Homemade MAME Machine, ROMZ vs. the real deal

[Oobgarm]

The recent trip to Cedar Point has gotten me interested in a few arcade games I'd never played in the arcade before, and rekindled my interest in some forgotten classics.

I've spent quite a bit of time with MAME on the computer here, so I've decided to undertake the project of building my own personal arcade machine and outfitting it with MAME. Rather than exhume an existing machine, I want to build mine from the ground up.

Anyone have experience building their own, or know someone who has? This looks like it will be a fun and challenging project.

[Flack]

Here's a few hundred who have:

http://www.arcadecontrols.com/arcade_examples.php

I had an empty cabinet donated to my project. I've bought a computer, monitor, and now just need to get the ball rolling. So little time, so much gaming to do. Good luck with yours, once I get started on the assembly of mine I'll share some pictures.

Flack

[ddockery]

I'm in the same boat, but probably won't begin making mine until next summer, after my wedding... I figure something like this will fly a lot easier than say, 20 arcade cabinets. I want to BUILD it too, i nothing else to learn something practical.

[leonk]

Yup..

just finished mine.. worked on it for 6 months..

It has a 25" original Arcade monitor, 2 controllers, 6 buttons per person.
Has about 300 Arcade games, 50 SNES games and 50 Genesis games.

It's running and AMD 2400+ CPU with 256MB RAM. It's running with the ArcadeVGA video card and J-PAC connector.

If you wanna do it right, prepare to spend some good $$$.. getting the arcade machine was the CHEAPEST thing for me!

[Flack]

How do you have yours boot up? I was thinking of writing a custom VB app that would allow you to use the joystick and choose which emulator you want to load up. Might be cool to sit on my stool and play some Pitfall or River Raid on that thing ... :) I hope 720 plays okay on a regular 8-way joystick.

Flack

[buttasuperb]

Real arcade boards > MAME

But enjoy building your machine, should be fun.

[Oobgarm]

How do you have yours boot up? I was thinking of writing a custom VB app that would allow you to use the joystick and choose which emulator you want to load up. Might be cool to sit on my stool and play some Pitfall or River Raid on that thing ... :) I hope 720 plays okay on a regular 8-way joystick.

Flack

I am still going to boot it up into Windows. That way I can run my NES emu as well. Using a big trackball as a mouse should be fun. :D


Real arcade boards > MAME

I agree with that statement 100%(not to menetion they look cool), but I can't spend money on decicated cabs. Even though there's only a handful of arcade games I truly enjoyed and want to play on this machine, the cost of buying dedicated cabs would kill me.

I anxiously await the ability to play Street Fighter II on this thing. :rocker:

[Flack]

Real arcade boards > MAME

But enjoy building your machine, should be fun.

Real cabs certainly are better ... in fact, I love the ones I have already. But MAME cabs have their place too, especially when space and money are an issue. Same with all emulators, really. I prefer the real C64 over WinVice, but when I go out of town for a week for work it's a lot easier to fire up WinVice on my laptop than it is to drag my SX64 and a stack of floppies with me.

Flack

[ragtime_tgs]

[double post]

[ragtime_tgs]

i decided to take a slightly different approach and didnt built a mame cab,but a
jamma compatible mame pc that fits into a cps2 housing and can be plugged in and played on every jamma compatible cab.
it features internal voltage converters and doenst need any additional atx power supply,i cloned the electronics of a snes pad 3 times and connected it to the parallel port to circumvent the limitations of hacked keyboards(only 3 buttons at a time etc) and it has an 8w stereo amp.
im running pure dos with advmenu and advmame wich seems to be the best solution for me.(a bitch to configure,but very low loading time,fast etc)
it doesnt have a harddisk,but a compact flash cart on the ide bus(yep,compact flash carts do understand the ide protocol,look on the sandisk homepage for instructions on how to rewire a cf cart) for increased reliability.
i also implemented a small circuit that disables the video output lines until the gui has loaded to prevent ugly non-synced bios screens ;)
here are some pics:
http://type4.homeip.net/d4s/arcadedriss.htm

[Tom61]

That's pretty cool ragtime_tgs! Very novel. Is it OK if I add you to the examples of arcadecontrols.com?

[Isometric_Bacon]

How do you have yours boot up? I was thinking of writing a custom VB app that would allow you to use the joystick and choose which emulator you want to load up. Might be cool to sit on my stool and play some Pitfall or River Raid on that thing ... :) I hope 720 plays okay on a regular 8-way joystick.

Flack

One word, MAMEWAH.

Check out www.arcadecontrols.com, you should find a link in the software forums.

I myself am also building a mame cabinet (from scratch, none of this conversion buisness :) ), and are nearing completion. Once i'm all finished i'll probably upload it to this thread so you guys can have a squiz :).

[leonk]

Real arcade boards > MAME

But enjoy building your machine, should be fun.

?!? I tend to disagree...

Here's a couple of observations I have about the whole "MAME" idea..

1) You gotta have a really FAST machine to get the original experience

2) Almost 100% of all bar top arcade machines, are really PCs!!! They boot into MS DOS, load a special CD-ROM driver that has encryption keys to match the CD that's in the drive, load the touch screen driver, and boot the game. Sounds like "MAME" to me! And this is commercial grade stuff!

3) If you MAME right, with real joystick, real buttons, real coin door, real amp, real monitor from an arcade machine, use a non-matrix based key converter, and use a real 15 Khz RGB about PC video card... Well, there is no way *EVER* you'll be able to tell the difference!! Down to the pixel position, color, refresh rate, and speed!

But point #3 costs $$$, needs some really knowledgable work, and many don't want to go that far.. they end up using cheap out to TV ATI video cards, using a PC monitor, or using a regular TV. Heck, in this situation, even the real board would look bad!

Don't knock it till you tried it..

Anyways.. MAME chat belongs at arcadecontrols.com .. not here.

[buttasuperb]

?!? I tend to disagree...

I will say it again.

Arcade PCB's > MAME

You can give all the reasons you want otherwise, but it's the truth.

I don't care if someone wants to play MAME or not, it doesn't matter to me. I think it's pretty cool that people take the time and build their own machines. Has to feel pretty nice to finish a project like that and play some games on a cab.

Anyways, however you go about it, GAME ON.

[leonk]

buttasuperb:

I REALLY want to know the reason behind your way of thinking.. this really interests me a lot. Trust me, I'm not trying to put you down or anything, but empty unrational statements don't make a lot of sense to me.

For example:

I'd be the first to stand up and say that emulating NES on the PC is not the same as having the real thing. The rational reasons behind this being:

1) You miss the feel of the real controller
2) If you wire the controller to your PC, you miss the feeling of the real TV
3) if you use TV out, you miss seeing the actual game cart ART & manual ART
4) You miss the feeling of putting the cart in, and pulling it out and holding it in your hand

The above reasons are why I'm an AVID NES collector, with 600+ carts and 50+ accessories.

On the other hand, I can't think of a SINGLE reason why PCB > MAME!

You don't see the PCB, many times the PCB is a real PC (as with all new PCB's), you don't switch PCB's, MAME boots PCB's the same way, you have full control via MAME TAB key to change same settings as jumpers on PCB..

Heck, I was even the owner of Xmen COTA CPS2 PCB and I really can't tell the difference between the original JAMMA board in my arcade and the MAME version...

Anything else??? Is it the art work on the arcade box that does it for you??

I mean, if you take any arcade machine, pull the JAMMA board out, put in a PC. Have it boot to DOS and start MAME with that game directly and then come into the room, will you EVER be able to tell I switched the JAMMA board with MAME!??

I personally don't think so.

Let us know.

[Arcade Antics]

Anything else??? Is it the art work on the arcade box that does it for you??

That's part of it, certainly.


I mean, if you take any arcade machine, pull the JAMMA board out, put in a PC. Have it boot to DOS and start MAME with that game directly and then come into the room, will you EVER be able to tell I switched the JAMMA board with MAME!??

Definitely. A computer will occasionally bug out. A machine typically won't, but when it does, it will behave differently. You'd also notice the hard drive sounds.

I agree with Butta 100%.

[leonk]

Arcade Antics:

As far as the art work goes, there are many places on the internet that will sell you silkscreen original reproduction of the CP art, side art work and marquee reprints. The quality is going to be identical to the original. So if you're trying to just reproduce one system (e.g. PacMan, or an arcade machine that's close to imposible to find.. you can do it).

As far as the hard drive noise, the noisiest part of an arcade, believe it or not, is the monitor!

Apart from that, arcade machines have fans on their power supplies, and fans on most of their PCB's. As far as HD noise, you can install an HD into your system that is dead quiet (like the one I'm using).

Also, don't forget that games like Area 51 and newer all have hard drives connect to the PCB's.

When it comes to MAME, it all depends how far you want to go, and how much $$$ you got to spend. But if you are dedicated enough, and work on it for a long time, you can tweak it to the point where even during bootup you'll never be able to tell there's a PC in the box!!!

By the time my 25" original Arcade monitor warms up and shows the RGB video, Windows XP is booting.. but I got XP tweaked to the point where you don't even know it's XP.. Heck, you can't even tell it's Windows!!!

1 Button turns on the system.. 1 button turns off the system. No extra buttons on the CP that aren't found on the original arcade machine.

And best of all, you gotta put in quaters to play!

Unless I tell people, they never know it's not "the real thing" or what ever that means today...

I personally get attached to the actual feeling and gameplay. I don't get attached to ROM chips and PCB plastic. I can buy that stuff for pennies at the local electronics shop. :D

[Kid Ice]

Anything else??? Is it the art work on the arcade box that does it for you??

That's part of it, certainly.


I mean, if you take any arcade machine, pull the JAMMA board out, put in a PC. Have it boot to DOS and start MAME with that game directly and then come into the room, will you EVER be able to tell I switched the JAMMA board with MAME!??

Definitely. A computer will occasionally bug out. A machine typically won't, but when it does, it will behave differently. You'd also notice the hard drive sounds.

I agree with Butta 100%.

You can throw in all the "what-ifs" in the world, you just can't replicate an original arcade game, especially a classic one. Something is lost in the translation.

You could probably do a complete, killer MAME machine for around two thousand bucks. I probably will do that one of these days, but I'm reluctant too. Now if someone said "Here's 10 new classic arcade cabs, give me $2000", I'd hand the money over IN AN INSTANT. And that's only 10 games; you can play 100X that on a MAME cab.

[Flack]

Not everyone has room for 10 cabinets in their house.

I have multiple original cabs, and am working on a MAME one as well. I would like to have 3,000 cabs in my backyard arcade, but due to practicality, I think a MAME machine's the way to go. Feel free not to play it if you ever drop by.

Flack

[leonk]

"Don't knock it till you tried it"..

I've played mame and non-mame'd games ON THE SAME PHYSICAL BOX. And for the life of me can't tell the difference.

saying stuff like "you got stuff lost in the transition" well what stuff!? What transition? Are you aware that the ROM files are PHYSICAL bit-for-bit dumps of the ROM's from the PCB? Are you aware that MAME 100% emulates functional CPUs?

MAME ARCADE does not equal MAME on your computer!!! Playing MAME on a 21" Sony Trinitron computer monitor with a computer keyboard is not even close to the real thing.. it sucks!

So, find someone who did a real MAME conversion, check out the quality, and then come back here and tell us how it sucks.

[buttasuperb]

MAME ARCADE does not equal MAME on your computer!!! Playing MAME on a 21" Sony Trinitron computer monitor with a computer keyboard is not even close to the real thing.. it sucks!

Neither is playing ROMZ on a 25" monitor in a cab you built.

I've played both MAME and Neorage, and they aren't the same as the real deal. And it's not because I'm using a PSX controller to play the game. It's because the game just flat out doesn't look as good, no matter what kinda monitor it is, or play as good, no matter what controller you use. And that will always be my opinion on the matter, so don't bother arguing it anymore.

[Flack]

Butta, I think you might be thinking of something besides what we're talking about. In a MAME cabinet, you can use a real arcade monitor, and real arcade joysticks in a real arcade cabinet. You can't tell the difference because there is no difference.

The one thing I do agree with you about is that it's pointless to argue. I'll go forward with my MAME cab that plays 3,000+ games, and you get started on collecting and storing 3,000+ cabinets.

Flack

[buttasuperb]

No, I've played a MAME cab.

Yes, you go on having 3000 illegal files, and I'll continue to collect the under 100 pcb's that I want.

100 pcb's does not equal 100 cabs. Not even close.

3000 cabinets...what a stupid comment.

Why the hell do I continue to post in these threads...

[Pantechnicon]

I built my MAME cab on teh cheap. Between what I had in spare parts and what I bought, total cost was just under $100. It can be done inexpensivley and well. Here's my baby: http://www.geocities.com/zenoszone/mameframe.htm

Email me if you need more specific information and best of luck.

[leonk]

buttasuperb:

This is a valid argument, and great discussion.

The MAME community never had such a change to perfection as it did in the last 6 months. So I would be the first to say that unless your cabinet is 6 months or newer, or you have recently modernized it, then you are 100% correct.. MAME is not the same.

What has changed in the last 6 months is the ArcadeVGA.

With the help of ATI, Andy Warne has developed a special ATI Radeon 7000 AGP based video card that outputs only 15kHZ RGB video signal. A video card that will not work with your PC.. you must connect it to to a real arcade monitor (real arcade monitor is not TV!)

Through hardware firmware modifications, they video card natively supports all arcade monitor resolutions. (So no need to fix video frequency, nor hardware stretching, or any direct video manipulation).

There have been many reviews posted of the ArcadeVGA, and it is 100% accurate (down to the pixel size, shade, location, refresh rate, etc) to the real PCB.

You can get more info here:

http://www.ultimarc.com/avgainf.html

Andy is also the maker of the I-PAC / J-PAC and has been in the industry for many many years.

Prior to the ArcadeVGA it was "almost right" but not. (Since people used ATI video cards to try and output the correct resolution and frequency).

A lot has changed in the last 6 months, and I'm sticking by it.

Mind you this is an argument for video quality only.. MAME'd machines have long since mastered the Audio quality (and surpassed it), controller feel and gameplay correctness.

I guess your last argument is the moral one of ROMZ ownership. Well, there are companies out there that will now sell you ROM images of 80's classics to be used with MAME or their own in-house emulation system. So the industry is also waking up to it.

Here's a great link for that:

http://www.starroms.com/



Our classic arcade ROM database contains over 60 games at prices as low as $2 per title!

StarROMs was established to provide an inexpensive and legal source for classic video games. These are the original games exactly as you played them in the arcade. Now you can legally download the ROM and play the game at home, as often as you like, with your favorite emulator!

[zektor]

For my response to the "Arcade PCB > Mame" debate:

I am an emulation "freak" (as most of you guys and gals know), but I will say that a true arcade machine is better than a "Mame'd" version. Sure, I can build a cab and the game(s) I play on it may be sound perfect and pixel pefect to the original arcade machine. Everything may act exactly the same in every which way. But, still, I would think that the true arcade cab is superior. Why? Because my knowing that I am playing an emulated machine is what does this. If I never knew it on the other hand, I would think I was playing the real machine and I would think IT was superior. I hope I made some sort of sense here. The mind is a silly bugger ain't it? LOL

[Kid Ice]

"Don't knock it till you tried it"..

I've played mame and non-mame'd games ON THE SAME PHYSICAL BOX. And for the life of me can't tell the difference.

saying stuff like "you got stuff lost in the transition" well what stuff!? What transition? Are you aware that the ROM files are PHYSICAL bit-for-bit dumps of the ROM's from the PCB? Are you aware that MAME 100% emulates functional CPUs?

MAME ARCADE does not equal MAME on your computer!!! Playing MAME on a 21" Sony Trinitron computer monitor with a computer keyboard is not even close to the real thing.. it sucks!

So, find someone who did a real MAME conversion, check out the quality, and then come back here and tell us how it sucks.

Someone said it sucks? Did I miss something?

[Gamemaster_ca_2003]

Real arcade boards > MAME

I agree with that statement 100%(not to menetion they look cool), but I can't spend money on decicated cabs. Even though there's only a handful of arcade games I truly enjoyed and want to play on this machine, the cost of buying dedicated cabs would kill me.

I anxiously await the ability to play Street Fighter II on this thing. :rocker:

then just buy the boards for every game and go have fun.

[leonk]

Yes,

you will always know it's a PC, but then again go prove the XBOX and PS/2 aren't becoming PC's either. I can sure as heck run Linux on both of them, and connect to the internet with a web browser, play MP3's and run ICQ. :D

The important thing is when I'm in the middle of a game (going nuts with the joystick in an intense session of Metal Slug X with my brother, or trying to kick his ass in Ultimate Mortal Combat 3) I get so drawn into the game, I forget it's a PC!!!

For me it feels like the real thing, and that's all that matters!

GAME ON!

[buttasuperb]

GAME ON!

Indeed.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/images/smiles/2003_cheers.gif

[chadtower]

Butta.... I just got my frist cab. I haven't even been able to open it yet, since I didn't get a key with it. If you have all of these pcbs, how much work is it to switch pcb when you want to play a different game? I have so much to learn about arcade hardware.

[buttasuperb]

Well, I only have 1 cab, and it's a dedicated MK2 cab, so I've never switched out any pcb's from it. I play my CPS2 and MVS stuff through a supergun.

Some arcade hardware has a motherboard and then the games attach to it. CPS2, MVS, Sega STV, Atomiswave, and I'm sure others are like this. With these formats it would be easy to switch games, because you could just mount the motherboard inside the cab, and just switch the games.

Older games are usually stand alone pcb's. In my MK2 cab, the pcb is mounted to the side of the cab. Now playing another game should be as simple as unconnecting the jamma connector from one game, and connecting to another. But if you want the new game mounted inside the cab, you would have to do some extra work.

I do know that certain cabs have a flat surface that slides out of the cab, to make switching games much easier.

[leonk]

There is a company out there that makes a JAMMA switcher (google for it). What it does is it basically supplies power to all your JAMMA boards, and then you have a special key combo that switches the video between the JAMMA boards.

It's very complicated, and limiting.

If you want a dozen or more games on your machine, MAME is the only way to go.. if you want just a few, PCBs doesn't look that bad (except it's $$$$)

[buttasuperb]

If you want a dozen or more games on your machine, MAME is the only way to go..

No, MAME is not the only way to go. Sure it's an option, but I'm not sure why you make it out to be the be all end all of this shit.

MVS or CPS2 for example, it would take maybe a minute to change a game. With MVS you can have up to 6 games available at once. Is that so tough? I like having to open up my CPS2 supergun and actually putting in a game, I'm sure it would be the same on a cab. I prefer taking out a MVS cart from the one slot, grabbing another game and playing, to scrolling through a menu to look for which game I want to play. That's just me.

I have a question about MAME. Can you go into test mode in each game and listen to all the audio tracks and sound effects? What's the quality on that?

[chadtower]

I have to assume, and I may be wrong, that most of the games I want on my cab are not going to be MVS or Jamma. I want to play games like Ms Pacman, Berzerk, Donkey Kong... Galaga... the 194x series... I'm not nearly as concerned with 100% perfection as I am concerned with being able to play things I've never seen/played before in a cabinet... if I have to sacrifice 5% of the experience in order to gain that sort of versatility, so be it.

[Oobgarm]

Changed the thread title, as it seems that we've gone into a ROM debate here.

[buttasuperb]

chad, then MAME may be the better choice for you. I'm not 100% sure, but I think most older games are all their own stand alone PCB's. I'm not sure if 1942 and 1943 are on CPS1 or not, but 1944 and 19xx are on CPS2.

Just keep that side art on that cab of yours!

[Arcade Antics]

Arcade Antics:

As far as the art work goes, there are many places on the internet that will sell you silkscreen original reproduction of the CP art, side art work and marquee reprints. The quality is going to be identical to the original. So if you're trying to just reproduce one system (e.g. PacMan, or an arcade machine that's close to imposible to find.. you can do it).

As far as the hard drive noise, the noisiest part of an arcade, believe it or not, is the monitor!

Apart from that, arcade machines have fans on their power supplies, and fans on most of their PCB's. As far as HD noise, you can install an HD into your system that is dead quiet (like the one I'm using).

Also, don't forget that games like Area 51 and newer all have hard drives connect to the PCB's.

When it comes to MAME, it all depends how far you want to go, and how much $$$ you got to spend. But if you are dedicated enough, and work on it for a long time, you can tweak it to the point where even during bootup you'll never be able to tell there's a PC in the box!!!

By the time my 25" original Arcade monitor warms up and shows the RGB video, Windows XP is booting.. but I got XP tweaked to the point where you don't even know it's XP.. Heck, you can't even tell it's Windows!!!

1 Button turns on the system.. 1 button turns off the system. No extra buttons on the CP that aren't found on the original arcade machine.

And best of all, you gotta put in quaters to play!

Unless I tell people, they never know it's not "the real thing" or what ever that means today...

I personally get attached to the actual feeling and gameplay. I don't get attached to ROM chips and PCB plastic. I can buy that stuff for pennies at the local electronics shop. :D

That's all great, but you're missing my point... which (like me :) ) is very simple: it's not the same thing as playing a dedicated original cabinet. Period.

Everything else you mention is fine, but has nothing to do with the fact that a dedicated Asteroids machine is not the same as a mame cab with arcade monitor and a PC inside.

[chadtower]

chad, then MAME may be the better choice for you. I'm not 100% sure, but I think most older games are all their own stand alone PCB's. I'm not sure if 1942 and 1943 are on CPS1 or not, but 1944 and 19xx are on CPS2.

Just keep that side art on that cab of yours!

Since it will be a while (I have other stuff to take care of first and I have a lot to learn first) before I take this on, I may eventually decide to restore this cab rather than convert it. It does have potential to be a beautiful cabinet without a ton of difficult work (I say that without knowing exactly what is up with the monitor... slight burnin and ghosting).

I mean hell, how hard can it be to find a really dead cab that you can convert without destroying one that is still useful?

[Raccoon Lad]

I must say that from experience, emulation if far from perfect. It's usually the audio that's imperfect.

I own an Up'n Down machine, and comparing it to the emulation in mame, I can say the game PLAYS the same, but it doesn't quite SOUND the same.


..and I don't think it ever will.

[98PaceCar]

The site of the guy that makes the JAMMA switcher is www.multigame.com . I recommend everything he has available. Clay is a great guy and a heck of a tech!

@Chadtower,
It's usually pretty easy to find cabs that are suitable for mame. A lot of collectors cringe when you mention mameing a cab, but my thought is as long as you aren't using something that has nice artwork on it or is just a rare cab, go for it. There were tons of crap games made in the late 80's that are great for mameing! Now, if you are looking for a cockpit star wars cab to mame, that's a different story! Post on rec.games.video.arcade.collecting and see what collectors are in your area. You can probably find someone that will help with your monitor issues (sounds like it just needs a cap kit). If you've got any specific questions I can help with, feel free to ask!

As a collector of cabs more than anything else, I have to say that mame is a great resource, but I wouldn't trade any of my existing collection for a mame cab. Most of what I have, mame cannot emulate completely. From the blacklight effects on Tron to the half silvered mirror with 3d backdrop on my Warlords, mame just can't compete. I do see mame as great for playing games that I might not remember or want to see if I still like them before buying. But it's not and never will be the same as the real thing..

98PaceCar

[chadtower]

@Chadtower,
...my thought is as long as you aren't using something that has nice artwork on it or is just a rare cab, go for it.

This is pretty much a nutshell of my thinking for right now. The artwork on that cab is just too intact and too pretty to do away with. I may just restore the sucker and then decide what to do with it from there since this IS a game that mame shouldn't have any trouble with.

A cap kit... capacitors?

[IntvGene]

I must say that from experience, emulation if far from perfect. It's usually the audio that's imperfect. I own an Up'n Down machine, and comparing it to the emulation in mame, I can say the game PLAYS the same, but it doesn't quite SOUND the same. ..and I don't think it ever will.

I agree. I have a couple of cocktails and I think that the sound is very different from MAME.

BTW, nice choice, Raccoon Lad, Up' N Down is an awesome game.

[Flack]

This is one of those arguments that never gets won by either side.

"MAME Cabinet Haters" believe that the emulated version of an arcade game, even when using an arcade monitor and the original arcade controls, can never be as good as the original. Even if the emulation is 100% accurate, the fact that there's a computer inside there instead of a PCB ruins the experience for them.

"MAME Cabinet Lovers" believe that the emulated version of an arcade game is good enough for them. Whatever is lost in the translation from PCB to PC is made up for in versatility and cost, since MAME cabinets can run thousands of games and the cost/game ratio is very low compared to original arcade cabinets.

I have a friend who loves Galaga, and when we went to the OKGE convention there was a newer looking cabinet there playing Galaga. My friend hopped right on it and began blasting away. This is a guy who LOVES Galaga, and afterwards someone came over and hit a key and the whole game dropped into Windows -- it was a MAME cabinet, and we didn't even realize it.

As I said before, it all boils down to personal preference. I've heard complaints that MAME cabs don't run some games 100% correctly. Probably true. I've also yet to see a "real" cab that you could swap between Tron, Dragon's Lair, and Pac-Man.

MAME Cabinets are great for what they are -- an inexpensive recreation of the arcade experience for those who are limited on space or cash.

Flack

[98PaceCar]

A cap kit... capacitors?

Yep. Basically you replace all of the electrolytic capacitors on the monitor chassis with new ones. They tend to dry out over the years and cause all kinds of weird problems. Probably 80% of the time doing a cap kit will cure your troubles.

But, it's not terribly easy to do and you open yourself up for some nasty shocks if you don't do it right. If you've never discharged a monitor before, find someone that will show you how to do it first. Trust me, it's worth it. I've been hit one time while working on a monitor and that one time was enough for me to learn to be very very careful!!

[chadtower]

Yeah, I have no intention of playing with that. I get some burnin, some weird ghosting, and some lines that follow the characters aroudn the screen. Sounds like that may be it... How would I go about finding someone in my area that can do this?

I've been doing some reading up on arcade monitors... they are basically 15khz and are the same as, say, those lovely rgb monitors people are always seeking, yes? If this is the case, isn't it possible that you could work up a switch between two different inputs? I'm thinking a switch on the back of the cab that would allow it to switch between the original pcb and a mame box on the inside running one of the video cards from the jpac guys...

[Flack]

Post in R.G.V.A.C. (rec.games.video.arcade.collecting) and you can find local people. If not, go to a local arcade and see if any of the games have a service tag on them, and get the company's name and number from that.

Flack

[chadtower]

HAHAHA! I was poking around arcadecontrols.com and found this:

http://www.arcadecontrols.com/arcade_customarcade.shtml

I do believe I have the (or one of VERY few) prototypes for this product... I bought it off of Ron Corcoran last year.

[98PaceCar]

Like Flack said, use the RGVAC newsgroup to find someone local..

Yep, most arcade monitors are just 15khz with rgb inputs. Pretty simple, really. There are some that are medium res and even a few vga, but you rarely see those in older games.

You could rig up a switch to go between a pc and your board or you could use the jamma switcher from www.multigame.com along with a j-pac from www.ultimarc.com. That would be a lot easier than rigging up something on your own I would think..

[chadtower]

That jamma switcher is pretty cool... so I could actually make this a mame cab without removing any of the internals at all... just adding to them. Hrm...

[Chunky]

i still want to do this, i just need to find a cabinet. that and a way to download all the ROMZ i wanna play. I gave up on it awhile back and gave up on my hotrod arcade stick, but i could use that and it's parts. I just need some kinda start.

[chadtower]

Oh I definitely want a real mame cab, but I don't think I want to gut and redo this particular cab. I would have to do it with a crappy older one, not one with artwork like this one. But if I could just ADD mame via that jammer switch, then I really wouldn't have to alter the cab at all, just add that switcher and run a video cable outside or even just keep the PC under it... I like that solution.

Wait... now that I Think about it, that's a board switcher, not a video switcher, so would not work with a PC... just another jamma board... unless I'm mistaken.

[98PaceCar]

Wait... now that I Think about it, that's a board switcher, not a video switcher, so would not work with a PC... just another jamma board... unless I'm mistaken.

It is a board switcher, but with the addition of the j-pac to handle all of the jamma to pc issues, your pc becomes just another board. The point of the j-pac is to standardize all of the inputs and outputs to match the jamma standard, so it will work for you!

[chadtower]

I see... so that really could just be added with ease. That would be mega sweet... initially, probably at a cost of about $200 to me... the cost of the jpac and the multijamma, since I already have extra machines to mame up...

Why does christmas have to be so soon?!

So, to be sure I have the right picture, using the jpac and the multijamma, you can add mame to a jamma machine? That's damn cool.

[leonk]

That's all great, but you're missing my point... which (like me :) ) is very simple: it's not the same thing as playing a dedicated original cabinet. Period.

Everything else you mention is fine, but has nothing to do with the fact that a dedicated Asteroids machine is not the same as a mame cab with arcade monitor and a PC inside.

You still did not tell the rest of us why it's not the same!!! saying "it's not the same" doesn't make it so! I have tried to be very technical in my explaination, yet you seem to miss the point.

[leonk]

No, MAME is not the only way to go. Sure it's an option, but I'm not sure why you make it out to be the be all end all of this shit.

MVS or CPS2 for example, it would take maybe a minute to change a game. With MVS you can have up to 6 games available at once. Is that so tough? I like having to open up my CPS2 supergun and actually putting in a game, I'm sure it would be the same on a cab. I prefer taking out a MVS cart from the one slot, grabbing another game and playing, to scrolling through a menu to look for which game I want to play. That's just me.

I have a question about MAME. Can you go into test mode in each game and listen to all the audio tracks and sound effects? What's the quality on that?

Buttasurperb,

The one thing you keep on forgetting to tell the rest of us here is that you don't have an arcade machine with all this stuff in it!!!

You actually have a supergun, which is very different from an arcade machine! For once, changing boards/carts for you is much easier than for me.. I can see it now.. pulling the machine away from the wall everytime I want to change a game!!!! Heck, I guess it's going to be a bit easier, ever since I replaced the feet with wheels... but stilll!

Heck, come to think of it.. my arcade experience is more realistic then yours! Can you truly tell me that your RGB -> NTSC converter on your supergun is as realistic as my RGB arcade monitor??? I can show you many web sites saying it ain't so..

As far as video/dip switches.. I can always set dip switches via the "TAB" key. So.. YES! I can change dip switches/get into test mode.

[Arcade Antics]

You still did not tell the rest of us why it's not the same!!! saying "it's not the same" doesn't make it so! I have tried to be very technical in my explaination, yet you seem to miss the point.

Sorry - I'm fairly stupid. :)

All I was trying to say is that a dedicated game, I don't care which one: Asteroids, Pac-Man, Millipede, whatever, is not the same as a cabinet with the same game running on an emulator. They aren't the same thing, just as a Pontiac Fiero with a Ferrari kit body is not the same as an actual Ferrari. Even if you went as far as to put a similar motor and other equipment into the Fiero, it's still what it is: a tricked out Fiero. There's nothing wrong with that in and of itself - I was just saying that one is not the same as the other. You can enjoy both, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

Here's another of my dumb analogies: a bowl of Kellogg's Corn Flakes + adding your own sugar is NOT the same as a bowl of Kellogg's Frosted Flakes. Even if you go as far as to measure out the exact same amount of sugar and add it to the Corn Flakes, you're still eating two different things for breakfast.

[leonk]

Sorry - I'm fairly stupid. :)

All I was trying to say is that a dedicated game, I don't care which one: Asteroids, Pac-Man, Millipede, whatever, is not the same as a cabinet with the same game running on an emulator. They aren't the same thing, just as a Pontiac Fiero with a Ferrari kit body is not the same as an actual Ferrari. Even if you went as far as to put a similar motor and other equipment into the Fiero, it's still what it is: a tricked out Fiero. There's nothing wrong with that in and of itself - I was just saying that one is not the same as the other. You can enjoy both, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

Here's another of my dumb analogies: a bowl of Kellogg's Corn Flakes + adding your own sugar is NOT the same as a bowl of Kellogg's Frosted Flakes. Even if you go as far as to measure out the exact same amount of sugar and add it to the Corn Flakes, you're still eating two different things for breakfast.

Can you tell me why it's not the "same" without using analogies??

All the MAME games I play sound the same as the real PCB, they look like the real PCB, they're as fast as the real PCB, and I can switch games faster than the real PCB (if it can switch).. oh, and the controls feel like the real PCB..

I miss where it's different??

Sure, some people complain about the sound.. not all 3,000+ games are perfect. Some people complain about graphics.. have any of you seen a vector based game look goot on a regular CRT!? Why not take that vector based PCB and hook it up to a MK2 monitor and see how good it looks..

My favorite games are mostly Neo Geo based and then some. I actually have all 3,000 ROMS, and did spend 3 months going through each one and narrowing it down to ~240 games.

That's still 240 games!!!! Imagine 240 PCBs.. Imagine trying to find a PCB of judge dredd (proto!) or a few other games I enjoy now (that are available only in Japan).

I did own a true blue CPS2 board, and I did run tests of it vs the MAMEd version. I like the MAMEd version better because I have it hooked up to a 2.1 system and can hear sounds the original cab couldn't using the crappy 4" arcade speakers!! Apart from that, it's identical.

[chadtower]

All of this has me thinking... if it's really not that hard for someone with the basic skills to convert an old cab to a MAME cab, why don't more people produce them? Have I been mistaken in my assumption that a MAME cab sells for quite a bit of money if it's a good one?

[Arcade Antics]

Can you tell me why it's not the "same" without using analogies??

:o *sigh*

Okay. Open up a dedicated Asteroids cabinet. What do you see?

Now open up a mame cabinet. What do you see?

Do you see the same thing? I don't. They're different. That's it. :)

[leonk]

All of this has me thinking... if it's really not that hard for someone with the basic skills to convert an old cab to a MAME cab, why don't more people produce them? Have I been mistaken in my assumption that a MAME cab sells for quite a bit of money if it's a good one?

No.. you are not mistaken at all.. there are a lot people all over the world that make MAME cabs..

Talking about MAME cabs here is like asking for Windows XP help on the Linux newgroups.. you'd think that most people in the world run Linux! :D

Visit www.arcade-controls.com for more help.. check out the chat forums.. they're extremly active!

Also, yes.. a very good MAMEd machine will fetch top $$$.. there are a lot of people that don't convert old arcade machines, but rather build their own from scratch.

This can get very expensive! Especially if you put something like a WG 9200 monitor into it! (which is an arcade, medium res, hi res, PC hybrid!)

[leonk]

:o *sigh*

Okay. Open up a dedicated Asteroids cabinet. What do you see?

Now open up a mame cabinet. What do you see?

Do you see the same thing? I don't. They're different. That's it. :)


ehehehehehe..

I don't know.. the inside of my cab looks almost identical to the inside of an Area 51 arcade cab. I don't have a case, I don't have a floppy drive, nor a cd-rom drive, nor anything that will make one think it's a PC.. So if you want to compare on component basis.. than that's just silly. Apart from that, when the machine boots (the whole 10 seconds) you can't even tell it's Windows, DOS, or arcade PCB booting!

But that's assuming you can get inside my cab! (it's locked.. via the original keyloack in the back, and the original working coin mechanism in the front).

But when my family/friends play with it, they never know.. and that's all that counts for me..

It's all about the "feeling" (hence why a fierro with a ferarri kit never feels the same) but MAME does as long as you do a good job!

[Anonymous]

Just because I love sticking my nose in discussions: I think that having a dedicated cabinet is very different from having a mame machine. It is as different has having an arcade cabinet in your basement as opposed to having one in an arcade or pizza joint. It depends on the experience you are trying to recapture. Being able to play Galage on a cabinet with an Ultimate joystick surrounded by 20 buttons is going to be a distinct play experience from a ball stick and two buttons (fire on either side for left and right handed people), not to mention the lack of side art for the particular game you are playing.

The biggest difference is in your mind. When you start a mame game, you start it with the knowledge that at any point you can just hit a button and play another game. There is not need to create a bond with the game you are playing. Case in point. I have a dedicated frogger cocktail cabinet, and a a Marvel Vs. Capcom machine which will soon be mamed. once I have the mame machine running, I could play frogger on it, and it will be close to perfect. But it will never be the same experience as sitting down at the cocktail cabinet with one game and one game only.

[Flack]

You people must be much better at arcade games than I am. When I am playing games I rarely have time to check out the side art, much less stick my head inside the cabinet and examine the components while playing.

As far as "recreating the experience" ... I guess I could build a replica of the bowling alley I used to hang out in as a kid, then hire 50+ elderly women who smoke to fill up the place and then put in a couple of beat up Pac-Man cabs ..

Flack

[Arcade Antics]

You people must be much better at arcade games than I am. When I am playing games I rarely have time to check out the side art, much less stick my head inside the cabinet and examine the components while playing.

Shoot, I can ROLL THE SCORE on Asteroids and beat Dragon's Lair while playing from inside the cabinet. Just remove the backglass so I can tap the buttons and I'm set. :P

[leonk]

Just because I love sticking my nose in discussions: I think that having a dedicated cabinet is very different from having a mame machine. It is as different has having an arcade cabinet in your basement as opposed to having one in an arcade or pizza joint. It depends on the experience you are trying to recapture. Being able to play Galage on a cabinet with an Ultimate joystick surrounded by 20 buttons is going to be a distinct play experience from a ball stick and two buttons (fire on either side for left and right handed people), not to mention the lack of side art for the particular game you are playing.

The biggest difference is in your mind. When you start a mame game, you start it with the knowledge that at any point you can just hit a button and play another game. There is not need to create a bond with the game you are playing. Case in point. I have a dedicated frogger cocktail cabinet, and a a Marvel Vs. Capcom machine which will soon be mamed. once I have the mame machine running, I could play frogger on it, and it will be close to perfect. But it will never be the same experience as sitting down at the cocktail cabinet with one game and one game only.

I know what you mean about the CP..

nothing pisses me off more than seeing mame cabs that have 4 joysticks, 2 spinners, 2 guns, 20 buttons and a roller in the middle.. what a zoo!

That's why when I build my MAME CP from scratch (to replace the beat up one that was on the cab) I only put 2 joysticks and 7 buttons a-la UMK3 formation.. (it also doubles nicely as a hybrid 6 button fighter and 4 btton neo-geo style controller in one).

As far as the feeling.. the only feeling I miss is my pockets getting lighter from the loss of quaters, but then again, if it's your own PCB, you always get your $$$ back.. :D

anotherfluke,

I was shocked to actually find out that most (if not all) bar top arcade machines made in the last 3-5 years (you know the ones you play blackjack or slots or what not with a touch screen) are all PCs rather than dedicated PCB's..

You should check it out at a local auction when they show the things boot and work.

Hmmm.. does it make them less than PCB?

[buttasuperb]

The one thing you keep on forgetting to tell the rest of us here is that you don't have an arcade machine with all this stuff in it!!!

I've said before that I play my CPS2 and MVS stuff on a supergun. You keep forgetting that I own a dedicated MK2 cab as well.


You actually have a supergun, which is very different from an arcade machine! For once, changing boards/carts for you is much easier than for me.. I can see it now.. pulling the machine away from the wall everytime I want to change a game!!!! Heck, I guess it's going to be a bit easier, ever since I replaced the feet with wheels... but stilll!

With my MK2 cab I can get to the insides in probably 30 seconds or so. When I get a cab for CPS2 and MVS (probably one for each) it will be a cab that opens from the front, and has a slide out tray that the motherboard will be on. I'm sweating just thinking about all that work. :roll:


Heck, come to think of it.. my arcade experience is more realistic then yours! Can you truly tell me that your RGB -> NTSC converter on your supergun is as realistic as my RGB arcade monitor??? I can show you many web sites saying it ain't so..

True it's not quite as good as RGB, but the S-Video on the CPS2 gun is at least 95% the quality of RGB.


As far as video/dip switches.. I can always set dip switches via the "TAB" key. So.. YES! I can change dip switches/get into test mode.

I figured that. You didn't answer my question about the quality of the music?

I hate to bring the morality crap back into this, but it seems most of you MAME heads bring up that you play MAME because "it's cheaper and you can't afford the real thing." I really want a '96 Twin Turbo Nissan 300zx. But I can't afford one. :( By your logic, I should go out and steal one.

Another thing, do you play newer Neo games like Rage of the Dragons, Matrimelee, or SvC on your MAME cabs? If you do, you're a fucking prick. If not, GAME ON!

[98PaceCar]

I'm not much of a console collector, but I love arcades and have 20 some odd scattered in my house right now.. That doesn't make me an expert by any means, but I've been down the mame road as well as the dedicated game road and can offer what I've learned and seen...

I think you'll find that true arcade collectors don't like mame. I've built one for a friend and yes, it was a nice setup and it was cool to have thousands of games in one place. But it wasn't the same as the real thing. For one thing, playing a vertical game on a horizontal monitor sucks. You already mentioned having control panels full of the necessary controls. I'd much rather have a dedicated cab with the correct controls and layouts. Don't even get me started on playing a vector game in mame. Not even close to the real thing.

Plus, with mame, you have none of the atmosphere related to the game. Take Tron for instance. It's a great game. But it's the dual blacklights and all the inner artwork that makes it immersive to play. It's still fun on mame and may run just as well as the original board, but it's not the same experience.

Now, not everyone has the room, technical skills, or money to support an arcade collecting hobby. It takes lots of all of these to have the true collector pieces. So mame is a viable alternative for them. Is it wrong to use mame or to mame cabs? No way. I've repaired many a board using roms taken from mame and I'm glad to see that thousands of games have been documented and preserved by the mame team. But as an arcade collector, I can tell you firsthand that playing the games I like on mame is not the same as playing them on a dedicated machine. It may be the same code and emulated 100%, but the experience is not the same and never will be.

98PaceCar

[buttasuperb]

Mr. PaceCar, have you had a chance to talk to your friend about those CPS2 B boards yet?

[Anonymous]

I actually went off on a little bit of a tangent with my reply. The core of what I was trying to say is that regardless of how well the PC emulates the original hardware, the difference is mame itself. side art, cabinet work, and controls do also factor into the different experience, but something has to be said for only having one game in front of you, without the ability to switch to another game in a heartbeat.

When you have an arcade game, or there is an arcade game near your house, you build a relationship with that game. you learn it's nuances, it's intricacies and faults. And while you can recreate these experiences with a MAME cabinet, you will not have a unique machine on which to build those experiences for every game. I'm not trying to argue that the hardware is physically different, or that you can tell a difference, I'm talking about the spiritual relationship that occurs between any person and a thing they value. With one arcade game, you are limited by your choices. Your medium becomes a part of the interaction, and fosters a connection between you and that game. With MAME, you have the ability to exit a game and enter another at a whim; the boundaries of the medium are reduced or destroyed, thus altering the core experience. MAME by it's very nature of allowing quick access to multiple games changes the nature of game playing. Many people nowadays will quit a game right in the middle, once their nostalgia quotient has been filled. The goal of the game no longer becomes the high score or the next level, it becomes a notch, a piece of food in someone's desire to take their fill of old games, a lost childhood, a lack of funds from when quarters mattered. And to some degree we will never fill that void because we cannot replicate shakeys or aladdin's castle or tower lanes the way we did before. But owning an arcade does to some degree, as does MAME. But mame is just one tiny step away from an original arcade. Even if it is a good step (I will never argue that having multiple games readily accessible is bad :)), it is still a step away from what arcades used to be, and therefore different.

[98PaceCar]

Mr. PaceCar, have you had a chance to talk to your friend about those CPS2 B boards yet?

I haven't heard back from the bum yet, but I'll call him tonight. I'm pretty sure he's still got some left. I'll pm you here when I find out!

[Flack]

If we're down to debating whether or not the "spiritual relationship" is different or not, I'll bow out.

Flack

[leonk]

With my MK2 cab I can get to the insides in probably 30 seconds or so. When I get a cab for CPS2 and MVS (probably one for each) it will be a cab that opens from the front, and has a slide out tray that the motherboard will be on. I'm sweating just thinking about all that work. :roll:


Well, for most of us with regular arcade machines with the back against the wall, 30 seconds is not a feasible number. Most arcade machines are on feet.. good luck moving it away from the wall everytime you want to get in. @_@




True it's not quite as good as RGB, but the S-Video on the CPS2 gun is at least 95% the quality of RGB.

OK.. what about the other 99.99% of JAMMA boards that don't have S-Video out??? again.. MAME looks more realistic than the real thing in this case..


I figured that. You didn't answer my question about the quality of the music?

Sorry.. but I did. It sounds better than the original for the CPS2 game I tried. Can't compared 2.1 300W system to 2 4X speakers, now can you? (Comparing real PCB arcade machine to modded one running with top-of-the-line speaker system).

Heck.. some people go as far as installing real car amps, car speakers, and 10" subs in their arcade machine!!!

I initally was going this way.. but decided against it.. the bucking magnets I got were not strong enough to offset the magnets in my 6 1/2" Alpines.. :evil:


I hate to bring the morality crap back into this, but it seems most of you MAME heads bring up that you play MAME because "it's cheaper and you can't afford the real thing." I really want a '96 Twin Turbo Nissan 300zx. But I can't afford one. :( By your logic, I should go out and steal one.

Another thing, do you play newer Neo games like Rage of the Dragons, Matrimelee, or SvC on your MAME cabs? If you do, you're a fucking prick. If not, GAME ON!

This is the only "bad" thing about MAME. No.. I don't play new production games on my arcade.. simply because I don't go to arcade's today, and hence have no need to recreate my childhood arcade experience here.

This also opens up other cans of worms.. PS2, XBOX copying.. SNES, N64, GBA copiers, Mp3s and pirating software..

it was here a long time ago, and it'll be here a long time after I leave.. I'll leave these fights to the lawyers.

On another hand, don't forget that a good portion of MAME games are actually considered abonded-wares! If a company goes under, according to the law, after a set amount of years, the product becomes public domain!

But what do I know about that.. :o

[leonk]

I can tell you firsthand that playing the games I like on mame is not the same as playing them on a dedicated machine. It may be the same code and emulated 100%, but the experience is not the same and never will be.
98PaceCar

... and I respect your point of view.

some people know these shortcomings, and have multiple mame machines (one horizontal, one vertical). Then again, with the real PCB, you'll never put a pacman board (or 99% of the shooters) on a horizontal, so why expect MAME to do any better??

MAME can only be as good as the real PCB which it emulates.. nothing better.

For the games I play (late 80's to late 90's) MAME feels great and right on the money. It feels and looks better than playing those games on anything else (GBA, NES, PS/2 or XBOX) and many of these arcade games have been ported to these systems too!

But MAME feels and looks better.. and that's all I care about.

[leonk]

...it is still a step away from what arcades used to be, and therefore different.

OK.. good point..

but how is it different from running a PCB at home, or running many PCBs in one arcade or PCBs on a supergun??

in all these cases you will not be able to recreate the arcade feel since you're either:

- in control of the H/W hence no loss $$$ feeling
- the interface is not the same.. there were no mass produced multi-jamma machines of different breeds (Pacman + CPS2 in one machine)
- Supergun feels less real than MAME since you're sitting in your sofa and playing rather than standing in front of a machine.

so I guess it all boils down to what feels right for you..

and for hundreds of us, MAME does the job very well.