Do you consider the TG-16 to be part of 16 bit or 8 bit era? [Archive]

Anthony1

10-23-2003, 01:45 AM

When you look back on the TurboGrafx-16, do you consider it to be part of the 16 bit era, or the 8 bit era?

At first glance, I'm sure that most people would quickly determine that they would put it in the 16 bit era, but if you look at it deeper, you might reconsider that. First of all, remember that although the Turbo came out in 1989 here in the U.S., the PC Engine came out in 1987 in Japan. 1987 was definitely part of the 8 bit era. And although the Turbo is called the TurboGrafx-16, we all know that it is basically a system with dual 8 bit processors.

Plus if you compare the game library to the Genesis and the SNES, the Turbo doesn't really measure up to those two, from a technological standpoint. To me, Turbo games are more like NES games with lots of color and larger sprites. Like a 8 bit NES system on steroids. Look at the controller too. It has the classic two button controller design just like the NES.

Now this is not to disrespect the Turbo in any way or form. I'm a huge fan of the Turbo. But it's just that I've been looking back at the Turbo, and to me it seems like the Turbo is much closer to the NES, then the Genny and SNES. In the very early days of the Genny, the turbo could compare to the Genny, but once developers got a handle on the Genny, the quality dramatically improved.

Just something to ponder. I haven't decided if I'm going to file the Turbo under 8 bit in my mind or not, but it's something that I'm considering.

digitalpress

10-23-2003, 07:13 AM

It's definitely from the 16-bit era in the USA, as it was released just months before the Sega Genesis.

And while the system has dual 8-bit CPU processors, it does have a 16-bit graphics processor.

So, like the Jaguar and the Neo-Geo, the console kinda falls "inbetween" in terms of traditional "bit" thinking. It hardly matters in this day and age - as it turns out, systems like these were way ahead of their time. Who thinks in terms of "bit processing" anymore? Food for thought.

Fuel Injected

10-23-2003, 08:33 AM

Im going to say 8bit era for several reasons...

#1 Being released in '89 means it was right at the end of the era, but still before the Major 16bit systems came out.

#2 Its in the Digital Press collector guide #7 as an 8bit system

#3 8bit computing and 8 bit graphic processing does not mean its a 16 bit system in the same sence the true 16 bit systems were

#4 One could argue the Turbo Duo, released in 1992 (or 91 i cant remember) was released during 16 bit era, but not the original

Overall, I agree with this statement:

To me, Turbo games are more like NES games with lots of color and larger sprites. Like a 8 bit NES system on steroids. Look at the controller too. It has the classic two button controller design just like the NES.

jaydubnb

10-23-2003, 08:56 AM

Technically, 8 bit. But personally I find it to be a half breed machine, and I mean that in a good way. Some of the earlier stuff (or some of the mor badly programmed games, heh) deinitely have the 8 bit look, sound, and feel. However, over the course of its lifespan, games certain rivaled the 16 bitters. Hell, Sapphire (CD game) almost pulled off a 32 bit look. I wouldve loved to see what Capcom , Konami, and other big names wouldve done with the hardware. I've always felt that the machine couldve done even greater things.

Ed Oscuro

10-23-2003, 09:17 AM

I wouldve loved to see what Capcom , Konami, and other big names wouldve done with the hardware. I've always felt that the machine couldve done even greater things.

LOL

Well can I name a few games for you?

Street Fighter 2 Championship Edition: 20MBit cart, largest HuCard for the system
Daimakaimura: In terms of detail, beats the pants off the Sega Mega Drive version of the game, though this is a SuperGrafx title only

Dracula X: Chi no Rondo for your Konami title

Other names? There were a ton of great arcade ports for the system, and while I like Atlik's Shinobi port a good deal, the best of them is Space Harrier. Positively the best old-school port of that game. While Sega didn't actively develop for the system, you can see that they allowed more than a couple of their franchises on the system.

chadtower

10-23-2003, 09:20 AM

Definitely 16 bit. First machine to have a CD attachment!

christianscott27

10-23-2003, 09:27 AM

to me

HU card games- 8 bit in quality and feel
DUO- 16 bit in quality and feel

maxlords

10-23-2003, 09:29 AM

Well, if you take into account the CD system, I'd say it falls more under the 16 bit category. I always find the TG16 to look better overall than most all the 8 bit stuff out there....it doesn't have that NES-style look to the games which I invariably associate with 8 bit. But, I'm not going by tech specs, just by gut. And it has games on the CD system that blow pretty much any other 16 bit system out of the water.

jaydubnb

10-23-2003, 09:33 AM

I wouldve loved to see what Capcom , Konami, and other big names wouldve done with the hardware. I've always felt that the machine couldve done even greater things.

LOL

Well can I name a few games for you?

Street Fighter 2 Championship Edition: 20MBit cart, largest HuCard for the system
Daimakaimura: In terms of detail, beats the pants off the Sega Mega Drive version of the game, though this is a SuperGrafx title only

Dracula X: Chi no Rondo for your Konami title

I have those games except the Ghosts n Goblins title. :) I simply wished that they'd done more! Konami only seemed willing to offer their space shooties. I wouldve loved to see a port of Contra or any other action game :-P Same with Capcom. They tossed NEC some pretty damned good bones but we can ignore Tiger Road, heh :D

SaturnRox

10-23-2003, 09:33 AM

My 2 cents: 16 bit

omnedon

10-23-2003, 09:42 AM

Ed Oscuro

10-23-2003, 12:28 PM

I have those games except the Ghosts n Goblins title. :) I simply wished that they'd done more! Konami only seemed willing to offer their space shooties. I wouldve loved to see a port of Contra or any other action game :-P Same with Capcom. They tossed NEC some pretty damned good bones but we can ignore Tiger Road, heh :D

Oh, so you weren't going daft after all! Heh, I wholly agree with you now. Tiger Road, hmm...wasn't that the G'nG-esque game with the muscle d00d who's always clinging to poles? Yeah, that's not one of my favorites, really.

jaydubnb

10-23-2003, 01:50 PM

Oh, so you weren't going daft after all! Heh, I wholly agree with you now. Tiger Road, hmm...wasn't that the G'nG-esque game with the muscle d00d who's always clinging to poles? Yeah, that's not one of my favorites, really.

Tiger Road starred a bald, Asian warrior who tossed axes and other weapons at baddies. Pretty craptacular. But this game that you're talking about.....? It doesnt ring a bell...

Ed Oscuro

10-23-2003, 01:53 PM

xolik

10-23-2003, 02:07 PM

Another vote for 16-bit.

Raccoon Lad

10-23-2003, 02:26 PM

Boy, back in the day, that duel 8-bit processors thing really hurt the system.

PPL would be like "OMG! did you hear, the TG-16 isn't really 16-bit!!!!"

Of course back then when all previous systems had been 8-bit, and neighbor hood kids would swear up'n down the atari 2600 was 4-bit, being TRUE 16-bit REALLY mattered.

and just for the sake of graphics, and timeline, I'll go with 16-bit.

digitalpress

10-23-2003, 02:26 PM

Hmm, it was a Capcom game and is emulated in MAME.

/checks

I now know why I got the two titles confused. The one I'm thinking of is Black Tiger (or Black Dragon) and is a wholly different game as far as I know; this Tiger Road shows up as well but isn't a clone of the other game.

Yeah, sounds like you're referring to Black Tiger (which I like a whole lot, actually - it's a Rastan-style game) whereas Tiger Road is a tedious side-scrolling platforming beat'em up. FWIW Tiger Road was an arcade game before it was a TG-16 HuCard.

Easy enough to see how you'd get them confused, too, since they're both Romstar coin-ops from 1987.

Ed Oscuro

10-23-2003, 02:30 PM

I know I'm referring to Black Tiger, 100% even though I haven't played it recently. MAME lists both as Capcom manufactured--what's this Romstar? I've heard of it before but what's that about?

Black Tiger does have some more than passing Makaimura references; take the Red Arremers found all over Black Tiger, and the similar armor system for the character.

digitalpress

10-23-2003, 02:45 PM

I have the arcade marquees for both games and they both say "ROMSTAR". I think Capcom and Romstar were in cahoots much like Sega/Gremlin, Williams/Midway or even Flying Edge/Acclaim

Ed Oscuro

10-23-2003, 02:47 PM

Ah, that makes sense. The stuff in Black Tiger may be Romstar employees paying homage to the G'nG series; perhaps Black Tiger was supposed to be their take on the series.

Raccoon Lad

10-23-2003, 02:47 PM

Wasn't Romstar afilliated with SNK?

Ed Oscuro

10-23-2003, 02:49 PM

If it's any help, I don't see any listings for Romstar manufactured games in MAME's list and I don't see any SNK/Romstar collaboration entries. Could be an oversight, though.

jaydubnb

10-23-2003, 03:17 PM

Wasn't Romstar afilliated with SNK?

I was thinking the same thing. I believe Romstar had something to do with the NES versions of either Baseball Stars or Baseball Stars 2. I sure I've seen the name attached to those games somehow...

Ed Oscuro

10-23-2003, 03:20 PM

I figured it'd be the console releases, but I thought I'd throw out that arcade info anyhow.

digitalpress

10-23-2003, 03:53 PM

Well here's what I got. Make of it what you will.

http://images.webmagic.com/klov.com/images/B/mBlack_Tiger.jpg
http://images.webmagic.com/klov.com/images/T/mTiger_Road.jpg

Anthony1

10-23-2003, 08:21 PM

16 bit

It often looks so much more vibrant than the genny. If I'm not mistaken, the TG16 has double the colours on screen at once the genny does. If you want to call it an 8 bitter, it's the king of the 8 bitters!!

It's definitely "KING OF THE 8 BITTERS", but it is still an 8 bit system. A turbo charged 8 bit system, but a 8 bit system none the less. Play a game like China Warrior, and tell me this isn't a 8 bit machine. But it is definitely a very advanced 8 bit machine. And one that could have certain games that would even rival the 16 bit systems games, but let's get real here. The system was released in Japan in 1987. Also, I was looking at a old EGM Buyers guide, and it had lots of Turbo games and NES games in it, and it was hard to tell the difference between the two games in the mag. They looked somewhat similar.

ubersaurus

10-23-2003, 08:30 PM

The intellivision was released in what? 79? 80? It's 16-bit, but it doesn't look much better then the 8-bit 2600.

You can't use the year released approach here. And visually, I've seen games on consoles that looked like they woulda fit in on an older generation.

I say, that if the graphics processor is 16 bit, then the damn thing is 16-bit.

1bigmig

10-23-2003, 08:32 PM

16 bit and I have cast my vote accordingly.

Duncan

10-23-2003, 11:11 PM

I voted 16-bit, if only because it really kinda kicked off the whole "bit-count" race to start with. If NEC hadn't made the point of calling the PC Engine a 16-bit system, neither Sega nor Nintendo would have made the effort either. (Note how prominent the "16 BIT" letters are on the front of the original Genesis.)

And once the Saturn, PlayStation and Jaguar arrived with their multi-processor setups, the whole issue got kinda fuzzy anyway.

But classifying things is always a tough call -- what do you do about the ones that won't fit in a certain hole? I think it's easier to just view the whole thing as a progression over time. Let's say that any console over 10 years old in design and no longer available new qualifies as a "classic" system, and leave it at that.

Duncan :D

Ed Oscuro

10-24-2003, 12:07 AM

I say, that if the graphics processor is 16 bit, then the damn thing is 16-bit.

Good, it's not just me then :D

I can't believe the DreamCast has an 128 bit main processor, not at all. I think that's 128 bits for the DC's GPU but nobody's seen fit to prove me right or wrong. Still, I think going by the GPU makes as much sense as anything.

1bigmig

10-24-2003, 12:13 AM

I say, that if the graphics processor is 16 bit, then the damn thing is 16-bit.

Good, it's not just me then :D

Still, I think going by the GPU makes as much sense as anything.

This was a lot of the reason why I went with 16 bit. In terms of classic consoles, the graphics really defined generations of systems moreso than processing speed. And with the TG16, I feel the graphics come much closer to the SNES and Gen than the SMS or NES. Of course, if you look at late SMS or early Gen then the line is blurred some about where the TG16 fits, but overall I think it is better classified as a 16 bit system.

Ed Oscuro

10-24-2003, 12:21 AM

It's still much the case that the GPU is very important. When I think of the SNES and Genesis, in fact, I think of them in terms of their main processor (though to be fair I don't know much about their graphics systems) instead of some graphical subsystem. I think this classification makes more sense today than it used to.

Lost Monkey

10-24-2003, 01:35 AM

Play a game like China Warrior, and tell me this isn't a 8 bit machine.

You could make an exact port of China Warrior on the XBOX, PS2 or GCN, but that wouldn't make them "8 bit" - the game itself is not indicative of the potential of the hardware. The point is, that in 1987 when the first games for the PCE were being produced, they suited the 8 bit generation of games, although they were not really taxing the hardware. As games evolved, the games for the PCE evolved into the 16 bit generation as well, as least graphically.

Essentially, the PCE/Turbo line had an 8 bit heart, but was capable of producing 16 bit graphics. It is almost unique in console history in its ability to "overperform", whereas many other consoles have seemed to "underperform".

Aswald

10-24-2003, 12:29 PM

Pesky time limit...

Aswald

10-24-2003, 12:42 PM

It was true that the Turbo-Grafx 16 was an 8-bit machine with a 16-bit graphics chip...

But, I can't help but put it into the 16-bit category. Its games seemed to be at least the equal of the Genesis, and it really came out at about the right time, give or take a few years. In a way, it was the Atari 7800 of the fifth generation, only not as pathetic (NO TRAMIELS!).

Can a system be judged by the games, as far as "generation" goes? Technically, the ColecoVision (third generation) was very nearly the equal of the Atari 7800 (fourth)- in fact, it even approached the NES.

Ed Oscuro

10-24-2003, 01:14 PM

Play a game like China Warrior, and tell me this isn't a 8 bit machine.

You could make an exact port of China Warrior on the XBOX, PS2 or GCN, but that wouldn't make them "8 bit" - the game itself is not indicative of the potential of the hardware.

Essentially, the PCE/Turbo line had an 8 bit heart, but was capable of producing 16 bit graphics. It is almost unique in console history in its ability to "overperform", whereas many other consoles have seemed to "underperform".

Right on! The PC-Engine indeed doesn't like being classified. I personally feel that using the term "16 bit" to describe it is far too simplistic and not truly correct.

There's no easy way to classify one of these game consoles.

I will also say that the current gen consoles (far as I know) all have 32-bit or perhaps 64-bit main processors yet they are judged in terms of "bits" by their graphics processor. What of the DreamCast? I doubt its main processor was 128 bits, and again I'm going to say this in the hopes that somebody can prove me right or wrong.

1bigmig

10-24-2003, 01:38 PM

What of the DreamCast? I doubt its main processor was 128 bits, and again I'm going to say this in the hopes that somebody can prove me right or wrong.

Dont know if this is what you are looking for but its the Dreamcast info off of Sega's site:

The first console to venture into online gameplay, Dreamcast has a built-in 56K modem. With 128-bit processing, 3D audio capabilities and stellar 3D graphics, your gameplay experience just got better.

When you purchase Dreamcast, you receive the Dreamcast console, 56K modem, one standard Dreamcast Controller, Stereo A/V cable, power cable, ten-meter phone cable, Internet browser CD-ROM, game sampler CD-ROM, and instruction manual

Peak graphics performance of over three million polygons per second provided by the PowerVR 2DC graphics engine for the fastest, most sophisticated 3D graphics ever seen on a videogame console.
128-bit 3D processing power provides amazing lighting and other special effects.
Built-in 56kbps modem for the ultimate in multiplayer online gaming.
16 megabytes of memory for huge, complex game worlds.
64-voice CD-quality audio.
Four built-in controller ports for easy multi-player action.
Built-in high-speed expansion ports.

Ed Oscuro

10-24-2003, 01:41 PM

That's just a sound bite, unfortunately. I want to know whether the main processor is 128 bit or if that's just the GPU (which I think is the case).

1bigmig

10-24-2003, 01:52 PM

That's just a sound bite, unfortunately. I want to know whether the main processor is 128 bit or if that's just the GPU (which I think is the case).

No, the main processor is 128 bit. It is a "Hitachi SH4 128bit CPU running at 200 mHz" I checked around and found multiple sources saying the Hitachi SH4 was a 128 bit CPU. Of course, they could all have the wrong information, but this is definately the processor in the DC.

Ed Oscuro

10-24-2003, 02:00 PM

I've seen that before. Do they also list what the Graphics Processor is? The graphics on the DC seem in line with what a 128 bit GPU would produce.

1bigmig

10-24-2003, 02:05 PM

I've seen that before. Do they also list what the Graphics Processor is? The graphics on the DC seem in line with what a 128 bit GPU would produce.

The graphics processor is NEC/VideoLogic CLX1, but I didnt see anything about bits when I was looking around. Both of these I got from my Next Gen DC launch issue and searches confirmed these are the right processors at least. The NG issue doesnt have any bit info in it either.

Ed Oscuro

10-24-2003, 02:12 PM

Sweetness, answers! I dunno why, but it's hard to find that information anywhere.

jaydubnb

10-24-2003, 02:30 PM

Essentially, the PCE/Turbo line had an 8 bit heart, but was capable of producing 16 bit graphics. It is almost unique in console history in its ability to "overperform", whereas many other consoles have seemed to "underperform".

So true!

Like my ex-girlfriend used to tell me, its not what you have, its what you can do with it!

*looks around*