WARNING!! M$ Xbox Remote Data Deletion.. careful

[Raedon]

Got a modded Xbox? Are you hooked up the net? According to this article (http://xbox-linux.sourceforge.net/docs/remotedelete.html), Microsoft has been remotely deleting data without asking end users. At least they just deleted the content... I could see Bill Gates busting in Simpsons style and ruffing you up!

[Ed Oscuro]

It would've helped to learn what files were deleted. Linux itself wasn't touched, so the deletion was probably accidental.

On that note, MS could easily argue that hooking up to Live and accessing their servers means accepting what happens. I can't fully explain the rationale they would use since I don't understand it, but he made a choice to connect. Since the file deletion wasn't malicious, could it therefore be no different from the same person in the EU accessing Windows Update and complaining that it deleted some of their files (though I'm not aware of Windows Update actually doing that for backup reasons, it certainly modifies what files your PC uses and adds new data).

[YoshiM]

I have MechAssault, but not the manual. Can anyone state if the manual mentions automatic updates to the software? If the manual states that the game will check for updates, the dude should have (and I hardly ever use this) RTFM and it would have spelled it out in black and white that MA would do this.

I haven't played MA yet, so I'm going to check my system to see if there is an Xbox Live thing there and I'll respond later as it's LUUUUNNNNCH TIMMMMME!

[Raedon]

hmm.. not sure if you guys read threw the whole article..

1) he hit Xbox live by mistake and didn't get a dialog box asking if he would like to update.. it just did it.. Windows update gives you that choice.

2) He is in Germany where there are laws in place to protect from this sort of thing.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'd appreciate it if you didn't insult me, Raedon. I did read through the whole thing and have a fairly good grounding in legal matters. I think it's not too hard for Microsoft to argue here that connecting to Live is another choice he made, just as you might choose to connect to Windows Update. I think that pursuing this case, as our writer seems to threaten, would be overly zealous, not to mention hard grounds to prove an "invasion." There's little doubt in my mind that the data deletion was not malicious seeing as it didn't delete his Linux install. If there was an intent to delete Linux related files, this is not made clear by the author. All he says is that "some files" were deleted off his C:, not ALL files of his creation. If he showed us that it specifically searched out Linux files, that'd be another matter.

You would do well to remember that sometimes Xbox hard drives have become corrupted and that local game outlets have discs to repair the files--by wiping and reinstalling files. This is probably not selective as the Live! related deletion appears to have been, but the Live! deletion probably serves another purpose altogether.

It is not a bad thing that this fellow has warned his fellow Linux modified Xbox users that Live may delete files off your hard drive, but the accusation that Microsoft has commited an illegal act is going overboard. Likewise, his failure to show what files were deleted only serves to allow unfounded speculation, instead of allowing people to make educated guesses as to why those files were deleted.

Oh, and Radeon...your use of "M$" reminds me of a certain Penny Arcade comic. Using this term, in my view, associates you with those who gleefully follow every misstep Microsoft makes, but assumes that the company somehow manages to insinuate its programming with malicious code intended to foil the plans of its adversaries.

[NE146]

guys... It just all goes back to the old Backups, Backups, backups idea.. Backup your data, and that includes your Xbox hdd contents :-D

[Raedon]

I'd appreciate it if you didn't insult me, Raedon. I did read through the whole thing and have a fairly good grounding in legal matters.


*weirded out!* O.o'
what are you talking about?


Oh, and Radeon...your use of "M$" reminds me of a certain Penny Arcade comic. Using this term, in my view, associates you with those who gleefully follow every misstep Microsoft makes, but assumes that the company somehow manages to insinuate its programming with malicious code intended to foil the plans of its adversaries.

I love it when Microsoft is in the news.. Espcially after I had to clean worms off 25 office computers last month because of the big security hole that XP is. :D

[Ed Oscuro]

Not to get too personal about it Raedon, but when I see the words "wonders if you guys read the article" I consider that an affront to my intelligence. Frankly, you put just a bit too much faith in this article. I hope the tendency to believe whatever's written on the internet is just a fad. Somebody thinks they've got a law to cover what they're mad about and suddenly it's fact. Like I said, though, it's good to know that this happened, but bad to say or believe that Microsoft is hurting people on purpose. The world just looks so much better when you stop trying to believe in the conspiracies too hard (there's enough stuff, even at Microsoft, to give you a headache without believing they're being shifty with Live! as well...)

[Raedon]

just pointing it out man.. -.-;

You are in need of some Xanax or Librium it seems. You have social anxiaty issues when you believe that someone is insulting you instead of just making a point about things that were ignored in an article. Your intelligence was never questioned lol.

[YoshiM]

Yep, I read the article. I also checked out Slashdot which covered it as well.

I ran MechAssault but there's no Xbox Live link on my dashboard. However I don't have my Xbox connected to the Internet so that could be the reason. As for access to XBL being "accidental", I need more info to find out how easy it really is to get to it.

The biggest gripe (beyond this one, which no one really griped about at /.) is that people who have their Xboxes modded using the MA/Agent Under Fire buffer underrun bug AND being on XBL. When they went onto XBL it updated their dashboard and patched the bug thus causing their machines to not boot into Linux. People were pretty much screaming and hollering but they forget that a) The Xbox is a game machine in MS's eyes, b)they don't recognize any "modifications" so could care less, and c)the XBL service probably has statements that say the service WILL be updated automatically as part of the deal. XBL is a service and to maintain the integrity and keep a level playing field for everyone they will patch the software. Since the Xbox is a game machine and Microsoft sees it as a dedicated piece of hardware, why would anyone want to say nay to the update? Answer: there is no reason-to refuse would mean the person doesn't play on Live, period.

So you have Linux installed. Microsoft could care less. They are only liable for damages when the system is used as it was intended-a video game system. It shouldn't even be considered a computer, even though it has all the parts to be one. In order to be used as a computer it has to be modified with either a software patch exploiting a system bug or by using a mod chip, neither of which Microsoft endorses or supports. Get Live, you have to follow the rules of their SERVICE just like Battle.Net, Everquest and any other service for online games.

As for the person whose machine was updated without being on Live, I can't answer for that. Again if anyone can peek into their MechAssault manual (I bought mine at BlockBuster, so no book) to see if it mentions anything about auto updates, that'd be great. The one thing that pops into my mind is why the heck he filled in his network information under the Xbox Live setting if he was never going to use it? Kinda like buying a rifle as decoration for your wall and loading it with bullets even though you don't go hunting. Okay, maybe that's not a good analogy but I think y'all get the point I'm trying to make. I'm under the impression that the Xbox Live option in the dashboard is set to automatically connect to a server when on the Internet. Makes sense, right? It also makes sense that it would look for software updates as the interface may change, making the old version possibly incompatible. Again, this is still a GAME SYSTEM-all it does is play games. So it automatically updates without intervention as there is no reason to prevent it. What would there be to damage other than game saves, settings, and soundtrack files, right? Yes I'm writing this with blinders on as that's how MS would see this.

I did page through the only Xbox Live Enabled game I own that I have a manual for and that's KOTOR. I noticed something I've never seen before in game manuals before: EULA's. KOTOR had one that looked pretty standard for computer software (with added "no matchmaking or multi player on unlicensed networks" which blew me away). Same with APEX (which has a section on the back of the case stating about agreeing to terms in instruction manual). Pirates: Legend of Black Cat, Gunvalkrie, and Morrowind do not have EULAs, just warranty and anti-piracy statements. Double checking other games: none of my GC games or my DC games have EULAs, even PSO Ver 2 (which I thought just might due to its online nature). I bet PS2 games are the same way. Sorry, EULAs are for computers. This kinda disgusts me that such things are floating over to a game consoles where they don't need to be.

My 5.75 zenny on this.

[Sylentwulf]

Just need to agree with Raedon on this one...

"hmm.. not sure if you guys read threw the whole article.."

That is in NO way shape, or form, from any angle or point of view or perspective insulting to anyone in any way. Of course, he COULD have spelled THROUGH right, but that's just nitpicking ;)

[NE146]

By the way, even Microsoft employees use "M$" a lot of times LOL

[Ed Oscuro]

Just need to agree with Raedon on this one...

"hmm.. not sure if you guys read threw the whole article.."

That is in NO way shape, or form, from any angle or point of view or perspective insulting to anyone in any way. Of course, he COULD have spelled THROUGH right, but that's just nitpicking ;)

Uh, perhaps to you. I find it insulting since it directly implies that I'm either talking out of my ass (happens sometimes, don't always look at what I'm talking about closely) or that they're dumb. Anyways, glad to see he didn't take it too bad.

And I stick to what I said about M$.

[Gamereviewgod]

Honestly, good for the kid. If you decide to modify your console for whatever reason, too damn bad. Get over it. Personally, I find it absolutely priceless and think he got exactly what he deserved.

[jonjandran]

Yea , God knows you shouldn't be able to buy something in a free country and do what you want with it. :roll:

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

I can't agree with the pro-update/deletion camp here. It should be an option, like updating your browser. If I buy an Xbox, I own the bloody hardware - it's not like a Dish network receiver where I'm just leasing the hardware. If Microsoft just leased the hardware for $X/monthly plus an upfront deposit, fine, they own it, they can do whatever. But if I own the box, keep your grubby mitts off - virtual or otherwise.

[YoshiM]

I can't agree with the pro-update/deletion camp here. It should be an option, like updating your browser. If I buy an Xbox, I own the bloody hardware - it's not like a Dish network receiver where I'm just leasing the hardware. If Microsoft just leased the hardware for $X/monthly plus an upfront deposit, fine, they own it, they can do whatever. But if I own the box, keep your grubby mitts off - virtual or otherwise.

I understand where you are coming from. However I'm not understanding why anyone is having an issue about this Live update. People seem to think that Microsoft is out to stomp their legitimate use of Linux on the Xbox and while they are probably partly right, they are also fixing a security bug that could cause problems with cheating on Xbox Live. So you select Live, you are on a network connection, the interface connects to get an update so it's able to communicate. Now if you want to play on Live, thems the brakes. Update or kiss your $49.95 goodbye. If you don't want to play on Xbox Live, the update isn't going to break anything if you want to use say Gamespy for your online gaming fix (AFAIK anyways). So that issue is moot. If you don't want to play online at all, dollars to donuts bets you probably don't have the Xbox connected to the Internet, so you'll never see this issue. The only thing I can see that could be useful is a cancel feature if the download takes a long time so that you can shut down your Xbox without any potential screw ups if you don't want to wait.

The ONLY people having an issue with this are the software modders. The ones who read about the exploit and well, exploited it. To play Live and NOT expect ANY sort of software change/upgrade is just nieve. I do somewhat agree that maybe there should be a pop up that says "Are you SURE you don't want to access Xbox Live?". I'm not sure, is Xbox Live defaulted when you don't have a disc in the system? But if the manual states stuff gets updated upon connection attempt, the user knows before hand. I mentioned chip modders before: they get BANNED if the mod chip is detected. Is that wrong-I don't think so. As I said before-their service, their rules.

[Ed Oscuro]

Yea , God knows you shouldn't be able to buy something in a free country and do what you want with it. :roll:

Yeah, like access somebody's services and somehow magically get use out of them, but not get the files necessary. WTF? I know the file deletion seems odd, but Microsoft is depending, for whatever reason, on the assumption that they have a closed system with no changes on it. Again...until we know what changes were made, it makes most sense to assume that they were simply named and were mistaken for either files that are bugged or used internally some other way by Microsoft--something like a logfile?

That said, it's ridiculous to expect that you can get a wholly free ride off a paid service like Live! Didn't the fellow say that he didn't ever pay for it?

[jonjandran]

That said, it's ridiculous to expect that you can get a wholly free ride off a paid service like Live! Didn't the fellow say that he didn't ever pay for it?

Did you actually expect me to read the article and then have a reasonable opinion ? @_@

[Mr Mort]

Sorry, I have absolutely no sympathy for this person.

If his Xbox signed on to Live, that means he purchased a subscription, otherwise his system would not have had an account ot log on with.
Having said that, it the guy actually read the user agreement when siging on for the account, he would have known that MS can and will update the Dashboard on the Xbox with newer versions from time to time. He also should have known that any and all methods of cheating are banned from Live, and that any foreign files or software on your Xbox HD can be used for said purpose, thus MS would most likely delete any unrecognized files on the HD to prevent cheating.

His sorry has should have never put a Live account on a modded Xbox, pure and simple.

[Achika]

In Germany or not, don't you think that if he legally bought a german-sold Xbox in Germany, that maybe somewhere in there, Microsoft would have written EULA's specifically for Germany? Or any other region for that matter where the Xbox was placed for sale and bought by a person from that same region.

Since when has anyone signed an EULA? I thought just by opening a software packet, removing a sticker from something or breaking the seal of a box you agreed to it? So he never did any of that?

Wait just a second, he says that the MechAssault game put the Live category in his dashboard? @_@ What kind of idiot would put in their account info in the first place without reading more about it somewhere else. :roll: