Anybody collect game backups? Can backups be a collection?

[Anthony1]

This topic may be considered "taboo" and if so I appologize for that.


I was curious if anybody collects backups or CD-R's of games. And if so, could backups really be considered a collection?

I will admit that right now I'm collecting backups. I have tons and tons of "real" cartridge games for a lot of different systems, but when it comes to CD based games, I decided to just go the backup route.

Yes, that does technically make me a Pirate. But I really don't have any guilty feelings about collecting games on CD-R's for long dead and obsolete systems. I used to buy original Sega CD and 3DO and Saturn and PSX games, in fact, I bought an awful lot of them. Mostly off of Ebay for some pretty damn high prices. But after awhile I just got tired of paying so much cash. I'm not a collector, I just want to play the games. So I got to the point where I said F it, and decided to just go the backup route.

I'm slowly but surely building a collection of CD-R's, if you can call it that, and I was curious if others here do the same thing.

Also for the people that do, do you really consider them "collections"?

I consider mine to be a collection, although it's not the same of course as having the real game and the manual and the case and the artwork, etc, etc. So I understand that. But it is a collection of games that do play, so I'm cool with it.

[Daria]

I used to collect RPG roms when I was broke, then the collection turned into a website, then became too popular and I had to put it down. But I still update the files every now and then. It's fun searching out new and obscure Japanese RPGs. Most sites list them by name so you have no clue what most of these game really are even when you download a full goodness collection.

And of course people mail me ISOs every now and then and I hold onto them to play when I haven't bought the game yet, or to copy and trade.
________
TakeMeNow (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/TakeMeNow/)

[CitizenWhite]

Of course it's a collection. If you are into it for the gameplay, why the hell not? No hurt in it I say. And to those who ridicule you for having backups, gently remind them that you spent only a fraction of the cost, usually the price of a CD-R.

[atari_overlord]

I personally dont collect backups but i dont mind if other people do. I think I am probably more of a collector than a gamer so the hunt is a huge part of the fun and I feel like it makes me enjoy the game that much more. As far as my position on if it can be considered a collection. I think I respect it more as a collection than a rom "collection" for the sole reason that the burned games are played on the original hardware. That is such a huge draw for me. I will leave my computer for writing on the message board and crunching huge numbers and my video game systems for playing games.

[Ed Oscuro]

I was curious if anybody collects backups or CD-R's of games. And if so, could backups really be considered a collection?
I've got to hand it to ya, if you don't ask these questions - nobody would!

It is a good question though.

The answer is yes!

You can collect backups. You can also collect gold Double Eagles from 1933 (though you can't legally own them), you can have a collection of human teeth, and you can always do something really bizarre and collect legal briefs (now THAT is a sure sign of a severe neuroses!)

All things considered, though, these copies won't be as important as the real thing unless someday the mutants discover a pile of CD-Rs, the last copies of various game titles in existence. In that case the CD-Rs would (assuming a number of things here) be very important; not only would they be an example of 20th century media technology but they would be encoded with information which would otherwise be lost to the ages.

Of course said mutants would later come across a box of new European Kizuna Encounter carts in Shawn's basement, and then they'd all be REAL hot dogs, instead of just weenies that just played burns.

In summary - whenever the real thing's available it will be considered better.

To take it a bit further, I don't see how CD-Rs, any brand of which has had millions of units produced, burned with some data which is easily transmitted (and even found) via the Internet, and then chucked with little care in some guy's CD case, can be worth any money.

Perhaps someday in the FAR future it will be a rare thing to be able to make CD-ROMs, and working CD-ROMs will be a rare thing indeed, not to mention the systems that were built to read them. Perhaps the only working copies of Neo Geo CD-ROM games will be burns.

I'd say you're better off hoarding blank CD-Rs so you're properly equipped to meet the future.

LOL

[NintendoMan]

I know what you mean about the prices being high!
Personally though I would not considerate a collection, to me a collection of crap. But that's just me, I am a collector and need the original game in it's original format. Since you said your not a collector it shouldn't really matter. As long as your having fun playing the game.

[Mr. Smashy]

To me, that would be like collecting photocopies of prints of great classic paintings. I could have a picture of every great painting that has ever been reproduced but such a collection wouldn't have as much value to me as having an original for myself.

[brykasch]

Well I look at it this way, as someone who plans to enter the gaming profession, I abhor anyone who downloads anything that is still commercially available. For dead systems I don't care if you do, but as for me its nice having the manual artwork etc in my hand, if I can't afford it then I save up for it, this ain't pokemon cause you can't catch em all:) Modding et al is just to much hassle to me, and sending my system to someone I don't know running a dubious business as it is, to iffy to me, thank god for sega and n for making importing easier. Sony could learn something from them.

[Daria]

I just want to bring up a point here. In my case at least my emulation collection has helped with my "real thing" collection. For example I now have a better idea of exactly what games are available in my specific genre and by playing the roms/isos I know what games are high a priority to me and which aren't.

And like brykasch, I'm completely against pirating new systems. GBA roms are definately taboo for me.
________
Wendie 99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

[Ed Oscuro]

And to those who ridicule you for having backups, gently remind them that you spent only a fraction of the cost, usually the price of a CD-R.
Oh yes, those nasty rasty collectors, who believe that it's a VIRTUE to spend money SUPPORTING THE HOBBY THEY ENJOY. It's almost like those funky ass japanese manuals are fit for kindling or something.

Now Evangelion, that's the SHIT.

Excuse me while I empty my bladder on your collection of beloved backups. :>

Now don't get me wrong, I understand that a lot of the games folks want to play are out of print or hard to find. The issue is that you don't get the real experience - or the information - that the real thing gives. Real collectors aren't at all fazed by this nonsense of folks coming up to them talking about their game "collections." Boxes ARE NOT overrated, no matter what folks say. What's overrated is the "give it to me quick and I'll spend just one night with it and discard it" approach to obtaining and playing classic games. "Man, that game sucked compared to X, and it sucked up a lot of my bandwidth! What a gyp!"

I see folks who talk about Rondo being a mediocre game...folks who burned a copy, mostly, who don't understand that back in the day that was the top of the line in gaming, that and The 7th Guest now being seen as "cheesy." If you don't think about things, don't see stuff maxing out the hardware and overheating the system, you don't see how much people worked and struggled to make that stuff fun and immersive for you.

We all moved on and left the old guy who told stories by the fire to himself because we're busy on our new "movie" deals, but the truth is that we haven't gotten any better at presenting a story. It seems that folks like the convenience more than the story; they like the emulation more than the games.

That is not what a Game Collector believes in. A collector will not balk at the prospect of dropping a fraction of his paycheck on a certain item if he's determined that is what he needs (wants) to do.

I know I apparently give a different definition of "collector" in my last post, but I didn't say what this other type of collector actually collects.

They collect garbage.

I think emulation has had two major effects - one secondary effect (which affects me) of expanding the public knowledge and appreciation of old games and system, but the primary effect is that it cheapens games, in more ways than just one. Everybody wants to see what the old games are like, but nobody wants to spend a lot of time with them (heck, I've only had time to work through a handful of my classic games). I envy the old timers here who grew up with the old stuff and who aren't at all concerned by the Atari 2600's very thin illusion of reality, because they can pick that stuff up and get a few hours of real entertainment from it. Me, I went through a bunch of old games in MAME and emulation in days flat 'cuz I had savestates and stuff. It messes up the game.

[Daria]

I think you completely over reacted there Ed. o.O
________
Sex show (http://www.fucktube.com/video/39383/hidden-cam-catches-a-live-sex-show)

[Melf]

And to those who ridicule you for having backups, gently remind them that you spent only a fraction of the cost, usually the price of a CD-R.

..and it has only a fraction of the actual value.

Just my $.02, but I prefer the original every time. Sure, I can use the emulator to check out a game before I buy it, but that's the thing: I buy it if I like it. Games are too expensive? Get another hobby. I don't see stamp collectors, vintage car collectors, or art collectors looking for a cheap way to get the same thing. Gaming is expensive, yes. That just comes with the territory.

I can see using MAME, as it's not practical to house 3k or so cabs, but I think games should be enjoyed on their original formats. I'm not admonishing those with back-ups or anything. To each his own. I just like the feel of playing the real deal.

[Naiera]

I think you completely over reacted there Ed. o.O

I don't. He's sooo right.

[PapaStu]

Ed: I completely agree with you.

Realise that if you collect much of anything for value purposes, your screwed. A guided value is that, a guide, and its only really worth what someone is willing to spend on it.

Sure you can collect Roms. You can collect anything technically speaking. Just dont try to equate that collection to people who have the amased "real" (for the lack of a better word) items of the same kind. Collectors tend to go through alot to get the things they have. Those hunts, those nights spent on eBay and anywhere else that might have something. This action solidify's the purpose to aquire the stuff, and to that individual gives it a true value. What are you going to do, talk about how your online crapped out and you went with out downloading a game for a few days? That you ran out of blank cd-r's and had to run to the store to get another spindel before you could play some more games?

People collect because there is a genuine enjoyment in doing so. I collect my games because I like to, I have fun doing so, have made friends and learned alot along the way. That said I am proud of what ive gotten. If you are just as happy with your burns, then power to you. But most (not all) people who do burn, tend to float from game to game, play it for a day, and never touch it again. Why? Because there is another game to do it all over again with. Ruining the purpose of the game, no matter how mediocre it might really be, and that is to play and enjoy it. When it comes down to it, I really think that this is comparing apples to oranges, theyre both fruit, they just arnt the same thing, people will have a preference and there is little to be done to convince them otherwise.

Thats my few pennies worth,
Stu

[AB Positive]

I'm somewhere in the middle of this...

emulation has it's place. It's nice to play games that weren't meant to be played with others online for example (Kaillera). Also, especially for expensive games, it's nice to know if you'll actually enjoy the game before picking it up.


However I couldn't condone hoarding cd-rs with no intention of getting the real thing. It's not supporting the hobby (which could really use support now and again) and it has a cheapening effect to the person obtaining the backups. I say nay in the case presented in the first post.


I however, will save my pee for those who really deserve it. Politicians and most lawyers for example ;)

-AG

[gamergary]

I used to collect RPG roms when I was broke, then the collection turned into a website, then became too popular and I had to put it down. But I still update the files every now and then. It's fun searching out new and obscure Japanese RPGs. Most sites list them by name so you have no clue what most of these game really are even when you download a full goodness collection.

And of course people mail me ISOs every now and then and I hold onto them to play when I haven't bought the game yet, or to copy and trade.
you mean thisisnotapornsite.com and the other rpg classics? I used to hang out in the chat room a lot. I only have downloaded 2 dreamcast games and one was freeware. I don't really buy backups but I have the backups of my playstation games just in case they stop working anymore.

[calthaer]

The valor of collecting the "real" copies of games aside - those copies won't last forever. CDs will eventually wear out; cartridges will have their contacts corrode even quicker I'll bet (or the system that plays them will - can anybody say "NES?"). If that's the case I'm certainly going to be glad I have my backup alongside the rusted metal and yellowed plastic that makes up the "original."

[Griking]

My feelings is if you don't mind playing a backup then play the backup. If you feel the need to have the"real thing" then don't play backups and buy the real thing. Isn't playing the game what its all about in the long run?

[Nature Boy]

I have nothing against it, but getting backups isn't collecting - it's acquiring. Collecting involves more than just the game itself - it's the appeal of the packaging, and hunting for a game at the right price in the right condition. It's displaying what you have as you would a piece of art.

Believe me, I do my share of acquiring - mostly MAME stuff.

[Oobgarm]

As long as you're not strictly picking up backups. If you're supporting the hobby in one way or another, I don't see anything morally wrong with it.

In short:

Hoarders = NO.
Backups within a large collection of originals: OK.

[kainemaxwell]

I still play emulators and roms but don't consider them my collection either. Fun to play games I can't find anymore as well as trying out games I want to buy. My burned DC games aren't on any my collection lists since they're just that, burned backups.

[Half Japanese]

I'll admit that I get ps1 and DC games when they're put up on Suprnova. Not often mind you, but I downloaded Intelligent Qube and Tokyo Extreme Racer 2 in the past week (although I have yet to actually put them on a disc). I don't really have a problem with it unless you (like a guy I used to work with) have a big-ass cd case slap full of burned games (his were for Xbox, no less). I, like yourself, would consider myself more of a player and the temptation of a few freebies can't be helped sometimes ;)

Besides, having about 60 current-gen games is more than doing my share of supporting the game market of today so all you haters piss off!

[Flack]

My fairly large collection of backups sit between my MP3 collection and my "warez" collection.

When I say collection, I mean it in the "a bunch of like things together" definition, not in the gamer "collecting" collection.

To spin off of the Commodore 64 thread, this is a topic that almost always instantly divides the "gamers" from the "collectors" in the room. As a gamer, I don't mind at all playing a ROM or an ISO of a game, but I wouldn't call any of them a collection. I would never display them or anything. I use it as a cheap rental service. I download games to rip off Blockbuster, not game companies.

[chadtower]

I play ROMs for a few systems simply because they work better. I get sick of swearing at my NES consoles. I get sick of swapping out cables and such to get an snes or genesis into my setup for a few days. So I play ROMs. I still collect the games, but when I want to play, sometimes I play ROMs.

I'd actually like to start getting into CD backups. Not because I want to avoid spending money, actually the opposite. I want to play through my games like Panzer Dragoon Saga and Dracula X but don't want to put wear on the discs. I'd much rather own the game, play it on the original hardware, but with a backup, then accidentally leave an expensive CD out and have one of my kids throw it on the floor.

Is that collecting backups? No, I suppose not, but it is a valid reason to have them IMO.

[sisko]

Can someone please explain the "cd wear" argument to me? I mean, the discs don't spin fast enough to warp, the lasers aren't hot enough to melt, they aren't glued together like a lot of LDs, so other than careless scratches, how can a CD get wear? This is a serious question, not poking any nerves, if there is something I have overlooked, I may start backing up my CD games too.

As for collecting roms, sure you can collect them. As was stated earlier, you can collect anything. Just don't expect to get a lot of praise for it.

[Cmosfm]

Ok, heres my input...

Do I collect backups? no

Could they be considered a collection? yes

Will they ever be worth ANYTHING other than the cheap ass disk there printed on? no

So you may have a collection of games to play, but when your done playing, your still left with nothing but an ordinary burned CD.

[digitalpress]

I'd actually like to start getting into CD backups. Not because I want to avoid spending money, actually the opposite. I want to play through my games like Panzer Dragoon Saga and Dracula X but don't want to put wear on the discs. I'd much rather own the game, play it on the original hardware, but with a backup, then accidentally leave an expensive CD out and have one of my kids throw it on the floor.

You're defining what a "backup" is supposed to be, and 90% of the time, this is what my backups are for. When I got Suikoden II for PlayStation I backed it up, and I only play the backup. The original is all nice and pristine in its original case. Same with Dracula X, and Dragon Ball Z GT, and even Might & Magic on the Duo.

I also use backups and ROMs for getting screen captures and art for our publications as well, but to me they're resources. To this day, I can't really enjoy playing a ROM on a PC when I could be playing the real deal on the big screen TV.

So I look at the backups as precisely that. "Stand ins" for the real thing. They're part of my collection but they're certanily not collectibles, because they're not worth anything.

[goatdan]

By the definition of a "collection," I have a collection of garbage sitting in my trash can by my desk. I have compiled soda bottles, empty chip bags, old paper and some dust bunnies into a nice display that is kept somewhat near the door.

If you agree that my garbage can is a collection, then I would say that a portfolio of backups is a collection too. If not, then it is just a bunch of stuff that you acquired as someone else mentioned.

I personally don't have a problem with emulation, and I have MAME and an Atari 2600, NES and SNES emulator on my home PC (so that I can play arcade games I may purchase in the future, program 2600 games, play Earthbound Zero since it was never released and play Earthbound, which I own in real life anyway.) All of that said, I do have two problems with burning "backups," which isn't even correct as you can't "backup" something you don't own:

Problem #1 -- Creating backups of currently selling software. As much as the warez piratez like to talk about how their pirating doesn't hurt anyone, the Dreamcast was killed, at least due in large part to the piracy scene. I had a friend who had amassed quite the Dreamcast collection by the end of 1999 with just piraed copies of games. I knew a lot of people that bought the 'Cast and never bought a commercial game. With Sega selling the hardware at cost, that doesn't exactly benefit them.

Problem #2 -- Selling ROMS off. I am sick and tired of looking at Dreamcast auctions online that are for the system, three controllers and 100 warez disks. You should not, under any circumstances, sell ROMs. You downloaded them illegally and then decided to sell them for a profit? What the hell? That aspect of everything really bothers me, and it definitely hurts the hobby.

With the (soon to be) three Dreamcast games that I have published so far, our biggest concern is how rampart the piracy in the Dreamcast community is. If we don't sell a certain number of games, we are losing big-time money on our investment and new games will stop coming out. If piracy causes there to be 50 games that aren't sold, it could be the difference between more games in the future and the end of the homebrew production of games as we know it. It's that simple.

Really, my feeling on it is that emulation is fine, creating media to be played in the actual players is where I change my mind. There are still vendors out in the world who are still selling the original games, and if you play it via emulation and decide to go out and buy it for real, that's not hurting the hobby or anyone in particular. If you're burning a portfolio full of games and never seeking out the originals, you are by no means helping the hobby and in my opinion, are nothing more than a garbage collector.

[chadtower]

Can someone please explain the "cd wear" argument to me? I mean, the discs don't spin fast enough to warp, the lasers aren't hot enough to melt, they aren't glued together like a lot of LDs, so other than careless scratches, how can a CD get wear? This is a serious question, not poking any nerves, if there is something I have overlooked, I may start backing up my CD games too.

You're right, in theory, the mechanism does not put wear on your CD. You, however, do put wear on the CD. You take it out of the case and put it back. You may put it on the table. You may drop it. You may leave it someplace that a 4 year old can grab it and throw it across the room. The mechanism, in theory, does not wear on your CD. Life wears on your CD.

This doesn't account for malfunctioning hardware that can also damage your CD. It happens.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think you completely over reacted there Ed. o.O
Hey, if somebody's going to do things their way, there's really not much I can do about it, right? If you really want to know I just was having a bit of fun posting a rather polarized opinion :D (in my first post especially). Doesn't mean that I'm going to jump down anybody's throat. If I can get somebody to see things my way, I'm happy. If I scare somebody off, well, that's just unfortunate.

That said, "your opinion sucks!" type posts are pretty silly, ya know? So let's not have that.


As long as you're not strictly picking up backups. If you're supporting the hobby in one way or another, I don't see anything morally wrong with it.

In short:

Hoarders = NO.
Backups within a large collection of originals: OK.
This is essentially how I feel. I notice a lot of the folks here talk of backups with the assumption that the player OWNS the original...but in Anthony's original post it seems obvious to me that he's using "backup" as a euphemism for "illegal copy." Game companies don't want us making backups but that's an occasion where I feel gamers are very much justified in giving them the finger and where I'd say game companies are trying to abuse copyright.

Another thing to think about...how many of us can be proud of your gaming room (or fearful that it'll be ransacked while on vacation)? It's very amusing to think that some folks actually PAY MONEY for worthless copies of games...you pay real money for that CD-R or you pay somebody else to burn you a copy. Now that's getting more "use" out of your dollar, but still, when I pay I like to have something to show for it.

[zmweasel]

As much as the warez piratez like to talk about how their pirating doesn't hurt anyone, the Dreamcast was killed, at least due in large part to the piracy scene.

This is the second time (at least) you've posted this claim, which is based on very shaky anecdotal evidence.

I'm certainly not defending the act of piracy, but I think your enthusiasm for the Dreamcast (and for Sega?) is perhaps blinding you to many more significant factors that led to the system's premature demise: Sony's dominance of the videogame industry, PS1 fans and casual gamers saving their dollars for the PS2, developers and publishers who experienced success with the PS1 sticking with the PS2, Sega's horrible relationships with retailers, Sega's ineffective marketing campaigns, et al.

There's rarely a single, simple reason behind the cause of anything, including the failure of the Dreamcast.

-- Z.

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, what about the failure of the FDS? I have a feeling that the trouble was mostly due to diminished profits for developers, but some folks claim units were "pulled from the shelves" as Nintendo was getting sick of piracy (a claim I think completely disregards the fact that disk writer kiosks were seen in stores until recently and that Nintendo would write disks sent to them in the mail until just a few years ago). That's really the other major "piracy done it" story that comes to mind, but there as well I don't see a lot of proof piracy killed off the system (because it didn't "kill" it at all).

I do have problems with folks not paying companies for the games they play, but a lot of these folks would've been game borrowers, renters, and people who wouldn't have bought the title in the first place. It's not the industry's fault that prices aren't low enough for these people to start buying games, but on the other hand the industry really shouldn't try to view owners of illegal copies as "lost profits."

[chadtower]

Well, what about the failure of the FDS?

The what? :?

[zmweasel]

I assumed Ed meant the Famicom Disk System.

-- Z.

[esquire]

Will they ever be worth ANYTHING other than the cheap ass disk there printed on? no

So you may have a collection of games to play, but when your done playing, your still left with nothing but an ordinary burned CD.

I have to disagree with you on this point. CDR burned games are worth something. They are sold on ebay, warez sites, etc everyday. As long as there is a market for them, they are worth that amount.

That being said, you can conversely say that most people's collection of "real" games aren't necessarily worth what we believe them to be. Sure we can look to receipts or "book values" of items, just like with baseball cards, stamps and coins, but until you actually sell the item and receive value for it, it is only worth the cd it is printed on (or to the individual collector, whatever they actually paid for it). There are plenty of people out there who wouldn't pay what we spend on gaming collections. Video game collecting is a niche market, unlike items that have liquid or portable value such as precious gems, gold coins, jewelry etc. There is no stock market for video games. More importantly, there is no guarantee that video games will hold their value.

As for me, I collect both originals and backups. I started collecting Turbo Duo/Pc-Engine Hucards sometime ago, and downloaded isos for the cd based games. Why? At the time I thought collecting CD based games was worthless. Moreover, I was not going to spend $300-$400 for a game like "Sapphire." (No one profits there but the seller - the software company sure as hell doesn't make that). Did I consider those backups part of my collection? Yes. I could play every game that for that system (or at the very least, every game that I wanted to play). As I became more involved in collecting for those two systems, I decided to collect the cd games as well. Why? Because I thought it would be nice to have the originals for the cd games as well. The Turbo Duo/PC-Engine systems, along with the Sega Dreamcast, are my favorite consoles. So, to me the originals are worth more to me. They aren't necessarily worth the $150+ some games go for, but they hold value to me personally.

That being said, I am not going to sit all high and mighty and tell others what to collect. Collect whatever you want. Your opinion and conscious are all that matters when it comes down to it.

[Daria]

you mean thisisnotapornsite.com and the other rpg classics? I used to hang out in the chat room a lot.

That would be the place. I don't remember you from the chat room though. Did you use another screen name? Not that my memory for names is all that good anyway.



That said, "your opinion sucks!" type posts are pretty silly, ya know? So let's not have that.

Not what I ment at all actually. I don't think White-whoever (sorry bad with names and I can't look it up while editing) was trying to devalue real games, or even implying that we waste our time and money by collecting real games. I think he was just pointing out the obvious that ROMs are indeed a lot cheaper. That's all, and the first couple sentence of your post seemed to be blowing up at him, just thought it was a little extreme.

Most of your post I however agreed with. Just not entirely with how you expressed it.
________
XY FALCON GT (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_XY_Falcon_GT)

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't think White-whoever (sorry bad with names and I can't look it up while editing) was trying to devalue real games, or even implying that we waste our time and money by collecting real games. I think he was just pointing out the obvious that ROMs are indeed a lot cheaper. That's all, and the first couple sentence of your post seemed to be blowing up at him, just thought it was a little extreme.
This is a game forum, with fanboys, haters, and tempermental personalities. If I make an angry-looking post it's probably just me being passionate, which is what I intended mine to be, not a personal insult to anybody in particular it's because I care a bit about things. I'm really quite laid back in real life, and I try not to look for fights online about silly things.

[Cmosfm]

Will they ever be worth ANYTHING other than the cheap ass disk there printed on? no

So you may have a collection of games to play, but when your done playing, your still left with nothing but an ordinary burned CD.

I have to disagree with you on this point. CDR burned games are worth something. They are sold on ebay, warez sites, etc everyday. As long as there is a market for them, they are worth that amount.


:o

Pressed for words here, so i'll just use "DUH". If that's the case, which it is, it means the trash in my trash can is worth whatever it was sold for on eBay that time....does that mean I would collect it? no...because it's still just that, trash.

Everything is worth SOMETHING, but I really doubt your argument would mean apples to oranges when it came down to something like an original copy of Dragonball GT for PSone and a burned copy of it.

There may be a market for it, but I see it as nothing but data put onto a $0.25 disk bought out of Best Buy. If someone wants to pay good money for it, so be it, there the idiots paying for it....not me. That doesn't mean it's value is more than $0.25

[Ed Oscuro]

Warning: excessively long and perhaps completely relevant post follows, ignore it at your pleasure ;)


Will they ever be worth ANYTHING other than the cheap ass disk there printed on? no

So you may have a collection of games to play, but when your done playing, your still left with nothing but an ordinary burned CD.

I have to disagree with you on this point. CDR burned games are worth something. They are sold on ebay, warez sites, etc everyday. As long as there is a market for them, they are worth that amount.
I don't follow the CD-R market much, but being worth "something" doesn't meet my critera for being a collectable. What's a burned CD-R worth? Maybe what the original unit of CD-R media would be if divided against the price of the entire box/spindle? Maybe labor fees? You mention eBay, but consider that eBay tries (more or less) to stop illegal copies from being sold. Any collectable you can't even get to the market is a rather bad bet if you ask me. Is a gold Double Eagle from 1933 "collectable" if publicly acknowledging you own a piece will see it confisticated by the U.S. Mint? CD-Rs might just hold the price of that CD-R. I don't see (barring an event like I mentioned earlier - the disappearance of CD-R media and drives from the face of the earth) how the discs would ever manage to outprice the value of the media and labor fees. As quality improvements and technology keeps pushing forward, CD-Rs keep dropping in price so this CD-R "collectable" isn't even keeping pace with inflation or necessarily holding its face value.

Suppose fifty years from now, you see a PS2 on sale with 10 games. You also see another PS2 for sale with 10 games and 10 burned games with it, and the same group of people (the market) are looking at (is considering) both items. Are you going to spend more on that second PS2? What about everybody else? Certainly some folks would pay a bit extra for those "extras," but how much would it realistically be? Is the convenience of buying a preburned game for very little money going to outweigh the fact that it's illegal, you have no bragging rights whatsoever, and that you could concievably make a copy yourself for little cost? At that point would it even be worthwhile to try and make a copy when you could easily find an original?


That being said, you can conversely say that most people's collection of "real" games aren't necessarily worth what we believe them to be. Sure we can look to receipts or "book values" of items, just like with baseball cards, stamps and coins, but until you actually sell the item and receive value for it, it is only worth the cd it is printed on (or to the individual collector, whatever they actually paid for it). There are plenty of people out there who wouldn't pay what we spend on gaming collections. Video game collecting is a niche market, unlike items that have liquid or portable value such as precious gems, gold coins, jewelry etc. There is no stock market for video games. More importantly, there is no guarantee that video games will hold their value.
There's no guarantee that gold will hold its value, or that Van Gogh paintings will, either, and there are instances of both losing much of their value quite quickly. Prices are a reflection of an illusion of worth attributed to them by the public at large. Nothing is really "worth" anything, as you say, until it's been appraised by the public and that highest bidder has paid in full. You can't separate the media's value (which can also slide in either direction) from that of the complete product, since the burned game only has one function. You can look at a gold coin and say "the market on gold says it's worth this much for materials, the coin market says it's worth this much." You can't go backwards with a CD-R to a new product ready to be used for some other purpose. Well, I suppose you could, but what sort of a market is there for a single piece of plastic? The materials value is so low as to not even have value as scrap. Given the plans and proper equipment we can replicate ANY item from ANY materials, if we had the right number of atoms/particles to work with. It sounds far fetched, but this theoretical reality means that we can never be entirely sure of a price. There is no solid base for anything's price. As far as humans go, we determine price on demand, supply, and various other strange and probably impossible to quantify factors such as "taste" and "preference" but these are quite far off from such a state.

Both reproductions and originals may fluctuate in value, but an original is almost always worth more than a reproduction (especially an "unofficial," third-party reproduction made by a different group). "Holding value" isn't a critera for deciding if something is collectable or not; but "desireability" is. You can quantify how much something is worth according to various mystical forces, but you can't quantify how desireable something is. All price guides list rarity information and prices, but they can only offer hazy (and often highly sentimental) personal testaments to how well beloved an item truly is.

Now obviously I've gone out into the stratosphere and a bit far away from practical application, but I think that the basics still apply. Video game collecting is a market like any other, and while some of the mechanics are different, the institutions less solid etc. - the basics all still apply. People who collect games feel the same about them as numismatists feel about their coins and are just as attached to their favorites as the diehard philatelist to their uncancelled Inverted Jenny.

However it happened, somewhere along the line almost everybody seems to agree that copied games aren't proper for a collection. Some folks collect rocks - these can't be copied and aren't mass produced according to a certain specification. On the other hand, some folks collect old boxes of Jell-o - are reproductions the same? A lot of the value of a collectable comes down to being a sentimental character - a reproduction "isn't the same." It's not easily quanitified, but for some reason people have a bias against things that are intended to reproduce another. Coin collectors may collect reproductions, but they often see in these coins qualities that make them unique from the true originals. Perhaps the production method is cheap, but perhaps the difficulty of perfectly reproducing a minting technique not practiced in millennia added value to the coins. Until making CD-Rs becomes a lost art, and folks have to scramble to find plans to create a working unit, there is not really any argument that making a CD-R is adding significant amounts of value to the original unit. Supply meets or perhaps even exceeds supply.


As for me, I collect both originals and backups. I started collecting Turbo Duo/Pc-Engine Hucards sometime ago, and downloaded isos for the cd based games. Why? At the time I thought collecting CD based games was worthless. Moreover, I was not going to spend $300-$400 for a game like "Sapphire." (No one profits there but the seller - the software company sure as hell doesn't make that).
This is true of any media. SNK could only dream of making $10,000 off a single copy of the European Kizuna Encounter cartridge, and it's safe to say that the Nintendo Power Catalog's pricing for StarFox Competition Weekend cartridges is much less than what it currently is. These companies have to produce items and sell them at costs which turn into profits for them, and they have to make sure that people don't have reason to say they're "money hungry" and have put the almighty dollar before ethical conduct. What if SNK had kept a case of European Kizuna Encounter games and tried to sell them much above the game's original cost? We'd say they were artificially fixing the price by keeping copies of a game they knew was going to be rare with an aim to sell them later. With a private game owner/reseller we don't say that - we believe that the seller had limited chances to come across the item and is now selling it at a reasonable price.


So, to me the originals are worth more to me. They aren't necessarily worth the $150+ some games go for, but they hold value to me personally.
What I've been saying right along! Everybody feels the originals are worth more.

Personally, I think you're just being suspicious of CD-ROM media. So am I, so I try to stick to cartridges LOL

Fascinating topic, no doubt about it.

[Gunstarhero]

meh...if you can justify owning nothing but CD-R's of games, then you are the same guy that would think its ok to buy a cubic zirconium ring for your fiancee'.

[esquire]

Will they ever be worth ANYTHING other than the cheap ass disk there printed on? no

So you may have a collection of games to play, but when your done playing, your still left with nothing but an ordinary burned CD.

I have to disagree with you on this point. CDR burned games are worth something. They are sold on ebay, warez sites, etc everyday. As long as there is a market for them, they are worth that amount.


:o

Pressed for words here, so i'll just use "DUH". If that's the case, which it is, it means the trash in my trash can is worth whatever it was sold for on eBay that time....does that mean I would collect it? no...because it's still just that, trash.

Everything is worth SOMETHING, but I really doubt your argument would mean apples to oranges when it came down to something like an original copy of Dragonball GT for PSone and a burned copy of it.

There may be a market for it, but I see it as nothing but data put onto a $0.25 disk bought out of Best Buy. If someone wants to pay good money for it, so be it, there the idiots paying for it....not me. That doesn't mean it's value is more than $0.25

That's because you missed the point of my post....collecting is subjective, not objective. You can own a Mickey Mantle Rookie Card and believe it is worth X amount of dollars, but until you sell it, it is only worth the dollar value you assign to it.

Go out to your average mall in America and take your original Dragonball GT and a burned copy of the same game, and see which one sells first to Joe Consumer. Your average person is not going to give a rat's ass that the original is rare, nor will he pay an exorbinant amount of money to play it. Most people who own video games are players rather than collectors. That's how we all got started collecting, by playing the games we know and love, and now want to collect. Collecting is largely subjective. Sure there is some objectivity to it, for example production run numbers, but it is still mostly subjective. I think the strongest point I can make to demonstrate this is the frequent posts people make regarding rarity in the DPG and what factors should be taken into consideration into determining the rarity of a game.

Now, telling someone their collection of backups is garbage is no different than the people on the other end saying CD based games are uncollectable because you can burn the game onto a CDR or DVDR. It's merely an opinion. In my post I was demonstrating that backups do have value, just not the same value you or I may take into consideration. Why? Because we are collectors, while others are simply gamers only. Those same people may think we are idiots for paying $150 for a Dracula Rondo of Blood PC-Engine game CD when we can play the same game using a CDR and iso.


meh...if you can justify owning nothing but CD-R's of games, then you are the same guy that would think its ok to buy a cubic zirconium ring for your fiancee'.

I am sure many would argue just the opposite, that is, if you save your money by buying cdrs and burning games rather than spending hundreds and thousands of dollars buying original Radiant Silverguns, Panzer Dragoon Sagas, Sapphires and Rondo of Blood, you can buy your fiancee a more expensive engagement ring.

[goatdan]

As much as the warez piratez like to talk about how their pirating doesn't hurt anyone, the Dreamcast was killed, at least due in large part to the piracy scene.

This is the second time (at least) you've posted this claim, which is based on very shaky anecdotal evidence.

I'm certainly not defending the act of piracy, but I think your enthusiasm for the Dreamcast (and for Sega?) is perhaps blinding you to many more significant factors that led to the system's premature demise: Sony's dominance of the videogame industry, PS1 fans and casual gamers saving their dollars for the PS2, developers and publishers who experienced success with the PS1 sticking with the PS2, Sega's horrible relationships with retailers, Sega's ineffective marketing campaigns, et al.

There's rarely a single, simple reason behind the cause of anything, including the failure of the Dreamcast.

Interesting. I suppose that you have read through internal documents from Sega, seen records of Dreamcast hardware and software sales during the lifespan of the system, spoke with development companies about securing the rights to unreleased Dreamcast games, spoke with people in the industry covering Dreamcast games at the time and worked hard to develop anti-piracy techniques for games that you are releasing for the Dreamcast too. Of course, my doing all of that makes me into a fanboy that can only claim "shaky anecdotal evidence." Yeah. Whatever.

Piracy was a HUGE reason the Dreamcast's life ended so early, although it was not the ONLY reason, as my original quote clearly states.

[zmweasel]

As much as the warez piratez like to talk about how their pirating doesn't hurt anyone, the Dreamcast was killed, at least due in large part to the piracy scene.

This is the second time (at least) you've posted this claim, which is based on very shaky anecdotal evidence.

I'm certainly not defending the act of piracy, but I think your enthusiasm for the Dreamcast (and for Sega?) is perhaps blinding you to many more significant factors that led to the system's premature demise: Sony's dominance of the videogame industry, PS1 fans and casual gamers saving their dollars for the PS2, developers and publishers who experienced success with the PS1 sticking with the PS2, Sega's horrible relationships with retailers, Sega's ineffective marketing campaigns, et al.

There's rarely a single, simple reason behind the cause of anything, including the failure of the Dreamcast.

Interesting. I suppose that you have read through internal documents at Sega, seen the records of the Dreamcast sales during the lifespan of the system, spoke with development companies about securing the rights to unreleased Dreamcast games, spoke with people in the industry covering Dreamcast games at the time and worked hard to develop anti-piracy techniques for games that you are releasing for the Dreamcast too. Of course, my doing all of that makes me into a fanboy that can only claim anecotal evidence. Yeah. Whatever.

Piracy was a HUGE reason the Dreamcast's life ended so early, although it was not the ONLY reason, as my original quote clearly states.

I'm not the one making the extraordinary claim, and thus, it's not my job to disprove it; it's your job to prove it.

Have I read internal Sega documents? In fact, I have read a few. I never read any documents in which Sega itself cited piracy as a significant factor in the DC's failure ("failure" being a relative term, of course).

Did I follow the sales of the Dreamcast and its software during its U.S. lifespan? Yes, I did; I was working for a game publisher from '98 to '01, when many of the company's hardcore fans were pushing for us to release a DC product, and so we very closely followed the DC market to determine if it was viable for us.

Have I spoken with developers about obtaining the rights to unreleased DC games? No, I haven't. If those developers directly observed (or even simply perceived) rampant piracy in the DC market, that certainly bolsters your claim.

Did I speak with the people in the industry covering DC games at the time? Practically every day.

Was I involved in DC anti-piracy technology? No. Do I have some experience with anti-piracy tech on other platforms? Yes.

And I'm afraid all your questions still don't change the fact that you're passing off anecdotal evidence and personal opinion as proven fact, in an attempt at what I assume is historical revision.

Piracy was not a "huge" reason (and what does "huge" mean, by your definition? The most significant reason? The second-most significant?) for the DC's failure. Sega's very well-documented corporate incompetence and Sony's very well-documented market dominance were the most significant reasons.

I don't mean to harsh your mellow. I just want you to provide more compelling evidence to back up your claim.

-- Z.

[tyranthraxus]

Yeah you can collect pirate copies. People collect bootleg music on tape,
then on CD and now MP3 is the popular format for fans of rare music.
ROMs are also a way of collecting vinatage video games. I can't afford to
own real protos of unreleased games but I enjoy them via emulation.
I know a guy who collects pirate DVDs and VCDs from Asia. And "back in
the day" I had a massive collection of pirate games for my Commodore 64
and later for my 386.

My game pirating as teenager has fueled my current interest in collecting
64 and PC games. For most games I never saw the box back then so its
a lot of the fun now to actually see the real deal.

They don't have much 'worth' but a lot of people don't have broadband
and a lot of people don't have the time or know how to DL the games
for themselves but paying a few bucks for copies is worth it to them.

I think some one could make an interesting collection of pirate and
counterfiet games. There are some good fakes made and it might be
interesting to see people's different styles of handwriting on labels.

[goatdan]

I'm not the one making the extraordinary claim, and thus, it's not my job to disprove it; it's your job to prove it.

I really don't understand why you think this is such an "extraordinary" claim, but okay...


Have I read internal Sega documents? In fact, I have read a few. I never read any documents in which Sega itself cited piracy as a significant factor in the DC's failure ("failure" being a relative term, of course).

Sega never could or would have admitted that the ease-of-piracy was a significant factor in the DC's failure, however the Dreamcast hardware was redesigned specifically to lock out the MIL-CD capability that was built into the "original" Dreamcast design.

The question of this redesign is interesting, as the actual redesign was done on a completely insignificant amount of hardware. In fact, to date I have failed to locate a console that does not have the MIL-CD capability. The fact that Sega spent a lot of time and money redesigning the hardware to lock out this original "feature" of the system proves that they must have felt that the ability to play pirated material was not in any way helping them, and it was more important to remove the CD-player ability from the machines in order to help sell software.


Did I follow the sales of the Dreamcast and its software during its U.S. lifespan? Yes, I did; I was working for a game publisher from '98 to '01, when many of the company's hardcore fans were pushing for us to release a DC product, and so we very closely followed the DC market to determine if it was viable for us.

I'm sure that you realized that the sales of games per system was not nearly what it should have been. I don't have the document in front of me, but at the beginning of the Dreamcast life, Sega was selling something like 6 games with each Dreamcast purchase (which at launch is an incredible number to boast). At the end of the system life, the average had either remained the same or dropped, and the fact that the Dreamcast hardware sales had slowed meant that software titles were selling less and less on average. The Dreamcast's library did not decline in quality enough to create a drop in the average games sold, so something else had to be the culprit.

Other than piracy, what would the culprit be? The argument that people were saving for other systems isn't valid, as this was strictly people that were purchasing the hardware as it stood. Used games aren't factored in, but neither are used systems. Obviously, *something* has to account for the lack of additional Dreamcast sales. Putting one and one together points to piracy. Like I said, I knew people that had bought a 100 CD spindle and burnt all 'Cast games and never purchased anything but the hardware. Those people helped to bring down the numbers.


Have I spoken with developers about obtaining the rights to unreleased DC games? No, I haven't. If those developers directly observed (or even simply perceived) rampant piracy in the DC market, that certainly bolsters your claim.

At least two Dreamcast games that were going to be released at the end of the lifespan of the system were not released because the publishers felt that with the piracy market how it was, they would not be able to make any profit off the games. There are reasons directly linked to piracy that is standing between these companies and publishing their games at this point, but I cannot violate any trust issues by going into further detail here. Hopefully, one day they may change their minds.


Did I speak with the people in the industry covering DC games at the time? Practically every day.

I'm surprised then that you didn't hear any of them talking about their feelings on Dreamcast piracy as a main reason that the system was taken off the market.


Was I involved in DC anti-piracy technology? No. Do I have some experience with anti-piracy tech on other platforms? Yes.

I wasn't involved with the original DC anti-piracy technology, but I have attempted to develop ways to not have the games that I have published stolen. The biggest problem with convincing the Dreamcast homebrew community to publish a game in the first place was that the feeling was that it would just get pirated immediately anyway, so why put the extra work into a game to polish it? I spent well over a year talking with people before Cryptic Allusion decided to take a chance with Feet of Fury. We developed a few extra things that we could do to help stop piracy on the disk, and to date I have not been able to find any information about the game being pirated and I really hope that we don't.

We haven't made any money from the Dreamcast publishing that we have done yet, and if our games start getting pirated, it will cause a very abrupt end to our publishing efforts I'm sure.


And I'm afraid all your questions still don't change the fact that you're passing off anecdotal evidence and personal opinion as proven fact, in an attempt at what I assume is historical revision.

Piracy was not a "huge" reason (and what does "huge" mean, by your definition? The most significant reason? The second-most significant?) for the DC's failure. Sega's very well-documented corporate incompetence and Sony's very well-documented market dominance were the most significant reasons.

Huge would be either the most significant or the second most significant reason for the Dreamcast's early demise. To back this up further, examine the following:

- The PS2 had performed extremely poorly during the Christmas season of 2000, as there was a shortage of systems, quality software was not available (the number one selling title with the Dreamcast was the first Matrix DVD, as was well documented. In fact, bleem!cast outsold every PS2 title launch week, but wasn't counted as software since it isn't really a game.) and the system generally didn't live up to the hype. It was hard to find many people that really thought the PS2 was awesome immediately, but that is all but forgotten now.
- Perhaps the one reason that is bigger than the piracy issue -- when the President of Sega Sholchiro Irimajiri steps down and was replaced by Isao Ohkawa. Sholchiro Irimajiri was the one who really pressed ahead with he Dreamcast even though the company was not fully behind doing another console after losing their butts on the poorly managed Saturn. As soon as Isao Ohkawa took over, the Dreamcast was as good as dead. The fact that developers were pulling out of the system due to the fact that software was not increasing in sales and other systems were being released, it made his decision a lot easier to make.
- Sony's market dominance was overrated. Yes, Sony made a killing by selling the PS2 at launch, but the Dreamcast had a userbase of over 5 million installed systems. 5 million installed systems over two years is nothing to sneeze at. Compare that to a system like the Jaguar even that hung on with less than 1 million systems for three years. Why couldn't developers sell enough games to profit on a system with 5 million installed users?
- The announcement of the Dreamcast's death came at a very odd time. The industry was buzzing about how the Dreamcast could possibly hold up against the other consoles. Sega comes out and says that the system may be discontinued because of the fact that Sony is too powerful. Why is it that Sega would announce that the system "may be" discontinued if they didn't fully plan on stopping production. This announcement immediately killed off all of the buzz that the Dreamcast had and transferred it to the Sony machine one week before the announcement that the Cast was being discontinued. Had Sega done like any other console manufacturer and not announced that they were discontinuing the system but instead dropped it to $99.95 and slowly stopped making software, they would have definitely sold more.
- Games that were completely translated and heavily promoted went unpublished in America but were published in European markets. The European market had less of an installed userbase. Why did Headhunter, Rez, Shenmue II and others go unreleased in America?

Ultimately, while the Dreamcast did pass away thanks to a plethora of different reasons and not all of them were piracy, the fact is that piracy is an underlying reason of most of them and is definitely one of the most signifant reasons the system died out. Sega handled the death in a way to immediately generate interest in their PS2 offerings and not get anything more out their Dreamcast stock including games they had in development. They stopped the releases of games that for all practical purposes were 100% ready to be released in America.


I don't mean to harsh your mellow. I just want you to provide more compelling evidence to back up your claim.

I can do so, but you acted and act like I can know nothing about the system and I am nothing more than a fanboy of Sega. I don't mean to be overly vague in my postings about the subject matter but I usually am when it comes to this because:

1) I'm publishing software for the Dreamcast
2) I would like to secure rights for unreleased Dreamcast games for possible future publication and can't go around quoting others from private conversations

Also, this email isn't 100% accurate on everything, and if I had another hour or so to sit here and retype stuff I can make an even more convincing argument. The fact is I spent well over an hour putting this all together and I need to get to sleep. Between the Midwest Gaming Classic and putting the final touches on those Dreamcast games, I don't have much time right now.

[goatdan]

Just wanted to quickly link to things from the topic above...

Sega spent a ton of time and money redeveloping the Dreamcast hardware to make it impossible for the 'Cast to play backups and then subsequently released very, very few of these consoles (if any). This was done under the presidency of Sholchiro Irimajiri who felt that the Dreamcast should continue to be pushed for the foresable future. The hardware redesign was completed in October of 2000.

Isao Ohkawa took over and felt that the Dreamcast was a losing prospect and therefore axed the system almost immediately after the hardware redesign was implemented.

Had Sega / Sholchiro Irimajiri not felt that piracy was hurting them and/or had Sega / Sholchiro Irimajiri believed that they could have been knocked out by Sony within a few months of the redesign, it would have never taken place. The redesign was done with the plan of continuing sales against the PS2 and stopping piracy.

[esquire]

Not sure how this turned into a Dreamcast thread, but I guess I'll throw my hat into the ring. I'm not really taking sides here, and I'm certainly not as informed as you two guys are, but I will say this:

Most of the people I know who bought Dreamcasts bought the system only because you could pirate the games for the system. To them the Dreamcast was not otherwise worth it. Thus, piracy fueled hardware purchases. To me, whether or not it actually caused the Dreamcast's demise is sort of a chicken and egg argument. Like I said, many people would never have bought the DC but for the ability to pirate games.

Piracy never hurt the sales of Playstations or Playstation 2s. I think the Dreamcast problem was software development. Yes Capcom and Namco put out some very nice releases, but there were far more bombs (Soul Fighter, Prince of Persia, Dragonriders of Pern, Spirit of Speed, etc) than classics. And I love my Dreamcast, its my second favorite classic console next to the my NEC consoles - Turbo Duo/Core-Grafx II.

[goatdan]

Not sure how this turned into a Dreamcast thread, but I guess I'll throw my hat into the ring. I'm not really taking sides here, and I'm certainly not as informed as you two guys are, but I will say this:

Most of the people I know who bought Dreamcasts bought the system only because you could pirate the games for the system. To them the Dreamcast was not worth to buy otherwise. Thus, clearly piracy fueld hardware purchases. Whether or not it actually caused the Dreamcast's demise is sort of a chicken and egg argument. Like I said, many people would never have bought the DC but for the ability to pirate games.

Piracy never hurt the sales of Playstations or Playstation 2s. I think the Dreamcast problem was software development. Yes Capcom and Namco put out some very nice releases, but there were far more bombs (Soul Fighter, Prince of Persia, Dragonriders of Pern, Spirit of Speed, etc) than classics. And I love my Dreamcast, its my second favorite classic console next to the my NEC consoles - Turbo Duo/Core-Grafx II.

The challenge was laid for me to back up a small claim that I had in my argument, so I took it :) The difference about PS1's and PS2's is that PS1's needed mod chips to play burnt games for the longest time and CD burners were not readily available at the beginning of the PSX's lifespan (are PSX games burnable now without a mod chip? I don't follow the PSX really although I own one) and the PS2 has the games on DVDs which again are not nearly as prevalent as CD burners now.

When Sega released the Dreamcast, CD burners were prevalent and the system allowed "backing up" onto CDs as well as Sega's decision to create MIL-CD support.

Also, I really don't think there are that many "bombs" in Sega's library. In fact, other than the titles you named, I could only think of a few other titles that were widely regarded as poor. I have played through most of my collection, which is only missing one US release now, and I have not found more than 30 or so games to be what I would consider poor quality. This feeling has been echoed by a lot of different people that I know.

[zmweasel]

Sega never could or would have admitted that the ease-of-piracy was a significant factor in the DC's failure, however the Dreamcast hardware was redesigned specifically to lock out the MIL-CD capability that was built into the "original" Dreamcast design. The question of this redesign is interesting, as the actual redesign was done on a completely insignificant amount of hardware.

Indeed, this seems like a case of closing the barn door after the horses have bolted. Then again, perhaps the redesign was done under the assumption that Sega would sell the Dreamcast for a "normal" console lifespan of roughly five years--but the demand for additional systems never materialized, so the redesign only appeared in the final, feeble hardware runs.

There is, of course, a precedent of console hardware being redesigned in order to combat piracy; Sony yanked the expansion port from the PS1 to nullify the GameShark's copy-protection circumvention and hacking abilities. So the DC redesign isn't what I'd call an unusually vigorous response to a widespread problem; more of a natural evolution.


The Dreamcast's library did not decline in quality enough to create a drop in the average games sold, so something else had to be the culprit. Other than piracy, what would the culprit be? The argument that people were saving for other systems isn't valid, as this was strictly people that were purchasing the hardware as it stood.

I personally agree that the Dreamcast's library is of fantastic quality, arguably the highest quality of any game system yet made. But the sales figures didn't reflect that same kind of enthusiasm amongst mainstream America. They were buying PS1 (and, to a lesser degree, N64) games.

It's also very unusual for a game system's software:hardware ratio NOT to drop over the course of the system's lifetime. In fact, I can't think of a single system which has run contrary to that pattern. Was it an unusually swift drop in the case of the DC? I'd have to break down the numbers to know for sure.


Like I said, I knew people that had bought a 100 CD spindle and burnt all 'Cast games and never purchased anything but the hardware. Those people helped to bring down the numbers.

Again, anecdotal. I observed untold amounts of PS1 piracy, which obviously had very little effect on that system's success. Then again, the DC's much smaller userbase meant that each individual pirate had a more damaging effect.

However, whenever you claim that piracy kills software sales, you have to address the question, "Would pirates buy all the games as they've pirated?" And of course, the answer is no. So then you have to try and guess how many DC software sales were lost to piracy, and your claim is already tenuous without the added burden of make-believe numbers.


At least two Dreamcast games that were going to be released at the end of the lifespan of the system were not released because the publishers felt that with the piracy market how it was, they would not be able to make any profit off the games. There are reasons directly linked to piracy that is standing between these companies and publishing their games at this point, but I cannot violate any trust issues by going into further detail here. Hopefully, one day they may change their minds.

This is very interesting stuff, the most compelling evidence you've presented by far, and I hope you can someday reveal which games they were.


I'm surprised then that you didn't hear any of them talking about their feelings on Dreamcast piracy as a main reason that the system was taken off the market.

Afraid not. These were journos at all the major enthusiast websites and magazines, so they weren't out of the loop by any means. Hell, a few journos are the most active pirates I've ever known. None of them ever blamed or perceived piracy for the DC's downfall.

I can also tell you that piracy as a reason for the DC's demise wasn't mentioned by any of the other publishers with whom I chatted during my time at Working Designs. For them (as for us), it was the simple fact that Sony ruled all. That's why I'm burning to know the IDs of the games you mention. What did those publishers (or developers) see that no one else saw?


The PS2 had performed extremely poorly during the Christmas season of 2000, as there was a shortage of systems, quality software was not available (the number one selling title with the Dreamcast was the first Matrix DVD, as was well documented.

How do you define "performed extremely poorly"? Hardware sales? Software sales? The system shortage was a drag for Sony, which could've sold many more systems within the Xmas window, but I wouldn't call its sales performance "poor." Selectively quoting an NPD press release:

"PORT WASHINGTON, NEW YORK, November 9, 2000 – The Sony PlayStation 2 video game platform brought in an estimated $165 million dollars in retail sales in the U.S. during its first three days on the market, October 26 through October 28, 2000, according to leading marketing information provider, The NPD Group, Inc.

"PlayStation 2 hardware captured 75% of the next-generation console unit business during its first week on the market. PlayStation hardware declined from a share of 53% of the consoles sold the week before the PS2 launch to 12% between October 22 and October 28, 2000. Nintendo 64 and Dreamcast dropped from a combined share of 47% of the console units sold prior to the PS2 launch to 13% during the launch week. However, PS2 competitors actually did not suffer major sales slumps. Sega Dreamcast experienced a 25% increase in their console unit volume."


In fact, bleem!cast outsold every PS2 title launch week, but wasn't counted as software since it isn't really a game.) and the system generally didn't live up to the hype. It was hard to find many people that really thought the PS2 was awesome immediately, but that is all but forgotten now.

Were early adopters disappointed with the PS2 launch titles? Yeah, I'd agree with that statement. A considerable majority seemed to be bummed with everything except Madden and SSX. It wasn't until E3 '01 that the PS2 library really got exciting.

Incidentally, I've never found independent stats that back up the claim of bleem!cast outselling Madden and SSX on the PS2's launch week. Does anyone know if those numbers are somewhere on the Web?

(Not that this number is particularly relevant, since Madden and SSX both went on to sell a million-plus copies each, but I'm curious.)


Perhaps the one reason that is bigger than the piracy issue -- when the President of Sega Sholchiro Irimajiri steps down and was replaced by Isao Ohkawa.

We're in agreement on Sega'a legacy of managerial missteps as a primary factor in the DC's downfall, then.


Sony's market dominance was overrated. Yes, Sony made a killing by selling the PS2 at launch, but the Dreamcast had a userbase of over 5 million installed systems. 5 million installed systems over two years is nothing to sneeze at. Compare that to a system like the Jaguar even that hung on with less than 1 million systems for three years. Why couldn't developers sell enough games to profit on a system with 5 million installed users?

Is it possible for the dominance of the best-selling home videogame console ever made to be "overrated"? I don't know that it is.

Five million systems (sold in, or through?) in two years isn't terrible, no. But it quite frankly pales in comparison to the PS1, and PS2. Five million systems would've been a fine total before 1995, but the PS1 forever changed the definition of success.

Even Sega, in the FY 2001 annual report where it announced the DC's death, admitted that the rules had changed:

"Conditions surrounding the game market are in tremendous upheaval and have regrettably necessitated substantial changes to the traditional business model for home game units."


The announcement of the Dreamcast's death came at a very odd time. The industry was buzzing about how the Dreamcast could possibly hold up against the other consoles. Sega comes out and says that the system may be discontinued because of the fact that Sony is too powerful. Why is it that Sega would announce that the system "may be" discontinued if they didn't fully plan on stopping production.

I wouldn't say the timing was especially odd. Sega was in dire financial straits. The "may be" hedge was probably to see if anyone thought Sega's withdrawl from the Hardware Wars was a bad idea. No one (with a financial stake in Sega's survival) did.


Had Sega done like any other console manufacturer and not announced that they were discontinuing the system but instead dropped it to $99.95 and slowly stopped making software, they would have definitely sold more

Yeah, Sega would have sold more systems, but it would have lost more money in the process of doing so. You're obviously well-versed in Sega's history, so you surely realize that the company was practically drowning in red ink just a few years ago. Washing its hands of hardware and throwing itself headlong into third-party software development made the most financial sense.


Games that were completely translated and heavily promoted went unpublished in America but were published in European markets. The European market had less of an installed userbase. Why did Headhunter, Rez, Shenmue II and others go unreleased in America?

They all WERE released in America--just not for the DC. Was this because Sega was afraid the games would be pirated into oblivion on the DC, or because Sega felt its efforts were better spent converting the games to the more robust PS2 format? It's certainly not as if Sega hadn't screwed over its loyal supporters before, after all.


Sega handled the death in a way to immediately generate interest in their PS2 offerings and not get anything more out their Dreamcast stock including games they had in development. They stopped the releases of games that for all practical purposes were 100% ready to be released in America.

Which, again, I don't perceive as because of DC piracy; I perceive it as Sega (correctly) assuming that DC games wouldn't sell, but PS2 games would.


2) I would like to secure rights for unreleased Dreamcast games for possible future publication and can't go around quoting others from private conversations

Having spoken with Michael Thomasson at GDG at length about this insane process, and having supplied him with a Sega CD game for which he's STILL struggling to obtain the rights, I understand why you need to keep the full extent of your knowledge on the down low, and I respect you for your perseverance.


Also, this email isn't 100% accurate on everything, and if I had another hour or so to sit here and retype stuff I can make an even more convincing argument.

I greatly appreciate your taking the time to outline what you have. I'm still far from convinced that piracy was the #1 or #2 (or #3) reason for the DC's demise, but you've made a few solid points for debate and discussion.

-- Z.

[goatdan]

I tell you what -- a few quick general responses to your reply and then PM me or something on or after May 24th when I can have free time again and I'll chat at length with you about more stuff.

The couple quick things I'll say is that while knowing people that had spindles of 100 games doesn't mean that 100 games were not sold, it was to illustrate a point that there was Dreamcast hardware being sold just because you could pirate for it easily. While I'll readily agree that a pirate won't purchase 100 games if they hadn't burnt them, I would believe that they purchased at least one... or two...

Lets say that 100,000 pirates did not purchase any games because of their ability to pirate. Lets say that these same pirates would have only purchased one software title if they did not have the abilty to pirate and half of them would not have even bought the 'Cast...

50,000 x 1 x $40.00 = $2,000,000.

With how the Dreamcast was performing, even if that was all that piracy was costing, it was a pretty notable number. And you're absolutely right about how the pirate numbers have to go, but if you are looking at releasing a game and you think that 50,000 people will pirate it and only 250,000 people will want it, that is a pretty good percentage of piracy.

To link this a little more together, if the Dreamcast sold 5 million units and the average purchaser bought only 6 Dreamcast titles, then each Dreamcast game sold on average 136363 copies (using the 220 number for titles released). It really makes you wonder for every game like NBA 2K1 and Shenmue how many Mr. Driller's, Cannon Fodder's or Samba de Amigo's were sold...

The number of games sold in comparison with the number of systems released just didn't make sense. When you have 200ish releases over a two year period, with most of them being agreed upon as of a great quality, your best sellers should not remain the launch set when the system has been installed in five times as many systems.

Anywho, I need to get some stuff done so I'll leave this argument for a month be where it is now. :)

[calthaer]

so other than careless scratches, how can a CD get wear? This is a serious question, not poking any nerves, if there is something I have overlooked, I may start backing up my CD games too.

The mechanism, in theory, does not wear on your CD. Life wears on your CD. This doesn't account for malfunctioning hardware that can also damage your CD. It happens.

Besides that, I was thinking more along the lines of chemical wear. Unless you are storing your CDs in a vacuum with zero dust and exact temperature and humidity control all that sort of nonsense, the CD will eventually become unreadable. Nobody really knows how long that will take right now, because it hasn't happened yet (for commercially-produced CDs...I have, however, had home-burned CDs crap out on me due to oxidyzation). If a particular CD has defects, or is kept on a shelf in direct sunlight, or if there's a lot of humidity in the room, or whatever - that lifespan could be shortened.

And, to re-iterate what Chad said - every time you put that thing in a player / console / PC / whatever to do something with it, you are taking a risk with it. In my opinion, if it's possible to copy the disk and play with the copy - by all means do it. Why take a chance with your Radiant Silvergun when it would be such a huge pain to replace it?

[Hamsnibit]

Well, I'm a gamer first and a collector second. I personally don't want to collect stuff I'll never use. I have complete rom collections for just about every console. I have tons of backups for modern systems. I cannot afford to buy every game I want to play. I do buy as many as I can though. I also go back and buy some that are my favorites and that I will replay from time to time.

[Anthony1]

Basically, my view is, that as long as I can somehow play the game on the "actual" console, with the "actual" controller, then I really don't care what the form of the game is. Whether it be a copied CD, or some type of flash cart or something.

I'm strickly just a gamer, and I just want to play the damn games. There are so many games that I would like to check out, that it just isn't feasable for me to purchase every one.

Originally, I started out doing that. I bought only originals. But about 3 thousand dollars later, I decided that I just couldn't keep spending that kind of coin on these old outdated games that are sold via retail anymore.


If I had a Flash Cart device for any of my cart based systems, then I wouldn't even buy the actual carts for them. But I don't have a flash card device, so I buy carts all the time. Probably about 5 to 8 Cart games per week.

I definitely have more admiration for my collection of loose carts, then I do my collection of backed up CD games. I like carts better. The fact that they are actually phsyical items. CD's just don't have that appeal to me. So I really don't care if it's a generic CD-R with the words "Battle Garrega" written on it. But I do enjoy my cart collections.

Although I would have to say that if at some point I got some type of flash cart device that allowed me to play the games on the "actual" system, I would probably just do that. I'm not sure if I would sell of all my carts though. I like looking at them and remembering the old days.

But my main criteria is:

1. Can I play the game on the actual system, with the actual controller on a RGB monitor?

If I can play the game on the real system on a RGB monitor, then I'm cool.

I don't really care that much what form that game takes. Just what I see on the screen and hear in the speakers and control with the gamepad.

As for Piracy in general, I'm not a fan of it. That is, when it comes to "current" systems. I don't have any backed up copies of PS2, XBOX or GameCube games.

But for all the older systems, It's all gravy!!!!!

[zmweasel]

I tell you what -- a few quick general responses to your reply and then PM me or something on or after May 24th when I can have free time again and I'll chat at length with you about more stuff.

Good deal. I'll counterpoint your points and shut my mouth 'til then.


50,000 x 1 x $40.00 = $2,000,000. With how the Dreamcast was performing, even if that was all that piracy was costing, it was a pretty notable number.

So you're valuing each unsold game at its full retail value, as opposed to its wholesale value, or how much it would cost to manufacture, or market, or ship. Right away, we're in disagreement as to how these made-up numbers should be formulated.

Also, a mere $2M in a multi-billion-dollar industry is chump change. Hardly an epidemic, and hardly damaging to Sega or the DC market. The best-selling individual DC games made far more than $2 million each.


And you're absolutely right about how the pirate numbers have to go, but if you are looking at releasing a game and you think that 50,000 people will pirate it and only 250,000 people will want it, that is a pretty good percentage of piracy.

So, using your own estimate, 20% of Dreamcast owners were engaged in piracy?! That's a staggeringly high number, an epidemic of illicit activity on an unprecedented scale in the history of videogame consoles, and yet I never anyone involved in the DC market at the time referring to a piracy crisis.


To link this a little more together, if the Dreamcast sold 5 million units and the average purchaser bought only 6 Dreamcast titles, then each Dreamcast game sold on average 136363 copies (using the 220 number for titles released). It really makes you wonder for every game like NBA 2K1 and Shenmue how many Mr. Driller's, Cannon Fodder's or Samba de Amigo's were sold...

Had I access to the NPD database as I did at WD, I could tell you, with a reasonable degree of accuracy, how many copies each of those games sold. I can assure you, however, that the average DC game sold FAR fewer than 136,000 copies. Then again, the average PS1 game sold far fewer than 136,000 copies, as does the average PS2 game.

Mr. Driller, Cannon Fodder (was that released for the DC? I think you mean something else), and Samba de Amigo didn't reach the six-figure plateau, but for far simpler reasons than piracy. Sega itself knew Samba was a quirky game in a genre that, with the exception of DDR, has never made an impact in America; Mr. Driller was a low-profile puzzle game for which Namco had modest sales goals.

The sales pattern is the same with every console; a relative handful of titles sell millions, another smallish chunk sells hundreds of thousands, and the considerable majority struggles to reach six- (or five-, or four-) figure sales.

If the average DC owner bought six games, it's quite likely that one of those games was Sonic Adventure, one of them was Soul Calibur, and two of them were the latest NBA and NFL entries. That doesn't indicate piracy; it indicates triple-A games and American-gaming interests.

Speaking from personal experience at Working Designs, when the company sold 100,000 copies of Alundra, Victor was ECSTATIC. That was a major hit--not just by the standards of a very small company, but by any game-industry standard.


The number of games sold in comparison with the number of systems released just didn't make sense. When you have 200ish releases over a two year period, with most of them being agreed upon as of a great quality, your best sellers should not remain the launch set when the system has been installed in five times as many systems.

Now you're arguing that games of great quality should always sell big numbers, which is silly for several reasons: 1) Whose definition of "great"? Critics? Consumers? Yours? 2) Many "great" games (by my personal definition) haven't sold jack squat. Why? Piracy? Poor marketing (always a Sega weakness)? Themes that didn't appeal to mainstream/casual/American gamers (lately a Sega weakness)? The first is the only one you can see with your own eyes, but the second and third are much more significant.

Also, it's not unusual for a system's launch titles to remain some of its best-selling or most popular games. (Halo is a prime example.) You must also consider that the DC's shortened lifespan prevented triple-A second- and third-generation titles from usurping the launch library.

-- Z.

[esquire]

Not sure how this turned into a Dreamcast thread, but I guess I'll throw my hat into the ring. I'm not really taking sides here, and I'm certainly not as informed as you two guys are, but I will say this:

Most of the people I know who bought Dreamcasts bought the system only because you could pirate the games for the system. To them the Dreamcast was not worth to buy otherwise. Thus, clearly piracy fueld hardware purchases. Whether or not it actually caused the Dreamcast's demise is sort of a chicken and egg argument. Like I said, many people would never have bought the DC but for the ability to pirate games.

Piracy never hurt the sales of Playstations or Playstation 2s. I think the Dreamcast problem was software development. Yes Capcom and Namco put out some very nice releases, but there were far more bombs (Soul Fighter, Prince of Persia, Dragonriders of Pern, Spirit of Speed, etc) than classics. And I love my Dreamcast, its my second favorite classic console next to the my NEC consoles - Turbo Duo/Core-Grafx II.

The challenge was laid for me to back up a small claim that I had in my argument, so I took it :) The difference about PS1's and PS2's is that PS1's needed mod chips to play burnt games for the longest time and CD burners were not readily available at the beginning of the PSX's lifespan (are PSX games burnable now without a mod chip? I don't follow the PSX really although I own one) and the PS2 has the games on DVDs which again are not nearly as prevalent as CD burners now.

When Sega released the Dreamcast, CD burners were prevalent and the system allowed "backing up" onto CDs as well as Sega's decision to create MIL-CD support.

That may be true, but unless you were a pirate or very familiar with mIRC or warez sites, the average Joe could not back up GDROMS for the Sega Dreamcast.

1. GDROMS are not readable in a CDROM or DVD drive. In order to actually read the game disc, it is my understanding the pirates had to somehow hook up a DC to their PC as a dive to actually read the games. With PS games, they could be read on CD drive. So Joe Blow could go to a video rental store and rent a PS game, take it home, copy it and return it. While he couldn't do the same with a DC game. He would have to somehow know how to connect his DC to his PC, which most people didn't, or know where to find isos, again most average DC owners didn't know this either.

2. In order to play a backup on a DC you needed a boot disc, action reply or mod chip. Again, since most DC users didn't know where to find isos, I will say that most people didn't know where to find a boot disc. So the ability to play pirated games is not as easy as you make it out to be. Plus, the original PS1s didn't require a modchip to play pirated games. You could use the swap method, sort of like with the Saturn. You could also use a Game Shark to play backups on the PS1 but Sony caught on to this and eliminated the port on later PS1 models into which the Gameshark plugged into.

3. While CD burners dropped in price by the time the DC was on the market, they were not that much more expensive when the Playstation was hacked. Keep in mind that until recently (with the advent of DVD burners and their reduction in price) CD burners pretty much stayed the same price, it was merely the technology of the burner itself that changed. Thus, a 2x burner in 1997 pretty much cost the same as 12z or 24x burner in 1999 and 2000. DVD burners did not play a factor into the priacy of the DC as no DVD pirate games were released. I am not even sure if the DC could read a DVD.

4. Even you had your DC hooked up to your PC and could read DC games, you still had to "rip", "downsample" or "loop" audio, fmv etc on the games themselves to make them fit onto a CDR. This is not an easy process unless you are familiar with such. I followed the DC warez scene closely as it happened and I can tell you the whole process was not as easy as you make it out to be, especially to the average Joe. First games were with CDDA music and used the boot disc. Then CDDA games were made by downsampling, looping etc. Then the DC pirates discovered that if the ISO was not filling the whole CDR the DC laser would go crazy and take a long time to read the game. So a dummy file was created to fill up the rest of the disc. Then the games were made self-bootable, meaning the boot disc was no longer required. Games were ripped to fit on 2 or 3 discs. Later, Sega started putting protection on the games themselves. This had to be overcome as well before the games could be hacked. This is not something that the average Joe could do. Now Sony did put some modchip protection on some games late in the PS1's life, but on the average it was much easier to pirate a PS1 game than a DC game.

5. Most of your argument could really be used with the Saturn rather than the DC as Saturn games were easily pirated. There was no protection on the games. Only a modchip was required. Yet piracy did not play into the demise of the Saturn. Why would Sega make the same argument with DC but not the Saturn?

[Cmosfm]

Ok, I have to point something out that has been bugging me. People keep mentioning (not just this discussion, in others also) how it's OK to copy an old game but there against copying new ones. Why? I mean, basically you're saying that you'll play a copy of a NES game that costs about 5.00 for the original cart but not a copy of a 30.00 GBA game. BUT the main point of most of you that are for "backups" is that you want to save money. Kinda contradictory isn't it? Sounds to me like you'll download a GBA rom just as fast as a NES rom, you just know that so many people here are agains't it that you prefer to keep yourself in the green zone by saying you're "against it".

Personally, I am a collector first and foremost, a gamer second, and a cheap ass all around. I will buy a GBA game for 5.00 in a heartbeat, not matter what it is and probably never play it, but if a new GBA game comes out that I want to play you wont catch me buying it, I'll just download it...but if I see it later for 5.00 its mine! Don't get me wrong, I am not a game hoarder that never plays games, I just don't have time to at home due to work and rabit game hunting obsessions.

I'm not against emulation, hell, emulation gets me by at work all day (especially mame). But I must say, as a collector, I'd much rather pay 150.00 for a rare PSone game than a pirated copy for 2.00...regardless if I am going to play it or not, which is usually not. I think I'll take my 2.00 and buy an NES game I don't have yet.

[Daria]

Ok, I have to point something out that has been bugging me. People keep mentioning (not just this discussion, in others also) how it's OK to copy an old game but there against copying new ones. Why?


There's nothing wrong with copying a game you already own new or old. It's the downloading I'm against.

Downloading new games is blatent piracy. And when I say I'm against downloading GBA roms I'm not saying that to be a hypocrite. I've never downloaded one and I never will download one. If I don't have the money for the game then I'm just plain shit out of luck. But hey I've got plenty of games to entertain myself with I don't need to start stealing profiets from Nintendo.

And I realize that I could buy games used and Nintendo would never see a dime of the money I spent on the games but it's the principle of the thing. Downloading new games is an easy habit to fall into and pretty soon you can find yourself putting off buying that certain new game because "eh. I've already played it."

But hey old shit is fair game. The companies no longer make any profiets off sold NES cartridges so it's really hurting no one if I download the games. And hell while I'm at it I might discover a new gem I've never even heard off and run straight off to ebay to bid on a copy. Emulation of older obsolete systems promotes Nostalgic gaming and introduces new audiences and age groups to games they never would have tried before.

I don't emulate to be cheap. Fuck there's nothing about this hobby that's cheap to me. I regularly buy games that I have backups of. I just like to try new old games. (:
________
Toyota w transmission history (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_W_transmission)

[brykasch]

Couple of counter points here-

1. How much time do you guys who have alot of roms and cdr's have to play games? The reason I ask is I have tons of games (about 400 alotogether) and I could never find time to play em all, I do what I can in the free time I have and then move on to the next game, if I had 100's of cdr's they would just sit there or just get tried once and thats it. Its not a gamer vs collector argument, if I get tired of an actual game I can sell it and get my money back usually, or trade it. Can't do that with a cdr. And I never buy a game full price, with rare exceptions. Mario Kart was the last full price game and that was because of the demo cd with it.

2.Yes people download bootleg cd's etc of concerts, hell I do t, but only because its not commercially available. If they were I would buy em (and I only have about 65 of these).

3.No I don't illegally download anything commercially released anymore, and I will tell ya why, my kid. I know it sounds preachy, but its hard to instill some morality to a child when he sees you with nothing but copied music, software, games, I mean how can you tell them not to do something bad, when you already are. I see no problems having backups of the software you own. Hell I do it with all my os's and software, and to a certain extent certain games (about 4 all turbo duo), I do it with my disney dvd's as well. I use emulator and roms with my dc, but only on games I own. Its easier to go through a bunch of games on a cd on my dc then to sort through games especially when you want to play multiple games in a sitting. And I do have a full set of rom's for mame, and I am in the process of building a cab with a computer and monitor to xperience mame the right way. But hell if I could pay for the roms I would. Once I get a house I plan on getting a few cabs, but right now space limits that.

4. No matter how you try to spin it downloading games hurt sales of current systems. You wanna try out a game rent it simple enough, granted that doesn't always work for import games, but you get the idea. I look at it this way, you like fast cars, well a friend says he has one for free, but its stolen, do you take it? It may not be the best analogy, but you get my point.

[Anthony1]

Ok, I have to point something out that has been bugging me. People keep mentioning (not just this discussion, in others also) how it's OK to copy an old game but there against copying new ones. Why? I mean, basically you're saying that you'll play a copy of a NES game that costs about 5.00 for the original cart but not a copy of a 30.00 GBA game. BUT the main point of most of you that are for "backups" is that you want to save money. Kinda contradictory isn't it? Sounds to me like you'll download a GBA rom just as fast as a NES rom, you just know that so many people here are agains't it that you prefer to keep yourself in the green zone by saying you're "against it".

.


I can't speak for anybody else, but the reason that I don't do it with the currently available systems, is because doing that would actually effect the industry in a negative way. In my opinion, having a CD-R of a Saturn game that I don't own, doesn't negatively effect anybody. If it affected anybody it would be people "RESELLING" the game on Ebay, not the actual company that developed or published the game. And since the people that are selling it on Ebay are asking for more money than I would ever pay, it isn't even affecting them, because I would never pay that much anyways. Their target market is the collectors, which I don't happen to be.

So if I were to have backed up copies of PS2 games, and XBOX games and GameCube games and GBA games, then I would be negatively affecting our current game industry. And all the money that I've spent on XBOX and GameCube and GBA games would have never been spent, thus taking away a very minute amount of money from the publishers and developers of the games that I've bought. Sure it is a super tiny amount to them, but all the people that are doing that starts to really add up.

There will be a point in time, when the XBOX and PS2 and GameCube are old, outdated, crusty systems that are no longer sold in the retail chain, and I can imagine that I wouldn't have a problem collecting the backups of those systems at that point. But until then I will just stick with the old schools, and buy the occasional new game that I think is a absolute must own game, like Halo 2.

[Flack]

4. No matter how you try to spin it downloading games hurt sales of current systems. You wanna try out a game rent it simple enough ...

Let's say I want to check out Madden 2004. I can rent it from Blockbuster, play it for a week, and return it. EA makes $0, Sony makes $0, Blockbuster makes $5. Or, I can download it and play it for a week. The only difference is, Blockbuster doesn't make the $5. If the game is a game that I was only planning on renting, then that doesn't hurt sales.

As far as console piracy being complicated, there is a learning curve that is continually dropping. For example, figuring out how to dump Dreamcast games took brains and talent. Downloading ISO's from the net and burning them takes neither. Same with modding your PS2. I'll give full props to the guys who figured out how all that stuff works, but simply adding a chip to your PS2 today doesn't deserve a reward. Anyone with an ounce of interest in the matter should be able to figure out what's going on within an evening of surfing. Look at the Gamecube. There are people out there hacking on it right now, trying to make it do shit it was never intended to do. That's cool. I can only guess that someday it will lead to the development of a boot disc. Then when people download it they act all cool ... big deal, you downloaded something that someone else spent a year researching. Woo.

And, for what it's worth, buying or selling cd-r copies of games is in bad taste and bad for your karma as well. If you're downloading a ROM to play on your computer, that's one thing. To make money off of someone else's hard work is something else.

[davidleeroth]

I doubt Blockbuster has downloaded their Madden so already there's money coming to happy chaps EA and Sony. ;)
I don't how the rental stuff is handled over there but I take a guess that you can't begin renting games without paying a fee to Sony (or whoever owns the license) first.

[PapaStu]

Nope, its simpler than that. The company/store that wants to rent the title just has to go and buy it from a distributor or even a store. Put it on the shelves and rent away.

Its almost the same with dvd's now. At least with VHS the rental industry gouges you, and charged in excess of $100.00 a tape for the store to buy. Now adays, the chain can get the dvd's at retail price, or whatever arrangement that they have with the movie firms.

Stu

[Nature Boy]

I cannot afford to buy every game I want to play.

I can't afford to buy the type of car I want - should I just steal it?


People keep mentioning (not just this discussion, in others also) how it's OK to copy an old game but there against copying new ones. Why?

Human nature. No matter what you do (copying games/stealing cable/etc.) you'll come up with a moral justification for it. Some of us have decided to draw the line at the newer systems. In my case it's an effort to continue to support the industry. Once PS3 or 4 is out there I'll likely have a PS2 emulator for my PC running. But until then I'll play and buy PS2 games.

On the "Dreamcast" discussion front:
I personally think gamers (and critics) *greatly* underestimate the powers of marketing. It's too easy to forget that this is a business - a *big* business. And we (forum dwellers, magazine subscribers, etc. )are but a *small* part of the overall market (John Q Gamer who likes playing NHL 2004 with his buddies say, and has no need for anything else).

[Kid Ice]

4. No matter how you try to spin it downloading games hurt sales of current systems. You wanna try out a game rent it simple enough ...

Let's say I want to check out Madden 2004. I can rent it from Blockbuster, play it for a week, and return it. EA makes $0, Sony makes $0, Blockbuster makes $5. Or, I can download it and play it for a week. The only difference is, Blockbuster doesn't make the $5. If the game is a game that I was only planning on renting, then that doesn't hurt sales.



Didn't EA make money when they sold the game to Blockbuster? Didn't Sony make money when they sold EA the license?

[Oobgarm]

4. No matter how you try to spin it downloading games hurt sales of current systems. You wanna try out a game rent it simple enough ...

Let's say I want to check out Madden 2004. I can rent it from Blockbuster, play it for a week, and return it. EA makes $0, Sony makes $0, Blockbuster makes $5. Or, I can download it and play it for a week. The only difference is, Blockbuster doesn't make the $5. If the game is a game that I was only planning on renting, then that doesn't hurt sales.



Didn't EA make money when they sold the game to Blockbuster? Didn't Sony make money when they sold EA the license?

Sony and EA are out of the equation at this point. They've made their money and they don't see $$ from any rentals by BBV.

Same thing could be said about store like GS and EB.

[TheSmirk]

Because we are collectors, while others are simply gamers only. Those same people may think we are idiots for paying $150 for a Dracula Rondo of Blood PC-Engine game CD when we can play the same game using a CDR and iso.

Thats sums it up perfectly, forget the moral and legal and social implications. Some people care about having the box, manual, original plastic that surounded the cart, spine card, catalog etc.etc. and some just want to play the damn game or at least check it out.

Personally I'm right on the fence with topics like these. I've been "complete-ist / purist" with a good amount of my gaming purchases, and there's been times where ".....hey I got an ISO of "Ill Bleed", or "Macross: Do you remember love" want a copy to check it out??" Well , for the time and effort (practically none) I'm not gonna turn that down, its a step or three shy of being asked "hey want a free game?" although I've turned down plenty of burned games over the years, simply because I had no interest in them, even just to check out.

Would I amass a "collection" of CDR games, No, and quite a few titles that I've *cough* "previewed" ;) I ended up buying, and the ones I don't buy the CDR ends up in the trash fairly quick. I know it sounds like the usual "I'm a good pirate" arguement, but thats true and thats just my take on it, your mileage, motives, personal experience or conscious may vary :)

[Daria]

4. No matter how you try to spin it downloading games hurt sales of current systems. You wanna try out a game rent it simple enough ...

Let's say I want to check out Madden 2004. I can rent it from Blockbuster, play it for a week, and return it. EA makes $0, Sony makes $0, Blockbuster makes $5. Or, I can download it and play it for a week. The only difference is, Blockbuster doesn't make the $5. If the game is a game that I was only planning on renting, then that doesn't hurt sales.



Didn't EA make money when they sold the game to Blockbuster? Didn't Sony make money when they sold EA the license?

Sony and EA are out of the equation at this point. They've made their money and they don't see $$ from any rentals by BBV.

Same thing could be said about store like GS and EB.

Except if enough people burned instead of renting then block buster would drop buying certain games for rent and not only would Sony eventually lose sales but you'd cripple the non-pirates who were actually renting the games.

Yes that's a little extreme, but again pirating new games is a bad habit to fall into. You want to play something new? Rent it, Buy it, or borrow it. Dowloading is outright stealing.
________
Herbalaire vaporizer (http://herbalairevaporizer.com/)

[Oobgarm]

Except if enough people burned instead of renting then block buster would drop buying certain games for rent and not only would Sony eventually lose sales but you'd cripple the non-pirates who were actually renting the games.

Yes that's a little extreme, but again pirating new games is a bad habit to fall into. You want to play something new? Rent it, Buy it, or borrow it. Dowloading is outright stealing.

It's a lose-lose situation with renting games, as you've shown above. I'm a staunch advocate against downloading games off the 'net that you can still purchase somewhere. Buy it , rent it, whatever, but don't download it.

[Buyatari]

You can also collect gold Double Eagles from 1933 (though you can't legally own them),

10 gold double eagles slipped through the cracks in 1933. All 10 were recovered 9 of which were destroyed. The US goverment sold the last one at auction a year or two ago and it sold for some crazy ammount. 8 million or something.

Soooo if you had the money you could legally own all the 1933 double eagles left in the world. All 1 of them.

Adam

[optic_85]

Can backups be considered a collection? IMO.....No. Backups are just free files, on almost worthless discs. A collection is something you have to hunt for, not download on overnet or something.....Now, im not saying that i dont have any backups. I have a little over 10 maybe, and i like them, but if i were listing my collection i wouldnt list them.

ALSO, off-topic, but does anyone no some sites where i can dl some saturn backup files? PLEASE! I need them! There arent nearly enough Saturn files on overnet...

[Daria]

Can backups be considered a collection? IMO.....No. Backups are just free files, on almost worthless discs. A collection is something you have to hunt for, not download on overnet or something.....Now, im not saying that i dont have any backups. I have a little over 10 maybe, and i like them, but if i were listing my collection i wouldnt list them.

ALSO, off-topic, but does anyone no some sites where i can dl some saturn backup files? PLEASE! I need them! There arent nearly enough Saturn files on overnet...

That's a little ironic... if you have to hunt for Saturn ISOs can they be considered collectible?
________
N02 VAPORIZER (http://vaporizerinfo.com/)

[optic_85]

I was aware of the irony......And i still stand by my statement, but im a retard when it come to finding websites for roms & backups that work. So c'mon help a newbie out!!!

[Daria]

I was aware of the irony......And i still stand by my statement, but im a retard when it come to finding websites for roms & backups that work. So c'mon help a newbie out!!!

I usually trade my ISOs for a real game. There really aren't any good places to download Saturn stuff since Dal Net died. And most places that carry Sega CD stuff and the like charge you to download them. I don't think they even bother with Saturn since it wasn't really emulate-able until recently.
________
166 Inter (http://www.ferrari-wiki.com/wiki/Ferrari_166_Inter)

[Flack]

I can't afford to buy the type of car I want - should I just steal it?

Let's compare apples with apples. What if the car was no longer being sold new, and you could walk by and make a digital copy of the car so that the owner never knew you had a copy? Have you hurt the new car companies? Not if you weren't planning on buying a new car anyway. Have you hurt the car industry? Actually, you've helped it. You're going to have to buy oil and gas and tires just like everyone else. The person who owns the car hasn't lost anything, the new car companies haven't lost anything, so the only people you've ripped off are the sleezy second hand car dealerships.

[Li Wang]

Let's compare apples with apples. What if the car was no longer being sold new, and you could walk by and make a digital copy of the car so that the owner never knew you had a copy? Have you hurt the new car companies? Not if you weren't planning on buying a new car anyway. Have you hurt the car industry? Actually, you've helped it. You're going to have to buy oil and gas and tires just like everyone else. The person who owns the car hasn't lost anything, the new car companies haven't lost anything, so the only people you've ripped off are the sleezy second hand car dealerships.

Spot on. It amazes me that people still use the ridiculous "OMG INTERLECTUAL PROPERTY = TEH PHYSICAL PROPERTY!!!" argument.


I was aware of the irony......And i still stand by my statement, but im a retard when it come to finding websites for roms & backups that work. So c'mon help a newbie out!!!

I guess the Classic Sega Direct Connect hub wouldn't be a bad place to start looking. classicsega.homeunix.com. Just don't show up with nothing to share.