Dear Rockstar: Stop being assholes. Signed, Jess.

[ManekiNeko]

I support free expression in video games, but I'm tired of watching game companies introduce progressively more disturbing and violent themes in their products. I'm most disgusted with Rockstar Games, which plans to release a game that makes even the controversial Grand Theft Auto III look tasteful by comparison. I mean, what kind of demented idiot comes up with a game like Manhunt, where you play a convicted felon who's released from death row only to become a hired killer for a snuff film director? Where does it end?
An acquaintance of mine from another forum once complained, "What's going to be next after Grand Theft Auto III? Granny Sodomizer?" It was a hilarious observation, but judging from what Rockstar is releasing now, it seems like it'll only be a matter of time before such a game is actually released.

JR

[jerkov]

I personally don't have a problem with the content of the game, but I am pissed that they're doing this instead of another Grand Theft Auto. Manhunt might be an okay game, but I need another GTA dammit! Something with a city about twice as big as Liberty City, tons of vehicles, weapons, etc., more variety in the missions, on and on. Doesn't Rockstar realize that another GTA is guaranteed money in the bank? Why take a risk with something that may not sell?

[ManekiNeko]

I hope it DOESN'T sell. I'm sick of these games. They're disgusting.

JR

[Aswald]

Didn't I complain about this a while back?

[djbeatmongrel]

I fully support Rockstars choice in making ManHunt. I think any company has the right to sell any type of content on a chosen medium. As long as the consumer is aware of what is presented before they purchase it, it's fine. I have one major concern for the release of this game is the amount of crimes that are probably going to use it as a scapegoat. Parents need to monitor the childs gaming and regulate what they buy. Also, they should really pay attention to see if there child has a good grasp on reality.

by the way, I'm very excited for this release, i can't wait to play it. The last heavily violent game i've been excited for was thrill kill but that sure as hell never made it to my ps(well maybe a cdr did but thats besides the point).

[ManekiNeko]

Didn't I complain about this a while back?

What, Manhunt specifically, or these games in general?

JR

[Ed Oscuro]

I fully support Rockstars choice in making ManHunt.

MBLA, Official Sponsor of Rockstar games

[MarkM2112]

Doesn't Rockstar realize that another GTA is guaranteed money in the bank? Why take a risk with something that may not sell?

Actually, IMHO, this is one of the biggest problems in the video game industry... Companies stifling their own creativity, not taking risks, and putting out sequel after sequel after sequel until all the games are the same. In a way, I applaud Rockstar for taking a chance on something new, however, I wish that they chose to go in a different direction...

[Raccoon Lad]

Next from Rockstar: Copy-Cat Killer; the game where you murder innocent people in the style of famous mass-murderers! Features the ability to dis-embowel AND wearing your victim's face as your mask!
Eat body parts to regain health, and screw corpses you dig up from the graveyard to regain stamina.

Rated E for everyone.

[jerkov]

Actually, IMHO, this is one of the biggest problems in the video game industry... Companies stifling their own creativity, not taking risks, and putting out sequel after sequel after sequel until all the games are the same. In a way, I applaud Rockstar for taking a chance on something new, however, I wish that they chose to go in a different direction...
This is a very good point, and I too am glad to see companies being more creative and taking more risks, but GTA 3 and Vice City are two of the very, very few newer releases that manage to hold my interest and keep me addicted. In fact, in both cases, I was hopelessly addicted until I completed them. I've been playing GTA since the first one came out on the PC several years ago, and its one series where I wouldn't mind seeing sequel after sequel come out. Just add a new city, cars, weapons, and missions, and I'm there.

[Aswald]

In general.

These days, the companies' idea of "creativity" is more gross-out, more mindless violence, more gore, more smut. It's bad for society, and it sure as hell isn't doing anything good for videogaming.

Company Marketer:
"Hey, let's come out with a video where you play...a child molester! In full 3-D detail! In fact, you can be one of several kinds!"

Idiot CEO:
"Hey, yeah, it'll be so controversial, so `rad,' people will snap it up! They'll go for anything!"

[Raccoon Lad]

NAMBLA: the Awakening

[Balloon Fight]

I like these games, because you can do stuff that you wouldnt do in real life.
i.e. Throwing grenades everywhere, wreaking havoc with a rocket launcher, stealing a lamborghini (sp?) then running over a jogger.
As long as ESRB doesnt shove a pole up Rockstars ass, and continue to give then a teen rating i dont care.

[ManekiNeko]

In general.

These days, the companies' idea of "creativity" is more gross-out, more mindless violence, more gore, more smut. It's bad for society, and it sure as hell isn't doing anything good for videogaming.

Company Marketer:
"Hey, let's come out with a video where you play...a child molester! In full 3-D detail! In fact, you can be one of several kinds!"

Idiot CEO:
"Hey, yeah, it'll be so controversial, so `rad,' people will snap it up! They'll go for anything!"

Yeah, they could call it "CSI: Miami: The Video Game".
I think Rockstar would probably release the Granny Sodomizer game first.

JR

[calthaer]

You are looking at the effects of a free-market economy in a country that has no sense of a moral or ethical compass whatsoever. As much as those games disgust me, too, I can't say that I think they should be banned from selling them or anything. People just have to not buy it, as it's becoming increasingly clear that any and every company will do whatever it takes to increase their bottom line. The only reason companies obey the laws is because it will cost them money, and if it's more cost-effective to disobey the law and pay the fine than it is to actually obey the law, they'll do that (case in point: pollution here in DE. Companies don't clean it up and pay the limp-wristed fines; it's cheaper).

Useful steps to register your disgust:

-Send correspondence to Wal-Mart, EBGames, and GameStop. Hopefully Wal-Mart wouldn't carry this, but...

-Do not purchase Max Payne 2 or any other Rockstar game. If you feel that strongly about it, you'll be willing to take this step and stay true to your convictions.

-Find something else here that I haven't thought of.

[ManekiNeko]

Useful steps to register your disgust:

-Send correspondence to Wal-Mart, EBGames, and GameStop. Hopefully Wal-Mart wouldn't carry this, but...

Yeah, I don't think anyone has to worry about that. EBGames and GameStop would likely be MORE interested in selling it due to its excessive violence.


-Do not purchase Max Payne 2 or any other Rockstar game. If you feel that strongly about it, you'll be willing to take this step and stay true to your convictions.

Done and done! And I mean done!
I may break down and buy Grand Theft Auto: Vice City eventually, but only if I can find it used.

JR

[AB Positive]

Yeah, I don't think anyone has to worry about that. EBGames and GameStop would likely be MORE interested in selling it due to its excessive violence.

JR

Well, let me put it this way:

Personally, I'm morbidly intrigued by this game...

Professionally I hate it. I hate selling GTA, and I'll hate having to put up with stupid parents who don't care it's a M game.

-AG

[MarioAllStar2600]

Let them make the game. Even though I for one will not buy it. We as people ahve to show them what this is doing to our society. NOTHING GOOD! So hopefully soon or later people will notice how sickening this is. I liked GTA 3, but thought Vice CIty was pushing it. The whole game promotes coke and killing sprees. :o

[Ed Oscuro]

My biggest problem is that there really aren't any good studies that are widely accepted (that I know of) on the issue.

One thing that's true, though, is that the people saying "oh, kids who play these games are letting loose their repressed emotions without hurting people." That's great, but

a.) People who write such things professionally usually aren't exactly immoral types themselves, and project their own morals onto everybody else.

b.) Ever felt really tense and angry after playing a round of CS? I know I have. Sometimes the virtual violence's persistence eventually effects the personality of the player in real life.

I used to put more stock (just a few months ago) in the "video games don't cause violence" argument, but after seeing how certain youngsters surround themselves in a cult of personality online, I feel that this is, on the whole, not a good thing.

[bluecollarninja]

ever watched scarface and then played grand theft auto vice city? total parrallels man.

[SoulBlazer]

Let them make it. We live in a free country and a free society, and despite that babble a few notes back, our 'moral compass' is just fine. Ever heard of different games for different folks, people? Don't like it, don't buy it, simple as that. The day they start censoring games in this country is the day they start restricting everything else. Raise the price, tax games if you must, but let them sell what they want to sell -- with a few special limits. I'm not convienced violent games cause violent behaviors in MATURE people -- hence the need to enforce the age limit more, but that's another thread.

[fcw3]

I'm half expecting the Columbine Simulator one day. Published under the guise of free expression (and poor taste). See how many of you class-mates you can off before first period. Customize your trench coat. Digitize your high school yearbook for a personalized feel to your victims.

Who thinks this wouldn't sell ?

FRED

[thegreatescape]

NAMBLA: the Awakening

I want to be Godfather Marlon Brando.......... LOL

On topic: Rockstar can release as many stupidly gory and controversial games as they want, but i sure as hell wont be buying any.
Im sure they wont have to spend a cent on advertising if they send a copy to 60 minutes x_x.

[kai123]

Too bad snuff films are illegal...wait with the popularity of manhunt maybe they will become more commmon place!!!!! Maybe they will release a bonus dvd with preorders. You know to hype people up about it. LOL

[evilmess]

Oh c'mon
Manhunt isn't any different than a dozen or more other games that have been released over the years. Loaded, Smash TV, Twisted Metal and many more hunt or be hunted titles.

What's next...

Dear Mr. King,
Your books are really scary and they might cause people to kill and mame others. Please write stories about puppy's and kittens and the happy chilrden that love them so much.

Thanks!

I seriously don't think we'll see "High School Hitman" or "Little Old Lady Raper" anytime in the near future. Look at how many games got canned or reworked after 911!

The reason games get such a bad rap, like they did after Columbine and still do today, is because games are largely viewed as a childs past time. I'm an adult game and proud of it!

You have the option to choose which games you support with your dollars and that's what's really important here. As soon as 'they' take away our right to freely choose what's appropriate for ourselves then we all have a problem.

Kudos to ManekiNeko for coming out and saying how much a game like Manhunt turns him off but I also appreciate adult themed games from time to time and I really like the way GTA3 and GTA:VC changed the face of gaming. Maybe Manhunt will prove to be just as influential which could lead to some really great stuff post Manhunt

[petewhitley]

I may break down and buy Grand Theft Auto: Vice City eventually, but only if I can find it used.

WTF!?!? You start this topic, and then admit you might buy a GTA series game? So that must be the arbitrary line in the sand huh? Evilmess is right on, this game isn't any different than the games you love and remember from wayback, it's just got better graphics and a more defined plot. You're killing shit, get over it. You've been doing it since Atari. And please, everyone, vote with your dollars, not your protests. Don't buy the game, but don't try to keep me from buying it at EB. Protests to keep stores from selling something in just an insidious form of censorship.

[kai123]

What I think everyone is saying is that like it or not these games are not restricted as to whom buys them (not individuals age wise). I don't think I want to see someone under 18 playing these games. I think that their should be stricter penalties on people that sell this type of game to kids. Parents for the most part are very ignorant on what exactly is in a mature rated game.

I have seen parents at my local EB refuse to buy them a R rated movie. Then buy them GTA vice city. X_x What is the point of the rating system if no one enforces it. I am 20 and I still get carded to see a R rated movie at the theatre.

[1bigmig]

What's wrong with the whole violent game situation is that you have a choice of games where you can beat a person to a bloody, realistic death with your bare hands, but am I asking too much for a game with a tit now and then? Seriously though, Im not saying we need heavily sexual games, but it's funny that society is more accepting of blasting hookers with shotguns rather than showing people feeling good.

Perfect Dark: Casting Couch Cut
Perfect Dark: Perfect Body
Perfect Dark: Mr Blonde's Release

[MarioAllStar2600]

I may break down and buy Grand Theft Auto: Vice City eventually, but only if I can find it used.

WTF!?!? You start this topic, and then admit you might buy a GTA series game? So that must be the arbitrary line in the sand huh? Evilmess is right on, this game isn't any different than the games you love and remember from wayback, it's just got better graphics and a more defined plot. You're killing shit, get over it. You've been doing it since Atari. And please, everyone, vote with your dollars, not your protests. Don't buy the game, but don't try to keep me from buying it at EB. Protests to keep stores from selling something in just an insidious form of censorship.

pretty true. HIPICRIT! Just playing. I think what he is sayign is that he enjoys the game in a mature fashion, but will not buy a new copy and promote what the company does. Correct?

[calthaer]

Let them make it. We live in a free country and a free society, and despite that babble a few notes back, our 'moral compass' is just fine.

My "babbling" had more constructive things to say than your blanket statements.

Our country as a whole has no moral compass. Right or wrong, we are the first society in the history of the world to, as a whole, have no agreed-upon answer for where we should look for determining what is right or wrong. Morality is determined by popular vote. Things are acceptable by enough people voting politicians in to allow them, or by funneling enough dollars into the pockets of people who sell them. There is no other standard, and as such there is no compass - there is no "north pole," if you will. People are not given any solid indication by society at large about how they should decide what is right and wrong (aside from perhaps "if it feels right, it must be right," which is not a solid basis).

Because of that, Rockstar can sell whatever they want and if people will buy it, they are allowed to continue.

Note that I'm just stating this and am not passing judgment on it one way or the other (although if someone wants to PM me and discuss it further that's fine; I just don't want to see this thread go to Battlezone because this whole thing is beside the point). Some people would argue that the fact that we have no metanarrative is a very heroic thing. Anyone who wants more reading on this topic (and on the whole postmodern era in general) is welcome to PM me and I'll send them the basis upon which this observation / opinion is founded.

[1bigmig]

A few other things. I dont support the GTA series, but it shouldnt be banned. Petewhitley said that "You're killing shit, get over it. You've been doing it since Atari." Which in some sense is true. The difference is that in the GTA series you are no longer killing bad guys, you ARE the bad guy. You kill innocents and commit crimes and are rewarded for it. As far as I know there has not been another game like this before. Id like to hope this is a temporary trend, but I know it's not.

[buttasuperb]

GTA games are fine by me. More entertaining than most of the other 3D crap that hits the shelves week after week.

[Brisco]

What the big freakin' deal anyway? All these guys did is take two really good movies, the Running Man and the Warriors, and combine them! I'm surprised it took this long for some company to steal this idea. I can understand why a parent wouldn't want their children to play it, but remember, it's not designed for them.

You know, pretty much nothing that Rockstar games is. Is it just me, or does every game that they release have to do with crime? From Smuggler's Run to GTA to Manhunt to Midnight Club, everything they do is against the law. Spooky!

[Sothy]

If you dont like the game dont buy it.

And hey parents its not a baby siting robot its a PS2 dont buy it for your kids either.

[SoulBlazer]

Well, cal, I did'nt mean to insulting -- sorry if it came off that way. I agree you have every right to what you want to say and I'd also like to keep this thread going (not get into arguments by anyone) and keep it out of Battlezone. So let's just agree to disagree on that point and leave it, kay?

I agree with the others that half the problem is the rating system is not enforced. At least at MY local EB the employees will tell the parents at least if they buy a M rated game what that means.

[Robot]

*ogles Sothy*

*babysits Sothy*

[Sothy]

**head melts**

[devilman]

If you dont like the game dont buy it.

And hey parents its not a baby siting robot its a PS2 dont buy it for your kids either.

That's the problem (certainly over here anyway). The ratings on games aren't enforced well enough so kids will get their hands on them anyway. Rockstar can keep making this kind of game if they like (though personally, I got bored of GTA pretty quickly), but parents need to take some responsibility for the games their kids play.

[zektor]

The ONLY problem I have with these types of games is that to me it seems the only reason they keep coming out is because the game designers saw/see that violence sells and they are milking it. I don't think this company (or any other) should stop making games for the content, but I do think many of them (including Rockstar) need to become a little more creative and try to design other types of games. Replacing creativity for the ease of a quick sale may be working now, but it will get old eventually.

[kai123]

I don't mind the games I have Gta 3 and Gta vice. I just don't think kids should be able to get their hands on it.

[ManekiNeko]

pretty true. HIPICRIT! Just playing. I think what he is sayign is that he enjoys the game in a mature fashion, but will not buy a new copy and promote what the company does. Correct?

Eh, I dunno. I guess what I'm saying is that I enjoy the game as a GAME, not because it has blood and gore and the cocaine and the screaming and GLAVIN!
Maybe I'll just get The Simpsons: Hit and Run instead. It's got the gameplay of GTA, without all the reprehensible content.

JR

P.S. PeteWhitley, denying peoples' right to protest a game is in itself censorship. Now THAT'S hypocrisy. I know I'M going to dissuade anyone I can from buying Manhunt, and the two dozen games it'll likely inspire later.

[Aswald]

It's not just where we are now, but where we're going. That child molester game will come out eventually, for shock value. It must.

If I went back in time to 1983, and described the state of television and such in "the years to come," nobody would've believed me. Gary the Rat, and the new Ren and Stimpy? All of the same sleazy `90's tude and violence? Videogames glorifying murderers and drug dealers?

Well, guess what, folks? We're there. There are no limits, no lines, no nothing. Kids see this, act on it, then we act all surprised- how could little Johnny (or Jenny- thanks, you `60's radical feminists, you %!*&%! idiots!) have done THAT, whatever gave him (her) those ideas?

Videogames have always been violent, but the one important factor was the fact that the violence was abstract. Tempest. Space Invaders. Xevious. Even Front Line. There was always an unrealistic look to it all; it was OBVIOUSLY abstract. There wasn't any way to directly apply it to real life. This was the barrier, or filter, if you will. Shooting mono-colored robots in Berzerk was not the same as killing someone in one of the current games.

[NvrMore]

Ah, "Mature gaming" rolls on.

Someone said that making a new GTA is guaranteed money in the bank and that by going for this new game rockstar are trying to be innovative.. yes and no.

Making a new GTA is guaranteed money in the bank,no doubt, but the level of "maturity" in the game has been seen and done before and thus it wouldn't hold the same value as a "shockingly explicit" mature title.

As good as the gameplay mechanics are in GTA3 and VC, it's the "mature" content which was it's key selling point. Kids and trend gamers buy into the whole "mature gaming" paradox, thus so long as a game is hyped as the most extreme and explicit title (and thus the most "mature") they'll flock to it.

Rockstar made their name on the "mature" content of the GTA games, they don't need the GTA name for people to get excited about another "mature" title, they just know people will assiciate their name with GTA and so by going for something even more extreme and "mature" they're shooting for the easy money.

The creators of the GTA games + random shocking and mature game basis = shitload of easy money regardless of how the game plays.

[Scoots]

I agree with Evilmess.

I do not believe violent games cause people to be violent any more than violent television, movies, music or literature. It's funny to me how violence is seemingly the only concept in a piece or art that is capable of inspiring imitatiive behavior... Reading Romeo and Juliet never inspired me to defy my parents and kill myself!

I also take issue with the idea that these games are "bad for society." What exactly does that mean? Ignoring an issue doesn't resolve it. I certainly wouldn't allow a child of mine to play Vice City, but that is because children do not have the proper experience and context to understand what is going on in the game and why it is unacceptable "in real life." I'd wager just about everyone on this board listens to some rock music, but in the 50s rock and roll was being hailed as the end of civilization. Does anyone still buy that "devil's music" line?

I personally feel that Vice City's themes are fairly reprehensible, but that doesn't alter the fact that it is an absolutely amazing game.

[Aswald]

But you're missing the point here: yes, there has always been violence, but it wasn't constantly glorified, constantly being shoved down our throats, endlessly getting worse, constant exposure, non-stop. There were limits. It's the difference between eating some cake for dessert, and constantly eating it, all of the time: the former is harmless, but the latter will make you horribly fat and probably kill you.

Kids pick up on what they're constantly being exposed to, and then act accordingly. Look what happened in Nazi Germany, which glorified war and the killing of Jews (among other kinds of people); those kids acted accordingly.

[Oobgarm]

Videogames have always been violent, but the one important factor was the fact that the violence was abstract. Tempest. Space Invaders. Xevious. Even Front Line. There was always an unrealistic look to it all; it was OBVIOUSLY abstract. There wasn't any way to directly apply it to real life. This was the barrier, or filter, if you will. Shooting mono-colored robots in Berzerk was not the same as killing someone in one of the current games.

I agree with that. But you know, a lot has to be put upon the parents of children nowadays. Like Sothy said, the TV(or Xbox/PS2 or what have you) is not a robot babysitter. If you don't train your kids about the differences between reality and "pretend", then you're asking for problems, and shouldn't be so surprised when your kids get into deep trouble. And you should own up to your parental inadequacies if something does happen, rather than blame the robot babysitter. As horrible as it is, read the "retro" article in the new EGM. The exorbitant number of references to violence and killing are a product of poor parenting, IMHO.

Much of this all boils down to the way society's values have changed. Society is becoming more and more open, accepting things that would have been considered atrocious or wrong in the past. Foul words are showing up on television, sex is more prevalent, and violence is a common occurence.

I realize that I am sounding like my Mother here... LOL

Look at Japan, for instance. They have ultra-violent films such as Ichi the Killer and Battle Royale, sex permeates the media moreso than in the US, but you don't hear about the same kind of videogame-realated violence that happens here. That's not to say that it doesn't happen, of course.

To touch on the original topic here, I personally have no problems with Rockstar or Manhunt. They're not doing anything scathingly bad, just pushing the boundaries a bit, testing the limits, if you will. That's why the game is rated M. Kids shouldn't be playing it, that's the bottom line. Of course, they'll find a way to, but it's up to the parents to make the call here. What do I want my kids playing?

I remember scoffing at parents who came into my store and only allowed their kids to get a game that's rated "E". Now, I wish more folks were like that. It might take some of the heat off the industry if people were a bit more concious as to what they are buying for their kids.

[Scoots]

But you're missing the point here: yes, there has always been violence, but it wasn't constantly glorified, constantly being shoved down our throats, endlessly getting worse, constant exposure, non-stop. There were limits. It's the difference between eating some cake for dessert, and constantly eating it, all of the time: the former is harmless, but the latter will make you horribly fat and probably kill you.

Kids pick up on what they're constantly being exposed to, and then act accordingly. Look what happened in Nazi Germany, which glorified war and the killing of Jews (among other kinds of people); those kids acted accordingly.

Constantly shoved down our throats? Where? When? Maybe if you allow it to be shoved down your throat it will be, but I personally don't see it (I also rarely watch television, see about 2 new movies a year, and don't listen to much new music). I wonder how many of you decrying the sorry current state of our sociecty are going out every weekend to plunk down 9 bucks for the latest action/horror movie...?

And I do think violence has pretty much always been glorified. Every kid I know played "war" with toy guns, watched GI Joe, etc. Violence "for the right cause" is still violence.

[Ed Oscuro]

Constantly shoved down our throats? Where? When?

Yet you go on to say in the next sentence...


I also rarely watch television, see about 2 new movies a year, and don't listen to much new music.

Your observation that this is due to the popularity of violent games is valid--if they sell they get more advertisement--but let's be clear that the "Nobody I know...I don't see it" argument is invalid.

[Scoots]

You're missing my point, Ed. I'm not saying violence and violent imagery doesn't exist, I'm just saying you don't need to be inundated by it unless you allow yourself to be. If you want to enjoy that kind of thing, then you will. If you don't, then you just don't go see Scream 7 or Terminator 3 or buy the newest 50 Cent album. Either way, it doesn't make you any better or worse than anyone else, it just shows you have a different sense of what is entertainment.

[Jorpho]

I have seen parents at my local EB refuse to buy them a R rated movie. Then buy them GTA vice city. X_x

That really isn't right... Perhaps there is something to be said for marketing a system only towards kids. But that wouldn't make money and therefore such a venture would never be undertaken. The unfortunate thing is that games with titles like "The Earth Dies Screaming" have been published for years and been perfectly acceptable for children.

I was about to say that maybe they should emphasize these game ratings more in the commercials, but they're already doing that, aren't they? Or maybe the ESRB should make their rating labels look a little more serious instead of giving them that quirky tilted look.

[SoulBlazer]

Is'nt part of the problem that we're debating here not so much violence in society or even video games, but parents just not....well, being parents? They don't get involved in their kids school life, in what they wear, what they watch, what they play, what they say. I know parents are busy and the need to bring in two incomes....but there's always time.

I grew up in the late 80's and early 90's, when the most violent games were Doom and Mortal Kombat. Yes, I played them, and my folks knew it. They often checked up on what I was doing or playing. If there were games like GTA out back then, no way in hell would my folks have left them play them till I was at least 15, maybe not even 16.

There's nothing wrong with pushing the line, but if parents don't take responsbility for mature games, SOMEONE has to -- and that leaves the stores and the government.

[Arcade Antics]

I have seen parents at my local EB refuse to buy them a R rated movie. Then buy them GTA vice city. X_x What is the point of the rating system if no one enforces it.

The STORES generally enforce the ratings on the games. PARENTS can buy their kid whatever the hell games they want.

The point of the ratings system is to tell Soccer-Mom/Dad that the game contains content that the PARENTS may wish to restrict their children from watching/playing. Without it, most parents will buy a game called "Faster Processor, Kill, Kill!" and immediately turn around and sue the store, the clerk, the state, the game company, the game designers, the families of all involved, ad infinitum to infinity and beyond because they couldn't be bothered to notice the picture of the axe wielding maniac holding the severed head on the cover of the game.

"Gavin, don't you already have this game?"

"No, Mom, you idiot! I have Bloodstorm, and Bone Squad, and Bloodstorm II, stupid!"

"Oh, I'm sorry, honey. We'll take a Bonestorm."

"Get two! I'm not sharing with Caitlin!"

[Aswald]

But you're missing the point here: yes, there has always been violence, but it wasn't constantly glorified, constantly being shoved down our throats, endlessly getting worse, constant exposure, non-stop. There were limits. It's the difference between eating some cake for dessert, and constantly eating it, all of the time: the former is harmless, but the latter will make you horribly fat and probably kill you.

Kids pick up on what they're constantly being exposed to, and then act accordingly. Look what happened in Nazi Germany, which glorified war and the killing of Jews (among other kinds of people); those kids acted accordingly.

Constantly shoved down our throats? Where? When? Maybe if you allow it to be shoved down your throat it will be, but I personally don't see it (I also rarely watch television, see about 2 new movies a year, and don't listen to much new music). I wonder how many of you decrying the sorry current state of our sociecty are going out every weekend to plunk down 9 bucks for the latest action/horror movie...?

And I do think violence has pretty much always been glorified. Every kid I know played "war" with toy guns, watched GI Joe, etc. Violence "for the right cause" is still violence.


About the only way to avoid it is to live like a hermit. Obviously, this is not an option.

I just get pretty mad at the purveyers of this garbage who are obviously out to make a buck no matter what. They are little better than those miserable drug dealers of the 1980s who made life such hell for so many.

The problem, again, is that once you've lowered the bar, the only way to go is to lower the bar even further. It's no longer "hip" in, say, an all-text game to say:

* But before any of your adventurers can react, even as Sarah the ShadowDancer swiftly draws a throwing dagger, the leader of the Dark Horde troop you stumbled upon raises his Sceptre of Power, which glows a hellish red, and then lashes out with crimson fire, piercing the mystic shield your Mage Arcalon conjured, and causing all of your Greater Gnolls, even the mighty Fighter Torai, to collapse, unable to speak or move. The Furies move in to finish off the trio, but are ordered back by their master.
* The leader, a Necromancer who could call directly upon the powers of the ancient, evil Elder Gods, then orders his troop of ogres and orcs to disarm and bind your adventurers. "But do not damage the female Gnoll," he says, "she will make an excellent sacrifice when the Dark Moon rises."


No, more and more, it would just HAVE to read something like this:

* But before any of your bloodied adventurers can react, even as Sarah Throatslitter, with a snarl, draws an exploding razor-shuriken, the leader of the ChildKiller Cult raises his obscenely-carved Scepter of Power, glowing a hellish red from the strength it gained from the tortuous death of the village childrens' screams of agony, which lashes out, blasting aside the mystic voodoo shield Arcalon the Mage had conjured, throwing back all three adventurers into a blood-stained heap. The Furies eagerly lap up the small pools of blood, and look up, red foam dripping from their mouths, blazing, narrowed eyes eager for more, but their master orders them away.
*The leader, Zadaxz Flesheater, a Necromancer capable of calling upon the unholy powers of the sadistic and murderous Elder Gods, feared for their demand for the most depraved rape-rituals, orders his horde of slavering ogres and orcs, eager for more blood and power, to strip down the helpless adventurers. "But not the female," he says, moving toward the helpless Sarah, "She will make an excellent sacrifice to the Gods- but first, she is mine!"

(*Explicit description follows.)

Just when did we become so damn jaded that what goes on today is acceptable? I'm no prude, but there's got to be limits; but there aren't any, and it's only getting worse.
Maybe this is why so many games don't have replay value. How often do I see many of these "hot new games" in the second-hand stores a short time later? Unlike Pac-Man, Tetris, Joust, and others, how many will be fondly remembered years from now? It's just a quick-buck gimmick, and as the obsession with this and "focus groups" grow, innovative and good games will be crowded out.

[petewhitley]

P.S. PeteWhitley, denying peoples' right to protest a game is in itself censorship. Now THAT'S hypocrisy. I know I'M going to dissuade anyone I can from buying Manhunt, and the two dozen games it'll likely inspire later.

Who denied your right to protest? I didn't, and I'm looking around for someone who did.... Hmm, can't find 'em. I asked you to vote with your dollar and lay off the sellers, that's all. Take my advice or don't. I don't care, I'm buying Manhunt, and I've got a pretty good feeling EB is gonna stock it. As long as you don't go out and buy GTA new or used, I don't think we've got any hypocrits here.

[Chris++]

You're right; we can all vote with our dollars. However, if the very demand for this sort of thing -- the underlying problem is that tons of people (men) buy the stuff -- is never questioned, then we're at the mercy of companies who tell us what to like (like the way music's become for teenagers). I got more e-mails about the following article than any other I've written, and most of them were negative, so I'm glad others have gotten the same bad tastes in their mouths from overtly disturbing games. I seriously thought I was the only one.

http://www.geocities.com/flynnwins/ocgs/grandtheft.htm




.

[Scoots]

You're right; we can all vote with our dollars. However, if the very demand for this sort of thing -- the underlying problem is that tons of people (men) buy the stuff -- is never questioned, then we're at the mercy of companies who tell us what to like (like the way music's become for teenagers).
.

Are you serious? :eek 2: Since when are we "at the mercy" of ANYONE to tell us what to like? They can try to tell you all they want, it doesn't change the fact that the choice is yours. Video games are not your enemy--fear and ignorance is what "society" should be afraid of. How can any rational adult think that playing a video game can compel them to act in a certain way? That's completely insane.

[Chris++]

I agree. I think we should look at the underlying reasons for this stuff being so popular, rather than banning the symptom. I'm not in favor of any legislation against violent games, for instance; it's like going after graffiti instead of gangsters.

Younger gamers DO try to adhere to what's popular or trendy -- they're used to being told what to like, and many of them obviously conform -- and all I'm saying is that just to argue against further disturbing games doesn't make a person pro-censorship.

[evilmess]

For those of you who are concerned about children playing games like GTA and other "M" rated games you can do something about that.

Ask your local game retailer if they adhere to the rating system when selling games minors. It's not your responsibilty to police other peoples kids but this a simple way to let retailers know that this is an important issue that you feel strongly about.

On the same subject you may find this recently released study interesting.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2003/10/shopper.htm

On the topic of GTA, Manhunt and Rockstar.
I haven't played GTA:VC in about 6 months and I'm approx. half way thru the game but here's my impression of the game. If you play the game story as intended then yes it's violent but it has a point. The thing that makes GTA:VC so great is that you can, at anytime, do other things in the game, including the mini games which are quite fun.

You can choose to whack old ladies and steal their cash but it's not an integral part of the main story. Personally I enjoyed the pizza delivery mini game and the RC air plane race to name a couple. And yeah I've whacked a couple innocents and cops for the hell of it but I'd much rather explore the city and find all those killer jumps.

The point is that GTA:VC is a completely customizable gaming experience which is very rare these days. You can choose (outside of the main story) to play it like an evil bastard or not. Should the developers have left out this level of freedom? HELL NO!

In regards to Manhunt, from what I've read it looks like a very violent and twisted game. Sure I'm intrigued to see what it's all about but I can honestly say that it's not in my top 10 most wanted games. If the reviews paint Manhunt as a "must have" title like they did with GTA:VC then I'll probably buy it.

Which brings us back to.. "if you don't like it don't buy it."
But please don't deny me the option to purchase games like Manhunt or Rockstar and others the freedom of explore and create these games.

[Ed Oscuro]

You're missing my point, Ed. I'm not saying violence and violent imagery doesn't exist, I'm just saying you don't need to be inundated by it unless you allow yourself to be. If you want to enjoy that kind of thing, then you will. If you don't, then you just don't go see Scream 7 or Terminator 3 or buy the newest 50 Cent album. Either way, it doesn't make you any better or worse than anyone else, it just shows you have a different sense of what is entertainment.

I'm not missing your point.

Your statement was logically inconsistent. To add more to the insult, you just committed two more errors "refuting" my point, and I don't think you're aware of how naive you sound as a result:

a.) Inundation (one N at the beginning) is not a state of "enjoying" something nor is it necessarily related, as you seem to imply. Being "inundated" is a state you cannot control: its use in reference to heavy rainfalls that wash out bridges or flood villages is a good example of its correct usage.

By the same token, then:

b.) There is no link between enjoying something (or not) and being able to escape advertisement for it (which by itself is becoming more nearly impossible these days). This feeds right back into part a.) as well, of course.

I find it hard to believe that you are completely immune to being inundated with advertisement. Going to some of my favorite websites -- GameSpy, Forumplanet, and news sites -- you simply cannot ignore the amount of advertisement that's around anymore. I don't watch television or movies much at all myself (maybe 3 movies a year?) yet I find it that these ads work their way into my field of vision anyways.

Why is it important that you don't see them, either? The person missing the point would be yourself. Lots of kids today would consider a game like Super Mario 64, for example, to be lots of fun, but consider how much press time these games get versus stigma ("kiddie games"). As a result violent games sell more, even to kids who could be having more fun (not to mention being less frustrated) in other games. Unfortunately, it seems that non-FPS online games seem to either be too expensive (MMOGs) or underpublicized (not to mention underbudgeted, i.e. GunBound).

I don't particularly mind the fact that I can enjoy a game of Counter-Strike (or not, as it sometimes works out) and it would seem to me that the game (and others like it) help condition one's reflexes and increase spatial awareness. That said, there's less room for taking morally repugnant actions than in a title like GTA Vice City, and I don't feel that being able to "try out" those actions has the calming or teaching effect that some people seem to believe it does.

[ManekiNeko]

Who denied your right to protest? I didn't, and I'm looking around for someone who did.... Hmm, can't find 'em.

No, but you DID complain that protesting is just "an insidious form of censorship." You're wrong... it's an example of free speech and the right to assemble.



I asked you to vote with your dollar and lay off the sellers, that's all.


Why not? They're part of the problem. They deserve part of the blame. If the stores prevented kids from purchasing these games, they should get the benefit of the doubt, but what game store actually DOES this?


Take my advice or don't. I don't care, I'm buying Manhunt, and I've got a pretty good feeling EB is gonna stock it.


All rightie then. I can find better ways to spend my time than play a game like this, but it's your life.


As long as you don't go out and buy GTA new or used, I don't think we've got any hypocrits here.

Wow, and I thought ChristianScott was good at getting on my nerves...
Look, bub, there's a pretty wide gap between the content in Grand Theft Auto III and Manhunt. In GTAIII, you CAN committ heinous crimes against mankind. In Manhunt, you MUST.

I'm going to try to keep this conversation civil, but my life has recently gotten pretty stressful, and my temper's even shorter than usual. I'd strongly caution you to stay off my toes.

JR

[Arcade Antics]

Why not? They're part of the problem. They deserve part of the blame. If the stores prevented kids from purchasing these games, they should get the benefit of the doubt, but what game store actually DOES this?

I have yet to see a game store, or any store for that matter, sell an "M" rated game to a kid. (FWIW, I HAVE seen plenty of underage kids get into R rated movies). I definitely give the stores the benefit of the doubt here, and I think it's unfair to the retailers to assume that they don't adhere to the policy.

[Ed Oscuro]

I have yet to see a game store, or any store for that matter, sell an "M" rated game to a kid. (FWIW, I HAVE seen plenty of underage kids get into R rated movies). I definitely give the stores the benefit of the doubt here, and I think it's unfair to the retailers to assume that they don't adhere to the policy.

I would agree. The only instance I've heard of was at a local store where my brother got sold a copy of Area 51 when he wasn't old enough (though that was before the ban on selling M games to kids, I believe).

Neko is right about free speech, though. If people continue to [b]STUPIDLY[/ib] insist that having a debate about moral issues is bad, then we might as well start eating babies. It's only logical that we forego all debate and just accept the radical suggestions out there without any discussion if his "repressive" speech isn't allowed.

[petewhitley]

Who denied your right to protest? I didn't, and I'm looking around for someone who did.... Hmm, can't find 'em.

No, but you DID complain that protesting is just "an insidious form of censorship." You're wrong... it's an example of free speech and the right to assemble.


Protests to keep stores from selling something in just an insidious form of censorship.

You misquoted me (more specifically, took my words out of context). There's your proof. Protesting is fine/dandy/great/etc... but to protest the store is to undermine the process of consumer choice, and disallows my voice (through my purchasing power) to be heard. Protest Rockstar, not EB.


Wow, and I thought ChristianScott was good at getting on my nerves...
Look, bub, there's a pretty wide gap between the content in Grand Theft Auto III and Manhunt. In GTAIII, you CAN committ heinous crimes against mankind. In Manhunt, you MUST.

I'm going to try to keep this conversation civil, but my life has recently gotten pretty stressful, and my temper's even shorter than usual. I'd strongly caution you to stay off my toes.

JR

Obviously, and to your credit, you haven't played much of GTA III. In the first hour you are required to murder your fellow mankind, in order to progress in the game.

Consider your toes offically stepped-on, "bub."

[Stamp Mcfury]

A few other things. I dont support the GTA series, but it shouldnt be banned. Petewhitley said that "You're killing shit, get over it. You've been doing it since Atari." Which in some sense is true. The difference is that in the GTA series you are no longer killing bad guys, you ARE the bad guy. You kill innocents and commit crimes and are rewarded for it. As far as I know there has not been another game like this before. Id like to hope this is a temporary trend, but I know it's not.

I can name a few games Fallout, Postal, the original GTA. They were just killing people for reward is the big just the graphics.

Smash TV and Mortal Kombat were out at the same time, You sure as hell kill alot more people in smash TV. The story was you did it to get rewards like VCR's Vacations, and Toster Ovens. But MK had the better graphics. You all know what one got all the bad publicity for Violence.

Fallout and Fallout 2 let you do things like slice kids up with knives, Rockstar kept kids out of the game so that wont happen! You don't hear people yelling to ban the fallout games?

[ManekiNeko]

Obviously, and to your credit, you haven't played much of GTA III. In the first hour you are required to murder your fellow mankind, in order to progress in the game.

Consider your toes offically stepped-on, "bub."

You're not worth it.

JR

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

For what it's worth, I agree with what Jess is saying. And you won't find me buying or playing GTA, new or used.

Or anything else Rockstar churns out, for that matter. They remind me a lot of Nickelodeon's approach to The Ren & Stimpy Show after firing John Kricfalusi (and Kricfalusi's own approach with the rehashed R&S on TNN/Spike TV): they focus too much on the factor that gained it notoriety in the first place, and then proceed to amplify that element to the exclusion of all else.

Marketing gone mad. And this is coming from someone who works in marketing.

[Berserker]

alls i want to know is

is there going to be a pre-order date on granny-sodomizer?

thanks.

[zmweasel]

N/A

[zmweasel]

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[zmweasel]

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[zmweasel]

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[SoulBlazer]

I've never heard of this Godwin's Law. What is it?

[zmweasel]

N/A

[odysseyzine]

I think Manhunt is the first game that I wouldn't feel comfortable playing. Although I can't say that GTA3 was really a life-affirming experience either. I just don't get into this stuff. It's too bad that game companies want to spend time thinking of gruesome canned animations instead of engaging game play.

I think I'm going to go play Ice Climber or Balloon Fight. Now those are wholesome games you can hang your hat on! LOL

[Li Wang]

When I first read this thread, I thought they were pushing things a bit, but after reading a couple previews I don't see how this is really much worse than GTA. "Snuff film director" isn't really a good way of describing this "director" character, if what the previews say is true, though technically correct. The theme of this game seems very similar to that of Smash TV. Also, the people you're pitted against appear to be fellow death row inmates, gang members, etc. How are any of the themes really different than those that can be seen in Battle Royale or Hitman 2? Though I personally am not interested in the game I don't see how it's really a huge step up in objectionable content. Although the violence is supposed to be more brutal, the actions you can actually take in the game actually sound less extreme than Grand Theft Auto, Postal, etc.