Anyone play classic systems with an EDTV (extended definition)

[BetaWolf]

http://zonhunt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Sylvania-LC200SL8-20-Inch-LCD-EDTV-with-Built-In-Tuner-0.jpg

These are early consumer LCD (and sometimes CRT) screens that are capable of up to 480p, and a lot of them have comb filters in them. I've been looking for something to replace my failing Sony CRT TV, which lacks S-video for some reason. I saw a $50, 20 inch Sylvania at a pawn shop resembling the one pictured.

Does anyone have any experience with these? I'm wondering whether they have the same problems HDTVs do with classic systems, like lag and shoddy deinterlacing.

[celerystalker]

I have one that does 480p through early component. It works like and sdtv with crisp picture and no lag. Good stuff. Mine is a JVC.

[Niku-Sama]

From my experience crt edtv's were better. The response time and back lighting on those early lcd's were pretty crap

[celerystalker]

Yes, I should clarify mine is a crt.

[RP2A03]

I never used one, but I should point out that light guns won't work and you will not have scanlines.

[celerystalker]

Light guns do in fact work on my crt.

[RP2A03]

Light guns do in fact work on my crt.

Fascinating. I assume you mean guns other than Guncon 2. If so it would be greatly appreciated if you could give me the model number of the TV and the light guns that you have personally tested and are 100% positive work so that I might add it to my list. http://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?172448-Flat-Tube-Light-Gun-Support-List

[celerystalker]

Sure. I'll try to find some time this week to try out more. Pretty sure it was the Sega Saturn Stunners I tested, but I'll verify and try some Dreamcast, NES, PS1, and SMS when I can.

[BetaWolf]

I picked up that EDTV today, which was an Emerson (I was mistaken), and I'm mixed on it. It does have scanlines. Things look jittery in 480i like they do on a CRT TV. I did not perceive any input lag whatsoever. However, the default picture settings are awful. Colors are oversaturated, and white has an overpowering bloom effect, bleeding into whatever is next to it. I did manage to adjust the Color setting so that it colors look like they do on a CRT. I'll see if I can do anything about the white bleeding tomorrow - if I can fix that, then I will be very satisfied with this as it is very good otherwise.

[RP2A03]

Sure. I'll try to find some time this week to try out more. Pretty sure it was the Sega Saturn Stunners I tested, but I'll verify and try some Dreamcast, NES, PS1, and SMS when I can.

Thank you.



I picked up that EDTV today, which was an Emerson (I was mistaken), and I'm mixed on it. It does have scanlines. Things look jittery in 480i like they do on a CRT TV. I did not perceive any input lag whatsoever. However, the default picture settings are awful. Colors are oversaturated, and white has an overpowering bloom effect, bleeding into whatever is next to it. I did manage to adjust the Color setting so that it colors look like they do on a CRT. I'll see if I can do anything about the white bleeding tomorrow - if I can fix that, then I will be very satisfied with this as it is very good otherwise.

Blooming can be reduced by turning down contrast (sometimes called white level). It might also be worth adjusting the focus pot(s) on the flyback; just be careful as there are lethal voltages present, sometimes in places you might not expect.

Also, I don't mean to be that weird guy that asks everyone the model number of their TV, but it would be great if you could produce it. Oh, and light guns too, if you have them.:-P

[BetaWolf]

Thank you.
Blooming can be reduced by turning down contrast (sometimes called white level). It might also be worth adjusting the focus pot(s) on the flyback; just be careful as there are lethal voltages present, sometimes in places you might not expect.

Also, I don't mean to be that weird guy that asks everyone the model number of their TV, but it would be great if you could produce it. Oh, and light guns too, if you have them.:-P

No problem. Model is Emerson EWL20S5 C. Any point in trying light guns on an LCD? I own them for NES, SNES, and Saturn only.
I'll adjust the contrast when I can. Thanks.

[RP2A03]

No problem. Model is Emerson EWL20S5 C. Any point in trying light guns on an LCD? I own them for NES, SNES, and Saturn only.
I'll adjust the contrast when I can. Thanks.

No point in testing light guns on an LCD. I actually thought you had a CRT since said you had blooming which has a specific definition that applies only to CRTs. Perhaps you are talking about clipping (e.g. white values 230 - 255 appear the same) which is also correctable by lowering contrast? If you can get some test patterns up on your display it will help you a lot in making adjustments.

[Gameguy]

Sure. I'll try to find some time this week to try out more. Pretty sure it was the Sega Saturn Stunners I tested, but I'll verify and try some Dreamcast, NES, PS1, and SMS when I can.
How are your consoles connected to this CRT? Through the component connections?

[BetaWolf]

No point in testing light guns on an LCD. I actually thought you had a CRT since said you had blooming which has a specific definition that applies only to CRTs. Perhaps you are talking about clipping (e.g. white values 230 - 255 appear the same) which is also correctable by lowering contrast? If you can get some test patterns up on your display it will help you a lot in making adjustments.

I have done that with computer monitors. I'll have to connect my Wii U via component and then find a test pattern online. With meh displays like this though, you can never get the best of both worlds. Either sacrifice some black levels and not be able to see in the dark, or have good black levels and not be able to distinguish between brights (values 230-255). Since I'm playing retro games with bright colors and lots of primaries, I'll settle for the former.

The display is plenty passable, though. Nothing wrong with the audio, and there aren't any dead pixels. Just tried 480p with the Game Boy Player and it ran fine but needs some color adjusting. It just seems like they cut corners and didn't calibrate it properly at the factory. A little fun fact - I found out that Emerson and Sylvania are sister companies under Funai, kind of like Philips and Magnavox (which were also distributed by Funai for some time).

[CRTGAMER]

I have one that does 480p through early component. It works like and sdtv with crisp picture and no lag. Good stuff. Mine is a JVC.

I have yet to see a CRT that is Extended Definition of 480p only. I own both WEGA SD CRT TV (480i) and WEGA HD CRT TV (480i-1080i) . The PS2 Guncon 2 does work in 480p mode for ED CRT TVs, but near as I can figure, the only ED CRT TVs if out there were only produced in Japan?

The HD CRT is the best picture quality compromise since it displays ALL the resolutions directly without need of upscaling.
Most CRTs though having a Component input will only display in 480i, unless it is an HD Tube which can go from 480i-720i-720p-10801. Anyone claiming to own an ED CRT TV can simply confirm by setting your DVD player to Progressive Scan. If it works you very likely own an HD Tube capable of going all the way up to 1080i. Please post the make and model number, really curious if really an ED Tube.

[BetaWolf]

I've never seen a CRT EDTV before either. Didn't know LCD EDTVs existed until I went to visit a friend at college and he had one in his dorm room.

[celerystalker]

The TV I'm using is a JVC I'Art AV-27FA44. It has S-Video, composite, and component inputs. I'm not 100% sure what the resolution is on the thing; we inherited it when my wife's grandma passed away years ago, and the manual just goes on and on about its combing filters for color separation.

8352

[RP2A03]

The HD CRT is the best picture quality compromise since it displays ALL the resolutions directly without need of upscaling.
Most CRTs though having a Component input will only display in 480i, unless it is an HD Tube which can go from 480i-720i-720p-10801.

Unles you are talking about broadcast monitors, that is not correct. All consumer grade TVs are fixed scan and none of them (with the possible exception of that weird 1500i TV from JVC) will display 720p natively.



The TV I'm using is a JVC I'Art AV-27FA44. It has S-Video, composite, and component inputs. I'm not 100% sure what the resolution is on the thing; we inherited it when my wife's grandma passed away years ago, and the manual just goes on and on about its combing filters for color separation.

I'm pretty sure that is SD. If it was ED, it would have an EDTV badge on it and they would be prominently advertising it as a feature. If you try to display an Xbox or a Wii in 480p mode, I would be willing to bet that you will get a rolling picture.

[CRTGAMER]

The HD CRT is the best picture quality compromise since it displays ALL the resolutions directly without need of upscaling.
Most CRTs though having a Component input will only display in 480i, unless it is an HD Tube which can go from 480i-720i-720p-10801. Anyone claiming to own an ED CRT TV can simply confirm by setting your DVD player to Progressive Scan. If it works you very likely own an HD Tube capable of going all the way up to 1080i. Please post the make and model number, really curious if really an ED Tube.Unless you are talking about broadcast monitors, that is not correct. All consumer grade TVs are fixed scan and none of them (with the possible exception of that weird 1500i TV from JVC) will display 720p natively.
Er no. I can watch SD or HD signals on my Sony Trinitron WEGA KV-32HS500 CRT all crystal clear compared to newer flat screens attempting to upscale SD signals. The only thing the HD CRT does not have is SD Tube Scan Lines or Light Gun support. Amazing how clear all the resolutions are on the HD CRT. Newer flat screens display beautiful with an HD signal but fall "flat" whenever a regular SD connection is used.

The newest LED models do get rid of the pixelation but tends to display SD video in a blurry upscaled image. HD CRTs do not upscale, that same SD video is so clear and sharp, every detail can be seen, even if only a 480i signal. HD video on the HD tube really stand out, though newer flat screens do have the edge on the higher resolutions. Right now there are still a lot of video compromise be it dish or cable; many stations still in SD. When ALL signals go to HD, then the LED screen would be the best choice. However, older game consoles even attached to 3rd party upscaler boxes will never look as clear as hooking up to a CRT.

Of note I mentioned also owning a SD WEGA, model number KD-27FS170. The Sony site marketing specifications PDF mention it is a 1080i tube, yet the Component connection is confirmed 480i. When I set the DVD player to Progressive Scan, I get the rolling image, confirming only 480i support. However, this particular TV has a built in HD Tuner, the off the air HD digital broadcasts are so detailed and scan free, the tube appears to display in either 720p or 1080i directly based on the logo readout from the TV station.

[RP2A03]

Er no. I can watch SD or HD signals on my Sony Trinitron WEGA KV-32HS500 CRT all crystal clear compared to newer flat screens attempting to upscale SD signals. The only thing the HD CRT does not have is SD Tube Scan Lines or Light Gun support.

The fact that light guns do not work is proof that the tube is being scanned at a different rate.



The newest LED models do get rid of the pixelation but tends to display SD video in a blurry upscaled image. HD CRTs do not upscale, that same SD video is so clear and sharp, every detail can be seen, even if only a 480i signal. HD video on the HD tube really stand out, though newer flat screens do have the edge on the higher resolutions. Right now there are still a lot of video compromise be it dish or cable; many stations still in SD. When ALL signals go to HD, then the LED screen would be the best choice. However, older game consoles even attached to 3rd party upscaler boxes will never look as clear as hooking up to a CRT.

CRTs produce a softer image than LCDs and Plasmas which would hide some of the scaling artifacts.



Of note I mentioned also owning a SD WEGA, model number KD-27FS170. The Sony site marketing specifications PDF mention it is a 1080i tube, yet the Component connection is confirmed 480i. When I set the DVD player to Progressive Scan, I get the rolling image, confirming only 480i support. However, this particular TV has a built in HD Tuner, the off the air HD digital broadcasts are so detailed and scan free, the tube appears to display in either 720p or 1080i directly based on the logo readout from the TV station.

That is a Hi-Scan model. It displays everything at 1080i; however, it does not accept an HD signal over component.

[BetaWolf]

I'm pretty sure that is SD. If it was ED, it would have an EDTV badge on it and they would be prominently advertising it as a feature.
Not necessarily true. My Emerson LCD EDTV can do 480p. It doesn't mention EDTV anywhere on the set. I think it's just a small mention in the manual. My rule of thumb, which will have exceptions, is "if it is a 4:3 LCD with component input, it is an EDTV."

Emerson EWL20S5 if you want to look it up.

[RP2A03]

Not necessarily true. My Emerson LCD EDTV can do 480p. It doesn't mention EDTV anywhere on the set. I think it's just a small mention in the manual. My rule of thumb, which will have exceptions, is "if it is a 4:3 LCD with component input, it is an EDTV."

Emerson EWL20S5 if you want to look it up.

Marketing fail.

[Gamevet]

That is a Hi-Scan model. It displays everything at 1080i; however, it does not accept an HD signal over component.

I have a 4:3 Sony Hi-Scan (KV-32HS420) CRT. It shows a letterbox display when doing content in 720p/1080i over component/HDMI. You can actually hear the gun whine when it is doing 720p/1080i, because of the increased scan lines.

Light guns don't work my HD CRT, that's for sure.

[RP2A03]

I have a 4:3 Sony Hi-Scan (KV-32HS420) CRT. It shows a letterbox display when doing content in 720p/1080i over component/HDMI.

I was referring specifically to his model which does not accept HD over component.



You can actually hear the gun whine when it is doing 720p/1080i, because of the increased scan lines.

Light guns don't work my HD CRT, that's for sure.

Interesting about the whine. The fact that light guns don't work means that it's not displaying 480i natively, and if the GunCon2 doesn't work it is not displaying 480p natively either. I suspect your whine is not coming from the yoke, but rather from the flyback or the power supply. Bad capacitors can also squeal. Is this whine different when a bright picture is displayed vs a dark one?

[Gamevet]

I was referring specifically to his model which does not accept HD over component.




Interesting about the whine. The fact that light guns don't work means that it's not displaying 480i natively, and if the GunCon2 doesn't work it is not displaying 480p natively either. I suspect your whine is not coming from the yoke, but rather from the flyback or the power supply. Bad capacitors can also squeal. Is this whine different when a bright picture is displayed vs a dark one?

The whine is from the gun. All CRTs have that whine, if you listen with the volume down. I'm pretty sure that the gun frequency increases when displaying 720p and 1080i. I have 2 of these sets.

I don't know about the GunCon2 with this set. I've only tried it with the Sega Stunners and a couple of light guns with the Dreamcast. I'm pretty sure that it does line doubling, instead of true interlace.

[RP2A03]

The whine is from the gun. All CRTs have that whine, if you listen with the volume down. I'm pretty sure that the gun frequency increases when displaying 720p and 1080i. I have 2 of these sets.

Guns do not whine, deflection coils (which is what makes the beams scan) whine. Furthermore, unless something is vibrating at a resonant harmonic (which can happen) the whine should be inaudible at the scan frequencies for 720p (45 kHz) and 1080i (33.75 kHz). 480i scans horizontally at 15.73 kHz which is in the range of human hearing and is often why you hear many SD TVs squealing. All CRTs do not produce an audible whine. My XS955 doesn't whine and neither did my old Dell PC monitor. I have a DiamondPoint SB70 that whines only at a specific range of scanning frequencies (somewhere around 48 kHz, must be producing a resonant harmonic) and only when cold; and a Diamond Pro 2070SB that I am currently using has developed an intermittent whine when it is hot that is affected by screen brightness (probably due to having two bulging capacitors on the main board).



I'm pretty sure that it does line doubling, instead of true interlace.

Or frame doubling depending on your settings. From there the image is either scaled to 540p/1080i or drawn in a 540p/1080i raster that is adjusted so the unused lines are in the overscan area. I can't seem to find a definitive answer on this.

[Gamevet]

Guns do not whine, deflection coils (which is what makes the beams scan) whine. Furthermore, unless something is vibrating at a resonant harmonic (which can happen) the whine should be inaudible at the scan frequencies for 720p (45 kHz) and 1080i (33.75 kHz). 480i scans horizontally at 15.73 kHz which is in the range of human hearing and is often why you hear many SD TVs squealing. All CRTs do not produce an audible whine. My XS955 doesn't whine and neither did my old Dell PC monitor. I have a DiamondPoint SB70 that whines only at a specific range of scanning frequencies (somewhere around 48 kHz, must be producing a resonant harmonic) and only when cold; and a Diamond Pro 2070SB that I am currently using has developed an intermittent whine when it is hot that is affected by screen brightness (probably due to having two bulging capacitors on the main board).

The deflector coils are part of the gun.

(*Edit) I stand corrected. My electronics courses back in the 80's included the deflector coils as part of the gun, but they aren't really. I was referring to the deflector coils though, as you had said.

I describe the sound as whining, while it may be more of a humming noise. All I know is that I heard a change in pitch noise when I changed the settings of a PS3 from 480p to 1080i.





Or frame doubling depending on your settings. From there the image is either scaled to 540p/1080i or drawn in a 540p/1080i raster that is adjusted so the unused lines are in the overscan area. I can't seem to find a definitive answer on this.

I could never find a definitive answer on the 480i mode for this television. I do know that the image does not appear to be cut off, compared to the 27" Sony Wega SD set I have sitting right next to it. 720p/1080i content (16:9) has the left and right edges slightly cut off though.

What you are describing sounds more like for a widescreen television. This CRT is best suited for 480p content (Gamecube and Xbox look fantastic in 480p) and does its scaling with widescreen 720p/1080i images.

[RP2A03]

I describe the sound as whining, while it may be more of a humming noise. All I know is that I heard a change in pitch noise when I changed the settings of a PS3 from 480p to 1080i.

Is a like a low pitch buzz? You could be hearing the vertical deflection. Odd how it changes pitch though.

Of note, is that I just found out that I can measure the frequency of the deflection coils and the flyback by placing my multimeter probe in close proximity. Tested this on a multiscan PC monitor to see if this works and got the expected results. I then tested my XS955 and got 33.7 kHz with all resolutions and DRC settings. Unfortunately I didn't think to pay attention to the vertical scan rate.





I could never find a definitive answer on the 480i mode for this television. I do know that the image does not appear to be cut off, compared to the 27" Sony Wega SD set I have sitting right next to it. 720p/1080i content (16:9) has the left and right edges slightly cut off though.

What you are describing sounds more like for a widescreen television. This CRT is best suited for 480p content (Gamecube and Xbox look fantastic in 480p) and does its scaling with widescreen 720p/1080i images.

Your set also has DRC which can't be turned off (at least on mine). From the marketing specs PDF https://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-home.pl?mdl=KV32HS420&template_id=1&region_id=1&tab=manuals#/manualsTab :

"DRC™ Digital Reality Creation™ Multi-function analyzes a 480i NTSC image and creates a digital bit mapped pattern in real time. The original NTSC signal is mapped in real time, replaced with an HD representative, and then discarded. Because DRC™ processes video signals in real time, it creates an image with 4X the density of the original signal. Resolution is increased both vertically and horizontally."

The question is what does it do with the resulting 480p/960i image. The scan frequencies (horizontal and vertical) will at least tell us if it is displaying it natively.



EDIT: I know that you, Gamevet, probably know this, but for the benefit of others who are not familiar with CRTs; dangerous voltages in excess of 25,000 volts are present and touching the wrong thing can seriously injure you even if it is powered off and unplugged.

[Gamevet]

Is a like a low pitch buzz? You could be hearing the vertical deflection. Odd how it changes pitch though.

I'd noticed that the current set I have in my office does not have that high pitch while running in 720p. I started thinking about the other set that I had in my office, and I'm thinking that increase in pitch may have come from a failing power supply inside of that television. I had to take that set in for repairs back @ 2006-07 to get the PSU and board replaced. The technicians could not pinpoint why the television was shutting down when I ran 720p/1080i, but that does tell me that there was more power demand from the gun and deflectors while running in the higher resolution.








Your set also has DRC which can't be turned off (at least on mine). From the marketing specs PDF https://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-home.pl?mdl=KV32HS420&template_id=1&region_id=1&tab=manuals#/manualsTab :

"DRC™ Digital Reality Creation™ Multi-function analyzes a 480i NTSC image and creates a digital bit mapped pattern in real time. The original NTSC signal is mapped in real time, replaced with an HD representative, and then discarded. Because DRC™ processes video signals in real time, it creates an image with 4X the density of the original signal. Resolution is increased both vertically and horizontally."

The question is what does it do with the resulting 480p/960i image. The scan frequencies (horizontal and vertical) will at least tell us if it is displaying it natively.

I certainly don't want to crack open my television to test. I don't have an oscilloscope.

I do know that the television displays 480p perfectly, and even interlaced content that I know is being displayed in 640 x 480 (Dreamcast looks better in S-Video on this set than VGA on an LCD), shows no signs of pixel line fill. It's when I'm running Genesis, NES and SNES games, that I can see the line double effect, but it still looks pretty good.




EDIT: I know that you, Gamevet, probably know this, but for the benefit of others who are not familiar with CRTs; dangerous voltages in excess of 25,000 volts are present and touching the wrong thing can seriously injure you even if it is powered off and unplugged.

I watched my instructor discharge a tube. It released a large bluish arc to ground. It was quite a site to see.

I never really used my degree to do full-on electronics repairs, but it does come in handy for trouble-shooting stuff while in the field for my current job. I somehow ended up in the information technologies field instead.

[RP2A03]

I certainly don't want to crack open my television to test. I don't have an oscilloscope.

I don't have an oscilloscope either. The deflection coils and the flyback put out a strong enough electromagnetic field that you can measure the frequency with a digital multimeter that has a frequency setting. The EM field coming off the flyback is so strong that I can measure it without taking the back off my TVs and even with no probes connected to the meter.

[BlastProcessing402]

I've never used an EDTV, but my grandparents have one sitting in their closet I plan to someday set up for my old school systems if I ever get around to going over there and dragging it home.

I will say my N64 looks a lot better on my HD CRT Wega than it does on my HD LCD Samsung. I can't even stand to look at it on the Sammy, on the Wega it looks as good if not better than it did on my old SD CRT. SD stuff in general just looks great on the Wega, not as good as actual HD, but good enough that before I got an HD cable box, my dad was looking at some show on it, and remarked about it being a nice HD picture. Just too bad it doesn't support 1080p, damn companies stopped making CRT before that was a thing.