Opinion: "Custom"/"modded"/"hacked" devalues it

[gbpxl]

I know that I've talked about this before, but due to the fact that every year, more and more game systems, cartridges and accessories get butchered in order to "modernize" them, the fewer unadultered, virgin, original pieces of hardware there are on the marketplace. A real collector, i.e. someone who has the money, is not going to seek out systems with modified screens, or "new pin connectors" new A/V ports, custom LED lights, etc. They want ORIGINAL and functional equipment. And secondary to that, they want functional equipment with minimal replaced parts just to get it actually working.

I saw an ad for an original arcade machine that said something to the effect of "new LCD that replaces the old outdated CRT". Ummm... isn't the game itself "outdated?" Have you ever played an arcade machine with a modded LCD display? It looks like absolute garbage!! Like you'd rather stick knives in your eyes than look at it.

Now... if the screen is dead and there is zero option for replacing it with the same size CRT tube, fine. Put in an LCD. But that is a last resort. Keep it true to the feeling of playing the game in 1989.

Agree/disagree?

[Gameguy]

I pretty much just want original unmodified systems, I avoid altered ones like NES systems with new connectors. The exceptions are systems with mod chips like PS1s or PS2s, those would be more monetarily valuable modified. I still would want unmodified systems too but the modified ones in that case would be useful to have as well.

[calthaer]

On the one hand, I wouldn't want someone who cut up an older console to add new audio / video outputs.

On the other, the new pin connectors on the NES look and function exactly the same. It's a replacement part - my old one was so corroded the thing wouldn't work. I want a working system, not a brick. Even classic cars need to have their hose lines and rusted mufflers replaced from time to time.

[Gameguy]

I can't trust new NES connectors to be good quality as so many companies make replacements and none have their manufacturing names on them. As I don't trust them I just stay away from them entirely. This isn't the same as replacing capacitors or a voltage regulator, it's more like replacing the stock rear view mirror in a vintage car with a modern generic replacement, some things really need to be kept OEM.

I do clean the OEM connectors with a good cleaning kit and they work like new. Most people don't do this.

[gbpxl]

I can't trust new NES connectors to be good quality as so many companies make replacements and none have their manufacturing names on them. As I don't trust them I just stay away from them entirely. This isn't the same as replacing capacitors or a voltage regulator, it's more like replacing the stock rear view mirror in a vintage car with a modern generic replacement, some things really need to be kept OEM.

I do clean the OEM connectors with a good cleaning kit and they work like new. Most people don't do this.

I agree with all of this.

[Edmond Dantes]

I personally care more about the device functioning than I do about how much of it is genuine OEM parts.

If I ever get a Game Gear again, you can bet I'm gonna get one with a new screen and replaced capacitors, because I don't want issues. I just want games to work.

[Gameguy]

The main reason why I only want original connectors for the NES is because almost all replacement ones are crap that break down in mere months or damage carts with a death grip. Repairing a console to be functional is perfectly fine, I just don't want it repaired with poor quality parts. It's like with replacing save batteries in carts, I want it done right, not just have the cheapest leak-prone batteries taped in with electrical tape. Obviously new capacitors are needed for repairs, but these are made by various companies and you can easily choose quality trusted ones over the cheapest poor quality ones as they're all marked by the manufacturers and quality ones are well known among the people who use them.

Of course when you buy a used system already repaired you can't be sure how well the repair actually was performed. Lots of people when replacing caps in Game Gears and other consoles are starting to use tantalum caps instead of the original electrolytic type capacitors as tantalum ones have a longer life and won't leak, unfortunately the circuitry is designed to use electrolytic caps so when those tantalum caps eventually fail the console will be damaged as the circuitry isn't protected for that type of failure, it will damage irreplaceable chips when it fails. I know someone who told me he paid around $80 to have the caps replaced in his Game Gear with tantalum caps, I just hope in 20 years the system won't just die beyond repair. Atari 2600 consoles are around 40 years old now and are usually still working, I'm really hoping consoles from the 90's can still make it that long as well.

As another example, talk to car mechanics. There are plenty of cheaper aftermarket parts that they will gladly use as replacements as they're just as good or even better than OEM, like with brake pads and rotors. But they know certain aftermarket parts aren't good quality and will stick to OEM parts instead as certain aftermarket parts are junk and will fail quickly, leading to unhappy customers demanding the issues be fixed again. It depends on what needs replacing.

With original NES connectors, the various used systems I've got over the years have been cleaned by me with a certain cleaning kit I find better than the original Nintendo ones. How do I start my games? I insert the cartridge, press down, and press the power button. Games start up right away about 8/10 times, and when it doesn't then a quick adjustment and a reset usually gets it to start up. The few times it doesn't start immediately are because the connectors are worn or dirty on the cartridge I'm trying to play, I don't spend minutes struggling to get games to boot except for really poor condition carts that aren't just needing to be cleaned. I try to avoid beat up games like this anyway when possible. I don't understand why so many people are still struggling with these connectors as they're far more reliable than the aftermarket ones.

[leatherrebel5150]

Of course when you buy a used system already repaired you can't be sure how well the repair actually was performed. Lots of people when replacing caps in Game Gears and other consoles are starting to use tantalum caps instead of the original electrolytic type capacitors as tantalum ones have a longer life and won't leak, unfortunately the circuitry is designed to use electrolytic caps so when those tantalum caps eventually fail the console will be damaged as the circuitry isn't protected for that type of failure, it will damage irreplaceable chips when it fails. I know someone who told me he paid around $80 to have the caps replaced in his Game Gear with tantalum caps, I just hope in 20 years the system won't just die beyond repair. Atari 2600 consoles are around 40 years old now and are usually still working, I'm really hoping consoles from the 90's can still make it that long as well.
.

I don't understand why your worried about this? Tantalum caps ARE electrolytic caps just designed a little different. The only time I could see it being a concern is in maybe something like a regulated power supply where your concerned about very specific ESR values. Other than that the only concern anyone ahould have with Tantalum is that they cost more.

[gbpxl]

*you're

[Gameguy]

I don't understand why your worried about this? Tantalum caps ARE electrolytic caps just designed a little different. The only time I could see it being a concern is in maybe something like a regulated power supply where your concerned about very specific ESR values. Other than that the only concern anyone ahould have with Tantalum is that they cost more.
From what I've read, tantalum caps fail as a short circuit while the electrolytic caps I've mentioned usually just fail open. That short circuit can damage components or potentially cause physical damage to the circuit board.

[gbpxl]

Whenever I replace something in a car or console or anything else I try to get as close to the original as I can

[kupomogli]

I pretty much just want original unmodified systems, I avoid altered ones like NES systems with new connectors. The exceptions are systems with mod chips like PS1s or PS2s, those would be more monetarily valuable modified. I still would want unmodified systems too but the modified ones in that case would be useful to have as well.

Someone recently found how you can run content on an unmodded PS2.

https://kotaku.com/ps2-hack-runs-games-on-burned-dvd-discs-no-mod-chip-re-1844197947

[Rickstilwell1]

Modded systems can be cool, but then I end up wanting both a modded and unmodded copy of each system. For example I like my new backlit DMG Game Boy, but I still keep a couple unmodded DMGs too. I have no reason to buy any HDMI modded consoles because I also collected enough CRTs to probably last me a lifetime. If I want to run something on HDMI why not just use an emulation based system like a modded classic mini or my laptops?

[Gameguy]

Someone recently found how you can run content on an unmodded PS2.

https://kotaku.com/ps2-hack-runs-games-on-burned-dvd-discs-no-mod-chip-re-1844197947
That's really neat, I think I heard about this earlier but didn't look too much into it then. While it does work, it hasn't been made for every PS2 firmware version so it's not entirely practical, at least not yet. And it's about 15 years too late so using a mod chip or soft modded memory card is already the most accepted options.

I also didn't know the PS4 dropped CD support so that's something new I learned. It kind of sucks as the console is less functional now. I would want as much compatibility available as possible, I personally use CDs more than Blu Rays.


Modded systems can be cool, but then I end up wanting both a modded and unmodded copy of each system.
That's what I do. I own several PS1 and PS2 consoles, I usually just use the modded systems just for homebrew or translations, I don't want to wear out the lasers when I could just use stock systems for normal games.

I wouldn't mind modded handhelds with added backlights like the GBA, Gameboy Color, and Gameboy Pocket, etc. I just never wanted to pay much for these as the GBA SP is already backlit. Finding modded PS1s and PS2s for cheap wasn't too bad around 10 years ago. I still prefer keeping systems original as much as possible, especially with more rare consoles like the Nomad. Repairs are different than mods.

[jperryss]

I'm fine with internal upgrades as long as they are done properly and cleanly. I have four RGB-modded consoles and they all look completely original on the outside. I also added power LEDs to my AV Famicom and SNES Jr.

As for "real collectors", who cares? For every so-called collector there are dozens of real gamers happily paying premiums for modded hardware. And it's not like unmolested versions of these consoles are hard to find.

[gbpxl]

not hard to find right now. gets harder and harder each year though. good luck finding a virgin NES in 2030

[Niku-Sama]

i've got a closet full

i think it depends on the console, if theres a known problem and theres a mod out there to fix like to the vectrex hum, then i dont think it hurts value but i also dont think it makes it much more valuable if at all.

My NES toploader i bought not working and it had a roasted PPU, i scored a working replacement off of a lone bare NES toaster board to stick in the top loader, with a socket just in case. is it modified, technically. is it worth any more, well again technically because it works now. i dont think it would hurt the value either if any one asks, sure the PPU is in the socket now but again, it works where as before when i got it, it didnt.

i can make other examples of this but i dont feel the need

[Gameguy]

It really depends on the situation, there's plenty of common failures where some mods are needed to actually repair an item as there are high failure rates with stock hardware. It's like this a lot with vintage computers, like adding heat sinks to RAM chips or installing sockets so future repairs will be much easier, replacing stock ROM chips with eproms as original replacements aren't available(I still don't like this if an original can be tracked down), or adding additional circuitry to protect components from surges or other poor engineering problems when originally built.

It's a bit different compared to modifying the video or audio output to run in ways completely different from the original outputs. Again it's just a personal preference of mine.

I've seen some people complain about the Genesis having horrible sound quality compared to the SNES, and playing a game on an emulator or aftermarket system as an example to show others. In the example, it really sounded like crap, but I have the same game and on actual original hardware it sounds nothing like that at all. So various people are agreeing with this person on how awful the Genesis sound really is based on that, and it's unfair because I know it's wrong because of the hardware being used. This is why I'm big on original hardware so much.

[gbpxl]

there is a wide range of sound quality among the many revisions of the Genesis

[Gameguy]

there is a wide range of sound quality among the many revisions of the Genesis
That's true, but none of the official systems have the sound completely broken with missing sections of the music and added random beeps inserted instead.

There are actual mods to fix the audio on some Sega Genesis variants too actually.

[Bighab]

I run my classic system on a Sony WEGA CRT so I have no reason to mod them for newer TV's. But I totally understand why most people do since not a lot of people have CRT's hanging around. Some mods are a big improvement to the system. I got an LCD screen mod for my Sega Nomad and love it. Well worth getting done if you have one.

[gbpxl]

I would say that almost everyone who still plays old videongames has a CRT

[Mangar]

For a legitimate "rare" console - I imagine mods would lessen the value. However, it would have to be rare. For just basic older consoles, I am 100% positive that my A/V modded Colecovision increases it's value. I'd say the same for other modded consoles that add video enhancements or quality of life features. I already own a Vectrex, but were I to buy another one - I'd pay extra for one that had the mod to eliminate the buzzing noise.

With that said: I'd have ZERO interest in a Vectrex that had the buzzing mod, and was painted purple, with modified LED lights built into the sides. It simply depends on the mod.

[YoshiM]

For a legitimate "rare" console - I imagine mods would lessen the value. However, it would have to be rare. For just basic older consoles, I am 100% positive that my A/V modded Colecovision increases it's value. I'd say the same for other modded consoles that add video enhancements or quality of life features. I already own a Vectrex, but were I to buy another one - I'd pay extra for one that had the mod to eliminate the buzzing noise.

With that said: I'd have ZERO interest in a Vectrex that had the buzzing mod, and was painted purple, with modified LED lights built into the sides. It simply depends on the mod.

Even then, that'd be in the eyes of the buyer. If I had the liquid money, I'd rather have the Ben Heck repaired Nintendo Playstation rather than the original working one.

It's going to get to the point where any piece of electronics, well ANY vintage piece, will wear out. I guess it all depends on the type of item and the circumstance. An original draft of say Shakespear's works would be priceless BUT would be brittle, so one would attempt to copy it so the copy could be shared and the original preserved for historical value and reference. Clothing from British royals are preserved which can be looked at for historical purposes but is impractical to be worn.

Vidro games are in a weird place: they are physical artifacts yet require play to truly experience it. If it's not working, the purpose of it is lost-it's a hunk of plastic and dead silicon. That'd be like having a Model T car sitting in a room without its engine. Or a 80's era Firebird like my wife has. It looks great but its value is that of parts due to a cylinder not rising. If it ran cherry, it'd be a whole lot more valuable.

It comes around to the owner or buyer-do you want something that works with original parts, even knowing that eventually those parts will fail? If yes, are you okay with having a lump of useless plastic and silicon?

Art (like painting and sculptures) is for looking at and contemplation. Video games are for looking at, listening to, experiencingband then contemplation (if you are so inclined), IMHO.

[Gameguy]

I would say that almost everyone who still plays old videongames has a CRT
Not necessarily. I'd say almost everyone who collects old video games would have a CRT. If someone just plays old games, there's a good chance the games would just be emulated on a modern HDTV using a modded console or a PC. If someone doesn't have room for a CRT, even a small 13" CRT, why would they still have room for original hardware and games? Unless they just collect handhelds and a TV isn't needed at all.


It comes around to the owner or buyer-do you want something that works with original parts, even knowing that eventually those parts will fail? If yes, are you okay with having a lump of useless plastic and silicon?
Restoration, preservation, and conservation are all different from alterations and modifications. There will be differences in untouched museum pieces and practical working systems, but the type of repair or restoration work still matters. But like you said, I expect eventually that all these electronics will stop working and will no longer be playable. I hope I won't have to deal with that myself but if so I'll probably be done with the hobby. For all we know eventually broadcast systems will change so old consoles won't be compatible with modern TVs or displays at all, even with modding the output. It's already difficult with the most modern displays available being 8K, just imagine an NES being upscaled to that resolution. Lightgun games already aren't compatible with modern monitors.

With restoring old radios the capacitors regularly need to be replaced. The original capacitors are usually hollowed out and the replacement is carefully fit inside so it looks like nothing was changed. Just to get it working you can just remove the old one completely, but it's not considered to be the right way to do this within the hobby. The way it's restored does matter if it holds any value.

Even with vintage cars that are extremely valuable, if they need repainting they would need to be repainted in the original colour or at least in one of the original colours offered by the dealer at the time of original manufacturing. Just picking any colour you want would affect the value.


Art (like painting and sculptures) is for looking at and contemplation. Video games are for looking at, listening to, experiencingband then contemplation (if you are so inclined), IMHO.
When paintings need restoration or conservation work, the work has to be performed in very specific ways to not negatively affect the value of the painting. Any type of modern restorative work needs to be completely reversible, the painting should be able to be brought back to original condition and have all work removed if desired.

[gbpxl]

I remember watching a special about how they were restoring the Mona Lisa. pretty interesting

my original point was that repairing is fine, but "upgrading" is lame.

[jperryss]

my original point was that repairing is fine, but "upgrading" is lame.

Just like with cars, there is a market for original/unrestored, restored to factory spec, AND upgraded/restomodded examples. A properly-done console mod will always increase the value for the right buyer, and there are plenty of those right buyers on eBay and in gaming groups.

CRTs can be a big hassle for people that want a decent gaming experience. An unmodded NES looks and play like butt on a modern display, but good CRTs are inconvenient and difficult to find compared to even five years ago. They are heavy and ugly, and many of them have burn-in or worn tubes that cannot be restored. CRTs require a dedicated space for classic gaming since you can't or wouldn't want to connect anything modern to it. Modern TV stands aren't designed for CRTs, so even if you find one strong enough, any CRT over 20" diagonal will hang off of the back. You can't put unshielded speakers close to a CRT without causing purity issues. Unless you're using a pro monitor like a PVM/BVM, adjusting things like geometry and convergence is a big hassle. And what do you do when your CRT stops working? Nobody repairs them anymore. I'm in MA and the closest reputable CRT shop is 5 hours away in NY. I can't exactly throw it in a box and ship it out to be repaired.

Get a modern TV set up the way you want it, and you'll likely have many trouble-free years of use. Have a CRT professionally calibrated and within 5 years you'll start seeing edge and corner geometry problems as the caps gradually drift out of spec.

My 28" RGB CRT monitor is basically new and was just pulled out of its original packaging last year. The picture on this tube rivals the best NOS arcade monitors that I've used, and it accepts RGB SCART input. It'd be foolish to suffer with composite just because that is the best that Nintendo offered 30+ years ago, so I standardized all of my consoles with RGB output. Even if my CRT released its factory-installed smoke tomorrow, I still enjoy the benefits of those upgrades because I've simplified the process of integrating an OSSC and moving everything to my OLED. And if I eventually cheese out and just decide to go with emulation, I could easily sell and recoup my original investment on every one of these mods.

[YoshiM]

I remember watching a special about how they were restoring the Mona Lisa. pretty interesting

my original point was that repairing is fine, but "upgrading" is lame.

It's all subjective and individual. I love playing NES, Atari 2600 and N64 on my 13" RCA from the 2000's. If my Commodore monitor worked better, I'd use that too (it whines, which drives my second eldest nuts). But if the day comes when those TVs die and I can't get a rrplacement, then it's either mod city, FPGA or finally emulation.

I'll take authenticity in play when I can but I won't dump play for a particular system when I can't.

[Gameguy]

Eventually people will miss various defects because of nostalgia. Like the Vectrex buzz, I'm sure to some people that's what they want to hear in the background as that's what they remember it sounding like.

Many old games were programmed to take advantage of the flaws with composite input, like dithering blending together colours and using similar effects for transparencies, shadows, or other techniques. The games will still play on other displays or with much improved video output, but you might end up missing some intended details. Much like looking at the original Mona Lisa and seeing the brush strokes and layers of paint, compared to a poster print of the Mona Lisa sold in the gift shop. Eventually there might not be a way around it as original hardware will all fail eventually. Like old LCD displays starting to separate between layers and leak. It'll all be gone eventually.

Personally I will avoid getting an OLED TV at all costs. Those are highly susceptible to burn in and the whites turn yellow in very little time, my phone has an OLED display and while I watch internet videos on it for convenience the display quality is now pretty weak with plenty of burn in and inaccurate colours. It conserves battery life which is good for a phone but for a home monitor I'm not concerned about that level of energy reduction.

[gbpxl]

Just like with cars, there is a market for original/unrestored, restored to factory spec, AND upgraded/restomodded examples. A properly-done console mod will always increase the value for the right buyer, and there are plenty of those right buyers on eBay and in gaming groups.

CRTs can be a big hassle for people that want a decent gaming experience. An unmodded NES looks and play like butt on a modern display, but good CRTs are inconvenient and difficult to find compared to even five years ago. They are heavy and ugly, and many of them have burn-in or worn tubes that cannot be restored. CRTs require a dedicated space for classic gaming since you can't or wouldn't want to connect anything modern to it. Modern TV stands aren't designed for CRTs, so even if you find one strong enough, any CRT over 20" diagonal will hang off of the back. You can't put unshielded speakers close to a CRT without causing purity issues. Unless you're using a pro monitor like a PVM/BVM, adjusting things like geometry and convergence is a big hassle. And what do you do when your CRT stops working? Nobody repairs them anymore. I'm in MA and the closest reputable CRT shop is 5 hours away in NY. I can't exactly throw it in a box and ship it out to be repaired.

Get a modern TV set up the way you want it, and you'll likely have many trouble-free years of use. Have a CRT professionally calibrated and within 5 years you'll start seeing edge and corner geometry problems as the caps gradually drift out of spec.

My 28" RGB CRT monitor is basically new and was just pulled out of its original packaging last year. The picture on this tube rivals the best NOS arcade monitors that I've used, and it accepts RGB SCART input. It'd be foolish to suffer with composite just because that is the best that Nintendo offered 30+ years ago, so I standardized all of my consoles with RGB output. Even if my CRT released its factory-installed smoke tomorrow, I still enjoy the benefits of those upgrades because I've simplified the process of integrating an OSSC and moving everything to my OLED. And if I eventually cheese out and just decide to go with emulation, I could easily sell and recoup my original investment on every one of these mods.

what kind of RGB CRT do you have? I just bought a Sony 2530. I'm picking it up next week

[jperryss]

Eventually people will miss various defects because of nostalgia. Like the Vectrex buzz, I'm sure to some people that's what they want to hear in the background as that's what they remember it sounding like.

Many old games were programmed to take advantage of the flaws with composite input, like dithering blending together colours and using similar effects for transparencies, shadows, or other techniques. The games will still play on other displays or with much improved video output, but you might end up missing some intended details. Much like looking at the original Mona Lisa and seeing the brush strokes and layers of paint, compared to a poster print of the Mona Lisa sold in the gift shop. Eventually there might not be a way around it as original hardware will all fail eventually. Like old LCD displays starting to separate between layers and leak. It'll all be gone eventually.

Personally I will avoid getting an OLED TV at all costs. Those are highly susceptible to burn in and the whites turn yellow in very little time, my phone has an OLED display and while I watch internet videos on it for convenience the display quality is now pretty weak with plenty of burn in and inaccurate colours. It conserves battery life which is good for a phone but for a home monitor I'm not concerned about that level of energy reduction.

As for composite, the waterfall dithering in Sonic 1 and 2 is the most well-known example. I've switched back and forth to composite to see the effect, so I know what I'm missing, but for me it's not worth the hit to visual quality when Genesis RGB looks so good.

As for OLED, you can't really compare a phone with a TV. Even if you were using your TV exclusively for gaming, your phone has more static elements on the screen so of course it will be more susceptible to burn-in. A phone is also packed more tightly with components that run hot during use and that's probably not great for the display.
If you're using your TV for a mix of TV/movies/gaming, and use the anti-burn features that are available in modern OLEDs (like pixel refresh, pixel shift, etc) the risk of burn-in is fairly low. We are approaching two years with our LG, 4-6 hours total use per day including occasional 4:3 content, and the picture still looks as vibrant and clear as the day we bought it with no visible burn.

[jperryss]

what kind of RGB CRT do you have? I just bought a Sony 2530. I'm picking it up next week

Nice find. The PVM-2530 is an older model (89-95ish I think) but one of only a couple of >20" pro models out there. It doesn't have an OSD so most picture adjustments will require opening the case and fiddling with pots. I've used the smaller 2030 and they've got a great image when setup properly.

I am using a Seleco 28" wall monitor. This isn't my pic, but it looks exactly like this (https://i.redd.it/isj6cxnsj2i31.jpg). Last year some guy landed on a lot of 10-20 of them in their original boxes that his company bought, but never used. I bought two from him, one worked perfectly and the other wouldn't power on.

[gbpxl]

Nice find. The PVM-2530 is an older model (89-95ish I think) but one of only a couple of >20" pro models out there. It doesn't have an OSD so most picture adjustments will require opening the case and fiddling with pots. I've used the smaller 2030 and they've got a great image when setup properly.

I am using a Seleco 28" wall monitor. This isn't my pic, but it looks exactly like this (https://i.redd.it/isj6cxnsj2i31.jpg). Last year some guy landed on a lot of 10-20 of them in their original boxes that his company bought, but never used. I bought two from him, one worked perfectly and the other wouldn't power on.
People are saying the 2030 has better picture quality but I wanted a PVM where I can play split screen games and each player will actually have a decent sized screen to look at

[megasdkirby]

I rather keep the console as is, with no modification.

HOWEVER, if a mod acts like a repair and makes the condole work again, I'm all for it. For example, if I find an NES console that has a damaged main board, then I am ok with getting an reproduction mainboard, and replace all components there. That way, the console works again wiyh many of the original parts.