ROMs and backups: Are there ethical differences?

[Anthony1]

When it comes to roms of games, there doesn't seem to be this disdain, or frowning upon, in terms of people having roms of games that they don't own on their computers.

For whatever reason, people don't really seem to be very passionately against having Roms of games that you don't own on your PC.

But, when it comes to backups, there seems to be a much greater disdain, and frowning upon in the gaming community.

Why is that?

What really is the difference?


I think part of the reason is that when you are talking about Roms, for the most part you are talking about some pretty old games. (Well, not with the N64 or GBA games) So I think people have this take that because these games are extremely old, and on systems that are long since forgotten by the casual games and general public, that it's not a big deal. Plus for the most part people have to play these roms on their PC, running emulators. Of course there are people that have devices that let them play the Roms on the actual real system, but that's another story.

With Backups, it usually involves some of the more recent systems, like Dreamcast and Playstation, so there seems to be much more of a stigma with backups, that this is outright piracy.

With Roms, for some reason people don't seem to feel that it's outright piracy.

Here are some questions to answer:


1. Do you currently have Roms of games that you don't own?

2. Do you currently have Roms of games that you've never owned?

3. If you answered yes to either question 1 or 2, do you feel that you are a "pirate" of games so to speak?

4. Do you have backups of CD based games that you no longer have the originals for?

5. If you answered Yes to 4, do you feel that you are a pirate of games?

6. Do you feel that there is a difference between having a Rom of an old NES game, compared to having a backup of a Dreamcast game that you don't own?

[Flack]

Well, let's get this out of the way.

1. Do you currently have Roms of games that you don't own?
Yes.

2. Do you currently have Roms of games that you've never owned?
Yes.

3. If you answered yes to either question 1 or 2, do you feel that you are a "pirate" of games so to speak?
Yes.

4. Do you have backups of CD based games that you no longer have the originals for?
Yes.

5. If you answered Yes to 4, do you feel that you are a pirate of games?
Yes.

6. Do you feel that there is a difference between having a Rom of an old NES game, compared to having a backup of a Dreamcast game that you don't own?
No.

Scumbag, present and accounted for.

[Anthony1]

I guess I should answer my own questions, if I'm going to expect other people to answer them.


1. Yes

2. Yes

3. Actually, for whatever the reason, I don't feel like a "pirate" because I have Roms of games that I don't own. I guess the main reason that I don't feel like a pirate, is because the games are old, and the general public could care less about them, and I'm just playing the damn games and not selling them. Of course, I know that by the true definition of "pirate" that I would be one, because I do have these Roms that I don't own.

4. Yes

5. Um, with this one, I feel somewhite like a pirate, because I do have some backups to Playstation games, and they are still selling playstation games in actual retail stores. But when it comes to Sega CD and Saturn and 3DO, I don't feel like a pirate, because to me, they are old systems that aren't sold in stores anymore, and to me it, they are just like a Rom of a old Genesis game or something. But I actually do have a few backups of PS1 and Dreamcast games, and because these games are still sold in some retail establishments, that would then definitely make me qualify as a "pirtate".

6. Abosolutely not.

[kai123]

This has been done to death it always turns out the same, with flames erupting from the pits of HELL.

[Raedon]

The C64 taught me the way..

[Anthony1]

This has been done to death it always turns out the same, with flames erupting from the pits of HELL.


Sorry, if this has been done to death. I haven't seen a post asking this question. I haven't been around that long, so that's probably why.

I wonder if this basically turns into the question of whether or not you are in one of two camps. The camp of "Collectors" or the camp of "Gamers".

I would imagine that the Collectors would be very opposed to back ups and roms. Mainly because they are taking the time to collect all the "real" games, and they are payings lots of money to build up there collections. So they would probably feel that people with tons of Roms and Backups, would basically be cheapening the whole experience.


Then you have the Gamers that feel that actually "buying" all these games just so they can play them doesn't really make all that much sense. They don't care about the collections, or the mint games, or the rare games or anything. They just want to play the damn games. And as long as they aren't games from the most current systems, then it's not a big deal. If they go out and buy the games just to play them and they don't care about collecting or anything, then they feel that all they are doing is just inflating the re-sale prices for the "true" collectors out there.


It's funny, because I've actually been in both camps. When I first got into Retro Games, I was very much in the collectors camp, and I was very anti roms and anti backups. But then as time went on, I started thinking....."Do I really need to have the cases and the manuals, and the real physical carts and the real actual cd's?"

Right now, I actually bounce back and forth between both sides and conflicting views of it. Some days I feel that collecting and playing the real thing, is the way to go, and other days, I feel that playing Roms and Backups is perfectly okay, and the smarter way to just game.

Anyways, I would imagine that the real deal collectors would be totally opposed to Roms and Backups. Why wouldn't they be? They are spending tons of time and money, to track down all these old and rare games. And then you have some jackass that just downloads everything for free.

But there might also be some collectors out there, that don't really care about Roms and Backups. The collect for the sake of collecting. And for the purity of their valued collection that they cherish. They could have a best friend that has a hard drive full of Rom's and Iso's, and a Garage full of Backups on Cd-r's, and they could not care about that, because it isn't about having every game at your fingertip, it's about collecting the games. It's about the hunt. And about the manuals and the artwork, and the box cover art. And the little pampletts and broceures that come with the game.

I do have great respect for people having their cherished collections.

[MarioAllStar2600]

Unless the games are currently being produced, what is the big deal. Nobody is losing cash over it.

[Anthony1]

Unless the games are currently being produced, what is the big deal. Nobody is losing cash over it.

I wouldn't exactly say that "nobody" is losing cash over it. Any store that is selling used Playstation, Dreamcast, Saturn, Sega CD, 3DO, etc, etc, games is losing some sales.

Thus, stores like GameStop and GameCrazy and Blockbusters new game store are losing some sales from this.

Then you have Ebay, PayPal, the U.S. Post Office, UPS, etc, etc. If it was absolutely impossible to play games by any means, unless you had the actual system, and the actual game, then all of these corporations would be making more money.

Of course, in the grand scheme of things, it wouldn't be that much more money that they would take in, but they would take in more.

This isn't a completely victimless crime.

[Garry Silljo]

We're on this again? Ok, I have no Roms or Backups, nor will I.

Roms on dead systems DO in fact hurt certain chains and independent shop owners, so it is not a victemless crime like people wish to say it is.

I've already got into this before and it turned into a discussion on highway safety, so I think I'm going to stop now before this goes too far.

[jonjandran]

Roms on dead systems DO in fact hurt certain chains and independent shop owners, so it is not a victemless crime like people wish to say it is.
.

Let me say first that I don't care one way or the other about roms.

But this crap about hurting chains and shop owners is complete bull crap. THEY hurt the original maker of the games because they give Nothing to them . If they didn't re-sell the games then people would have to buy new and the developers would make more money for the games THEY make.

So I could care less about chain stores and shop owners. :roll:

[SegaAges]

i've been in this discussion many times, because at one point in my life, i was a very big pirate (downloading 5-10 dreamcast games a day).

i did it not to up a collection, but because i wanted to play everything, and all those pirated cd-rs that i have well hidden i will every once in awhile pull out so i can play some more games.

pirating will never stop, ever.

the reason I stopped pirating is because one day when i realized what i was doing. i want to goto digipen and make games, and how would i feel if everybody pirated my games? granted, my games will have to be mindblowing (to the point where even pirates buy them, like GTA3).

the pirating scene today isn't near what it used to be. it used to be excellent. you could get any game you wanted for any system you wanted, any system! things change, either that or i probably just changed and see the scene way more differently than i used to.

but do i think pirating is wrong? yes, you would have to be 3 years old to not be able to comprehend that it is wrong. Information may be free, but copyrights cost money.

is pirating good for anything besides free games? yes. i actually own 2 unreleased dreamcast games because of pirating (half life and pba bowling 2001) and within the next few months, propeller arena will be out for piraters. did i have to get a connection or something into getting a gdrom-r, no, all i had to do was download it from my old dreamcast game connection. thrill kill for playstation was never released, and the gun is actually very fun to play

i figured you guys would enjoy a former pirates point of view on this.

[Ed Oscuro]

But this crap about hurting chains and shop owners is complete bull crap. THEY hurt the original maker of the games because they give Nothing to them .

You're saying that reselling games that the original game developer thought would be distributed BEST through these very stores...hurts the developer? If there was a better way to distribute the games, wouldn't the developer/publisher figure it out?

There are times when game stores will screw over an independent developer/publisher by not paying until they sell out of what they've already got (Bungie has had an article up about that since '96), but that's just store/developer relations. Sometimes the store has to stick it to the developers, sometimes (more often) the developer has to get on a retailer's collective corporate ass to get what they've got coming for them. This is a process that will not be helped or expedited by expecting that you can continue to get what amounts to free entertainment.

I do not take pride in having any ROMs, and while I can't always throw money towards companies whose games I have played for free in ROM/emu format, I do try.

In short...wow, you look pretty silly here.

Secondly, what the hell kind of a topic title is this? "Ethical" dilemma? Anthony, you've come up with a bunch of good topics, and this is one of them, but that topic title makes no sense.

Look, things that are illegal are illegal for a reason. There will be exceptions where using ROMs won't hurt people, and there will be times where we can say that unauthorized ROM distribution is ethical (though I'd be hard pressed to agree to that...), but the only way you're going to get off on the "but I'm still an ethical ROM user" is if you do the following:

1.) Buy anthology packages/buy games from developers whose games you like

2.) Buy the original game package if you must emulate it (when possible...yes, Neo Geo MVS is wholly possible, and if you're going to emulate the new games often, at least visit a darn arcade)

I can't really talk about those who distribute ROMs...our own Digital Press has hosted some ROMs, but I feel we have a special case here as it's almost always good press (Haunted Castle aside...) for the original company.

Anyhow, woo hoo!

BEATING DEAD HORSES IS FUN!

Sorry for the pedantry, but I'm not going to sit around and let people get complacent about things. If you like 2D gaming, buy 2D games. It's that simple!

[jonjandran]

[quote=jonjandran]
You're saying that reselling games that the original game developer thought would be distributed BEST through these very stores...hurts the developer? If there was a better way to distribute the games, wouldn't the developer/publisher figure it out?


In short...wow, you look pretty silly here.

!

Oh yea I'm sure the developers sat around and said "I think it would be best to redistribute used games throug EB games and Gamestop "

That's about the STUPIDEST thing I've heard in a long time. :roll:

[Ed Oscuro]

but do i think pirating is wrong? yes, you would have to be 3 years old to not be able to comprehend that it is wrong. Information may be free, but copyrights cost money.

*pedantry mini-diatribe upcoming alert*

Overall, a good post, but...Information is, in a manner of speaking, data that relates meaning. Information is not "free." One can come by data all the time...plug in your mic and start recording static, you'll see (hence the term "raw data"), but information is processed.

Programs aren't just information, either...I can't come up with a better term than just "programs."

Anyhow, I know what you're saying, and it's right, but the copyright filing is the least of a developer's costs ;)

(though, on another note, some companies don't care enough about protecting their IP these days...and that's a story for another day)

[Ed Oscuro]

You're saying that reselling games that the original game developer thought would be distributed BEST through these very stores...hurts the developer? If there was a better way to distribute the games, wouldn't the developer/publisher figure it out?


In short...wow, you look pretty silly here.

!

Oh yea I'm sure the developers sat around and said "I think it would be best to redistribute used games throug EB games and Gamestop "

That's about the STUPIDEST thing I've heard in a long time. :roll:

o_O

I'm not going to say anything...I just want the utter stupidity of Jon's statement here to sink in a bit...

Sorry man, but you've crossed a line there. You just crawled into the doghouse, locked it, threw the key out of reach, and proceeded to rock back and forth about until the whole thing fell into a hole in your backyard where your dog proceeded to cover it over with dirt. Man, what were you thinking?

I also like how you call me "STUPID" when I said you "look silly."

[jonjandran]

[o_O

I'm not going to say anything...I just want the utter stupidity of Jon's statement here to sink in a bit...

Sorry man, but you've crossed a line there. You just crawled into the doghouse, locked it, threw the key out of reach, and proceeded to rock back and forth about until the whole thing fell into a hole in your backyard where your dog proceeded to cover it over with dirt. Man, what were you thinking?

I also like how you call me "STUPID" when I said you "look silly."

Oh pardon me , I forgot you're the expert of everything. Give me a break.

Saying something is the stupidest thing you've heard is not saying someone is Stupid.

But I would have thought you would know this since you are a know it all.

And I won't be replying to any more of your post as I have better things to do than banter with people who can dish it but can't take it.

[Ed Oscuro]

I see. The false "I'm gonna play DIG-NI-FAYED" line comes out.

Well, then, I'm sure you could answer how game companies hate game stores reselling games (that people sold back).

Do game companies want to put game stores out of business (as we've been told recently, game stores make most of their money off tradeins -- and I'm quoting there, so this isn't a case of me making up stuff)?

You seem to be a proponent of people keeping ahold of their games, not reselling them to stores, and of stores destroying games that have already been sold. That's what your "game stores pay developers nothing to resell a game" comment adds up to.

I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that THAT is stupid. I also fail to see what about any of my posts here is off the mark.

By the way, if you were so angry about game stores stealing profits from developers, you wouldn't ever sell anything in the Buy + Sell forums, would you? Oh, but you do.

[MarioAllStar2600]

C'mon guys. Lets not argue. The Battlezone is gone, cant we just be friends now? Roms always seem to be a touchy topic, and I hate them. Everyone can argue about ROMS, and have a different standpoint on them. What does it matter GameStop and EB stopped carrying them.

[Ed Oscuro]

What should the words "controversial topic" mean, then? This is a place to argue about stuff.

I'm not a fan of taking snide comments that are intended to bite without using angry words in stride, either.

I do agree that this does detract from my comments overall, though...I'd like to take it back to the discussion there, but it seems that Jon has already stormed away in a huff playing the "I'm too good to answer your criticisms (because I've been totally owned and I know it)" card.

[jonjandran]

I see. The false "I'm gonna play DIG-NI-FAYED" line comes out.

Well, then, I'm sure you could answer how game companies hate game stores reselling games (that people sold back).

Do game companies want to put game stores out of business (as we've been told recently, game stores make most of their money off tradeins -- and I'm quoting there, so this isn't a case of me making up stuff)?

You seem to be a proponent of people keeping ahold of their games, not reselling them to stores, and of stores destroying games that have already been sold. That's what your "game stores pay developers nothing to resell a game" comment adds up to.

I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that THAT is stupid. I also fail to see what about any of my posts here is off the mark.

By the way, if you were so angry about game stores stealing profits from developers, you wouldn't ever sell anything in the Buy + Sell forums, would you? Oh, but you do.

Ok since you decided to play nice. Let's see.....

1. Never said "game companies hate game stores reselling games" . I said that "If they didn't re-sell the games then people would have to buy new and the developers would make more money for the games THEY make" Him can't quite figure out where I said anything about how the developers feel. :hmm:

2. "You seem to be a proponent of people keeping ahold of their games, not reselling them to stores, " Never commented once on people selling, buying or reselling games. :hmm:

3. "By the way, if you were so angry about game stores stealing profits from developers, you wouldn't ever sell anything in the Buy + Sell forums, would you? Oh, but you do."
Boy , once again I never said I was angry or even cared. Just said Developers get no money when stores sell used games. :hmm:

Man when you read in between the lines you sure read a lot......

[jonjandran]

I'd like to take it back to the discussion there, but it seems that Jon has already stormed away in a huff playing the "I'm too good to answer your criticisms (because I've been totally owned and I know it)" card.

Grow up...... You sound like my 6 year old.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'll lay off the angry bits, then, if you'll agree to answer my question.

How is it that game stores are doing something wrong by reselling games?

That's all I'm interested in.

[Gamemaster_ca_2003]

ok i will not lie to you I play games on emulators. if i had the original console and many of the games for it then i will stop using emluators execpt for MAME but since i do not i am left with emulators but i do not mind.

[jonjandran]

I'll lay off the angry bits, then, if you'll agree to answer my question.

How is it that game stores are doing something wrong by reselling games?

That's all I'm interested in.

I'm really tring to understand why you think I feel this way.

I was just saying that it is odd to feel bad for hurting stores that sell used games by playing roms. You should feel bad for hurting the game developer. It's not like these stores selling used games are helping the Game developers. The developers get nothing for the reselling of these games.

So to me it seems like you play a rom you don't help the game developer, You buy a used game you don't help game developer.

The only thing that helps the Game developer is if you buy a New game.

So that was my whole point. It had nothing to do with how the developers feel about the stores or if the stores are doing something wrong.

[Ed Oscuro]

Just so I don't come off looking like an ass, I'm going to have to resort to referencing an earlier quote...


But this crap about hurting chains and shop owners is complete bull crap. THEY hurt the original maker of the games because they give Nothing to them .

That looks quite antagonistic towards game stores, no? I think my comments are reasonable given this statement which seems to indicate that you don't think game stores should be able to make money off reselling used games.


I was just saying that it is odd to feel bad for hurting stores that sell used games by playing roms.

See what I said up above.

If I made any other points about anything else you said, I could've (probably was) just misunderstanding what you said.

Still, those are not very nice things to say about stores. Stores don't make a lot of money...neither do developers, for sure, but stores really do make a lot of money through reselling games, and if the stock market is any indication, it doesn't look like such a good business after all. Some developers have token online stores (see 3D Realms and their option to buy classic Apogee titles online), but they don't seem to account for much business at all. Enough to keep the servers up, true, but not nearly enough for original game distribution.

The logical extension of this argument -- why do we care about online stores? -- is that there is no other efficient way for a developer to sell their games. eBay...well, Manci games sold some subscriptions on eBay, and that's a commendable approach, but could you see retailing Splinter Cell on eBay? Maybe someday, but right now that's not terribly convenient compared to going to a bricks-and-mortar store. Same goes for mail-order catalogs...those are antiquated, not very convenient, and obsolete as soon as they're sent out.

A developer can try to "cut out the middleman," and in many industries that's becoming a standard feature of doing business, but the time apparently isn't quite right for that to happen in game sales. People like real world stores a lot, apparently.

I really feel it's unfortunate that you feel this way, but at least we're talking now. That's good :)

[Ze_ro]

1. Do you currently have Roms of games that you don't own?
Yes. Many.

2. Do you currently have Roms of games that you've never owned?
Yes. Many. I keep buying games though, so this number will eventually fall. I don't consider a rom a substitute for the real thing, so eventually the only (illegal) roms I have will be for games that I've been unable to find at all (ie, prototypes, extremely rare games, and arcade games that I have no room for).

3. If you answered yes to either question 1 or 2, do you feel that you are a "pirate" of games so to speak?
Yes. I know full well that I'm breaking the law... but I don't honestly believe that it's causing any companies real loss of revenue. The most recent pirate game I have are some Dreamcast games (my legitimate games definitely outnumber my CD-R's... and as I said before, this ratio will only get better as I manage to find these games)

4. Do you have backups of CD based games that you no longer have the originals for?
Yes... although the only CD based pirates that I have are Dreamcast games.

5. If you answered Yes to 4, do you feel that you are a pirate of games?
Yes.

6. Do you feel that there is a difference between having a Rom of an old NES game, compared to having a backup of a Dreamcast game that you don't own?
Well, the Dreamcast is old enough now that pirating a game doesn't cause financial harm to anyone really. I didn't pirate Dreamcast games while it was in it's heyday at the very least.

Roms and copied CD-R's aren't any different really. I'm still breaking the same laws whether it's a Dreamcast game or a NES game. Jaywalking is illegal, and I still do that. No one gets hurt from it, so I feel no guilt. I feel pretty much the same way about pirating old games.

The only people I think are screwing the industry are those who ONLY play roms and backups. Almost everyone here has roms, yet still buys games anyways.

--Zero

[Flack]

The difference between copying ROMs and CDRs is the same as the difference between copying cassettes and CDs.

If I'm stealing from anybody, it's Blockbuster. When I download newer games, it's to rent them for free. It's not even to save the $3 or whatever, it's because I'm lazy and because Blockbuster has crappy availablilty. I wish you could reuse CDs because 99% of the stuff I download I never look at again (most consoles will not read CDRW's).

I have been writing movie, music, and videogame reviews on the web for several years now. It is unrealistic and cost prohibitive for me to buy every new album, movie, and videogame to spend an hour with them just to write a review. Whatever couple of bucks companies lose from me downloading crap is made up in free press when I review their stuff for free (unless it's a bad review, then I screw them twice I s'pose).

Downloading roms isn't collecting anything, I've never even met anyone who has confused the two. That's like downloading pictures of cars, printing them out and taping them to your garage door and telling people you're a car collector. A car fan maybe, but not a car collector.

I don't care if people pirate games or not. All I care is that people call a spade a spade. Forget all this abandonware BS. I don't even buy the "well you can't buy it new anymore". You can't buy Activision's Laser Blast for the Atari 2600 anymore, so is that okay to download the ROM for? Last year Activision released their PS2 compilation, which had that game on it. So if you downloaded it, you're still theoretically hurting their sales. And by downloading non-released games, you could be hurting potential sales of future releases.

Bottom line, do whatever you do that allows you to sleep at night.

[Ed Oscuro]

Downloading roms isn't collecting anything, I've never even met anyone who has confused the two. That's like downloading pictures of cars, printing them out and taping them to your garage door and telling people you're a car collector. A car fan maybe, but not a car collector.

The only difference, of course, is that the essential elements of a car are bits of metal, aluminum, maybe chrome or (heavens forbid) plastic, whereas the essential elements needed to play a game are a general purpose CPU of the appropriate specifications (i.e. any moderately fast PC with emu software) and code. I can't say that I've met people who've confused game collecting and ROM collecting, but I have met people who claim to be "big fans" of stuff when they haven't ever played.

So...yeah, I agree with you. Let's call spades just that.

[Ze_ro]

I wish you could reuse CDs because 99% of the stuff I download I never look at again

I usually only pirate a game if I think I'll enjoy it (ie, I have no mahjongg games for MAME)... once I saw "Rainbow Cotton" on a Dreamcast newsgroup. I remember the 2D shooters being pretty decent, so I decided to burn a copy (I have very little concern about pirating a game that was never made available to my region in the first place).

What a waste of a disc that was. And it wasn't even a self-boot image. I'll definitely never play this one again. I think I'll just throw it out.

--Zero

[SoulBlazer]

Ze_ro's comments are VERY close to my own, so why bother repeating myself when he said it so well? :D

And guys, DO try to keep this civil please or we're going to have ANOTHER good thread locked.

BTW, has anyone noticed how HARD it is to find ROM's these days? A few years ago it was easy. Now if I try to find a game I'd like to check out, it takes quite a while and my pop-up blocker is in full force.

[farfel]

1. Do you currently have Roms of games that you don't own? 2. Do you currently have Roms of games that you've never owned? 3. If you answered yes to either question 1 or 2, do you feel that you are a "pirate" of games so to speak? 4. Do you have backups of CD based games that you no longer have the originals for? 5. If you answered Yes to 4, do you feel that you are a pirate of games? 6. Do you feel that there is a difference between having a Rom of an old NES game, compared to having a backup of a Dreamcast game that you don't own?

yes. yes. no. no. skip. no, both are discontinued. NES vs. PS2? yes.

Flowchart sums my view

_______________________
|Is the game available|
| brand-new, in-box, |
| and sealed? |
-----------------------
_____ _____
|YES | | NO |
|Buy| | Get |
| it. | | ROM |
-------- -------------

I support developers when possible. Don’t care about used shops.

[Garry Silljo]

Since my comment sparked this fued I would like to say only 2 things.

1. My point was just that using roms from dead systems is not without victems, in this case game stores. Yes used games MAY hurt developers in some run to what extent I don't know, but that wasn't the issue. The issue was that some person stated that as long as the system was dead and the game not being manufactured NO ONE was hurt, and that is certainly false.

2.When trying to disagree with a point, NEVER use the word "stupidest". Seeing as how it's not a word at all, it makes the speaker look stupid and not the point he or she wishes to refute. Also in case you were thinking so "stupider" is not a word either. Nor is "Kuckamungfootyainthemouth".

I'm finished, continue.