A not so small rant about casual gamers and SONY

[sabre2922]

OK here goes:
I have set on the sidelines and read many interesting and intelligent posts and opinions on this great forum. I am under the impression that the majority of ppl here have been playing or collection videogames for as long as I have (over twenty years) and are as passionate and involved in this great, fun hobby of ours as I am.
Therefore I hope that all others here will read this post with an open mind and respond with thier opinions and not go on a flaming rampage respectively.
What once was considered a small geek hobby has truthfully become a billion dollar industry, now shouldnt this be a great thing for gamers everywhere,yes, is it in truth a positive thing NO heres why: Casual gamers have been and are destroying this hobby with mass purchases of games like Superman 64(yes it did actually sell well back in the 32-bit,64-bit days) and ENTER THE MATRIX! While great or even experimental games like Beyond good and evil and Prince of Persia collect dust on the shelves.
So in the end we reap what we sow right? meaning we get more crap games shoved down our throats as all the Sony Brainwashed minions purchase more PS2's to replace the one that they bought only 6 months ago since theres "broke again".
That then leads us to SONY the 2-D hatin company that thinks its $hit dont stink. Xbox and Gamecube owners get just a little more 2-D goodness thanks to Sony's new policies but in the end that same policy is killing any true experimentation that has always kept this hobby an interesting one.
Does anyone think that Viewtiful Joe would be released on the PS2 if it wasnt already a hit on Gamecube?
My message to all here that actually think of videogames as more than a passing phase or a drunken night playing Madden at their buddies house is this: we do have the power to change things for the better, to reclaim our hobby from the uncleansed masses that follow Sony with blind faith.
To buy the great and experimental games and let the crap copy cat games like True crime be the ones to set and collect dust on the shelves.
LATER GAMERS!!!

[Captain Wrong]

Here we go again. :roll:

I'd just like someone to tell me which supposedly "pure" gaming era wasn't plagued with a bunch of me-too copycat games. That has ALWAYS been part on this industry from the Atari VCS days on. Yes, there's more of it now because, well, there's just more games period now.

Anyone who thinks that if it wasn't for these meddling mainstream gamers, *insert name of favorite import, genre, 2d game, etc.* would get released instead and we'd see an end to sequels and copycats is just plain fooling themselves. Why do people think that if the market was smaller companies would put out niche titles that won't even sell in a market as big as it is currently?

Fuck it. I'm so done with this. Enjoy flogging the dead horse everyone.

(Note to sabre2922, I'm not meaning any of this personally against you. The "Sony/Mainstream gamers ruined the industry" topic is currently number 3 on my Top 5 topics I'm so sick and tired of seeing. I'm just being crotchety to day, so I'll go take my nap now. LOL)

[gamegirl79]

Well, I have been playing games for close to 20 years myself, and I have a confession to make....

I not only BOUGHT Enter the Matrix, I PRE-ORDERED it.

And if that isn't enough....

I ENJOYED it!! I played the hell out of it!

I know it's not one of the most popular games to come out recently, but I liked it. I can't help it. In fact, I guess I'm guilty of playing other games that seem to bounce right off the shelves into the hands of 'casual' gamers. I like to play Madden every once in awhile just as much as I love searching endlessly for that copy of Jack Bros. for Virtual Boy.

I really don't see all this as a bad thing. The thing to remember is that not all video game players are collectors. While it does make me upset when I see my friends not take care of their PS2 and get mad when they have to buy a 2nd or even 3rd console, I have to keep telling myself that some people just don't take as much pride in video games as I do. That's what separates the collectors from the casual gamers, and what separates DP members from many other video game forum members. :)

[sabre2922]

No prob Captain everone has a right to their own opinions and I see a lot of good points in your post also ;)
Even though if u really read my post and the message carried thierin it really does say more and complain about more than just copycat games
What really gets me is industry giants like Sony placing more brick walls in front of developers and publishers saying NO 2-D on our system etc but I tried to hit on many points even though most will read and focus only on one specific topic

[Achika]

It's hard to have an open mind about the topic at hand, when the poster of said topic doesn't seem to have an open mind about it himself. :roll:

I have said it before, no one person can define a "perfect, great, good, etc." game. What you hold dear, another person might loath. What that person thinks is a great game, you might hate. Some of the "hardcore" collector/gamers here might like that "crappy" title that was only sold to "casual gamers"

[Cmosfm]

I refuse to even comment on this, because I've only been here 4-5 months and I've heard this SAME exact topic brought up, beat to death, and so on and so forth more times than I care to count.

Nothing else to say, really. :o

[PapaStu]

Does anyone think that Viewtiful Joe would be released on the PS2 if it wasnt already a hit on Gamecube?

Its being pushed to the PS2 BECAUSE it hasnt sold well. Not the other way around. A great game it is, but Capcom has had a horrible time with their "exclusiveness" of titles to the GC. REmake, RE:0, Viewtiful Joe, have all struggled on the system. They took a risk that few others were willing to do. Make Cube Exclusives. I appreciate them for it, I bought them all right after release. But like before with the N64 the really good stuff is Nintendo, and the 3rd parties have stayed away like the plague.

As what came out at the end of that prior thread (the whole sony no 2D thing) Sony is in business to make MONEY. They are trying to show the power of their system in comparison to the GC or XB, and its hard to do with a 2D game. Dont get me wrong i Love those 2D games, but you cant show the gaming power orr innovations of your system, when your SNES or Saturn can do the exact same game, and make it look just as good.


It's hard to have an open mind about the topic at hand, when the poster of said topic doesn't seem to have an open mind about it himself. :roll:

I agree completely.

[sabre2922]

I see I touched a nerve, great ;) and I dont consider myself to be a closed minded person especially when it comes to games wich is my fav hobby.
I was completely aware that this would very well be a touchy topic and most likely garner me more foes than friends
I honestly think of everone here as equals especially if anyone takes the time out in thier lives to post and debate on a message board devoted to nothing but videogames they must be a kindred soul but hey im not apologizing for my views Its just the conclusion that I have come to after seeing years of decline in the quality games that are released for all systems but that may be for another thread entirely

[Cmosfm]

I see I touched a nerve, great ;) and I dont consider myself to be a closed minded person especially when it comes to games wich is my fav hobby.
I was completely aware that this would very well be a touchy topic and most likely garner me more foes than friends


The only reason you "touched a nerve" is because everyone tired of talking about and debating a topic thats been shot, beat to beat, spit on, buried alive, zombified, decapitated, reanimated again, and then burned to death only to come back a few days later as a smelly blob of goo.

[sabre2922]

ok CM calm down I guess Im the devil for putting up a post that iritates u so sorry man chill!
and NO I dont think it has been done to death I think u seem to have taken this all very personally so for that I apologize ok? damn

[Cmosfm]

I don't think what I posted was something I need to be told to "calm down" over. I just posted my opinion of this topic, and the many times its been done to death.

If I was ANGRY YOU'D HAVE KNOWN IT! :angry:

:D

[SpasticFuctard]

I can define the perfect game in three words:

Tentacles, skirts, soup.


When is Sony going to stop standing between my love of tentacles in soupy skirts and developers for the platform? When!

SF - Ewwwwww.

[sabre2922]

its kooooool 8-)

[Achika]

I can define the perfect game in three words:

Tentacles, skirts, soup.


When is Sony going to stop standing between my love of tentacles in soupy skirts and developers for the platform? When!

SF - Ewwwwww.

You buster, have it SO. WRONG.

It should be:

Zombies, skirts, guns.


The last topic was here:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29999&highlight=

IMO, if you had an "open mind" about it, you would be able to see and rationalize it from each different angle. Since you've come to the conclusion that "your way is the right way", that is close minded.

[Flack]

What's worse, buying and playing a generally accepted "bad game", or sitting around online talking about it, not gaming at all?

Peace. Love. Joysticks.

[Garry Silljo]

There will always be bad games and copy cat games. Any game that is successful will be copied to death for the chance at getting the money. If we only buy the good innovative games then rather than beat back the spread of bad games, we will create a whole new breed of bad games that closely resemble the good games we bought.

Bottom line: Buy games that make you happy, let the bad games come and if you dont want them, dont get them. Some one wants to spend $50 on Madden every year while you experience something new, wish them well (and then think whatever you wish about them in the quiet of your head).

[ManekiNeko]

It's hard to have an open mind about the topic at hand, when the poster of said topic doesn't seem to have an open mind about it himself. :roll:

And it's just as hard to be open-minded toward a company which regularly rejects games, not on the basis of quality but because they're not pretty or controversial enough. Where's the tolerance and acceptance in that?

I think it really illustrates where the industry is going (straight into the toilet) when a cute, fun game like Goemon gets cancelled while something gory and tasteless like Grand Theft Auto sells millions of copies. Ten years ago, it would have been the other way around.

Sabre is right... a greedy, parasitic corporation like Sony is not good for this industry. They'll drive it straight into the ground for the sake of a quick profit, then abandon video games and the people who play them when they feel they're no longer profitable. Don't think it can't happen. It did twenty years ago, when Warner Communications was calling the shots.

JR

[EndlessChris]

I don't blame Sony, I blame American Culture in general. I look at the Japan top ten and the English top ten for videogames and I see nice fun games like Mario Kart, Onimusha and Pokemon. I look at the American top ten and all I see is Grand Theft Auto, Manhunt, Madden and other mindless violent trash. The reason the video game industry is so lacking in innovation is that anything that isn't ultra violent doesn't sell.

[Queen Of The Felines]

It doesn't just happen in video games. Look at all the great innovative tv shows that get cancelled right away while all that reality show crap keeps on going and going and GOING. Ditto with movies...anything remarkably different than the mainstream usually goes straight into the toilet (with a few rare exceptions, of course). Don't even get me started on books and music.

Either Americans enjoy the crap we're being fed or we're just too apathetic to care.

Long story short, it's not Sony's fault for giving the people what they (supposedly) want.

Kristine

[sabre2922]

Thankx manekineko
and this goes out to GARRY SILLJO what u suggest "keep those thoughts in your head" or whatever u meant is called CENSORSHIP BUDDY meaning to question the establishment or to go against what is popular what you are trying to tell me is that since what I believe doesnt coincide with whats popular to keep my mouth shut and man thats just wrong! but hey I was under the impression that this was a free speech forum but since I made a negative statement about sony ie "whats popular" i guess I should be burned at the stake and keep my mouth shut right? yeah to bad hitler wasnt on this forum im sure he would agree with you garry.
but hey nothing personal man lol :P

[Queen Of The Felines]

Hitler! Take a drink!

Kristine

[Kroogah]

yeah to bad hitler wasnt on this forum im sure he would agree with you garry.
but hey nothing personal man lol :P

AUGH

Stick a fork in this topic! It's DONE!

[Garry Silljo]

The ACTUAL translation of what I said would be "let them eat crap (if that's what they desire)" However, you just like being overly defensive and starting fires. News flash, not everyone who doesn't agree with you is the furor. Lots of people like crappy games, so who are you to say that companies are ruining the industry by selling people bad games and having those people be thankful for them. If no one wanted it, it wouldn't sell. So if they want crap, let them have it.

Oh, I'm SOOOOO evil.

[spooie]

I just want to say that Viewtiful Joe was ORIGINALLY offered to PS2 and Sony turned it down. Only after it was released for Gamecube and did good there (and yes, for Gamecube sales of a Non-Nintendo game, it did very good)... that's when Sony took an interest in it. Because their competitors were getting attention for something they weren't and foolishly abandoned.

SCEA did the same thing for Megaman back on the PSX. They originally turned down both MegaMan 8 and MegaMan x4 becuase they were 2D sidescrollers and the strong ties to Nintendo. Only after Sega picked them up for Saturn did SCEA allow them to come out over here... and Capcom was required to call MM8 a "special 10th anniversary edition" and give them the bonus character booklet to make it seem superior to the Saturn version, which actually played better and had an extra stage. After Saturn faded into obscurity, Capcom had to make a deal to give them a 3D MM game as a "gift" to continue with the side scrollers. Thus, MM Legends was born.

Sony repeatedly turned down the Metal Slug Game, and when they eventually accepted it, kept pushing it back. It should have been out last year... when is it coming out now? September? NOW that it's been confirmed for Xbox. They turned down the Ys remake. And, they never allowed the Megaman collection to come out over here on PSX. I'd stake my 1st Place in Track and Field 1988 NES trophy that the only reason that Sony is allowing the 15th Anniversary Megaman release, is because Gamecube is doing it as well. If Gamecube wasn't offered it, I'd imagine we'd never see the games rereleased.

[Captain Wrong]

Sources?

Not to be a smart ass, but if all that is true, I'd like to see it in writing for a change rather than the usual conventional wisdom version.

BTW, anyone know how Metal Slug X did for PSX? I'd just like to know.

Furthermore, about Metal Slug 3, for one thing Sony is not putting this out. Do we know why it's getting pushed back? As I understand, and I'm pretty sure I read this in Game Informer a while back, the sticking point on Sony's approval side was Playmore insistance to sell MS3 as a full price new release. The game is four years old for christ sake! Sony's position was that if they were willing to sell it as a lower priced title or a multi game pack (like Playmore did with the recent King Of Fighters release) there would be no problem. Frankly, I think that's a sensible position to take. As much as I love Metal Slug, the fact of the matter is most gamers aren't going to be willing to pay full price for a four year old game designed for early 90s hardware.

If people are so worked up over this, why not mod and import? I mean PS2 MS3 has been out for a while in Japan. Even better, get a Neo and then you can play the whole series. And don't give me the "I can't afford a Neo Geo" bit. I've done it, others here have done it. If you are such a fan of the 2d games, why not get a fantastic 2d console?

And can someone please tell me other than legacy series (such as Metal Slug and Megaman) and handhelds, who exactly is developing 2d games these days? I'll admit, I don't know that many people in the industry, but all the ones I've talked to have no interest whatsoever in doing 2d games anymore. Everytime this subject comes up, people make it sound like there's all these great 2d games that mean old Sony won't let come out, but it just seems to me like the amount of 2d games being created for home consoles is very low these days, period, and the ones that are released probably wouldn't sell that well over here even if they were in 3d.

[spooie]

No... you aren't being a smart ass.

IGN.com reported on Sony passing Viewtiful Joe a week or two back. <a href=http://ps2.ign.com/articles/497/497729p1.html?fromint=1>CLICK HERE</A>. A direct quote...

According to IGN's sources, both games were showed to Sony Computer Entertainment America last summer, but Sony turned them down, responding that neither game showed off the PS2's technical strengths well and that Sony might look at them at a later date. Since sales of Viewtiful Joe were respectable for GameCube, it's possible SCEA changed its mind and is indeed considering bringing the cool 2D action game to PS2.

G4TV had a Megaman episode of "Icons" where a few industry insiders and other gaming sources openly talked about Sony's anti-2D Policies for the first time that I'm aware of. It's been known to many companies and gaming outlets for years now, but nobody really wanted to step forward and acknoweledge it... including Sony. They talked how they refused to let the PSX games come out originally, until they found out Sega was getting it and made them give them an extra "boost" with the 10th anniversary fluff, and about how Legends was a special "gift" to Sony to compensate for support the MegaMan games. And so on.

I'd find out when the episode airs again for you, but both g4tv.com and g4media.com seem to be down right now.

MANY early issues of PSM (and I believe GamePro and EGM as well) talked about SCEA constantly trying to push back and prevent sprite driven sidescrollers from coming out... including Castlevania SOTN at one point in time. As for Ys... well, that's fairly common knoweledge that they turned it down repeatedly. Metal Slug 3... feel free to check around for out the dates. It was released June last year in Japan... was supposed to hit the US by last November. Sony decided they weren't going to allow it. A couple months passed, and they agreed to it. Still announced for November again... then pushed back to February... then "indefinitely" over the summer. All the sudden, SNK announces it will be ported to Xbox. And what do you know? Now it's got a September release date on PS2, which is where is stands now. Sure... sony isn't making the game, but they do have the power to stall and hold SNK from getting the license.

Much like Megaman's 15th Anniversary on the Cube, if Metal Slug 3 wasn't announced for Xbox, we might not see it until the Playstation 7 comes out. Otherwise it would just get pushed back.

Trying to answer the rest...

Are you asking for 2D or for Sprite games? Because there are a steady amount of 2D games, like R-Type Final, Viewtiful Joe, Gradius V, Blowout, Contra, etc... still coming out. Seems to me that the only sprite games still coming out are SNK, Capcom and Sammy's fighting games... and a few rare RPG/Tactic games. And of course, good old Nintendo what with Wario Ware and Zelda: The 4 Swords on Cube.

It's a shame really... cause I'd take a poor quality NES title of any simply adequate current generation game anyday.

[DotCom]

Well, I have been playing games for close to 20 years myself, and I have a confession to make....

I not only BOUGHT Enter the Matrix, I PRE-ORDERED it.

And if that isn't enough....

I ENJOYED it!! I played the hell out of it!

I know it's not one of the most popular games to come out recently, but I liked it. I can't help it. In fact, I guess I'm guilty of playing other games that seem to bounce right off the shelves into the hands of 'casual' gamers. I like to play Madden every once in awhile just as much as I love searching endlessly for that copy of Jack Bros. for Virtual Boy.

I really don't see all this as a bad thing. The thing to remember is that not all video game players are collectors. While it does make me upset when I see my friends not take care of their PS2 and get mad when they have to buy a 2nd or even 3rd console, I have to keep telling myself that some people just don't take as much pride in video games as I do. That's what separates the collectors from the casual gamers, and what separates DP members from many other video game forum members. :)

EXACTLY. People think the N64 was nintendos first system, and when I show them my NES, they tell me to sell it and buy PS2 games because they call it a piece of shit. First of all, Nintendo is more well built, for god sakes, pS2 has a terrible DVD player and the hardware itself is bad. I still do like my PS2 though. But my point is gamers don't appreciate other systems, the classic systems, therefore seperating us from casual gamers.

[PapaStu]

BTW, anyone know how Metal Slug X did for PSX? I'd just like to know.

It did well for what it was. However it had a short print run (shocking) and has never been an easy find even when new. It was given rave reviews by the magazines when it came out, but SNK and Sony, have allways had a hard time mixing. Maybe because of the power of SNK in Japan itself??? I really don't know.

[spooie]

I found a brand new Metal Slug X for $30 at QVC.com last year... they used to have a lot of older, obscure PSX titles some time ago. Also has Castlevania Chronicles for $20 Not so sure now.

But no one ever thinks to check there. ;)

[ManekiNeko]

They talked how they refused to let the PSX games come out originally, until they found out Sega was getting it and made them give them an extra "boost" with the 10th anniversary fluff, and about how Legends was a special "gift" to Sony to compensate for support the MegaMan games. And so on.

The moment that Sony demanded to be appeased with a 3D Mega Man game was the moment that Capcom and other third party licensees should have left Sony en masse. Sony is nothing, NOTHING, without its licensees. The Playstation wouldn't have lasted more than a year without them. The incredible arrogance of Sony making demands from the companies responsible for keeping them in business is almost too much to comprehend.

Third parties need to put the hammer down on Sony the next time they act like this. If all the licensees migrate to other consoles, Sony would be finished in the video game business, no matter how much money they spent promoting the next accursed Playstation system. Good grief, how can you read news like this and NOT hate Sony for it?

JR

[Mr Mort]

I basically just cut & pasted what I said in this thread:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29999&highlight=

You can flame me to death for all I care, but I honestly feel that Sony and the PS are partially responsible for the amazing boom in the video game industry since the 16-bit era, and making video games a mainstream form of entertainment on the same level as movies and music. On the downside, I also feel they are partially responisble for the stagnation of the industry and lowering the bar of quality and making mediocrity the norm.

Sony made their core audience not the folks who are already gamers, but instead targeted the rest of the population who were not gamers. Using the Sony brand name, it was easy. Sony was/is a household name, and no one traditionally thought of them as a toy manufacturer. Making a video game system, they targeted adults, and if it's a video game system by Sony, than in the public's eye it was a toy for adults. By introducing a whole new audience that had never had experience with gaming to the industry, they were able to take mediocre titles, and market them as the best the industry has to offer. Since many of the mainstream public did not have much experience with gaming, they believed these half-ass titles were in fact A+ calibur titles. How would they know what a good game is if they never really played one? If you had never seen a motion picture before, and I made you watch Attack of the Killer tomatoes, and told you it ws the best movie ever made, you would have no basis of comparison... They (Sony) lowered the bar for all of us, making mediocre titles now the top-selling titles. Coutnless sequels and uninspired knock offs later, here we are.

Yes, gaming is more popular now than ever, and yes there are many more games coming out than ever, but I truly feel that there are fewer and fewer quality and innovative titles coming out when compared to the mediocre and poor titles. That is the price for having video games being in mainstream culture.
No offense, but the music you hear on the radio and on MTV is not the music you want to hear, but only the music that is presented to you. No different with gaming. Remember the recent thread here regarding Sony and their reported snobbish attitude towards 2D games? There is a basis of truth there, and it has been documented in the past. I recall during the days of the PS, when Capcom had a number of 2D titles slated for the PS, including Mega Man 8 & X4, along with a few Street Fighter games, Sony was pushing developers to develop 3D games only, and there was a bit of bad blood between Capcom and Sony, and Sony finally backed down, and let Capcom release their games. I remember it clearly. It's no different now with Playmore/SNK, particularly Metal Slug 3. Do you really think it's a coincidence that MS3 no longer has a PS2 release date, and that SNK has just announced a number of titles on the Xbox? Again, it's someone else deciding what games we want, and Sony alone is not guilty of this. Remember Bernie Stolar of Sega, and his 5-star quality policy regarding domestic Saturn releases? That one worked great. Wave after wave of awesome japanese games got axed by SOA, while Sony was trying to axe some 2D titles...

As with music and movies, some executives are sitting down thinking which titles will appeal to the broadest audience possible in order to sell the most units. The easiest way to do that is eye candy, in-your-face marketing, and selling a product that is already established and accepted. Not innovation, not creativity. Developers are not encouraged to try new things, they are told to keep rehashing the same things because they are already established and accepted. They are not willing to risk the money to try creative or innovative cocepts.

If Sony had not brought gaming to the mainstream, then surely someone else would have, but nevertheless, they did, and in the process IMHO, made gaming a little lamer in the process.

If this post doesn't make sense to you, my apologies. If you're going to flame me, elaborate beyond the usual "YoU SuXXORz!!". If you feel my views are wrong, tell me WHY you feel they are wrong.



P.S. : Don't even try the ol' "you're a PS hater" routine. I have 48 PS games, 37 PS2 games, 2 PS systems, 2 PS2 systems, I don't discriminate when a good game comes out, I buy it & play it happliy.

[Push Upstairs]

EXACTLY. People think the N64 was nintendos first system, and when I show them my NES, they tell me to sell it and buy PS2 games because they call it a piece of shit. First of all, Nintendo is more well built, for god sakes, pS2 has a terrible DVD player and the hardware itself is bad. I still do like my PS2 though. But my point is gamers don't appreciate other systems, the classic systems, therefore seperating us from casual gamers.


I think the NES and PS2 are brother systems in that they both suffer from "dust collection syndrome".

[Captain Wrong]

@spooie, thanks for the legwork. Anytime this stuff comes up, it's nice to actually see sources backing up what people are saying.

And you raise an interesting point, are we talking just 2d or sprite games? A lot of the 2d games you mentioned did come out here. I guess I don't think of those as 2d, I prefer the 2.5D term for those as there is some 3d perspective to the game. But that's why I'm always scratching my head when people bitch about no 2d games getting released here and I'm like "where are they?" I'd stil be interested to know how many what I can 2.5D games weren't released here that would have had a fighting chance at selling just because they were not true 3d.

@ManekiNeko, much like the NES days when Nintendo was unleashing their own brand of arrogance on the third parties, they may not like it now, but they know which side their bread is buttered on. It's all about the dollar and, like it or not, the Playstation 2 is still the market leader and still where these companies make most their cash. It's amazing how much shit these companies are willing to swallow as long as the bottom line is good (witness the way most third parties dropped Nintendo like a wet food stamp when the N64 was clearly trailing the PSX.) It's all about the dollar and it always has been. Remember the "Nintendo Seal of Quality"? This shit is hardly new.

[Oobgarm]

Everytime this subject comes up, people make it sound like there's all these great 2d games that mean old Sony won't let come out, but it just seems to me like the amount of 2d games being created for home consoles is very low these days, period, and the ones that are released probably wouldn't sell that well over here even if they were in 3d.

Incredibly true. It's one thing that's always overlooked when this stuff comes up.

Honestly, if you're that upset about the direction gaming is headed, and how certain games aren't coming out here, contact the companies involved and tell them what you think. Crying about it here isn't going to help. To be honest, writing them probably wouldn't further the cause much, but at least you can say "I tried".

A question for those who are "anti-Sony", or jaded about modern gaming: Do you go into a videogame store and look to purchase only the games that you think will better the industry? Do you purchase niche titles just so you can say "I helped turn the tide of the great videogame war?"

I would guess that you look for games that are fun. Everyone's definition of fun is different. While SF previously mentioned that he'd like a game with tentacles and skirts, I don't think I'd personally enjoy it. But I don't see him pushing his ideals on me like many of the other folks have been regarding the evils of the modern gaming scene. I look at this issue like I look at hot button topics like religion, homosexuality, etc:

Do what you want, believe what you want; don't push your ideals on me and we'll get along fine.


If people are so worked up over this, why not mod and import? I mean PS2 MS3 has been out for a while in Japan. Even better, get a Neo and then you can play the whole series. And don't give me the "I can't afford a Neo Geo" bit. I've done it, others here have done it. If you are such a fan of the 2d games, why not get a fantastic 2d console?

This goes for all games, not just MS3. If you consider yourself to be a "hardcore" gamer, for lack of a better term, you've probably already done it. Even those folks who don't have a lot of money will find a way to get what they want if they're passionate enough about it.

I think if you're this disillusioned about all of this, maybe you should sit this round out. Perhaps gaming doesn't have anything to offer you at this point. Bask in the glory of what you consider to the "golden age". Have a good time playing the games you love.

Look at how many gamers here love the old games, and play little of the new stuff. Gaming has just evolved to a level that they're not interested in keeping up with. But they're having fun with what they've got.

Isn't having fun what this hobby is all about? It seems that people are more interested in complaining than enjoying, regardless of what console they're on.

[jaydubnb]

OK here goes:
I have set on the sidelines and read many interesting and intelligent posts and opinions on this great forum. I am under the impression that the majority of ppl here have been playing or collection videogames for as long as I have (over twenty years) and are as passionate and involved in this great, fun hobby of ours as I am.
Therefore I hope that all others here will read this post with an open mind and respond with thier opinions and not go on a flaming rampage respectively.
What once was considered a small geek hobby has truthfully become a billion dollar industry, now shouldnt this be a great thing for gamers everywhere,yes, is it in truth a positive thing NO heres why: Casual gamers have been and are destroying this hobby with mass purchases of games like Superman 64(yes it did actually sell well back in the 32-bit,64-bit days) and ENTER THE MATRIX! While great or even experimental games like Beyond good and evil and Prince of Persia collect dust on the shelves.
So in the end we reap what we sow right? meaning we get more crap games shoved down our throats as all the Sony Brainwashed minions purchase more PS2's to replace the one that they bought only 6 months ago since theres "broke again".
That then leads us to SONY the 2-D hatin company that thinks its $hit dont stink. Xbox and Gamecube owners get just a little more 2-D goodness thanks to Sony's new policies but in the end that same policy is killing any true experimentation that has always kept this hobby an interesting one.
Does anyone think that Viewtiful Joe would be released on the PS2 if it wasnt already a hit on Gamecube?
My message to all here that actually think of videogames as more than a passing phase or a drunken night playing Madden at their buddies house is this: we do have the power to change things for the better, to reclaim our hobby from the uncleansed masses that follow Sony with blind faith.
To buy the great and experimental games and let the crap copy cat games like True crime be the ones to set and collect dust on the shelves.
LATER GAMERS!!!

Dude, this is an Old Topic. Licensed games like "Enter the Matrix" and "Superman" have been sucking ass since the beginning of time (see NES' X-Men, Friday the 13th, Atari's ET, etc) and I'm sure that some of them have sold a nice penny. Its just the nature of the business. Just buy what makes your joystick happy and let the "uncleaned masses" have their games. Its like the movie industry; for every five star classic, there's gonna be at least one direct to video slaher movie starring Eddie Furlong. But there are people to enjoy 'em. There's enough to go around. As for the 2D, sure there arent any modern systems with strong 2d libraries, but hey, unless you've played every non 3D game in existance there are still some new to you. Grab a Saturn and any system before that and have a blast. That's what I do as I'm not a fan of much of the current stuff.

My 2c's.

http://www.geocities.com/jaydubnb/deadhorse.gif

No, 3! :P

[Achika]

I'm just wondering why everyone is crying "how evil sony is" When there are publishers and developers to think about. What is stopping them from developing for another system, or porting a japanese ps2 game to a different system?

If sony was truely so evil, you'd think the companies would get smart and put the game on a different platform just to get it out there. People are crying over how MS didn't get properly ported to PS2 or PSX within their personal timeline of how "things are supposed" to happen, so why didn't SNK just bypass the Sony system all together, knowing their strict guidlines on localization and move to Gamecube or Xbox? If you don't like MS, replace that with your publisher and developer of choice.

If they don't like it, they can go across the street. It may cost more money to get it to you (porting & localization), but they are doing it just for the niche fans right?

I agree there is some real poo on both the PS2 and PS One, but with all the games out there, I can't help but wonder if Sony has an open door to give people a great chance, but you have to accept that things do get declined.

[spooie]

If anyone is still interested, I was able to set the timer to tape the MegaMan ICONS episode that aired earlier today. I transcribed part of the episode, so you can see the stuff about Sony and the whole 2D/3D thing...

ICONS NARRATOR: By 1997 Nintendo has retired their Super Nintendo, and Sony's Playstation is sending shockwaves through the industry. But Sony isn't exactly embracing MegaMan with open arms.

CHRIS BIENIEK [Editor in Chief, Tips and Tricks]: I don't know if Sony has ever spoken about this policy on the record, but it's pretty well known that on the early days of Playstation they really much wanted to differenciate the Playstation hardware with everything else that had come before it. And what that meant in a nutshell was 3D games as opposed to 2D games, which is what the Super Nintnedo and Genesis was really known for.

JASON WILSON [Senior Editor, Tips and Tricks]: Sony does not like 2D games. That is very important to understand, from their original standpoint on the Playstation. And it was important for Capcom to continue it's formula of what worked, and 2D was what worked for them, so they originally did not want to do much for the Playstation because Sony did not want them to do anything for them.

CB: When Capcom approached them with MegaMan for the Playstation in the US, then Sony shot them down.

IN: Capcom still moves ahead and to mark the 10th Anniversary of the Blue Bomber, they decide to release MegaMan 8, an update for the classic series, for the Sega Saturn. Fearing the competition, Sony also agrees to release the game --BUT, they have a condition.

CB: And Sony insisted that the Playstation version of MegaMan 8 have something different, special, additional, that the Saturn version didn't have. They ended up including a commemerative booklet that showed all the different boss characters from various MegaMan games. Just so that Sony can say "Hey, the Playstation version has got something that the Saturn version doesn't have!"

IN: MegaMan finally arrives on Sony's console, but his next jump will be an unexpected one. In 1998, Capcom follows up Megaman's arrival on the Playstation by agreeing to Sony's Demand for a new look at the little robot. But the overhaul will take some work.

CB: Megaman Legends is definitely, I would say is the most underrated MegaMan game. I mean, it took MegaMan kicking and screaming into 3D gaming.

IN: Unfortunately, many don't agree.

JW: The graphics were not state of the art, and they were decent at the time, and still the fans picked up on. It didn't sell as well as the 2D games, but it was something that at least made Sony happy, which is 3D on their platform.

:-P

[jdc]

Casual gamers are the ones who pay the bills these days and they've stated loudly about what they want. They want sensationalism.

Sony has delivered. You can't really fault them for making hay while the sun shines. If it was your company you'd likely do the same. You have to think of it from a business viewpoint, not a passionate one.

I got tired of the sensationalist games as well.....so I fired up my Genesis. There's no point in letting the state of the market bother you. It'll reinvent itself eventually.

[vincewy]

I don't blame Sony, I blame American Culture in general. I look at the Japan top ten and the English top ten for videogames and I see nice fun games like Mario Kart, Onimusha and Pokemon. I look at the American top ten and all I see is Grand Theft Auto, Manhunt, Madden and other mindless violent trash. The reason the video game industry is so lacking in innovation is that anything that isn't ultra violent doesn't sell.

LOL I actually had a laugh on this one, the prime example of our gaming culture is at Walmart, piles and piles of GTA and Madden sequals. When I look for niche, innovative titles, I check TRU. Sony of Japan is different, BTW, there're many 2D games released there without fuss. Look at Dreamcast, games are still made for it, reaching a lifespan of nearly 6 years, I'm seriously thinking of collecting Japanese games only for the next console, pretty much all the games I want to pick up now on PS2 and GC are Japanese ports.

The ONLY thing I give Sony credit is they made gaming much more affordable, it's the first company introducing Greatest hits titles for $20, compared to $70 for the new NES, SNES, and N64 releases.

[Achika]

The ONLY thing I give Sony credit is they made gaming much more affordable, it's the first company introducing Greatest hits titles for $20, compared to $70 for the new NES, SNES, and N64 releases.

Perhaps it wasn't much of a price break (perhaps $10-20?), but Nintendo had Player's Choice on SNES, N64, and Gameboy atleast and Sega had the Greatest Hits (I'm blanking on the exact name of the equivalent) for Genesis.

[portnoyd]

Sega had the Greatest Hits (I'm blanking on the exact name of the equivalent) for Genesis.

Mega Hits. And NES had the Classic Series (granted, just 3 games). And why not make a case for late red releases on the 2600?

It's funny, early on, there was a lot of "Let it die, damnit!" talk about the thread, but now we're discussing good and hard. Say it's overdone, but everyone is very passionate about this topic. I think topic #45 is well deserved. ;)

Concerning the Icons quotes, let's not forget that Jason Wilson is our own DreamTR, one of the biggest NES collectors (read: 2D) there is. Although I don't know Chris B at all, but I'm fairly sure he's along the same veins as Jason. I'm not trying to attack what they said, but there might be a little bias in their speech. ;)

My opinions, and evidence for, fall into place with those already said. (Opinion: Sony pretty much eats a dick)

dave

[Aussie2B]

Dont get me wrong i Love those 2D games, but you cant show the gaming power orr innovations of your system, when your SNES or Saturn can do the exact same game, and make it look just as good.

Name one original (ie non-classic compilation) 2D game that could be ported to SNES or Saturn completely intact. I hate this kind of mentality... It's like how at my college's arcade these dumbass ghetto kids will come in, and upon viewing a Neo Geo game they'll say "That shit looks like Super Nintendo!" That's total BS. If the SNES, Saturn, PSX, and Dreamcast couldn't handle Neo Geo games perfectly, then they sure as hell wouldn't have a prayer of a chance doing a PS2 game, 2D or not, decently. Look at Disgaea or Culdcept. Do you think SNES could do those backgrounds, those special effects, those character photos, etc.? Maybe SNES could handle the barebones character sprites, but even then they'd have to loose tons of frames of animation. The fact of the matter is that these modern consoles could do AMAZING things with 2D, things never capable on older consoles, but consumers and the hardware companies are holding them back. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night was a stunning game, but sadly, I think that's about the peak of modern 2D gaming. No one cares to see just how far 2D can be taken, except the tiny minority of old-school gamers.

Getting back to the original topic, truth be told, I hate Sony. I despise their business tactics and their shoddy hardware. The only reason I have their systems is for the third party games. However, while Sony is a big problem by being so restrictive to developers, I think another huge factor is the cost of modern day game development. Gone are the days when a small team of a few people could make an awesome game in a garage or basement. Games cost millions to make, so who can afford taking risks? More so than the lack of 2D games, I'm annoyed by the lack of original, innovative titles. I know I'm not the only one sickened by the amount of sequels out there, but most consumers just stick their bowl out and ask for more. I'm the only fan of the company tri-Ace that I know of who DOESN'T want them to make a Star Ocean 4 or Valkyrie Profile 2 as their next title. Give me a new game already.

[Push Upstairs]

Both the Saturn and the Playstation make me giggle with joy when i see a 2D game on them. My mind just goes nuts thinking about what the games i played on Genesis and SNES would have looked like even on those systems.


2D or 3D doesnt matter, just pass me a great game.

[PapaStu]

Dont get me wrong i Love those 2D games, but you cant show the gaming power or innovations of your system, when your SNES or Saturn can do the exact same game, and make it look just as good.

Name one original (ie non-classic compilation) 2D game that could be ported to SNES or Saturn completely intact. I hate this kind of mentality... It's like how at my college's arcade these dumbass ghetto kids will come in, and upon viewing a Neo Geo game they'll say "That shit looks like Super Nintendo!" That's total BS. If the SNES, Saturn, PSX, and Dreamcast couldn't handle Neo Geo games perfectly, then they sure as hell wouldn't have a prayer of a chance doing a PS2 game, 2D or not, decently. Look at Disgaea or Culdcept. Do you think SNES could do those backgrounds, those special effects, those character photos, etc.? Maybe SNES could handle the barebones character sprites, but even then they'd have to loose tons of frames of animation. The fact of the matter is that these modern consoles could do AMAZING things with 2D, things never capable on older consoles, but consumers and the hardware companies are holding them back. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night was a stunning game, but sadly, I think that's about the peak of modern 2D gaming. No one cares to see just how far 2D can be taken, except the tiny minority of old-school gamers.

I do agree with you, but thats not how Sony really looks at it. Do you think that they are sitting there and saying well we can do a complete port of this 2D game and make it just like the arcade, or are they thinking something along the lines of a level of newness or innovation that a game pushing 3D power invokes on the general gaming populous. They want something NEW to push to get more people to buy the games, to buy their systems, to allow for better market share. Because they do see these dumb assed arcade kids that sit there and go "That looks like a fucking SNES game" They dont want people to think Wow that PS2 with all that power, can play a flippin SNES game. They really want people to think that hell theres a Lion under that hood, not a kitten.

True, there would be loss, but most of it would be some of that extra graphic "prettyness". Yes Culdecept or Disgaea (on SNES or something similar) couldnt handle the game with out lost frames, and poorer sound. Most Capcom fighters cant even be ported to the PSOne intact. Look at Marvel Super Heroes, a complete lack of tag partners in 2plr mode. Shit even Aplha 3 for the PSOne isnt a complete port from the arcade, and that is like one of the BEST fighting games on that system. The problem for these arcade ports is that there is a bigger and better cpu's and engine's to power them, better graphics cards, and more ram to keep them playing and on a direct load, compared to the limitations of what the ram can hold the graphics card that is less capable, and a different archecture for the system to even play the games.

2D can be taken as far as a developer is willing to take it, and it is a beautiful meduim of gaming. But at the same time 3D rendering is getting better and better, they are getting more with less (think Halo 2 and what they are doing with the polygon count dropping, and better rendering, making the game look better, hell most developers think more is better, this is showing that less can actually be better. There are lower polygon counts for Halo 2 than there were for Halo itself). Its a loosing battle as has been said before, the companies are not looking for Niche gamers now, most focus on the gen-pop, where the greater possibility of better money is. But at the same time, as these developers get success, they are more willing to port off titles, try something new and different and give games to those niche gamers.

[Nature Boy]

I for one applaud Sony for setting some standards. And I agree with them - nobody is going to want to spend $300 on launch day for a machine that isn't the latest and greatest. And 2D is *not* pushing the envelope of what today's machines can do.

I like 2D games with the best of 'em, but I'll never understand this *hatred* people have towards 3D games. Yeah some of 'em don't work right. But there were plenty of 2D games back in the day that didn't work right either (just for different reasons). Games (like everything) will evolve. And there are some *damn* good 3D games and genres out there that didn't exist in the 'good old 2D era.'

Would we have had The Crash if Atari's standards were a bit higher perhaps?

[NintendoMan]

I don't blame Sony, I blame American Culture in general. I look at the Japan top ten and the English top ten for videogames and I see nice fun games like Mario Kart, Onimusha and Pokemon. I look at the American top ten and all I see is Grand Theft Auto, Manhunt, Madden and other mindless violent trash. The reason the video game industry is so lacking in innovation is that anything that isn't ultra violent doesn't sell.

I noticed the top 10 difference as well. I think it's complete shit at what people are buying!

But please keep in mind, those are the games that I prefer, Sonic - Mario - Pikmin - Spinx - etc.
I don't like those mindless pointless, stupid as all shit games. But again, that's just my opinion and everybody has theirs. Not everyone likes innocent, not killing everything in site videogames. 8-)