The classic computer RPG canon

[calthaer]

Hey guys,

One great thing about the old RPGs for classic computers (and one thing Bioware / Black Isle tried to sort of "resurrect" in their Infinity Engine) was the fact that you could take characters from one game and import them into an entirely different game.

I thought it might be really interesting to list which games were part of this collected "canon," and which games accepted which other games' characters. I'll start:

Might & Magic 2 (MM1)
Bard's Tale II (BT1)
Bard's Tale III (BT1, 2)
Dragon Wars (BT1, 2, 3)

I've been trying to check this out some more but it's hard to research without manuals and such. Other candidates, I believe, might be:

-Times of Lore
-Wasteland
-Mines of Titan
-Ultima series
-Wizardry series

Even when I run the games, it's not always clear from the options (and without a manual) which games can import which characters.

[Ze_ro]

Some of the SSI AD&D games let you import characters... but I'm not sure exactly what the rules were. I'm almost certain that Curse of the Azure Bonds let you import character from both Pools of Radiance and Hillsfar, but I'm not sure if this carried over into the later games consistently (Anyone know if you could cross characters between Forgotten Realms games (Curse, Pools, Silver Blades, etc) and Dragonlance games (____ of Krynn)?)

I don't think you can import characters between Ultima's... although for some reason, I have a feeling you might have been able to do so from Ultima IV to Ultima V... I'm probably wrong though. Since the Ultima games changed quite a bit between games, You'd probably only be able to preserve a characters name and class anyways, and Ultima III was the only one where you could actually roll for the stats for everyone in your party (IV and V had you ask NPC's to join you, and I and II were solitary adventures)

I don't think Wasteland did anything like this, since it was never part of a series.

--Zero

[Mayhem]

The later Bard's Tale game accepted Ultima and some other game's characters too I believe. Will check manuals, I have all three at home.

[Ze_ro]

Alright, I finally got off my lazy ass to read through some of the manuals for these games... here's what I have to contribute:

Pools of Radiance: No option for importing characters. No big surprise, since this was the first game in the series. You might be able to trick it into loading characters from Curse or one of the others (since they probably use similar save files), but this would almost certainly lead to problems if the characters had special weapons, or were certain classes or high levels.

Curse of the Azure Bonds: Allows you to import characters from previous Curse of the Azure Bonds adventures (I guess this means you can start the quest over again with the same characters you used to beat it), as well as Pools of Radiance and Hillsfar. If you are importing characters that were last used in Hillsfar, but were originally created in Pools or Curse, then you must also have the save disks from the original game when you import them (Yes, that sentance does make sense. It's what the manual says).

Hillsfar: I don't have a copy of this game, but the Curse of the Azure Bonds manual seems to imply that Hillsfar allows you to import characters from either Pools of Radiance or Curse of the Azure Bonds.

Secret of the Silver Blades: Allows you to import characters from Curse of the Azure Bonds (The manual makes no mention of Pools of Radiance or Hillsfar, but I imagine you can import those characters into Curse, and then into Silver Blades from there...)

Champions of Krynn: No options to import characters. I would imagine that Champions characters can be imported into Deathknights of Krynn, and that Deathknights characters can be imported into Dark Queen of Krynn, but I have no proof of this. As I had guessed, it seems that characters can not be transferred between Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance games.

In all cases, it seems that transporting a character between SSI games requires that (s)he leaves the previous party. So if you're in the middle of a Curse of the Azure Bonds adventure, and import a character to Hillsfar, then they can no longer be played in Curse of the Azure Bonds until you import them back into the game. Since the games don't allow you to import from future games, if you import a character from Pools to Curse, or from Curse to Silver Blades, you might not be able to reinsert them into the original game... the manual isn't clear on this. The idea is that you beat Pools, then take the same characters through Curse, and then through Silver Blades.

Ultima V: No options to import characters.

Ultima III: No options to import characters.

For all of the above games, I'm referring to the C-64 version... except for Ultima V, which is the Apple II version.

Anyone have any information on Eye of the Beholder (I doubt it allows importing, but it's a possibility), Pools of Darkness (Import from Silver Blades?), Gateway to/Treasures of the Savage Frontier (I would guess you can import Gateway characters into Treasures, but can you import anything into Gateway?), or the two SSI Buck Rogers games (Countdown to Doomsday and Matrix Cubed)?

--Zero

[TheSmirk]

I'm pretty sure that the Eye of the Beholder series allowed and incouraged importing of characters

[calthaer]

I know it sounds as if it would be very strange for Wasteland or some Sci-Fi game to import medieval characters...but I really thought I remembered some game doing just that. I'm trying to find some of these things out, but it's somewhat difficult. I don't always see an "import character" option in some of the games that I know have it.

[Charlesaway]

For Champions of Krynn -> Death Knights of Krynn -> Dark Queen of Krynn, you can import characters from the previous game.

I just checked my Eye of the Beholder II manual, and there was no mention of importing characters from the previous game, but that is not a definitive answer.

I also seem to recall, but will have to check that you could import characters into the Savage Frontier games from the other series... but I'm not sure.

[Ze_ro]

Ultima V: No options to import characters.

It seems I was wrong here! Just today I was testing out a new Apple II disk drive I had bought the other day, and was using Ultima V to do so... much to my surprise, it DOES have the option of importing Ultima IV characters! Strange that the manual made no mention of this :?

--Zero

[Great Hierophant]

Updated List:

Ultima Series
Ultima IV - Quest of the Avatar to Ultima V - Warriors of Destiny
Ultima IV - Quest of the Avatar or Ultima V - Warriors of Destiny to Ultima VI -
The False Prophet

Wizardry Series
Wizardry - Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord to Wizardry - The Knight of
Diamonds - The Second Scenario
Wizardry - Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord or Wizardry - The Knight of
Diamonds - The Second Scenario to Wizardry - Legacy of Llylgamyn - The Third Scenario
Wizardry - Bane of the Cosmic Forge to Wizardry - Crusaders of the Dark
Savant/Wizardry Gold
Wizardry - Crusaders of the Dark Savant/Wizardry Gold to Wizardry 8

Might and Magic Series
Might and Magic - Clouds of Xeen to Might and Magic - Darkside of Xeen

SSI Gold Box Series
Pool of Radiance or Hillsfar to Curse of the Azure Bonds
Curse of the Azure Bonds to Secrets of the Silver Blades
Secrets of the Silver Blades to Pools of Darkness
Champions of Krynn to Death Knights of Krynn
Death Knights of Krynn to Dark Queen of Krynn
Eye of the Beholder to Eye of the Beholder II - The Legend of Darkmoon
Eye of the Beholder II - The Legend of Darkmoon to Eye of the Beholder III -
Assault on Myth Drannor
Gateway to the Savage Frontier to Treasures of the Savage Frontier
Pool of Radiance or Curse of the Azure Bonds to Hillsfar

Bioware Infinity Engine Series
Baldur's Gate to Baldur's Gate II - Shadows of Amn

The Bard's Tale Series
Wizardry - Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord or Wizardry - The Knight of Diamonds - The Second Scenario or Wizardry - Legacy of Llylgamyn - The Third Scenario or Ultima III - Exodus to Tales of the Unknown Volume 1 - The Bard's Tale*
Tales of the Unknown Volume 1 - The Bard's Tale to The Bard's Tale II - The Destiny Kinght
Tales of the Unknown Volume 1 - The Bard's Tale or The Bard's Tale II - The Destiny Kinght to The Bard's Tale III - Thief of Fate
Tales of the Unknown Volume 1 - The Bard's Tale or The Bard's Tale II - The Destiny Kinght to Dragon Wars

Quest for Glory Series
Quest for Glory I/Hero's Quest - So You Want to be a Hero to Quest for Glory II - Trial by Fire
Quest for Glory II - Trial by Fire to Quest for Glory III - Wages of War
Quest for Glory III - Wages of War to Quest for Glory IV - Shadows of Darkness
Quest for Glory IV - Shadows of Darkness to Quest for Glory V - Dragon Fire

Temple of Apshai Series
Temple of Apshai to Upper Reaches of Apshai
Temple of Apshai to Curse of Ra

Alternate Reality Series
Alternate Reality - The City to Alternate Reality - The Dungeon

Warrior of RAS Series
Warrior of RAS Dunzhin to Warrior of RAS Kaiv
Warrior of RAS Kaiv to Warrior of RAS Wylde
Warrior of RAS Wylde to Warrior of RAS Ziggurat

Phantasie Series
Phantasie I to Phantasie II
Phantasie I or Phantasie II to Phantasie III - The Wrath of Nikademus

Dark Sun Series
Dark Sun - Shattered Lands to Dark Sun - Wake of the Ravager

Magic Candle Series
The Magic Candle Volume 1 or The Keys to Maramon to The Magic Candle II -The Four and Forty
The Magic Candle II - The Four and Forty to The Magic Candle III

Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master to Dungeon Master - Chaos Strikes Back - Expansion Set 1**
__________________________________________________ ___________

Expansion Packs (Individual Games)

Ultima VII - The Black Gate
Forge of Virtue

Ultima VII - The Serpent Isle
Silver Seed

Baldur's Gate
Tales of the Sword Coast

Baldur's Gate II - Shadows of Amn
Throne of Bhaal

Icewind Dale
Heart of Winter
Trials of the Loremaster

The Elder Scrolls III - Morrowind
Tribunal
Bloodmoon

Might and Magic Clouds of Xeen and Darkside of Xeen
Swords of Xeen (Worlds of Xeen)

Neverwinter Nights
Shadows of Undrentide
Hordes of the Underdark

I included all the expansion packs that allow characters created in the main game to be used in the expansion pack. If you believe and care that Wizardry II and III, Temple of Apshai sequels, the Warrior of RAS sequels, which all require characters made in the original game to play should be listed in the expansion packs, then feel free to do so.

*Apple II only
**(Officially) Chaos Strikes Back is not a PC game, and is not what I consider an Expansion Pack because the original game is not required, regardless what the box says.

[calthaer]

Well, if we're adding the Bioware canon to it, then I know that Icewind Dale / ID2 / Neverwinter Nights is also incorporated into that chapter of the canon. Not sure exactly how, though, as I have some of those games but haven't installed them to play 'em yet. I'll check in the manuals, though.

[Cantaloup]

Dungeon Master --> Chaos Strikes Back

Which worked well, since the difficulty of the sequel was so much higher that your built up characters from the first game fit right in.

[Jorpho]

I never even heard of that one. Did it appear on many platforms?

[Cantaloup]

I never even heard of that one. Did it appear on many platforms?

Were you talking about Dungeon Master? It appeared on (I think) the PC, Atari ST, and Amiga. I don't think the sequel (Chaos Strikes Back) appeared on the PC, though. There were also versions for the SNES and Dreamcast; I believe the Dreamcast one was released only in Japan. There was a third sequel (Dungeon Master II) which came out in the early-mid 90's for the PC and Mac, but it wasn't very good. Try this site (http://dmweb.free.fr/) for more information.

[Ze_ro]

Pool of Radiance or Curse of the Azure Bonds to Hillsfar

Hillsfar to Curse of the Azure Bonds also works.


Dungeon Master? It appeared on (I think) the PC, Atari ST, and Amiga. I don't think the sequel (Chaos Strikes Back) appeared on the PC, though. There were also versions for the SNES and Dreamcast; I believe the Dreamcast one was released only in Japan.

Are you serious that there was a Dreamcast version? I had certainly never heard of it... You're not thinking of the SegaCD version, are you?

--Zero

[Cantaloup]

Are you serious that there was a Dreamcast version? I had certainly never heard of it... You're not thinking of the SegaCD version, are you?

My apologies... It seems it was for the Saturn, not the Dreamcast, and was called Dungeon Master Nexus (http://dmweb.free.fr/DMNInformation.htm).

[Ze_ro]

Wow, I had no idea that even existed! I'll have to try to find that one some day... although the "full 3D" bit might kind of ruin the game and turn it into Wolfenstein.

--Zero

[Quarex]

I bet you guys thought this topic died on May 1, 2004, huh.

Well, it probably did. But I just recently decided to pose this same question on the SomethingAwful forums. A while after I posted the thread, I decided to check Google to see if indeed Phantasie I - III let you import characters, and I ended up finding this thread. How about that.

In any case, while my post is enormous, I thought it might be of at least some interest to see the PC part of what I have compiled so far. And some of the dates are probably wrong, so I would not be offended if you wanted to correct them.

This is also my first post, since I joined specifically for this, so ... sup?

PC:
1979
Temple of Apshai (the original Diablo, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION) -> Upper Reaches of Apshai -> Curse of Ra (these three games were re-released with updates graphics in '85 as Temple of Apshai Trilogy, which I swear was a watermark for CRPGs, was way ahead of its time, and is still kinda awesome.)

1980
Wizardry I -> II ('81) -> III ('82) and confusingly any of these to Dragon Wars ('88)

1984
Wizard's Crown -> The Eternal Dagger ('85)

1985
Ultima IV -> V ('88) -> VI ('90)
Bard's Tale I -> II ('86) -> III ('87) (I -> III also possible)
Bard's Tale 1/2 -> Dragon Wars ('88)
Alternate Reality: The City -> Alternate Reality: The Dungeon
Krull Soccer -> William H. Rehnquist's Pro Skater

1988
Pool of Radiance (Gold Box) -> Curse of the Azure Bonds ('91) -> Secret of the Silver Blades ('92) -> Pools of Darkness? ('93) (also, the oft-forgotten possible progression of Pool of Radiance -> Hillsfar ('91) <-> Curse of the Azure Bonds ('91)!)
Dungeon Master -> Dungeon Master: Chaos Strikes Back (Amiga, really)
Might & Magic I -> II ('90)

1989
Magic Candle I -> (The Keys to Maramon ('90) /->/ Magic Candle II: The Four and Forty ['90]) -> Magic Candle III ('91)

1990
Quest for Glory / Hero's Quest I -> Quest for Glory II ('92) -> Quest for Glory III ('93) -> Quest for Glory IV ('95) -> Quest for Glory V ('98)
Dark Designs (John Carmack's first project!) -> Dark Designs II

1991
Champions of Krynn -> Death Knights of Krynn ('92) -> Dark Queen of Krynn ('93)
Gateway to the Savage Frontier -> Treasures of the Savage Frontier ('92)
Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday -> Buck Rogers: Matrix Cubed ('92)

1992
Ultima VII -> Ultima VII.XXV, Forge of Virtue
Wizardry VI -> VII ('95) -> VIII ('01)

1993
Ultima VII.V -> Ultima VII.LXXV, The Silver Seed
Eye of the Beholder I -> II ('94) -> III ('95)
Dark Sun: Shattered Lands -> Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager ('94)

1994
Might & Magic IV -> V (really, just formed one game)

1996
Diablo -> Diablo: Hellfire ('97)

1998
Baldur's Gate -> (1.5) ('99) -> 2 ('00) -> 2.5 ('01)

1999
Icewind Dale I -> (I.V) ('00) -> II ('02) -> II.V ('03)
Jagged Alliance 2 -> JA2: Unfinished Business ('00) / JA2: Wildfire ('02)

2000
Diablo II -> Diablo II: Lord of Destruction ('01)

2001
LAXIUS POWER~! -> II ('02) -> III ('04)

2002
The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind -> Tribunal -> Bloodmoon ('03)
Neverwinter Nights -> NWN: Shadows of Undrentide ('03) -> NWN: Hordes of the Underdark ('04) (but it is recommended to begin a new character in "Shadows of Undrentide" according to SheepNameKiller)
Gothic II -> GII: Night of the Raven ('05; '03 in Europe)

[Jorpho]

Interesting...


Krull Soccer -> William H. Rehnquist's Pro Skater

Huh?


Ultima VII -> Ultima VII.XXV, Forge of Virtue
Ultima VII.V -> Ultima VII.LXXV, The Silver Seed

Is this a sarcastic commentary on the nature of Ultima expansions?

[Quarex]

Interesting...

Huh?
I have a problem with being unable to compile any list of anything without throwing false entries in for my own personal amusement.


Is this a sarcastic commentary on the nature of Ultima expansions?
No, that was just me trying to logically convert the expansion numbers into roman numerals. The Serpent Isle was "Ultima 7 Part Two," which could be logically called Ultima 7.5, which thus accordingly made Forge of Virtue Ultima 7.25 and The Silver Seed Ultima 7.75. Clearly.

[mr_pollock]

There's a game called Realmz by Fantasoft that has many expansions. You are allowed to transfer/import characters.

[Ruffie]

1986
(Not 100% sure) Demon's Winter -> Shard of Spring ('87)

Just checked my Commodore 64 version of Shard of Spring, and there is no mention of this connection.

This is a great thread, by the way.

Ruffie

[Jorpho]

The Serpent Isle was "Ultima 7 Part Two," which could be logically called Ultima 7.5, which thus accordingly made Forge of Virtue Ultima 7.25 and The Silver Seed Ultima 7.75. Clearly.

Um, yeah. Clearly... I've never seen Roman numerals in decimal form before...

I have never heard of this Silver Seed Ultima of which you speak.

[calthaer]

Silver Seed:
http://members.aol.com/UltimaWrld/ultima07.html

Officially called "Ultima VII Part 2: Silver Seed," it had something to do with the Avatar preventing the Guardian from returning (something he was also doing in Ultima Underworld 2). It was an entirely new adventure, not an add-on like Forge of Virtue was. I believe it had updated graphics and whatnot. The Complete Ultima VII had it included, as did that collection that included all Ultima games apart from IX.

[Scoots]

were wasteland characters importable into fallout? that was the name of the sequel, wastn't it?

[calthaer]

Fallout wasn't a direct sequel to wasteland, and no, I've never found any method for importing Wasteland characters into Fallout (or any other game, for that matter).

[Jorpho]

Fountain of Dreams was a "sequel" to Wasteland, but by all accounts it is a fairly poor game. I don't know about importing characters into it.

[HardcoreGamer]

Wow, this is an old thread...

Anyways, I consider Fallout to be PC RPG canon. It was one of the finest RPGs ever for PCs.

Reasons?

-Character Developement: characters could be almost infinitely developed, from social habits to renown
-Story: the tongue-in-cheek post-apocalyptic humor runs amok in this quest to save the doomed Vault 13
-Graphics: superior in their heyday, and can hold up to most scrutiny(unless you're a juvenile gamer only seeking visual pleasure)
-Replayability: the game has multiple ways to be played! it was the LEADER in replayability

[Ed Oscuro]

Speak of the devil, just got my Ultima Collection and AD&D Forgotten Realms Silver Archives discs back. I'm going to go see if Dungeon Hack could import stats from anything.

[calthaer]

Wow, this is an old thread...

Anyways, I consider Fallout to be PC RPG canon. It was one of the finest RPGs ever for PCs.

Well, for starters, you can't have a single object that is "canon," because it's a noun, and most of the time it's a noun that is comprised of several parts.

In this sense of "canon," we are using it like:

c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works <the canon of great literature>

In this case, the RPG "canon" being related to one another through import / export of character data. It has nothing to do, really, with the quality of the games themselves.

[Quarex]

Yeah, even the less unofficial sequel to Wasteland, Mean Time, would still have not allowed you to import your characters, since it was only going to use the Wasteland engine, and otherwise be a basically completely unrelated game.

I never did play Silver Seed ... or more than a few hours of Serpent's Isle, for that matter. I did not know it was more of an actual stand-alone than Forge of Virtue. This thread teaches me all kinds of new things.

I will update that list to cut Demon's Winter -> Shards of Spring; thanks for the notification.