CGE + California Extreme?

[swlovinist]

I totally agree with San Jose, but you forgot to menton a big event bigger then the developers conference in the area of retrogaming....CALIFORNIA EXTREME!!!! If you want this event to grow and become THE GAMING EVENT TO GO TO IN THE US, then possibly a team up with California EXTREME! Nothing would touch it...nothing!

[CX2K]

any news?

Yes. We have news. But....

The venue we're utilizing will not allow us to make a public announcement until we have a signed contract with them. Look for the full info by Friday.

Re: California Extreme

We have approached them several times regarding teaming up and hosting one big event. They have no interest in doing this. They are afraid of losing some of their revenue since they had a previous bad experience with the Vintage Computer Festival. Our intention was to have one show with one admission price, they wanted attendees to pay $40 admission to them and then $35 admission for us which is totally unacceptable in our eyes. We tried many times to work something out but no such luck.

More info to come.
John

[zmweasel]

[Our intention was to have one show with one admission price, they wanted attendees to pay $40 admission to them and then $35 admission for us which is totally unacceptable in our eyes.

Mine, too. Now that I know of their greed, I'll never attend their event again.

-- Z.

[vectrexer]

Well I guess we all know that Extreme that the combo show choice for CGExpo.

While I am not all that enthusiastic about a combo show with California Extreme I do have to say it is not an entirely bad idea. I love the location for being close to my home.

On possible pricing for the show I think that there has to be give and take on both sides.

The Current Price for CGExpo is $35 (onsite).
The Current price for California Extreme is $40.

I feel that $55.00 to $65.00 combo price is not too bad of a price to pay. For some reason $55-$59 seems to be my palatable range for pricing to get in both days.

Given that California Extreme has a history of being able to slice up their show I think that various flavors of show passes might be a doable thing. The only real problem with having various admittance flavors is finding honest people to restrict show goers from access to various portions of the show. So maybe day passes only is the only easy way to do things


CGExpo has to has to know the amount of video games being brought to California Extreme will not increase one whit by CGExpo being put on at the same time as California Extreme Well maybe a whit. But not more than a whit. On the Arcade games side of the story California Extreme contributes much more than it gets.

CGExpo has to know that California Extreme already has some sessions planned . Granted the CGExpo session address a much wider audience than the California Extreme Sessions. On the Sessions side of the story I think that both shows bring a lot to the table for their respective crowds. More variety is better for all the attendees.

California Extreme has to know that CGExpo will bring in a large section of vendors with items that the average person will be likely to take home. In all this amounts to a much better section for vendors and attendees. The flyers available from the Vendors lat year were only "OK". Even the repair parts availability was average at best. Past the flyers and the parts, the only real take-home items were the free game token, free stickers, and shirts you pay for. I feel that CGExpo would contribute a huge section of vendors which benefits the show and the attendees. A larger and better selection of vendors is definitely a marketable item that CGExpo can contribute to California Extreme.

California Extreme has to know that CGExpo will bring in a great museum exhibit that really rocks. Sure California Extreme has set up some token displays that have been pretty cool in their own right. But that show lacks a quality display. Of course, they also lack a proper display area too (as mentioned in another post of mine). But on the whole CGExpo really contributes a lot here as well. The museum exhibit is definitely a quite place local news crews can use to record interview segments while maintaining the retro atmosphere of the show.


California Extreme has to know that CGExpo will bring in a section of the show that I feel has been largely absent from their show. Namely, more and better classic home console area. This area is important for two reasons. One, that section contributes a lot to linking the attendees to the era. Two, many younger people have not seen the really older systems in operation. Three, a console area would be wonderful for the kids to play in. And there were definitely kids there last year. The old bowling game setup was in operation non-stop till about 9 PM. My daughter keep playing even after that. I doubt that any other game had more play time than the bowling game during the day. So having a classic home console section would be a great compliment to the few kid games that were setup at California Extreme.


The last two issues I want to bring up are the availability for Vendors and Exhibitors to gain free admittance and session recordings.

Vendors don't have a problem with admittance since they pay for a table/booth anyway. Exhibitors like Rick myself and others who bring a huge portion of the museum display and play stations for the floor should be admitted free. I wanted to bring a large setup of Vectrex items last year for California Extreme. I even asked their staff about the possibility of the exchange of show admittance for the display. Their response was negative. I can accept this reply given the point of the California Extreme show is aimed to arcade units. And the only arcade machine I have is a Tempest. (though I am looking for others)


For Session recordings both CGExpo and California Extreme really need to get their act together. Quality Session recordings in both audio and video could be another income source. I am still looking to pay for a copy of Zonn's Session at California Extreme 2003. (someone hook me up please)


Like you, I am I am still waiting anxiously for the final location of CGExpo 2004

[caextreme.org]

In light of recent discussion group postings regarding California
Extreme and the Classic Gaming Expo, a few words of clarification
are needed. While I am out of touch with the climate and decorum
in discussion groups, I was concerned with the words used to
discuss such business in a public forum. I appreciate frank
discussion, however when incomplete or apocryphal statements
are made or people are publicly disparaged without compelling
reason, a more complete understanding must be brought to light.

I'll try to make a "long story" short, but not so short as to
give a misleading picture.

To quote John (cx2k) from Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:21 pm
(http://www.atariage.com/forums)
"As previously stated, we tried to join forces with CAX but they weren't willing to work with us on the level we wanted. It seems they got burned pretty bad by the Vintage Computer Festival people and want no part of joining shows where there's any chance they might not get as much revenue."

and from John (cx2k) Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:59 pm
(http://www.digitpress.com/forum)
"We have approached them several times regarding teaming up and hosting one big event. They have no interest in doing this. They are afraid of losing some of their revenue since they had a previous bad experience with the Vintage Computer Festival. Our intention was to have one show with one admission price, they wanted attendees to pay $40 admission to them and then $35 admission for us which is totally unacceptable in our eyes. We tried many times to work something out but no such luck."

It is unfortunate that John has chosen to stress questionable
points and leave out relevant facts. Months ago, John called
me on the telephone a couple of times to discuss the possibility
of connecting CGE and CA Extreme. I liked the idea of convenience
for attendees (although there barely seems to be enough time in
a weekend for ONE show) but indicated that a formal combination
of the two shows would bring a lot of problems. It was suggested
that all the convenience could be had by locating the shows
next to each other on the same weekend. John advocated a single
admission price, but that seemed to the Extreme staff a risky
prospect. I suggested it would be difficult to determine a way
to allocate any "combined" revenues that would be likely to
end up "fair", and that any rules would need to be established
in advance, that's just good sense. After asking the advice of
our entire staff and some savvy friends, no one had a good way
to set this up. If the shows were run at a profit, some risk
could be taken in transferring revenue between shows, but CAX
budget is run out of pocket, and to date no personal profit
has been made, with all revenue going to cover show expenses.
It seemed clear that a combined admission equal to the current
single show price, which John seemed to advocate, could not
possibly cover the costs of both shows. A higher price was then
considered. Our concern was that some show attendees would have
little interest in the other show. For example, many Extreme
attendees are pinball fans with no interest in video games,
coin-operated or home console. It seemed unreasonable to ask
such people to be compelled to pay more, regardless of
their range of interest. We suggested offering a $10 evening
discount for attendees of both shows. That would make full
admission to CGE and Saturday Night at CA Extreme $35+$15=$50,
adding Sunday at CA Extreme bringing the total to $65. Those
numbers seem fair, and are in the ballpark of what Chris
(vectrexer) Posted on: Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:52 pm at
http://www.digitpress.com/forum as a suggestion.

As to the combined show location, in our early conversations,
I described our venue to John. The space in Parkside that we
don't use was not to John's liking - it was too small and
could not accommodate a separate museum room. I suggested they
look into the Civic Auditorium, which is just across
the plaza from our hall, and was available the same weekend.
Apparently it didn't suit their purposes. John did not
suggest any other venue.

The following quotes from email I had sent to John support
this view:

A quote from a private email from me to John on January 23, 2004:
"We are not
in a position for a formal merge of the shows, but are fine with
CGE sharing the weekend. When I last spoke with the SJCC, I
was told the Civic Auditorium, which is directly across the small
parking plaza from the Parkside Hall which we use, was available.
Use of the facility should be arranged with SJCC soon if it is
desired."

and a quote from a private email from me to John on January 27, 2004:
"We can probably offer something like a $10 discount for those with
a CGE badge after 6 PM on Saturday or something like that. If we
end up neighbors, we can check on details."

Again, it could be my lack of familiarity with the tone of the
web site communications, but I don't understand why John felt
it necessary to post such unfriendly words. Sellam of VCF
apparently objected to the posts as well, and felt compelled
to respond. For the record, Sellam and I are on good
speaking terms, and although the post clearly had the
potential to stir up a fight, we easily discussed the issues
over the phone and there is no problem between us.
The specific discussion of VCF with CGE had consisted of
examples of how difficulties arose in combining the shows
(over discounted combined admission, for example) and that
the experience had given us a lesson in caution, and that
combining shows would require careful detailed agreements
ahead of time. An example of the discussion comes from
email I sent John on January 23: (in the past when we)
" ... tried to closely partner with another group or
organization, the result has been much extra work, risk,
and loss to CA Extreme, with little to no actual benefit to
either the organization or our supporters or attendees."
The purpose was to make it clear to John that what he seemed
to want, a loose agreement on how to combine the shows, was
not possible. To be clear, the 2000 show combined
with VCF did have benefits for CA Extreme, but the inherent
difficulties make it undesirable to combine the two again.
I was shocked that such private conversations had been
turned into such an unfortunate public message.

I hope this message clears up a few things, and quiets down any
ill feelings rather than stirring up any new ones. I hope for
the success of all the shows - CGE, VCF, and CA Extreme make
up a solid group covering related, wonderful genres, but there
is no need for conflict among a natural complimentary set.

For the Extreme Team, Happy Gaming,
Ken Chaney

[digitalpress]

I hope this message clears up a few things, and quiets down any
ill feelings rather than stirring up any new ones. I hope for
the success of all the shows - CGE, VCF, and CA Extreme make
up a solid group covering related, wonderful genres, but there
is no need for conflict among a natural complimentary set.

For the Extreme Team, Happy Gaming,
Ken Chaney

Thanks for posting, Ken.

Personally I REALLY wanted to see this work out. A combined show would have been simply phenomenal. I wasn't involved in the negotiating but it seemed like it never got to the point where we could discuss details. Since we're in the same area now, maybe next year could be a possibility.

I can tell you from personal experience that there's no ill-will meant for CAX, maybe a little disappointment. I interpreted John's comments as explanation since many people are bringing up the natural idea to join the two events. It's important to know that we've at least made an attempt.

Again, here's to next year!

Best of luck to you and the show this year!

[CX2K]

Agreed. There was no ill-will or malice intended but rather in trying to answer the most common question, I was just repeating what was told to me as a reason for not doing one combined show.

To be honest Ken, there seemed to be no interest from CAX in doing this from the beginning. Regardless, I see now that my words were inappropriate and I have sent a formal apology to both organizations.

I wish the best for all three events. Perhaps we can work together in the future.

Regards,
John

[vectrexer]

Ken,

Nice posting. It is good to know the collaborative effort between VCF and CAX had benefits for both sides.

For those effort between CAX and CGExpo I did not really think there was any ill will. It just did not appear to be smooth fitting of both shows. At least not on the surface for the first year around.

Attending CGExpo in San Jose this year might, or might not, show how a good fit for both shows during the same period for 2005 could be had.

Chris

[john_soper]

Dumb question, but is there any chance that next year the two shows could be kept separate, but scheduled for the same weekend? Then out-of-towners could hit both and each show might have higher attendance.