Jaguar or 32X, which is more pathetic? [Archive]

Anthony1

11-08-2003, 02:01 AM

I'm sorry, but I have to admit to myself that both the Atari Jaguar and Sega 32X, were both just about the crappiest systems ever released to an unsuspecting public!

I bought both of these sorry suckers they day they were released. Damn, what a waste of money.

However, I've gotten a Jag again, and I know I will stumble onto a 32X soon, so I can't dog them to much, cause I still want to try out different games on them, but the truth of the matter is that both systems were a huge failure in their time. More so the 32X to me, than the Jag. The Jag did have AVP, and a great version of DOOM, plus Power Drive Rally, and although everybody hates it, Cybermorph.

Call me crazy but I actually like Cybermorph.

As for the 32X, there really isn't a game for it, that I really really like. It's more like which games will I actually tolerate.

The sad thing too, is that these systems where supposed to be 64 bit and 32 bit, what a joke! Maybe technically speaking they could call themselves 32 bit and 64 bit, but the reality is that they were both more like 16 bit machines with FX and VSP chips pre-built into them. The 32X was supposed to finally give Sega the colors on the screen that they were so envious of the SNES of. But none of the games are really bursting with color to me. It still looks very Genny like to me.

And the Jag being 64 bit? Please. Games like Bubsy and Zool and Troy Aikmen and Brutal Sports Football. All these games look 100 percent 16 bit to me!

Anyways go ahead and vote on which is best. Also if you could list your favorite game for each.

My favorite for the Jag is Doom. I thought it was a damn good version of DOOM. It came out quite some time prior to the PSone version. Of course in retrospect the PSone version is the one to get if you are getting one, but back in the day when Doom first came out on the Jag, it was pretty amazing!

As for the 32X, I'm going to have to roll with MetalHead. MetalHead at least seemed like it was somewhat of a next-generation game at the time. It seemed kinda 32 bit. And that was big, as far as 32X games were concerned.

Kid Fenris

11-08-2003, 02:26 AM

The Jaguar fans will soon burn this thread to the ground and salt the earth upon which it stood, but before that happens, I'm going to say that the 32X is the worse of the two. In terms of A-list titles, the 32X had Chaotix and not much else. The Jaguar, at least, had Alien vs. Predator, Tempest, Rayman, and Iron Soldier. The Jag's failures were just more spectacular than those of the 32X, and thus Atari's system is often judged as being the same as Sega's doomed add-on.

What's more, the 32X represents a bigger screw-over to those who bought it back in 1994. For all of the Jag's problems, Atari didn't drop the system shortly after its release and start trying to sell its customers their real next-gen hardware. Sega created and marketed the 32X knowing full well that the Saturn was on its way, and only the most hubristic of executives would think that people might buy two brand new game units from the same company in less than a year.

Now, the Jaguar CD might just be worse than the 32X.

Wavelflack

11-08-2003, 03:34 AM

Though I have soft spots for both systems, the scales tip massively in 32X's favor. 32X had Shadow Squadron. By all rights, this should be reason anough to declare victory, but I can add to it. Arcade perfect Afterburner & Space Harrier (vs. arcade perfect Raiden..zzz), Kolibri, the best version of Virtua Racing (comparable to the arcade in all respects)[compare to Checkered Flag], Knuckles Chaotix (a completely underappreciated episode in the Sonic lineage), plus "good" versions of games such as MKII, Blackthorne, etc.

32X (which, I remind you, is a system) had the specs and stats all over the Jag, plus it had the games. Also, the 32X could run sound FX AND music at the same time!!

wcmiker

11-08-2003, 05:37 AM

I think Jaguar is worst than Sega 32X.

Maybe I didn't give Jag enough time, I had one with AVP and Tempest that I sold 3 days after getting it. :-P

Still have my Sega 32X though, in fact, I am 7 games away from a complete collection.

thegreatescape

11-08-2003, 05:43 AM

My marshmallows are with the 32x. Some nice arcade conversions, knuckles, and virtua racing that wasnt like the saturn version.

And best of all, you can actually find 32x' in Australia. I have a friend that once saw a Jag, but it was behind a glass window, and i do believe there may have been velvet rope involved. :eek 2:

oesiii

11-08-2003, 07:01 AM

I think the Jag has the worst repuatation because it was Atari's last console and drove the company out of business. But it's software library is much better than the 32X. Sega gets a pass on the 32X these days because they came back strong with two great consoles in the Saturn and the Dreamcast and we fanboys forgive them :)

The Jag has 79 titles total about double what came out for the 32X. Tempest 2K, Alien vs. Predator, Power Drive Rally, Rayman, and Battlemorph were all great looking and playing games when they came out in the mid-90's and still hold up. The Jag also had the best console ports at the time of Doom, Wolf 3D, and NBA Jam TE.

I also personally think the Dragon's Lair port on the Jag was the best option for playing the arcade game at home until the Daphne emu came out last year. But I'm a DL fanboy so I needed my fix :D

Ernster

11-08-2003, 07:50 AM

I think the N-gage, should be added to the poll LOL

Atari7800

11-08-2003, 09:16 AM

Say what you will about the 32x, but don't call it a 16-bit system. It may need the backbone of a 16-bit system (the Genesis) in order to operate, but it's 32-bit through and through. TWO 32-bit chips actually, from the same family of the CPU's found in the Saturn.

I can't believe no one has mentioned Virtua Fighter... it's a fantastic game! Not as pretty as the arcade game, but it works. And it plays GREAT. Compare it to the really dreadful Fight For Life and you'll see what I mean.
It's a shame so few people can play the 32x game DarXide... it really shows what the system could do. High frame rate, great texture mapping...

Both the Jaguar and the 32x had the technical goods (however compromised) to deliver some truly great games... it's a real shame neither system lived up to its potential.

SaturnRox

11-08-2003, 09:30 AM

I would have liked to see some of the 32x model 2 arcade board conversions that were supposed to be in the works like Daytona and Virtua Cop. They would have sounded like shit, but how would they have looked? Daytona for 32x? Humm...

The Jag had a lot going for it too... just no devlopment money for games and zilch interest from third party developers.

Incidentally, I played the N-Gage a few days ago... I was very impressed with the graphics! Too bad the controls fart in your face and the whole unit just feels super-cheap.

wberdan

11-08-2003, 09:52 AM

jaguar is definetely better... the good games on the jaguar are a step above the good games on the 32x. the 32x is a turd. im glad i only paid 20$ for it new when it was still available.

willie

Sylentwulf

11-08-2003, 09:55 AM

<--- is a Jaguar fan who will burn this thread to the ground and salt the earth it once stood on.

ManekiNeko

11-08-2003, 10:38 AM

Wow, they're neck and neck... but I have to give the dubious honor to the 32X. At least with the Jaguar, you didn't have to bother assembling it out of a half dozen different pieces, then crossing your fingers and hoping it would all work.
The best part of the 32X is that you could unplug it and play some Genesis games.

JR

Epicenter

11-08-2003, 10:58 AM

At least the 32x didn't overheat .. and its controller could actually be held in one's hands. who the fuck needs those 50 ant-sized buttons?

Zaxxon

11-08-2003, 08:18 PM

At least the 32x didn't overheat ..

Your Jag overheated? I've never heard of that happening before.

and its controller could actually be held in one's hands. who the fuck needs those 50 ant-sized buttons?

The pad is too big for your hands? Are you a dwarf ? The Jag pad is just as wide, deep and long as a PS pad. It's just solid in the middle where the keypad is.

Arqueologia_Digital

11-08-2003, 09:03 PM

I don�t think the Jaguar is a bad console :o , i think you�re wrong Anthony1 and if i have to choose, the 32X is worst than the Jaguar, but also i think that none of those systems are CRAAAAP

Ed Oscuro

11-08-2003, 11:04 PM

It's a shame so few people can play the 32x game DarXide... it really shows what the system could do. High frame rate, great texture mapping...

I also haven't played that one, but DarXide came to my mind nonetheless.

Jaguar had Alien vs. Predator...well, okay I guess, fun? Perhaps that's the must have (along with Tempest) for the system, but it seems to me that the library didn't really have a whole lot going for it.

Heh, when I first heard that there was an AvP on the Jaguar my first thought was "wow, that must be one overpowered console." I imagined it had CD-ROM music (not that that's impossible on the Jag :D) and graphics to match the PC version (I'd aleady played the PC version and I wasn't really thinking about lower resolution on the Jaguar, I just thought it'd be sweet, heh).

Epicenter

11-09-2003, 02:50 AM

esquire

11-09-2003, 03:14 AM

The best part of the 32X is that you could unplug it and play some Genesis games.

I am not sure if you know this, but you do not need to unplug the 32X to play Genny games. The 32X plays both carts.

I think both systems are not that bad. However the Jaguar CD does blow considering the price you pay for one and the limited library that's available for it.

Why wasn't the CD-i included? That has to be the worst console ever. Most of the games were ports from other systems (3DO, Jaguar CD, Sega CD) or the PC. How many times do we need to see Myst, Dragon's Lair I & II, Space Ace, Lords of the Rising Sun etc on a console? The Zelda games sucked. So did the versions of Whack-A-Bubble and Tetris. I mean does anyone actually still play games on that thing? I know I still play my 32X and Jaguar. I only have a CD-i because I am a collector and the games are fairly cheap for it. I never say "Hey, I feel like playing the CD-i tonight."

Zaxxon

11-09-2003, 03:40 PM

I've heard the Jaguar is very prone to overheating .. may be wrong though. And the photos I've seen of the controllers showed these dreamcast-controller sized things with odd button positioning and about 60 tiny remote-control sized buttons. o.O

So your opinion that the Jag sucks is based entirely on 3rd person hearsay and photos you saw and no actual experience. m'kay
If you ever get to actually hold a Jag pad you'll see it's not especially large or bulky and is actually quite comfortable. The PS pad is much more of a hand cramper. The only system I've ever heard of overheating was the Astrocade.

zmweasel

11-09-2003, 04:17 PM

If you ever get to actually hold a Jag pad you'll see it's not especially large or bulky and is actually quite comfortable. The PS pad is much more of a hand cramper.

I entirely disagree with you. The Jaguar controller is large, bulky, and extremely uncomfortable; the PlayStation controller is an ergonomic dream. I assume you also enjoyed the original Xbox controller?

-- Z.

Zaxxon

11-09-2003, 04:40 PM

I entirely disagree with you. The Jaguar controller is large, bulky, and extremely uncomfortable; -- Z.

Set a PS pad right on top of a Jag pad, they're the same size. The Jag pad fills the palm of your hand and that makes it more comfortable for extended playing sessions in my experience. You don't need to squeeze it between your thumb and fingers with nothing in your palm. Everyone complained about how the PS controller gave them hand cramps back in 1995. Now you don't hear complaints because everyone has become used to it by now.

the PlayStation controller is an ergonomic dream.

Yeah, if we all had hands like Lobsterboy.

I assume you also enjoyed the original Xbox controller?

I have no opinion on it. Never really used it much. I assume you have very tiny hands.

Kid Ice

11-09-2003, 05:03 PM

I voted 32X, based on the "which is more pathetic" subject line.

Neither boasts many superior games that are not done on other systems. If it weren't for Shadow Squadron, the 32X would run away with this. The 32X also has the tendency to freeze up a lot, and it's a pain to install. The Jaguar is a pathetic system (64 bit? Please...), but the 32X is a pathetic add-on, and add-ons are almost always pathetic, increasing its patheticity.

hydr0x

11-09-2003, 06:30 PM

@ z & z Playstation Controllers suck! they are one of the most un-ergonomic gamepads ever

NoahsMyBro

11-09-2003, 06:34 PM

- zmweasel ->

Have you actually used the Jag controller? (I'm not trying to antagonize, it's a sincere question.) When I saw pictures of the Jag controller, I hated it. It was ugly, and looked enormous. When I then used the controller in real life, I found it to be very, very comfortable.

It was the first non-joystick controller I liked, as a matter of fact. Not to say I had issues with the Genesis, PSX, or SNES previously; I simply never got used to them.

And, fwiw, I voted 32X as well. I actually liked the Jaguar, and think it got a bad rap. As some of it's better games prove (Battlesphere, Zero-5, Defender 2k, Tempest2k, Protector, Battlemorph, and I personally liked Atari Karts a lot), the Jag really did have the goods if the developer made the effort to exploit them.

Zaxxon

11-09-2003, 06:39 PM

- zmweasel ->

Have you actually used the Jag controller? (I'm not trying to antagonize, it's a sincere question.)

zmweasel wrote the Atari Jaguar: Official Gamer's Guide.

Sylentwulf

11-09-2003, 06:47 PM

The only system I've ever heard of overheating was the Astrocade.

Plasytation 1 and Intellivision 1 overheat ALL the time. That's why we all put our PS1 systems upside down ;) (OK, PART of the reason) The Coleco AC adapter also gets REALLY hot, just not technically overheating.

Zaxxon

11-09-2003, 07:14 PM

I was going to say INTV but I don't recall them overheating back in the early 80's. Now that they're 20+ years old, yeah they fail due to overheating quite a lot.

NoahsMyBro

11-09-2003, 07:40 PM

- zmweasel ->

Have you actually used the Jag controller? (I'm not trying to antagonize, it's a sincere question.)

zmweasel wrote the Atari Jaguar: Official Gamer's Guide.

Wow. I feel pretty stupid now! To quote a .sig I saw the somewhere the other day:
There is no emoticon to describe how I'm feeling right now.... - Simpsons Comicbook Guy

hamburgler

11-09-2003, 09:02 PM

I would say yes to both because the jaguar and & 32X are posibbly the worst systems ever. LOL

Goodwill Hunter

11-09-2003, 09:45 PM

Very hard to vote one way or the other on this one...wish there was a 3rd option like "Yes, both sucked for the most part, but both had their redeeming qualities as well."

Yes, the 32x is flaky, and Sega screwed the early adopters, but Virtua Racing and Virtua Fighter are sweet on the system, and were awesome for their time. And I agree with an earlier poster that Shadow Squadron is worth the price of admission alone...what a great-looking, fun-to-play polygon masterpiece! If only Star Wars Arcade had been built on SS's engine, it could have made the system.

The Jag is a more solid piece of hardware, but the games aren't as special to me as those on the 32x. I like the FPS lineup for the Jag...Wolf3D, AvP, Doom, and the CD versions of Dragon's Lair and Space Ace are very nice. But oddly enough, when compared to the 32x, the thing that keeps the Jag close to it is a piece of added-on hardware....namely, the JagCD.

Not the games, but what I imagine is a rather simple bit of code that I can't see why the other CD playing consoles don't add in some form...the Jag's VLM!!! I love the Virtual Light Machine in the JagCD and use it exclusively to play music in my game room. I even picked up a second setup and hooked it up to my TV/Stereo system in the family room...always gets lots of comments at parties and get togethers.

The code must be minimal, and almost purely mathematical...I just wish the newer systems had something like it. I'd love to learn more about the VLM and who created it, but it rarely gets mentioned...anyone know of info about it?

By the way, I voted Jag the more pathetic, almost solely based on the "babes-in-the-cave" infomercial Atari made for the Jag in its dying days...if you haven't seen it, it is one of the most bizzare pieces of marketing ever made for any product, let alone video games. Even so, it was a hard call for me to make.

Rich

oesiii

11-09-2003, 09:57 PM

The code must be minimal, and almost purely mathematical...I just wish the newer systems had something like it. I'd love to learn more about the VLM and who created it, but it rarely gets mentioned...anyone know of info about it?

That's easy to remember for me, it was designed by Jeff Minter, the cool guy that programmed Tempest 2000 :D

A little more info here:
http://www.audiovisualizers.com/toolshak/vidsynth/jag_vlm/jag_vlm.htm

Mr Mort

11-09-2003, 10:59 PM

I'm going to say the Jag is the worst of the 2.

I've always had a soft spot for the 32X. Virtua Racing is what had me convinced to buy the system, easily the best console version of VR. Virtua Fighter is also a great title, every bit as playable as its arcade conterpart, Shadow Squadron is a great shooter, WWF Wrestlemania the Arcade game is one of my favorite stupid and brainless arcade style-games, but last, there is the under-appreciated Knuckles' Chaotix. Beautiful and virbrant graphics, cool 3D bosses, innovative gameplay (the whole rubber-band thing is great), the works.

I can't think of any Jaguar Games that are on the same level as Knuckles' Chaotix. The FPS on it are sure nice, and Tempest 2000 is great, but I can't enjoy them nearly as much as the 32X offerings.

Gunstarhero

11-10-2003, 06:47 AM

I voted 32x.

The Jaguar has a much better selection of titles, it has more titles to choose from, the machine is designed better(as in one-piece), the controller is better than the Genesis pad, and its easier to find one that has all the connectors required to power it up.

Whether you feel the games are too '16-bit' or not, they are still better overall over the 32x, and you will find a wider variety on the Jaguar. It has great FPS, pinball, a couple good Fighting games, sports(I love Brutal Sports Football), Puzzlers, and in true Atari fashion, some great Unique games like Tempest 2000, and Iron Soldier(who says Jag can't do 3D?). Worms, and Raiden are always good ways to spice up your Jag collection too. It's not the greatest machine in the world, but it does represent most, if not all, of the different genres of games, something I think the 32x simply doesn't do, nor could it with its tiny library.

Jag pad vs. PS pad: The Jag pad is a very comfortable controller, but maybe only if you have Mans' hands. It's an American console, its going to have bigger controllers, most Americans aren't tiny like the Japanese. I know I have decent size hands like a real man, so the Jaguar controller fits perfect for me. I hate the keypad though, its way to hard to hit the right button on there without taking your eye off the game, but at least the whole thing is completely Atari original, something which brings us to the PS controller; The PS controller is comfortable too, no doubt. I have no problems with it other than the fact that like the PS console, the controller is borrowed technology from Nintendo, its just a SNES pad with handles. The only reason the PS doesn't cramp my hands is because of the handles, but those handles could use some texturing because after about 20 minutes or so, my hands tend to get a little sweaty and I lose grip on those smooth handles. The Jaguar pad is rough textured, and its hand grips aren't angled in a weird way, like the PS pad handles which actually aid in you losing your grip. If the handles were textured that would have been better.

ozyr

11-10-2003, 10:34 AM

I would go with the Jaguar over the 32X any day! Yes, I'll admit the Jaguar collection of games isn't the greatest overall, but there are some pretty damn good games for this system.

As for the controller gripes - those who hate it, that just your opinion. I personally have no problem with the controllers at all. Fits my hand nicely - not too big or small! Actually, I prefer them over others, even the PS1, N64 and others that people rave about. So there... :fist:

zmweasel

11-10-2003, 11:08 AM

Actually, I prefer them over others, even the PS1, N64 and others that people rave about. So there... :fist:

I know I have decent size hands like a real man, so the Jaguar controller fits perfect for me.

Yeah, if we all had hands like Lobsterboy.

Did the Digital Press forums suddenly turn into the GameFAQs forums while I was away? Ugh.

I have average-sized hands, according to the jeweler who fitted me for my wedding ring. I'm also secure enough in my masculinity to laugh when it's implied that I'm not a "real man" because I point out that the original Jaguar controller, as with the original Xbox controller, was the opposite of ergonomic.

Atari and Microsoft themselves recognized the faults of their controllers -- Atari later than Microsoft, alas -- and later shipped revised versions (Atari ProController and Microsoft S Controller).

My apologies in advance for introducing intelligent discourse into the thread. I only pray that, in time, I'll learn to substitute bird-flipping emoticons for thoughtful opinion.

-- Z.

Ed Oscuro

11-10-2003, 11:19 AM

i like the xbox controllr it's just the rite size. LOL

Well, I actually don't mind the original too much. My problem with it would be that it's a bit stiff, but the bit of resistance the joystick gives helps.

For whatever reason, those horribly shaped nasty little black and white buttons never really hurt my fingers; the same is true of the A-B-Y-X (whatever they are) buttons. I can't say that I like the feeling you get when you smash your finger on the convex portion of a concave button (if I miss hitting the middle), nor do I like rubbery buttons. At least the XBOX controller doesn't fall into that particular hole.

My biggest gripe with it is that the darn shoulder buttons offer too much resistance, and when you're sitting there pulling it over and over to the constant accompaniment of the flat "plung plung" of spring and plastic meeting, it gets ridiculous. It's audible enough through headphones, and much more annoying, I'm sure, for the poor soul trapped in the basement with you.

Now the N64 controller is lovely, especially since it has the option of holding it with one hand (I always used two, though) and yet the middle grip doesn't get in the way.

The Unknown Gamer

11-10-2003, 11:46 AM

christianscott27

11-10-2003, 12:05 PM

the 32x would be my choice, simply for technical reasons, these things are more of a headache in terms of hook up and use. i get the feeling, no actually i read this somewhere, that the 32x was rushed onto the market before it was ready as a stopgap. as a result you have lots of hardware flaws, especially for a device with no moving parts. then theres the spotty software support, sega was a mess in that time period and it shows. what the hell is up with those "sega cd 32x" titles, so you have to build the frakenconsole tower just to play a liberman friendly version of night trap??

the jag, for all of its shortcomings is aging decently, once a system is well in the wake of the current crop its own merits become clear. its a quirky system but not so godawful you cant have a good time playing it. i should add though that the jag hardware does seem pretty shoddy too, anyone else familiar with the "red screen of doom"?

oesiii

11-10-2003, 02:30 PM

i should add though that the jag hardware does seem pretty shoddy too, anyone else familiar with the "red screen of doom"?

lol, yeah but most of the time that's from dirty cart contacts. Get some qtips and alcohol ;)

I think the Jag console is solid but the CD is another story, real fragile *_*

K3V

11-10-2003, 03:27 PM

In my eye you can run ANY Jaguar game on the Genesis or SNES without any add on.

Yeah, because we all know how much better the SNES version of DOOM is than the Jaguar version. :hmm:

I voted 32X. I owned a Jaguar before I got my 32X and the 32X's version of DOOM is laughable compared to the Jag version (screen size, resolution and you can only ever see the front side of enemies/objects). I did enjoy a few of the 32X's games like Knuckles, but overall the Jag has a bigger game library and has more games worth playing.

32X (which, I remind you, is a system) had the specs and stats all over the Jag, plus it had the games. Also, the 32X could run sound FX AND music at the same time!!

Umm...the majority of Jag games have SFX and music at the same time. A few have litte/no music (mostly the early games like Cybermorph, Trevor McFur, etc), but saying the Jag can't handle music and SFX simultaneously is ridiculous.

Zaxxon

11-10-2003, 06:56 PM

Did the Digital Press forums suddenly turn into the GameFAQs forums while I was away? Ugh.

-- Z.

Do you have to cry that this is now the GameFaqs forum everytime someone disagrees with you? A little sensitive? When were you away?

Wavelflack

11-10-2003, 07:00 PM

The Jag indeed had music vs. fx problems, which I remember reading about originating from a shitty bus structure/design. In fact, now that I think of it, I believe this is also mentioned specifically in "The First Quarter" (or whatever it's name is now)--Steven Kent's book. Anyway, Doom is also an example of this. All sound fx, no music. In fact, when you beat the game, you are finally treated to music...but there are no sound FX when you shoot the enemies behind the credits!! So there is nothing ridiculous about this assertion. Developers eventually overcame this flaw, much in the way SNES programmers overcame the horrible flickering and slow down that came built in for that system.

Moving on:

"Remember Virtua Racer for the Genesis is almost exactly the same as the 32X version except that one has an extra track and car, but that is it. Even a spokesman for Nintendo said at the time that Virua Racer could run as just a game on the SNES, and that the 32X was SEGAs way of catching up to the power of the
SNES. Come on people I have the article where Game Pro reviews the specs of the 32X and even they call it a 16 bit high end add on."

Hee hee! Where in the world do you get these ideas?!

1. The 32X version has several thousand more polygons on screen than the Genesis SVP version.
2. The 32X also has 16 bit color, as opposed to dithered shading for out of palette colors (Genesis).
3. The 32X version has two extra tracks, two extra cars.
4. This may seem obvious, but it also has a larger soundtrack.
5. The physics of the 32X version are certainly refined (not that the Genesis version was bad).

As for the Super NES trying to run Virtua Racing unassisted...please see Hard Drivin', Race Drivin', Test Drive series, or any other poly racing game on the Super Nes for proof negative. They may be able to get the game coded and runing, but at 1-2 fps. How about by using the super FX chip? Nope. Look at the geometry in VR vs. Stunt Race FX (aka FX Trax). In fact, did Stunt Race FX use the FX2 chip? I think it may have! Anyway, VR has greater geometry in play, and certainly more speed. "Even a spokesman for Nintendo said.." What an objective source!
Finally, the 32X employs two SH-2 32 bit RISC processors (the same that ran the Saturn, as well as [I believe] the Model 2 arcade hardware), and overlays it's video output over the Genesis' video output. I don't know how you could come up with the idea that it's a "high end 16 bit" machine...

zmweasel

11-10-2003, 07:30 PM

Do you have to cry that this is now the GameFaqs forum everytime someone disagrees with you? A little sensitive? When were you away?

I don't mind being disagreed with, but I'm greatly dismayed when that disagreement is phrased in such immature ways. Admittedly, yours was the least retarded of the responses, but surely you're better than "Yeah, if we all had hands like Lobsterboy." It's quite jarring to come back to the forum after a much-needed break from the online world and be "welcomed" with such idiocy. (Then again, I'm an idiot for injecting myself into a system-war thread.)

-- Z.

digitalpress

11-10-2003, 07:49 PM

I normally don't dive into these obviously acidic fanboy "my system is better than yours" threads, but fuck it.

I think the Jaguar blows.

I love Tempest 2000 and the original Iron Soldier. Alien vs. Predator... ehh. It was good back then but the frame rate is pretty bad, go check it out now. Doom was nice, better than the 32X but is still nicer elsewhere. And whoever said the Jaguar controller is too big or feels weird... AMEN brother. I don't care if I have tiny hands. It's uncomfortable unlike any other controller (except maybe the NES gamepad which is uncomfortable in the other direction, cramped instead of vast).

32X is no joy either, but I think about the library a little more highly. It would be tough to pit the two systems' best titles (like Tempest 2000 vs. Shadow Squadron) against each other but I find myself playing 32X games much more often because there are so few in the Jaguar library that I enjoy.

By the way, this has nothing to do with either system's technical prowess. It has to do with the systems' libraries and in my home the 32X gets much more play.

K3V

11-10-2003, 09:08 PM

Mr Mort

11-10-2003, 10:21 PM

Remember Virtua Racer for the Genesis is almost exactly the same as the 32X version except that one has an extra track and car, but that is it.

You must be joking...

Have you seen the 32X and Genesis versions of VR running at the same time? I have, as I was a huge fan of the game, and had both versions (until I got rid of the Genesis version), and they are anything but "exactly the same".

As someone stated earlier, the 32X version offers:
-a significantly higher polygon count
-2 additional tracks, 2 additional cars
-higher quality sound effects and music
-a MUCH higher framerate, (the Genesis version looks unplayable next to the 32X version)
-2-player support

Believe me, they are not the same. It's like saying the arcade and 2600 versions of Pac-Man are identical...

Wavelflack

11-11-2003, 12:15 AM

To be fair, I think the guy has us on a technicality. You see, he's talking about two entirely different games--"Virtua Racer" and "Virua Racer", whereas we are talking about Virtua Racing.
:)

K3M:

"You were implying that the Jag could not play music and SFX simultaneously at all, not that it simply had "problems" doing so."

Indeed I was. It's only reasonable to say so because it's correct. Not that the hardware flaw was insuperable, but the music vs. fx choice wasn't a matter of game design or artistic imperative, but rather that the Jag, as designed, had some kind of bandwidth limitation (at least where sound is concerned) which forced developers to make a judgement call on music vs. fx.. It's precisely as accurate as saying that the SNES could not scale sprites (though they managed to imitate the effect by reversing the roles of backgrounds and sprites), or to say that the Saturn could not do alpha channel transparency (developers managed to imitate it through dithering/flickering, or other tricks).

Incidentally, I note that the tone of your original statement implies that the music/fx choice was an artistic one, not a forced decision. "A few have litte/no music (mostly the early games like Cybermorph, Trevor McFur, etc), but saying the Jag can't handle music and SFX simultaneously is ridiculous." You must feel that the above mentioned games were too good for music? The developers were so proud of their sound FX that they didn't want to muddy the aural waters? That the developers were making a "statement"? Perhaps you feel that the games were rushed to market without time for a soundtrack to be scripted? That may fly for Cybermorph and Trevor McFur (they also ran out of time to enable separately scrolling backgrounds..), but Doom?

As for "If you need examples, see the entire Jag library except Cybermorph, Trevor McFur, and Doom", you seemed to have forgotten Doom prior to my reminding you. Now it's just THOSE three games. I can't fact check this, as I only have 15 or so Jag titles, but I'll bet that there are other Jag games with this peculiar failing. How about it, Jag fans? Anyone with a complete (or nearly so) library want to confirm or refute this hypothesis?

Wavelflack

11-11-2003, 12:44 AM

Seems that Iron Soldier 2 (cart), Air Cars & AvP also have no in game music...

What future revelations are in store? Tune in tomorrow!

Lost Monkey

11-11-2003, 12:50 AM

There is a rumour that Jag Doom was compiled to run with the music off because Id found that when they compiled it with the music on, it caused the (known) network errors to occur more often.

Off the top of my head, Raiden was one of the first releases for the Jag and had both music and sfx. Note that Raiden is a port.. all the other games (barring Doom) with no music are original titles for which Atari would have had to PAY for music... (hint, hint)

Rev. Link

11-11-2003, 12:58 AM

I had to vote for Jaguar, simply because Atari never recovered for it.

32X wasn't all that great either, but at least Sega was able to live on for a good while afterwords.

Gunstarhero

11-11-2003, 06:33 AM

waveflack wrote:

As for "If you need examples, see the entire Jag library except Cybermorph, Trevor McFur, and Doom", you seemed to have forgotten Doom prior to my reminding you. Now it's just THOSE three games. I can't fact check this, as I only have 15 or so Jag titles, but I'll bet that there are other Jag games with this peculiar failing. How about it, Jag fans? Anyone with a complete (or nearly so) library want to confirm or refute this hypothesis?

Ok, I have over 50 Jaguar games, and I'll refute your assumption that the Jag can't handle in game music.That excuse for Doom missing music due to network failings sounds reasonable, but I never missed the Doom music on Jag, I like to put on some Megadeth while playing that. Anyway, what about Tempest 2000? Seems to be an obvious choice that most any Jaguar owner would instantly recognize as a title that shows off what the Jaguar can handle musically, not only are there alot of songs on this cartridge(8 or 9?), the music comes through crystal clear and loops perfectly, all in the midst of a madcap crazy amount of carnage and moving objects. If you want to go the 3D route, Wolfenstein 3D has in-game music, and the game still runs at a better framerate than the original PC version! A game such as Alien vs. Predator was definitely missing music for artistic reasons, and the absence of tunes really adds to the atmosphere.

There is also I-WAR, which is one of the heavier 3D games on the Jag, one that actually is making the Jag's video chips do some real work. Putting it's graphic problems aside, this title has a really nice soundtrack in-game, on par with T2000. Rayman has music, the pinball games, Brutal Sports Football, NBA JAM....I would say most of the games support music, and all of them that do, have the option of turning it off with the 8 button.

SaturnRox

11-11-2003, 10:25 AM

So many people take things at face value. For example when you say Neo Geo most people think 24 bit when in reality it is a high end 16 bit console. The same could be said of both the 32X and Jaugar. Remember Virtua Racer for the Genesis is almost exactly the same as the 32X version except that one has an extra track and car, but that is it. Even a spokesman for Nintendo said at the time that Virua Racer could run as just a game on the SNES, and that the 32X was SEGAs way of catching up to the power of the
SNES. Come on people I have the article where Game Pro reviews the specs of the 32X and even they call it a 16 bit high end add on.

Then there is the Jaguar, I got in to an arguement on another classic game forum for calling the Jaguar utter crap. Is there is anyone out there who knows what it was capable of. Certainly not Atari or even Telegames when they came out with Iron Soldier 3 a year or two ago. In my eye you can run ANY Jaguar game on the Genesis or SNES without any add on.

:hmm:

Who IS this clown?

Yes, Genesis VR is exactly the same as the 32x version except for the extra car and track. And Pizza Hut's Supreme Stuffed Crust pizza is EXACTLY the same as the .89 cent frozen pizzas you can get at the grocery store except that it has real cheese and a few more toppings.

LOL

In your eye you can run ANY Jaguar game on the Genesis or SNES without an add on? What does your OTHER eye think?

Please show me a game like Battlemorph on the Genesis. Or Battlesphere. Or Tempest 2000. Or AvP. Or even crap like World Team Racing or Fight For Life. Yes, the Genny was a real poly-pusher! And those smooth 60 fps FX-2 SNES games like Dirt Trax FX really could not have been done on the Jaguar!

Have you seen Zero Tolerance for the Genesis? JUST LIKE Alien vs Predator on Jag! And Doom SNES is JUST LIKE Doom Jaguar! Battlemorph on the Jag has got NOTHING on Star Fox FX for the SNES!

You also said that "even a spokesman for Nintendo said at the time that Virua Racer could run as just a game on the SNES"

:hmm:

Really?!? A NINTENDO SPOKESMAN said that about a COMPETING CONSOLE? It must be true!

I must go play some more polygonal texture-mapped madness on my Genny now! Bye!

K3V

11-11-2003, 10:46 AM

K3M:

"You were implying that the Jag could not play music and SFX simultaneously at all, not that it simply had "problems" doing so."

Indeed I was. It's only reasonable to say so because it's correct. Not that the hardware flaw was insuperable, but the music vs. fx choice wasn't a matter of game design or artistic imperative, but rather that the Jag, as designed, had some kind of bandwidth limitation (at least where sound is concerned) which forced developers to make a judgement call on music vs. fx.. It's precisely as accurate as saying that the SNES could not scale sprites (though they managed to imitate the effect by reversing the roles of backgrounds and sprites), or to say that the Saturn could not do alpha channel transparency (developers managed to imitate it through dithering/flickering, or other tricks).

Incidentally, I note that the tone of your original statement implies that the music/fx choice was an artistic one, not a forced decision. "A few have litte/no music (mostly the early games like Cybermorph, Trevor McFur, etc), but saying the Jag can't handle music and SFX simultaneously is ridiculous." You must feel that the above mentioned games were too good for music? The developers were so proud of their sound FX that they didn't want to muddy the aural waters? That the developers were making a "statement"? Perhaps you feel that the games were rushed to market without time for a soundtrack to be scripted? That may fly for Cybermorph and Trevor McFur (they also ran out of time to enable separately scrolling backgrounds..), but Doom?

As for "If you need examples, see the entire Jag library except Cybermorph, Trevor McFur, and Doom", you seemed to have forgotten Doom prior to my reminding you. Now it's just THOSE three games. I can't fact check this, as I only have 15 or so Jag titles, but I'll bet that there are other Jag games with this peculiar failing. How about it, Jag fans? Anyone with a complete (or nearly so) library want to confirm or refute this hypothesis?

Look, you were saying the Jag couldn't play music and sound effects simultaneously, when there are plenty of games demonstrating that it indeed can. Just because a handful of games in the Jag's entire library don't have music doesn't mean it can't do music and sound effects at the same time.

I am not implying that I know the reasoning behind why or why not the handful of games (and yes I own every Jag game - I might be missing one or two games off the top of my head, but I'd say 95% of the library has music and SFX) don't have music. Was it a stylistic choice? Was it a trade off in performance? Are there bugs in the Jag hardware that make it difficult to do both at the same time? I don't know.

But what I do know is that your insinuation that the Jag can't play music and sound effects at the same was wrong, because most of the games in it's library do just that.

Wavelflack

11-11-2003, 06:47 PM

A quote from Trip Hawkins:

"Atari has trouble getting good sound during gameplay because of how they set up their bus structure."

This is on page 391 of "The Last Quarter".

I never said that it was impossible for the Jag to produce sfx and music simultaneously, only that it obviously required workarounds to do so. Much in the way (as I also previously mentioned) the Saturn managed to do transparency effects and the SNES managed to get out of it's slowdown/flicker world. Both were hardware flaws or oversights in design. Do some research.

You guys can make excuses all day long, but at the end of the day, you still have a game library with a significant portion simply unable to run sfx and music simultaneously. The Jag fan sites notice this, frequently mentioning things such as "This game is pleasantly surprising in that it actually has in-game music.."(etc.) Please name me some Genesis, SNES, N64, or NES games that alternate between sfx and music. Doom HAS music, but only in between levels and during the ending. There are no FX present during those interludes. Understandable for a score screen, but the ending allows you to shoot silent weapons at various enemies while the credits roll...
Reread and digest my earlier posts. You'll notice that they are right on the money.

Gunstarhero:
"Ok, I have over 50 Jaguar games, and I'll refute your assumption that the Jag can't handle in game music."

Read more carefully. Here:
"I can't fact check this, as I only have 15 or so Jag titles, but I'll bet that there are other Jag games with this peculiar failing. How about it, Jag fans? Anyone with a complete (or nearly so) library want to confirm or refute this hypothesis?"

It turn out my hypothesis was correct. After running a cursory scan of 10-15 Jag game reviews, I managed to come up with another three titles featuring this problem. I didn't bother looking at the rest of the reviews, as I figured some Jag nut with a full library would give me an honest rundown on the ratio of games with and without this "feature". Don't naturally assume a defensive posture with regards to this. If you have a large library, why not point out which games are missing ingame music? Out of my 15 games, 4 have no ingame music. I would imagine a somewhat proportional number for someone with a larger library.

"That excuse for Doom missing music due to network failings sounds reasonable, but I never missed the Doom music on Jag, I like to put on some Megadeth while playing that."

:)
I like that excuse even better! The lack of ingame music was actually a feature (value plus!) for Jaguar owners, as Atari empathized with their consumers and knew they would prefer listening to their own tunes. Fantastic!

"A game such as Alien vs. Predator was definitely missing music for artistic reasons,"
You've got to be kidding me. I remember the movie using music very effectively, and is there another Alien game (pc or console) that is missing music?
This is starting to sound more and more like Titus and the "Kryptonite fog"..

Back to the other guy:

"But what I do know is that your insinuation that the Jag can't play music and sound effects at the same was wrong, because most of the games in it's library do just that."

My entire point was that the Jag had a definite hardware impediment to running fx and music simultaneously, and it reared it's ugly head not only in launch games, but in later generations of games as well. Workarounds were obviously developed (again, see Saturn/SNES analogies), but that doesn't mean it wasn't a legitimate problem and a legitimate hardware flaw.

Anybody else want to pony up some more titles?

K3V

11-11-2003, 07:45 PM

I guess you should've been a little clearer in your initial post if that's what you really meant.

Because...

Also, the 32X could run sound FX AND music at the same time!!

...doesn't sound like you thought the Jag could do both simultaneously at all.

icbrkr

11-11-2003, 07:47 PM

Personally, I've always thought that Zool had some kick ass music. BTW, it's off by default, hit the "0" key.

Gunstarhero

11-11-2003, 10:55 PM

"That excuse for Doom missing music due to network failings sounds reasonable, but I never missed the Doom music on Jag, I like to put on some Megadeth while playing that."

[2003_smile.gif]
I like that excuse even better! The lack of ingame music was actually a feature (value plus!) for Jaguar owners, as Atari empathized with their consumers and knew they would prefer listening to their own tunes. Fantastic!

Uhh..excuse me but I seriously like to listen to some jams on certain games. I didn't realize that it was against gamer law to do that. I'm not making excuses for lack of Music in Doom, I just like listening to my own, something wrong with that?

"A game such as Alien vs. Predator was definitely missing music for artistic reasons,"
You've got to be kidding me. I remember the movie using music very effectively, and is there another Alien game (pc or console) that is missing music?
This is starting to sound more and more like Titus and the "Kryptonite fog"..

Just wondering if you've actually played AvP, seeing as how you only have 15 games, you might not have this one. Only person besides you that ripped the Jag version of AvP for lack of music was EGM, and I don't think they even played the game.I mean, EGM reviewed it, but thats like a joke. AvP is an immersive experience designed to put you in the situation, I don't think the suspense this game delivers would have been pulled off with some cheesy music playing over you, where you couldn't hear the alien screetches and the whisper of the Predator behind you. The ambient sound of being in a space station, and the feeling of loneliness that derives from the silence, really is what sets this game apart, which is why the music was left out on yes, artistic reasons. Your denial that something like this would actually be done seems a bit on the pathologic side.

My entire point was that the Jag had a definite hardware impediment to running fx and music simultaneously, and it reared it's ugly head not only in launch games, but in later generations of games as well. Workarounds were obviously developed (again, see Saturn/SNES analogies), but that doesn't mean it wasn't a legitimate problem and a legitimate hardware flaw.

Well, I don't think you were THAT clear on your point originally. I see what your saying, but I just don't see the big deal.I mean, if it had been worked around, then it would be a developers problem after the first batch of games, and conversely I would assume that post 1st batch games generally would not show this problem. No ones making excuses for the Jag here, and if I had the motivation to hook up mine, I would help you in your quest to find out which games don't play fx, AND music simultaneously, but I'm not in the mood to play Jag these days. And no, thats not an excuse to dodge your challenge. :P

Wavelflack

11-12-2003, 12:09 AM

"AvP is an immersive experience designed to put you in the situation, I don't think the suspense this game delivers would have been pulled off with some cheesy music playing over you, where you couldn't hear the alien screetches and the whisper of the Predator behind you."

I remember Aliens (the movie) having music, and I remember it enhancing the suspense and tension, as well as accentuating the action. As I said, this seems to be more of an "after the fact" justification than a preplanned goal. Do other Aliens or AvP titles have music? Certainly! And if it was the only Jag game missing music, I might accept this premise. As such, it's simply another example in a series. AvP was delayed quite a bit, and maybe this was the compromise they had to acceopt to get the game to shelves in a playable fashion, reasonably soon.

"Just wondering if you've actually played AvP, seeing as how you only have 15 games, you might not have this one."

I have AvP, as well as Cybermorph, Trevor McFur, and Doom. I also have Tempest 2k, Iron Soldier, and a few other "high water marks", as well as the dregs such as Club Drive and Kasumi. I don't hate the Jaguar, you understand. I only am aware of it's limitations and flaws, especially in comparison to the 32X. My biggest disappointment with the Jag was that all of the Atari late 80's-early 90's arcade games didn't make it to it (I understand the reason why, but still..) I had visions of STUN Runner, Steel Talons, and Space Lords in my head when I got the Jag. It wasn't to be..

"I would assume that post 1st batch games generally would not show this problem."

But they still did, which meant it must have been a formidable hardware issue indeed. It doesn't bug me, and I was mainly being facetious by exclaiming that the 32X had the superior ability to run both music and fx simultaneously (hence the double exclamation points), but there's still a germ of truth to this.

K3: "I guess you should've been a little clearer in your initial post if that's what you really meant."

You'll forgive me if I don't spend extra time making points explicit to the point of redundancy. I think most people took what I wrote precisely the way I intended it.

ozyr

11-12-2003, 04:41 AM

bensenvill

11-12-2003, 05:39 AM

I hate to say it (because I am die hard atari) but at least the 32x had some decent games. come on, I mean tempest2k is a decent game but thats hands down as good as it gets. If only the jag came standard with the CD, things may have been different.

~Tj

Gunstarhero

11-12-2003, 06:47 AM

Do other Aliens or AvP titles have music? Certainly! And if it was the only Jag game missing music, I might accept this premise. As such, it's simply another example in a series. AvP was delayed quite a bit, and maybe this was the compromise they had to acceopt to get the game to shelves in a playable fashion, reasonably soon.

The problem with your theory here is that Jaguar AvP is the First game in the FPS series of Alien games. Alien Trilogy came second, and the PC games obviously were much later.It's not like we're talking about a sequel to a long running series up to that point, its the First one! It's not fair to compare it to later titles and point out shortcomings, or your percieved shortcomings. Think about something for a second, take a look at ID softwares two FPS games, Wolf3D and Doom, one has music, one doesn't. Now obviously ID knows how to put music and sfx during gameplay, as proven with their first game Wolf3D, and the game ran perfect, some say even better than the PC version. Then Doom, apparantly having music in game caused the network mode to crash, so they left it out. These two games are virtually identical,and then you have the even more advanced AvP, which actually set a high point in the genre at the time of release. I just don't believe that a company that can develop a game with this kind of quality, more advanced than its predecessors, left music out of it for any other reason than for artistic purposes. If the game was very amateur and really poorly made, I might believe your theory, but the game really comes alive without it. It would also help your case if Jaguar AvP was like the 3rd installment of the series, or if it was a port of the game from another system, but its not, it is a unique game.

K3V

11-12-2003, 07:38 AM

You'll forgive me if I don't spend extra time making points explicit to the point of redundancy. I think most people took what I wrote precisely the way I intended it.

It wouldn't have been redundant if you had just said it in your first post rather than ranting on and on about how I'm not really hearing sound effects and music at the same time on the Jag because the hardware is being tricked into doing it somehow.

Aswald

11-12-2003, 03:17 PM

32X bad.

But the Jaguar was stuck with the (grrr!) Tramiels.

That settled it.

sabre2922

11-12-2003, 05:15 PM

the 32x was an add on period, you had to have a Genesis in order for the thing to work, it was not a stand alone system, now maybe if Sega would have release the neptune or something, anway.
The Jaguar was actually a 16-bit system, it had dual 16-bit graphics processors and a 64-bit bandwith, but all this means nothing if a system is designed like a cheap volvo, it just wasnt built right.
Imoa the Jaguar was the bigger failure because it was the end of atari and had maybe 4 great games,and the Jag controller was just awful.

Neil Koch

11-12-2003, 06:28 PM

Both are pretty bad in terms that there were very few good unique games released for them. I have a worse taste in my mouth for the 32X though since I actually paid full price for it.

Zaxxon

11-12-2003, 08:04 PM

I only paid $20 for my new 32X with Star Wars and $10 for a new Shadow Squadron. Best $30 I ever spent on videogame stuff. I never had a problem with my 32X flaking out and never had a problem hooking it up. You just follow the instructions. If you just hook it up and leave it hooked up, you shouldn't have problems. If you're unhooking it every time you want to play a Genny game, as some mistakenly believe you need to do, then that's extra unnecessary wear and tear. I just wish DarXide came out here.

The Jag has a handful of really good games, though most are just Amiga ports. The Amiga ports like Cannon Fodder, Syndicate, Theme Park etc. aren't bad games at all but they sure don't take advantage of the custom hardware. None are as polished as games Sega made for the 32X. After playing the better Jaguar games it was really hard to go back to the Genesis. I just wish Atari had gotten even a couple big names(Konami, Capcom) to develop even one 2D game on the system. I don't understand how people have a problem with the Jag pad but never complain about the NES pad. That rectangle was ergonomic?

AFAIK the reason that Jag DOOM has no in game music, just between levels, has to do with the fact that Id didn't really optimize the PC game for the Jag at all. They just got it up and running and called it a day. The Jag uses a MOD player for music, like the Amiga. The music you hear between levels aren't MODs. They're just the MIDI files from the PC version. That's why they sound so tweezy-twerpy. The Wolf 3D music blows it away.

I'd say neither are pathetic. I'd rather play either of these over some highly regarded classic systems that don't do much for me.

ozyr

11-12-2003, 10:09 PM

No matter what anyone says, the Jaguar is a cool system. Sure, it didn't live up to what it could have been, but there are some damn cool games for it:

BattleMorph (CD) - Many worlds to explore in this exciting space game.
Iron Soldier - My favorite game type - 1st-person perspective combat.
Iron Soldier II (CD) - Just as good as the original.
Missile Command 3D - The virtual mode is breathtaking!
Rayman - Cute side-scrolling game that is a blast to play.
Tempest 2000 - The original remake of the arcade classic!
plus others that I really like....

Sure, more modern systems beat the crap out of it, but then again, they are newer systems. During it's time, the Jaguar was pretty good (in my opinion). It just didn't have a large enough software library to keep it going.

Besides, if the Jaguar trully sucked, then why are people still making games for it!