Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 Western release canned over sexism concerns

[Tupin]

Seems a bit like defeating the point, do you think? (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/dead-or-alive-xtreme-3-wont-ship-worldwide-due-to-/1100-6432590/)

Supposedly it was because the Japanese developers "didn't want to deal with" the accusations that would be thrown their way if it came out in Europe or the US. Other places are encouraging its sale by promoting imports. Your thoughts? I personally might pick up the game because the PS4 is region-free and I think the backlash is silly.

[The 1 2 P]

Well they were probably correct that there would be a fair amount of backlash here in the US and this could have hurt sales. But the Xbox One is region free so those that want to pick it up can still do so.

[Tupin]

Well they were probably correct that there would be a fair amount of backlash here in the US and this could have hurt sales. But the Xbox One is region free so those that want to pick it up can still do so.
Like with any controversy, you'd get people buying the game just to experience it. It happened with Hatred and its AO rating, and a similar thing to this happened with Dragon's Crown scantily clad female characters. All the outrage made the games sell more. Hell, the company that is importing them is getting so many preorders for the game that it wouldn't surprise me if Tecmo changed its tune soon.

[davidbrit2]

And nothing of value was lost.

[Satoshi_Matrix]

I'm not sure how I feel about this. One on hand, I'm absolutely appalled any game at all should have a western release cancelled because of concerns from the anita sarkeesian feminazi movement. because you knwo they'll take this as a "victory" when in fact the only thing they "won" was denying work and profits to American localization teams since this is a niche game and would sell only to a niche crowd and will do so anyway because of region free.

That said, the Dead or Alive Xtreme series has been historically dubious in terms of quality. The original Xbox game was solid in its ideas but the execution of them was haphazard, with a Persona-like attention to time management that I didn't like nor did I feel added anything.

Then the Xbox 360's Xtreme 2 was just bad.

Given the amount of time and how excellent DoA5/Ultimate/LastRound is, I suspect that Tecmo could make a really excellent game....but I'm not sure that will happen. I'm going to wait and see if I can find unbiased reviews. If the game is good, then I'll import, but if it is good, then it'll be the first time for the Xtreme series.


But ultimately, fuck censorship and the anita sarkeesian movement. Almost everything they deem to have a problem with in gaming is ether skewed way out of the reality of the game or is just plain factually wrong. The times they do have legitimate complaints are in games that are clearly made solely for adults and a particular niche. Gaming is art just as film or television is. Denying the release of a game is denying art. Simple as that.

[Gentlegamer]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/909/195/f7b.jpg

[theclaw]

Eh. It was never announced for the west in the first place. Giving any kind of explanation, however wise it may have seemed, was just asking for worse backlash than blanket refusal to comment.

[Daria]

Yeah on one hand fuck censorship.

On the other... it's DOA volleyball.

[Zthun]

SJW thought police actually had an effect. Looks like angry joe was wrong. Damn....

[The 1 2 P]

But the Xbox One is region free so those that want to pick it up can still do so.

It looks like they haven't announced an Xbox One version yet, just the other two systems.

[Sailorneorune]

And nothing of value was lost.

^ This.

DOAX has been garbage for as long as I can remember.

My ex thought it was great... :roll: I thought it was a great excuse to play something else... namely, Phoenix Wright.

[kupomogli]

I have no interest in DoAX3 but this kind of thing isn't good for the video game industry. Japanese developers are already scared to localize games, because the video gaming market is so small in comparison to everywhere else, this is where these feminists and women's rights people can get their voices heard, but they're ruining the possibility of people to play the games they want. You might not want to play DoAX3, but what about people who actually like it for more than just the boobs? What happens when it's a game that you want to play that just happens to have character models like those in Dragon's Crown? And it's like these people don't even attack every game, it's just random. Look at how many Senran Kagura came to the west, the Hyperdimension Neptunia games, etc, and none of these games were attacked? I know that Satoshi Matrix in particular is a fan of the Hyperdimension Neptunia games, so what if NIS was attacked for that game and backed out on localizing the games. The hate towards the game is just really bad for the video game industry in the west.

[Zthun]

^ This.

DOAX has been garbage for as long as I can remember.

My ex thought it was great... :roll: I thought it was a great excuse to play something else... namely, Phoenix Wright.

Maybe so, but I don't think that's the point.

Although after I thought about it, I wonder if this will be a marketing stunt for publicity and they'll eventually release a copy here in the west after much demand.

[Tupin]

What happens when it's a game that you want to play that just happens to have character models like those in Dragon's Crown? And it's like these people don't even attack every game, it's just random. Look at how many Senran Kagura came to the west, the Hyperdimension Neptunia games, etc, and none of these games were attacked? I know that Satoshi Matrix in particular is a fan of the Hyperdimension Neptunia games, so what if NIS was attacked for that game and backed out on localizing the games. The hate towards the game is just really bad for the video game industry in the west.
I know for a fact that Dragon's Crown was attacked for this same issue and so is Senran Kagura. I mean I don't think Senran Kagura is a very good game in terms of being a fun fighting game but I actually saw professional reviews that knocked off points for it being sexist. Like, what? Not too sure about Hyperdimension Neptunia, I'm sure if pushed you'd just get more of the casual racism and cultural ignorance that this crowd seems to be infamous for. It's like how they say "lol these white nerd dudebros want every game to have porn in it" when they're these niche things that are like a Hooters restaurant: having this is the point.

Seriously. I've lost count of how many times they just lapse into bashing Japan and Japanese culture and implying that Western ideals are better. And here we have a living example of a Japanese company influenced by Japanese culture being afraid to make something because of extremist Westerners. Disgusting.

[Emperor Megas]

I loved the original Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball. LOVED IT. My wife loved it, too, and she doesn't play many games. I can't tell you how many hours we put into that silly game. I even put together a soundtrack album for her one year as a stocking stuffer. I know the is more hated than loved, but guess our taste was a little different from the mainstream, because DOA:X and Fuzion Frenzy were played to death in our house.

I was really excited when I found out that they were releasing a sequel on the XBOX360...and then I bought it...and played it. IT'S SO BAD. I mean, I totally get why people are and aren't fans of the first one, that it's not most gamers cup of tea, but they just did a really terrible job with the sequel. The minigames were terrible and impossible to play (for me, anyway), the game play was just weird (I can't really explain it, but it just didn't feel that tight) and they actually removed two player mode...WHAT THE FUCK!? It's fucking VOLLEYBALL! It IS pretty, and I like having an option of which room to stay in, not that it mattered much, but there were things about the game I could never really figure out, or remember, like where the damn gifts you got from Zack went to for one thing. It was just a huge disappointment.

With that said, I'd still like to try the 3 installment and will import grab an import copy at some point if I find it for cheap.

[Dashopepper]

Seriously. I've lost count of how many times they just lapse into bashing Japan and Japanese culture and implying that Western ideals are better. And here we have a living example of a Japanese company influenced by Japanese culture being afraid to make something because of extremist Westerners. Disgusting.

Japan is know for being behind western culture when it comes to equality for women in the home and workplace. You should check out some of the forced rape games before you call Westerners censoring them disgusting.

Also FYI DOA Volleyball is made for 13 year old Japanese boys.

And "Fuck Censorship," Ugg I wish this forum had some more interesting "Fucking Ideas."

[Tupin]

Japan is know for being behind western culture when it comes to equality for women in the home and workplace. You should check out some of the forced rape games before you call Westerners censoring them disgusting.

Also FYI DOA Volleyball is made for 13 year old Japanese boys.

And "Fuck Censorship," Ugg I wish this forum had some more interesting "Fucking Ideas."
Yes, and I'm sure the best way to fix that is a bunch of Westerners being overtly racist at them. You mean the game that was unacceptable and caused issues even in Japan by the way?

[kupomogli]

I know for a fact that Dragon's Crown was attacked for this same issue and so is Senran Kagura. I mean I don't think Senran Kagura is a very good game in terms of being a fun fighting game but I actually saw professional reviews that knocked off points for it being sexist. Like, what? Not too sure about Hyperdimension Neptunia, I'm sure if pushed you'd just get more of the casual racism and cultural ignorance that this crowd seems to be infamous for. It's like how they say "lol these white nerd dudebros want every game to have porn in it" when they're these niche things that are like a Hooters restaurant: having this is the point.

Seriously. I've lost count of how many times they just lapse into bashing Japan and Japanese culture and implying that Western ideals are better. And here we have a living example of a Japanese company influenced by Japanese culture being afraid to make something because of extremist Westerners. Disgusting.

Dragon's Crown was attacked starting a few months prior to the release and more after it was released when it was found out that it was more than just the Sorceress and Amazon, but Senran Kagura, Hyperdimension Neptunia, Akiba's Trip, and others, didn't have news stories on a regular basis that were bashing the games. You may have seen some people complaining about it in the reviews, but it wasn't so bad to where they took to twitter and sent a bunch of hate mail to the developers then later reported it as news. You quoted one long section but I didn't mention Dragon's Crown as one of the games that wasn't, it was two sentences prior.

[Emperor Megas]

Japan is know for being behind western culture when it comes to equality for women in the home and workplace. You should check out some of the forced rape games before you call Westerners censoring them disgusting.I'm not sure that's a fair equivocation. There's nuance to societal gender roles/norms. But I'm certainly not trying to get into a thing like that here. Addressing the latter issue though, I will add that if you don't like forced rape games, don't play them. I could go on about the forced MURDER games like GTA that flood the Western market but social justice types don't say much about that sort of thing. I don't like games like that, but I don't want them censored though. I just don't play them.


Also FYI DOA Volleyball is made for 13 year old Japanese boys.Maybe it was (hell, I'm sure Pac-Man was, too), but it certainly wasn't localized in the West for 13 year old Japanese boys.

[kai123]

Japan is know for being behind western culture when it comes to equality for women in the home and workplace. You should check out some of the forced rape games before you call Westerners censoring them disgusting.

Also FYI DOA Volleyball is made for 13 year old Japanese boys.

And "Fuck Censorship," Ugg I wish this forum had some more interesting "Fucking Ideas."

Go back to your " safe space". Boo hoo fictional characters are being portrayed in a way I don't like. So violence in games doesn't lead to violent behavior but sexually explicit games lead to sexual assault? Sound logic.

[Dashopepper]

Go back to your " safe space". Boo hoo fictional characters are being portrayed in a way I don't like. So violence in games doesn't lead to violent behavior but sexually explicit games lead to sexual assault? Sound logic.

"Women" are not fictional characters, try leaving the house once in awhile. Also I didn't know DOA Volleyball featured sexual assault, I just figured people thought women were being objectified. Oh well, and it's apparently "be a hard ass on the internet day" today. Must be all that holiday stress...

[kupomogli]

What's the difference if a video game does it or 75% of television, music, other forms of entertainment does it? People have a problem with this on video games, but it's fine for most television shows to be written around a groups sex life or songs about having sex with some slut at a party. The only reason bitches like Anita Sarkeesian and these other social justice warriors are attacking video games is because gaming is the only form of entertainment that is still small enough that they can be heard and won't be entirely ignored. And it's true, because video games have only started in the past couple decades just started getting really big and ingrained into everyday life for a lot of people, it's easier for these people to make their points heard, and in the process fuck people over who actually want to play these games. There's no problem throwing your opinion of the game in a review or something like that, but don't try to scare developers into not releasing their game just because you as a person have a stick up your ass.

[kai123]

"Women" are not fictional characters, try leaving the house once in awhile. Also I didn't know DOA Volleyball featured sexual assault, I just figured people thought women were being objectified. Oh well, and it's apparently "be a hard ass on the internet day" today. Must be all that holiday stress...

The women in the games are fictional stop being obtuse. You are the type of person that can never ever see the other side of an argument and has never had to deal with real life problems so you make some up so you feel important. I feel a lock coming up on this thread.

[Sailorneorune]

Hyperdimension Neptunia

I wanted to play the first game in the series because it was a RPG with cool retro game references all over the place... then I found about the sexual content shoehorned into it. (Yes, I know it's mild compared to stuff like Senran Kagura and DOAX, but I don't like girls feeling each other up getting in the way of my RPGs-that-otherwise-sound-awesome!). I even tried watching the first episode of the anime to see if it was any better... short version: nope. ^^;

It makes me wonder if it suffered the same fate in development as the anime Kite - where the "sexy" stuff was added in as an afterthought so it would sell.

Back on topic: people are upset about DOAX3 being passed over in the west. I don't really care because I've seen more than I ever wanted to see of the series in the first game until I picked up my DS and started playing some Ace Attorney in an effort to keep my brain from leaking out of my ears.

[Zthun]

I wanted to play the first game in the series because it was a RPG with cool retro game references all over the place... then I found about the sexual content shoehorned into it. (Yes, I know it's mild compared to stuff like Senran Kagura and DOAX, but I don't like girls feeling each other up getting in the way of my RPGs-that-otherwise-sound-awesome!). I even tried watching the first episode of the anime to see if it was any better... short version: nope. ^^;

It makes me wonder if it suffered the same fate in development as the anime Kite - where the "sexy" stuff was added in as an afterthought so it would sell.

Back on topic: people are upset about DOAX3 being passed over in the west. I don't really care because I've seen more than I ever wanted to see of the series in the first game until I picked up my DS and started playing some Ace Attorney in an effort to keep my brain from leaking out of my ears.

Your focusing too much on individual titles. The point being made here, and what makes this dangerous is that it sets a precedence for every other game.

You don't have to be a fan of DOAX or any game that has strong sexual content, but to deny others that get enjoyment from them is nothing more than being a thought police.

[Sailorneorune]

I'm not saying those kinds of games should not be released. I'm saying that games like Neptunia should have an option to just enjoy the game without the stuff that keeps me away from it. A fanservice toggle button, if you will. I want the retro games and Sega fanservice, but not the "she's 18, we swear!" fanservice.

I'm indifferent to DOAX3 being denied a western release, because I thought the first game was complete and utter crap that, based on another poster's opinion of the 2nd game in the series, was somehow made even worse. I understand where people like these kinds of games; I just find the "need" for sexual content to drive a game unnecessary. My opinion of Team Ninja has always been pretty low (and what Nintendo allowed them to do to Metroid is unforgivable).

Anyway, I'm done posting in this thread. I've said what I felt needed to be said.

[Tupin]

If you're really so incapable of playing a game because of virtual cleavage, maybe it's not a game for you period. That's how the game was made. The desensitization of people to violence and the double standards to anything sex-related is yet another funny thing about these critics.

[Gameguy]

They're not holding the game back because they think the content is inappropriate, they're holding it back because they don't think it will sell well enough in western markets anymore because most people aren't interested in that type of content these days. I kind of agree, the modern Tomb Raider games changed the way Lara Croft is depicted for the same reason.

The main appeal of games existing just to show hot women is pretty much over. It's not the 90's anymore, teen boys and adults have easy access to the internet now and can look at real women at any time for free.

[kupomogli]

The main appeal of games existing just to show hot women is pretty much over. It's not the 90's anymore, teen boys and adults have easy access to the internet now and can look at real women at any time for free.

And fake women, too. If you think about it though, if that's the case, what's their reasoning behind releasing Dead or Alive Paradise for the PSP? Really, they've already completely localized this game, which is why there's the Chinese English language version, so all of the money has been spent. It's already too late to say, oh we're not going to release it in the west because of the possibility of sales. The only money they're saving by not releasing it in the west is licensing fees and whatever the cost is if they were to release retail versions. They're losing a lot more money than they'd be making because not everyone imports, and there are people who would pick this game up if they saw it at retail. Even selling at $20 they'd make more than the manufacturing cost and shipping of a single copy after the the store and Sony get their cut.

[Niku-Sama]

This doesn't seem about censorship any more. It seems like people are getting uppy about what other people like and don't like. We are all different, we all have differing views, opinions are what they are guys. If you don't agree you don't have to. Move on

[Mayhem]

Anyone seen Play Asia's Twitter feed on this? It's been quite hilarious... Gamergate Redux time...

https://twitter.com/playasia/status/669343456423100416?lang=en

[Zthun]

This doesn't seem about censorship any more. It seems like people are getting uppy about what other people like and don't like. We are all different, we all have differing views, opinions are what they are guys. If you don't agree you don't have to. Move on

Excellent. Someone finally said what I was trying to say, but got it across 10x more clear than I did. Thank you.

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm curious why the line is drawn where it is. People freak out whenever you talk about Australia banning Mortal Kombat but then DOA or random low budget lolicon game #443 comes out and everyone raises hell that it exists at all. Do games encourage bad behavior or don't they? It seems like we all owe Jack Thompson an apology.


Yeah on one hand fuck censorship.

On the other... it's DOA volleyball.

I think that part of being principled is being willing to defend victims that aren't sympathetic. It really shouldn't matter what game it is if the thought processes that are in play are irrational, panicky, and ultimately risky. After all, DOA is just a symptom. What's happening is that culturally we're starting to take a stand against bullying...by permitting other kinds of bullying. For all the talk of tolerance that goes on, if somebody falls outside of the "right" way of thinking then its open season on them and suddenly it's perfectly ok to bully them into compliance. It's why South Park recently introduced PC Principal, intermixing the "SJW" with the stereotype of abrasive college frats. Shifting to a culture that normalizes the kind of mindset that essentially puts people in fear of producing an entertainment product due to potential backlash could lead to some seriously shitty things since that mindset won't always be localized to video games, and in fact hasn't.


The main appeal of games existing just to show hot women is pretty much over. It's not the 90's anymore, teen boys and adults have easy access to the internet now and can look at real women at any time for free.

I don't understand this, either. Sometimes fake things are awesome. I can see real police work by watching real cops but that doesn't render Die Hard obsolete. Engaging in fantasy can be fun. If people find something that interests them in DOA Volleyball then they shouldn't be judged solely on the grounds that "they aren't real women." It's like that one annoying guy who watches Looney Tunes with you and keeps saying "he could never survive that in real life."

[FieryReign]

Publicity stunt.

[TonyTheTiger]

Publicity stunt.
This did cross my mind. I wonder if the sales predictions were low enough that they decided against publishing it but wanted to preemptively deflect criticism from the die hard fans.

[PreZZ]

Is DOA sexist? yup. Fact is sex sells, always has and always will. No matter how hard feminism will try to get rid of it, it will ALWAYS be there, and a lot of women enjoy dressing in a provocative way and get males to look at them. Its in our DNA to attract/be attracted. Meanwhile, parents let their 6 year olds play GTA and COD online with headsets, they will learn what is teabaggin, racial comments etc. which is 10000x worse than chicks with big boobs in bikinis playing volleyball.

[TonyTheTiger]

Is DOA sexist? yup.
How? "Sexism" and "sexual" are not synonyms.

[PreZZ]

How? "Sexism" and "sexual" are not synonyms.
using women as sexual asset is sexist

[TonyTheTiger]

But they're not real people. That's kind of important. Besides, even if they were real like in a movie, there'd be nothing indicating the actors weren't willing participants.

[Tupin]

Man, if only Jack Thompson had started pitching a fit a decade later. He'd find many people to work with in the industry who would support creative gag orders. It may not be exactly censorship, but fear of creating/doing something because of reactions of your peers is something that creatives shouldn't have to work with.

Between this and the joke that was Konami at the Game Awards I'm amazed that people think the video game industry is maturing. Hollywood is probably laughing.

[kai123]

using women as sexual asset is sexist

I am glad someone is taking a stand for the rights of fictional female digital characters. They don't have a voice but we do! /s

[Daria]

It's a lighthearted sexy volleyball series about girls in tiny bathing suits playing volleyball. It's a fetish - not sexism.

I'm thinking the people offended by softcore porn games weren't going to buy it in the first place.

[Daria]

Japan is know for being behind western culture when it comes to equality for women in the home and workplace. You should check out some of the forced rape games before you call Westerners censoring them disgusting.

Also FYI DOA Volleyball is made for 13 year old Japanese boys.

And "Fuck Censorship," Ugg I wish this forum had some more interesting "Fucking Ideas."

I'll say it - what's wrong with rape games? Think about it. It's the digital, totally safe, and ultimately consensual exploration of particular sexual fetish shared by men and women. Just because something is abhorrent to one sub-group of people doesn't make it inherently wrong. Real rape is disgusting, and evil. Fantasy rape is just an expression of individual sexuality. Once you start cherry picking concepts as being taboo you open up the argument to be applied to other thoughts, beliefs, and cultures that differ from what's socially acceptable. "Social Justice Warriors" don't promote equality, they just shift the intolerance around.

So yeah, I know I was on the "fuck censorship" band wagon previously, so he's an interesting fucking idea for you. ;)

[TonyTheTiger]

It's a form of bullying. "Share my interests and my repulsions or I'll shame you into silence or submission." The blurring the line between real and fiction is one part of that. By failing to acknowledge the difference, everything gets to become a moral battle. It's also myopic as hell. That's why a lot of people have to backpedal when Jack Thompson comes up. If they're right and certain fictional content shouldn't exist then what's not to say other fictional content shouldn't exist? You could theoretically extend the logic far enough to target any content you want.

[Aussie2B]

I've found this whole news story bizarre from the beginning. I didn't even find it very clear if the Facebook page where the comments were made was official or not, and the person making the comments spoke so casually and used such broken English that I found it hard to believe that they are an actual company representative. I guess my suspicion was somewhat founded, since if you check the news link now, it's been updated saying that an official company statement was made to say that the previous comments do not represent the company (though apparently the person is indeed an employee). The whole situation screams of shoddy journalism to me, with sites pouncing on the comments because it's a story that will stir the pot. Honestly, I see far more outcry AGAINST so-called "social justice warriors" these days than backlash against fanservice-y games like these.

Anyway, I can't claim to be super experienced with the series, but I don't find DOA (or the DOAX spin-off series) offensive or sexist. I don't have a problem with eye candy games existing. I only have a problem with hypocrites who have no problem with female eye candy but lose their shit if a male character is offered to female/gay gamers as eye candy. Now THAT mentality is sexist to me (and usually delves into homophobic territory too). The only thing about DOA that I've found tasteless were those awful commercials for them back in the day.

[TonyTheTiger]

I only have a problem with hypocrites who have no problem with female eye candy but lose their shit if a male character is offered to female/gay gamers as eye candy. Now THAT mentality is sexist to me (and usually delves into homophobic territory too). The only thing about DOA that I've found tasteless were those awful commercials for them back in the day.
I don't think it's necessarily hypocritical. You can't really strike a "balance" with fanservice like that in a single product without alienating somebody. Fanservice has as many narrative "rules" as any other component of a product. It all has to have a point and a goal. The shotgun effect, trying to appeal to multiple audiences, doesn't usually work, especially when something that appeals to one camp will repel the other, as is usually the case with sex appeal. A game (or anything for that matter) can't be something to everyone. Straight dudes looking to play a game filled with pretty girls are likely going to be put off if there's also a significant focus on handsome guys because they're straight and that's not what they want to see. There aren't any sinister motives there. No different than, say, a person who likes RPGs might be put off if there's a bunch of DDR style minigames peppered throughout. If you don't like DDR then suddenly that package loses value to you even if you enjoy the surrounding game.

[Aussie2B]

Oh, I don't mean balance is a necessity in all individual games. Every game has its own demographic, and it doesn't have to aim to appeal to everyone. What I mean are gamers who drool over sexy female characters, but whenever a game is clearly acting as eye candy for a group other than straight male gamers, all they can do is flip out and criticize and basically talk as if it shouldn't even be allowed to exist. That's the part that's hypocritical. I fully understand if that isn't appealing to straight male gamers and if they aren't interested in buying that kind of product, but if you welcome fanservice that targets your taste, then you sure as hell better accept the existence of fanservice-y games that targets other genders/sexualities. In other words, look at how straight male gamers react to otome, BL, and bara games.

But if a game/series has a broad demographic, balance should be pursued. Look at how over a decade later people still whine to high heaven about pretty boy Final Fantasy characters, despite that female gamers make up a sizable portion of the Final Fantasy fan base, and if the games include fanservice-y female characters (Tifa, Lulu, Fran, etc.), it's only fair and logical that the games would also include male characters who would be attractive to the female players.

Or look at Harvest Moon. It's a series that started off only offering a male playable character and female love interests, but it was popular among female gamers (who tend to be a hell of a lot more open-minded about controlling protagonists who don't represent them or their sexuality). So in time they offered alternate versions of the games where you can play as a female protagonist wooing bachelors, and eventually they incorporated both options into all releases. If they could just someday offer the option to woo either sex regardless of which gender you pick, they'd have all their bases covered. But overall the series has done a great job paying attention to its demographic and evolving to try to make everybody happy and treated equally.

[Tupin]

A lot of people say men act poorly to uber-masculinized/characters designed to appeal to women, but I've generally not seen that it's the case. I don't give a shit that looking like Kratos is impossible and I don't give a shit about the infamous Raiden level in MGS2 like a bunch of these people point out. I need to find the comic about this. It was a male character getting all upset at a female artist drawing female oriented sexualized male superheroes to "counteract" sexualization of female ones. Someone edited it to both him not caring because it's not designed to appeal to him (the reaction that people SHOULD be having to DOAX) or that she actually ends up drawing JoJo.

They're goddamned polygons, people. If polygons really have to exist to justify your personal identity, I'm pretty sure you're the one that has the issue, not the game or the people who make it. I worry with the advent of VR that every game is just going to slowly become a self-insert power fantasy and games will exist for no other reason than to bolster self esteem or something.

[Aussie2B]

Uh, but the uber-masculinized characters are virtually never designed to appeal to women. They're designed for male gamers, as power fantasies. They're supposed to be the badass that every guy supposedly wishes he could be. Same with comic book superheroes. Good luck finding a woman who finds Kratos hot because I've never come across one. You'd be more likely to find someone in the bara scene who finds him attractive. But I could point you towards countless women who swoon over the pretty boys in otome games.

Male characters in video games who are intended to be eye candy to women are virtually always pretty boys. This is all the more so for the fact that it's usually only Japanese games that offer fanservice-y male characters for female players, and what is considered attractive by the sexes in Japan is different from the Western norm. They're more likely to interpret a big muscular guy as gay than as eye candy for women.

[kai123]

Poor Jack Thompson if he would have only picked sexism instead of violence.

I replayed DOA 2 recently and it forced me to lose all respect for women everywhere. Stupid sexy polygons. DOA EQUALS MISOGYNY!! /s

[TonyTheTiger]

I need to find the comic about this. It was a male character getting all upset at a female artist drawing female oriented sexualized male superheroes to "counteract" sexualization of female ones. Someone edited it to both him not caring because it's not designed to appeal to him (the reaction that people SHOULD be having to DOAX) or that she actually ends up drawing JoJo.

Was it this?
http://orig06.deviantart.net/6d70/f/2014/258/9/6/tumblr_mtg09ciw4n1rq01f1o1_1280_by_honeybadgerradi o-d7zagcr.jpg

What's funny about this comic, though, is that the rebuttal on the bottom isn't even required. The comic's principal argument falls apart by it's own hypocrisy. She just replaced one idealized standard with another. I'm not sure what the comic's point is if it thinks that just applying an offset to the process "wins" the argument of objectification. Personally, I think the reason it's so sloppy is because it's arguing from a false premise. It's fiction. There are no victims to be objectified in the first place. It's all just a matter of people writing/drawing shit they think would be cool. The entire argument is nonsensical from the start.


Uh, but the uber-masculinized characters are virtually never designed to appeal to women. They're designed for male gamers, as power fantasies. They're supposed to be the badass that every guy supposedly wishes he could be.
Which could be the same for, say, Wonder Woman to girls, right? Or even the skinny Edward Cullen type heroes of anime who manage to take down bodybuilders in a single punch? Presumably those could be equally interpreted as power fantasies for skinny dudes? A lot of girls seem to dig Cloud Strife but isn't he oddly strong for a skinny kid? Seems like "power fantasy" material to me. Or, ya know, maybe it's none of those things and characters are just characters.

This is why I think this is a false dichotomy. Isolating character design into "sex appeal" or "power fantasy" is oversimplifying what the audience gets out of good characters in fiction. Plus it's easy to corrupt the argument to gain license to criticize one type of design while shielding another, hence my point above about the Batman design supposedly being "ok" compared to the traditional one. All one would have to do is posit that the design they dislike is sexist while dismissing the opposite gender equivalent as a "power fantasy." It lets people play a game of "heads I win, tails you lose."

All people, regardless of gender, like to look at pretty things. The specifics of the appeal might differ but nobody likes to look at shit that's ugly. You can see this everywhere. I don't know anybody who wants to have sex with Pikachu but the appeal of his design is obvious. Even "ugly" characters like Street Fighter's Blanka are still aesthetically pleasing. The idea that most men and women in fiction would be designed to accent human physiology and musculature is way too basic to attribute a "meaning."

[Aussie2B]

Characters don't just magically spring into existence. Every character has its purpose on the part of the creator. Some characters are supposed to be someone you wish you could be, some are supposed to be someone you wish you could bang, some are supposed to be comedic relief, some you're supposed to feel sympathy for, some you're supposed to hate, so on and so on.

The bottom line is that it's usually not hard to tell at all when a character is designed to titillate. Maybe because there are SOOOOO many female characters who are to act as eye candy, but women generally seem to be pretty adept at recognizing a sexualized character. But men often demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of what is designed to be attractive to women. Not what IS attractive to women, as women don't share a hive mind and tastes run the gamut, but what's DESIGNED to be. You can't simplify it down to just physical attributes but rather take in the whole picture. I mean, is Peach a cute, pretty character? Yes. But is she designed as eye candy for male gamers? Not really. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to see that there's a world of difference between Kratos or a comic book superhero and the covers of romance novels (and, by the way, traditional romance novels are most popular among women who are like 30+, whereas female gamers are mostly in their teens and 20s. Just look at boy bands if you don't understand the difference between what young women and older women typically find attractive. If you want muscular male characters who are designed as eye candy for young women, check out the anime Free! Then compare that to Kratos as well.) If you can't see things any more nuanced then "muscular chest = eye candy for women", then you really don't understand the concept of fanservice at all. Then you may as well say that Barbie games are eye candy for men.

Anyway, none of this matter much in terms of the topic. It doesn't make a character sexist just because they're designed as eye candy.

[TonyTheTiger]

It's silly to expect male creators to have a thorough grasp of what a female audience wants and vice versa. It's like if you were to ask a white dude to make a film that speaks to a black audience. At some point you just have to let people make the shit they want to make and if someone sees a market that is relatively untapped then they can get in on it and create shit themselves. Again, people are just making shit they think is cool.

Frankly, DOA is actually incredibly clever with how it approaches its material. It's not overt about it. They're just girls engaging in whatever the game's premise is (fighting, volleyball). For the most part, their outfits are regular clothes. It's surprisingly subtle which is probably what makes it work so well. I'd argue that they're actually not just about eye candy. There's a complete narrative there. It's kind of like Mortal Kombat with it's fatalities. The game is violent but the narrative is not specifically about the violence. It's more like world building. The DOA girls looking the way they do, or the MK fatalities being what they are, exist to establish the reality under which the games are operating. The audience has to believe in the world they're observing.

[Emperor Megas]

So then, am I the only one who always thought that the DOA girls looked sort of like animated blow up dolls?

[TonyTheTiger]

So then, am I the only one who always thought that the DOA girls looked sort of like animated blow up dolls?

A lot of people must have thought so since Tecmo decided to redesign everybody for DOA5. It's a huge improvement. That being said, DOA is really in a bind. It's like a magnet for the negative but no longer has exclusive dominion over the positives. Tekken got into the swimsuit thing recently but nobody really complains about it. All the stuff DOA does that used to set it apart is actually pretty mundane these days. But, at the same time, DOA still gets all the bad press whenever these issues arise. The series has watched other franchises take bites out of its playbook over the years while also being left to fend off the sharks whenever some charlatan chums the waters. I'm not really sure how to fix that.

[Gentlegamer]

http://rack.3.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzAzLzA3LzM0L3NleHkuNTQ1MzguZ2lmCnAJdGh1bW IJODUweDU5MD4KZQlqcGc/4d5b3e1b/2ca/sexy.jpg

[Gameguy]

And fake women, too. If you think about it though, if that's the case, what's their reasoning behind releasing Dead or Alive Paradise for the PSP? Really, they've already completely localized this game, which is why there's the Chinese English language version, so all of the money has been spent. It's already too late to say, oh we're not going to release it in the west because of the possibility of sales. The only money they're saving by not releasing it in the west is licensing fees and whatever the cost is if they were to release retail versions. They're losing a lot more money than they'd be making because not everyone imports, and there are people who would pick this game up if they saw it at retail. Even selling at $20 they'd make more than the manufacturing cost and shipping of a single copy after the the store and Sony get their cut.

I don't understand this, either. Sometimes fake things are awesome. I can see real police work by watching real cops but that doesn't render Die Hard obsolete. Engaging in fantasy can be fun. If people find something that interests them in DOA Volleyball then they shouldn't be judged solely on the grounds that "they aren't real women." It's like that one annoying guy who watches Looney Tunes with you and keeps saying "he could never survive that in real life."
I guess I should expand what I said to include all forms of actual pornography, including animated or drawn hentai. This is what I meant, but I didn't make it clear enough with what I wrote. If the main appeal of something is to ogle attractive women or portrayals of women, there's little reason to stop short of viewing actual pornography(real or animated/drawn) now as it's easily available.

As for sales of Dead or Alive Paradise for the PSP, they sucked hard. And it got terrible reviews, the gameplay was lousy. I doubt they would be eager to try releasing something again in the west. Of course there would still be people interested in the game, but that's a small niche market. This is created from a developer that expects big near blockbuster sales, a niche market is pretty much only appealing to smaller indie studios. It's completely understandable why this game wouldn't get a release in the west.

[TonyTheTiger]

I guess I should expand what I said to include all forms of actual pornography, including animated or drawn hentai. This is what I meant, but I didn't make it clear enough with what I wrote. If the main appeal of something is to ogle attractive women or portrayals of women, there's little reason to stop short of viewing actual pornography(real or animated/drawn) now as it's easily available.

One thing I firmly believe is that plot actually does matter in pornography. It's just that "plot" has a much wider definition than most people realize. If this weren't true then every nude photo would be the girl just standing there naked. The fancy poses and exotic environments all serve a purpose. Strippers dance and gradually remove clothing. They don't just walk out on stage naked and stand there like a statue. This is actually all a kind of storyline.

I think that any piece of entertainment, even super simple video games like Breakout, needs to have a narrative. The audience has to understand something about what's presented to them. Breakout doesn't have a story but it does have a narrative in that it communicates something to the player. The reason it's such a good game is because it communicates extremely well what it's all about. It's engaging. Porn works in much the same way. It has to engage the audience. I think a game like DOA does that for people just like many other games do. It performs that magic where the audience believes to some extent in the world that they're observing. DOA is actually really good at its narrative. It's coherent and consistent in its design philosophy. The characters mesh with their environments. The activities they engage in (fighting/volleyball) are believable within the context of the games. The tone is consistent throughout. Ultimately a player can play it and lose him or herself in the fantasy world. So if some of that audience chooses to lose themselves in that world for the purpose of masturbation then that's the narrative they're looking for at that moment. In fact, I'd argue that the fact that DOA is popular enough masturbation material to get a reputation as such despite not being pornography demonstrates how good a job it actually does at its narrative. That's some powerful world-building if people can fap to a game that doesn't even have any nudity.

But even with actual porn, people have specific tastes. Much in the same way you can't satisfy a person wanting to play Street Fighter by making them play Mortal Kombat even though they both fall under the umbrella of fighting games, you also can't just arbitrarily replace a particular pornographic narrative with another and expect the audience to be equally satisfied. Whatever it is about DOA that turns people on, that particular turn on is exclusive to DOA. So it does actually make sense to me that some people would specifically seek it out despite the amount of free porn available. Porn isn't a special class of entertainment. It plays by the same rules as any other medium.


As for sales of Dead or Alive Paradise for the PSP, they sucked hard. And it got terrible reviews, the gameplay was lousy. I doubt they would be eager to try releasing something again in the west. Of course there would still be people interested in the game, but that's a small niche market. This is created from a developer that expects big near blockbuster sales, a niche market is pretty much only appealing to smaller indie studios. It's completely understandable why this game wouldn't get a release in the west.

This actually adds to my suspicion that maybe this is all a preemptive defense against backlash from the die hard fans. If they have a scapegoat they can look like the victims despite never planning to localize the game to begin with.

[Gameguy]

Just clarifying things further, I was just talking about the Dead or Alive Xtreme games. Not the main fighting games. People like playing fighting games, that would generally be the main focus for those buying it, the style would make it more appealing than just a generic one like so many others are made. What I was talking about were the volleyball simulators which also included some other beach minigames. Is there a large demand for volleyball simulators as a genre? I don't think so. It was mostly an excuse to show off breast and ass jiggle physics. By making it adult oriented aimed towards men, they've also eliminated large sections of a potential audience like children and most women. From the info I can find online Dead or Alive Paradise for the PSP sold about 60,000 copies in North America. It doesn't help that it was on the PSP but that's still pretty low.

As for masturbation material, plenty of fan made porn exists for the Sonic games, Mario games, Street Fighter games, Final Fantasy games, Starfox games, etc. Basically every game ever made featuring a character, has some people obsessing over it in a sexual way. It could be extended to every medium, not just games. Most of these weren't intended to be viewed that way, but people still ended up fantasizing this stuff into existence. To say that Dead or Alive managed to achieve the same thing by having a well done narrative is a bit of a stretch.

Keep in mind, this is what got a lot of people to buy the original Tomb Raider game. Back when a lot of teens didn't have easy access to the internet, or their own computers to access it in private. It's a game that was pushed for the graphics more so than the gameplay. Now that the graphics don't hold up well, few people would still want to play it as the controls are awful. At least there's an actual game behind it, but not one I want to bother with. I'm really not big on 3D games as it is.

http://i63.tinypic.com/33tpmyr.png

That all said, I don't buy games because of the sexual attractiveness of the characters in them. It's the same with TV shows or anime, anything that's meant to be taken more seriously. Look at most of the dramas on TV today. There's no average or ugly people in them, at least not with the women. I just can't get into them because they're not realistic enough for me, I doubt most police departments have a "you must be at least this good looking to work here" policy. I notice most modern british shows don't seem have this problem, they seem to focus on quality writing and realistic acting. With anime, most modern stuff doesn't interest me because it seems it's mostly aimed at Otakus. Why is the camera focusing in on her ass or chest? Or why so often or for so long? For a lot of shows it doesn't seem to be for a quick one-off joke, so how is this related to the plot or character development? I want them to make me like or care about the character for who they are as a whole, not make me want to bang them. No matter what it is it's all a crutch to sell their creation more easily and it's lazy as hell. I feel a lot of people feel the same way, more people are cancelling their TV subscription service than ever before and anime is once again becoming a niche market compared to how mainstream it was in the early 2000's. It used to be everywhere in almost every retailer, now if you can find a retailer carrying it it's just a small section.

[Aussie2B]

I think a lot of people are just moving on from the desire to own hard copies of shows/movies, just as they've largely done with music. Especially among the anime fan base, which has a pretty young demographic on the whole who are more accepting of going digital-only, which also has the significant advantage of being available practically as soon as Japan sees it. Lots of people are satisfied well enough just with streaming services like Crunchyroll.

Anyway, getting back on topic, I do have to give DOAX some credit for actually being fairly logical about its fanservice given the setting and activities involved. That's far, far better than fanservice and sexualized characters just shoehorned in awkwardly.

[TonyTheTiger]

As for masturbation material, plenty of fan made porn exists for the Sonic games, Mario games, Street Fighter games, Final Fantasy games, Starfox games, etc. Basically every game ever made featuring a character, has some people obsessing over it in a sexual way. It could be extended to every medium, not just games. Most of these weren't intended to be viewed that way, but people still ended up fantasizing this stuff into existence. To say that Dead or Alive managed to achieve the same thing by having a well done narrative is a bit of a stretch.
Yeah, but all that other material is produced outside of the games. The Sonic, Mario, etc. franchises don't inherently provide a universe that fulfills people's sexual appetites. All that comes from the fan side. DOA, meanwhile, appears to provide all that within the boundaries of the franchise. At least that's the impression I get. I'm not a DOA player myself so, full disclosure, I'm not an expert on the subject.


Anyway, getting back on topic, I do have to give DOAX some credit for actually being fairly logical about its fanservice given the setting and activities involved. That's far, far better than fanservice and sexualized characters just shoehorned in awkwardly.
Bingo. I think that one thing about video games is that a game's mechanics and its conceit have to come simultaneously. You can't ask a player to stop his or her progress just for the sake of providing some fanservice (sexual or otherwise) and expect it not to kind of piss off the player. Think of the unskippable cutscene nonsense a lot of RPGs pull. DOA's conceit is perfectly in line with the tasks the player is asked to perform. It's a beach with beach stuff. All the fanservice is just an extrapolation of that concept. I think of it like Baywatch. Baywatch was actually a really clever show because of how natural it was. It didn't force its fanservice down your throat at the expense of the surrounding story. It was essentially an adventure show that just so happened to star lifeguards.

[otaku]

if it was strictly sales based decision that makes sense and I suppose even if based on our current cultural standing it makes sense. I for one hate where our culture is headed. Being a white male or a male of any kind is a nightmare these days and people are so sensitive about language. I'm sick of walking on eggshells around everyone. You shouldn't have to apologize all the time or give disclaimers with everything. My current girlfriend left her ex for this reason the man couldn't take a joke and was offended by so much it drove her nuts. That said I find myself being accused of sexism because I believe in traditional roles for myself am I fine with cooking and cleaning and all that in the home yes. Do I prefer to drive though when we go somewhere? Yes. I feel like a man living in the wrong time and am often told by people my age that I am like an old man. Given what men used to be I take it as a compliment what we have now are a bunch of overly sensitive children who need to grow up and be men. I work with far too many guys who don't own cars but have tricked out computers and consoles, who can't fix their cars or anything for that matter. Men who abandon their children and wives. I have largely given up on society but I'll be damned if I give up on who I am and my values for it

[Emperor Megas]

I'm a guy who doesn't drive and has consoles. Not tricked out ones, but still. I get most of what you're saying, but I don't understand why having a car is that big a deal. Especially if there's public transportation or someone else who drives in the household. I just really hate driving. *shrugs*

[Graham Mitchell]

I don't get it. What does this one do that the other entries in the series don't that makes it so heinous? Why are people complaining about this now and not 15 years ago?

[The 1 2 P]

I don't get it. What does this one do that the other entries in the series don't that makes it so heinous? Why are people complaining about this now and not 15 years ago?

The world is a much different place than it was 15 years ago. Same sex marriage is now legal, cops are finally held accountable for shooting and killing unarmed people and video games about skimpily dressed girls playing beach volley ball will steal your soul. Actually I think that last one has more to do with the PC change in attitudes we have towards everything these days. But it's still been one hell of a marketing trick for a game that's supposedly not going to release over here in the US.

[Graham Mitchell]

The world is a much different place than it was 15 years ago. Same sex marriage is now legal, cops are finally held accountable for shooting and killing unarmed people and video games about skimpily dressed girls playing beach volley ball will steal your soul. Actually I think that last one has more to do with the PC change in attitudes we have towards everything these days. But it's still been one hell of a marketing trick for a game that's supposedly not going to release over here in the US.

Meanwhile the porn industry gets a pass. And video games depicting torture scenes don't even raise an eyebrow.

[The 1 2 P]

Well real porn almost always gets a free pass provided it stays in the hands and viewing area of adults. It's only when there are sex scenes depicted in video games or books when people decide to get up and arms about porn because they are completely misinterpreting the video games or books in question. But I agree with you about the torture scenes. And this is of course due to the culture over here in the US. Depictions of violence are much more accepted here than other places so it's one of the last things people are going to go after unless there's something very recent in the media spotlight like another mass school shooting or terrorist attack.