Sonic & Mario: What the hell happened to these franchise

[Anthony1]

First off, let me say that I'm an absolute huge fan of both Sonic the Hedgehog, and Mario. Big time. I consider Super Mario World for the SNES to be quite possibly the best video game of all-time. (Well, that's my personal option, anyways) I consider the Genesis Sonics to all be very outstanding. Especially Sonic 2. I also really liked Sonic 3. Of course Sonic 1 and Sonic CD were both classic games as well. Super Mario 64 was an incredible game that blew everything out of the water when it first came out. It basically paved the way for all 3-D platform games that followed.

So having said all of that, I'm a huge, huge fan of both Mario and Sonic. However, I feel that both franchises have basically fallen away by the wayside. Mario Sunshine to me was a huge, huge dissapointment. Not that it was a horrible game, but I just felt that the game was a N64 game. Kindof like a Super Mario 64 1.5 if you will. It wasn't the watershed Mario game that came with every new generation.

As for Sonic, I've been dissapointed with the Sonic games as well. To me the whole concept behind Sonic just doesn't work very good in 3D. Sonic Adventures on the Dreamcast was a very solid game, but it just wasn't the type of Sonic that I've come to know and love.

Oh, while we are on the subject of Mario and Sonic.....What the hell happened to Crash Bandicoot? I know that Naughty Dog is no longer involved with Crash, but still.

[buttasuperb]

Every Sonic and Mario game in 3D is crap, IMO.

Nintendo, when are we gonna see a new 2D Mario game on GBA?

[ubersaurus]

Every Sonic and Mario game in 3D is crap, IMO.

Nintendo, when are we gonna see a new 2D Mario game on GBA?

Mario & Luigi :P

[Arqueologia_Digital]

Maybe i´m a very classic guy, but i miss the classic stages full of brilliant collors of the Sonic series and the strange worlds of Mario...i think that the 3D platform games are a shit, like the 3D fight games (Street Fighter EX sucks)
What do you think?

[Anthony1]

Every Sonic and Mario game in 3D is crap, IMO.

Nintendo, when are we gonna see a new 2D Mario game on GBA?



Super Mario 64 was a 3D game, the first "truly" 3D platform game of it's type, and it definitely wasn't crap. Sure, I would much rather play the 2D Mario's then Super Mario 64, but that's just because classic 2D holds up much better over time then the first 3D games.

But still Super Mario 64 was a huge, monsterous, watershed of a game when it first hit. I remember playing it virtually non stop for like 4 months. It completely carried the N64's future on it's back for that first year.

[Classicgamesdepot]

How is paper mario? Iv kept around an n64 for the sole purpose of one day finally playing this game.. is it anything remotely like a real sequal to mario rpg? someone convince me to play this game.. hehe

[udisi]

I don't know if any of you have played super smash Bros Melee, but in adventure mode you kinda play a classic 2D mario game with 3D background...I think It would be sweet to keep with that idea and make a new mario game. It would so rock, but still feel like the classic mario games.

[Packerfan66]

Mario 64 is still a great game to play. I don't care how many people say the game looks outdated. Super Mario Sunshine I agree was a let down. It needed more bosses, change what the levels looked like and different things to do on each level. Doing the same mission over and over for each stage gets boring. Anyone wonder if Mario Sunshine was Nintendo's version of a rush job? It needed some extra missions and bosses but since they needed another must own game for the system to compete with Sony and Microsoft they figured it was good enough to put out. I'm sure I'm the only one who feels this way.

[Ed Oscuro]

Super Mario 64 was a 3D game, the first "truly" 3D platform game of it's type, and it definitely wasn't crap. Sure, I would much rather play the 2D Mario's then Super Mario 64, but that's just because classic 2D holds up much better over time then the first 3D games.

But still Super Mario 64 was a huge, monsterous, watershed of a game when it first hit. I remember playing it virtually non stop for like 4 months. It completely carried the N64's future on it's back for that first year.

I'm almost completely with you there, Anthony (probably will be 100% when I check out some of the classic Mario games...it's been, um, about a decade since I even really looked at SMW on the SNES, and I wasn't even playing it!)

I liked Super Mario 64, and indeed it had some "wicked kewl grafix features" like the neverending stairway (got nothin' on the warping, twisting corridor in Zelda 64's Temple of Time, though) you need to "unlock." This game was a bunch of fun, and the nice graphics on everything keep me from thinking "OMG what a low poly 3DO M2 type menace!" My personal favorite would be the snow levels.

It has nothing on the Nintendo 64 Zelda games, unfortunately. Nuttin. The cheesy "teh w0rld = floates!" approach to level design lead to my learning a bit about platforming in a 3D world, but upon reflection I realize that Crash Bandicoot owned this game in many ways (except for the free-roaming fun to be had in SM64).

To add insult to injury, I'd heard (probably a silly rumor) that Super Mario 64 only used a fraction of the N64's graphical capabilities (30% was the rumor...hmm?) It's really not important if that little factoid would be true or false, though -- the game is most certainly a first generation game. Sure, take Metal Mario and you're already doing much better than those Legend of Zelda 64 screenshots from '95 that I posted, but there's no doubt that this is a low poly game with little in the way of complex background processing.

On the good side: Flying, very colorful use of...erm, coloured textures, quite decent music, and nice little puzzles.

Now, 3D Sonic games? Erm.

[IntvGene]

I hate to say it, but I have no idea why people think that these characters should have any life left in them? I never really found either of them that appealing that I would go out and buy every single game they appeared in till the end of time.

Sure, they had their days, and I definitely didn't enjoy their 3-d games much, but what is so enduring about a blue hedgehog and a plumber in overalls? Besides Mario's terrible Italian accent.

[scooterb23]

I'm with Butta...3D Mario & Sonic 100% bad.

Mario 64 doesn't look that bad...it's just no damn fun.

[badinsults]

I disagree with people who say that Mario Sunshine is "Super Mario 64 1.5" and such. If Mario Sunshine had identical gameplay to Mario 64, just different levels, it would be a must own. The water pack on Mario Sunshine just ruined it.

[Red Warrior]

Mario and Sonic games will never work in 3D. It's just not possible. Although I must admit I did enjoy playing Mario 64 and, to a lesser extent, Sunshine. However, they just weren't true Mario games. They didn't have the look and feel of Mario games, so that was truly disappointing. What does Miyamoto have against the Mushroom Kingdom and classic powerups like the fire flower, cape, and racoon leaf anyway? The 3D "mario" games would've been infinitely better if they would've just concentrated on what made the other Mario games good... like cool powerups, block breaking, and secrets galore. Instead, we got stupid caps and a big hose. Whoopdie-freakin-do... :roll:

Even so, 2D is the only true way to make a Mario or Sonic game.

[Ze_ro]

Mario Sunshine to me was a huge, huge dissapointment. Not that it was a horrible game, but I just felt that the game was a N64 game. Kindof like a Super Mario 64 1.5 if you will. It wasn't the watershed Mario game that came with every new generation.

I don't get it... what did you expect from it? Super Mario 64 got things right the first time, so there really wasn't anything to add. Did you really expect Super Mario Sunshine to be a quantum leap over Mario 64 the way Mario 64 was over the 2D games? Aside from adding powerups (which they did with the water pack) and enhancing the sound and graphics (which they did), what would you have had them do?

I really liked Mario Sunshine myself... I thought the levels were very good, the objectives were interesting, and the graphics were excellent. The only things I didn't like about it were that the water pack was kind of gimmicky (it should have been a powerup that you only got from time to time), and the Delfino island inhabitants were kind of lame looking.

I think everyone was just expecting this game to be the second coming of Jesus or something, and got their hopes up WAY too high.

As for Sonic... I didn't much care for the Sonic Adventure games either. With 3D worlds, I like to be able to explore them, but the inherent speed of Sonic games is sort of incompatible with that. I did finish Sonic Adventure though (only with half of the characters). From what I played of the Sonic Heroes demo, I wasn't impressed.

--Zero

[swlovinist]

Let's face it, the Mario Franchise is tired.....I agree that Super Mario Sunshine(although not a bad game at all, really showed that the Mario Franchise is tired....and out of ideas) After all the endless sequels, ports and remakes...what else is left that hasnt been done before? I love the quality of Nintendo games and stand behind thier staples....but even I have to face the facts that they have relied too much on their old glory figures and have not produced enough mainstream games that were original.
Sega........*sigh*.........I loved your Genesis days, but what the HELL???? Your direction of your marketing/game ideas COMPLETELY BAFFLE ME! Its like the company has all this rich history, and yet they so easily have screwed it up! Another franchise that is tired, but unlike mario, has not had a good game in a while worth noting. I think it is time to have Sonic retired...if Sonic Heroes is the best they can come up with. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :angry:

[YoshiM]

I think doing anything with the Mario or Zelda series is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type situation. If you try to keep true to the series and not make changes (kinda like what they did with Mario 1-4, the GB games, etc.) then one group says "it's all the same". When you tweak the series to have something "new" to it (like the F.L.U.D.D. in SMS or the water theme in Wind Waker) you've got another big group with torches and pitchforks screaming heresy. What's a developer to do?

The NES and SMS Super Mario series did it "right" and so did SM64. Each sequel was still the same ol' Mario but it retained the great game play magic, had enough of a graphical upgrade and eased in a few new abilities, levels and enemies with each game. In SMB 1 we got the fire flower and the mushroom. In SMB 2 we lost the flower but gained the ability to carry objects and use them as weapons (we also had the varying abilities of the characters but that got dropped later on). In SMB 3 we regained the ability to use the fire flower but now we can fly, swim better, have an inventory AND carry objects to use as weapons. See the pattern? The games are all the same pretty much but with each sequel it was still "new" and they rose the bar that all had to meet or exceed to get recognized. In the case of SM64 it rung in the new age of 3D. Tight control, decent power ups and familiarity that put this game in the history books.

IMO Nintendo seemed to hit a road block with the Gamecube. To me they aren't really "raising the bar" anymore. With a Mario game I never had the feeling of "been there, done that". Sunshine was the first. I played this game before, it was called Banjo Kazooie. Sentient sidekick strapped to back? Check. Sidekick can fire projectiles? Check. Sidekick can allow hovering and flight (with right circumstances)? Check. Object is to find powerful object hidden somewhere in a level? Check (BK had jiggies, SMS had Shines, though BK DID steal the idea from SM64 but still...). SMS really didn't bring anything new to the table this time and in some regards took a step BACK (like not having differing environments). As for the other franchises-they are all pretty much graphical updates to N64 games, a trait I thought was typically found with a PS1/PS2 publisher or from a Madden game. Wind Waker did escape this fate but was marred by stupid level design (the ocean) that bogged down the experience coupled with a low difficulty factor.

To gain back their thunder Nintendo has to ride that line that they rode way back in the beginning. Keep enough of the old school goodness in to appease the veterans but have enough flash and new stuff to keep everyone happy. Balance, Grasshopper. It worked since '85 and it can work today.

[Raccoon Lad]

Just call him ROBOTNIK again, and I might buy a new Sonic game.


...eggman, bleh.

[NintendoMan]

To everyone saying the plumber is getting old, the hell with you. :evil:
Just kidding! But I couldn't disagree more! I sort of know what the people mean when they say mario sunshine is kind of like mario 64. But what do you expect. Once everything is in 3D, not too many things are going to change. And for the people that say the Old mario games are alot more fun, most of you guys probably played them when you were alot younger and just have alot of memories about them, as do I. But you can't diss the new mario games. I mean, they are in 3D, but at least I in my opinion, Mario 64 is on my top 5 list, and mario sunshine yes did not do the best job but I did have fun playing that game! Though it could have been better, I still have no complaints.
And for the people playing the old Sonic games, saying Sega needs to go back to the old days, well there doing better than that. The new games are 20 times faster. And just think, in the old genesis one, all you did was just go in a straight line to the end of the game. That's what you do in Sonic Heroes!! So stop complaining, LOL
Yeah, I could but won't say the games could be better, espcially Sonic, but I won't. I do hope the New mario that comes out is better though. If your a Nintendo person, with a love for certain games, like Mario, they are not getting tired at all, just better with age!!

[Dr. Morbis]

I call this argument "mega man syndrome". What was different between MM1 and MM6? By and large, nothing but level design and new power-ups. Like someone else mentioned, it's a cache-22 for developers: staples vs. innovation. If a new mario came out on GBA that was Mario 3 exactly, BUT with entirely different levels and worlds, it would be heralded as "the second coming of Jesus". I think what most people want is new level design, but within the parameters of the old game's engine. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

The Mega man series is considered classic despite the fact that it is veeeery stale. What's a developer to do?

[EnemyZero]

all i need to say is...i LOVE 2D gaming..unfortunately now adays unless you own a NeoGeo and even still with it..most 2D gaming is all fighters...I think some games are best left 2D....if mario and sonic were still in 2D ...id be happy...not that 3Dizing these series is a bad thing..i like mario64 and sonic adventure..but...still id rather play them in original form..some games ::cough:: contra :: cough:: and a few others are just meant to stay 2D

[zmweasel]

N/A

[Nature Boy]

I wonder if Mario is still the icon he was 20 years ago? Remember when they said he was more recognizable than Mickey Mouse? Is that still true?

I really wish Sega would do something with Sonic other than trying to make Sonic 1-3 in 3D. IMO, if they want to go 3D with him, they need to figure out a way to fit him into another style of game. The Sonic brand speed platforming just doesn't work (yet, maybe ever) in 3D.

Having said that I have no idea how Sonic Heroes is.

Mario I'm not as disappointed in. Mario 64 (and Sunshine) take platforming into 3D well enough. Sunshine wasn't enough of an innovation to wow over but it wasn't the worst game I've ever played either. And Double Dash is still a game I'll definitely pick up. The only Sonic game I'm looking at right now is that "Mega Collection"

[kainemaxwell]

3D = treasure hunting.

[Jorpho]

I wonder if Mario is still the icon he was 20 years ago? Remember when they said he was more recognizable than Mickey Mouse? Is that still true?

My reply to that has always been, "What has Mickey Mouse done lately?" Aside from dodge copyright laws, that is.

(Actually, the Oscar-nominated "Runaway Brain" short from many years ago was pretty cool, but how many people have heard of that?)

[NintendoMan]

I wonder if Mario is still the icon he was 20 years ago? Remember when they said he was more recognizable than Mickey Mouse? Is that still true?

I really wish Sega would do something with Sonic other than trying to make Sonic 1-3 in 3D. IMO, if they want to go 3D with him, they need to figure out a way to fit him into another style of game. The Sonic brand speed platforming just doesn't work (yet, maybe ever) in 3D.

Having said that I have no idea how Sonic Heroes is.

Mario I'm not as disappointed in. Mario 64 (and Sunshine) take platforming into 3D well enough. Sunshine wasn't enough of an innovation to wow over but it wasn't the worst game I've ever played either. And Double Dash is still a game I'll definitely pick up. The only Sonic game I'm looking at right now is that "Mega Collection"

Yeah, I am looking forward greatly to the Mega Man collection for gamecube, and Mega Man Mania for GBA!!

[Red Warrior]

3D = treasure hunting.

You just said everything I wanted to say by using a simple math equation. BRILLIANT!

3D games are treasure hunters.... whereas 2D games require actual skill. I've yet to play a 3D platformer that required anything more than alotta time on my hands to beat it. That's why 3D mario games will never work for me. You might add the element of treasure hunting, but, at the same time, you take away the skill and gameplay that made the old 2D mario games great. That's a bad trade, IMO.

[RCM]

ZMweasel wrote

No question that Sonic is a has-been, but Mario remains Nintendo's bread-and-butter ethnic stereotype; the #1 and #2 best-selling games for December, on both the GameCube and GBA, had "Mario" in the title.

I totally disagree that Sonic is a has-been. From a sales standpoint, they wouldn't keep making Sonic titles just for nostalgia. While the Sonic brand is clearly not as strong or accepted as it once was, the Sonic series is still a force in the industry. Sonic Advance was a top selling title for the GBA. The Sonic Adventure series sold millions of copies worldwide.

Sonic Advance 2 is brilliant, a great step in the evolution of 2D Sonic titles. Any oldschool Sonic fan waiting for the "next generation" Sonic? This is the place to go (as far as NG 2D gameplay to be perfectly clear).

The Sonic Adventure series has it's faults. No question about that. But there is one thing in each game that makes it worth coming back to play: Sonic. His Actions stages are often incredible platform experiences. Some of the best 3D experiences Ive ever had.

Sonic Heros has been pretty crazy so far as well. Team Sonics portions are well done. The boss battles are a cut above the Adventure series.

I still prefer the 2D Sonic, but the 3D Sonic is great too. As for my italian-american friend Mario, he hasn't lost anything, except huge sales for Sunshine. I think Super Mario 64 was a great title. It had its faults that just about everyone (as in game critics) unfairly overlooked. It was still a great experience though. I wish Mr. Miyamoto would focus on something a little more straight forward next time rather then trying to reinvent the wheel. I found that the greatest parts in Sunshine was when Mario lost the water pack and darted into platform heaven. I also hope next time around that Marios jumping ability is tightened up. I never thought it was on par with his 2D form.

I think Marios 2D titles are among the best that have ever been offered. I even liked Mario 2 a lot. I know it wasn't a true Mario game, but it was fun as hell. I wonder how many other great games are out there. THey should put Mario or Sonic in everything to find out!

Mario and Sonic are not going downhill. They still star in great titles. They will continue to. I have to go, I must beat Sonic Heros! Pick it up!

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM