty or Death or the asian warring games with cryptic details and numbers everywhere as it's not straight forward with the layout.

[goldenband]

If I were to recommend a starter Koei game for someone, it'd honestly be the original ROTK. It's got a lot of options, but it doesn't have a lot of options-within-options (if that makes sense), and once you get the hang of the basic feature set you've pretty much got the gist.

OTOH, the best way to win at ROTK is to basically break the game by fcnzzvat sver nggnpxf naq fcraqvat 1 tbyq cre ghea ba guvatf (ROT13), so maybe it's not the best choice. :D But I still find it has a super-addictive quality that, so far, has only been matched by Genghis Khan II out of the Koei games I've played.

BTW I find it helps tremendously in ROTK to have a text file with notes that I update as I play -- it makes it much easier to keep everyone and everything straight in your head. If the thought of doing that makes someone say "That's pretty much the opposite of what I want from a game", then maybe Koei games aren't for them.

[Bronty-2]

If I were to recommend a starter Koei game for someone, it'd honestly be the original ROTK. It's got a lot of options, but it doesn't have a lot of options-within-options (if that makes sense), and once you get the hang of the basic feature set you've pretty much got the gist.

OTOH, the best way to win at ROTK is to basically break the game by fcnzzvat sver nggnpxf naq fcraqvat 1 tbyq cre ghea ba guvatf (ROT13), so maybe it's not the best choice. :D But I still find it has a super-addictive quality that, so far, has only been matched by Genghis Khan II out of the Koei games I've played.

BTW I find it helps tremendously in ROTK to have a text file with notes that I update as I play -- it makes it much easier to keep everyone and everything straight in your head. If the thought of doing that makes someone say "That's pretty much the opposite of what I want from a game", then maybe Koei games aren't for them.

good to know, maybe I'll try ROTK when I'm feeling masochistic. I've never had anything but frustration from koei games.. I want to like them but when I turn them on I am lost

[Tanooki]

That's my problem, which is why until I found this one I decided to give it a shot due to the subject matter. I've yet to turn it back on having not wanted to or really been able to make the time needed to go at it again. It's just confusing.

[goldenband]

good to know, maybe I'll try ROTK when I'm feeling masochistic. I've never had anything but frustration from koei games.. I want to like them but when I turn them on I am lost

Some of them definitely make me feel that way, but others I've been able to get into. If you want to try ROTK, I'd do the following:

- Play Scenario 3 as Ma Teng, who isn't the most powerful leader but starts the game in relative safety in an easily-protected cul-de-sac (which also means, of course, that you'll have nowhere to run if you get overrun). He also has two of the game's strongest generals in his family; remember that Chinese surnames come first, so everyone named Ma is one of yours.
- In all states, use idle time (especially in winter) to work on increasing land values (Develop) & general and peasant loyalty (Give). No reason not to aim for perfect loyalty.
- Move your strongest generals to the edge of your territory and, when you're ready, expand into unoccupied neighboring territories.
- States that aren't bordered by enemy states can be used to spy on enemy states (View), look for freelance generals (Search), or send small amounts of rice and gold to states in need (Move).
- Avoid attacking other states until you've gotten strong. Be sure any states that border enemy states are well-stocked with rice. The corollary is that if an enemy is extremely low on rice, you're pretty much guaranteed a quick win if you attack.
- Make sure you always have an advisor (intelligence of 90+) in your leader's state -- he'll tell you with 99% reliability whether what you're about to do is a good or bad idea.

As I noted earlier, it's possible to exploit a few different things to become essentially invincible, but it's worth playing the game straight for a while.

[Bronty-2]

Some of them definitely make me feel that way, but others I've been able to get into. If you want to try ROTK, I'd do the following:

- Play Scenario 3 as Ma Teng, who isn't the most powerful leader but starts the game in relative safety in an easily-protected cul-de-sac (which also means, of course, that you'll have nowhere to run if you get overrun). He also has two of the game's strongest generals in his family; remember that Chinese surnames come first, so everyone named Ma is one of yours.
- In all states, use idle time (especially in winter) to work on increasing land values (Develop) & general and peasant loyalty (Give). No reason not to aim for perfect loyalty.
- Move your strongest generals to the edge of your territory and, when you're ready, expand into unoccupied neighboring territories.
- States that aren't bordered by enemy states can be used to spy on enemy states (View), look for freelance generals (Search), or send small amounts of rice and gold to states in need (Move).
- Avoid attacking other states until you've gotten strong. Be sure any states that border enemy states are well-stocked with rice. The corollary is that if an enemy is extremely low on rice, you're pretty much guaranteed a quick win if you attack.
- Make sure you always have an advisor (intelligence of 90+) in your leader's state -- he'll tell you with 99% reliability whether what you're about to do is a good or bad idea.

As I noted earlier, it's possible to exploit a few different things to become essentially invincible, but it's worth playing the game straight for a while.
thanks

[goldenband]

Partly inspired by this thread, I played some Gemfire today on the Genesis. So far it's pretty easy to get into.

[goldenband]

...and beat Gemfire. It's really very easy (much too easy, in fact), and would absolutely make a good choice for someone looking to get into Koei titles. It's basically like a junior version of ROTK or Genghis Khan.

[Terminusvitae]

I've greatly enjoyed all the ROTK games I've played, but my favorites are the ones in which you play as an individual officer (7, 8, and 10) instead of an eye-in-the-sky controlling a force. You can still be a force's sovereign and do all those sorts of things, of course, but you'll actually BE, say, Sun Jian instead of the entire force.

[Daria]

I grew up with Genghis Khan in my NES library, so I get how to play that one. But I've come to the conclusion over the years that most KOEI games just aren't for me. Controls are obtuse and making any real progress takes forever. I do like some of their lighter games tho, like Uncharted Waters, Inindo, and Gemfire.

[Tanooki]

Hah I keep seeing similar words over time about Koei stuff -- slow, feels like lack of progress, obtuse(very oftenly used.) I'm still fence sitting on adding Liberty or Death to my library or just peddling off to get my money back. I want to do it as it's about the revolution, but it confuses me so much even after reading the book it still makes no sense.

[Edmond Dantes]

To be honest, "progress takes forever" is gonna be true for pretty much any sim/strategy game that isn't Risk. Even Civilization and Sim City require days of dedication if you intend to do more than just muff about.

[Tanooki]

Ehh...the original CIV and Sim City weren't exactly all that deep and played on easy it wasn't hard to just jump in and play as there weren't all the vague numbers and menus to do stuff with. It was pretty straight forward how almost all of it was handled, even CIV5 kind of came back around that way too from what I have played of that.

[Daria]

To be honest, "progress takes forever" is gonna be true for pretty much any sim/strategy game that isn't Risk. Even Civilization and Sim City require days of dedication if you intend to do more than just muff about.

Funny, I tend to play both those titles in a single sitting. Then again maybe I just like muffing about.

[goldenband]

I grew up with Genghis Khan in my NES library, so I get how to play that one.

It wouldn't surprise me if that's a pattern with most people -- we feel comfortable with the Koei games we grew up with (if any), and can't get the same comfort level with the ones we've only met as adults.

That said, it's true that pretty much all strategy games have a learning curve, and older ones tend to be especially steep. There are plenty of non-Koei games with the same issue, like Shingen the Ruler, the Daisenryaku series, countless Famicom and Super Famicom games that haven't been translated, etc.

[Tanooki]

The more I read this the more I wonder if I should just sell it to someone who knows how to play or is a CIB collector.

[Daria]

The more I read this the more I wonder if I should just sell it to someone who knows how to play or is a CIB collector.

That was pretty much the conclusion I came to when I sold my Romance of the Three Kingdoms 3. CIB was nice but I knew I was never going to play it.

[goldenband]

I also think a lot of these games fare better when played with another person (or several people). Back in the early 1990s one of my friends stayed home from school for a week playing ROTK with his brother.

That's a very different paradigm from RPGs, which are almost always solitary experiences.

[Daria]

I also think a lot of these games fare better when played with another person (or several people). Back in the early 1990s one of my friends stayed home from school for a week playing ROTK with his brother.

That's a very different paradigm from RPGs, which are almost always solitary experiences.

Come to think of it I did play Genghis Khan with my brother. You might be onto something there.

[Edmond Dantes]

I can almost see that. Koei's games suddenly become interesting when they're played with people. One day I would love to get a game together with eight others of the orignal NES Romance of the Three Kingdoms, have a good all-day-long campaign, and record every moment, just to see how it goes.

[Edmond Dantes]

By the way, apparently Lazy Game Reviews covered the PC version (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfPEDCYZ7Hk&index=5&list=PLbBZM9aUMsjF6-OXZikdTZL9F5OiYsXW0) of Liberty or Death.