XBOX has been changed without MS telling anyone..

[Raedon]

The Xbox was changed and the new version is already in stores.. Unlike the PS2 that has a code on the box to differenciate the versions the Xbox does not. The changes were made to lower costs and threwart the new Xbox mod chips.. Seems that all these people wanting to run MAME are now stuck with a $89.99 mod chip that doesn't work. The change happened a while ago without announcement.. way to get a fan base Bill.. :fist:

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-959084.html?tag=fd_top

[NvrMore]

Gotta love M$ :roll:

[congobongo]

Hey Raedon,

Why don't you just make your signature. "I hate Microsoft" It's not obvious enough yet.

[Arrrhalomynn]

Wasn't this in the news a couple of weeks already? I've read something about Microsoft using a newer chipset or something.

[Raedon]

I don't hate Microsoft, I just hate their business practices and lack of respect for anyone or anything.

If it wasn't for Microsoft I might actually feel bad about downloading Mp3's and movies.. but sense I started pirating DOS 5.0+ because I refused to pay $100.00 for the same thing over and over I have no moral hang ups about stealing digital property now.

Hell, Microsoft has saved me thousands of dollars on my entertainment for the last 13 years.. It does upset me when anyone changes their products without telling anyone about it. Sony dies it right, Giving you a U/N for any ps2 change.

[Raedon]

Wasn't this in the news a couple of weeks already? I've read something about Microsoft using a newer chipset or something.

it might have been.. I was on vacation for a while in Santa Fe and didn't get online more then 30 minutes for a week. Sorry if this is a repost here at DP.

[Sylentwulf]

I REALLY don't see why microsoft should tell ANYONE when they do a version change, and Sony is STUPID for announcing it. And I am the biggest Sony fan, MS Anti-fan you're gonna find.

You burn games, tough shit for you. I hope you bought 5 of the things and they're ALL worthless. Serves people who copy current gen games right.

[tynstar]

I agree with Sylentwulf. You are complaining about MS for trying to stop illegal copies of games. If you bought a chip that does not work you got screwed out of money just like how you are screwing the companies out of money who’s programs you copy.

[CPUWIZ]

He is not only screwing the companies, also the programmers and artists who worked for 18 f*cking months to get a game done only to find out that at the end of the day it comes out it's already available for download. :mad:

Anyone ever heard the word "royalties" before ???

[Tritoch]

*applauds Microsoft*

[NE146]

Probably off topic but any of you guys try playing those xbox emus like the snes, 2600, and colecovision and mame? They are FRIGGIN SWEEEEET.. *cough* But of course I wouldn't know of such things...

As far as the change goes.. come on, we all know it's a futile exercise. They should do it most definitely of course! But come on, we all know it'll last at most 6 months. :roll:

[Raedon]

You burn games, tough shit for you. I hope you bought 5 of the things and they're ALL worthless. Serves people who copy current gen games right.

Actually I was talking homebrew.. namely MAME.. I didn't even mention pirating games for the Xbox. I don't even own an Xbox. The MAME xbox boards are full of people that got screwed by this unannounced change.

ok.. if I owned an Xbox i'd pirate the games.. $50 for Halo? phht.

[Nature Boy]

I don't hate Microsoft, I just hate their business practices and lack of respect for anyone or anything.

How does that work exactly? Not hating them and yet hating their practices and lack of respect? :)

Out of curiosity, did Sega announce any changes to the Dreamcast system at the time? Is there not a problem with Dreamcasts built after a certain time playing emulators?

This reminds me of "Next Generation Magazine," who claimed they didn't have any biases. It's one thing to report an item. It's quite another to throw in personal slants on the story to lead the reader down a certain line of thinking. When reading an article on Sony I don't need to know how Nintendo has let you down in the past. Stick to the facts and leave the inferences to the reader I say.

[Raedon]

Out of curiosity, did Sega announce any changes to the Dreamcast system at the time? Is there not a problem with Dreamcasts built after a certain time playing emulators?

IT's not that they didn't announce it, it's that there is no change in model numbers to differenciate what type of Xbox you have. The Dreamcast has the date of manufacture on the bottom.

As for the Hate thing.. Hate is a powerful word and I don't hate Microsoft.. I just don't feel like giving them cash or wish them success.

I really should stop using the word hate all together. :?

[Sean Kelly3]

He is not only screwing the companies, also the programmers and artists who worked for 18 f*cking months to get a game done only to find out that at the end of the day it comes out it's already available for download. :mad:

Anyone ever heard the word "royalties" before ???

Not to defend piracy or even start a big piracy/anti-piracy thread, but it does amaze me sometimes when, as you say, 18 months is spent working on some of these games and yet in all that time, in SOME CASES, it never dawns on any of the dozens of people working on the game that "Hey! This game SUCKS!"

Now I have bought virtually every PS2 game I own. Some of them new, some used, but I've paid retail for every one of them. I'll tell you this...some of these games just SUCK! Yeah, I know....that's why God invented Blockbuster...so you can rent it and try it first or you could always pick up a magazine and read a review or two. But still, it seems pretty obvious to me that some companies are just slapping pretty screens on the backs of their boxes knowing full-well the game simply is not good. Sure, supply and demand...eventually companies such as these will go out of business. But not until after quite a few poor saps have laid-out $40-$50 a pop for a title or two of theirs.

I guess I'm rambling, but it really pisses me off!


Sean

[CPUWIZ]

I agree, there are many games that suck ass and have been worked on very hard by people but you know, these games won't sell and people won't get their bonuses anyway.

I know of one PS2 game you didn't buy for sure. :D

BTW, I sent your games yesterday.

[Goblin]

As a hardware engineer, I can say that MS has no responsibility to inform the public of changes to their design. They do have a responsibility to ensure compatibility with all legitimate and licensed games, but that is where the liability ends. Frequently my designs go through revisions where we consolidate functions, remove extra components to save cost, or to make the product more manufacturable. The end product is always functionaly the same and transparent to the end user. Re-spins are always done and if MS can thwart piracy at the same time then more power to them.

[Li Wang]

I give it another week at the most before new chips are out. This reminds me of when Sony came out with that new protection scheme on certain games 3 years ago. You know, the one that would make any copy of the game, including the original, not run on a modded system. All it ended up doing was pissing off hardcore importers (including of course those who wanted to play legally purchased U.S. games with the protection on a modded system) and taking a couple hours out of some hacker's day to get around the annoying feature and design the stealth mod chip. This is of course a different situation as X Box games are rarely imported and most people with chips probably actually are pirates, but I doubt the difficulty of defeating Microsoft's new security will be much (if at all) higher.

Why do they even bother? Microsoft of all companies ought to know by now that some bored hacker is going to get around it within a few days anyway. And you know all this kind of thing does to Joe Six Pack pirate is make him want to rip the company off even more.....

[YoshiM]

I also agree with Sylentwulf. Why should MS announce anything about hardware changing? Sega didn't when they added the security chip to thwart unlicensed games-magazines announced that after they started getting mails from their readers about games not working. As for Bill screwing with his "fan base": if people go and rip the machine apart and modify it to do something it wasn't meant to do, why should MS give a rat's ass? They built a (somewhat) proprietary device so game software will run properly and require no tweaking. Now insert a hardware modification they didn't design, don't endorse, and didn't sell that COULD cause true blue X-Box software to fail and now their support staff has to waste time fielding calls about people's modded X-Boxes not working. Then add to the fact that this mod allows the use of emulators and ROMS that the X-Box owners probably don't own and possibly the ability to play game backups. In other words, this changing of the hardware only hurts the illegitimate users.

Now that may came off harsh about the "illegitimate user" thing, but one must think realistically: how many people actually own the ROM chips from those arcade machines? Probably not many, a handfull at best. I myself don't care a hill o' beans about anyone owning ROMz, but I'm just using it as a devil's advocate kinda thing.

[Raedon]

you all are on the slippery slope.. There is nothing different from playing a SFII ROM on MAME and playing a dvd-r copy of Halo on a modified Xbox. They are the same thing and are just as wrong as downloading mp3's..

Sense you all have an Mp3 off an cd you never owned and probably have MAME and some roms on your computer you're all pointing fingers in circles.

Just give in to the fact that your a pirate, you'll feel better.

[CrazyImpmon]

This brings up a little question: what to do with a $90 mod chip that won't work? It's not like it's the customer's fault no one mentioned about the changes. I wonder if the dealer would take the chips back in exchange for updated version or simply say you're SOL.

[geelw]

the chip buyer is s.o.l. by default. most of them are buying it to play burns, not imports, and it's an assumed risk by the purchaser that the item will work if installed correctly.

one one hand, a GOOD seller would be up on the latest news and warn any potential buyers as to the reliability of the chip with past/future releases (as to avoid the "dis s**t don't work, gimme my f**kin' moneeback, yo!" kneejerk response from the neanderthal cap'n morgans out there), but on the other hand, telling a customer that you can't guarantee the thing will work at all on his system/games isn't necessarily a good sales pitch.

that said and done, what's the buyer going to do? go to the cops or call microsoft or sony and say "hey! i bought this chip to play burned games and this s**i don't work!!!" i heard of this happening at one shop with a ps2 chip from a cop who just started working this beat near the shop i work in. oddly enough, officer pupp came in looking for a chip or chipped system ("game are too expensive- i got a friend who, y'know..."), and we ended up on the subject of the pros and cons of piracy and such (i'm against it), and this tale came up (sorta verbatim):

some nutcase got a ps2 chip installed in an old system, and got mad because he still had to buy a $40 gameshark to boot discs up (after shelling out $125 for a chip/installation), AND his system wouldn't play some original games and certain dvds! guy goes ballistic, brings system back a few days later and demands refund or a new ps2 with a chip that plays everything with no boot disc "like the old playstation!" manager refuses, and says he can take out chip and give him refund. guy refuses, saying the place ripped him off and he's calling the cops. manager offers to gives him new u.s. system if he'll get lost. guy whips out his cellphone, calls cops. cops show up 15 minutes later. cops assess situation this way: "uh buddy, you know you're not very bright?" guy (who was formerly smugly standing in store with arms crossed thinking american justice is wonderful) practically has a heart attack/seizure as cops explain he's screwed because he's basically commiting a crime by admitting he wants to buy/play burned sony property. manager mostly in the clear, as he doesn't advertise he has chips for sale nor does he guarantee they'll work on all systems/games- cops warn him to make sure his customers know what they're getting into, or stop installing chips. guy ends up leaving with old chipped system, head spinning- cops get a good laugh...

i ended up convincing officer mc gruff to consider buying a non-modded system of his own at some point- hopefully, he'll follow through...

[theaveng]

MICROSOFT: Raedon might not hate them, but *I* do. Why can't they make a stable operating system that does not crash once a day? If Apple can design a stable Unix-based Mac OS, why not Microsoft? (a) They are idiots or (b) They purposely design sub-standard software to force constant upgrades on users. Either way, Microsoft is scum. I wish the world would abandon the Windows standard and use a different OS. A version of Mac OS on the PC would be cool. Or an updated version of GEOS.

ROYALTIES: Programmers don't get royalties. They get a flat salary just like you and I. So copying software doesn't directly hurt the programmers... just Nintendo & Microsoft & Sony.

MAME: If the games (Atari,C=64,S-NES) were still for sale, I'd buy them. Since companies refuse to release older games for purchase (like movie companies release older movies), I download them instead.

[digitalpress]

I don't hate or like Microsoft. They're like traffic, I just have to deal with it. I could avoid them at home but in my line of work they're a necessary evil.

By the way, XP has been a vast improvement in stability so far. I'm not saying it's the greatest thing ever, but it loads fast and never "blue screen"s me. When an application crashes it just goes away on its own.

[Nature Boy]

Why do they even bother? Microsoft of all companies ought to know by now that some bored hacker is going to get around it within a few days anyway. And you know all this kind of thing does to Joe Six Pack pirate is make him want to rip the company off even more.....

Of course it will be hacked. But nobody is ever going to give up on their intellectual property. That would be acknowledging that pirating is okay.

I'm neither for nor against pirating really. Yes it's wrong, but I don't really want to live in a society where everybody is right 100% of the time. If people didn't bend the rules now and again we'd be sheep.

[Mayhem]

ROYALTIES: Programmers don't get royalties. They get a flat salary just like you and I. So copying software doesn't directly hurt the programmers... just Nintendo & Microsoft & Sony.

Depends... some programmers I've spoken to do get royalties. Though I will say the majority are salaried plus bonuses etc based on sales from time to time. It used to be a lot more royalty based contracts in the 80s than now however...

[slapdash]

I agree with Sylentwulf. You are complaining about MS for trying to stop illegal copies of games. If you bought a chip that does not work you got screwed out of money just like how you are screwing the companies out of money who’s programs you copy.

Not to reopen a hot thread that seems to have cooled off, but the way I see it there are four reasons for a modchip or whatever:

1) to play copied games
2) to play emulators
3) to play homebrewed stuff
4) to play foreign games

Now, in cases 1, 2 & 4 you're screwing someone out of potential royalties/profit. But case 3 is a perfectly valid use, and it sucks that things that allow case 3 (which I think is wonderful) also allow case 1 (which I think is noxious). Corollary, it sucks that prevent case 1 (only fair) also prevent case 3 (boo!).

I'm more ambivalent on cases 2 & 4... I think preventing case 4 is silly, but there are reasons that companies do it, so at least I understand. And case 2 is cool, but I can see why Nintendo, for example, might get mad if you're running a SNES emulator on your XBox. Of course, the further back you go, the less anyone cares, for the most part.

[leonk]

You guys are forgetting one last reason:

To use the system in a way that it was not designed in the first place because of MS's closed-vision..

To run LINUX!

Think about it, you can install Linux on it, and you got a machine that can surf the web, write email, use ICQ, type up documents and email them to another place for printing, etc and it'll cost you only 299$CDN!! Much cheaper than any PC! And you get to see it all on your big TV!

LK

[NE146]

Isn't Linux like hard or something? :?

[geelw]

[quote="slapdash"]
Not to reopen a hot thread that seems to have cooled off, but the way I see it there are four reasons for a modchip or whatever:

1) to play copied games
2) to play emulators
3) to play homebrewed stuff
4) to play foreign games

Now, in cases 1, 2 & 4 you're screwing someone out of potential royalties/profit. But case 3 is a perfectly valid use, and it sucks that things that allow case 3 (which I think is wonderful) also allow case 1 (which I think is noxious). Corollary, it sucks that prevent case 1 (only fair) also prevent case 3 (boo!)...

good point... but who plays homebrew ps, ps2*, dreamcast or xbox games?

(unless you buy the upcoming ps2 linux kit or have access to a psx yaroze and some skills, lol)

one of the reasons the dc died was rampant piracy. once the system was cracked, our import sales dropped drastically, despite the horrible quality of the initial dc copies! folks were either at home burnin' away, down in chinatown hunting for chips 'n copies, or enting stuff and having it burned at work. all we had coming into the shop for imports were fat, smelly, stuttering guys looking for saturn hentai, goggle-eyed egoists of all sizes who "ONLY play 2D shooters. on the best 2D system." :roll: , and beefy, brain-dead street fighter/snk fanboys who wouldn't know a 4 meg card if it hit them in the head, and wouldn't last five seconds in a real fight. it was a hellish time...that is until we found a way to dispose of all those corpses...=^P

[slapdash]

good point... but who plays homebrew ps, ps2*, dreamcast or xbox games?

Who has access to them? More people would play them if they were easier to come across, don't you think? I'm not saying there are a lot of homebrews out there for post-Atari-era systems, but they're out there.


one of the reasons the dc died was rampant piracy. once the system was cracked, our import sales dropped drastically, despite the horrible quality of the initial dc copies! folks were either at home burnin' away, down in chinatown hunting for chips 'n copies, or enting stuff and having it burned at work.

Not as easy to pirate cartridges. God, I miss them already.

Hmm, has anyone heard of pirated GameCube games yet? I mean, there ARE mini CDRs, right?

[geelw]

Hmm, has anyone heard of pirated GameCube games yet? I mean, there ARE mini CDRs, right?

well, not mini cd's with the same storage space as gc games...

i remember when the u.s. dreamcast came out, some annoying guy came into the shop looking around and bragging about how he and his brother were going to make a fortune burning and selling "PERFECT" dc games like they did with the playstation- he had just come from spending about a thousand bucks or so on one copy of every dc game and a load of cd-rs... :roll: needless to say, he came in a week later with his de-clocked system and a stack of cds trying to get me to test one of his copies and see why they wouldn't "work right", lol...

[Raedon]

Hmm, has anyone heard of pirated GameCube games yet? I mean, there ARE mini CDRs, right?

They are Mini-DVD's, just cut down DVD media.. From what I have heard you can buy one of those nice Panasonic Cubes that play DVD's as well as mini-dvd GC games and just burn a GC game onto a DVD-r and it will work without a chip.. I've also heard about people cutting down DVD-r's with a blow-torch and a metal can the same size as a gc game to get the DVD-r to fit in a gc, though this seems a little extreme. I personally haven't seen anyone who has done this so it's all hearsay. Personally if I was going to collect anykind of disc media it would be GC as it's the only thing i would consider "collectable" about disc systems.

[chazbeenhad]

>good point... but who plays homebrew ps, ps2*, dreamcast or xbox games?


I do. The emulators too.... Mame and Stella (2600) .... Handy for Lynx .... dgen for genesis....

You can't beat it with a stick. It's absolutely the best.

Charlie

[geelw]

>good point... but who plays homebrew ps, ps2*, dreamcast or xbox games?


I do. The emulators too.... Mame and Stella (2600) .... Handy for Lynx .... dgen for genesis....

You can't beat it with a stick. It's absolutely the best.

Charlie

er, chollie... you missed the boat. i was talking about REAL home made ps/ ps2, gc & xbox games, not emulators for other systems. if you're makin' games for any of the above next-gen systems, well, that's all good too, lol...

[slapdash]

good point... but who plays homebrew ps, ps2*, dreamcast or xbox games?

I do. The emulators too...

er, chollie... you missed the boat. i was talking about REAL home made ps/ ps2, gc & xbox games, not emulators for other systems.

You might have missed the "too" in Charlie's sentence above. ;-)

[chazbeenhad]

Yeah I guess he did. :-)

"Charlie"

[Blake Stone]

4) to play foreign games

Now, in cases 1, 2 & 4 you're screwing someone out of potential royalties/profit. But case 3 is a perfectly valid use, and it sucks that things that allow case 3 (which I think is wonderful) also allow case 1 (which I think is noxious). Corollary, it sucks that prevent case 1 (only fair) also prevent case 3 (boo!).

Wait a sec, are you telling me that you actually expect us to IMPORT a system in order to play IMPORT games? That's INSANE!

Do you see ANYONE going out on a rant about people who own APEX DVD players, like me, and have hacked them to the point where they no longer have region code requirements? I mean, if you think I'm going to own 5 or more DVD players just in order to play 5 diffrent region's of DVD's, well, your sadly mistaken.

That's the same way I feel about videogames. I already have 1 Xbox....... why buy another one just to play a game from another country? Hell, I even understand back-up's.

Anyone here ever use vinal? Come on, raise your hand..... Well, I did and still do use records, and let me tell ya, those thing's are a BITCH when the get a scratch. What I did/do is play the record, and record it onto a CDR or a casset tape. Now, if the tape get's cracked or the CD get's scratched, which by the way is going to take a lot more than it would take to damage the record it's self, I'll just make another copy.

I hate getting a game and within.......let's say 2 week........ it's scratched all to fuck and back for some reason. Droped it, cat got to it, angry girlfriend got to it, swamp nazi's broke in and screwed it up in the middle of the night, it doesent matter, point is, it's suddenly a waste of cash, ESPICALLY if you haven't beat the game yet.

I normally will do one of 2 thing's when I buy a game, I'll either burn the original and set it aside only playing the copy so that I'll alway's have the game in good condition, or I'll buy the game and have a friend mail me a copy. I know, I know, there ARE un-trustworthy people out there who just buy the game's online for $3-$5, but if MS was willing to REPLACE my scratched copy, then we wouldn't HAVE that problem, or at least, not as much of it.

As for the system not being able to play burned disk at all...... well, that just down right pissed me off due to my 500 plus CDR collection. No I didn't get all these from the internet, as a matter of fact, I think I only got....... 5-10 from the net, the rest I burned from my friend's collections. I like to keep thing's.......on the cheap side, my 2 friend's however, they got the cash to blow on 10 new CD's every week. Fuck it, we're friend's! I see no crime in friendship. The problem is..... I want to put a lot of song's onto the Xbox......... and I can't.......... all b/c of anal retentiveness.

[Nature Boy]

The backup thing is a lame excuse and we all know it. Take better care of your stuff. It's not like it's hard. Most discs these days have to be extremely beat up before they stop working. And it's not like any software manufacturers are purposely releasing faulty discs in the hopes you'll have to replace it. They're not out to get us.

As an Xbox owner I'm glad they're doing something to stop piracy of their stuff. I'm sure piracy of DC games had something to do with that system's early downfall, and I'd like my Xbox to be around in 3 years.

It's not like I don't pirate stuff myself. I do. But I accept that it's wrong and I don't get all high and mighty when they stop my efforts. It's their right to protect their property. I have no right to steal it.

[Arcade Antics]

I hate getting a game and within.......let's say 2 week........ it's scratched all to fuck and back for some reason. Droped it, cat got to it, angry girlfriend got to it, swamp nazi's broke in and screwed it up in the middle of the night, it doesent matter, point is, it's suddenly a waste of cash, ESPICALLY if you haven't beat the game yet.

The hell?

That's the WORST excuse I've ever heard.

I can ALMOST see dropping a game once and your cat gets ahold of it and, somehow, is so fascinated with the thing that it scratches it all to hell. But, only ONCE. If you let that happen again, then you've got bigger problems than not having completed a game :)

AND if it only happens once, bite the bullet already and go buy or rent it again if you're so bent on finishing it.

When you break a dish, knock over a drink on your TV, computer, DVD player, etc., or set fire to the carpet (or it somehow just "happens" as you say) does the maker of each item owe you a new, FREE one because YOU have now fucked up?

Not by a longshot.

[geelw]

good point... but who plays homebrew ps, ps2*, dreamcast or xbox games?

I do. The emulators too...

er, chollie... you missed the boat. i was talking about REAL home made ps/ ps2, gc & xbox games, not emulators for other systems.

You might have missed the "too" in Charlie's sentence above. ;-)


lol! no, i didn't miss it at all- i was trying to keep the topic where it should be- emulation isn't an issue here, as far as i'm concerned...

[Raedon]

Piracy had nothing to do with the Dreamcast or sega's demise. Sega is the only one who can be blamed for that. We all know the story..

Sega CD poorly supported and expensive, people get upset.. 32x released, poorly supported, people get a little more upset. a few months after the 32x is released the Saturn is out, people are mad and confused and move to PS1 and N64.. Sega comes out with the Dreamcast and everyone is reading about the PS2. sega cuts corners on production games like Sonic Adventure (using the 3 different voice actors for Sonic.. lame) and people just give up on Sega and druel over the PS2 pictures.

Piracy has little effect on consoles like the Xbox or PS2 as it takes a solid 11+ wires of hard soldering to get them to work. I only knew 4 people who had a mod chip in a PS1 out of the 100's of ps1's I've seen around.

Now you might say "What about those no wire USB mod chips for PS2!" Well ok, but they don't play all games.. most notably EA games and Duel-layer media (means no DVD movies or Xenosaga).. and you still have to solder wires even with the "wireless" chips.. and you need a gamegenie to make it work AND if you use the gamegenie to run a bootleg it won't work for game cheats. AND you needed to swap a game like GTAIII and that doesn't always work.

You've run into a marketing ploy.. There was only one PS2 mod chip that worked like it should (like a saturn or ps1 chip.. no worry, no hassle) and that was the X0-2 that seems to have been removed from Lan-Kwei.

the "No wire" X-Box Matrix chip just let you play imports and region free dvd movies.. it had nothing to do with backups.. the real Xbox mod chip os a extremely hard install..
Only Hardcore people can do these installs. and only 1% of the people who buy a console will use a mod chip.. that's nothing to someone in sales.. 1%..

[Captain Wrong]

goggle-eyed egoists of all sizes who "ONLY play 2D shooters. on the best 2D system." :roll: ,

Hey, I resemble that remark. :P

[geelw]

goggle-eyed egoists of all sizes who "ONLY play 2D shooters. on the best 2D system." :roll: ,

Hey, I resemble that remark. :P


lol! i was hoping no one would take that too seriously (death threats roll off me like water on a duck!... :D

[slapdash]

good point... but who plays homebrew ps, ps2*, dreamcast or xbox games?

I do. The emulators too...

er, chollie... you missed the boat. i was talking about REAL home made ps/ ps2, gc & xbox games, not emulators for other systems.

You might have missed the "too" in Charlie's sentence above. ;-)

lol! no, i didn't miss it at all- i was trying to keep the topic where it should be- emulation isn't an issue here, as far as i'm concerned...

Well, okay, but he was admitting that he does play homebrewed games, not JUST emulators. That's why I point out that the "too" is important; and on-topic I guess.

[slapdash]

The backup thing is a lame excuse and we all know it. Take better care of your stuff. It's not like it's hard


I don't think it's a problem with games yet, but have you seen those new CD cases? The spindle that holds the disc has been made sturdier, but at the cost of the ease of removing a disc. I actually had one snap in half on me! I was definitely not pleased... So let's not pretend that these things are indestructible either. Believe me, I keep my stuff in pretty decent shape, but there's only so much I can do, and a backup might ease my mind.

Now on the other hand, you're correct in saying that "backups" are often used as a lame excuse, but what you need to remember is that up until a couple years ago, the courts would almost always support the idea that anything that had legitimate uses could not be made illegal. Lately this is changing, and I don't think it's for the best.

[slapdash]

4) to play foreign games

Now, in cases 1, 2 & 4 you're screwing someone out of potential royalties/profit. But case 3 is a perfectly valid use, and it sucks that things that allow case 3 (which I think is wonderful) also allow case 1 (which I think is noxious). Corollary, it sucks that prevent case 1 (only fair) also prevent case 3 (boo!).

Wait a sec, are you telling me that you actually expect us to IMPORT a system in order to play IMPORT games? That's INSANE!


Read what I said. If you import, you do potentially screw someone out of royalties -- that's a fact. But did I say I was against importing? No. Don't read too much into my words.



Do you see ANYONE going out on a rant about people who own APEX DVD players, like me, and have hacked them to the point where they no longer have region code requirements? I mean, if you think I'm going to own 5 or more DVD players just in order to play 5 diffrent region's of DVD's, well, your sadly mistaken.


Again, you're reading too much into my words. Do I expect you to buy a foreign player for foreign movies? No, of course not. Would I hack my DVD player to lose the region code if I could? You're damn right I would, though I might never even need it. But will someone lose some profits? Maybe. Therefore, you should at least understand why the corporations are against it.

My point was that homebrewed stuff should be legal, and allowed. The problem is, Sony will tell you that they've lost money even then because you didn't sign up as a licensee. But on that point they can go to hell, because they don't make any affordable homebrew licenses do they?

[bargora]

Read what I said. If you import, you do potentially screw someone out of royalties -- that's a fact. But did I say I was against importing? No. Don't read too much into my words.

So we're not against importing. Agreed. But it seems to me that your half-hearted argument about importing potentially screwing someone out of royalties is a weak one. Consumers who exercise choice always potentially screw someone out of profits.

WARNING: Lengthy exposition follows.

If I import a Japanese copy of Silhouette Mirage for my PSX instead of purchasing Working Designs's North American release, then I have deprived WD of their profit. But then, I have not gained the benefit of their translation and game butchery services. Is this the screwing out of profits you are referring to? Whether I import or buy a domestic copy, Treasure (the developer) gets their money, because in either case a legitimate copy of their game was sold at full price in the first instance. And in both cases Sony gets their royalty.

If, on the other hand, I import Silhouette Mirage for my PSX instead of buying the North America release of the classic Kabuki Warriors for my hypothetical XBox, then I have deprived the development company, publisher, and Microsoft of their Kabuki-profits, and handed all the money over to Treasure, their Japanese publisher, and Sony. But as far as the Kabuki-people are concerned, there's no difference between that and my purchasing a North American copy of Gran Turismo 3 instead. My non-import purchase of GT3 is still depriving a lot of people of their Kabuki-related profits in favor of dumping money on Sony.

So it seems to me that as long as you are importing a legitimate copy of a game, anybody who was involved in the production, distribution, and royalty stream of the game got their proper slice of pie with the first sale of the game, whether to the Japanese purchaser who later sells on ebay, or to the importer in North America. I don't see the distribution of moneys caused by importing as being any different than that caused generally by choosing to buy one game instead of another aside from the nationalities of those receiving the cash.

Maybe I'm missing the point entirely, and if so, please bring the enlightenment. Note, however, that whether I import games or not, I'm not buying Kabuki Warriors.

Finally, I think we can agree that the moral force is in the side of the egoists who only play and therefore must import the 2D shooters for the best 2D system!

[ROBOTRON]

MS sux hockey pucks.... O.o

[Anonymous]

Without getting too far into the debate, I have to say that ALL of the hardware manufacturers change their hardware. The Gamecube that is sold now is different from the gamecube that was sold at launch. Same with PS2, SNES, 3DO, all of them. Hardware revisions are made for several reasons, to keep hardware costs down, to improve stability, to lower heat consumption, and yes, even to prevent piracy.

I think the article referenced in this topic was printed by a staunchly anti-M$ freak who should do a little more research instead of using his position to unjustly perpetuate unfounded loyalistic corporate branding propoganda. This goes for people who hate MS as much as it goes for people who Love Square.

[udisi]

ok, here's my 2 cents.....there's nothing wrong with what MS has done, and let me tell you if sony or Nintendo had thought of it first, they would have done it also...(which means in the future they probably will)......Backups(yea right), CD-R's, mod-chips, have been cutting into profits almost since the beginning of Disc media....

(1) No, you shouldn't be able to import a game and play it on a US system....There's a reason the game isn't brought to the states. It's cause those in power believe it wouldn't make a profit(which they're probably right)....or, they're selling the US rights to someone else to make profit later...If you're so hard-core and need to play something that bad(which I can understand), then you can import a machine.(that's hard-core)

(2)Backups of anykind are just wrong and are piracy....don't get me wrong I loved napster as much as anyone when it was running, but it was wrong.....I never bought CD's....there was no need.....and whoever said Copied games didn't hurt the DC is on crack....tons of people had 150 games DC libraries, 90-95% of which were burned copies....Yes , mismanagement probably helped lead to the DC demise, but the DC was probably also the most pirated system in history.....also I have to agree, if you fuck up a disc, that's your own damn fault...take care of your shit...and the"I can't play CD-r's on my xbox" whine pisses me off, yea you may have copied them from friends CD's.....but that's no different than downloading them off the internet.....The internet just consists of more friends....

(3) As for homebrews, I highly doubt any one person or even small group of people is gonna take the time or have a program that can only be played on the XBOX.....why not program for the DC, or the NES.....yes, the day may come that a homebrew may require the power of the XBOX and it will be a shame, but today I highly doubt that there are homebrews that can only be played on the xbox.

(4)Emulators....Yes I like them.....but....They too are also Piracy....want every nes or SNES game....go buy them....
Yes they may not be using the material now, but that's not to say they won't rerelease it of make a compilation or something....it's theirs to do with as they please.


BTW---I also own one of the APEX DVD players, so not to say I'm holy-er than thou. I'm just stating the facts

[Anonymous]

Just another reiteration. Sony and Nintendo DO do this sort of thing (and Sega did). There are several versions of the SNES. Later versions had anti piracy firmware installed, and if you tried to play Donkey Kong Country 3, for example, it would sometimes lock you out accidentally. Incidentally, this was also designed to combat "cheat devices" such as the game genie.

[Happy_Dude]

:o Imports are bad??? :?
I don't get it :?

The companies get their damn money, and I get a game that
I would otherwise never be able to play legitimatly.

:o Rom's are bad??? :?

O.k this kinda makes sense but I have a hard drive full of roms
that I plan to own (eventualy) and I fell like being able to play
the roms on my computer is the best advertisement ever.

but of course not everyone plays by the rules.
Fact of life my friends, Some people are just A##HOLES!

[slapdash]

I'm responding before reading the rest of this thread, so my apologies if I tread on ground someone else already has...




If you import, you do potentially screw someone out of royalties -- that's a fact.

So we're not against importing. Agreed. But it seems to me that your half-hearted argument about importing potentially screwing someone out of royalties is a weak one.

"Half-hearted argument"? I'm stating fact.


Consumers who exercise choice always potentially screw someone out of profits.

This is true but then misses the point. If I give up on games altogether I screw a whole industry.


If I import a Japanese copy of Silhouette Mirage for my PSX instead of purchasing Working Designs's North American release, then I have deprived WD of their profit. Is this the screwing out of profits you are referring to?

Not just. There may be someone here who has licensed the rights to the property behind the game, and you've just screwed them out of it.


Whether I import or buy a domestic copy, Treasure (the developer) gets their money, because in either case a legitimate copy of their game was sold at full price in the first instance. And in both cases Sony gets their royalty.

So it seems to me that as long as you are importing a legitimate copy of a game, anybody who was involved in the production, distribution, and royalty stream of the game got their proper slice of pie with the first sale of the game, whether to the Japanese purchaser who later sells on ebay, or to the importer in North America.

This depends on the licensing arrangements... Let's give you a case where the most loss occurs...

Author X created an anime that Video Company M (Japan) makes, and it is popular enough in Japan that Game Company A (Japan) decides to make a game based on it. They pay Author X and/or Video Company M money for the rights and get to work.

Now, Video Company N (USA) decides that this anime is pretty cool, and they think they can sell it here, so they pay Author X and/or Video Company M money for the rights and get to work.

Now... Game Company B (USA) sees the anime and thinks it's pretty cool, so they start researching the situation. They find that Video Company N holds the rights here, and they end up paying them for the rights and get to work.

So, eventually, we have the game available in Japan, and in the USA. You go to the store, but you grab the import instead. Note that regardless, Sony gets their cut. Well, there's the issue of which Sony, but it probably evens out.

But, by picking up the import, you've (1) cost Game Company B (US) a sale, (2) assured that if B pays Video Company N (US) per copy they've lost a license too which (3) doesn't profit Video Company M (Japan) at all if they're not on a per copy license. At least in this scenario Game Company A (Japan) gets something for it, but everyone else involved above the original publisher can lose something.

But if that all confuses you, just bear this in mind... It's not just the game company that has a potential for a missed sale, there may be copyright holders that lose out too.

[slapdash]

I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but I need to correct some things.


(1) No, you shouldn't be able to import a game and play it on a US system

I don't believe this at all. I understand why it's set up the way it is, but I still think it's bullshit.


(2)Backups of anykind are just wrong and are piracy

No they aren't! Repeat after me:

(a) Making, buying or selling a backup of a game you don't own is piracy
(b) Selling a backup of a game you own is piracy
(c) Selling a game you own but keeping the backup is piracy

You see the word backup in every one of those, but it's the extra words that are important. Don't confuse "backups" the way pirates talk about them from backups, which have always been legal.


(3) As for homebrews, I highly doubt any one person or even small group of people is gonna take the time or have a program that can only be played on the XBOX.....why not program for the DC, or the NES.....yes, the day may come that a homebrew may require the power of the XBOX and it will be a shame, but today I highly doubt that there are homebrews that can only be played on the xbox.

Don't presume that you know what the homebrewers are going to do. There were plenty of guys doing Yaroze work, right? And the XBox is basically a PC, for which there are many, many, many homebrewers. So why keep them from playing with whatever system they damn well want to? Just because you "highly doubt" something doesn't make it true, or even reasonable.


(4)Emulators....Yes I like them.....but....They too are also Piracy

No, no, no, no, NO! Emulators are NOT piracy. ROMs for games that aren't public domain and you don't own are, but not the emulators themselves, and not even all ROMs. Again, the list:

(a) emulator -- legal
(b) ROMs of games you own -- legal as a backup
(c) ROMs of games that are public domain -- legal
(d) ROMs of games you've written -- legal
(e) ROMs of games that others have written as shareware -- legal (if purchased or within time period author allows; after that not illegal, but unethical)
(f) ROMs of games that other have written to be freely distributable (not not public domain necessarily)


BTW---I also own one of the APEX DVD players, so not to say I'm holy-er than thou. I'm just stating the facts

Sorry, you're not always stating facts...

[Happy_Dude]

@slapdash
Not to mention retailers that only stock domestic products.

but at the end of the day its all about playing the games and
if there is no domestic relese then you have to buy imports.
plus Jap games seem to have a lot of extra "Cool Stuff" included
like Artwork books and sweet packaging that NEVER gets a
look in outside of Japan.

What your saying is support your local economy.
If I buy an import my money STILL pays the programmers
so they can make more games and thats all that matters in
my mind!

[udisi]

ok, I did generalize a bit there, but here... my point on imports still stands....you may not like the reasons the companies do it, but still it's their right.....and yes I used the word back-up wrong a couple of times. though I believe when you buy a game that it stats that a condition of using said game is that you do not make back-ups(I could be wrong, but I believe somewhere in the legal mombo jombo it says that) and stats that it will replace the product if it cesses to function. If this is true, then yes all back-ups are technically ilegal, as it's illegal to use the program for what it was not intended to be used for, or if your violate the user agreement while doing so.

Emulators, I stand corrected are not ilegal, I was thinking ROMS...and yes, public domain, homebrew or other games that permission has been given are legal, but let's face it most people aren't place homebrew or public domain games. for the most part the ROMS floating around out there are ilegal.

[bargora]

I'm responding before reading the rest of this thread, so my apologies if I tread on ground someone else already has...




If you import, you do potentially screw someone out of royalties -- that's a fact.

So we're not against importing. Agreed. But it seems to me that your half-hearted argument about importing potentially screwing someone out of royalties is a weak one.

"Half-hearted argument"? I'm stating fact.


Consumers who exercise choice always potentially screw someone out of profits.

This is true but then misses the point. If I give up on games altogether I screw a whole industry.


If I import a Japanese copy of Silhouette Mirage for my PSX instead of purchasing Working Designs's North American release, then I have deprived WD of their profit. Is this the screwing out of profits you are referring to?

Not just. There may be someone here who has licensed the rights to the property behind the game, and you've just screwed them out of it.


Whether I import or buy a domestic copy, Treasure (the developer) gets their money, because in either case a legitimate copy of their game was sold at full price in the first instance. And in both cases Sony gets their royalty.

So it seems to me that as long as you are importing a legitimate copy of a game, anybody who was involved in the production, distribution, and royalty stream of the game got their proper slice of pie with the first sale of the game, whether to the Japanese purchaser who later sells on ebay, or to the importer in North America.

This depends on the licensing arrangements... Let's give you a case where the most loss occurs...

Author X created an anime that Video Company M (Japan) makes, and it is popular enough in Japan that Game Company A (Japan) decides to make a game based on it. They pay Author X and/or Video Company M money for the rights and get to work.

Now, Video Company N (USA) decides that this anime is pretty cool, and they think they can sell it here, so they pay Author X and/or Video Company M money for the rights and get to work.

Now... Game Company B (USA) sees the anime and thinks it's pretty cool, so they start researching the situation. They find that Video Company N holds the rights here, and they end up paying them for the rights and get to work.

So, eventually, we have the game available in Japan, and in the USA. You go to the store, but you grab the import instead. Note that regardless, Sony gets their cut. Well, there's the issue of which Sony, but it probably evens out.

But, by picking up the import, you've (1) cost Game Company B (US) a sale, (2) assured that if B pays Video Company N (US) per copy they've lost a license too which (3) doesn't profit Video Company M (Japan) at all if they're not on a per copy license. At least in this scenario Game Company A (Japan) gets something for it, but everyone else involved above the original publisher can lose something.

But if that all confuses you, just bear this in mind... It's not just the game company that has a potential for a missed sale, there may be copyright holders that lose out too.

Yeah, I gotta admit you're right. The "screwing someone out of royalties" a fact, not an argument. I had said "half-hearted" because I recalled you saying earlier that you like to import. I think I just phrased it badly.

And your explanation was only confusing until the second read-through. I appreciate the effort you took to illustrate exactly who loses money and how.

So: Importing is bad for certain stakeholders in the scheme of things, but that doesn't change the fact that regional lockouts make me grind my teeth. As I mentioned in another thread, I have never imported a title that ended up with a North American localization. (Of course, that's because I'm cheap and lazy rather than "virtuous". I'll probably even wait for Ikaruga GCN, and I love both Treasure and shmups.) It's the lockouts combined with the never-released-in-North-America that makes me crazy.

[slapdash]

yes I used the word back-up wrong a couple of times. though I believe when you buy a game that it stats that a condition of using said game is that you do not make back-ups(I could be wrong, but I believe somewhere in the legal mombo jombo it says that) and stats that it will replace the product if it cesses to function.

Well, don't confuse End-User License Agreements with actual law, first off. If the shrink-wrap EULA text just repeated the law, they wouldn't bother wasting the ink to print it. The EULA is trying to restrict you to certain usages, for better or for worse, and this is something that's been under great debate. For instance, can you truly be legally bound to live up to an agreement you tore apart rather than signed? :-)

More directly though, will they replace the product? They don't make you any guarantee to replace in perpetuity. Considering how many of us here like OLD games, do you really think I'm going to trust any company to live up to that promise after 2 years? After 5? After 10? Even companies still in business after that long will tell you where to go, despite what they printed.


If this is true, then yes all back-ups are technically ilegal, as it's illegal to use the program for what it was not intended to be used for, or if your violate the user agreement while doing so.

Copyright law, at least in the past, has ALWAYS allowed backups of software. Now, the DMCA and other crappy laws may be trying to erase those rights, amongst many others, but I suspect that there is still a lot of cases going on one way or the other about this. But even in these cases, backups will not all be illegal -- backups of public domain stuff, backups of your stuff, backups of shareware and freeware etc, will all still be legal.


Emulators, I stand corrected are not ilegal, I was thinking ROMS...and yes, public domain, homebrew or other games that permission has been given are legal, but let's face it most people aren't place homebrew or public domain games. for the most part the ROMS floating around out there are ilegal.

Right, and worse, too many pirates either (a) use that inane "24 hours" caveat to cover their asses about selling or distributing ROMs and copies, or (b) actually believe that "24 hours" lie is true. I'm sick of these vultures who see me bidding on Dreamcast games and then write to ask if I want to buy copies from them. Ugh.

[slapdash]

Yeah, I gotta admit you're right. The "screwing someone out of royalties" a fact, not an argument.

Actually, I should perhaps clarify one thing about that...


And your explanation was only confusing until the second read-through. I appreciate the effort you took to illustrate exactly who loses money and how.

No problem, thanks for listening. :-)


So: Importing is bad for certain stakeholders in the scheme of things

This is the thing... Some people will still think that noone's getting cheated, because the originators get their cut. I think the point is that the profit may get redirected as opposed to lost, but still, someone who is spending money to bring the game over does lose, allowing someone who didn't do that to gain. I don't know if that makes it clearer to anyone else who didn't get my last post...


but that doesn't change the fact that regional lockouts make me grind my teeth.

Me either. I just wanted to clear up that there are REAL reasons why these lockouts are done. I didn't understand it in the past either.


It's the lockouts combined with the never-released-in-North-America that makes me crazy.

Yeah, that's just stupid. Think of it this way, if you figure someone's going to want to import the game, they'll take it as is, which means no regionalization. So, if no one licenses it for regionalization, all you have to do is change the lockout code and sell it as an import, and only a few people will buy it, but at least it will be available. You'd think Sony might offer such a niche service, but no.

[bargora]

Well, don't confuse End-User License Agreements with actual law, first off. If the shrink-wrap EULA text just repeated the law, they wouldn't bother wasting the ink to print it. The EULA is trying to restrict you to certain usages, for better or for worse, and this is something that's been under great debate. For instance, can you truly be legally bound to live up to an agreement you tore apart rather than signed? :-)


Hey, you wouldn't think so, but the last couple of cases I saw (which are now a couple of years old, Gateway and ProCD iirc) regarding shrink-wrap licenses seemed to come down in favor of upholding the terms of the license, saying that if the consumer doesn't like it, the consumer can return the product. Now, whether the store will actually take the software back and give you a refund if you say "Dude, I didn't like the 'sale of firstborn' clause in the EULA", well, that's another matter. I'd hate to have to sue the store to get my money back!

[slapdash]

Well, don't confuse End-User License Agreements with actual law, first off. If the shrink-wrap EULA text just repeated the law, they wouldn't bother wasting the ink to print it. The EULA is trying to restrict you to certain usages, for better or for worse, and this is something that's been under great debate. For instance, can you truly be legally bound to live up to an agreement you tore apart rather than signed? :-)


Hey, you wouldn't think so, but the last couple of cases I saw (which are now a couple of years old, Gateway and ProCD iirc) regarding shrink-wrap licenses seemed to come down in favor of upholding the terms of the license, saying that if the consumer doesn't like it, the consumer can return the product. Now, whether the store will actually take the software back and give you a refund if you say "Dude, I didn't like the 'sale of firstborn' clause in the EULA", well, that's another matter. I'd hate to have to sue the store to get my money back!

Yeah, I almost mentioned the Gateway case specifically, because it was an extreme travesty of justice. Years ago Coleco got sued for false advertising because their ads appeared to suggest that the Atari version of Donkey Kong had three screens like the Colecovision version rather than just 2, or something like that, but Gateway raped their customers and got off scot free. Awful, awful decision on that judge's part.

But even then, notice that there was a lawsuit... The EULA didn't specify any laws, merely tried to force the users into an agreement they wouldn't have wanted, and worse, one idiotic judge allowed. But still, nothing to do with the actual letter of the law.

(PS -- don't buy Gateway products; if you're tempted to, you need to read about just how badly they screwed over their customers on this one... I think it was called the Gateway 2000 or Gateway Millenium, something like that; I can't find it in comp.risks which is where I thought I'd read about it, so you might be on your own -- I think the Hill v Gateway 2000 and Brower v Gateway 2000 cases might be the right ones, but am not sure as I'm not finding the actual dissection of the case that I read a while back...)