How will we collect for the first console that's online only

[le geek]

Now that online play is becoming more mainstream on both Xbox and PS2, do you think online only console games will will become more common in the next generation? And if so how it affect collecting?

Personally, if online play becomes too much of a trend to the point of near replacing the single player/traditional multiplayer experience (much like 3D has mostly replaced 2D now), I think this will have a negative effect not only on collecting, but on the industry as a whole.

Food for thought: Here's an article on how Activision and EA are looking into getting neisen like data for online games to charge for ads in videogames...

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/worldbiz/archives/2004/04/10/2003136132

So what do you think? Am I overreacting, or will an over-abundance of online games hurt our hobby?

Ben

[Speedy]

For onlinegames on the PS2 or Xbox you still need a "real" game. I love the big box of Socom :D So i don't think that should be a problem, maybe a future generation is by streaming only ... at that point collecting for as we know it will stop. But luckely there is still a sh*tload of old consoles then :-P

[Ze_ro]

The Dreamcast already takes a bit of a hit due to this. PSO and PSOv2 are the only games that lose a substantial amount due to lack of online play, but there are many others that lose small features without it. For example, Floigan Bros had a "monthly download" that was a new minigame that you could play. I suppose without the servers, we can't play those anymore. I would have hoped that games that had online-specific features would have had some manner to bypass that and play them anyways (via cheat codes or something), but oh well...

However, for the more popular games, fans will likely come up with their own homebrew servers (This has been done for Dreamcast PSO)... whether or not this will provide a real solution to a future problem remains to be seen.

What really seems like a threat to our hobby is devices like the Phantom and ApeXtreme that get ALL their content from the internet without any media at all. These two systems may not stand much of a chance, but it's a sign of things to come I think. Collecting these is going to be essentially impossible without serious modifications to the console, or tricking it into accepting content from your own computer (or both).

--Zero

[Aussie2B]

If anything, it'll help me with collecting. Less new games to buy equals more money to spend on older systems. :P Even if I got rich someday, I don't think I'd ever run out of games to buy for all the systems I already have.

[rbudrick]

I think if it ever happenned, the systems would bomb, and it would boil down to just collecting the hardware items for it.

Or, if it is successful, collectors would concentrate on getting all the periopherals for it.

-Rob

[Daria]

I don't think any console would become online gaming only. You'd alienate way too many players that simply don't enjoy mass multiplayer games. Also I doubt any company would switch completely to online games because they wouldn't want to flood their own market with competion. Why have 10 multiplayer RPGs competeing for the same customers on one console when you can focus on a couple games instead and make just as much money? Also since consoles make money by licensing gmes to third parties, I doubt every party's interested in online gaming. Single player games are cheaper to maintain anyway since once it's out, it's out. No servers to run.

Now if we're talking consoles with downloadable games... then collecting those would be a lot like having a rom collection. Possible but not very satisfying. And as Rob pointed out there's always accesories and memoralbilia (sp?).
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[PapaStu]

In one of the older threads about the Phantom, someone mentioned the notion of what happens to your games when you download them, and youve run out of Harddrive space. Does this force you to delete, or get rid of your older games? That was something that I had never thought of before, and something that I still seriously wonder. I sure as hell want a hard copy of a game that I dumped any money into. Be it 5 bucks, or 200 (Steel Battallion). So I choose to delete the game from my HD, I often go back and replay older games, so there better be a way for me to get the game back, with out having to pay for it all over again.

[Ed Oscuro]

Less new games to buy equals...
That's the thing - there'll be just as many games as ever, you'll pay top dollar AND you won't have anything to show for it.

I think such an idea has a chance but it'll be a LONG time (and the laws will likely change a good deal too) before the world stops using media with a single piece of software on it (anything that you can only put one game on, even if it's a hard drive) for the majority of consumer applications. Gaming will almost certainly be the first to change, but I think we'll see applications like closed-source business/computer applications (Quicken, Lotus 1-2-infinity, Photoshipshoppshape, Windows X++) hold onto media for quite a while, though it's true that you can download complete versions of Windows from the Microsoft websites (if you have access to such things - very limited distribution).

As for hardware, I've always been a hardware guy. I suppose I'll be a bit flustered when the damn machines start eating and having little miniconsole babies but that might come too ;)

[calthaer]

If you don't like the idea of an online-only console, then the way to prevent it is simple:

Don't patronize the business model.

I don't think online-only will happen, though - but it certainly might become that way with music...so...

[Ed Oscuro]

but it certainly might become that way with music...so...
Ugh, that is something I would REALLY hate to see, and I don't listen to music. That would set quality increases back years (if everybody gets MP3s, almost back to the days of vinyl) and cause all sorts of trouble to the stereo equipment folks.

Online only content, well, hate to break it to everybody but hotfixes/online "updates" are here to stay, and "online only" isn't really that much further. It's just a conceptual gap of taking the CD out of your hand and putting the data on a disc. One can't actually associate VALUE with the individual hard drive, especially if companies want to believe that everybody who owns a system has to buy their own copy/license, even if somebody transfers their system (i.e. sells) it to another (another possibility that greatly concerns me...companies trying to take too much advantage of copyrights).

[calthaer]

Something germane to the topic at hand for everybody:

http://www.gamespot.com/all/news/news_6093246.html

[Ze_ro]

So I choose to delete the game from my HD, I often go back and replay older games, so there better be a way for me to get the game back, with out having to pay for it all over again.

I think the idea with those systems is that either you pay a subscription fee every month, and then download whatever you want, whenever you want... or you'd pay a small charge ($5 or so) for each download. So if you wanted an old game back, you'd have to delete something and then pay the $5 to download it again.

The problem comes 3 or 4 years down the road with the download service is no longer available, and the system becomes a $300 doorstop.

--Zero

[GaijinPunch]

While it's on the horizon, it's defintitely not next-gen. There might be something LIKE IT next gen, but no big company is going to ONLY offera 5GB game in form of ether unless thoseusers are on fiber. There's only a handful of fiber users right now, most in Japan, and even it's not that much faster than the high speed cable.

Once games went DVD, they gave the telecomms companies a much bigger canyon to jump if they want to make their content virtual. Downloading an entire CD this day is not a big deal for a lot of people, but it still cuts out a huge part of the user base.

[Ed Oscuro]

I would imagine there's two basic types of setup; subscription with free access to games (perhaps limited in number by the system, not just your HD space, say 30/month) or subscription to the basic service and you pay for each game. For the second type of setup I can't see them not allowing you to redownload a game...they'd keep a track of what you've paid for and if you need to redownload it they'll let you. The subscription fee handles that; you're on the system's servers one way (playing games) or another (downloading stuff).

[IntvGene]

I don't support online only games, and as much as I am probably missing out on some enjoyment in the present, I favor the idea of being able to play my games at a later date. I buy games, I don't rent them.

That was honestly one of my reasons for picking up Star Wars: KOTOR, a North American made, single player RPG. Sure, it had downloadable features, but they aren't central to the game, and I wanted to support them for their choices of making a great single-player game.

Are you telling me that these companies aren't licking their chops at the prospect of selling these games themselves? They'll have total control over everything from the distribution to the profits. They'll be pushing it as soon as they can... probably with the handhelds first, I'd imagine.

[sabre2922]

I have absolutely NO interest in any console that would be online only O_O and out of the 5 other friends i have that actually play video games or own any game systems from atari2600 to Xbox they so very little to no interest in a game system that you cant "go out and buy actual games for".
NO way in hell am I paying even $5.00 for a game that only exists on my Hardrive or flashcard or whatever the hell they try to pump down our throats :angry:

[Ed Oscuro]

Are you telling me that these companies aren't licking their chops at the prospect of selling these games themselves? They'll have total control over everything from the distribution to the profits.
I am concerned about what will happen in the world of copyright and ownership of copies. However, when you take away the whole "physical unique media, pretty cases" aspect (which is pretty big, of course!) it comes down to cutting out all the go-betweens and middlemen, and getting the product to you more efficiently and quickly. I don't see anybody cutting the price of games on the new system, but it will allow for more games to be released.

As for something to hang onto? I forsee the current trend towards rewarding people who preorder with goodies translating over to the "online only" arena.

I really do have a lot of sympathy for those of us who don't like the thought of losing a physical copy of the game that you can freely transport from place to place and certainly this won't be good for rental places or for taking your games to a party to play them (even if you can move your console, will you need to be connected to play it? Will the systems even HAVE multiplayer capability? That's something which seems lacking on the Phantom). I myself will probably stay focused on buying older cartridge based games and won't be buying many new games...but if they want to take us down that road, I'm willing to see where it leads.

[le geek]

I really do have a lot of sympathy for those of us who don't like the thought of losing a physical copy of the game that you can freely transport from place to place and certainly this won't be good for rental places or for taking your games to a party to play them (even if you can move your console, will you need to be connected to play it? Will the systems even HAVE multiplayer capability? That's something which seems lacking on the Phantom). I myself will probably stay focused on buying older cartridge based games and won't be buying many new games...but if they want to take us down that road, I'm willing to see where it leads.

I think it will be interesting to see how it goes. It will all come down to what casual gamers want after they are heavily marketed to, I reckon. I guess I'm turning into a luddite since the ever changing specs and operating systems keep me away from PC gaming!

One of the big appeals to me of classic/neo classic gaming is being able to play the games after they get cheap and after the systems are obsolete. Both the GBA and PS2 capitalize on this by being backwards compatible. If online only (or online prominent) gaming becomes increasing popular, let's say capturing 50% of the market, and people like it, so be it; but I'll be more interested in the other 50% :)

Cheers,
Ben

[Ed Oscuro]

Another thing to think about is that all copies of games currently in physical media will eventually break down and need to be repaired, rewritten (floppies, cassettes), or have major work done (how would one fix a cartridge with bit-rot? You'd better know the revision number).

I recently read that some CD-ROMs will have a lifespan of only 15 years dude to poor production quality. I doubt games are affected so much as CD-R/RW type media and small label music but the potential for those games to die on you is there.

Floppy games...I'm a fan of gaming on computers whether it be on the Sinclair, the MSX systems, or the x68K, and I don't have a complete plan for backing up the games (in the case of the x68K, hope and pray you can install them all to a SCSI disc). If the disc dies you're stuck with a pretty shell. It doesn't make much sense that we attribute so much value to the $.02 original burning and consider the actual media, the manual, the box to be just a shell, but it's a real visceral kick in the gut to find out your game is dead, really. I have an apparently dead (secondary) Samurai Spirits cartridge that I consider pretty much worthless...and eventually all my well-kept floppies and carts will be just the same. I might not be around to see those days, but it will happen.

Computing and copyright issues aren't a very perfect match. This business with going online-only and abandoning old titles show that the game industry is very much a manufacturing process, that game production is not an art as much as we'd like, consoles are nearly as replaceable as old A/V equipment, and old titles get dropped by the wayside. Essentially we have no choice but to follow where the industry is going.

Where is it going? Online-only is the only real way that companies will make their older titles available again. Sega has played around with the concept, making Shinobi III (among other titles) available as a download for Windows. If you simply can download a game you don't need to worry about manufacturing capacity - it leaves more room in your schedule for your newest popular titles. It is not at all certain that many companies will take this route especially as the trend to appoint "series czars" (figureheads who attempt to play around with the history of the series they have been appointed to "update") is ongoing, and of course many companies would like to forget about certain titles altogether.

However, what's to say that Nintendo won't ever be able to bring back Virtual Boy games on a more pleasing format? Remakes are another BIG part of game development. Many companies are realizing that they must have copies of the source for their oldest games if they want to make them available to the public; as media gets cheaper we see more remakes and more rereleases of classic titles. Putting together an internal library and rereleasing games are wholly dependent on this trend; how many rereleases of classic games did we see before? Pac-Man on the Pac-Man 2 cartridge? Today you can buy a joystick with a mostly passable conversion of Pac-Man alongside other ports of classic Namco games, you can buy almost every Pac-Man game ever made for whatever next-gen or currently-last-gen system you prefer, and there's doubtlessly stuff online.

As much as I'm a packrat and LOVE hoarding stuff I have to admit that you either love the games or you don't. I don't play my games enough as it is and while there's certainly a "cheap" aspect to rereleases it's the only way we'll see some of our classic games in the future.

[vincewy]

Video Games, like music, will soon follow pay per download business model, but I don't think it'll evolve as quick as music. For one thing, the hard drive capacities hasn't gone as quick as the games' volume, I've only heard one high end boutique computer shop offering HD of one tetrabyte, even the current PC games still rely on CD/DVD to carry the memories, it's much cheaper than to download into the HD.

If pay per download is the only way to go and the only way most people want to go, then the classic gaming scene would be gone by now due to emulation, simply download all the roms you can find. Many gamers are still reluctant to pay online monthly fees after paying for games themselves.

By the time all consoles become online only without, I'll have lost interest of games of those era, even current PS2 game library, I've only spotted 20 games I really want, that's 20 out of hundreds, if not thousands. Dreamcast is the last real gamers' system. There're still a lot of retro systems' games I want to collect, probably never finish collecting before I die, including all 16-bits, Japanese Saturn and Dreamcast.

So the main difference between music and games, musics take much smaller space than games

[EnemyZero]

Personally I dont mind on-line gaming grabbing more popularity, 2 reasons : a) i love playing games on-line, the interaction with other people is much more fun. b) for example i just got splinter cell : pt for xbox and i been hooked, so i know im not gonna need to go buy a bunch of console games since i wont play em untill im sick of SC, so i been spending my free money on older games, my gen collection has been seeing a surge :P and once halo 2 comes out its all over lol

[drwily008]

I personally wouldnt mind if more games started having online features, as long as they do not charge a pay to play (ie. monthly charge). It would be nice to catch up on some old games. :D

[drwily008]

Oh yeah...Daria where did you get that cool Nall puppet. I have a Ghaleon one but never saw that! Its awesome!

[nesuser2]

So, does anybody believe the phantom is real? I reallllly hate the idea because well...I like online games but not THAT much....

[Ed Oscuro]

For one thing, the hard drive capacities hasn't gone as quick as the games' volume, I've only heard one high end boutique computer shop offering HD of one tetrabyte, even the current PC games still rely on CD/DVD to carry the memories, it's much cheaper than to download into the HD.
This is an interesting question. A terabyte hard drive would let you install a 3 Gigabyte program (assume that's all the data, including savegames, custom maps and so on) slightly more than 341 (+ 1/3) times. How about a 100 GB hard drive? That would let you install 34.1 times.

How many games do folks currently buy for their systems?

I don't know anybody in my town who has 34 games for a single nextgen console (I guess I have that many Genesis games, maybe).

As for current PC games relying "on CD/DVD to carry the memories," I'm afraid I don't follow you. Most games download everything to the HD and inserting the CD/DVD to play is merely a counter-piracy technique; a formality.

[Daria]

Oh yeah...Daria where did you get that cool Nall puppet. I have a Ghaleon one but never saw that! Its awesome!

Ebay where else? :P

He's also a normal stuffed animal not a puppet and I read that he was a promo for the Lunar Fan Art Edition. Not entirely positive on that though. I have Ghaleon too. (:

Actually if you look at the picture closely Nall's sitting on him.
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[petewhitley]

How many games do folks currently buy for their systems?

I don't know anybody in my town who has 34 games for a single nextgen console (I guess I have that many Genesis games, maybe).

2 Questions:
How big is your town?
How many people do you know?
I know several, if not over a dozen, people with over 35-some games for a single current next-gen system. Myself included.

[nesuser2]

I live in a quite small town and I can count off quite a few people that have that many next-gen games and spanning all systems, I have over 34(just over 40 gamecube games :D ) next-gen games. People that buy alot of games want something to show for it. It's just like software that you pay for but don't get a disc....I won't do it. Why does it burn people that pay for a new computer with windows xp and get some junk restore cd instead of the real xp cd.....they want something to show for their $$ and they also want exactly what they paid for...just my thoughts

[Ed Oscuro]

2 Questions:
How big is your town?
How many people do you know?
I live in Battle Creek, Michigan so you're looking at what, 53K+ people (we've had more come in since 2000...)?

I know a good number of gamers, and most of them are teenagers. I don't ask folks how many games they own so it's mostly just a suppossition...I don't think many of us young folks can afford to have that many games :P

[nesuser2]

2 Questions:
How big is your town?
How many people do you know?
I live in Battle Creek, Michigan so you're looking at what, 53K+ people (we've had more come in since 2000...)?

I know a good number of gamers, and most of them are teenagers. I don't ask folks how many games they own so it's mostly just a suppossition...I don't think many of us young folks can afford to have that many games :P

What do you consider young? I'm certainly not old....unless you're 13 LOL

[vincewy]

Since this involves online gaming, I'll just ask here

I just got Auto Modellista by Capcom (I love cel-shaded graphics), is this game online only? Or can this be played offline as well, need to know before I open it.