My war with EB... (This is quite long, bear with me!)

[maxlords]

Ok, I've got an ongoing rant about EB on my journalspace logs. You won't BELIEVE the shit they've been pulling with me lately. It's making me not want to shop there at all...EVER. I've divided this into parts so it's not insanely long in one post. Here's what's been going on with EB and me lately:

Post 1 (9.01.03):

Now that that's taken care of, it's time to rant! I called EB today, looking for a copy of Disgaea: Hour of Darkness for PS2. It's been out for a whopping 6 days when I call and "Ummmmmm....I can't find it in the computer" was the first response. So I tell him "Disgaea..... D I S G A E A" and I get "Oh....there it is, we only got enough for preorders, we don't have any. But it'd be $69.99 Cdn if we did" Gee thanks. I find it fascinating in a morbid way that a corporation that does nothing but sell video games fails to stock new games unless someone preorders them. Think about it. How will this help their profit margin if people WANT to buy games and can't? It makes their sell through figures per title look better to the stockholders, but ultimately results in people going somewhere else to buy the items, and in lost sales. Stupidest thing ever for a store to do.

Post 2 (9.02.03):

Well, here's the afternoon commentary. I lead an exciting life....which means I left the house to get the mail, got mail addressed to occupant, and didn't do much else today! I ended up calling Atlus about Disgaea, and they said they'd have it in stock in the next week or so tops. I find it amusing that an international software company doesn't stock their own games on release day, but waits a couple weeks before getting any in. I mean really, it's like they're encouraging you to buy elsewhere, even though they have a direct sales site (www.atlus.com). In fact, when I called Atlus, the guy answering the phone had to check to see if they were even getting Disgaea in stock at all. Then I told him I wanted to buy it direct cause EB didn't have it here, and he actually told me I should go buy it off EBgames' website! I tried to explain to him that I'd rather my money go directly to Atlus, but I don't think he understood the reasoning behind that. I guess he doesn't understand that people like me help to pay his salary. Dumbass. Usually I get smarter people when I call Atlus though!

[maxlords]

Post 3 (9.05.03):

Well, I got paid today. So I called EB to see if I could get the two games I'm looking for, Bombastic (PS2) and Disgaea (PS2). Unsurprisingly, not a single store in the area has Disgaea. Apparently it has a VERY low order percentage.

The first store I called said she just got one in yesterday and had to order it from a town over an hour away and it was the last one in the system! Aargh! Anyway, she explained to me that they don't have any because their allotment of new games is directly based on preorders. The fewer preorders a game gets, the fewer copies a store orders. Basically, they order more of a game if all the people that want to buy it preorder it, and then they have tons left on the shelves because everyone who wanted it preordered, and if no one knows it's coming, only a handful of people get copies at all. Dumbest system EVER. As I've mentioned in previous rantings, this is going to nail EB's ass to the wall in the future, because it's making people like me not want to buy games there.

Anyway, so I next asked for Bombastic (the sequel to Devil Dice, also called Xi Jumbo in Japan). "Oh..we have that...one copy left." Instantly I cringe. Now, you'd think this was a good thing, but EB has this strange policy of opening the last copy of EVERY sealed game they have and then displaying the boxes on shelves for every unwashed mongrel 12 year old with disturbingly assorted stains on their hands to fondle. Then they sell it to you, the customer who wants "NEW" merchandise at the new price even though it's been violated in ways you may not even want to know about. For some reason I suspect that this is less than legal, but it's allowed anyway.

So I explain to the girl that I don't buy "new" games if they're not factory sealed and she asks me why, so I explain to her that I've bought their "new" games in the past and had them be all scuffed up, and that a game devalues by approximately 50% as soon as you open it, which I often don't bother to do for months. I didn't bother to explain to her the joy of opening a new game yourself, because I doubt she'd understand.

So I call 7 different stores. Of those, three have the game (all EBs) and two only have one copy left! *sob* The last store I call has TWO copies left, which means one is sealed, so I have the counter troll go check and sure enough it's a factory sealed copy so I had him hold it! Whew! And all this for a game that's a gift for my wife, not even one I'm dying for myself! it just makes me wonder how corporations stay in business at all.

Post 4 (09.06.03):

I got to go buy Bombastic for PS2 today. Haven't had a chance to play it yet, but it at least looks cool. Picked up some other random stuff too, a Ripley's Believe it or Not boardgame, some free EB posters, and other junk that no one but me is interested in. The guy at EB told me that they don't even restock games anymore when they sell. For the smaller print run stuff, they get one to two copies and no replenishment at all. How bad is that? In a town of well over 300,000 with 3 game stores that carried the game, a total of approximately 6-9 copies of the game made it out to the public, and most were preorders! Insane. I can't even start ranting on how wrong this is (which the clerk agreed with me about) cause it'll go on for paragraphs..ones with long painful runon sentences.

Post 5 (09.21.03):

Well, my war with EB continues. I don't know why I subject myself to this, and what's even worse is that it's at EVERY EB I go to. Today, I went to the mall. Had a few bucks left over in my pocket (about $40) and I wanted to get Final Fantasy Tactics Advance for GBA. Well, we went to the mall and did a bit of shopping.

So we wander to EB. Ask the girl at the counter about Disgaea for kicks and she says "no way in hell, we can't get it at all." As you well know by reading this blabber, the game has barely been out for 3 weeks, and is sold out pretty much everywhere except online. The small initial print run Atlus did sold out fast, and it was small do to stupid places like EB underordering cause there weren't enough preorders for it. I explain to her that I actually CALLED Atlus 3 days ago to find out exactly why it's so hard to find Disgaea, and they explain very nicely that they underestimated demand and that a second printing has just been finished. It'll be shipping out this week and should hit stores in the next week or two. So the girl behind the counter says to me "Well, Atlus lied to you. The game companies all lie like that." Now, explain to me WHY a game PUBLISHER would lie about printing another shipment???? Especially when I took the effort to call them, and they've ALWAYS given me very personal and friendly customer service (I've bought direct from Atlus several times), and are one of the most gamer friendly companies around? And a clerk at EB knows this even though she's NEVER talked to Atlus or dealt with them. She knows that game corporations have a policy of lying about stuff like that and because it's not on EB's shelves due to EB's incredibly bad ordering system, Atlus MUST be lying about there being more copies. After she's said that EB doesn't restock so they wouldn't see more anyway. This makes VERY little sense to me.

So I'm talking with the girl about this insane policy and she tells me that I need to preorder ANYTHING I want. I ask her about Fatal Frame 2, and she gives me a November 11th release date, and them tells me if I want to get it at all, I need to preorder by mid-October! Now, this offends my sensibilities as a consumer. If I want to buy a product, I want to be able to go into a store and pick it up off the shelf NEW and buy it. I don't want to have to give a company money MONTHS ahead of time for them to hold my copy and then wait for it to come in, go through three price revisions, wait for the release day to get bumped back six times, and then finally get it late and have to come in within X hours (something like 48) to pick it up cause THEY won't hold it for me. That's insane. I just want to go buy it when I hear it's out. Is that too much to ask? Really?

Anyway, I notice that Boktai: The Sun is in Your Hands (the new Hideo Kojima Game Boy game) is out on shelves. Didn't know it was even close to release cause there's been relatively little press about it. This game has a sunlight sensor built into it and you have to play parts of the game in direct sunlight or it doesn't work. Neat idea, very innovative. It's $49.99 + tax, and I have $39 after I bought my book. So I go out to talk to my wife and she says "no way" and we go shopping for other stuff. We hit Wal-Mart to see if they had Boktai, no dice (not a shock though). Then we go to buy a sweatshirt for her with a gift card she has sitting in her wallet. I'll get into THAT in another post!

Anyway, so I go back to EB. Pick up their shelf copy of Boktai and bring it to the counter. "Do you have any factory sealed ones left?" They check the computer. "Nope...last copy." This means that I'd be paying $49.99 for an opened copy of Boktai that has a crushed box from grubby customers who don't care about anything. Full brand new retail price for an opened game with a damaged box. Can't bring myself to pay it even though I really want the game. The girl at the counter who I'd talked to earlier has the nerve to tell me that if I wanted a sealed one, I should have preordered it! Seriously, what the hell? She explains to me that basically, from now on, if there's anything I want that's not a highly advertised mainstream release, I need to preorder it at least 1 month in advance (which means putting down money) or I won't get it at all. Period. They're only getting 1-2 copies of the type of games I like per store, and not restocking. And usually, those 1-2 are preorders. Great. So I make her call the other stores in town. No other sealed copies of Boktai. None. I finally say "Well, if I want to buy a new game, I guess I'll go home and buy it online." And then I left.

I ranted to my wife about this for a few minutes, and she agrees with me that it's a stupid policy and that at this rate, they'll end up losing sales exponentially. Think about it. Alienate the hardcore gamer that buys 20-30 NEW titles a year at your store...then alienate half the people he talks to, and in a year and a half, you've got dropping sales all over the place. And they're trying to appeal to the mass market gamer, not people like me that are MORE likely to buy more with them. The mass market gamer buys whereever it's cheapers, usually Wal-mart or what have you, not EB. Anyway, it occurs to me to go to Best Buy, which they just built across the street from the mall.

So we wander into Best Buy and it's electroniphile fantasy land! Massive inventory of anime, games, electronics, all in stock, all sealed, not being pawed over by little kids....a dream come true. But no Boktai. So I ask a BB slave (you can tell they're slaves by their matching T-shirts of servitude). He asks someone else that's a "game section" person. She looks at me and says "Boktai? I've seen that...we should have it!" Goes over and looks. "Hmmmm, it's not there....I told them to put it out!" Goes in the back for a few minutes and comes out with a minty fresh sealed copy! Yay! Then she hands it to me and says "Oh, and by the way, it's on sale this week, $39.99 instead of $49.99" and walks off! I can't believe my luck :) Everyone at Best Buy was REALLY REALLY nice to me, and they helped me get exactly what I wanted, no sarcasm, no fuss. And when I looked at their anime section...the same DVDs that were $46.99 in the mall movie store were only $27.99 at Best Buy! A LOT of their prices were substiantially lower for DVDs and games...funny how EB who does "more game volume than anyone" according to their counter trolls has worse selection and much higher prices for a lot of games than a Best Buy that doesn't even specialize in games.

Basically, I feel that EB and companies following their patterns (Gamestop, etc) are going to slit their own throats with this. They're riding high on the gaining mass popularity of games, but they're losing the customer service they used to have VERY quickly. And losing that, in addition to basing their inventory purchases on preorders and LYING outright to customers is going to put them down HARD. And it serves them right.

[Half Japanese]

Sounds like you should shop exclusively at Best Buy. Not that that's what I choose, but it seems like the place that makes you happiest. I don't really care what the game stores do anymore. And that "you need to preorder" bullshit can eat my ass. I'll preorder on one condition: you give me free shit for my troubles. And NO, I DON'T MEAN THAT GODDAMN SILLY POSTER. Good shit.

[Drexel923]

I can see how you would get upset after all of that. I wonder if this kind of stuff happens only where you are though. I usually never have any of thos problems at any EB's or GameStops (including the one I work at) near me. I do however agree about the whole "new" business and I make sure to handle the display games with extra care.

[AB Positive]

Warning, I get angry on this issue, and not the way you'd think. Please, no one take this personal as I really am only angry at the jackoff with the lawyer.


While true, you want a sealed copy, nevertheless this is impossible for stores to adhere to. Yes, opening a sealed copy devalues it, but there's really -no- other way to display it. The lost sales over people that want it -sealed- and the gained revenue of lower shoplifting overhead is a balance all stores are willing to take.

I know you're a good guy Max, and I understand why you want a sealed copy, but here's where I get a little ticked. I don't think EB had this policy but Gamestop used to. It was a 7 day "Try it, if you don't like it bring it back" policy. It was great. If you didn't like the game, bring it back! It did have the clause that the game had to be brought back in decent condition becasue they'd be resold as new.

People got pissed, Gamestop got sued. This policy is no longer in effect and I I want to kill people because of it. It was a great deal, you NEVER had to buy a game you would later find out you hated. You didn't have to keep it! You could bring it back. Even as an employee I found it necessary to use this as an overhyped game came through that sucked. Now I can't. I blame the vocal minority.

I ask this question as well... is it really that hard to preorder? 5 bucks down? I mean, for a refundable fee, you guarantee you'll get a game the way you want it. Knock the pre-order/games in stock system, but 95% of the time it works (for examples of failures, see Grand Theft Auto 3 and it's cousin Vice City. These games deserve their own rant from me, but that's for a later date).

Hell, when I worked at Gamestop, I pre-ordered. Why? 'Cause I wanted the game, and it's nice to pay a little now, and the rest later. It's in my name, no one else can have it, and it will be sealed.




Sorry to go off on you Max, nothing personal, but this issue has pissed me off hardcore since Gamestop got sued.

-AG

[maxlords]

Well, EB COULD get around it very easily. All they need to do is:

1. install the magnetic detector units in stores. The Sensomatic ones.

2. Put all their display copies in hard plastic (virtually unbreakable) cases like Best Buy and many other stores

Then you could leave the complete ones on the shelf unruined for people to peruse without damage and you don't have to crack them. VERY simple for EB to institute. A bit spendy at first, but those cases last a LONG time, and EB has plenty of $ to do it.

Also, EB used to have a 14 day return policy on ALL game purchases. This was 4 years ago. Buy it, play it, if you don't like it, bring it back. But if I remember correctly, back then they didn't put them back out as new, they went back out as used with a $5 discount or something like that. It's doable, but they do it this way instead, by choice. I understand doing away with the return policy, but not with opening games and selling them as new. And ESPECIALLY with damage or scratches, whether they're caused by customer or employee. If it has ANY damage, it's not new. Period. I'm very firm about this. There are no excuses for it. Any other store that opens merchandise sells it as shelfworn, and even EB USED to do that. Now they don't.

As for preordering. Yes, it's ridiculous to put $5 down on every game I'm interested in a month ahead of time. I'd be putting down $20 a month easy, and then changing it around, and taking it back and fiddling with it constantly. It's a waste of my time and the store's time. Period. There are a LOT of titles I want, and I never know if I'm gonna have enough cash to grab them. If I do, I want to go buy them off the shelf. If I don't, I'll wait. I don't have a steady job and I don't know a month in advance if I'm going to have the cash then or not. I don't LIKE to preorder games unless there's a special promo item involved. I'd rather buy off the shelf EVERY time. And if I preorder EVERY title I want, I've got a bunch of money tied up in stuff I may or may not get when it comes in, and that's not fair when I decide to put half of it back or not to get it, especially when the release dates fluctuate on me and I have to pick it up within 48 hours. Basically the company is saying "We won't stock this title unless you put cash money down ahead of time, and then you have to pick it up on OUR timetable." There's no customer service there, that's just the company trying to get a higher sell through rate against their total inventory. I won't be a part of it. Period. It's not necessary.

And for the record, I don't WANT to shop exclusively at Best Buy. I buy wherever I can find games....but EB is making me want to go there less and less every time I go, and EVERY EB in my area is like this!

[Lady Jaye]

Max, I'm glad your local Future Shop/Best Buy has a good selection of games and anime. My local one is kinda fine game-wise, but not so great anime-wise (I prefer DVD Passion for a better selection).

[SoulBlazer]

You make some good points, Maxlords, and I agree that stores tend to be pushy on pre-orders these days. But Adam also raised good points I fully agree with.

I've bought openm copies of games before (display copies, like your Atlus game :) ) that were still in great shape. All the EB did was take the disc out, put the CD in a sealed bag, and put it in a drawer. That's it. I don't care if I rip anything open.

And my local EB had TONS of copies of all those games you mentioned, so I guess it really depends on the area also. They also have better stock and selection then my local Best Buy.

As I've said before, a main reason I personaly pre-order is to make SURE I get the game on release day (I'm a impatient person :) ) and to make sure it's new PLUS they call me when it comes in, which helps with all these changing release dates.

Whichever store works best for you -- we all have our favorite and hated stores. (I've had bad experiences with Gamespots, but I still shop there).

Oh, many games, you WILL need to go online for. I got many good games from Amazon, both new and used. With SO many games coming out SO fast, the brick places can only stock so many and so much.

[AB Positive]

Max: There's no way Sensormatic would work in small game stores, the register system itself would have to be -completely- reworked as there's already 12 peripherals and a donkey hooked up to each register. Plus, with the proximity of the door to stock, it's very possible for accidental alarms to happen... every ten seconds.

As for the large plastic cases, again, there's nowhere NEAR enough room for that. Both Gamestops and the EB near me have way too much stock for way too little space. Add to this that two other flaws:

1) With protective cases you have to face out all games. This is near impossible due to space. Hell, it's hard enough to fit an entire system's games on the allotted shelving spine only.

2) Cost. Think about the fact that every game would now require a plastic case. Now imagine a shipment of the newest game coming in, and a small store getting it's usual 100 copies of the next big thing. All need plastic cases. You already don't have enough room for the last game, and now you can't display the new one.


These ideas aren't new, they've already been tried and in the game-only stores it won't work. Used games take up too much space and there's no chance of the used games being removed as they are the real money makers for the stores



As for your points for the pre-ordering, I just can't get in that frame of mind. If I know I'm going to get the game, I'll pre-order it. Even if I'm just thinking about it, I'll reserve it, since I can always get my 5 bucks back. It's not like it's hard to get to the store or anything.

Then again, I've only bought 2 new games this year.


I do not from the first posts that EB apparently doesn't get any other copies in besides pre-orders? If that's the truth it's dumb, but most likely they're lying. Every gamestop I know of gets AT LEAST 2 copies above pre-order. Sure, not a whole lot, but it's some. If they really only do pre-order copies, it is dumb as you have to also catch the guy-off-the-street.

Also, if it's a huge title, I won't preorder either unless there's a neat bonus, like the SC2 art book. Vice City doesn't need pre-orders, they'll be some at the end of the day. If you didn't want an art book, SC2 would have been there as well. At least at Gamestop.



Still, even before I worked in a game store, I found it hard to understand why people flat out refuse to preorder. It's essentially freaking lay-a-way.

-AG

[mrhaboobi]

People got pissed, Gamestop got sued. This policy is no longer in effect and I I want to kill people because of it. It was a great deal, you NEVER had to buy a game you would later find out you hated. You didn't have to keep it! You could bring it back. Even as an employee I found it necessary to use this as an overhyped game came through that sucked. Now I can't.

Now dont take this the wrong way ( its not a perosnal attack just me venting so please dont get angry with me :) ),but its people with this attitude that i hate, have you not heard of a video shop, where you can rent games before you buy them ? i mean c'mon, why the hell should you be able to take the game back, theres no reason for anyone to make an un informed purchase, theres online reviews, mag and last resort hire the damn game for a night. If people arte stupid enough to buy with out researching then thats their bad luck..

Now like you i dont want anyone to take my rant personally, but the reason i get so heated is that ive seen people abuse that right of return far too many times, people brag about completing a game and then taking it back within 7 days, they have the nerve to say that " oh i completed the game and it took 60 hrs, but now ive played it ill return it" and they do this and swap it for the next new release and i go into the shop to buy a new game and get a pre played game, thats not "New" , why should i have to put up with that?

Ive also worked a few years in a large game shop so i know what its like from both points of view.. i tried on many occasions to point people into buying the right games.

Max, all i can say is yes i also prefer to buy new sealed games, especially if i buy from ebay, but mate, you should be happy you dont live in New Zealand, as distributors do not distribute the games sealed.. almost every single game is unsealed :(

[Duncan]

I see where Max is coming from regarding the new phenomenon of "required" pre-orders, and I agree. If I want, say, a new DVD or CD, I don't have to put down $2 up front and wait -- I can get it on the day it's released, or whenever it's convenient. The film and music industries understand this, though they still offer the option of pre-ordering for people who want the extra security of a guaranteed copy -- so why should it be any different for video games?

Just in case someone at EB/GameStop/Babbage's/whatever is listening, here's a quick explanation of free market economics:

1) Find new product.
2) Determine demand for the product, perhaps by looking at sales figures for similar products of the past.
3) Order as many units of the product as you think you'll be able to sell at a profit.
4) Sell the product at as high a price as is reasonably acceptable.
5) If demand for the product declines, decrease the price accordingly to meet the change.
6) If the allotted amount of the product sells out, determine whether demand is still high enough to reorder the product and make a reasonable profit.

Seriously, whatever happened to that model? Honestly, I think the only reason they bank on pre-orders is to be able to quote a certain number of guaranteed sales for each month -- rather than actually taking a chance on what might be a surprise hit. If this were Best Buy, Target or Wal-Mart we were talking about, then I'd understand -- they don't specialize entirely in games, and thus have less interest in keeping unsold stock around. But EB and other similar places are supposed to be in the business of selling games -- not just minimizing risk by keeping as little stock as possible.

And yes, the real profit for these places is most definitely in the used bins. I find it funny that most of the used titles sell for just a minimal discount from their new prices. (Example -- Stuntman for PS2; new price $24.99, used price $19.99. Seriously, come on...)

Finally, I agree that pre-ordering only makes sense if you get some sort of pleasant bonus like an extra disc or a limited-edition freebie. A free poster or similar cheap trinket does not count. You're proving your worth to the company by offering to pay in advance; the least they could do is return the favor with something of value.

Duncan :D

[Delgrace]

Max, all i can say is yes i also prefer to buy new sealed games, especially if i buy from ebay, but mate, you should be happy you dont live in New Zealand, as distributors do not distribute the games sealed.. almost every single game is unsealed :(

I think that's the same for Australia, too, having lived in both countries. I have never brought a shrinkwrapped game in my life...oh no, once. One shrink-wrapped game; Legacy of Kain, in the local Warehouse bargain bin. Over here, all game cartridges/CDs and booklets etc are kept behind counter under lock and key; the cases for display are the ones you get, which is why I can often spend a good 15 minutes looking for JUST a case. Some look like they've been attacked by tigers or something, so I make sure to get a good one.

I've never had problems with games or something being stratched, although there was this time a cashier chick (in Target) was scanning through Pokemon Sapphire and Megaman Battle Network. When she made the pass over Pokemon Sapphire, she realised she had it misaligned (the scan didn't register), and pissed off she thumped the box. HARD. I almost passed out. Here she was, missing a BARCODE because of her own stupid fault, and she goes and abuses my fucken Pokemon Sapphire box. When it was all done, I opened the bag in front of her and inspected the box. Lucky for her, it was surprisingly flawless. I walked out without a word.

EB over here is alright. I barely buy anything from them, because Target and Big W are often cheaper, although they usually have quite the impressive Bargain Bin. Everything from $10 PC games to used, high demand Dreamcast titles (although haven't seen any of THOSE for a while). Plus I like their pamplets.

[devilman]

It seems a strange way to go for shops over there. It's all very well encouraging pre-orders to ensure everyone gets their game on time, but what about impulse buying? In the UK, I have no trouble walking into one of four shops (two of which are 'Game', i.e. EB) and picking up a game on release date, or sometimes the day before it's official release.

I've only ever pre-ordered three times - Winning Eleven 7 was my first and I've currently got Rogue Squadron III & Taiko no Tatsujin 3rd Generation awaiting. However, I'd much rather take my credit card into a shop and have a browse. If something takes my fancy, I'll splash out. I'm glad that the stores in my area in the UK always carry stock rather than just pandering to pre-orders or they'd miss out on my impulse buys and I'd do my shopping exclusively online.

[AB Positive]

mrhaboobi: Yes, there are a few people that will do that with the "No questions asked" return policy, but really when I worked at the store there were maybe 2 or 3 people that were like that. You could always tell because the game they were returning was paid with "Return credit" that was got from a game that was... also paid with by return credit.

But if you dealt with those 2-3 people and still allowed the other 150 or so people to come back because the game they got for someone was opened and for the wrong system, a gift someone didn't like, a game they didn't like themselves, etc, etc... then it still seemed worth it. It was a great policy, and to me, because of a few people that -refuse to preorder-, the policy went away.


I took nothing personal, but frankly that policy made Gamestop the best place to shop because you never had to worry about keeping a bad game. Ever. But now I can't even buy there because I refuse to be stuck with a game I don't like.


As for rental places, that's a whole other rant that gets rather defeated here when the point is getting a sealed/new game. Have you ever rented a perfect game? Have you rented a CD game that ever worked? If you have, you don't live around here with the idiot rental places. Ooooh, that could be a whole other rant practically.


-AG

[kainemaxwell]

Max, after reading these I'm starting to hink EB's corporate offices has your picture there with the caption "Screw over this man". This day of age I wouldn't be surprised though.

I'll be happy when the Best Buy near me opens in 2 months though,least the prices for everything there are reasonable and people are nice (someone in my class works at a BB).

[Ed Oscuro]

Eek, yes I understand this issue, since EB = Babbage's = GameStop (Right?)

Anyways, they've all got the same policy.

Love how I got a "It's Empty!" Phantasy Star Online case (shoulda kept it unopened, but then I'd have no place to put my disk) and then got the manual with the disk BETWEEN THE PAGES separately. Damn mess, especially since I kept the shrinkwrap inside somewhere or else. o_O

Anyways.

Actually, today in one of my buying attempts somebody told me that it'd be $2 cheaper to have a game shipped without the case and the manual. Huh? Since I'm a collector, I'd rather pay the $2 since it's easily worth it, especially considering how I store things (on a shelf) and that I like boxes, and that games with boxes are worth more. Actually, it was a considerate gesture, but not necessary.

[maxlords]

Now dont take this the wrong way ( its not a perosnal attack just me venting so please dont get angry with me :) ),but its people with this attitude that i hate, have you not heard of a video shop, where you can rent games before you buy them ? i mean c'mon, why the hell should you be able to take the game back, theres no reason for anyone to make an un informed purchase, theres online reviews, mag and last resort hire the damn game for a night. If people arte stupid enough to buy with out researching then thats their bad luck..

Honestly, I usually can't find definitive review till the game has been out a few days, and being as I don't TRUST the game sites or usually agree with their reviews at all, I like to see what other people think of a game usually before I go to buy it. This pretty much kills the concept of preordering for me because you have to get it within 48 hours, and I like to hear about a week of people playing it first. I research as much as I can, but there's no research that comes close to hearing about it from friends that have played it and know your tastes. I can't rent here because none of the local places even GET the games I want to play or I'd go rent, then buy, and then I'd STILL be unable to get the game cause I didn't pick it up for preorder in time. It's ridiculous.


Seriously, whatever happened to that model? Honestly, I think the only reason they bank on pre-orders is to be able to quote a certain number of guaranteed sales for each month -- rather than actually taking a chance on what might be a surprise hit. If this were Best Buy, Target or Wal-Mart we were talking about, then I'd understand -- they don't specialize entirely in games, and thus have less interest in keeping unsold stock around. But EB and other similar places are supposed to be in the business of selling games -- not just minimizing risk by keeping as little stock as possible.

And yes, the real profit for these places is most definitely in the used bins. I find it funny that most of the used titles sell for just a minimal discount from their new prices. (Example -- Stuntman for PS2; new price $24.99, used price $19.99. Seriously, come on...)

Exactly! They're trying to get a higher percentage of sell through by doing preorders and judging demand solely on preorders. They that if no one preorders a game, no one wants it. There are several fallacies in this model of business.

1. Not everyone knows the release dates! Especially when they change from week to week. Hell I didn't even know Boktai OR Disgaea were coming out until AFTER they were on shelves! I knew they were coming but I hadn't heard much at all. When I called to check, they were ALREADY out! And for a corporation that depends just as much on walk-in business, they're slitting their own throats.

2. If I preorder and don't WANT a game, they're still stuck with it. If you're trying for a higher sell through percentage and you get someone like me who buys 30+ new titles a year easily, and I never know what I'm waiting for, then invariably, I won't want even half of what I preorder. IF I went that route, I'd probably have to preorder at least 60 games a year, and I'd end up putting over half back due to inconveniences in timing when I get the call that they're in, etc. So they end up with a lot of shit preordered that I won't buy. Guaranteed. It kills their sell through ratio, but that doesn't matter cause the managers have a preorder quota, not a sell through quota.

3. Preorders do NOT equal demand! They equal the exact number of people that want the game bad enough to pay in advance and hold a copy. However, MANY people want a game but don't pay in advance....they just go buy it when they know it's out. You can't judge the number of people that want a game by the number of people that put $5 down on it. You just can't. You end up with a title like Disgaea, that maybe 8 or 10 people preordered around the city here, and over a hundred are looking for that DIDN'T preorder it. You can't run a business by punishing consumers cause they didn't give you money in advance. You run a business by supplying product that's in demand, and you can't meet the demand if you don't STOCK a product. This is the lazy game buyer's way of buying merchandise, cause none of EB's buyers want to put their ass on the line and say "This will sell" and then get stuck with them. Instead, they only go with the sure thing, and end up overordering mainstream titles and underordering everything else.

As for used stuff, they make MUCH higher profits.....something like 300% or more versus less than 20% on new stuff. The used margin is where ALL the profit is, which is another reason they don't want new stock on the shelves. However, I RARELY buy used stuff from EB, as it tends to be fairly well damaged a lot of the time.


Yes, there are a few people that will do that with the "No questions asked" return policy, but really when I worked at the store there were maybe 2 or 3 people that were like that. You could always tell because the game they were returning was paid with "Return credit" that was got from a game that was... also paid with by return credit.

But if you dealt with those 2-3 people and still allowed the other 150 or so people to come back because the game they got for someone was opened and for the wrong system, a gift someone didn't like, a game they didn't like themselves, etc, etc... then it still seemed worth it. It was a great policy, and to me, because of a few people that -refuse to preorder-, the policy went away.

First off, the employees always had the choice to LIMIT the number of times that people brought back games, but they CHOSE not to! That was always part of the policy for EB at least. I know because back in Oregon, they wouldn't LET you keep bringing it back. If you abuse such a policy, then it gets cancelled for you. That's fair. Those people do it too frequently, and bam, no more return/exchanges for you. Here's your money back, go somewhere else. A business has the RIGHT to do that.

But the reason that they stopped taking returns was NOT because of people not preordering! That doesn't even make sense. If it's a horrible game, let them return it for something they know they like. That's fair. You'll only lose money on crappy titles. If they start to abuse it, cut em off. For gifts, most people don't open a title if they got it as a gift and don't want it anyway, but they rarely have the reciept for it! So now, I tell people NOT to get me a game as a gift unless it's a specific title on my list. Period. Since I can't return it, even sealed. I dont' see how the returns policy relates to the preorder policy, because I have to preorder so far in advance that I have no clue if I'll like a game or not. I can't research it, I just have to say "Here, take my money and I'll decide later" if I want something. That's totally unfair to the consumer. The returns problem and the preorder policy are two separate problems that need to be addressed. I have no issues with EB if they don't want to allow returns. No one else that deals in media does. That's fine. But sealed stuff, you should be able to return, reciept or not. If they wanted to reinstitute the return policy where you could bring a game back if it sucked, well, they'd have to CONTROL it this time. They're the business, they set the rules. But for preordering, it's simply NOT necessary. It doesn't give a good demographic of what sales will be like on non-preorders, and it skews the ordering on all but the biggest titles.

Finally, the Sensomatic thing. it would be EASY for even a small EB to install Sensomatics. The new door detectors are small, and can easily be avoided, even in the smallest stores I've been in. There's more than enough room. And EB can buy slimline hardcases that take up only millimeters more than the DVD cases games come in now which would allow the display of merchandise JUST like they do now, but you could leave the games in. They're not paupers....the stores CAN afford to do this easily. There's plenty of room, but they don't CARE. That's the point. EB doesn't give a shit about it's customers, only it's bottom line. And by sticking it to the customers with the preorder policy and opening the games they're protecting their bottom line over their customers. Most everyone here has said that they don't like to buy opened games. Well, hell, MAKE A PROTEST ABOUT IT! Dont' just go, "Oh, I'll just have to preorder so I don't have to deal with it", but instead make it clear that you don't LIKE the policy and that it DIRECTLY affects your buying at the store. That's the only thing that will change it. I do it every time I go into town to hunt games....I make it crystal clear to the manager of whatever store that I'm in that they ARE losing my business (which is a lot compared to the average gamer) because of this. I buy 30+ new titles a year, sometimes more. And if they start alienating people like me...how long till they alienate the average gamer?

[Delgrace]

As for used stuff, they make MUCH higher profits.....something like 300% or more versus less than 20% on new stuff. The used margin is where ALL the profit is, which is another reason they don't want new stock on the shelves. However, I RARELY buy used stuff from EB, as it tends to be fairly well damaged a lot of the time.


How exactly does that work? Tax write off or something? (I mean the profit with the used stuff.) *puzzled*

[devilman]

I would've thought it was because they offer people so little for games in terms of trade-in value. Or at least, that's the case in the UK. I would never trade a game in EB/Game as they offer a pittance for it. There's a local independent shop that offer a bit more, but I'm still better off Ebaying the game and using the money to buy something else.

[Jorpho]

After reading Acts of Gord (http://www.actsofgord.com/), I find it hard not to pity those who have to sell games for a living.

I think EB is nice because of all those great old used PC games that they put $3 price tags on simply because they aren't in their system anymore.

As for sealed games, isn't Toys 'R' Us still pretty good with those?
________
Honda cbf500 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_CBF500)

[Drexel923]

Just in case someone at EB/GameStop/Babbage's/whatever is listening, here's a quick explanation of free market economics:

1) Find new product.
2) Determine demand for the product, perhaps by looking at sales figures for similar products of the past.
3) Order as many units of the product as you think you'll be able to sell at a profit.
4) Sell the product at as high a price as is reasonably acceptable.
5) If demand for the product declines, decrease the price accordingly to meet the change.
6) If the allotted amount of the product sells out, determine whether demand is still high enough to reorder the product and make a reasonable profit.

Seriously, whatever happened to that model? Honestly, I think the only reason they bank on pre-orders is to be able to quote a certain number of guaranteed sales for each month -- rather than actually taking a chance on what might be a surprise hit. If this were Best Buy, Target or Wal-Mart we were talking about, then I'd understand -- they don't specialize entirely in games, and thus have less interest in keeping unsold stock around. But EB and other similar places are supposed to be in the business of selling games -- not just minimizing risk by keeping as little stock as possible.

Ok I don't know how its done at EB, but at Gamestop the employees have no say in whats ordered and how much we get. The home office sends us whatever they feel like. Its not like we can say to ourselves...we think Disgaea will sell alot, send us tons of copies. No, we just get what they give us. Hell we don't even know when we get our replcement shipments in until a day or two before.


But the reason that they stopped taking returns was NOT because of people not preordering! That doesn't even make sense. If it's a horrible game, let them return it for something they know they like. That's fair. You'll only lose money on crappy titles. If they start to abuse it, cut em off. For gifts, most people don't open a title if they got it as a gift and don't want it anyway, but they rarely have the reciept for it! So now, I tell people NOT to get me a game as a gift unless it's a specific title on my list. Period. Since I can't return it, even sealed. I dont' see how the returns policy relates to the preorder policy, because I have to preorder so far in advance that I have no clue if I'll like a game or not. I can't research it, I just have to say "Here, take my money and I'll decide later" if I want something. That's totally unfair to the consumer. The returns problem and the preorder policy are two separate problems that need to be addressed. I have no issues with EB if they don't want to allow returns. No one else that deals in media does. That's fine. But sealed stuff, you should be able to return, reciept or not.

Once again I don't know how its done at EB, but at Gamestop if you have a sealed game bought at one of our stores and you have a receipt, you can bring back the title within 7 days of purchase.


Eek, yes I understand this issue, since EB = Babbage's = GameStop (Right?)

Gamestop = Babbages, Funco, Software Etc., more
EB is seperate company.

As far as the reason why they discontinued the return policy...it was because they were taking a hit on the price. They wouldn't take the game back for full price and then turn around and sell it as new...they would have to take the hit and sell it as a used item. Now it wouldn't really mean that much of a difference if a couple people did this, but the minute you offer anything to a consumer or human being for that matter a whole shit load of people try to abuse it.


Finally, the Sensomatic thing. it would be EASY for even a small EB to install Sensomatics. The new door detectors are small, and can easily be avoided, even in the smallest stores I've been in. There's more than enough room. And EB can buy slimline hardcases that take up only millimeters more than the DVD cases games come in now which would allow the display of merchandise JUST like they do now, but you could leave the games in. They're not paupers....the stores CAN afford to do this easily. There's plenty of room, but they don't CARE. That's the point. EB doesn't give a shit about it's customers, only it's bottom line. And by sticking it to the customers with the preorder policy and opening the games they're protecting their bottom line over their customers. Most everyone here has said that they don't like to buy opened games. Well, hell, MAKE A PROTEST ABOUT IT! Dont' just go, "Oh, I'll just have to preorder so I don't have to deal with it", but instead make it clear that you don't LIKE the policy and that it DIRECTLY affects your buying at the store. That's the only thing that will change it. I do it every time I go into town to hunt games....I make it crystal clear to the manager of whatever store that I'm in that they ARE losing my business (which is a lot compared to the average gamer) because of this. I buy 30+ new titles a year, sometimes more. And if they start alienating people like me...how long till they alienate the average gamer?

Funny thing is that the average gamer and 99.9% of the people that come into my store and other stores I know of don't care if they get the display copy. WE my friend are in the minority. They aren't going to spend all of this money if they don't have too. If they lose some business from collectors then so be it, but most of their costomers will be fine.


EDIT...Oh yeah I forgot. At my store if someone pre-orders we hold the game for them for a while. I don't know what this 48 hours bullshit is.

[AB Positive]

Yes, there are a few people that will do that with the "No questions asked" return policy, but really when I worked at the store there were maybe 2 or 3 people that were like that. You could always tell because the game they were returning was paid with "Return credit" that was got from a game that was... also paid with by return credit.

But if you dealt with those 2-3 people and still allowed the other 150 or so people to come back because the game they got for someone was opened and for the wrong system, a gift someone didn't like, a game they didn't like themselves, etc, etc... then it still seemed worth it. It was a great policy, and to me, because of a few people that -refuse to preorder-, the policy went away.

But the reason that they stopped taking returns was NOT because of people not preordering! That doesn't even make sense. If it's a horrible game, let them return it for something they know they like. That's fair. You'll only lose money on crappy titles. If they start to abuse it, cut em off. For gifts, most people don't open a title if they got it as a gift and don't want it anyway, but they rarely have the reciept for it! So now, I tell people NOT to get me a game as a gift unless it's a specific title on my list. Period. Since I can't return it, even sealed. I dont' see how the returns policy relates to the preorder policy, because I have to preorder so far in advance that I have no clue if I'll like a game or not. I can't research it, I just have to say "Here, take my money and I'll decide later" if I want something. That's totally unfair to the consumer. The returns problem and the preorder policy are two separate problems that need to be addressed. I have no issues with EB if they don't want to allow returns. No one else that deals in media does. That's fine. But sealed stuff, you should be able to return, reciept or not. If they wanted to reinstitute the return policy where you could bring a game back if it sucked, well, they'd have to CONTROL it this time. They're the business, they set the rules. But for preordering, it's simply NOT necessary. It doesn't give a good demographic of what sales will be like on non-preorders, and it skews the ordering on all but the biggest titles.

Finally, the Sensomatic thing. it would be EASY for even a small EB to install Sensomatics. The new door detectors are small, and can easily be avoided, even in the smallest stores I've been in. There's more than enough room. And EB can buy slimline hardcases that take up only millimeters more than the DVD cases games come in now which would allow the display of merchandise JUST like they do now, but you could leave the games in. They're not paupers....the stores CAN afford to do this easily. There's plenty of room, but they don't CARE. That's the point. EB doesn't give a shit about it's customers, only it's bottom line. And by sticking it to the customers with the preorder policy and opening the games they're protecting their bottom line over their customers. Most everyone here has said that they don't like to buy opened games. Well, hell, MAKE A PROTEST ABOUT IT! Dont' just go, "Oh, I'll just have to preorder so I don't have to deal with it", but instead make it clear that you don't LIKE the policy and that it DIRECTLY affects your buying at the store. That's the only thing that will change it. I do it every time I go into town to hunt games....I make it crystal clear to the manager of whatever store that I'm in that they ARE losing my business (which is a lot compared to the average gamer) because of this. I buy 30+ new titles a year, sometimes more. And if they start alienating people like me...how long till they alienate the average gamer?


I'll go backwards here. The sensomatic problem is the fact that there will inevitably be stock -beyond- the sensor points, plus have you ever stood by the LP desk at a Best Buy for a long time. Beeps every 4th person and the LP person can only let them go. Sensomatic is a waste of money for anyone.

As for the slimline cases, you would still need to face out every title in order to display them, which would be impossible.


Now, I made a logical leap or two to link lack of preorders to the removal of the return policy, and I apologize because I didn't actually write it down. Here's how it went:

Lack of preorders = less people with sealed new games.

Less people with sealed new games = people pissed about return policy.

People pissed about return policy = removal of policy.


Also, gamestop, to my knowledge, were not allowed to refuse a return unless the product itself is damaged. Therefore we just had to let it happen. Still, as I saw it, it was a very very small amount of people that would do this.


Now, here's another thing I was unaware of until today: EB charges $5, and if you cancel the reserve you lose the cash. This, is retarded. Re-tard-ed. Also, I don't know what's up with this "Weeks in advance" thing you have to do for preorders, I can take preorders up to the day before a release date. If you had come in on the 8th and wanted to guarantee a FFT:Advance for the next day, you could. If EB also requires a week or more advance, this is also dumb.




I hate to tell you this Max, but EB and Gamestop don't really care much about new sales. The new stuff is basically there to appease those that want the latest games. I'm certain just off used titles that both companies could survive for years without carrying brand new games. The profit margin is THAT big on used.


It's because of the low price of this used stock. Plus, unless you go to the 200 test stores giving cash, Most Gamestops and all EBs only give you store credit, which you -have to use in the store-. Basically it's a trade where you end up on the short end of the stick. They then sell the used games for mass profit (They always make at least double their cost back except for brand-brand-brand new games).


As much as this sucks, it's how the buisness goes. I realize the impersonal nature of it, and the cookie cutter monkey nature of the employees, I know this well as I am one (again). However it just ticks me off so much that the return policy was revoked indirectly due to people not wanting to reserve, it's dumb as hell. The lawsuit was dumb as hell, but with the revolving door justice system in America (again, another rant for a later date), the vocal minority lost and the majority loses. Again.


-AG

[maxlords]

As for used stuff, they make MUCH higher profits.....something like 300% or more versus less than 20% on new stuff. The used margin is where ALL the profit is, which is another reason they don't want new stock on the shelves. However, I RARELY buy used stuff from EB, as it tends to be fairly well damaged a lot of the time.


How exactly does that work? Tax write off or something? (I mean the profit with the used stuff.) *puzzled*

Ok, for those of you that don't understand this:

1. A store pays you $X for a game. Lets say $20 in credit to make things simple.

2. By paying $20 in credit, they've paid about $10 in cash, as credit costs a store less than cash. You see, for credit, they still get their markup on whatever you trade for, which means they make profit on TOP of the trade in profit. EB doesn't pay cash at all, only trade these days.

3. They take that game that they paid $10 for and put it on the shelf for $50 used. Now they're making a 400% profit, because if they sold it for $10, they'd make 0% profit, $20 is 100% profit, and so on. In other words they made four times what they paid for it. The profit margin on used games is MUCH higher than new. New games cost the company about $30-45, and they sell for $40-50. Which means around 10-20% profit at most, and that profit is a smaller dollar figure. In other words, they make a LOT more money off of used games...they might make $5-10 on a new game, but the same game used, they'd make $30+. Make sense?


After reading Acts of Gord (http://www.actsofgord.com/), I find it hard not to pity those who have to sell games for a living.

I think EB is nice because of all those great old used PC games that they put $3 price tags on simply because they aren't in their system anymore.

Well, the EBs here sells most of those for $20. Only the worst ones get to be $3. Anything the manager recognizes is $7, and anything they deem "collectible" on their system starts at $20, even if it's a disc only PC game. If you're getting good PC games cheap, you're lucky.

And sure, every retail store gets it's share of idiots. Game stores more than most, but I worked retail for 8 years and I have horror stories JUST like that from every store I worked at.

Oh...and Toys R US has sealed games, but they're still got PS1 games at the Toys R Us here for $75. They don't discount here in Canada at all.


Ok I don't know how its done at EB, but at Gamestop the employees have no say in whats ordered and how much we get. The home office sends us whatever they feel like. Its not like we can say to ourselves...we think Disgaea will sell alot, send us tons of copies. No, we just get what they give us. Hell we don't even know when we get our replcement shipments in until a day or two before.

Once again I don't know how its done at EB, but at Gamestop if you have a sealed game bought at one of our stores and you have a receipt, you can bring back the title within 7 days of purchase.

As far as the reason why they discontinued the return policy...it was because they were taking a hit on the price. They wouldn't take the game back for full price and then turn around and sell it as new...they would have to take the hit and sell it as a used item. Now it wouldn't really mean that much of a difference if a couple people did this, but the minute you offer anything to a consumer or human being for that matter a whole shit load of people try to abuse it.

Funny thing is that the average gamer and 99.9% of the people that come into my store and other stores I know of don't care if they get the display copy. WE my friend are in the minority. They aren't going to spend all of this money if they don't have too. If they lose some business from collectors then so be it, but most of their costomers will be fine.

EDIT...Oh yeah I forgot. At my store if someone pre-orders we hold the game for them for a while. I don't know what this 48 hours bullshit is.

Ok, I guess you misunderstood. I know that stores don't do ordering. What I'm saying is that CORPORATE EB is basing their orders solely on preorder quantities. Which means that the stores get the short end of the stick on anything that isn't preordered, so they have to push preorders like CRAZY!

For sealed games at EB, you have 14 days to return them with a reciept. That still screws you if you got it as a gift, or didn't preorder and couldn't FIND the game to buy.

I understand why they discontinued the return policy, but the problem is that EB is opening the games and then selling them new, which is what Gamestop WOULDN'T do. And yeah, too many people took advantage, but they COULD have limited it in other ways. It's too late now though.

And yeah, most people don't care if they get the display copy, but I suspect that WILL change in the future. The collector dissatisfaction is only the beginning if this keeps up. We're the first line, kind of like frogs and pollution. Oh...and the 48 hour thing is current EB corporate policy.


I'll go backwards here. The sensomatic problem is the fact that there will inevitably be stock -beyond- the sensor points, plus have you ever stood by the LP desk at a Best Buy for a long time. Beeps every 4th person and the LP person can only let them go. Sensomatic is a waste of money for anyone.

As for the slimline cases, you would still need to face out every title in order to display them, which would be impossible.

Now, I made a logical leap or two to link lack of preorders to the removal of the return policy, and I apologize because I didn't actually write it down. Here's how it went:
Lack of preorders = less people with sealed new games.
Less people with sealed new games = people pissed about return policy.
People pissed about return policy = removal of policy.

Also, gamestop, to my knowledge, were not allowed to refuse a return unless the product itself is damaged. Therefore we just had to let it happen. Still, as I saw it, it was a very very small amount of people that would do this.

Now, here's another thing I was unaware of until today: EB charges $5, and if you cancel the reserve you lose the cash. This, is retarded. Re-tard-ed. Also, I don't know what's up with this "Weeks in advance" thing you have to do for preorders, I can take preorders up to the day before a release date. If you had come in on the 8th and wanted to guarantee a FFT:Advance for the next day, you could. If EB also requires a week or more advance, this is also dumb.

I hate to tell you this Max, but EB and Gamestop don't really care much about new sales. The new stuff is basically there to appease those that want the latest games. I'm certain just off used titles that both companies could survive for years without carrying brand new games. The profit margin is THAT big on used. It's because of the low price of this used stock. Plus, unless you go to the 200 test stores giving cash, Most Gamestops and all EBs only give you store credit, which you -have to use in the store-. Basically it's a trade where you end up on the short end of the stick. They then sell the used games for mass profit (They always make at least double their cost back except for brand-brand-brand new games).

As much as this sucks, it's how the buisness goes. I realize the impersonal nature of it, and the cookie cutter monkey nature of the employees, I know this well as I am one (again). However it just ticks me off so much that the return policy was revoked indirectly due to people not wanting to reserve, it's dumb as hell. The lawsuit was dumb as hell, but with the revolving door justice system in America (again, another rant for a later date), the vocal minority lost and the majority loses. Again.

Ok....valid points. My responses:

The Sensomatic is a deterrent more than a protective device, and it WORKS. I've worked at stores with them...they're touchy but they do work. They're designed to go off occasionally to remind people that they're a deterrent and that walking through WILL get you caught. It would work in EB. The slimline cases make sense because I'm talking about only putting ONE copy of each game in a slimline on the shelf. Not every copy. Keep the extras in the back or behind the counter like they do now and no worries. I guess I wasn't clear with what I meant.

"Lack of preorders = less people with sealed new games.
Less people with sealed new games = people pissed about return policy.
People pissed about return policy = removal of policy."

This still doesn't follow for me. If you buy a non-sealed game, they put a sticker on it and if you removed the sticker it was the same as opening it. If it had the sticker, you could still bring it back just like a sealed one. I don't see how you get from less sealed games to the return policy. It doesn't make sense. If people buy less sealed games, then there are less to return which would mean less people mad about the policy. As I understand it, the policy was dumped because they were losing money when more and more people returned stuff cause "they didn't like it" and such, not due to any lack of sealed titles. You see why I don't understand your point there?

And IF they'd institute a judgement policy on whether to take returns or not (as in don't take them if someone is abusing the policy and has had fair warning) then they wouldn't have had a problem, but once again "corporate policy" gets int he way of doing things right.

Yeah, I'd heard that you lose the cash, but since I don't preorder, I didn't say anything about it. But basically that means that if I want ANY game (being as I only buy obscure titles mostly) than I have to put $5 down AND buy it at full price before I can return it to get my money back. That's a SERIOUS hassle. I can't change my mind because they'll take my $5, and when you buy enough games a year, that starts to become a rather large inconvenience. And now they're requiring a COUPLE weeks in advance for preorders, because allocation is done by corporate in advance due to the fact that it's based on preorders and they only get sent enough smaller titles for preorders....and usually ONE shelf copy, which gets opened. If I preorderd the day before, I MIGHT get the shelf copy before it got opened...or I'd get nothing.

I'm aware that used games are where the money is for EB, and frankly, I don't buy used games there cause they don't have conditions standards (not the ones I've been to). Hell, the local EBs make print offs of the covers and take in games with no manuals, then charge the same price! And I'd say 75% of the used discs I look at at EB are not in good enough shape for me to risk putting them in my systems at all. I get nicer games from pawn shops because they check the discs and have a higher standard. EB's policy is to take it in and put it on the shelf for whatever it scans at in the computer, regardless of how complete it is. At least, that's what it's like here. And when a used game is only $5 less than a new one....why not buy a new one? Their used prices aren't even competetive with other places. Between that and the fact that they give LOUSY trade in these days and no cash, I'd be willing to bet that their trade ins for used games start to drop in the next year or so. It's funny that EBs that give cash are "test stores" when it used to be that 4 years ago, ALL EBs gave cash! Too bad they probably are only giving half cash (as in half of what they'd give in credit).

In fact, some of the employees agree with me, and not ALL are cookie cutter, but they are powerless. And yeah, that alwsuit is bad and made a mess, but EB could make good if they wanted. They just don't care. And that's why I'm getting sick of dealing with them at all. They're losing the things that distinguished them from places like Wal-mart....better inventory and better service. I just don't see how they can be justified in the way they're conducting business and expect to keep customers long term.

[Kid Fenris]

Without debating on the wisdom of certain game retailers, I'd like to point out two things.

1) Atlus games have notoriously small print runs. It's one of the habits that allow the company to release niche-within-niche titles like Persona 2 and Sky Gunner without going out of business. If you want to buy an Atlus game, then preorder it, grab it from an internet seller, or be prepared to hunt for it.

2) It’s not that hard to keep track of the street dates of games that you’re interested in. Head over to ebgames.com, poke through their database for the titles you want, and cut-and-paste yourself a list of release dates. Anal? Yes. Geeky? Yes. Certain to keep you from missing out on a game you might want? Yes.

[Drexel923]

Oh...and the 48 hour thing is current EB corporate policy.

Just so you know, I wasn't saying that the comment you made was BS...I was just pointing out that the policy was crap.

[SoulBlazer]

Actually, GameFAQ has a much better release date system -- they tell you the day a game comes out in the STORES, not the day it SHIPS. That helps.

And you lose money at EB if you cancel a resveration? I canceled a few, the most recent two years ago, and got my money back. ANd eariler this year I transfered some pre-order depoists fine.

I'd love to see a store combine the EB/GameStop idea with the Wal-Mart idea -- a large store with a lot of new games the day they come out and also a huge used game section.

[maxlords]

Without debating on the wisdom of certain game retailers, I'd like to point out two things.

1) Atlus games have notoriously small print runs. It's one of the habits that allow the company to release niche-within-niche titles like Persona 2 and Sky Gunner without going out of business. If you want to buy an Atlus game, then preorder it, grab it from an internet seller, or be prepared to hunt for it.

2) It’s not that hard to keep track of the street dates of games that you’re interested in. Head over to ebgames.com, poke through their database for the titles you want, and cut-and-paste yourself a list of release dates. Anal? Yes. Geeky? Yes. Certain to keep you from missing out on a game you might want? Yes.


What's weird is that SOME of their games are really easy to find and other vanish very quickly. Persona 2 and Skygunner were both on shelves for quite some time, and very easy to find, but Disgaea has only been out a month and I can't find it anywhere at all. Ogre Battle PSX was on shelves for a long time too. But Tactics Ogre and Wizardry (PS2) both vanished very quickly, in the span of a couple months. What's weird is that this is TOO soon for Disgaea to vanish (the first run sold out), and also that I CALLED Atlus and they have a second print run that just shipped...so I know it's out there. And EB is saying it's not and they won't ever get it again, even though more are coming. The same thing happened with Tactics Ogre GBA, the first run sold out very fast and then after it was "hard to find and in demand" the second run hit and flooded the market, and it's still easy to get.

2. It's a pain in the ass to keep track of street dates for me. Partly because I forget that the games are coming out at all, and partly cause I'm rather busy. For Disgaea, I read a couple blurbs on it, forgot about it, and then I heard it was out and couldn't find it at all. For Boktai, same thing..I forgot it was coming completely. If I wrote down the street dates, they'd just change on me anyway, and if I don't hit the store RIGHT when the shipment comes and I didn't preorder, I don't get it anyway. So the street dates don't help me, partly cause I'll forget, and partly cause I don't often make it into town the day they come...and half the time they get here on a different day anyway. I've never been UNABLE to get a game I wanted, sometimes I just have to hunt them down a different way. And when I've called ON a release day I get "we can't talk right now, it's too busy" or "I don't know we haven't bothered to open today's shipment yet" as often as I get a helpful answer. Living 20 miles out of town, this is VERY inconvenient for me. Either way, according to EB, if I refuse to preorder, I won't get it even if I know the release date.

Personally, I'd rather pay $10+ more for my game than preorder it at EB at this point. I'm fed up with this preorder bullshit. Not to mention that a MINIMUM run for PS2 is something like 50,000 copies or more. There's a HUGE minimum for how many copies you have to print before SCEA will let you release a game. And just cause it gets scarce doesn't mean they're not out there. Most people just don't realize how MANY copies of a game come out these days. Print runs are never under 10,000 anymore on any games. It just doesn't happen. So there flat out shouldn't be a shortage of anything, but EB is creating shortages with the way they're ordering.

@Drexel923: Sorry if I sounded harsh, I know you were just saying that their policy sucked :) The whole retail gaming situation has me fed up, that's all!

[Achika]

Max, you have to understand that most people could have cared less about Disgaea. We are talking "most" people as the market that has bought Madden, GTA, and Soul Calibur. I think honestly, console RPG and strategy games have fallen into the minority, next to puzzle.

Sorry, but our corporate offices don't keep in mind collectors and the niche market. You say Sky Gunner and Persona 2 sat on the shelves for months, while no one bought them. Gamestop or EB has to look at that too and maybe determine that Disgaea might be the game that does the same thing (being as they are all from Atlus). Without pre-orders, corporate really doesn't know and doesn't want to take the chance on a game they will have to discount in a few months because no one is buying it.

I like to pre-order, get a "round about" date for games and forget about them. That way, I get a call and "you're game is here today". I only work one day every other week, so I dont have access to dates in our comps. all the time anymore. If you explain to them, I can come in 60 hours from now, they will USUALLY hold it for you.

PS--If you are still having trouble finding Disgaea, PM me and let me know and I can do some searching around here and find you a sealed one.

[Ed Oscuro]

You know what I get out of this thread? I need to find Persona 2, and some more Atlus games. They make good stuff, and all I've got is the Super Famicom Shin Megami Tensei!

[maxlords]

Well, that's the thing. Even if they know they're not going to fly off the shelves, they should at least get a few per store, or REPLENISH when one sells! That way they'd at least still have them. But they're not even replanishing when titles sell, and they give no way to get in more copies. No special ordering, nothing. And corporate hires experts that are the people who decide what to stock. They actually HIRE people to make that decision, and all those people are saying is "go by preorders." It's just....not fair to consumers. I know that I'm in the minority for the type of games I buy, but EB used to be the store that catered to that minority. I can buy Soul Caliber2 or the lates Madden game anywhere....but how many stores even stocked Disgaea? Not many.

And I still hate preordering unless there's goodies. Especially now that if I cancel they keep my $5. I also have very little income, which makes it hard for me to pick what to buy :) And I did hunt down a Disgaea.....someone off the boards here helped me out and it's on the way :)

But I'm still mad at EB.

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, that's the thing. Even if they know they're not going to fly off the shelves, they should at least get a few per store, or REPLENISH when one sells!

It would be fun for the bargin bin hunter, but I'm not a fan of those. Too many boxes bouncing around in that thing; even if they're stacked nicely they get beaten up. No, that's just a money sink for them. Now the question is...how much investment DO those bargain bins represent? Consider they were worth more when new, and how many titles do you have in there just from stuff that sells? Then again, I bet you a few copies of these obscure releases would sell; the major problem is ordering them. That's gotta take time out of somebody's day!

No, I think the system's in place and they don't even want to think about changing it.

[Drexel923]

And I still hate preordering unless there's goodies. Especially now that if I cancel they keep my $5.

Yeah thats another thing which must be EB only. I'm pretty sure gamestop just gives you the credit since thats what we hold anyway. Another stupid rule. All you are doing is paying for part of the game in advance, so if you don't buy the game then why should they keep the money. Its not like they couldn't just put it on the shelf...and thats what they do. Weird stuff.

[Griking]

I really should read a thread completely before I reply to it. Every point I made was already mentioned a few posts after the one I was replying to. :embarrassed:

I'll tell you what. My philosophy recently has been "screw all game stores". I've been buying most of my games at pawn shops recently. They even carry sealed games. I have no clue where they come from but they have them and they're generally $10 cheaper then both Gamestop and EB. And while I buy the majority of mt games used, the used prices at Gamestop and EB are a joke. Gee, I can buy a game for $44.99 instead if $49.99. BFD!!! I'll buy the same game at a pawn shop for $25.

[Delgrace]

Thanks for explaining that, Max.

I should have made the connection, but from the pitiful amount of used games EB has over here, I didn't it'd be that much of a profit venture.

[maxlords]

Thanks for explaining that, Max.

I should have made the connection, but from the pitiful amount of used games EB has over here, I didn't it'd be that much of a profit venture.


Even with a pitiful amount of used games, I'd wager they STILL make more off used ones than new ones. It's the same reason pawn shops are so successful. Buy low, sell high. With new merchandise you just can't do it, but you can with used!

[Balloon Fight]

I like Fry's for games. All are sealed, and they have a great return policy!

[maxlords]

I like Fry's for games. All are sealed, and they have a great return policy!

No Fry's here in Ontario. All we have are Microplay (lousy inventory), EB, Future Shop, Toys R Us, Best Buy, Wal-mart, and Zellers (lousy inventory).

We're so underpriviledged.

[Ed Oscuro]

I believe Fry's is a Southwestern US thing. It's also infamous in computer sales, so watch out...

[Lady Jaye]

You forgot Compucentre and CompuSmart. Granted, they're not associated with videogames as strongly as, say, EB, but they are in the market. (Yes, CompuSmart does sell videogames, it's been doing that since last Christmas season.)

[Jorpho]

For that matter, there's also Radio Shack, which (in Canada, at least) sells GBA and PS2 games.
________
AMATEUR SWINGERS (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/73/swingers/videos/1)

[maxlords]

For that matter, there's also Radio Shack, which (in Canada, at least) sells GBA and PS2 games.

Yep, but at very high prices. Heck, my Radio Shack sells USED PS2 and GBA games, but their used price is higher than retail.

Basically, for small releases, EB is my only local hope and they're giving me the finger every step of the way.

[YoshiM]

For the issue on "the last box" at EB, I'm surprised they don't just have a card with a color copy of the box on either side, ala Toys R Us. I've had the local EB LOSE a copy of a game that was supposed to in storage but somehow disappeared from the drawer.

Your EB seems to be in a sad state of affairs, so probably your best bet is to just not give them your money and shop elsewhere. I too am not a fan of preorders but am in a situation where I live that I don't have to worry about not getting a copy of a particular game as I can just go to another store and find it.

But then again I rarely buy brand new games (KOTOR, Zelda: Wind Waker, and Animal Crossing are it this year so far)

[Arcade Antics]

For the issue on "the last box" at EB, I'm surprised they don't just have a card with a color copy of the box on either side, ala Toys R Us. I've had the local EB LOSE a copy of a game that was supposed to in storage but somehow disappeared from the drawer.

Amen to that.

I've been in lots of game stores that "lose" games, new and used. They COULD just keep the games sealed and in sight behind the counter. People who want 'em can ask to see them or just buy them outright. There is NO GOOD reason to open the only copy of a new, sealed game just to put it on display. I don't buy any rationale for opening any game and putting the empty case on display. It makes no sense, and the REAL reason that stores do it, IMO, is that they're LAZY.

Pre-orders: if someone WANTS to pre-order a game, wonderful! End of story. Lots of us don't want to preorder games. :) I don't preorder games because (in my experience) the same moron who lost the disc to the game case on the shelf also screws up the preorders. I don't need extra hassle. I just need the game, and it's easier to walk into any store in a five mile radius and pick it up there, cheaper. :)

[Mr Mort]

I now understand how many of you feel about pre-orders and how you feel corporate america is deciding what games the public wants on the basis of pre-orders. Despite this, I'm still an advocate of pre-ordering, since from a collector's standpoint, it definately does have its advantages.

I know what games I want long before they're released. It's very seldom I purchase a game and it's not exactly what I expected. I'd like to think I'm a pretty good judge of what makes a good game, I know what I like, and thanks to previews and lots of researching, I can always get a good impression of a game prior to its release

Having said that here's why pre-ordering works for me:

-You are assured a copy of the game you want.
-You will receive the game on its release date. Example: If a game comes out on a Monday-Wednesday, major retailers like Zellers, Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Target, etc, usually won't put that game on the shelves until several days afterwards, usually on the weekends. If you want to get your game on the exact street-date, pre-ordering will assure you just that (although once or twice my local EB didn't even get enough copies to fill all their pre-orders)
-If you're looking for an obscure game, odds are Best Buy or Wal-Mart will not carry it, and in the few instances when they do, they sell out very quickly. Again, pre-ordering will assure you one.
-Paying for a game in advance is not always a bad thing. If I have the money for a game now, but I know my budget will be tighter in the future, I often pay for a game in full several weeks in advance. That way, when the game comes out, all I do is go in, give them my name, sign a receipt, and get my game.

IMO, it comes down to preference. If you know in advance what games you want, and don't change your mind often, pre-ordering is a good option. On the other hand, if you buy your games "on the fly", you might be better off with a large retailer.

This much is for certain: No matter how much we want them to gaming corporations like GameStop, EB, etc, do not care about hardcore gamers or collectors. Their biggest market is the casual gamer, and we are not a concern to corporate america. You just have to "fend for yourself" to reach your goals.

[maxlords]

See Mort, that's exactly WHY I refuse to preorder. EB used to care, and now they don't, so I feel they don't deserve my business. I've been going there less and less, and soon it will be not at all.

And the simple fact is, us harcore gamers DO buy enough to make a difference. And some of us even work in the industry (Not me but some of us)! And if we start taking a stand against this bullshit, then they will HAVE to listen or their sales will take a hit. It just takes enough irate people. I believe that any of you who are tired of the crap EB is pulling (and maybe other stores too) should REFUSE to preorder unless there are some sort of goodies from now on. I'm going to refuse to, and every time they ask, I'm going to tell them why. There's no excuse for it, or the way the counter people I've been dealing with have been behaving (although I know THAT is at a store level, not corporate). Take a stand and refuse to preorder, and it WILL make a difference. Especially since ordering at EB is based solely on preorders....it'll ruin their store inventories and casual gamers will go elsewhere eventually :)

[YoshiM]

I now understand how many of you feel about pre-orders and how you feel corporate america is deciding what games the public wants on the basis of pre-orders. Despite this, I'm still an advocate of pre-ordering, since from a collector's standpoint, it definately does have its advantages.

I know what games I want long before they're released. It's very seldom I purchase a game and it's not exactly what I expected. I'd like to think I'm a pretty good judge of what makes a good game, I know what I like, and thanks to previews and lots of researching, I can always get a good impression of a game prior to its release

Having said that here's why pre-ordering works for me:

-You are assured a copy of the game you want.
-You will receive the game on its release date. Example: If a game comes out on a Monday-Wednesday, major retailers like Zellers, Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Target, etc, usually won't put that game on the shelves until several days afterwards, usually on the weekends. If you want to get your game on the exact street-date, pre-ordering will assure you just that (although once or twice my local EB didn't even get enough copies to fill all their pre-orders)
-If you're looking for an obscure game, odds are Best Buy or Wal-Mart will not carry it, and in the few instances when they do, they sell out very quickly. Again, pre-ordering will assure you one.
-Paying for a game in advance is not always a bad thing. If I have the money for a game now, but I know my budget will be tighter in the future, I often pay for a game in full several weeks in advance. That way, when the game comes out, all I do is go in, give them my name, sign a receipt, and get my game.

Thing is sometimes (or in my experience a LOT of times) stores don't get their pre-order allotment. So when I go in when I used to pre-order I'd get a shrug and a "sorry, all out. If you came in sooner, you'd have gotten your copy but we gave it to another preorder." This was when I used to buy games out of town as we didn't have a game shop that was local. As Maxlords I believe stated, you get X amount of time to get your game or you may not get it until the next shipment, whenever that is. Hence why I don't preorder anymore.

I find preorders, especially on popular titles, to be treacherous taunting entities when a game is pushed back. You paid your dough and all you have is a piece of paper laughing at you as you won't get your game until later. I get teased enough seeing the 100+ hi-res shots of the game on a Gamespy or IGN and I don't need this added pressure, thank you. :D

Around by me, release dates at the superstores are usually spot on. EB sometimes gets them early and puts them out if there is no strict street date but Wal-Mart usually has the game out on launch day.

[Felixthegamer]

Personally, I stopped shopping at EB a while ago. The last game I bought there was Animal crossing when it first came out. There are several reasons why which have been brought up already, so I'll skip it. Look around and find some other stores you like more and buy from them. I would like to see some changes from EB, but I doubt it will happen. They do what they do and are making enough money to keep doing it without changing.

[Kid Fenris]

I don't see what's so excruciating about pre-ordering. If you want a game, it makes sense to place an order for it prior to its release date. Should you fail to find a semi-obscure title after it hits shelves, the store isn't to blame if you never made your interest clear before you walked in the door and demanded Disgaea or Bombastic or Border Down.

I also fail to see how pre-ordering a game is more trouble than hunting it through regular retail. If you're reserved a game, all you need do is walk into the store, present a receipt, and walk out with the game that was waiting for you. Finding the same title at a larger retailer may seem an easier task, but if you have to drive to every store within a five-mile radius, is that really more convenient than the relatively slight risk of an EB or GameStop losing your pre-order?

And if the release date is pushed back, it applies to every retailer. In those cases, your reserve slip is just as much of a reminder of something to anticipate as it is a tease about what you don't have.

Call for a boycott if you must, but I'll just go out and pre-order Sword of Mana.

[SoulBlazer]

And to add to what Kid Fenris said, when you pre-order, you are PROMISED that game as long as you come in to pick it up within 48 hours. It does'nt matter WHEN you come in during that time (it normaly starts when you are called) but you can come in ANY TIME during those two days and they HAVE to have the game for you. Any store that does'nt do that I would firebomb and never vist again.

And many stores will hold the game for more then 48 hours if you just ask.

Sounds like some of you have had bad experiences. Blame the store, not the chain. My local EB treats me very well, otherwise I would'nt do all my pre-orders and most of my used game shopping there.

[Mr Mort]

I also fail to see how pre-ordering a game is more trouble than hunting it through regular retail. If you're reserved a game, all you need do is walk into the store, present a receipt, and walk out with the game that was waiting for you. Finding the same title at a larger retailer may seem an easier task, but if you have to drive to every store within a five-mile radius, is that really more convenient than the relatively slight risk of an EB or GameStop losing your pre-order?


That's how I feel. I don't want to drive all over town looking for a copy of game X on its release date, when I can just walk in to my local EB, present the receipt for my pre-order and walk out with it. Especially with obscure games, I don't want to risk it, as they're even harder to find.

I also prefer stores like Gamespot, Game Crazy, and EB because they specialize in games & gaming acessories, more than a place like Best Buy, Wal-Mart, etc. Try looking for a 1 or 2 year old game in a Major Retailer, and see how much luck you have (unless it's part of a greatest hits series).

Don't get me wrong, EB is far from perfect. I've pre-ordered several dozens of games with them, and I can recall about 3 times, when they didn't get enough copies to fill pre-orders, and I got jipped. I do have a massive problem with that, as I paid for the game in full, and I didn't get it on the release day. The staff is not always that courteous or knowledgeable, but you can get that at any kind of retail store.

[Griking]

I have no problem with pre orders. I just take offense to being forced to pre order if I want a certain game. Pre orders used to just be an assurance that you'd get a game as soon as it was released. Worst case senario if you didn't pre order would be that you'd have to wait a week or so until the next delivery came in. Lately its getting to the point where you have to pre order if you want a certain game at all.

EB and Gamestop are videogame retail stores. They're supposed to have games in stock, that's why they have brick and mortar retail stores all over the country and aren't mail order only. And if they stop carrying games in stock in favor of pre-orders only then they will loose ton of business to retailers like Circuit City, Target and ToysRUs who will keep titles in stock.

How would you feel if you walked into a computer retail store and bought a new printer only to be told that you should pre order your print cartridges if you wanted to be sure that you would be able to get them. Would you buy the printer there? Me neither?

[maxlords]

That's exactly it, Griking! We're being FORCED to preorder titles that they should stock normally, and they're insisting that EVERYTHING should be preordered. The whole point of going to EB over others stores is that their specialty IS gaming! And now they're making it to be such a chore to buy games that it's becoming easier and cheaper to go elsewhere rather than to do business with them. I shouldn't have to preorder Boktai (a fairly major Konami release) at EB to get a sealed one. It JUST came out...it should be readily available. I shouldn't have to preorder Sword of Mana...it's a major title from Squenix (couldn't resist)! It should be plastered all over shelves for a week or two after release easy, if not a month or more, like FF tactics Advance!

If your EB is still good, then you're lucky, but at this rate, policy is going to force them to lose quality eventually, whether yours has good employees or not. I should NOT have to preorder most games. I should be able to go get them when I want them within a month or two of release, just like ANY other retail store would have for any other product unless it had a limited release. And just so you all know...most Atlus games DON'T have a limited release! They just get ignored until they sell out and then people suddenly decide they want them and can't find them anymore. I've NEVER had a problem finding ANY Atlus title on the shelf until Disgaea...not ONCE.

Anyway, the mentality I'm hearing from a lot of people is "It doesn't affect me, so what do I care?" Well, I'm telling you, if this continues, it WILL affect all us collectors and hardcore gamers. If you want to keep preordering, so be it, but don't be naive and think that it's not a problem. It most certainly is, and it just hasn't affected you yet. There's no reason that we have to settle for the way EB is pushing preorders, treating customers (I know, not in every store, but enough that a lot of people know what I mean), and dealing with display copies. None. It's inexcusable for any reason.

[nesuser2]

not that anybody is going to make it all the way to my reply. but game stores suck, for true gamers.......game stores suck. unless you want the newest football game or the newest NBA live.........and you want simultaneously ripped off on accessories and used trash that they don't even wash the used food off of........game stores suck. unless you find one privately owned or something, they're all jerks and idiots. end of story.........

o yeah, and the display type boxes, i hate that.......not only do you get a beat up display box but there's a FU_)#*_#$nG sticker on the front......if i wanted stickers all over the case i'd go buy a rental. lots of times you can get the stickers off......but let's face it, you can still see that a sticker once lived on the front of your case......and those little kinds of things bother me........

furthermore.......hah.....with ex-rentals, go to movie gallery sometime, and check out the discs there. about half or better have a movie gallery clear sticker over the entire top of the disc. if this bothers you like me, peal the sticker off..........if it peels the label or damages anything, just take it back and ask them why it's all messed up and won't play......act stupid. they'll say a renter did it and give you your money back. I HATE STICKERS

[Delgrace]

Just thought I'd throw another something in...

The ones that do not preorder ARE the casual gamers. And yes, I believe this is the target EB goes for, so they are gonna end up with a sales hit in the future. I mean, think about it. Casual gamer is strolling through the mall and sees an EB. "Hmm. I've got $50 on me, mebbe I'll go get a game." Walks in, bam. He can't get the game he wants because he didn't preorder it.

I can't speak for everyone, but I can safely say that every time I buy a game, it is pretty much an impulse buy. Sure, I think about getting the game, I read reviews and check the coverage, but the MOMENT I decide to buy it is up in the air. Maybe I'll get it tomorrow, or the day after, or maybe the day after that. Advertisements for videogames over here in Australia are pathetic. Seriously pathetic. We have maybe, at the most, 2 ads for games at any one time. The casual gamer probably has no idea when the game he wants is coming out. He, put simply, is just gonna buy it when he happens past an EB with $50 in hand.

[Kid Fenris]

And just so you all know...most Atlus games DON'T have a limited release! They just get ignored until they sell out and then people suddenly decide they want them and can't find them anymore. I've NEVER had a problem finding ANY Atlus title on the shelf until Disgaea...not ONCE.

I beg to differ. I've heard from several sources that Atlus games have comparatively small print runs, and I've often had trouble locating games such as Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis, Tsugunai, and Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure. It's thus my suspicion that Atlus games do, in fact, get limited releases. You've had an easy time of finding their titles because they don't tend to be widely popular. Disgaea could be the biggest hit they're had in years, if word of mouth is any indication.


Anyway, the mentality I'm hearing from a lot of people is "It doesn't affect me, so what do I care?" Well, I'm telling you, if this continues, it WILL affect all us collectors and hardcore gamers. If you want to keep preordering, so be it, but don't be naive and think that it's not a problem. It most certainly is, and it just hasn't affected you yet. There's no reason that we have to settle for the way EB is pushing preorders, treating customers (I know, not in every store, but enough that a lot of people know what I mean), and dealing with display copies. None. It's inexcusable for any reason.

As long as I preorder the games that I want, I am guaranteed a copy of that game. That's fair. If you walk into a store and ask for a game without reserving it in advance, the store is not obligated to have that game. That's also fair. You pay your money, or you take your chances.

I think it's naive to suggest that "Any store that sells games should have a brand new copy of whatever game I request on the spot." That's not the way it works. Games can sell out, games can be in short supply, and games can be hard to find shortly after they're released. It's all part of collecting, and part of liking niche titles such as Disgaea.

[Funcojoe]

I worked for Funco/GStop for 2 years and it's people like Max that drove alot of us who worked there to quit the retail scene. I mean it sounds like you have some serious OCDisorder going on dude, get over it, if thats what the companies want to do, deal with it, or better yet don't shop there. Thats a line we all used at my old store alot, go somewhere else and get it, it makes working in retail so much easier when you don't have to deal with people like Max. The kinda person who thinks the cuztomer is always right, and whats with calling these people who work there trolls and whatever other witty names you can think of, thats ignorant bro. I tell ya what if I had to deal with a customer like you I would have asked you ever damn time you walked in the store to pre order something just to get on your nerves, and I'm sure the people who work at the stores your talking about cannot stand you, but fear of speaking out because of maybe losing thier jobs. I had the fortunate situation of being in the mindset that working at a Gamestop isnt the end all be all job, so I could care less if I got fired, so I spoke my mind alot to weirdo's like you. Almost was in a few fist fights as well, and guess what buddy I didnt get introuble for that, we called the cops on those few that took it that far, but god I woul have loved it if they were waiting for me after work so I coul take out my frustrations of working retail on them.

My point to you is, stop complaining and deal with it, life is short, make the most of it,.

[Oobgarm]

It may have been asked already, but I'm not going back and reading through this entire thread hunting for it.

If you want the game, why not preorder it? Aren't you going to buy it anyway? At least you're guaranteed one.

The truth is that the games market is run by the big publishers and the AAA titles. Retail outlets know that they don't have to take a gamble when it comes to those. You could package up feces and put "Grand Theft Auto" or "Halo" along with the warning "this case contains real, actual poop inside" on the box, and it would sell. On the other hand, stuff like Disgaea, Boktai, and numerous other RPGs are a gamble. They don't have the drawing power that the big hitters do. So compaines are unlikely to hoard a ton of copies looking for that "sleeper hit". It's just not smart business to stock a lot of copies of something that's just not guaranteed to sell through.

BTW, Boktai has a low initial print run due to the solar sensor. Pre-ordering that was almost a necessity, as I understand that more won't be available until late this year/early next year.

Allow me to say this:

Game stores and other retail outlets do NOT care about what you want. They're most concerned with the bottom line, and requiring a pre-order on a B-C level title is their way of

1. gauging interest
2. ensuring they don't end up with overstock

Does EB care that you don't have a copy of Disgaea? Hell no. They got their money for the copies they sold, why should they care? I get so incredibly tired of people who want stores to cater to their individual needs, and I'm not just talking about game stores.

Yeah, it bites that the "Cold Machine"™ or corporate mindset has taken over what used to be a more personalized industry. But that's the way it is, and complaining about it in an online forum isn't going to do any good. I understand that it feels good to vent frustration, but at legnth debates about the evils of Gamestop/EB are tiresome and filled with the same crap over and over again.

That is all.

[Griking]

I worked for Funco/GStop for 2 years and it's people like Max that drove alot of us who worked there to quit the retail scene. I mean it sounds like you have some serious OCDisorder going on dude, get over it, if thats what the companies want to do, deal with it, or better yet don't shop there.

Well I've been buying videogames for over 20 years and it's this attitude by retailers who don't give a s#&t about their customers that cause me to take my business elsewhere. Hey, if Gamestop or EB doesn't want my money well then I'm sure that Best Buy and other retailers will.


Thats a line we all used at my old store alot, go somewhere else and get it, it makes working in retail so much easier when you don't have to deal with people like Max.

BTW, I currently work in retail myself and if I'd ever said that to a customer not only would I loose a customer but I'd most likely loose my job as well. In this era of competition if you aren't willing to take care of your customer someone else WILL.


The kinda person who thinks the cuztomer is always right, and whats with calling these people who work there trolls and whatever other witty names you can think of, thats ignorant bro. I tell ya what if I had to deal with a customer like you I would have asked you ever damn time you walked in the store to pre order something just to get on your nerves, and I'm sure the people who work at the stores your talking about cannot stand you, but fear of speaking out because of maybe losing thier jobs. I had the fortunate situation of being in the mindset that working at a Gamestop isnt the end all be all job, so I could care less if I got fired , so I spoke my mind alot to weirdo's like you. Almost was in a few fist fights as well, and guess what buddy I didnt get introuble for that, we called the cops on those few that took it that far, but god I woul have loved it if they were waiting for me after work so I coul take out my frustrations of working retail on them.

In all honesty, I find true enjoyment in firing employees like you.

[Funcojoe]

In all honesty I was an Assistant Manager at Gamestop, and my reserve and sub #'s were off the charts, so there was no way any one, not even the lame a$$ 's who were above me (manager, and district Manager) would even think about firing the best salesmen in one of the top stores in the district,lol. So in case you think I'm some punk kid, here's a little FYI for ya, I'm currently 24 yrs old and work in the dental industry.

[maxlords]

I beg to differ. I've heard from several sources that Atlus games have comparatively small print runs, and I've often had trouble locating games such as Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis, Tsugunai, and Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure. It's thus my suspicion that Atlus games do, in fact, get limited releases. You've had an easy time of finding their titles because they don't tend to be widely popular. Disgaea could be the biggest hit they're had in years, if word of mouth is any indication.

That's a distinct possibility. Thanks for pointing it out. I do know for a fact that Sony does have a minimum print run for a game to be released on PS1 or PS2 and it's over 10,000 copies (though I'm not sure of the exact number). They may be low in comparison to other releases, but even 10,000 is a lot of copies really. It would make it a short supply with the sheer number of gamers that buy games these days however.


As long as I preorder the games that I want, I am guaranteed a copy of that game. That's fair. If you walk into a store and ask for a game without reserving it in advance, the store is not obligated to have that game. That's also fair. You pay your money, or you take your chances.

I think it's naive to suggest that "Any store that sells games should have a brand new copy of whatever game I request on the spot." That's not the way it works. Games can sell out, games can be in short supply, and games can be hard to find shortly after they're released. It's all part of collecting, and part of liking niche titles such as Disgaea.

I don't think it's unfair to want a store that built it's reputation carrying what no one else did, to continue to carry what no one else does to justify their higher pricing. I'm not saying that game stores should cater to MY personal tastes. What I'm saying is that they should carry at least a minimal stock of sealed non-AAA titles, and replenish them when they sell out. EB is only getting 1-2 copies here with no replenish. I don't have a Mom and Pop game store I can get whatever I want from here like I did back in Oregon. Back home, the store just ordered in whatever I wanted. I knew I'd get it cause he knew what I liked and ordered it cause it would sell. The only game stores here I have are EB and Microplay, and Microplay doesn't hardly have shelf stock cause they specialize in rentals and used. And with the way EB is treating me, I'd rather pay a premium price somewhere else than preorder with them.

[maxlords]

I worked for Funco/GStop for 2 years and it's people like Max that drove alot of us who worked there to quit the retail scene. I mean it sounds like you have some serious OCDisorder going on dude, get over it, if thats what the companies want to do, deal with it, or better yet don't shop there. Thats a line we all used at my old store alot, go somewhere else and get it, it makes working in retail so much easier when you don't have to deal with people like Max. The kinda person who thinks the cuztomer is always right, and whats with calling these people who work there trolls and whatever other witty names you can think of, thats ignorant bro. I tell ya what if I had to deal with a customer like you I would have asked you ever damn time you walked in the store to pre order something just to get on your nerves, and I'm sure the people who work at the stores your talking about cannot stand you, but fear of speaking out because of maybe losing thier jobs. I had the fortunate situation of being in the mindset that working at a Gamestop isnt the end all be all job, so I could care less if I got fired, so I spoke my mind alot to weirdo's like you. Almost was in a few fist fights as well, and guess what buddy I didnt get introuble for that, we called the cops on those few that took it that far, but god I woul have loved it if they were waiting for me after work so I coul take out my frustrations of working retail on them.

My point to you is, stop complaining and deal with it, life is short, make the most of it,.

You are completely full of it. No respectable store would let you get away with saying stuff like that to customers. You'd have been fired in a heartbeat, expecially with almost getting into fistfights! What is that store, the mafia's Gamestop? EB here has treated me like crap, and I feel put out by it, with good reason. You think I should just bend over and take it? I think not. I don't call counterfolk trolls to their faces, and never would. I might call YOU that from the sound of it, but I'd never do that to a counter worker....hell, I worked counters for over 6 years straight. I'm not even remotely ignorant, and I ONLY said that out of my frustration, and only on the boards here where no one SHOULD be taking it seriously. And I'm not your "bro". I know that customers expect all sorts of things that are just flat out impossible. But EB not only called me (and Atlus) a liar to my face but also has been changing policies steadily and now function as heavily biases against the consumer for their own profit. I don't like it at all, and I'm speaking my mind about it. You don't like that...don't read it. You want me to be easy on a game store that doesn't care about customers just cause you worked at one just like it? Hell no.

About you not even caring about your job, or if you got fired, that's exactly the sort of mentality that I'm hitting at the counters. Maybe not QUITE that dumb, but close. The people just don't care at all if their customers are dissatisfied anymore. And places like EB are hiring people like this guy, that don't care about their jobs, or the customers, and often are talking out their asses when you ask them questions. It's frustrating to come into a specialyt store like EB and have most of the people working there know NOTHING about games. Not just only know a little, but actually know NOTHING. And the companies hire part time cause they expect high turnover, and you get stuck with more and more people that don't know anything and don't care.

It also just so happens that some of my friends work at those very same stores and we hang out outside of their work....going over to play games, watch movies, etc. They don't ALL follow the party line like the people that I was dealing with that have irritated me so much. And they sure as hell don't hate me...we hang out quite frequently! And even the employees agree with me outside of work..the customers are getting the shaft, pure and simple.

I'm sure as hell not going to stop complaining. That's the same as saying "I don't care" and I do. The only way actual change is affected is by bringing problems to the forefront. If you DON'T speak up about a problem, it doesn't get examined and never gets solved. This is of course the least I can be doing, but nonetheless, it's something.

And I don't care where you worked or what your sales numbers are, how old you are or anything else. You're still acting like a punk. The companies I've worked for would fire you anyway, and rightly so. Any company that keeps a MANAGER on with an attitude like that has bad problems already. There's no way to justify your attitude.

[maxlords]

If you want the game, why not preorder it? Aren't you going to buy it anyway? At least you're guaranteed one.

Actually, I didn't know it was coming out. I don't keep track of release dates that are constantly shifting and I didn't know if I wanted the game at all until I read some reviews and checked out some screen shots and cinemas. I'd actually forgotten Disgaea was coming out this month until 6 days after it's release. Plus, as I've stated, I'm kind of against preordering in the first place, but mainly it's cause I don't know if I'm going to buy a game until I'm in the store....I don't plan most of my gaming purchases.


The truth is that the games market is run by the big publishers and the AAA titles. Retail outlets know that they don't have to take a gamble when it comes to those. You could package up feces and put "Grand Theft Auto" or "Halo" along with the warning "this case contains real, actual poop inside" on the box, and it would sell. On the other hand, stuff like Disgaea, Boktai, and numerous other RPGs are a gamble. They don't have the drawing power that the big hitters do. So compaines are unlikely to hoard a ton of copies looking for that "sleeper hit". It's just not smart business to stock a lot of copies of something that's just not guaranteed to sell through.

True. But I'm not asking them to stock a lot, only a couple SEALED copies of them, and replenish with a couple more when they sell.


BTW, Boktai has a low initial print run due to the solar sensor. Pre-ordering that was almost a necessity, as I understand that more won't be available until late this year/early next year.

I didn't know that. Good info :) But I didn't even realize it was out this month, I just saw it in the store and decided I wanted it.



Game stores and other retail outlets do NOT care about what you want. They're most concerned with the bottom line, and requiring a pre-order on a B-C level title is their way of

1. gauging interest
2. ensuring they don't end up with overstock

Does EB care that you don't have a copy of Disgaea? Hell no. They got their money for the copies they sold, why should they care? I get so incredibly tired of people who want stores to cater to their individual needs, and I'm not just talking about game stores.

Yeah, it bites that the "Cold Machine"™ or corporate mindset has taken over what used to be a more personalized industry. But that's the way it is, and complaining about it in an online forum isn't going to do any good. I understand that it feels good to vent frustration, but at legnth debates about the evils of Gamestop/EB are tiresome and filled with the same crap over and over again.

That is all.

There's another problem. All stores factor in overstock as part of their cost of doing business. For a store NOT to deal with overstock causes these exact problems and other stores REALIZE that they'd lose customers if they didn't do it. You can't run a business with NO overstock and expect to get 100% sell through on everything. It just doesn't work unless you understock everything, and then peoiple go elsewhere cause you're constantly running out. And teh companies HIRE people just to figure out what to stock. They pay people good money to try and decide what to carry in in-store inventory, and those people are GOOD at it....so why suddenly decide to judge solely off preorders when you have corporate buyers? It makes no sense.

As for venting, I'm AM venting, but I'm also trying to explain to people WHY this is a problem. And this is the sort of community that needs that information. I'm also calling the companies and complaining myself, not complaining to hear myself speak. I have a problem with them, a lot of other people do, and it's a representation of a larger problem industrywide. I think that's worth our time, and so do a lot of other people, judging from this thread.

[Griking]

In all honesty I was an Assistant Manager at Gamestop, and my reserve and sub #'s were off the charts, so there was no way any one, not even the lame a$$ 's who were above me (manager, and district Manager) would even think about firing the best salesmen in one of the top stores in the district,lol. So in case you think I'm some punk kid, here's a little FYI for ya, I'm currently 24 yrs old and work in the dental industry.

I said what I said based on the attitude that you had and your lack of caring, not your qualifications. In my company your numbers can be off the charts but if you didn't respect your customer's you'd be gone.

[Oobgarm]

All stores factor in overstock as part of their cost of doing business. For a store NOT to deal with overstock causes these exact problems and other stores REALIZE that they'd lose customers if they didn't do it. You can't run a business with NO overstock and expect to get 100% sell through on everything. It just doesn't work unless you understock everything, and then peoiple go elsewhere cause you're constantly running out. And teh companies HIRE people just to figure out what to stock. They pay people good money to try and decide what to carry in in-store inventory, and those people are GOOD at it....so why suddenly decide to judge solely off preorders when you have corporate buyers? It makes no sense.

I'll jump back in here to say something in addition to what I said earlier.

A lot of stocking issues depend on the location/business of particular stores. As a general rule, bigger stores get more stuff. They'll put a good bulk of the copies in the bigger stores, and divvy up the leftovers to the smaller ones. In the end, the customer gets the shaft if their store doesn't have it. It sucks, yes, but a vast majority of the gaming market is made up of casual-moderate gamers. They usually only go for the stuff that they read/hear about, and that generally comprises of the huge titles, with the occasional sleeper hit. We hardcore gamers don't make up as much of the market as you'd think, but I think that WE are the ones that help drive the industry's innovation. You think the average person is going to buy Boktai? Magic Pengel? REZ? No sir. Those titles aren't/weren't exactly available everywhere, and the hardcore demographic is what those games are aimed squarely at.

Not all titles should be based off of preorder. I'm not 100% sure if EB does this as well, but Gamestop breaks titles down into letter grades, much like school (at least here in the US, I don't know about you Canadians ;) ):

A-The big hitters, EA Sports titles, big movie licenses, etc.

B-Most 1st party software, a large bulk of the games are in this class

C-Rez, Amplitude, smaller titles from Koei, Atlus, and most of the "unique" games

D-Games from small or unestablished companies and most budget software

E-Known crap games, bottom of the barrel stuff

Most of the gaming populace is after the A and B categories, while most of the hardcore folks will fall into the C category. While some places get the "C" games, a bunch of them are pre-order only. Titles in the C-D-E categories are considered to be a gamble, save for most of the budget stuff-some stores will get them, others won't. Those people who are GOOD at selecting what to stock are good at it from a business sense-looking for the most money, and not for general consumer interest. I am of the firm belief that 95% of the employees of major chain stores above the "manager" level do not have a passionate, or even the slightest interest in games. They go for the "Hot Titles".

On a related note, we just got a list of games at Gamestop that not all stores are carrying, just the big money stores. Sadly, we're not included in that list, and there were more than a few games I wanted in that list. If I want them, I'm gonna have to drive. I don't particularly care for that proposition, but it also makes me reconsider my desire for those games. Is really worth the effort to go get them, if the store is a half hour away?



As for venting, I'm AM venting, but I'm also trying to explain to people WHY this is a problem. And this is the sort of community that needs that information. I'm also calling the companies and complaining myself, not complaining to hear myself speak. I have a problem with them, a lot of other people do, and it's a representation of a larger problem industrywide. I think that's worth our time, and so do a lot of other people, judging from this thread.

I'm glad to see that you're voicing your opinion to the store. While I may not totallly agree with you on the subject, I'm happy to see that you're trying to make a difference, and not just venting here. Kudos.

@Funcojoe, whatever man. Folks like you are the reason that we game store employees get a bum rap. You're not brining anything useful to the conversation here. Kindly piss off.

[maxlords]

I called EB and talked to their customer complain/service line today. They took down all my complaints. The guy I talked to was VERY nice, which is rare for a customer service guy that fields complaints. If anyone else has a problem with EB like I do, I URGE you to call them at 1-800-800-5166. I talked to a guy named Alan at extension # 4008. He also told me that ANYONE with problems with EB should call...and that all those complaints get sent to the managers, disctrict managers, and other people. He was very polite, and said that EB really does want to hear if people have problems, and that the more people that complain, the more likely change is. Nice to hear that from a corporate person for a change!

Anyway, he DID tell me that EB doesn't keep your $5 if you cancel your preorder to his knowledge, and that if they did do that, to call and complain immediately.

Basically, he did say that calling makes a difference. He also didn't know how exactly the preordering/inventory thing works, and said that EB might call me in 3-4 business days if they wanted to know more about my complaints. Anyway, the more calls the better, so if anyone else is bothered by any of this, by all means, take 5 or 10 minutes and CALL them! They do take complaints into account apparently, whether that's the truth or not remains to be seen.

[Arcade Antics]

If you want the game, why not preorder it? Aren't you going to buy it anyway? At least you're guaranteed one.

(not picking on Oobgarm here, many people have asked this Q and I just wanted to throw in my two zenny ;) )

Why not? Because I can get it cheaper somewhere else on the very same day. WithOUT putting down a "deposit" and withOUT wasting my time filling out forms. :) And withOUT waiting in line at GameStop or wherever behind thirty soccer moms and whiny brats when the game DOES come in.

Example: GTA:VC. I didn't preorder it. GameStop insisted that I should, because it would sell out, etc., etc. I said "thanks but no thanks, I'll just waltz into Best Buy and pick it up on release day."

The GS clerk mocked me, but on release day, I waltzed into Best Buy (no foolin' - I actually waltzed in through the door and all the way back to the game aisle) and picked up GTA:VC. I was in and out of the store in 90 seconds. And the game cost a whopping $39.99, ten dollars less than it sold for at GameStop. All without a preorder. :D

And 99 times out of 100, other stores have the game in stock, whether it's GTA:VC or Bombastic. While I'm technically not guaranteed that someone else will have the game, I'll take those odds. And for the one time that someone else doesn't have the game, I'm fine with waiting for it until I see it. Batting .990 without preordering is just fine with me. We're out hunting for old games anyway, why not hunt for a new one once in a while. Preordering just isn't for me.

[SoulBlazer]

I think pre-ordering is important for those games that fall into the C and D catagories. If it's in the A or B, the only reason to pre-order is if they have a bonus that comes with it. That's my belief on the whole system. :D

[Oobgarm]

Why not? Because I can get it cheaper somewhere else on the very same day. WithOUT putting down a "deposit" and withOUT wasting my time filling out forms. :) And withOUT waiting in line at GameStop or wherever behind thirty soccer moms and whiny brats when the game DOES come in.

And Gamestop fails to realize that many folks use that mentality when it comes to preorders. x_x Don't even get me going about that.

I'm just offering a view from the business end. :)

I think that preorders are aimed at those "must have NOW" people, such as myself. If you're that type of person, then preordering is a good idea (provided that the game isn't cheaper elsewhere).

If you're like AA and can wait for a game, then not preordering is the way to go.

Whatever your choice, right on.

[Kid Fenris]

I think pre-ordering is important for those games that fall into the C and D catagories. If it's in the A or B, the only reason to pre-order is if they have a bonus that comes with it. That's my belief on the whole system. :D

Precisely. You'd have a hard time NOT finding a high-profile release like Vice City at a large retailer on its launch day (woe to ye to seek it there the day after) but those same stores didn't have Guilty Gear X2, Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis, Ikaruga, Lufia: The Ruins of Lore, Gekioh, Sol Divide, Mobile Light Force, Rez, Shantae (BUY IT NOW!), Suikoden III, Disgaea, and other niche releases until at least a week after their scheduled debuts, if at all. And it's a pain to keep checking back or calling.

[maxlords]

Precisely. You'd have a hard time NOT finding a high-profile release like Vice City at a large retailer on its launch day (woe to ye to seek it there the day after) but those same stores didn't have Guilty Gear X2, Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis, Ikaruga, Lufia: The Ruins of Lore, Gekioh, Sol Divide, Mobile Light Force, Rez, Shantae (BUY IT NOW!), Suikoden III, Disgaea, and other niche releases until at least a week after their scheduled debuts, if at all. And it's a pain to keep checking back or calling.

See, I picked up Suikoden 3 on release day at Wal-Mart. It was easy to get here for the first couple weeks. Got TO: KNights of Lodis there too. I haven't had a problem finding any of those titles except Shantae *sniff* Personally, I ususally don't bother to get in until a couple days after launch and I usually STILL find the stuff!

[Kid Fenris]

Precisely. You'd have a hard time NOT finding a high-profile release like Vice City at a large retailer on its launch day (woe to ye to seek it there the day after) but those same stores didn't have Guilty Gear X2, Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis, Ikaruga, Lufia: The Ruins of Lore, Gekioh, Sol Divide, Mobile Light Force, Rez, Shantae (BUY IT NOW!), Suikoden III, Disgaea, and other niche releases until at least a week after their scheduled debuts, if at all. And it's a pain to keep checking back or calling.

See, I picked up Suikoden 3 on release day at Wal-Mart. It was easy to get here for the first couple weeks. Got TO: KNights of Lodis there too. I haven't had a problem finding any of those titles except Shantae *sniff*

So you DIDN'T have a problem finding Disgaea?

Anyway, if you can get all of those titles without going to a specialty store, you're evidently in more convenient surroundings than I. There are Wal-Marts, Best Buys, Circuit Cities, and whatnot all around my neck of the woods, and they rarely seem to stock niche games regularly. Perhaps a denser population includes more people in search of semi-obscure titles.

[maxlords]

So you DIDN'T have a problem finding Disgaea?

Anyway, if you can get all of those titles without going to a specialty store, you're evidently in more convenient surroundings than I. There are Wal-Marts, Best Buys, Circuit Cities, and whatnot all around my neck of the woods, and they rarely seem to stock niche games regularly. Perhaps a denser population includes more people in search of semi-obscure titles.

I couldn't find Disgaea at the LOCAL stores. But it's easy to get elsewhere if I want to drive 40 minutes. I can get most all of those titles without a specialty store locally. Disgaea I couldn't, and Wizardry I couldn't, and that's about it. We have a fairly dense population here, but it doesn't seem to get picked clean too fast, except at EB.