Thanks DP...Searchable Database helps me make a find!

[Goodwill Hunter]

I've been playing with the new Databse Search (there in the upper left of your screen, you really should give it a try if you haven't yet) and have found it very fast, powerful and easy to use. Kudos to DP...if this is the beta, I can't wait for the real thing! Depending on what parameters you set, you can quickly generate an amazing variety of lists of information.

I naturally gravitated to the seach by rarity, and started going through the various systems I collect for. First thing I learned was that there aren't many 10's out there, escpecially for the newer systems. If you're going to do a "greater than or equal to" rarity search, I'd start with a 7. For the 32x, for example, a >=7 search only produces Spiderman Web of Fire.

Did an SNES rarity search at 9 or better, and found that only the 2 competition carts make that grade. Went down to 8, and four more carts came up...Chavez II, MBR/Speed Racer, Zero the Kamikazee Squirrel...wait a minute, Zero has been at a local game store for months, and I never gave it a second thought!

I rushed out to the store, sure that it would now be snatched up instantly after sitting there untouched for months. But it was still there, complete and in mint condition for $9.99...a game described as one of the hardest SNES games to find complete!

I never would have realized it if it wasn't for the new database. So thanks again DP...the new DB kicks ass!

Rich

[orrimarrko]

Problem is, and this was supposed to be fixed over a year ago, the SNES rarity was acknowledged as too high.

The Genesis version is the harder to find of the two, and the SNES version should have a rarity level of R5.

Here's the link:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6070&highlight=zero+squirrel

and Portnoyd's quote:

Whoooops!

On further research, I got my wires crossed. The SNES version of Zero should be a R5, at $12. However, the Genesis version is the really rare one (due to comparison research I found 1 Genny Zero vs 8+ SNES Zeros, and I will talk to the Gen DP editors about it. Next time I get a revision in, it'll change. Sorry

dave


So, not to rain on your parade, but it seems as though the first flaw has been found with the database.

I hope that someone will fix it at this point. Misinformation costs money!! LOL

Steve

[crashdummycow01]

DOH! lol... atleast u didnt pay over $12 for it lol

[§ Gideon §]

Jeez. I was real happy for ya... I suppose I still am; R5 isn't too common. It's not a very fun game, though.

[badinsults]

Yeah, it is definitely not that rare. It is a pretty awesome game, though, and I want it...

[digitalpress]

Problem is, and this was supposed to be fixed over a year ago, the SNES rarity was acknowledged as too high.

That's probably my fault. With the installation of the online database I've been juggling online version / local version / book version in addition to trying to stay on top of 30 + editors' portable files. I think I'm back in sync with everything after this weekend's master database refresh, so the next time we load the online files, it should be corrected.

[D_N_G]

there is absolutely no way this game is an R5, this game lies DEFINITELY R8 or minimum R7

with that being said try to find a complete copy

the issue in that post referenced above was discussed and after viewing all factors and evidence, The rarity on this title will remain until there can be provided evidence otherwise

Austin

[Goodwill Hunter]

Does this mean I qualify for credit as a bug tester in the final release? :?

Oh well,
Rich

[portnoyd]

The quote in reference was from a thread a year ago, that ended without a resolve on the thread itself. I talked to Austin, who I work with on SNES, and we decided to leave things as they were. It wasn't changed because we decided not to change it at the time. Lapse of judgement on my part when I made that reply - I was fairly shocked I even said that back then!

dave

[orrimarrko]

there is absolutely no way this game is an R5, this game lies DEFINITELY R8 or minimum R7

with that being said try to find a complete copy

the issue in that post referenced above was discussed and after viewing all factors and evidence, The rarity on this title will remain until there can be provided evidence otherwise

Austin

You can certainly keep it at whatever rarity level you please, of course.

However, just so you know, I'm not a big SNES collector yet, but I found an absolutely flawless, MINT complete copy (and I do mean 100% complete) at a Gamestop for $4.99 on a random day. It was just sitting there with a couple of other MINT complete games. This was about a year or so ago.

Within the same week, at another Gamestop, I got the Genesis version - again complete, and in absolutely pristine condition. Price - $1.99. So I have both, as new as can be, just not sealed. Both combined cost less than $8.00. I wasn't even trying to look for them, but there they were.

In my humble opinion, if you are going to rate something as a R7 or R8, I shouldn't be able to find them, in basically new condition, at my local Gamestop.

Again, just my opinion.

Steve

[jonjandran]

As a voice from the other side of the fence.

In all my years collecting , I've never even seen a loose copy of the Snes or Genesis version of Zero the Kamikazee Squirrel .

That makes it kind of rare in my book.

[Shady Smurf]

I've played it, and seen it at friends house, but i've never found loose copies or complete copies anywhere in the wild

[D_N_G]

Other members on this board (GoodWillHunter) should'nt be able to go to their local game store/Gamestop and Find a Donkey Kong Country Competition cart and a Starfox weekend cart in the same month. Guess we should rate the rarity there at 5 as well for each of those according to the logic you have provided.


Your case is an exception not the norm. Congratulations on the find of two of the most rare games for modern consoles. Also,Thank you for Your Opinion on the matter

[hydr0x]

In my humble opinion, if you are going to rate something as a R7 or R8, I shouldn't be able to find them, in basically new condition, at my local Gamestop.

sorry but this is total *****, just think about it, even R9 are games that were actually produced and published, and every game that was published CAN BE FOUND, but the chances are very very low for the high rarities

here are the definitions forR6 to R9:

-6: We categorized these as ?items we?ve eventually found but had to give up something really good in a trade or paid good $$$ for it?.
-7: RARE. A true collectible! Sevens and up represent the ?hardest? 25% of the games listed in this Guide.
-8: We consider these the items you?ll never find by chance (except in those legendary lucky finds!). There are a few eights in this Guide that we haven?t gotten our grubby little hands on... yet.
-9: The centerpiece of a collection make up the nines. If you ever hope to BUY one of these, prepare to write out a big check.

you already see the problem there, R6 is too much based on trade meets or whatever, you an always find a game cheap, heck, if you are lucky you'll find a DarXide for 3? on a flea, R7 is not really defined at all, R8 has a huge exception in it and R9 is again not very accurately defined

i know these are just guidelines but every game WAS released, you can't just say, well i found it, then it can't be higher than R6, that's bullshit

[Ed Oscuro]

In my humble opinion, if you are going to rate something as a R7 or R8, I shouldn't be able to find them, in basically new condition, at my local Gamestop.

sorry but this is total *****, just think about it, even R9 are games that were actually produced and published, and every game that was published CAN BE FOUND, but the chances are very very low for the high rarities
I have to be in total agreement here. Unfortunately a number of people lose faith in the DP database when they find something out on the far reaches of the bell curve. Regional differences can make a difference (i.e. southern Enlgand vs. the north).

On another note, this is why I've been loath to pretend I have any business helping out with rarity lists for import products...I feel the quality of the lists is high enough that I would hate to add information that would bring that quality down.

In any case, you should be using your own head for prices more than the guide, because it's good practice. 'sides, people become wary seeing you lug a price book around.


i know these are just guidelines but every game WAS released, you can't just say, well i found it, then it can't be higher than R6, that's bullshit
Again, very true.

As for the price of this cart, consider that my local Goodwill charges less for a Model 2 SNES than it does (heavily used) Genesis 2 and used NES toasters. I found Pac-Man 2 for the same amount I found Platoon, RBI Baseball, Tecmo Bowl and other common NES titles. Places might have a general idea what to charge for different types of games, but they have to average out to catch all the expensive stuff they don't know the value for -- that or they don't even try (like Goodwill).

[digitalpress]

Well now, THIS has become a rather interesting and lively thread, hasn't it?

Let me tell ya something. Doing this stuff for over ten years, I've seen thousands of these arguments. Usually they're between our team editors. Oddly enough, most of the combatants here ARE team editors, making this the first public dispute of a DP rarity rating. So welcome, everyone, to my world.

I'm not much of a SNES collector, I have all the games I want but haven't even begun to work out the details of completing the collection. Still, I've never seen Zero the Kamikazee Squirrel "in the wild". I can also say that Portnoyd and D_N_G really know their stuff in this regard, they spend a great deal of time studying the trends of the system. Does that mean their rating matches yours? No. Does it mean that their rating is in general going to be accurate, taking into account a national audience? I'm 100% certain.

It's not easy. I constantly challenge our editors on their numbers, and with our contract with Manci Games, even more so now. NO guide is the bible, as we clearly state on all of our products (even in the FAQ when you use the online database) and numbers change over time - from my experience, they get more solid after about 15 years of a systems' demise, which puts SNES in that "ripening" period. Our upcoming book will NO DOUBT have scores of challenges, and will NO DOUBT need rarity values changed just weeks after its release, but that's the nature of the beast. It's why we've stuck to older systems for so long. It's why we do a book every two years.

Anyway, that's my random thought. Nothing new, but always welcome - feedback regarding your experiences vs. ours are all taken into account. I'd be very suprised if Portnoyd and D_N_G haven't already done a perimeter search on that game today, including all of their 'net resources and contacts and even then... even THEN... consider the change from an "8" to a "7".

OK that's all from me for now. Carry on!

[hydr0x]

Anyway, that's my random thought. Nothing new, but always welcome - feedback regarding your experiences vs. ours are all taken into account. I'd be very suprised if Portnoyd and D_N_G haven't already done a perimeter search on that game today, including all of their 'net resources and contacts and even then... even THEN... consider the change from an "8" to a "7".

OK that's all from me for now. Carry on!

talking about net resources, does anyone here know a free tool for Ebay Analysis ?? i know of the "real" programs but i'm not willing to pay money on this. it would help me a bit to decide on some dreamcast rarities as almost 90% of all dc games in circulation are offered on ebay

[§ Gideon §]

I don't mean to add fuel to the fire, but I'm pretty certain that I also saw Kamikaze at a GameStop within the past 6 weeks. As a matter of fact, the only reason I'm not 100% sure is all of this talk about its rarity.

[Darth Vader]

I'm totally with DNG on this one. As a person who had owned 3000+ SNES titles, it wasn't in the mix of games I owned until I bought it off of ebay. This game was one of the last ones that I needed to get. The rating is quite accurate at an 8. If you find this in the wild, complete, you are very lucky.

On a side note, I got to meet Rich today and see his collection. What a nice guy and cool collection! That gave me some good ideas for setting up my own. :) I'm looking forward the midwest classic in May to see you there!

I also had the chance to see the game in question and it looks like brand new, it is beautiful and a great snag for $10!

Danny

[orrimarrko]

Other members on this board (GoodWillHunter) should'nt be able to go to their local game store/Gamestop and Find a Donkey Kong Country Competition cart and a Starfox weekend cart in the same month. Guess we should rate the rarity there at 5 as well for each of those according to the logic you have provided.

Austin - your point is well taken. Perhaps my example wasn't the best, but it was grounded in reality. Rare or not, I wasn't even looking for them, but found them without even trying. Since then, I haven't even tried to find them.

However, your arguement is flawed. It is factual that both Competition carts were limited releases (2500 or so on the average.) Finding one in the wild doesn't change that, and thus would be R9 level games regardless of where you find them. I would hardly categorize Zero in the same sentence with those two games, and yet, we are for some reason.

My original reply was to refer to Portnoyd's post regarding the error in Rarity for the SNES. If you two have since discussed it and changed your mind, so be it. I can honestly give a crap less, I just want the number to be accurate.

The original number was an R8, then it went to R7 (on the listing from a while ago), Dave's post said it should be a R5, and now it's back to an R8.??

So, you can obviously understand that this is somewhat confusing. Again, I don't care what the rarity level is - the higher, the better for me - great!

By the way, Hydrox - you don't have to spell out the rarity "definitions" like I'm some kind of NOOB. I know how this works, but EBAY isn't the end-all, be-all for sources of information.

I live in Texas. The first WEEK that I printed off the DP guide for SNES, I went to my local game stores. I found AND bought THREE copies of CHAVEZ II (all loose, and in good condition.) I kept one, sold one to Cheesy (on this board) and traded the other to you Hydrox!!

So, it's a rarity level of R8. Not where I live. My whole point about this is that location and regionality have SO much to do with finding a title in the wild. Rare for you may not be rare for me, depending on where I live. EBAY doesn't reflect that at all.

I'm not knocking Austin or Dave or Danny or anyone else who takes the time to do the work - let me make that perfectly clear.

I know that rarity levels are somewhat subjective. Accuracy is all I care about. If the generally accepted rating for Zero is an R8 for SNES, cool. There just shouldn't be any confusion, that's all.

[hydr0x]

By the way, Hydrox - you don't have to spell out the rarity "definitions" like I'm some kind of NOOB. I know how this works, but EBAY isn't the end-all, be-all for sources of information.

I live in Texas. The first WEEK that I printed off the DP guide for SNES, I went to my local game stores. I found AND bought THREE copies of CHAVEZ II (all loose, and in good condition.) I kept one, sold one to Cheesy (on this board) and traded the other to you Hydrox!!

So, it's a rarity level of R8. Not where I live. My whole point about this is that location and regionality have SO much to do with finding a title in the wild. Rare for you may not be rare for me, depending on where I live. EBAY doesn't reflect that at all.



woo hoo wait a second, i NEVER said that rarities depend on how often games pop up on ebay, i just said that i need to analyze ebay too for the dreamcast list as (at least here in europe) almost all shops that still had dc games are selling them on ebay. i've got to consider that when deciding on rarities, i'm not in any way counting games and saying well, this was on ebay twice in a month, it's R3 or whatever. i'm going by production runs and experience in the wild (not only of me but of people all around europe)

of course rarities vary from region to region, but we are trying to find out overall rarities, that's one more reason you can ALWAYS find an R9 somewhere, you've just got to be lucky

i was just pointing out that your argument "i found it by accident, it can't be an R8" is absolute pointless, and i don't see anywhere that you proved me wrong....

btw i'm very thankful vor that Chavez II trade, still one of my 3 rarest games

[Goodwill Hunter]

So much for a simple thread praising one of the site's new features @_@


However, your arguement is flawed. It is factual that both Competition carts were limited releases (2500 or so on the average.) Finding one in the wild doesn't change that, and thus would be R9 level games regardless of where you find them. I would hardly categorize Zero in the same sentence with those two games, and yet, we are for some reason.

I live in Texas. The first WEEK that I printed off the DP guide for SNES, I went to my local game stores. I found AND bought THREE copies of CHAVEZ II (all loose, and in good condition.) I kept one, sold one to Cheesy (on this board) and traded the other to you Hydrox!!

So, it's a rarity level of R8. Not where I live. My whole point about this is that location and regionality have SO much to do with finding a title in the wild. Rare for you may not be rare for me, depending on where I live. EBAY doesn't reflect that at all.

Wouldn't your argument for the competition carts hold true for Chavez II as well? Just because you were lucky enough to find 3 carts at once doesn't change how many were produced. Perhaps the fact that it is a Spanish language cart and you live pretty close to the border is the "X-factor" here.

And am I the only sensing a VH1 special in the making?..."Tonight on VH1, "Making the Guide"...an intimate, behind the scenes look at what goes into producing the Classic Gaming reference masterpiece! You'll see the highs and the lows, the people that make it possible and the rarity fights that make it sizzle!"

I'd watch it... LOL
Rich

[SpasticFuctard]

*points at DP*

Henh! Henh!

SF - Builds the engine, not the content

[orrimarrko]

Wouldn't your argument for the competition carts hold true for Chavez II as well? Just because you were lucky enough to find 3 carts at once doesn't change how many were produced. Perhaps the fact that it is a Spanish language cart and you live pretty close to the border is the "X-factor" here.

Well then, by your logic, you're implying that there are roughly the same number of produced Chavez II carts as there were Zero carts for the SNES. How do you know this? Or that there were ALMOST as many of these two games made as the competition carts, which are rated as R9s?

And, Chavez II is not a Spanish language cart. I do not, however, disagree that it may be easier to find here than in Maine, because there are more Latin people here (who may have liked Chavez as a boxer.)

Regardless, my point is still valid. Regionality plays a HUGE factor in finding games in the wild. Unless you know the exact number produced, the only thing you have to go on is how many "pop-up", to estimate a title's rarity level. If one cart is sold per week by people in Ohio, and nowhere else, would it be fair to say that it's equally rare in Ohio as it is in Oregon?

For example. At the time that Mike Etler made the NES rarity list, he gave Stadium Events a fairly moderate rarity level. Reason was, he saw tons of them sealed at a Woolworth's department store. Woolworths are located in the Northeast - not the West, not the South. For him, the game was readliy available, and he rated it accordingly.

Although I have only lived in Texas for the past 5 years, if I were to try and find a Stadium Events in the wild, it may NEVER happen, due to regional issues. Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

Therefore, for me (in this example), Stadium Events would be a R9 - even by the loose definitions that we use for the guide. However, for Mike, or anyone else in the Northeast, it wouldn't.

Now, you can go back and forth with this particular example, and I realize it's a bad one, because there actually WAS limited production of the Stadium Events title. However, even though it's limited, someone in the Northeast may still have an easier time finding it than someone in Texas.

Unless you have the exact production run, you have to go on the numbers that present themselves on the various sources we have access to (this board, eBay, other internet sources, etc..) That automatically means that it's a subjective process, open to opinion. To AID with that opinion, you should most definitely take into account the experiences of everyone who have acknowledged finding the game.

So, should I consider myself lucky because I found three copies of a game you consider rare? Or, should you reconsider whether the game is as rare as you thought it was? According to what you're saying, I'm just a lucky guy. LOL

If I found a case of sealed Zero games tomorrow, does that make them less rare? It didn't change the production run, as they were part of the original number. There would only be 6 more sealed games than the day before, but that's still more than we thought there was. What if I kept them? So there's more, but not available to the public - thus no change "available in the wild".

I don't want to debate this until the cows come in, but there is more than one factor that should be considered when assigning a rarity level.

And yes, of course I realize that the Guide is just a guide, and that the contributors are doing their best, and that you can't say in the guide, "Title is rare in the Midwest, but readily available in the Southwest..." or some crap like that.

ALL I was trying to point out is this.

True R8 - R10 titles should be EXACTLY that. Stuff that is absolutely near impossible to find. Stuff that had true limited production runs. Things like the Competition carts, the NWC carts, several of the Atari 2600 games for example.

I say this because each title receives a cross-platform rarity level. A R5 is meant to be an R5 for SNES the same as it would be for Saturn, Vic-20 or Vectrex. An R5 for Vectrex should be EXACTLY as difficult to find as an R5 for SNES. That's how the Guide works (as it was explained to me.)

You don't assign rarity levels WITHIN a certain system's library. It's not, "Zero is harder to find than Fun N Games, so we'll assign it a R8 instead of a R7..." If Zero is a true R8, then it should be as hard to find as ANY R8 for ANY system.

I don't believe that this is the case.

So, unless it's been changed to assigning rarity as comparative WITHIN a system's library, I think that I'm done with my scribblings.

[D_N_G]

Once again thank you for your opinion and your regional input

[portnoyd]

This is one quite dead horse, looking quite bruised and beaten.

Quadrun is an R9. According to Steve Woita, there were 10,000 copies made. Stadium Events, according to Jason Wilson, when he talked to a contact at NOA, said the recorded production run was 2,000. By the logic of upholding cross-system rarities, the R9 rarity range would be 2,000 to 10,000, give or take.

By that logic, Fun N Games should be a R9. DNG has contacted former Tradewest employees regarding FNG - he did so because, before DP SNES was a thought, he was trying to find the fucking thing. One did not even know it was released for the SNES, and the other stated that 2,000 were produced. We have it, as a R8. Why? We think the game is rare, and one of the hardest games to find on the system, but not through the roof. The DKC cart numbers 2,500. It is an R9 due to distribution methods. Similar to FNG, but had the X-Factor that makes it tougher to find.

We don't know Chavez II and Zero production runs. We do know their X-Factors. Chavez II, intended for Spanish audiences. The back of the box is in Spanish! Zero, as with many late Sunsoft games, barely made it out before Sunsoft closed its US doors. These reasons are why they are both R8s, opposed to R7s. These factors should make it harder to find them.

And to mention, one time I found 2 Fun N Games at an EB. Does that mean it should be an R5? No.

If more copies of a game are found, it doesn't dilute the rarity. The Aladdin carts - available in full set, right now, and will be available, probably til we're old and grey - are set at an R7. Also, as more people collect a system, the more carts become in the class of harder to get their hands on. SNES collecting is in its infancy, as is Genesis. 4 years ago, it was much easier to snap up copies of Stadium Events... but look now.

You can't keep cross-system rarity in mind, without looking at the system itself. A 2600 R8, like Glib is gobbled up in the wild quickly, more collectors, more possible dolar value, more known info. Now take SNES. Chavez II, 3 copies, are sitting in the store you mentioned. You're not collecting SNES, so you pass them by until you read that they are hard to find, so you snap them up. Less collectors (for now), less dollar value (less competition), less known info. The productions runs are most likely similar in both cases.

Another case in point: Magic Boy. 3 years ago, you could not find this game at all. Period. Until one wholesaler unearthed many, many cases of it. Now you can get it for a song on eBay at pretty much any moment. It doesn't stop it from being a rare game.

All I'm saying is the following: (summary)
- Defending our rarity assignments for the top set of retail games on SNES
- How we feel cross-system rarity comes into play with SNES

And as a final note, on other games, we're still reviewing if our intial assessment is correct. (Like some Titus titles, Kid Kleetz, some Cybersoft titles, Mr Nutz, Dream TV, etc) The book is not printed yet and we haven't stopped working, you know. ;)

dave

[Darth Vader]

On the note of Chavez II, Dave. I'll check my box and see if it's in spanish. It's one of those boxes I have that are there, but don't look the greatest. I'll dig it out and post what I find.

@orrimarko: I hear what your saying about distribution patterns being somewhat regionalized, but as a whole the entire DP SNES rarity listing, is nearly dead on correct on all rarities, based off of my own experiences. (I think I have a thread about this in the collecting forum).

The only one or two that might be a bit off it MBR/SR, but it is already an 8 and the distribution chain has yet to be determined, let alone production run. Who knows if it becomes a Magic Boy, but I doubt it. If it doesn't show up in massive amounts on ebay in the next year, I doubt it ever will, considering the extremely high prices that the new/sealed ones have been hitting lately. That usually makes people more determined to find the stash of the game (kinda like how Magic Boy started showing up all over).

The only other game "might" be Hurricanes at an R7, but the only reason why I may think it is a little high is I had nearly 10 of these in my inventory of SNES games at one time. But honestly, that's being pretty picky and my only source of knowledge on that is my inventory buyout.

Just like any rarity list, it will get tweaked and fine tuned over the years as more information becomes available, but I can say the SNES rarity guide is off to an EXCELLENT start! :)

Danny

[Darth Vader]

We don't know Chavez II and Zero production runs. We do know their X-Factors. Chavez II, intended for Spanish audiences. The back of the box is in Spanish!

Once again Dave, you are correct. :) The back of my box has the game description in spanish, the only english on the back is the normal nintendo fine print at the bottom of the box.

Danny

[D_N_G]

Quote:
We don't know Chavez II and Zero production runs. We do know their X-Factors. Chavez II, intended for Spanish audiences. The back of the box is in Spanish!


Once again Dave, you are correct. The back of my box has the game description in spanish, the only english on the back is the normal nintendo fine print at the bottom of the box.

Danny

We verified on my copy before he posted :D ;)

[orrimarrko]

Guys, I hear what you are saying regarding the cross-system rarities.

I think it would be MUCH easier if it was WITHIN the system's library, just on its own. That way, someone who reads the guide can look at the list and say, "Great - this is the rarest handful of titles for the system."

An R8 would be an R8 for the SNES, but not necessarily for ALL systems.

But as I said before, that's not how it was explained to me. If that's how it is now, great! After all, it would make a hell of a lot of sense with your argument (Dave). In that case, I would completely agree with you.

I'm not doubting that you and Austin know your stuff - not at all. I think that where I was going was that with the way the rarity structure was set up, that an R8 was supposed to be an R8 across the board - not just respective to the title's library.

If it's been explained incorrectly to me, by all means brothas - set me free!