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View Full Version : Will we get "Toy Story" quality graphics with PS3



Anthony1
01-19-2004, 12:01 PM
I have heard repeatedly, over and over, that one day we would be playing games with "Toy Story" graphics.

Although some of the best PS2 and XBOX and GameCube games can look pretty damn incredible, they are no where near the "Toy Story" level of quality.

Do you think we will actually get to "Toy Story" quality visuals in the next generation?

Or do you think that it's still several more generations away?

omnedon
01-19-2004, 12:20 PM
current gen looks pretty close to me. Mario Sunshine, Metroid Prime. Not much diff in my eyes. -_-

Photo realistic renders, that is the next (and final) frontier. Once that wall is hit, they will be forced to address AI, plot, and gameplay, as that is all that will be left to tweak. :D

tholly
01-19-2004, 12:37 PM
I don't think the next generation of systems will have it yet. Maybe the one after that will, I dunno, but it will happen in the future, just not yet.

Trellisaze
01-19-2004, 12:40 PM
It's not too big of a stretch of the imagination in terms of cutscenes and perhaps still shots.

For the soul of the gameplay in action, I'll have to see it to believe it. I'm just not sure that the finer but crucial aspects of the graphics, like facial and body expressions and such, will be dynamic enough to make us think we're really controlling a virtual Buzz Lightyear.

MaRiNe
01-19-2004, 12:59 PM
Its very possible, although I think Shrek looked better than Toy Story... although I liked toy story a hell of a lot more.

Oobgarm
01-19-2004, 01:00 PM
Cutscenes/FMV? We're there and possibly beyond.

Core gameplay/Gameplay engine? Long time off, IMO. We'd be dropping "buku" ;) bucks on a system if it was capable of rendering stuff like that in real-time.

Zubiac666
01-19-2004, 01:13 PM
nah....not yet imo!
take a closer look at "Toy Story"!
The amount of detail is incredible:
The outdoor scences are best example.I doubt that any of the next-gen consoles can even create one of the "Toy story"-trees(thousands of bump-mapping leaves with hundrets of different textures).
NO WAY the next-gen consoles can handle dozens of these+houses,streets etc etc in real-time.

N-O W-A-Y!!!!!!!

MoreEbolaForYou
01-19-2004, 01:16 PM
for pre rendered cut-scenes? sure.

for real time rendering? no, not even close at all.


concering toy story:
"The RenderFarm is one of the most powerful rendering engines ever assembled, comprising 87 dual-processor and 30 four-processor SPARCstation 20s and an 8-processor SPARCserver 1000. The RenderFarm has the aggregate performance of 16 billion instructions per second -- its total of 300 processors represents the equivalent of approximately 300 Cray 1 supercomputers."

of course this is a little dated, but do you think your next gen system is going to have that much processing power? think about it.

kevincure
01-19-2004, 01:20 PM
The next generation of systems, assuming an increase in power similar to the difference between PS1 and PS2, will certainly have the *power* to do Toy Story quality graphics. The bottleneck will no longer be the computing power, but the talent of the developer. It clearly takes quite a bit longer for the 3d designer to create models of 100,000 polygons than of 1000 polygons. Many developers simply won't be able to do that level of graphics.

I wrote an article for Gaming Age a few years ago that suggested that, as processing power increased, you're going to see more "non-realistic" rendering, such as cel-shading, Viewtiful Joe-style 2d and Matsuura's new game (the "sequel" to Vib Ribbon). Smaller developers will find it easier to make a good-looking game with this type of graphic rendering that by trying to compete with Square and Nintendo on pure realism.

tholly
01-19-2004, 01:23 PM
for pre rendered cut-scenes? sure.

for real time rendering? no, not even close at all.


concering toy story:
"The RenderFarm is one of the most powerful rendering engines ever assembled, comprising 87 dual-processor and 30 four-processor SPARCstation 20s and an 8-processor SPARCserver 1000. The RenderFarm has the aggregate performance of 16 billion instructions per second -- its total of 300 processors represents the equivalent of approximately 300 Cray 1 supercomputers."

of course this is a little dated, but do you think your next gen system is going to have that much processing power? think about it.

Wow...that shit about the Render Farm is amazing...I never heard that before...thats a lot of power...

Captain Wrong
01-19-2004, 03:35 PM
No. Considering Toy Story quality animation still takes a long time to render even on Silicone Graphics workstations, there's no way a $300 console in the next few years is going to be able to do it on the fly.

Slipdeath
01-19-2004, 03:45 PM
nope not yet...soon tho...the toy story animations if u look at the detail

maxlords
01-19-2004, 03:58 PM
We'll be LUCKY to have em by 2020. That's WAY more advanced than anything we can get realt time currently. Makes even upcoming graphics hogs like Doom 3 and Half-Flie 2 look like jokes.

Kejoriv
01-19-2004, 04:29 PM
I think consumers will not have the quality in video games intil 2020. There is so much detail in Toy Story and Shrek. I think they could make these games before then, but then they will have to pass down the huge cost to comsumers something companies will never do.
~Kejoriv

RCM
01-19-2004, 04:50 PM
I don't think we will be able to get Toy Story quality graphics for the most demanding titles. I don't know, but don't think that it would be possible even for the least demanding graphic engines. I remember hearing that the T-Rex model in Jurassic Park was comprised of 90,000 polygons. While that is impressive, it doesn't seem so far out. But when you factor in the huge differences between Prerendered and real-time graphics you run into some snags in getting the same image quality. I remember reading that to get the same image quality you would have to have either a T-Rex model that was comprised of 500,000 million polygons or was it a graphic engine that ran at 500,000 million polygons per second ( I assume with 60fps and all graphic bells and whistles tunred on)? This was a couple years ago and I don't remember the article well so if anyone knows what I am talking about please correct me if I am wrong (chances are I am somwhere with those figures). Regardless, I don't think we would be able to get a free-roaming platformer like Mario to look like Toy Story in the coming generation. I think we will be closer then ever beforfe obviously. I think the next consoles are going to blow the doors off the current PC cards that are running DOOM 3 and Half Life 2. What I am hoping for in the next generation of consoles are to have even the "worst" looking titles blow the doors off of graphic powerhouses like Panzer Dragoon Orta and Halo 2. It's possible.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

Ed Oscuro
01-19-2004, 04:58 PM
I think consumers will not have the quality in video games intil 2020. There is so much detail in Toy Story and Shrek. I think they could make these games before then, but then they will have to pass down the huge cost to comsumers something companies will never do.
~Kejoriv

Detail (as I define it -- number of objects) isn't the issue here. We have as many objects being worked on in games right now as are in the movies. Much of what you see in Toy Story are truly extraneous details for realism (1.2 million leaves on Andy's block, 12K hairs on the characters' heads, etc) and video games would rather concern themselves with substance.

Can developers impart as much character to game entities as Toy Story does, except taking into account every possible movement and scenario? Eventually, yes, but it will always be expensive! Right now we can't put as much character into stuff or do cloth effects quite like in Toy Story (128 control points on a bookbag!), but would you notice on a TV screen? Maybe an HDTV...

I always shudder when somebody tries to compare video games to movie CGI -- here's a quote:


Pixar used Sun workstations at 1536 x 925 pixel resolution to produce Toy
Story 2 for Disney--totally digital.

Lucas Films is using Electrohome projectors for screening, editing, and
post-production work. Lucas Films originate in digital at 1920 x 1080
resolution.

...

1280 x 1024 pixels at 10,000 lumens seems to be the minimum acceptable for
digital projection.

It seems to me that's what the movie's resolution is at, too. PC games can run at this level of resolution, but console games have the benefit of not needing to run that high (though everybody's pushing progressive scan, heh).

8-bitNesMan
05-02-2007, 06:03 PM
I was bored and looking through some old threads. This one caught my eye. So what do ya'll think? Are we getting closer?

kedawa
05-02-2007, 11:35 PM
We won't quite get that quality of render out of the PS3. Its GPU is basically a last-gen pc gpu, afterall.
I doubt we'll get real-time ray-tracing anytime soon, either, but after seeing some screens from Crysis, I'd say next year's high-end gaming pc will be able to render images that are equivalent to those in Toy Story.

Oobgarm
05-03-2007, 06:59 AM
Cutscenes/FMV? We're there and possibly beyond.

Core gameplay/Gameplay engine? Long time off, IMO. We'd be dropping "buku" ;) bucks on a system if it was capable of rendering stuff like that in real-time.

I stand by my original post.

We still aren't close. The bump-mapping and other visual trickery does make things look better, the fluidity of animation and overall poly count isn't even close. Devs are just finding ways to push those shortcomings into the background, so most gamers focus on other graphics-related things.

veronica_marsfan
05-03-2007, 08:26 AM
FMVs are pre-recorded videos. No different than playing a DVD, and they have nothing to do with the console or its CPU/GPU.
I have heard repeatedly, over and over, that one day we would be playing games with "Toy Story" graphics.

Kingdom Hearts is pretty darn close to Toy Story. Port KH to a PS3, and give programmers 4 years of practice with the new hardware, and we'll see graphics indistinguishable from a VHS copy of Toy Story.

Won't be easy but it will be doable.

cyberfluxor
05-03-2007, 08:59 AM
On PC it's damn close to it and I'd say give it another 2 years and we'll be nearly on top of it. Consoles will take a little longer, I'd give it another generation or two. The issue is that Toy Story is pre-rendered while current games are polygon driven on the graphics card and can only make it so smooth. The other problem is with DPI, which needs to be addressed on the TVs.

slip81
05-03-2007, 12:16 PM
Kingdom Hearts is pretty darn close to Toy Story. Port KH to a PS3, and give programmers 4 years of practice with the new hardware, and we'll see graphics indistinguishable from a VHS copy of Toy Story.

Won't be easy but it will be doable.


http://www.clubskill.com/downloads/Kingdom%20Hearts%20II/kingdomhearts2-16.jpg
http://www.disney-fr.com/images-dessins-animes/Toy-Story/Toy-Story-3.jpg

wow, you're right, which one is which again?

Anthony1
05-03-2007, 11:43 PM
I've heard that many people that have seen Ratchet and Clank Future running in person, have said that in some ways it is actually approaching Toy Story visuals. I've seen the pics of Ratchet and Clank, and the game does look absolutely amazing, but I still don't think we are anywhere near Toy Story graphics. Maybe with PS4 and Xbox 3 we will actually get there, but not quite yet.

sabre2922
05-04-2007, 12:48 AM
I think both the Xbox360 and PS3 are fully capable of producing "toy story quality graphics".

then again im still amazed everytime I play RE4 on PS2 or Remake on Gamecube.

current/last gen still looks great to this old-time gamer.

veronica_marsfan
05-04-2007, 12:53 PM
wow, you're right, which one is which again?
I said KH on the PS3. You showed us a PS2. Wrong comparison.

Furthermore, you showed use Toy Story *2* whereas we were discussing the Original Toy Story (which is far more primitive in appearance). So again, you made a wrong comparison.


By the end of the PS3's life (2010 or so), we will see cartoon-style graphics equal to a VHS copy of Toy Story.

slip81
05-04-2007, 03:11 PM
actually you said KH was pretty darn close to Toy Story, meaning that at this current point in time you mean the original (or second) KH. You follewd it up with a port to the PS3 and 4 years might get us there.

But you first sentence implies that you think KH at it's current state is close to TH, which it clearly isn't. Heres a screen grab for comparisson:
http://albums.mouseplanet.com/MPPromotional/toy_story_10_1.jpg
still not even close

veronica_marsfan
05-05-2007, 04:20 AM
Yes.

(1) I think Kingdom Hearts (either 1 or 2) is *close* to Toy Story 1.

(2) By 2010, Kingdom Hearts on PS3 ought to look just as good as a VHS copy of Toy Story 1.

That's what I said, and I still hold that view.

Candycab
05-05-2007, 08:25 AM
Back around 2000 I read somewhere that the Lucas "Barn" render farm could do in 18 hours what it would take 5000 PIII 500's 5 years to do. [obviously thats old news at this point]

Im sure we are a long ways off from even getting 1/10th that sort of rendering in realtime out of any consumer device.

playgeneration
05-05-2007, 09:13 AM
Theres just no way that the PS3 is going to come even close to toy story quality visuals - unless you put the toy story movie DVD in it and play that.
When rendering out films like toy story, it doesnt have to be done in real time, unlike consoles where 30fps is the minimum required. And while editing the characters and environments for the film it will be done in wireframe or with basic textures etc, when the final renders are done they can use as many polygons, massive textures, lighting, reflections etc as they want. It will be long time before console developers wont have to even think about polygon count when designing games.

veronica_marsfan
05-06-2007, 06:28 AM
Do you think the PS3 or X360 could do an earlier CGI film, like the opening of Doctor Who 1987? Or the CGI effects in Last Starfighter? (Both of which are 1980s-technology and very, very primitive-looking.)
Back around 2000 I read somewhere that the Lucas "Barn" render farm ...
Not relevant, since Toy Story was rendered in 1994-95, not 2000. They used SparcStation's running around 60 megahertz. (For comparison the television show Babylon 5 used a 25 megahertz Commodore Amiga/68020.)

-A PS2 is ~300 megahertz.
-A PS3 is 3200 megahertz.
-Using simple math: A PS2 could render Toy Story 5 times faster than the original Sparcstations. A PS3 could render Toy Story approximately 50 times faster.

So if it took an hour of Sparc-processing to render each frame of Toy Story, a PS3 could do it in only 1 minute (approximately).

robotriot
05-06-2007, 07:45 AM
Uhm, you can't just see from how much MHz a CPU has how fast it's going to be, that's not the way it works, at all. The whole system architecture plays a major role.

And there's not only the polycount, but also lighting and shaders which are a part of CGI movies. A lot of surface materials can't be rendered in realtime yet.

Edit: According to this website (http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/banks/feb96/toystory.html), it took an average of 4 hours for 117 computers to render one frame. But even if we go by your calculation, of 1 frame per minute on the PS3: you'd need at least 30 per *second* for a game. And that's not within reach of current hardware.

njiska
05-06-2007, 08:51 AM
Uhm, you can't just see from how much MHz a CPU has how fast it's going to be, that's not the way it works, at all. The whole system architecture plays a major role.

And there's not only the polycount, but also lighting and shaders which are a part of CGI movies. A lot of surface materials can't be rendered in realtime yet.

Edit: According to this website (http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/banks/feb96/toystory.html), it took an average of 4 hours for 117 computers to render one frame. But even if we go by your calculation, of 1 frame per minute on the PS3: you'd need at least 30 per *second* for a game. And that's not within reach of current hardware.

Yes you're right about the MHz comparision being BS. I actually have a 400 MHZ SPARC Ultra5 on my desk and it in no way compares to a 400 MHz P2.

But there's another aspect people seem to be missing. In movies the clip is just straight rendered. In video games we employe a series of tricks to replicate the high quality effects with less processor power.

Gears of War was kind of the turning point for me in the whole "Toy Story" debate. In no way is it Toy Story quality, but it was a major graphical leap. The sheer power and efficenty of UE3 makes me think that we may actually see Toy Story graphics in the next generation.

Rob2600
05-07-2007, 05:54 PM
Gears of War was kind of the turning point for me in the whole "Toy Story" debate. In no way is it Toy Story quality, but it was a major graphical leap.

I felt the same way about a few different games, particularly Resident Evil 4 for the Game Cube: a major graphical leap.

People have to remember that in most 3D polygon video games, the player can change the camera angle on-the-fly and roam wherever they want to. That limits the amount of detail artists can put in each level.

If a game were on-rails and featured a static camera, then the graphics could be more detailed because the artists would have more control over what is being displayed on the screen at any given moment. For example, if you have a Nintendo 64 and a copy of Yoshi's Story, play through the first few levels. You'll see that the graphics are very sharp and detailed. In order to achieve that, the game had to be created in 2D.

Candycab
05-10-2007, 07:00 AM
Actually my comment would be irrelevant anyway since its wasnt animation they were rendering, [which I probably should have made clear] it was processing video frames at something like 2,000 x 2,200 resolution. Of course nothing can be based on mhz alone anymore since we all know that speed doesnt mean squat, it really is all about what exactly can you do with what you have and the tools that you use and the sub systems you move it around on, memory type, bandwith etc.

Anyway you shape it we wont be anywhere close to "Toy Story" rendering for a long time to come.

theshizzle3000
05-10-2007, 07:12 AM
I thought we were beyond toy story graphics, but I guess I was utterly wrong.

veronica_marsfan
05-21-2007, 09:37 AM
Repeating an earlier question:

Do you think the PS3 or X360 could do an earlier CGI film, like the opening of Doctor Who 1987? Or the CGI effects in Last Starfighter? (Both of which are 1980s-technology and very, very primitive-looking.)

Oobgarm
05-21-2007, 11:45 AM
Repeating an earlier question:

links to examples would be nice.

mregashu
05-21-2007, 12:47 PM
I think it will be hard to judge because when we reach that point, Toy Story's visuals will no longer be stunning. By the time games have Toy Story quality visuals, we will be wowed by the visuals of Shrek 9 (and the obvious Shrek-green Soylent Green food tie-in.) and having games that look like Toy Story won't seem quite as impressive.

For example, I went back and watched The Phantom Menace a while back, and was stunned at how mediocre the CGI looked compared to today. For a game to look like that (which I think is a LONG way off) won't be impressive in a broad sense - it will surely be the best looking game available but won't compare to the movies we are watching.

veronica_marsfan
05-21-2007, 02:11 PM
links to examples would be nice. You've never heard of Doctor Who 1987 or Last Starfighter? Okay. Well here's the CGI-opening for DW87: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCV4ES1lM4E

Do I think PS3 or X360 could do that 1987 CGI?
Yep!
Piece of cake.

Kejoriv
05-21-2007, 02:25 PM
veronica_marsfan - what the hell is your signature suppose to mean?

RugalSizzler
05-21-2007, 06:40 PM
Toy Story had poor graphics and we already have many games that can display ploygons and 3d at that level. You also have to remember the people behind Toy Story is the PIXAR who is probably the only well known and respected 3d animation studios in the western hemisphere besides Rareware.

The GCN can do Advent Children CGI animation well enough. In fact the Saturn and PSX can do Advent children to a scertain level of representation.

This question is completly pointless. I would be more happier to see a pre-rendered CGI game on the SNES or even the Genesis.

The problem with some people is that they completely forget too quickly how amazed and the feeling they got when they saw this and that.

When the Dreamcast appeared and people sawed the sports games they were like wow that is so realistic while some where like the N64 can do that also. While the N64 can do that also the Dreamcast just did it slightly better or even over kill.

People still think that Shenmue is amazing when the Shenmue is really a Saturn game and for crying out loud do you know how easy it is to render an Asian persons especially a Japanese persons face.


I thought the games we were playing now had "Toy Story" quality graphics. I guess I'm easily amused!

The more polygons a system can handle in one section of a screen the more realistic a circle shaped object can be. This means that there is no perfect circle and a circle is a certain amount of polygons.



still not even close

In 3d animation all you are doing is video taping the movement in one particular area of the enviorment. Like with the SIMS 2 or what they did with SouthPark WOW.

I doubt at any point they had a whole bunch of characters run towards ne section and we could see how realistic the back drop is. The truth is the back drop is not real so hot at all.

About that Owl from the Labyrinth or the

3d animation used in that electronic Killer movie
( the one where the baby sitter was shocked to death )

Can the PS3 do that which was from 1984 or even 1991. The answer is duh yes it can and so could earlier systems like the Saturn.

MarioMania
05-21-2007, 07:29 PM
Just wait and see what happened in 4 years from now

Just look at GoW2 on the PS2..Would someone say the PS2 could do that in 2001

veronica_marsfan
05-21-2007, 07:35 PM
The GCN can do Advent Children CGI animation well enough.

Nonsense. Show me even one single cube game that equals 2005's FF7-Advents Children in terms of visual quality. It. Does. Not. Exist. It's ridiculous to think a 2001 console could outdo a 2005 computer-generated movie.

RugalSizzler
05-21-2007, 07:37 PM
GOW polygons is like looking at N64 graphics but really really smooth.

half of your actions is automated and the game pulls out far away at times forcing you to view it in a small screen.

I mean come on I WILL KILL YOU CRATOS YOU WILL DIE and then OH YEAH CRATOS. This game is such White Trash that most Christians will eat up in a second. There is nothing mature about this game at all. It is super :bad-words:

Four years from now the USA is going to start looking like a retarded Russia if we don't act now.