Nov 3 - I got a Genesis, now about those games? (was the CDX was it worth it thread)

[Tanooki]

I may have an opportunity to get one of these things within the next week, kind of unsure about the whole thing. I for some reason recall them having some kind of issue with age or whatever I think with the CD part of it. I can't think of too many discs worth it that don't get $50+ sadly on ebay, so it would mostly be useful for the Sega Genesis slot which kind of goes as a negative against it I guess.

What do I need to know about this if I dare to take an interest in it?

[calgon]

Sound on the Genesis isn't as good as a model one HD graphics ver.

If you can get by that, they are fantastic

[Cornelius]

If all you care about is playing the games, and you have the means to do so already, then there isn't any real benefit. But it is just a flippin' sweet console. Probably my favorite redesign of any system, so sleek. Also, it saves a ton of space, being like 1/4 the size of a Sega CD.

I don't recall hearing about any specific age-related problems that they all get sooner or later. But when there are problems, I understand it to be one of the worst to work on. I've luckily not had any problems with mine, but given everything that's crammed in there, it makes sense that it would be a pain to open up.

[Niku-Sama]

I remember age specific problems bring the caps for the audio. That's already been mentioned...

Model 1 still blows it away.

I could see it as a good investment, or trade bait if you get a good price on it. I found an ac adapter for one a few months back and that's all I've seen of one in the wild. Kinda like the nes-101s in my area

[SparTonberry]

Yeah, I hear getting a proper AC adapter for one (as well as X'Eye, the other rare Genesis variant) is pretty difficult.

[Tanooki]

Well that's interesting. And no I'm not all uppity about the audio. The only Genesis systems I've personally owned was the ratty #3 and also the Nomad, beyond that, Firecore ATGames goodies(or not so goodies depending how much they piss you off.) I've never had access to a SCD system. I know there's probably only a dozen games on it I'd even bother with and some of them are damn expensive like $50-100 (some nauseatingly like Snatcher.)

I've never seen one at a store since they were sold at the store. Even the dude I was friends with years back in CA I've mentioned before gone evil and greedy where I got all my awesome expensive 2nd hand NES/SNES goodies in the 90s from never had one and he had some weird stuff.

I've been thinking for a time now I'd want a Genesis again as I lost mine to unemployment a decade ago -- Castlevania, Star control, Dune 2, Contra, Ghouls n Ghosts, Ristar, the Sonics, Alisa Dragoon, Aladdin, Virtua Racing, SF2(some variant) as well as MK1, and a few others -- always wanted a crack at Lunar, Lords of Thunder, Final Fight CD and a few others. I could see snapping up a couple dozen Gen games either complete or loose but i'd be uniform how I'd approach that once I started as I'm sure loose boxes/books are a pain.


As much as it is, I'm not sure where the price will fall but somewhere in the $100-160 range. I know they're $200-225~ish in the condition it is in. It has the original A/V (model 2 genesis looking) video cable, original power supply, system is solid itself, and has 1 6 button controller that either came with it or the old owner bought (sega brand.) Now I know you probably could get a model 1 or 2 genesis and the docked to it sega cd (under or side by side) probably for like $100, but this seems like a better idea to shoot for. For once money isn't really an object as I sold this oddball bootleg cart an online friend of mine wanted last week for a good bit of money so I could get it, I'm just wondering if it's really worth it or not with the CD aspect when a nice genesis alone I think is like what $50? (for the HD inked model 1 type with the nicer audio people go for.)

[sfchakan]

If all you care about is playing the games, and you have the means to do so already, then there isn't any real benefit. But it is just a flippin' sweet console. Probably my favorite redesign of any system, so sleek.

This is the correct answer.

[theclaw]

CDX is incredible when it works. Good luck with repairs.

Unlike most clones, RGB is an option.
One difference from Genesis 2 is the bulky old Power Base Converter barely fits unmodified. (right angle power plug recommended)
Too bad 32X wobbles. Sega canceled its spacer.

[Tanooki]

Repairs are a concern but so is the fact of like 20 interesting to me games more than half cost like 50-130 to buy which isn't cool at all. SCD is expensive for quality since it was lower run and lived a short life. Thinking I may just wait and see if I could get it for 100-120 or leave it be. Carts are what I had and loose but pretty is all I'd need and the worst of those would be the likes of castlevania and tmnt. If I did get it that cheap there are a few discs lower priced I'd meddle with at least.

[Steve W]

I've come across a couple CDX units at flea markets over the years, but the CD drive was always broken. I've always kept my eye out for one fairly cheap whenever I go game hunting. But I have both Model 1 and 2 CD-ROM units, so I don't especially need a CDX, it'd just be nice to have. I did find the power supply for it years back, I'm hoping that will help steer luck my way and I'll come across a working CDX eventually. Kind of like how I owned a Channel F game before eventually getting the console, or buying a Laseractive game a week before buying the console and discovering the store got rid of all their Laseractive games the day after I bought my lone game for the next few years.

[Tanooki]

Good story and I get that. I am kind of wondering where I'll go with this if at all, price 100% would determine it.

I'm also eyeballing the model 1 genesis (HD branding) since it supposedly has that nicest (correct) audio and good visual capabilities, but not easy to sift through the crap on ebay to do so to find a fair value for one in good shape that isn't beat up with a controller and original a/v + power cable for it (don't care for or want rf.) Clearly more time is needed to investigate.

[Niku-Sama]

heka deal right here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Sega-Genesis-CD-Model-1690-16-Bit-Console-w-Cords-1-Game-1-Controllers-/161874556635?hash=item25b079b6db:g:5IYAAOSwA4dWNCJ y

its actually a very early unit with the 2 color logo (white/grey), probably a non tmss unit too. matching controller, model 1 cd unit.
shipping kind of sucks but if your looking for the best sounding, looking this is, from my experience, one of the better options

i'd say $100 is worth it especially with the slot load sega CD but the shipping is kinda killer on it. plus with this you'd be able to use the power base converter and 32x no problems. frankly I think the CDX would be cool but you know your gonna want to do cd/32x games and probably master system games in the future.

[Tanooki]

Not bad, but the $30 shipping is kind of a joke. I guess it's either larger than I remember or this guy isn't using a cheaper priority mail option. Wouldn't a slot loading CD drive be more of a burden given you have yet another motor and belt to fail if that front gave out vs a basically no parts tray you just pop up?

I don't know really much at all what a CD unit values at though I'll be that clear. I know a good clean quality HD style Genesis that has the complete accessory package appears to be $50 on average looking at junk earlier today on ebay. You could accident into a lucky thing that's missed or piece it together cheaper, but not by much and the hassle would negate the savings. 32X I have to admit as limited as the game list is I find more interesting than the CD at least playing the averages of how many games it has total are more interesting, prices I don't think blow as badly either.

Now why does that dude have 2 AC adapters though? Also he said he could hear the thing read a disc but nothing ran, yet he had the audio player up. Isn't that a potential problem if it reads and may not even handle an audio disc and it being listed as-is?

The CDX I read from multiple accounts works just fine with the 32X too, the manual just claims it doesn't support it is all (probably since those clips don't fit it well.)

[FieryReign]

https://youtube.com/watch?list=PLMqQ90WyAwyok5HxkeEGcKsFJWemdyIXt&v=09AwYoXyLk8
Bracie did an overview of one a long time ago. Looks like nothing but a collectors piece to me. If you're running a museum, it might be worth it. Playing games on it? Why bother? Cheaper options out there like a modded Model 1.

Nothing on Sega CD worth those prices. You have your SonicCDs which are available elsewhere nowadays(and overrated as fuck). Terminator is cool, mostly due to Tommy Ts rockin-ass soundtrack. Ummm, I guess if you're into rpgs, there's all the Working Designs stuff, but I consider them borefests. Snatcher bored me to tears personally, but if you like those type games...

Sega CD was nothing but a faulty piece of shit.

[Tanooki]

Well I kind of agree with your feelings, and since posting that last comment where I threw the 32x out there, I had a feeling it blew and wasn't just quit upon by sega so I did a title search followed by youtube - ugh. Not worth the price for the addon and 2 power supplies...hell no.

The issue with the SegaCD is that there are some good games, and yes I did like Lunar on PS1 the little I played and the GBA release too, so I'd get that along with Silpheed from Working Designs too. The issue is that the most desirable games to me, a good many cost around $100-130, a few around the $50 mark which I am not amused with.

I think the model 1 would be best, but I need to sniff out a good deal on that, but I won't lie, if I happen to see that cdx for a $100 at the end of the week I'll grab it. I may not get much CDs if any for it, but it's a Genesis, and at absolute worst I end up depressed by the CD prices and sell it and make a few bucks. The other thing I have t consider, do I want to even bother with stupid clamshells at this point or just save even more and get loose carts that aren't with jacked up labels for the Genesis stuff. The sad truth of it is modern games off the pc/android stuff and some 3DS games rarely appeal to me, I get maybe in average 3-4yr on the PS4 as the old stuff is just more amusing and relaxing/fun for me due to the larger emphasis on core gaming mechanics over fluff, flair, and slowly moving along trivial stories to fill time to try and justify a $60 price tag. NES/SNES stuff is just sickening to buy at this rate for the upper quality stuff anymore short of some oddball unsought good games, yet the Genesis gets fairly maligned and ignored (SCD oddly aside) so it's a good fit for value vs gaming value.

Also reading I noticed that the very first release model/part # was slighty different in that it has a 46E in the code on the bottom instead of FJ8USA... and this one has no lock out chip too or boot license screen.

I do have another question. I had the Genesis 3 ages ago, I get it's not a fan favorite and can't use the addon devices (no big deal) but did it really have the god awful audio that the model 2 had where it just totally hoses up Sonic 3's audio? I honestly don't remember sounding bad, definitely not like hte side by side video on youtube makes it out to be with the model 1 vs model 2.

[FieryReign]

Gen3? Godawful Majesco trash. Had one of those tiny things and the sound almost made my ears bleed. I actually thought it was a bootleg cloney-cheapy, until I did research and seen Sega did put their name on that manure. I don't think they're compatible with Sonic and Knuckles or Virtua Racing, among others if that bothers you.

[Tanooki]

Ok, if you were dead set on buying a model 1, with the proper FCC code I noted that has the best audio and the solid video, IE the very first model off the line, and it were in damn good shape not all scratched up as those black matte plastic systems did -- what would be an acceptable price to you?

I've so far gone through 17 pagex x50 listings and as far as I can tell I've found 2, and only one looks like it was used with satin gloves and the other, perhaps sandpaper or just kicked around.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sega-Genesis-Video-Game-System-Complete-Altered-Beast-Game-1601-Console-/201443133834?hash=item2ee6f2498a:g:SQUAAOSwQTVWCIp 2

$50 +17 shipping... system, ac, rf all sega stock, 2 stock 3 button controllers, and altered beast game+box w/art on it no manual. I looked up a 3 button controller in that good of shape is 10-12 shipped, Altered Beast another 5-7, it brings the system down to $50 shipped.

Is that even fair or high in part due to the shipping which seems like a bit much coming from not that far away really.

[FieryReign]

That looks like a nice clean system for the price. But, you don't know how the controllers "feel", those old school 3-buttons tend to get "mushy" and get dirty over time. I managed to open one up in the past due to a faulty A button and discovered how much filth can get inside those things. A little alcohol and cleaning made the A button useful again but ultimately failed again and I know jack shit about technology so I just threw it against the wall, raining plastic.

The Model 1 itself? Probably one of the most durable consoles out there. I've seen em come through hell and back. Six-button feels so nice in the hands, one of the best ever, especially that smoothass rubber d-pad.

$17 shipping? That's not bad at all, really. Pretty sure there is no Priority Box that would fit all that. If there was one, where would you put padding? We've gotten a little too spoiled in regards to shipping nowadays.

[Tanooki]

Well as far as controllers go the best you can hope for is to clean both the rubber tops and bottoms, and where they contact with the board with high proof isopropyl alcohol and hope for the best, otherwise, find replacement rubbers or controllers. I really don't recall what an old Genesis weighs (been 10+years) so I had no idea if that was good or not. $50 for a non TMSS genesis seems to be pretty damn good when you factor in the added controller and game.

I don't remember well, but other than Street Fighter II I don't think too many games used a 6 button controller anyway, and I already have that on SNES.

Perhaps just buy it and be done with it, as trying to find one as pretty as that is probably waiting for disaster or really dumb luck.

[FieryReign]

Not many games used the six-button besides fighters like Eternal Champions, Ranger-X, Streets of Rage 3, Comix Zone, among many others. You'd be surprised. They're just a better feeling controller in your hand, 10 times better than that bulky 3-button nonsense. If you've never held one in your hands than it's hard to explain. It's literally THE best d-pad ever.

[Tanooki]

I've used them both equally but again been so long I really don't remember preferring one. I just kind of left whatever was in there at the time since I did have SF2CE back then. I had this long distance gf of sorts out of the country and she needed a US Gamecube back in 01 so she had this order through the US of a US Genesis (2 of them) and a big box of games -- for me to ship the new GC down there I got to keep the 20~ games and the system so that's what got me started on it back in the day.

[RP2A03]

There is actually a three button controller variant that is supposed to have a good D-pad.

http://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?134951-Sega-Genesis-3-button-controller-dpads

[Tanooki]

Well that's interesting. I imagine if I were to guess given the time frame the 6 button I had was probably the one they're thinking sucks. I was ok with it, never felt it had the responsive tightness of the NIntendo d-pad, but it wasn't a problem either, and I imagine it's probably to a degree mentally ingrained preference. Shame the pictures don't exist anymore.

[BetaWolf]

The dpad on the 6-button controller, Saturn controller, and improved 3-button controller is one of the best dpads ever made. I can perform stuff flawlessly on Street Fighter 2 with it. Shame they didn't keep that for the Dreamcast.

<EDIT> If you need pictures, check out the Sega Retro wiki: http://segaretro.org/Control_Pad_(Mega_Drive)#Variations
The topright most picture under Variations is the improved design. Note the large space in between the dpad and the controller plastic.

[FieryReign]

Well that's interesting. I imagine if I were to guess given the time frame the 6 button I had was probably the one they're thinking sucks. I was ok with it, never felt it had the responsive tightness of the NIntendo d-pad, but it wasn't a problem either, and I imagine it's probably to a degree mentally ingrained preference. Shame the pictures don't exist anymore.
The blue start button variant is garbage, not even Sega Official. I was referring to the original rubber smooth orig.

[Tanooki]

Hmm well then that solves that, the auction I was looking at has the original first version controllers with that original release system, kind of makes sense I guess.

[FieryReign]

Hmm well then that solves that, the auction I was looking at has the original first version controllers with that original release system, kind of makes sense I guess.

I meant that there are 2 different 6-button variants. The original Sega produced white-button and a later crappy blue-start button variant with a shittier harder d-pad and other cosmetic changes. Those suck. They say Sega on them but they're not the original. Never knew they put them rubber dpads on 3-buttons, consider yourself lucky if that's what they are.

[SparTonberry]

The CDX I read from multiple accounts works just fine with the 32X too, the manual just claims it doesn't support it is all (probably since those clips don't fit it well.)
From what I read Sega didn't get the CDX+32X combination FCC-approved so they had to legally claim it unsupported.

[Niku-Sama]

That auction you linked wasn't a launch system

[theclaw]

I meant that there are 2 different 6-button variants. The original Sega produced white-button and a later crappy blue-start button variant with a shittier harder d-pad and other cosmetic changes. Those suck. They say Sega on them but they're not the original. Never knew they put them rubber dpads on 3-buttons, consider yourself lucky if that's what they are.

The "Sega Club" 6-button is not identical to the Japanese version? Most people seem to think it is.
I'll admit I haven't really looked, but I can't say I've seen an in-depth comparison.

[Tanooki]

That auction you linked wasn't a launch system

The one with the altered beast one is the correct audio non TMSS release. I've gone through multiple sites so far and all of them say that the FCC code has the added 46E on the bottom of it. It's a non-TMSS system with no lockout and the good audio package people prefer.

I referenced this for it -- http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?7796-GUIDE-Telling-apart-good-Genesis-1s-and-Genesis-2s-from-bad-ones
and this - http://www.gametrog.com/GAMETROG/SEGA_Genesis_1_2_3_Information_Specs.html

[Steve W]

The issue is that the most desirable games to me, a good many cost around $100-130, a few around the $50 mark which I am not amused with.

Which games are you interested in? Are you just wanting RPGs, or are there others you're looking for?

[Tanooki]

The RPGs were interesting, but so were other things too like Lords of Thunder which is well up there. I don't have a list in front of me. The CDX sold anyway.

I went ahead instead and bought a non-TMSS model 1 system with the good audio core. It came with Altered Beast. IN advance of that I've been doing a few things, first I went to both half price books today and for so few dollars (nothing was over $4.50) I grabbed the Genesis 6-Pak, Disney's Aladdin, Mean Bean Machine, Sonic 2, and Sonic Spinball. I put an offer on a TMNT cart on ebay too and it was accepted and have one down on Dune 2 which I used to own and want again.

I also made this huge ass list of potential games to get, I'm serious about a library of fun to grow at a decent non-speedy pace so I'm not overwhelmed but I do want a good bit of stuff I hadn't had before. Most of that list is fresh, but maybe 10-20% of it I had once (like the Konami games, Star Control, Virtua Racing, Ghouls N Ghosts.) I never did have that turtles game.

This is what I worked up so far...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KrD91QsL_PkP5STQYzcRzoqY19z35vodgt_c-p9nNHs/edit?usp=sharing

It's kind of long, anything decent I'm missing? I know I don't have the various 1on1 fighters, SNES ported stuff like Sunset Riders and Zombies Ate My Neighbors aren't either, and yes i'm aware Gunstar Heroes isn't (never was a huge fan of it, I know, amazing.)

I'm also looking to just go cartridge only, don't need the overhead and saves space, but I will be fairly label picky about wear. A few little teeny pen top nicks are fine, white rub fold edge and the usual worse stuff no.

[theclaw]

Burning Force, fun shooter with distinctive music.

Sports are a cheap multiplayer option. Tecmo Super Bowl and EA's NHL games have their fans.

[FieryReign]

Dick Tracy. I dig alot of the pre-Sonic era stuff. The games had a charm and feel to them that felt fresh.

Atomic Runner is a quirky little run-n-gun autoscroller. Loved Data East back in those days.

[celerystalker]

Here are a few I like:

Shooters not called MUSHA
Phelios
Grind Stormer
Steel Empire
Hellfire
Elemental Master
Fire Shark
Forgotten Worlds
Sol-Deace
Granada
Truxton
Trouble Shooter
Sagaia
Bio Hazard Battle
Insector X

Action/Platformers
Mystic Defender
El Viento
Contra: Hard Corps
Saint Sword
Ranger X
Marvel Land

Action RPG
King of Colosseum
Beyond Oasis
Exile

Others
Alien Storm
Gain Ground
Crack Down
Humans
Bonanza Bros
Shadowrun
Shining Force
Shining Force II
Toejam & Earl
Starflight
Sorcerer's Kingdom

Also, if you do the 32X, Space Harrier rules. Also, like Neo Geo games, most 32X games will boot up in the native region of the console, and in that language. For instance, if I put my Japanese Cyber Brawl into my US system, it boots in English as Cosmic Carnage.

[Edmond Dantes]

The Sega Genesis is awesome and has never had a bad game, ever. No, not even Bubsy.

(Actually, I was shocked when I first discovered the internet and found out Bubsy was considered a bad game. I always thought it was fun. Not perfect, but still a decent little platformer).

So here are a lot of my personal Genesis favorites:

Thunder Force 2, 3, 4 (4 is called "Lightening Force" in the USA)
all the Valis games
all the Phantasy Star games
all the Shining Something games
Super Hydlide
LANDSTALKER!!!
Light Crusader
Sol-Deace (the Sega CD has a version called Sol-Feace which might be better, I dunno)
Bio Hazard Battle
Contra Hard Corps
Castlevania Bloodlines
Chakan: the Forever Man
Might and Magic: Gates to Another World
Street Fighter II: Champion Edition

..... I'm on a time crunch, so I'll list more when I have more time.

Also, might get a Power Base Converter so you can play Master System games (this way you can essentially play all four Phantasy Star games on your Genny)

[Tanooki]

Good suggestions, have to go over that list I linked and tweak it a bit more looking over things.

And you know I had bubsy on the SNES back in the day, finished it too, never realized it sucked either. I do remember the jump physics pissing me off until I learned them fairly well, but the game worked and the comedic moves, balancing on edges and deaths were amusing.

Also I wasn't considering a Power Base converter, they're not exactly cheap and I gave up a SMS just a few years ago as I got bored of the games I had (around 40.) I wouldn't object to it if I accidented upon one cheap locally but I don't see that likely as it's not a big game area. This weekend (with no rain) I'll hit the two flea markets and see what I could maybe dig up. I know I saw Castlevania for $40~ at one of them loose which is marginally better than online pricing.


Again thanks for some ideas. If you see something on my list that looks like it sucks let me know. I'm going to try and more or less NOT get games I had before unless I really want them back so I can play something new. I never was much of a Sega player, had the DC for its life and the Genesis with around 20+ games into its Majesco years and earlier 00s.

[FieryReign]

Instruments of Chaos is utter garbage. I'm guessing you want to see how terrible it is? It is quite laughable for about 3 minutes. Sword of Vermillion is probably the worst rpg on the system. Along with Faery Tale Adventure.

Stay away from non-sports EA titles or anything not named Road Rash. Bunch of shoddy PC and Amiga ports that were never good to begin with.

Can't agree on Super Hydlide. Aside from some decent tunes, it's still Hydlide.

[The Adventurer]

Alisia Dragoon is a solid under looked action game, though it's price has been jumping lately.

Decapattack is strange and fun

Mystic Defender is great

All the Valis games

[Tanooki]

Instruments of Chaos is utter garbage. I'm guessing you want to see how terrible it is? It is quite laughable for about 3 minutes. Sword of Vermillion is probably the worst rpg on the system. Along with Faery Tale Adventure.

Stay away from non-sports EA titles or anything not named Road Rash. Bunch of shoddy PC and Amiga ports that were never good to begin with.

Can't agree on Super Hydlide. Aside from some decent tunes, it's still Hydlide.

I don't intend to buy any sports games at all, mostly no racers either but i like Virtua Racing on Genesis. Hydlide I avoid, the NES game and ports said enough there. I'll kill Vermillion if it's that bad, not going to waste time on a crap RPG. As far as the Instruments of Chaos -- it's Indiana Jones, have a higher pain threshold due to that alone but I'll watch more about it before I nuke it or not (probably will if it's that bad as the 3rd Indy on every system sucks balls in all forms.)


Alisia Dragoon is a solid under looked action game, though it's price has been jumping lately.

Decapattack is strange and fun

Mystic Defender is great

All the Valis games

Alisia Dragoon I really like, but never owned it's on my list already and so are all 3 of the Valis games, not sure if I put Mystic Defender and Decap Attack if I forgot to add that I should as I remember it being alright.

[theclaw]

Also I wasn't considering a Power Base converter, they're not exactly cheap and I gave up a SMS just a few years ago as I got bored of the games I had (around 40.) I wouldn't object to it if I accidented upon one cheap locally but I don't see that likely as it's not a big game area. This weekend (with no rain) I'll hit the two flea markets and see what I could maybe dig up. I know I saw Castlevania for $40~ at one of them loose which is marginally better than online pricing.

Yeah it's no priority to be honest. Look into a 3rd party solution down the road.
Then focus on Europe for things like Master of Darkness, Ninja Gaiden, or Bubble Bobble.

[Tanooki]

I did I had the first two of those golden axe warrior, strider, streets of rage 1+2, all the sonics and some others. SMS is fairly played out for me.

[FieryReign]

Hey now, the EA sports games are awesome on Genny. Best ever, right alongside the Tecmo Bowls and Blades of Steels of the world. Road Rash is a riot as well. Can't lump those sports games into the modern sports garbage released today. I've seen them go for as low as 50¢. It's a shame how the 8 and 16 bit sports games take as much hate as they do nowadays.

Remember the old Madden Bowls? Masta Ace(one of the greatest rappers ever) used to wreck the tournament. It was fun reading about it in the Source, of all magazines. It's been ruined, not even fun anymore. Oh well.

[Tanooki]

Ok in all fairness I only hate most sports games made and don't want to bother. That said, unlicensed sports titles like Baseball Stars, the 'Mario' sports stuff on GBC/N64 were solid, Hot Shots Golf stuff, Blades of Steel, Double Dribble -- I got into that. NHL94 fan here like most, it was at its best there, and I would never shit talk my own game I was on NHL Hitz2002 as I loved that no penalty hockey beat down we created at Midway (the sequels blew, story behind it related to EA's disgusting behavior.) I have no interest at all in football real or game, but yes I know tecmo bowl is loved.

I just need to for the time being try and restrain myself and pace some growth so I don't get burned out. There's so little coming out on the 3DS or PS4 I want at all going forward and it is spaced out too that I'd put good money on I've got time. NES and SNES is out of control, N64 I'm good with for awhile now, and GB/C I need to play what I have so it's a good place to be to explore. That's why the thread exists. I never had a lot of time for the Genny when I had it. I put a lot of time more on the Nomad than the G3 by far and I did Virtua Racing until I got good at it, Konami's franchie stuff(but never turtles oddly), GnG from Capcom, and a few of the other mass loved well explored stuff from Sega themselves like Sonic and Vectorman which I couldn't get into much kind of like GUnstar Heroes. I'd like to have some variety, stuff that's not glaringly hard but not all push over either, just enjoyable and maybe feels a little less 'Nintendo' like I suppose though even cute stuff like Ristar and Dynamite Headdy look solid.

[Edmond Dantes]

Instruments of Chaos is utter garbage. I'm guessing you want to see how terrible it is? It is quite laughable for about 3 minutes. Sword of Vermillion is probably the worst rpg on the system. Along with Faery Tale Adventure.

Honestly, from what I've played of Sword of Vermillion, I don't see why it has a bad reputation.

That said, the mention of Faery Tale Adventure and the comment on Super Hydlide remind me of an article/video I wanted to do. I'm not saying this is always the case, but it seems like sometimes people just don't "get" older types of RPGs that put more impetus on the player's own willingness to explore and discover and less on telling a story. Not to say there aren't games that do that completely the wrong way--there certainly are--but usually once you figure out the right way to play older RPGs, they're damn fun. Hell I practically can't stand Final Fantasy VI anymore now that I've discovered the older style, and FFVI was the game that introduced me to RPGs.

[FieryReign]

Honestly, from what I've played of Sword of Vermillion, I don't see why it has a bad reputation.

That said, the mention of Faery Tale Adventure and the comment on Super Hydlide remind me of an article/video I wanted to do. I'm not saying this is always the case, but it seems like sometimes people just don't "get" older types of RPGs that put more impetus on the player's own willingness to explore and discover and less on telling a story. Not to say there aren't games that do that completely the wrong way--there certainly are--but usually once you figure out the right way to play older RPGs, they're damn fun. Hell I practically can't stand Final Fantasy VI anymore now that I've discovered the older style, and FFVI was the game that introduced me to RPGs.

I respect that, most def. I tend to give every game a chance, and don't care what critics say. But these games just never did it for me. No disrespect. If you're into that style of game, ok. They don't fit on the Genesis in my opinion. There's a 68000 in there, not meant for boring, slow paced rpgs. Like the crippling Snes cpu.

[Steve W]

I have two reasons to hate EA Sports games - first, I don't like sports. Second, EA sports games are pretty much three-fourths of the Genesis racks in any retro store. They're everywhere, in every flea market or thrift store, there's a few EA sports games someplace there but no other game genre. It's shocking to find Genesis games in the wild that aren't sports games, to be honest. That makes it easy to hate them.

[Tanooki]

Well I don't like old style RPGs if we're talking something cruder than like Final Fantasy 4J would be viewed today in its original format or even it's precursors on the NES/Famicom. I don't like having big open areas with a total lack of a sense of direction, but worse yet are those should have been left on pen and paper types where you need to basically graph out where you're walking so you don't just up just going in circles until you expire. I don't need an in game map persay, but when it starts getting bloated and slow enough to get confusing and tiring I rarely could put up with it 20 years ago and I have no tolerance for it at all now. The last one I tried that with was Arcana (SNES) earlier this yera and only took down around a 1/3 of the game before I got fed up with it, and it even has an in game pen and paper grid map it drew for you.

If there are some fairly crusty RPGs on this system, warn me if they're on the list as I want nothing to do with it. Diablo types I can dael with, but pen and paper or just large and confusing dungeon stuff I can not.

[Leo_A]

NES and SNES is out of control

Only if you want 1st party, JRPG's, and Konami & Capcom titles. While that's a large swath of the classics for those two systems, it still leaves many dozens of nice games that can still be had for very little.

[FieryReign]

I have two reasons to hate EA Sports games - first, I don't like sports. Second, EA sports games are pretty much three-fourths of the Genesis racks in any retro store. They're everywhere, in every flea market or thrift store, there's a few EA sports games someplace there but no other game genre. It's shocking to find Genesis games in the wild that aren't sports games, to be honest. That makes it easy to hate them.

Ever bothered to glance over the SNES or NES sections these days? It's a travesty for all cartridge based relics of the past. I've seen Aladdin more times that it makes me sick. If you don't like sports, whatever, that's fine. Doesn't change the fact they are the funnest of any generation. Typical sports hate.

Here's one for ya. Anime sucks, the art style is played out to the nth degree. Young under-the-age girls with bug eyes, big tits, and skimpy outfits? Makes me question the entire industry...

[Tanooki]

Only if you want 1st party, JRPG's, and Konami & Capcom titles. While that's a large swath of the classics for those two systems, it still leaves many dozens of nice games that can still be had for very little.

Or perhaps the fact I've owned around 400+ NES games from the full library and there's little left I'd bother with anymore helps on that, and the few I would are more expensive and I won't be baited into 3 figures games (and no they're not from capcom or konami or nintendo.) SNES though, I've got a small list of games I've got outstanding in my google drive, but they'll be nitpicked at as I find the motivation and time to care, or if I can find them in my travels cheap as I won't bother with them online I don't think. I do have a Zombies Ate My Neighbors on hold at half price books, they will do it despite being a coupon week so I"ll snap it up on Sunday for $20 instead of $40. :)


I've got to go with Steve on that. Even when I didn't mind it a lot of attention, it was still always in my face going by the shelves and tables...wall of EA Sports/EA games in general crap spewed everywhere in all forms of nice looking to destroyed(more oftne than not in the ugly end) on the shelves. Played out, boring, and no one wants them. I don't like sports games as I can figure out the AI fairly well in the 2D era/1st 3D gen system stuff so I stick with the unlicensed and sometimes goofy titles as they have better ground to stand on and last. Sports games are hardly the funnest of the games out there unless you're just a sports addict. It's the same shit year in, year out with a new date and a new roster thrown on it and still with the full sticker price. Perhaps more acceptable pre-internet/patching with HDD days but today it's fucking insulting buying Madden for $60, then getting nickel and dimed for extras...then 12 months later they update a roster and the date and very little else and hit you again. Easily could save everyone time and money pushing those updates for like $20-30, but why bother when you have an entire sea of sucker fish.



Anyway on topic...I wrangled a decent deal this evening on a 6 pack of Genesis games in a nice little priority mail bundle -- Castlevania, GnG, Castle of Illusion, World of Illusion, MK1 and Zero Tolerance. That will be a nice spread of goodies to put some time on, only have had the first two before. I've had an Illusion game before on the GG/SMS in the past.

[Steve W]

Here's one for ya. Anime sucks, the art style is played out to the nth degree. Young under-the-age girls with bug eyes, big tits, and skimpy outfits? Makes me question the entire industry...
I understand that one. The obsession with high school girls is disturbing. I used to like anime in the late '90s as an interesting look at a different culture, but it seems that Japanese culture is youth obsessed.

I was looking through my emulator at Genesis titles, and then I started looking through the Playstation games. I fired one up, it turns out to be a Japanese release of the EA game Future Cop: L.A.P.D. and I watched the cinemas. The dispatcher woman that narrates everything is shown in the cutscenes but she was redone for the Japanese version - in that one she's blonde with typical anime hair and big eyes. It's bizarre. Like they can't handle artistically accurate artwork of a woman, she's got to have gigantic eyes and gravity defying hair (that are colors not found in nature).

[SparTonberry]

Well I don't like old style RPGs if we're talking something cruder than like Final Fantasy 4J would be viewed today in its original format or even it's precursors on the NES/Famicom. I don't like having big open areas with a total lack of a sense of direction, but worse yet are those should have been left on pen and paper types where you need to basically graph out where you're walking so you don't just up just going in circles until you expire. I don't need an in game map persay, but when it starts getting bloated and slow enough to get confusing and tiring I rarely could put up with it 20 years ago and I have no tolerance for it at all now. The last one I tried that with was Arcana (SNES) earlier this yera and only took down around a 1/3 of the game before I got fed up with it, and it even has an in game pen and paper grid map it drew for you.

If there are some fairly crusty RPGs on this system, warn me if they're on the list as I want nothing to do with it. Diablo types I can dael with, but pen and paper or just large and confusing dungeon stuff I can not.

Yeah, RPGs are just not for you, I'm guessing.
But I can't recall very many NES or SNES RPGs with dungeons I would say are "too" complex. Yeah, they're pretty open, but they usually have a few very distinct brances. It's usually simple enough to remember without a map. It just might take a few tries through a dungeon to find the "right" way.

But it's better than like Final Fantasy X. I don't know why I play that. I guess I sort of like the story and characters, and the battle system is nice in that tries to use all characters, until it wears out its welcome. But honestly it's clear at that point that Square-Enix had reached the point they put so much effort into graphics and CG that it became impossible to make complex dungeons. Much of it is just a simple straight line with a couple tiny alcoves for "exploration". What a fucking joke. And I haven't played it but I hear FF13's maps are even MORE dumbed down. No wonder they said they "couldn't" make an FF7 remake by their modern standards. To redraw ALL of that in their super-high ultra-def standards would take forever.
I hadn't played the Omega Ruins extra dungeon in FFX because I wasn't leveled enough to reasonably fight the enemies there but at least it looked like an actual dungeon.
But I hear the super-ultimate optional boss, if you are equipped properly and know the strats it's still like half an hour. HALF AN HOUR for a single boss fight? Is that supposed to be fun? I hear people on ROM hacking forums asking to give the FF4 and FF6 bosses up to 16 million HP over the current limit of 64k. And again I ask why, to drag it out excessively long?
S-E CHEAP CASH-IN RANT TIME
And I haven't played the 16-bit mobile ports but I hear they're all atrocities. I remember there was one game that seriously looked like RPG Maker XP. I mean SHIT S-E for being such a graphics ***** company you gotta make something that looks like it was made by a tool for AMATEUR game designers, not even AT LEAST reuse your OWN vintage graphics (which would be FAR more respectable)? And then All The Bravest, never will play but it seems pretty obvious nothing more than an effort to blatantly gouge nostalgia.

[Tanooki]

I don't hate em all. I want one at this point in time that's like 20 hours short maybe upwards of 30 it it really gets to me. Currently I have stuff like NES FF1+DW4, SNES FF2+3+CT+MarioRPG, 3DS has Xenoblade+Tales of the Abyss, N64 I have Quest, GC has Tales of Symphonia, GBA has the FF games and a few others. I fairly recently got rid of quite a few because of some crusty mechanics like Skies of Arcadia for one.

I just don't dig stuff that's too open, too slow, needs to probably be drawn out not to get lost, advanced d&d 8bit/16bit style rpg console games. I've got FF13 parts1 and 2 on my PC they're nice, but got long enough (pt2) I just stopped playing for no reason at all months ago and I can't figure why as it was decent. My mind just wanders as they get longer and more bloated or they're too archaic. I like RPGs, but I need to really look into anything the Genesis has and see if I could fairly well stick to it. I'm RPG picky, more so now with the kid since it's a time problem on top. I don't mind the linear RPG style Square had gone towards lately with theirs due to the overly bloated budgets and graphical engines, it helps me stay more focused and the story writing kept me caring about it because I wasn't pissing 5hours each town grinding for crap to do it again.

I can't wait to get the stuff I mentioned last night. I also know Sega-16 has an insane database of all things sega with respect to game reviews so I'm going to have to thumb through it and weed out or add things on my list. Also there's no saying that if i found a $5 or less Genesis game at a flea market or local shop I wouldn't play the old Nintendo of the 90s/00s bravery game of the shot in the dark as you may just find a gem you never heard of which is a fun aspect of the hunt.

[FieryReign]

Sega-16 isn't the place to go for reviews. They're fanboys with no objectivity. They gave Super Thunderblade a 10/10 which says it all right there. That dude from gamesack is a mod there, and quite the prick.

[Tanooki]

Well I don't follow gamer politics as they're disgusting and childish which is why the gamer media on the whole is untrustworthy. If you know a place with most the US Gen library reviewed which some objectivity then share a link. I don't see how thunderblade would deserve a 10 either as I remember some form of it from the arcade years back and it was average at best.

[goldenband]

Sega-16 isn't the place to go for reviews. They're fanboys with no objectivity. They gave Super Thunderblade a 10/10 which says it all right there.

That's from the very early days of the site, and everyone there knows it's a stupid review (http://www.sega-16.com/2005/08/super-thunderblade/). "They" didn't give the game a review, one particular guy did, back when review standards were lax.

In fact there was literally just a thread where people were asking the review to be pulled --

Perhaps we should re-evaluate some reviews, delete, and start over. (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?30480-Perhaps-we-should-re-evaluate-some-reviews-delete-and-start-over)

-- but the site owner has a policy of not pulling existing reviews because, in his opinion, it'd open up too big a can of worms with everyone demanding that their favorite or most hated game be re-rated.

There is no "they". Every review at Sega-16 is the product of whoever wrote it, not of some site-wide hive mind. Some are great, some are terrible. Most are somewhere in between.


That dude from gamesack is a mod there, and quite the prick.

For all intents and purposes, he's not a mod anymore, since he's sworn the site off completely (and pretty much gave a big old middle finger to the place on his way out). I like his work on Game Sack, but it certainly doesn't take much to piss him off.

[Tanooki]

Hey I understand they have a helpful enough forum to use if you're part of the club, like invite only I think it is right? I'd like a piece of that action since it should keep the trolls out. If that's their stance on thunderforce's awful biased review I can actually respect that for the most part. If you start picking and choosing what to kill due to early fanboyism because they took it less serious early on I can respect it because it would open the door for endless bitching about so called biased reviews and cause them hell for it given their size and age now.

I still think it couldn't hurt to put date and administrators prefix or addendum down by the score noting it's an early review and may be unfairly balanced with more opinion than fact to cover themselves from not looking credible in that respect but it also is a damned if you do or don't situation it appears.


Anyway still curious what a good site would be as to not just trust one.


ALSO...I had some very ghetto like 2 dollar profit (after ebay and paypal cuts) games (gb/gbc/gba) titles I ditched at the local ma and pa shop earlier -- why? I found they had a nice copy of Elemental Master on the shelf, ended up scoring it for $18 with the credit I got. I read up on it with hardcoregaming101's evaluation of the title and it looks uniquely fun and a bit on the challenging side perhaps, but I like the fantasy element and the details they spoke of. I got 2 cherished games today between that and mega man x w/manual showing up in my box too.

[FieryReign]

Those reviews are screened and heavily edited by the owner himself. It never should've been posted in the first place. Doesn't change the fact they're written by fanboys of the forum.

That's funny about gamesack guy, gotta link? Sounds like a good read. I've thumbed through the forum a few times and would always see him arguing and threatening to ban members for disagreeing or criticizing his dull show. And they still kissed his ass like it was going out of style.

The Videogamecritic has a decent catalog of Sega reviews. He's pretty unbiased. They're not too in-depth, usually just a paragraph or two. But he does have some sort of weird fetish for games with pirates in them and snow/ice levels.

[Tanooki]

Huh didn't know he had wood for ice levels and pirates but I've skimmed that site off and on going way back, kind of actually forgot about it as it has been years. Man I had to redo my game/small lego set shelf now I'm too tired to bother but sit in my chair at the moment. :\

[Niku-Sama]

maybe you should watch the angry video game nerd and see what you SHOULDNT buy instead?

I recently got Batman revenge of the joker and while I have not played it yet I heard it was a good game. runs average about $15 loose

[SparTonberry]

That Batman RotJ review is a joke. That's not even the hard part of the level, let alone the game, he goes nuts about.

[Tanooki]

So I've been digging a bit more, and I've had the system a couple of days now which is nice. The RF isn't all that good, forgot how the old system displayed, even more apparent when you're not on a CRT.

I know they an a/v cable, it's mono for the model 1 and stereo for the other 2 because the stereo runs to that phones jack up front correct?
I'd need this -> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-SEGA-GENESIS-Model-1-MK-1601-1601-AV-Cable-6ft-RCA-Cord-Composite-/331686004521?hash=item4d3a06c729:g:bEMAAOSwHnFV1jh O

I found Rocket Knight Adventure today for just $7, and yesterday same price Decap Attack -- two fantastic games and my Turtles title showed up today too wow it's good, but you really can see and hear the downgrade of the music and vocals pulled from the SNES release.

[Niku-Sama]

Are you playing on a crt monitor or a crt tv?
If your playing on A monitor then I'd just mood it for rcas and be done.... Actually if probably too the same with the standard composite out too

[Tanooki]

Plugged into my LED TV.

[Edmond Dantes]

I understand that one. The obsession with high school girls is disturbing. I used to like anime in the late '90s as an interesting look at a different culture, but it seems that Japanese culture is youth obsessed.

I was looking through my emulator at Genesis titles, and then I started looking through the Playstation games. I fired one up, it turns out to be a Japanese release of the EA game Future Cop: L.A.P.D. and I watched the cinemas. The dispatcher woman that narrates everything is shown in the cutscenes but she was redone for the Japanese version - in that one she's blonde with typical anime hair and big eyes. It's bizarre. Like they can't handle artistically accurate artwork of a woman, she's got to have gigantic eyes and gravity defying hair (that are colors not found in nature).

To be honest, this particular situation may just be a corporation saying "we need to do this to increase sales!" And thus it says more about the makers of the game than the people its intended for. I mean I have seen Japanese games that forego the anime aesthetic (King's Field, Dracula X for SNES, and more than a couple of Japanese adventure games (http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/catalog/genre-adventurejp.htm)) and still did relatively well.

That said though, it does feel like their culture is... problematic. My main problem with anime and such these days is the amount of authority worship and that they seem to think tactics are completely unimportant--how many anime are there where a character wins by being smart vs. having some bullshit sudden burst of power? For that matter even in their "strategy" games I've played they seem to almost always come down to one overpowered unit mopping the floor with everybody. I understand that this is in part due to oriental history pretty much consisting of "we were held in thrall by tyrants until the 1950s and are having trouble adapting to freedom" but still.


Well I don't like old style RPGs if we're talking something cruder than like Final Fantasy 4J would be viewed today in its original format or even it's precursors on the NES/Famicom. I don't like having big open areas with a total lack of a sense of direction, but worse yet are those should have been left on pen and paper types where you need to basically graph out where you're walking so you don't just up just going in circles until you expire.

... I'd like to have an example of the latter, actually, because now I wanna play it. I literally never need to draw maps. Even in Wizardry. In fact the only game I ever even bothered mapping for was the Bard's Tale on PC... something about its scrolling messes up my sense of direction.

As for the former, that's actually something I need to touch on in my article. 90% of the time the games actually do give you direction, but people just miss it because modern RPGs have trained them into terrible habits. Just a free one: how many times do you actually talk to people? In games like Dragon Warrior and Phantasy Star, if you never talk to anyone then yeah it'll become a game of wandering around randomly, but in Final Fantasy VII nobody ever says anything important so screw them.

Just for an example of how this works: At the beginning of Phantasy Star, you're told your overall goal is "kill Lassic" and your first mission is "find a man named Odin." Here are five facts you learn very quickly:

A) Odin lives in Scion
B) He has a talking cat with a medicine bottle around its neck.
C) He went to fight Medusa
D) Medusa lives in a cave to the south.
E) Someone in Scion found a "strange animal" who he sold on Motavia.

If you go to the cave to the south to find Odin you'll find he's been stoned off his ass. So clearly, your "direction" at this point is to find his talking cat, which you know is on Motavia. And if you've been diligent you'll know that there's a shop that sells "Secrets." (To be fair, you have to pick this option three times and first-time players might not realize they need to do that)...

And see, that's how these games work. They give you direction, but they expect you to do legwork in piecing it all together. It's like being a detective in a way.

But yeah, RPGs aren't for everyone. I'm gonna warn you that most RPGs I recommend (and for that matter, most of the ones on the Genesis in general) are not exactly story-dominated affairs. I've heard Phantasy Star IV is the most like a Square-Enix game out of all of them on the Genesis (I never did conquer 2 and 3 so I never touched 4).

[FieryReign]

Phantasy Star was BS. How the hell are you supposed to know you have to talk to a shopkeeper 3 times just to obtain some stupid passport or whatever? Or dungeons where you can permanently get stuck? Cryptic nonsense like that completely ruins a game.

[Edmond Dantes]

There's a dungeon where you can get permanently stuck? Where?

[FieryReign]

A couple places, falling down those invisible holes. If you don't have the magic or item to take you back out, you're screwed. I threw my hands up on one of those ice caves. Those later dungeons pretty much required graph paper. Unless you have some sort of superhuman memory. It's way better than 2+3 though. Looks better too.

[celerystalker]

I didn't think Phantasy Star was that absurd to figure out, but I do agree that dungeons all but require graph paper after awhile unless you want to use a guide. I had more fun with Miracle Warriors as Master System RPGs go. I did strangely enjoy Sorcerer's Kingdom on Genesis, which is a little less conventional. Phantasy Star II and III never bugged me, but I have the hint books they came with (3's might have been a send off...).

[Edmond Dantes]

I remember from a previous playthru that the FINAL dungeon has a part where you have to look at the wall in a hallway to see a door (whcih you can't see unless you're looking right at it, which I never understood because RPGs on technically inferior hardware could still display sideways doors) which I can't see people figuring out without help or a graph.

Other than that though, it'll be interesting to see how far I can get without mapping... though the pit traps can be annoying, but I don't think there are any that can genuinely tra you--there's always a nearby stair.

[SparTonberry]

Phantasy Star was BS. How the hell are you supposed to know you have to talk to a shopkeeper 3 times just to obtain some stupid passport or whatever? Or dungeons where you can permanently get stuck? Cryptic nonsense like that completely ruins a game.

In Dragon Quest II, you had to get a key from a shop by choosing an invisible option in the middle of a shop menu. That's pretty suspicious as menus normally don't have any blank spaces in that game.

However, they kind of messed up that visual cue in the GBC version, due to the menu layout differences. On the NES, the shop windows are big enough to always list all the items at once. But on the GBC, it's only big enough to list three items at once and requiring the player to scroll left and right through multiple pages if there's more than three items. If I remember, there were a total of five items in the shop (including the secret one). So it would have three items on page 1, two on page 2 (with the bottom space unused). The problem is the secret item was #3, so it would ALSO appear as an empty space. (although I could be wrong, if it were six items (two full windows, that'd be even worse because players not noticing the page # on the corner of the window could assume that secret space was just the end of the list).

[Tanooki]

My short term memory I feel isn't the best, and it's not photographic so if you can actually handle something like the grided off worlds of the Phantasy Star 1-3 dungeons (well 1 is pretty small) and other games that play on a turn based grid like the D&D stuff on Genesis more power to you, I can't, and I refuse to graph that out. If I wanted that, I'd get on skype, go buy a D&D handbook and some dice and find a dungeon master and use my own imagination as that's far more fun, engaging and easy to sink time into than a crusty out of time gaming interface. Now if PStar 4 is like how Square and Enix handled their RPGs that one I could deal with and I should put that on my list. Fiery does make a couple good points about asinine stuff some RPGs so like the hidden menu, or ask 3x and get the item crap especially when the game isn't clear. A good violater of that in the GBA era was Golden Sun (1) as you had like 20% of the djinn in obtuse areas off the path in dungeons and 2 of them were in the middle of the overworld field with no marker, no mention in towns, no idea unless you bought the Nintendo Power Advance guide with maps on it or read a FAQ which to me is disgusting since it keeps you away from the best spells coming up short. You are dead on right about Phantasy Star 1, I never had an issue with it, loved it. I've never tried #3 as i heard it was weak, but #2 I did have access to in the past and took down around 1/3 or more of it before I stopped, and it was due to the annoying dungeons, very slow pace, overkill encounter rates -- the story was good but it couldn't hobble me out of the wall of bs. As celery there said #2 and #3 had guides with or mailed away for, and if they laid out the dungeons that would have made the games far more fun, but it also says that the games were overly hard to navigate or they were trying to sell guides if that PS3 one was a paid mail away which is fairly sleazy and a precursor of most modern RPGs that get obtuse to sell guides.

Anyway on topic...I did happen upon an RPG I have a 50/50 feeling I'll dislike but it was $5 so I decided why not earlier today -- Shining in the Darkness, also ended up for the same price with Tiny Toons Busters Hidden Treasure another Konami game which should be pretty fun since they were consistent good game makers back in the 90s unlike now.

[Edmond Dantes]

On that note, you might like the Shining Force games. They're Strategy-RPGs, sort of like Fire Emblem except there's towns and minor exploration aspects. Pretty much though, you can't get lost or go off-storyline in those games. The second one has some hidden pieces of Mithril you can find and I think there's some B.S. involved there (I once read that which button you use to activate the search function makes a difference but I dunno if that's true), but I'm pretty sure the game is completable enough without even needing it. The first one had hidden characters I didn't find but again, I finished it just fine.

Shining in the Darkness has a built-in automap in the form of a spell (I forget what the spell's name is tho), so I hope that helps. I always went in with an Angel Wing in case I needed a quick escape from the dungeon.

Actually yeah, while I liked Phantasy Star II a part of me felt like it was actually weaker than PS1. I mean, its the point where the series cemented that its nature leans more towards Science than Fantasy, but I remember not liking the battle system, feeling the dungeons were kind of bland, and while the story is interesting you end up having to go and do a bunch of unrelated jazz in order to just accomplish your first given sub-mission (that being to go to the bio labs and find out why all the monsters are being created). A far cry from PS1's first mission being "Find Odin" which you accomplish in like ten minutes. Also not a huge fan of the way new characters are introduced and how you have no obvious reason to use most of them, especially "might disappear any time you enter a shop and require you to go back to your home" Shir.

I mean, it's not a bad game, but it always seemed weird to me that Phantasy Star II is often considered the best in the series and made several "Best games of all time" lists, sometimes being the only Phantasy Star game that did, when I'd argue others in the series were far better. I also never got the hate for PS3. It's not perfect, but its still a pretty fun game.