Your classic video game ethics?

[boatofcar]

I know that due to the rules of the forum, we're not allowed to discuss the pirating and roms of current systems, i.e. systems that are still being produced. However, are there ethical grounds regarding having ROMs for classic systems that are currently available as compilations. For example, I consider myself to have pretty good ethics when it comes to any kind of copyrighted material. For example, I always use the iTunes music store instead of Kazaa or bittorrent, etc. I don't have any emulators for current systems, or current releases available for MAME. I'm not trying to put myself up on a pedastal, I just want to set up my next question. Say I have Ms. Pac Man on MAME, and the Namco Museum disc for PS2. Do you think this gives me the right to have the game on MAME on my PC? Do you think that since I emulate a NES on my Dreamcast, I need to have the GBA ports of SMB 1,2,3 to play them through an emulator? I know this kind of thing has next to no legal rammifications, the FBI won't knock down my door and make me get rid of roms, emulators, etc. It's more of a personal conscience type thing. Anyway, I'd just like to get some opinions on this.

[Overbite]

i think that if you own the game, then you have the right to emulate it. and since you have the game on a collection disc that you paid for, you should be able to use it in mame.

[Arqueologia_Digital]

Do you think this gives me the right to have the game on MAME on my PC? Do you think that since I emulate a NES on my Dreamcast, I need to have the GBA ports of SMB 1,2,3 to play them through an emulator? I know this kind of thing has next to no legal rammifications, the FBI won't knock down my door and make me get rid of roms, emulators, etc. It's more of a personal conscience type thing. Anyway, I'd just like to get some opinions on this.
I don´t know if you have the rights, but it´s ok if you have some ROMS, i have a lot of Roms of games that i don´t own and i never delete them after 24 hours, so it´s a polemic and relative topic in this aspect i think...
In conclusion...it´s complicated or in Argentina...it´s a "Quilombo"

Matías

[ehall]

In order to keep the MAME rom, I thought it was that you had to own a PCB that matches the ROM. I think with the Museum disc the only thing you can have is a backup of the museum disc.

Unless the RIAA gets involved, in which case you also need Ownership papers to the PCB, Express Oral and Written consent of the National Football League, and a picture of yourself in a Zebra costume holding the PCB. They are pretty strict.

I know it's a bad joke, but I wrote it anyway :P

[Daria]

Legally you shouldn't have any roms or ISOs at all. But we're talking personal ethics which is completely different.

Ethically if you already own the game in any form, it's really irrelevant which format you end up playing it on. So if you own that Namco museum disk what difference does it really make if you lay it on your PS2 or a copy on MAME. You already own the game so it's hardly going to affect say, sales of another port of Namco Museum.
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[YoshiM]

First rule of ROM ownership is....YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT ROM OWNERSHIP!

Second rule of ROM owndership is...YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT ROM OWNERSHIP!


-ahem-

I would say technically "no" to it being okay to have a ROM and play it on MAME if you own a "compilation" style disc. Who's to say that that Namco Greatest Hits disc has actual ROMs on them? Could be just a port. Anyway the game data is specifically set up for that compilation for that particular platform. Ethically, and EULAs aside, if you could yank the ROMs (if they were ROMs) from the compilation and use them on your PC I could see that as a "fair use" thing. However the likelyhood of that being possible is pretty much nil. Using a ROM for MAME wouldn't count in a "fair use" situation as it's probably not the same ROM that came with your compilation.

[Nature Boy]

Legally you shouldn't have any roms or ISOs at all.

Not true. If you have the means to dump a game that you own then, unless I'm mistaken, it's your right to back up your property. Just like making a cassette copy of a CD that you own. Owning the game and then downloading the ROM from somebody else isn't, I believe, the same thing - although I also believe that you're still supporting the industry and I applaud that.

Those that only emulate and feel they shouldn't have to spend a dime on a game are the ones that hurt the industry. Yeah what I do isn't any more legal, but at least I feel like I'm giving something back.

[boatofcar]

Really, it's not the legal thing I'm concerned with, it's just a matter of personal ethics, and I was just wondering if anybody else has any "rules" they've set up for themselves. I don't know though...if the rumors are true and black box classics for the NES do come out for the GBA at $20 or more a pop, I don't think I could bring myself to pay that much for them. :embarrassed:
On another note, what's the deal with the starroms site? (Is that what it's called?) Do you see any more big classic arcade companies getting on board with that?

[Daria]

Legally you shouldn't have any roms or ISOs at all.

Not true. If you have the means to dump a game that you own then, unless I'm mistaken, it's your right to back up your property. Just like making a cassette copy of a CD that you own. Owning the game and then downloading the ROM from somebody else isn't, I believe, the same thing.

I was generalizing. Sorry about that, but you are right. The only exception to owning ROMs or ISOs is when you make your own copy of your own game. Although Nintendo's legal FAQ would say otherwise.

Edit: As for my own personal ROM ethics? They're simply really. I have no problem downloading anything that I can't easily buy. Japanese games for semi-current systems (ie. PSX), older obsolete games (Atari, NES, etc...).

I as a general do not touch American PSX ISOs, I don't see anything wrong with others downloading them, but they're still easy enough to find in stores. I will never download a GBA game anytime soon. Sometimes I really want to... but I think it's absolutely wrong. If you don't have enough money for every new game then tough shit... play the ones you can afford. I know some paople say they download roms to try them out. I don't.

I also tend not to download GBC and Gameboy games since they're abundant at GameStop and EB and the GBA is backwars compatible. Again I don't expect anyone else to have that rule. It's just me.

And I couldn't download an XboX, PS2 or GameCube game if I tried so my ethics regarding them are rather moot.
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[MarioAllStar2600]

I am not going to even reply cause this topic has had the crap kicked out of it over and over. None of us are going to call the cops over a rom that nobody is making profit off of, so who cares?

[Nature Boy]

Really, it's not the legal thing I'm concerned with, it's just a matter of personal ethics, and I was just wondering if anybody else has any "rules" they've set up for themselves.

I'm not sure I'd say I have rules, because if/when I break them there really aren't any reprocussions. I do my best to support the hobby though (paying for software like APE for example) and make sure I'm giving back as well as taking.

[Daria]

I am not going to even reply cause this topic has had the crap kicked out of it over and over. None of us are going to call the cops over a rom that nobody is making profit off of, so who cares?

That's kinda of the point of ethics now isn't it? If you break your own rule who but you is going to know? It's asking yourself if you can do the right thing even if there's no reprocussions for not doing so.

Course the cops aren't going to bust down your door over a video game. But to what extent do you feel ok with yourself for downloading them. At which format do you draw the line?
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[DDCecil]

My personal feeling is if I don't have any money for a game or can't find a game, then I shouldn't have the right to own it in any shape or form. I really don't care what anyone else does (None of my business).

[Syxx573]

Alright, here's my take on things.

I think it's OK to have ROMS.

But do I play them? Not really. I D/Led KOF2003 to try it out. I haven't played it for more then 3 hours. When I had to chance to play it in the arcade I put money into it. I bought the KOFs when they came out on the DC and the PS2. I plan on buying every SNK release in the U.S. Other then that I don't play roms as much as I used to, I'm more into collecting old systems. Anything that I realllllllly want to play, I own. I just use my money wisely so that I have enough to get what I want when it comes available.

[maxlords]

What is this "ethics" of which you speak?

Anyway....technically, according to the software and hardware companies I've talked to (Nintendo, MS, Sony, etc) it is ILLEGAL to own ROMs, even of games you own. According to them, you own the rights only to the one version of the software you posess. Backups aren't allowed. Or so I've been told.

As for enforcement...it's rarely done but it happens. Just keep quiet and don't bother anyone or spread the stuff around rampantly and you'll be fine.

[ManekiNeko]

Wouldn't it be a bitch if all the major game companies joined together to create the GIAA?

...

Wait a minute, there already WAS a GIA, wasn't there? Never mind.

JR

[boatofcar]

IF all the game companies got together and formed one giant superstructure and sold classic roms (say, up to 1992), via a program like iTunes for 99 cents apiece, would you buy them?

I think its about time that companies embrace the fact that roms ARE out there and people do download them. They also need to see that people are honest and will pay for them, given the opportunity and a fair price. If it wasn't for iTunes, the industry would be $50 million poorer, and the RIAA would still think that an online market for music wouldn't exist. Now we have iTunes, Napster 2.0, Rhapsody, and a whole host of programs that give people a legal way to download music, and if the 50 million and counting songs sold on iTunes is any indication, the video game market could make a killing designing a similar service for their old games.

[Daria]

the video game market could make a killing designing a similar service for their old games.

Well Sega at least made an effort with their Saturn Emulator in Japan. Doesn't do us non-asians any good and really only provided us with a working Saturn emulator to pirate... but it was a start. :P
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[jdc]

As far as copying this, that n t'other, the only thing that irks me are the monkeys who burn software for current systems.....because they are too cheap to buy it at retail.

I don't think that anyone's going to spank you for copying games from old consoles. It's not like you're doing it maliciously or to spite the industry.

[Nature Boy]

IF all the game companies got together and formed one giant superstructure and sold classic roms (say, up to 1992), via a program like iTunes for 99 cents apiece, would you buy them?

For anything new out there I didn't have, absolutely. For what I've already got, to be honest probably not.

The advantage a service like iTunes has is that it can guarantee quality. Once you have a game it either works or it doesn't, unlike an mp3 which can sound like crap (and is the main reason I don't bother with the format).


Anyway....technically, according to the software and hardware companies I've talked to (Nintendo, MS, Sony, etc) it is ILLEGAL to own ROMs, even of games you own. According to them, you own the rights only to the one version of the software you posess. Backups aren't allowed. Or so I've been told.

What I want to know is if it's illegal according to the courts. The software/hardware companies would obviously like this to happen, but as I mentioned earlier, if I can copy a CD onto cassette for my personal enjoyment/back up, I don't see why I can't do the same to a cartridge/disc based game. Or even to a console if I can dump the files I need from the console itself.

[SegaAges]

I think it all depends on the degree of a pirate you are. I have known people that would buy a Dreamcast simply because they didn't need a modchip, or buy a modded xbox or ps2 as their only means of playing ps2 or xbox. one person has already said it: if you pirate, keep it to yourself, and it will be fine. as long as you are giving money to the industry, than it is fine.

[Ed Oscuro]

I am not going to even reply cause this topic has had the crap kicked out of it over and over. None of us are going to call the cops over a rom that nobody is making profit off of, so who cares?
I talked about this before...don't think it got us much of anywhere.

At least most Roundtablers (Roundheads? LOL ) know the 24 hour rule is bunk...but beyond that?

As for legal issues...you all have seen the Pepsi/Apple ad where kids who were sued by the RIAA are forced to say that they were "convicted," right (big damned difference!)? Even when the laws are set, big business can ignore it.

I'm feeling pretty sympathetic to MAS2K6's stance here...this just isn't the sort of topic to have polite conversation about. o_O

[boatofcar]

IF all the game companies got together and formed one giant superstructure and sold classic roms (say, up to 1992), via a program like iTunes for 99 cents apiece, would you buy them?

For anything new out there I didn't have, absolutely. For what I've already got, to be honest probably not.

The advantage a service like iTunes has is that it can guarantee quality. Once you have a game it either works or it doesn't, unlike an mp3 which can sound like crap (and is the main reason I don't bother with the format).



....but what if the company included not just the rom, but all the artwork, overlays, etc that you can add yourself? Plus the advantage of reliable, fast downloads and compatibility. I'm really interested in seeing who would go for something like that.

[Cmosfm]

Ok, I'll post my rules for roms.

1. If I can play it on my laptop at work I will.

2. If I can only play it via emulation to save from spending hundreds or thousands for it (arcades, rares, etc.) I will.

3. If I like the game, I will keep it, if I don't I will delete it.

I don't really have any "ethics" when it comes to roms. I'm not cheating the system or making companies lose money cause I will buy the games anyways when the price is right.

Being a collector, I will buy any game that comes along cheap. So maybe I have a downloaded version of Wario Ware for GBA....Will I pay 30.00 for it If I couldn't have downloaded it? no. Would I pay 10.00 for it? no. If I found it for 5.00 would I buy it? yes. Im a cheap ass...I love games, I love to play, but I love to play cheap even more.

[Cmosfm]

Ok, I'll post my rules for roms.

1. If I can play it on my laptop at work I will.

2. If I can only play it via emulation to save from spending hundreds or thousands for it (arcades, rares, etc.) I will.

3. If I like the game, I will keep it, if I don't I will delete it.

I don't really have any "ethics" when it comes to roms. I'm not cheating the system or making companies lose money cause I will buy the games anyways when the price is right.

Being a collector, I will buy any game that comes along cheap. So maybe I have a downloaded version of Wario Ware for GBA....Will I pay 30.00 for it If I couldn't have downloaded it? no. Would I pay 10.00 for it? no. If I found it for 5.00 would I buy it? yes. Im a cheap ass...I love games, I love to play, but I love to play cheap even more.

[Nature Boy]

....but what if the company included not just the rom, but all the artwork, overlays, etc that you can add yourself? Plus the advantage of reliable, fast downloads and compatibility. I'm really interested in seeing who would go for something like that.

Interesting idea. Of course then they'd have to be more involved in the emulators themselves I'd think, so that they could integrate everything.