Final Fantasy: An exercise in frustration

[hezeuschrist]

I've come to the conclusion that I'm rather glad I never played the original Final Fantasy through to it's end. Back in my days as a youngin, I got to the second feind and gave up, many times.

Recently, as my signature denotes, I've tried to go back and finally beat the game... but due to random battles EVERY TWO FREAKING STEPS, the theif being a total douchebag, and the incredible expensiveness of all the basic items (god forbid your entire party get poisoned), I've decided to shelve it for good.

That was, by far, the most frustrating 3 or 4 hours of my gaming life, and I will never repeat them. Maybe it's just the PS version that has absolutely insane random battles, as I don't remember the original all too well. I don't own a nintendo, and don't plan on owning one anytime soon so I can't go back to the cart... but, argh. ARGH.

Please tell me the second game on that disc is much less frustrating.

[SoulBlazer]

Final Fantasy always holds a special place in my heart, as it was the second console RPG I ever played (the first being Dragon Warrior). I can still recall tearing through it in two weeks just when it came out at the tender age of 14. :)

I bought the remake when it came out last year and played through it again. It's still fun to play. No, the battle frequency or anything else was changed. Normal mode in the PS game is just like it was for the NES game.

Why are you usuing a thief, though? Stick to the basic party of fighter, black mage, white mage, and monk. Have the white mage learn the anti-antiode spell as soon as possible so you can save on money. Yes, you often DO need to level up in this game -- always keep your party up to date with the newest and best equipment and at least 50 of the healing and antiode potions.

Don't push ahead too much. Head back to town as soon as your magic runs low or hit points run almost out. Use that quick save function they added to the PSX version every few battles so you never lose your work.

Just have patience. Final Fantasy is not the be all, end all game that it was back in 1990 -- it ranks pretty far down my list, actually -- but it's still quite fun to play.

FF 2? TOTALLY different. You don't gain levels in that one -- you earn abilities based on what your party members do, and there are more classes to pick from. Plus I think there are less battles in that one.

[ubersaurus]

I always maintained that the original final fantasy was crap. The random battles aside, the battle engine itself is boring, the game is slow paced, and yes, everything is high priced. You can't even say its good for its time-Phantasy Star and Dragon Warrior 1 & 2 were both around then too.

[SoulBlazer]

Pay no need to the unbelivers sprouting hearesy. ;)

Dragon Warrior was a series I liked back in the day, but I hated 7. And Phantasy Star is fun, yes.....but it's a game I never PLAYED back then. Did'nt play it the first time until a few years ago.

[hezeuschrist]

I went with theif because they gave me a theif. I don't remember ever using a monk, I thought I always used a theif... guess I was wrong.

Maybe someday I'll come back to it, but notime soon, let me tell you. I did however pop in Shadow of Destiny, and I can see myself waning away the hours with that tonight. Creepy idea for a game... you die, are ressurrected, then you have to go back and not die. Over and over. If I were this guy i'd be pissed I keep getting killed.

[Ze_ro]

Forget Final Fantasy... go play Ultima 3, 4, or 5 instead. They're much better (Well, maybe not the NES versions... play them on a C-64, Amiga or PC instead). I don't even understand how Final Fantasy 1 was popular enough to start all this nonsense anyways.

--Zero

[WiseSalesman]

The NES Ultima games are, and were, crap. I've never been able to get even a minute of enjoyment out of them. I enjoy Final Fantasy very much. I'm not going to speak to your complaints, as I doubt I could change your mind, but I will say that I think the random encounter rate in, say, FFX is much, much higher than it was in FF1. i find it much more annoying.

[Sotenga]

I remember that I once owned the original FF when I was four. Garland kept kicking my ass. Yes, Garland knocked us ALL down several times. :roll:

So, I sold it. I was too dumb, couldn't figure out the battle engine. Several years later, I manage to track down another copy, and I beat Garland. I then went on to beat the game. FF1 is still a classic, even though there are only so many RPG's that can exceed it today. However, RPG's aren't my forte, so I can't tell you which ones are better, except for Super Mario RPG, Earthbound, Phantasy Star, and every other Final Fantasy game. :D

[kainemaxwell]

I never understood the Ultima games myself.

Final Fantasy was my first rpg and still holds a place to me to this day. Sure it's a total pain in the ass, especially after fighting Astos and having to fight your way back OUT of his damn castle and to Elfland, but that's just me.

Thief's better in 8-bit Theater though. :P

[MoreEbolaForYou]

i don't know, i pretty much loved ultima quest of the avatar on the nes. even beat it, i think i was probably between 10-12 then. i even got pretty into ultima exodus. i was so into rpgs that even though that game utterly sucked balls, i still played it all the time. i think i made it pretty far too.

the easiest way to destroy at final fantasy is just to have two fighters, white mage, and a black mage. i think i beat it once using a red mage, a white mage, and two black mages before though. talk about having to kill your enemies fast, or dying all the time.

[kainemaxwell]

Don't forget in FF you gotta balance alot of costs for equipment and buying magics between your party.

[Packerfan66]

I absolutely love the first Final Fantasy for the NES. I like it much more then Dragon Warrior 1 which got me into RPG's. I think sometimes you have to play certain games when they come out to enjoy them more. I've played the rest of the Dragon Warriors and Phantasy Star and I have to say they are very boring and I just can't get into them. I think that's just because I never got to enjoy them the first time around and compare them with was out at the time.

[kainemaxwell]

Dragon Warrior's like D&D moreso, but that's me.

[SoulBlazer]

Well, I've allready posted my advice, but the last comment I'll make is to put it aside for a while, and then come back to it and work slowly through it.

At least you put down a good game for a GREAT game. Shadow of Destiny rocks, and is one of my favorite adventure games. I've been saying since the game came out how underrated and wonderfull it is, with a original idea and plot, nice action, and multipule endings. If you need any help with THAT, start a new topic and I'll be glad to. ;)

(Does'nt matter if you have the PS2 or PC version -- they play the same.)

[kainemaxwell]

What's Shadow of Destiny like?

[hezeuschrist]

Maybe I'll start over and put in a Monk instead of a theif. Maybe that'll make the game more playable.

[kainemaxwell]

Last time I really played and had a copy of FF, I was doing the Fighter/Thief/WM, BM combination (Have'n beaten it once before with the usual Fighter, Monk, WM, BM combo).

[Sylentwulf]

<shrug> I loved the first 2 Final Fantasy games (1&2jp)

They were....wait for it....here it comes..... almost.....CHALLENGING.

I specfically remember having to actually spend 15-20 minutes levelling in order to beat a boss. GOD FORBID.

The only other games that ever had any sort of CHALLENGE were the dragon warrior series (probably superior overall, but since there were 4 NES ones, and one PS one, it's kinda hard to judge. And no, I won't play an rpg in japanese, that's stupid.)

Dragon Warrior 7, I had to level up once, and that was the last game I needed to.
Final Fantasy X-2 gives you the charm bangle towards the very beginning of the game - no random battles at all. I practically used it all the way up until chapter 5 and STILL didn't have to level my characters up. it was challenging, sure, but probably due to lack of battle system experience more than anything else :)

[hezeuschrist]

<shrug> I loved the first 2 Final Fantasy games (1&2jp)

They were....wait for it....here it comes..... almost.....CHALLENGING.

I specfically remember having to actually spend 15-20 minutes levelling in order to beat a boss. GOD FORBID.

The only other games that ever had any sort of CHALLENGE were the dragon warrior series (probably superior overall, but since there were 4 NES ones, and one PS one, it's kinda hard to judge. And no, I won't play an rpg in japanese, that's stupid.)

Dragon Warrior 7, I had to level up once, and that was the last game I needed to.
Final Fantasy X-2 gives you the charm bangle towards the very beginning of the game - no random battles at all. I practically used it all the way up until chapter 5 and STILL didn't have to level my characters up. it was challenging, sure, but probably due to lack of battle system experience more than anything else :)

That's not challenge, that's a timesink. That's not entertaining or fun, it's stupid. Anyone can run around and level up to stupid degrees, always have the best weapons and armor. That's not a challenge, that's just taking time to know you're going to slaughter whatever boss.

I'm not even to the marsh cave yet and it's just beyond frustrating. If I get in 7.2 million random battles on the way to the cave, then I have to sit around another 15-20 minutes just to be able to kill a boss? Repetition in the worst way. Modern RPG's make the battles quick and enjoyable, and for the most part are spaced out enough to not be absolutely hair pulling. Everyone of my characters in this game misses 3 of 4 attacks, thus random battles themselves take a good 5 minutes. Stupid. Not to mention the control of the remake blows asshole (yes, it's possible for an RPG to have crappy control).

Now, I understand this is an old game, and it may not have aged well, but they could have done so many things to update the new version... cut down random battles for one, christ, thats my biggest gripe. I've got about 4000 steps in the game right now, lets assume 3000 of those are in town... that means I've been in about 500 'random' battles in 3 hours. Retarded.

[Stamp Mcfury]

I'm not even to the marsh cave yet and it's just beyond frustrating. If I get in 7.2 million random battles on the way to the cave, then I have to sit around another 15-20 minutes just to be able to kill a boss? Repetition in the worst way. Modern RPG's make the battles quick and enjoyable, and for the most part are spaced out enough to not be absolutely hair pulling. Everyone of my characters in this game misses 3 of 4 attacks, thus random battles themselves take a good 5 minutes. Stupid. Not to mention the control of the remake blows asshole (yes, it's possible for an RPG to have crappy control).

[/quote]

Well FF1's random encounter rate seem to be the same as most other 8-16bit rpg's I've played. I have not played the PS1 remake of it however. Now play the game like Vay for the Sega CD. that gane had the worst random encounter rate I've ever seen in a RPG.

Yeah the game was just a time sink most rpgs have and still are "FFXI, Everquest, Final Fantasy7,8 ect. Some people will play them to get through them as fast as possible some will play to level them as high as possible. The only FF game i've played were you don't run around outside town for hours to gain ep was Final Fantasy Tactics

[AB Positive]

You know, it may be me, but I've never died playing FF1. Really, never died at all. Came close a LOT of times the many times I've played it but no deaths. The trick is not necessarily "Use this group" as much as use the group that you can best strategize with. Some people use monks, I've never strayed from my Warrior, Red Mage, Black Mage, White mage combo.

It's a quirky game with a lot of charm. It's not the greatest in the series, but I enjoyed it more than FF VIII.

-AG

[hezeuschrist]

The dying part isn't frustrating. Ok, I died, rethink and try again. I have no problem with that, infact I like it in any kind of game where I just played the piece poorly, and by doing something different or just playing better I can get past it. That's great, THAT's challenge. Just getting destroyed, then leveling up and winning isn't challenge, just time spent.

But, when i die and I have to go through 18 billion random battles to get back to where I was, pass. Not to mention trying to escape from a battle in that game is about as worthwile as explaining color to a blind person.

[SoulBlazer]

That's why you use the memo save a lot. :D

FFT? Yes, I enjoyed that game, but that game holds the record for me for the longest time EVER spent on it. It took FOREVER to get my levels up to what was suggested. By the time I beat the game, I had 110 hours in it.

Compare that to most Final Fantasy games, where the average is about 30-40 hours.

[Spoony Bard]

If you think having a Monk will help you, make sure you know what he can do. Once you get to level 10, start de-equiping all his weapons and armor, and check if his stats actually go up. Monk is strongest when unarmed.

And Thief becomes GODLY after class change.

BTW, I only had to level once in that game, and that was the obligitory I'm at Elfland so I better fight Ogres for 2 hours now period.

[Dangerboy]

Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's just the FF Origins disc inside a PS2 (the random generator stuff gets FUBAR'ed inside the PS2) but I swear, FF Origin's random battles are a LOT worse than the NES Version. I have never played FFO on a PSX, so I can't compare notes, but I *know* they weren't that bad originally.

It also seemed to be a specific glitch...if I recall correctly, going in perfectly straight lines brought on a few battles, but if you changed directions a lot, especially trying to walk diagonally, you get whomped.

I used to waltz right through the NES version, no real problems, but on the PS2 I died twice before even getting to Motoya's cave O_O

If you've never seen the 'Random Generator' glitch in action, slap Brunswick Bowling in the PS2. On the PSX. It loads in a second. On the PS2, it can take up to a minute+ between frames. Them pin physics are just to much for the poor PS2 LOL

[Sylentwulf]

That's not challenge, that's a timesink. That's not entertaining or fun, it's stupid. Anyone can run around and level up to stupid degrees, always have the best weapons and armor. That's not a challenge, that's just taking time to know you're going to slaughter whatever boss.

I'm not even to the marsh cave yet and it's just beyond frustrating. If I get in 7.2 million random battles on the way to the cave, then I have to sit around another 15-20 minutes just to be able to kill a boss? Repetition in the worst way. Modern RPG's make the battles quick and enjoyable, and for the most part are spaced out enough to not be absolutely hair pulling. Everyone of my characters in this game misses 3 of 4 attacks, thus random battles themselves take a good 5 minutes. Stupid. Not to mention the control of the remake blows asshole (yes, it's possible for an RPG to have crappy control).

Now, I understand this is an old game, and it may not have aged well, but they could have done so many things to update the new version... cut down random battles for one, christ, thats my biggest gripe. I've got about 4000 steps in the game right now, lets assume 3000 of those are in town... that means I've been in about 500 'random' battles in 3 hours. Retarded.

Modern RPG's are INTERACTIVE MOVIES with a battle system thrown in. Don't get me wrong, I still love em and play em, but the final fantasy series is the biggest offender, and the series we're discussing here. It's COMPLETELY possible to play final fantasy one without leveling up exercises (levelling for the purpose of levelling).

Modern RPG's are too easy, what am I supposed to do? I can't MAKE it harder. Classic RPG's had the option of rushing the boss at a low level and trying to rely on your skill. Modern RPGS have the option of.... Running away from battles a lot to try and keep your level low? Friggin lame.

What would be the perfect solution IMO? A easy/hard difficuly setting (also known as the japanese/americanized version) The...not so talented players can pick easy, while those who know how to play can pick hard. Simple solution that will never happen.

[Sylentwulf]

Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's just the FF Origins disc inside a PS2 (the random generator stuff gets FUBAR'ed inside the PS2) but I swear, FF Origin's random battles are a LOT worse than the NES Version. I have never played FFO on a PSX, so I can't compare notes, but I *know* they weren't that bad originally.


Actually, I thought there were LESS random battles in the origins version. I haven't compared either though, so god knows which of us is right :)

Here's food for thought - there was a proven bug in asherons call 1, that depending on what you named your character, monsters would be more prone to attack you. Maybe it's the same with FF1.....

[hezeuschrist]

Well, I beat Shadow of Destiny, so maybe I'll give this another shot.

As for modern RPG's being too easy, I completely agree. Most of them are, especially Final Fantasy... christ, I destroyed the end boss of FFX-2 in under a minute. But I just finished Suikoden 3 and I had a hell of a time beating one of the final 3 battles, tried it 4 times, and when I finally beat him I only had one character left who was surviving on pure luck. That's challenge, that's what I like. Then theres games like Wind Waker that I never died in.

In general, it's near impossible for an RPG to be that perfect difficulty. Just enough random battles to get you to be able to beat the boss, but not too many that the boss fights become easy. But the random battles in this game are going to drive me up a wall.

[calthaer]

I'm not so sure it would be impossible for RPGs to have that "perfect difficulty." Most console "RPGs" especially are usually mere statistical-acquisition games, where you run around collecting experience. While solutions like FF8's (i.e. - scale all monsters in the whole game based on party level) is probably not the best, it's probably not that difficult to work up some formula with some trial & error to make a game "easy," "medium," "hard," etc. Create several sets of numbers to use, some are more difficult, some less, with some formulas to scale difficulty within the game so that players are always challenged without having to level-up a million times.

Just work up some AI bots to serve as players (they would probably do just as well as play-testers), run it through a few hundred iterations, and look at the results. The games require almost no creative thinking - always "attack," heal magic or items when health gets low, combo when your limit break gets up there, use summons if you want the fight to be over quickly, etc.

[Sylentwulf]

Ahh yes Suikoden III's final boss, THAT was fairly difficult, I'll agree with ya there :)

As for the difficulty rating. To ME, it's always seemed like a very simple solution. Make the game too hard for ANYONE. The worse of a player you are, the more you have to level up. That makes it the perfect difficulty for everyone.
If you REALLY SUCK, and you hate levelling up, then RPG's OBVIOUSLY aren't for you anyways, so get the hell out and let those of us who enjoy them play it :)

[TheRedEye]

They were....wait for it....here it comes..... almost.....CHALLENGING.

I specfically remember having to actually spend 15-20 minutes levelling in order to beat a boss. GOD FORBID.

The only other games that ever had any sort of CHALLENGE were the dragon warrior series (probably superior overall, but since there were 4 NES ones, and one PS one, it's kinda hard to judge. And no, I won't play an rpg in japanese, that's stupid.)

We need a copy of Phantasy Star II over here, STAT.

[Sylentwulf]

We need a copy of Phantasy Star II over here, STAT.

Unfortunately, I was VERY lucky to even have a nintendo growing up. The earliest Sega system I owned was a saturn, and that was 2 years after it's release :)

[Dangerboy]

We need a copy of Phantasy Star II over here, STAT.


LOL

I FEAR that game. Seriously. No human should be forced to endure that game.

And this is coming from someone who just sat through a River Hill J.B Murder Mystery, 100% completion.

[SoulBlazer]

Phantasy Star 2! Oh God! (shudder)

Don't get me wrong, I liked the game, but if you want to talk about a game that has a high encounter rate and long borring periods of needing to level up -- THAT is the poster child game! :) I had to cheat just to get my levels up high enough just so that I could finish!

And there are other games I can think off that have higher encounter rates then FF1 -- I just finished Lagaia 2 and I'd say that's one. The Wild Arms games, also.

I did some testing eariler today and it really does'nt seem like the encounter rate is any higher for NES vs PSX for FF1. And I've never heard of a random generator bug either.

Oh, the end boss for Suikoden III was hard -- but I still say one of the hardest bosses of ALL TIME was trying to defeat Luca in Suikoden 2! x_x

[hezeuschrist]

The Suikoden games, to me, always have found the kind of 'sweet spot' in RPG difficulty. I can't say I remember the first one all too well, but I played II this time last year and I just beat III a couple weeks ago, so they're still fresh in my mind.

The Luca fight kicked ass. It was great. I didn't have the option to go out and level up, I could just change my party around everytime I died and try a new strategy. That's what made them such great games, a billion ways to play it without any one way being overwhelmingly powerful (except the mounted characters in 3... way overpowered).

But anyways, I went back to FF and leveled up, beat astos and and got all the Mystic Key chests around the world, now I'm ready to move on. After going through the marsh cave, it seems the random encounter rate is pretty much par for the course in dungeons, but on the world map it's still way too high.

[SoulBlazer]

Oh, why you did'nt say the Marsh cave? :) That IS the nastiest and cheapest area in the game, IMHO. Now that you're through that, the difficulty and the encounter rate eases of some. Just keep your party healthy, spend your money carefully, and use that memo save. ;)

[KJN]

For those who wants to know this is how Final Fantasy 1 determines it's time for battle (from the FF1 'handbook' (http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff1/info/ff1_math.txt))


at the beginning of the previous combat, a random number x is generated wherex = (50..255). for each step taken

-outside on desert,plains,forest,marsh,river: decrement x by 6
-inside of a cave,or other monster lair: decrement x by 5
-outside on a ship: decrement x by 2
-on a damage square in a monster lair, in the airship, in a seaport, or inside: leave x alone

when x<0, battle begins. There are also certain map squares for which battle
always occurs. Entering a battle automatically in this way does not reset the
value of x. In general, x is reset whenever x becomes negative or when a game is begun or reloaded. x is not reset by entering a town or other inside-type area


One thing they should do to help increase the difficulty level in newer FF's is lower the effects of physical attacks and summoning spells and making magic more usefull, especially status altering spells since (especially towards the end) they tend to be to ineffective. Things like poison takes away so little hp it's not worth bothering asuming they hit because the monster will probably be dead the next round except if it is a boss where is usualy wont work at all.

[Sylentwulf]

Oh, why you did'nt say the Marsh cave? :) That IS the nastiest and cheapest area in the game, IMHO. Now that you're through that, the difficulty and the encounter rate eases of some. Just keep your party healthy, spend your money carefully, and use that memo save. ;)

Yeah, Marsh cave IS the hardest early on. The final dungeon getting past Tiamat, and getting the masamune can be a real bitch too on the NES version, since there is no handy dandy memo file.

Then there's that killer-mech-bad-hurt-you-till-you-scream-mommy-bridge-monster-thingy.
He's REAL evil.

[SoulBlazer]

Ah, you be talking about the WARMECH. The awsome one. The current avatar of Kid Fenris, I believe. :D

You can only meet one of those on the long bridge on the highest floor of the Sky Castle, home of Tiamat, the forth and final fiend. You only have a 1 in 64 chance of running into one, so not much to worry about.

Great bonuses if you beat one, but your party better be fully healthy and armed to the teeth. ;)

[Lady Jaye]

When you guys talk about how today's console RPGs are too easy, one thought came to my mind: why not play the Baldur's Gate series on PC or Mac? They're a lot more complex than the run-of-the-mill Final Fantasy games without giving the impression that all you do is walk around in order to gain experience/money so to be able to buy equipment and survive the next levels/story stages.

Don't get me wrong, I love RPGs in general. And I'm before anything else a console gamer, not a computer gamer. But I have to say that the computer BG series is quite something (actually Baldur's Gate II is so long that my friend Seb got sick and tired of it before he was done).

Anyway, the walk-around, till you move to the next level trend is typical of late 80s/early 90s RPGs (including Zelda II). You gotta either accept it as being part of the game (yes, even on the PSX remakes) or move on to a more modern game that plays in a more dynamic (or cinematic) way.

[farfel]

Modern RPG's are too easy, what am I supposed to do? I can't MAKE it harder....Running away from battles a lot to try and keep your level low? Friggin lame..

Final fantasy 10.. You get spheres but you can choose to not use them. Leave yourself weak.

Is Final Fantasy 3 - Japan worth playing?

[calthaer]

I have the ROM; PM me or contact me via IM and I can send it to you for you to decide for yourself. The gameplay is very similar to FF5j.

[kainemaxwell]

Modern RPG's are too easy, what am I supposed to do? I can't MAKE it harder....Running away from battles a lot to try and keep your level low? Friggin lame..

Final fantasy 10.. You get spheres but you can choose to not use them. Leave yourself weak.

Is Final Fantasy 3 - Japan worth playing?

Quite rewarding game, similar to ff5 and a large adventure.

[hezeuschrist]

Well, I'm cutting my way through the game rather nicely now, just got the class change and now I have a whole lot of spells to buy.

[SoulBlazer]

There you go. :D The game DOES get easier once you get the class change about mid way through the game, and I often will take the change before I go into the volcano to give me some extra strength. :)

I've always liked the music to this game, and I loved the enhanced versions so much I bought the soundtrack. At least that one was released in the States. :)