Coming Soon to a game collection near you: CD Rot

[Charlie]

By PETER SVENSSON, AP Technology Writer

Dan Koster was unpacking some of his more than 2,000 CDs after a move when he noticed something strange. Some of the discs, which he always took good care of, wouldn't play properly.



Koster, a Web and graphic designer for Queens University of Charlotte, N.C., took one that was skipping pretty badly and held it up to the light.


"I was kind of shocked to see a constellation of pinpricks, little points where the light was coming through the aluminum layer," he says.


His collection was suffering from "CD rot," a gradual deterioration of the data-carrying layer. It's not known for sure how common the blight is, but it's just one of a number of reasons that optical discs, including DVDs, may be a lot less long-lived than first thought.


"We were all told that CDs were well-nigh indestructible when they were introduced in the mid '80s," Koster says. "Companies used that in part to justify the higher price of CDs as well."


He went through his collection and found that 15 percent to 20 percent of the discs, most of which were produced in the '80s, were "rotted" to some extent.


The rotting can be due to poor manufacturing, according to Jerry Hartke, who runs Media Sciences Inc., a Marlborough, Mass., laboratory that tests CDs.


The aluminum layer that reflects the light of the player's laser is separated from the CD label by a thin layer of lacquer. If the manufacturer applied the lacquer improperly, air can penetrate to oxidize the aluminum, eating it up much like iron rusts in air.


But in Hartke's view, it's more common that discs are rendered unreadable by poor handling by the owner.


"If people treat these discs rather harshly, or stack them, or allow them to rub against each other, this very fragile protective layer can be disturbed, allowing the atmosphere to interact with that aluminum," he says.


Part of the problem is that most people believe that it's the clear underside of the CD that is fragile, when in fact it's the side with the label. Scratches on the underside have to be fairly deep to cause skipping, while scratches on the top can easily penetrate to the aluminum layer. Even the pressure of a pen on the label side can dent the aluminum, rendering the CD unreadable.


Koster has taken to copying his CDs on his computer to extend the life of the recordings. Unfortunately, it's not easy to figure out how long those recordable CDs will work.


Fred Byers, an information technology specialist at the National Institute of Standards and Technology, has looked at writeable CDs on behalf of government agencies, including the Library of Congress (news - web sites), that need to know how long their discs will last.


Manufacturers cite lifespans up to 100 years, but without a standardized test, it's very hard to evaluate their claims, Byers says. The worst part is that manufacturers frequently change the materials and manufacturing methods without notifying users.


"When you go to a store and buy a DVD-R, and this goes for CD-R as well, you really don't know what you're getting," he says. "If you buy a particular brand of disc, and then get the same disc and brand six months later, it can be very different."


This renders the frequently heard advice to buy name-brand discs for maximum longevity fairly moot, he says.


DVDs are a bit tougher than CDs in the sense that the data layer (or layers — some discs have two) is sandwiched in the middle of the disc between two layers of plastic. But this structure causes problems of its own, especially in early DVDs. The glue that holds the layers together can lose its grip, making the disc unreadable at least in parts.


Users that bend a DVD to remove it from a hard-gripping case are practically begging for this problem, because flexing the disc puts strain on the glue.

Rewriteable CDs and DVDs, as opposed to write-once discs, should not be used for long-term storage because they contain a heat-sensitive layer that decays much faster than the metal layers of other discs.

For maximum longevity, discs should be stored vertically and only be handled by the edges. Don't stick labels on them, and in the case of write-once CDs, don't write on them with anything but soft water-based or alcohol-based markers.

Also, like wine, discs should be stored in a cool, dry place. Koster's friend Mark Irons, of Corvallis, Ore., stored his CD collection in a cabin heated by a wood-burning stove. The temperature would range between 40 degrees and 70 degrees in the space of a few hours. Now, the data layer of some of his CDs looks as if it's being eaten from the outside.

Irons is still pretty happy with CD technology, since it beats vinyl LPs and tape for longevity. Now that he's moved his discs to an apartment with a more stable temperature, he's noticed that the decay has slowed.

"I'm hoping they'll hold out till that next medium gets popular, and everyone gets to buy everything over again," he says.

[Kamino]

lets just hope this was a problem with shitty 80s cds and not our saturn games.....
this simply adds to my case of why i dont use dvd cases though, cd binder - easier removal - less strain!

[Daria]

Also, like wine, discs should be stored in a cool, dry place.

Well at least there's a plus side for leaving the ac on all day. :/
________
Black live (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/webcam/ebony-girls/)

[Ed Oscuro]

Might help to put 'em in an airtight container with a pack or two of silica gel :)

Crappily made CDs seem to be the problem, but really, how are you to know if the CD is well made or badly made?

[PapaStu]

In the many years that i've worked music retail (4 1/2 and counting) ive not come across this problem. I worked at Wherehouse Music, who basically pioneered the Used business on a corporate level. I got used cd's returned because of scratches, and I got some back that had clear clear cover damage (that aluminum top the article was talking about). But I dont ever remember getting any cd with "cd rot". If they didnt play, it was because of a scratch, or a genuine manufacturing defect that affected more than a seconds worth of music (like a pin prick would). Some of the cd's might have had a few very very small holes, (hell I've got a few Cd-R's of local bands that ive bought at club shows that were like that) but had shown NO degradation to the music what so ever.

I'm sure that part of it is care, and part of it is the plastic used in the making of the disc. As its exposed to heat and cold, it probably messes with the makeup of the plastic in the cd breaking that thin protectve layer causing the oxidization.

[davidleeroth]

Only a matter of time before IBM introduces the next-gen media storage...

punch cards!

[Nez]

Ive had one cd to go bad and it has the classic symptoms with the little spot worn off it was an old crappy pny cd r so I think that has a lot to do wih it.

[maxlords]

I've had this happen to ONE Saturn game. That's the only time I've EVER seen it happen to any CD game. Had a copy of Elevator Action Returns that was rusting slowly along the edge. It was weird. Never seen another game that did that.

[allsport11]

Yeah, this problem started way back with Laserdiscs. That's how I learned to never stack LD/CD/DVD, awlays store vertical. Usually occurred from poor quality materials or bad manufacturing. I will have to post a list of the harder to come by Laserdiscs that had this problem for those of you who might collect them. ;)

[swlovinist]

Thank gosh that my collection is 85% carts! :D

[YoshiM]

From the way it sounds, it just looks like shoddy/cheap manufacturing was the guy's problem. I'd like to know what CDs that dude had problems with. Were they from K-Tel? As for the woodburning stove problem-if the temperature is going to fluctuate that much then yeah you are bound to have problems with more than just your CD collection. However I'm guessing that the CDs are probably in the same room as the woodburner. If they were in other rooms, the temperature change would be more gradual which probably wouldn't affect the discs.

Like anything, if taken care of pressed CDs and probably CDRs will last for a long time. I know a few people who frequent here have LPs and I know almost everyone probably has audio tapes that probably outlasted the player they played them on.

[Ed Oscuro]

Audio tapes? Every player in my house still works (and we have some old ones), and yeah, audio tapes seem great at withstanding abuse. I know of one made in the 1960s (back before you could tape episodes of shows, my father taped part of the "Checkmate" episode from The Prisoner show. I think it started stretching or something around 1998 when I listened to it a few times (back before we had any DVD box set for the series, I still haven't watched that show though LOL ). So audio tapes are definitely benefiting from redundancy and having the signal spread pretty thick across the tape, but the format is much less reliable for precise transcription of audio. Still can make a wicked copy of a program from the 1980s on them, though...beep zhabeep bebeep...

I haven't seen any of my own CD-ROMs going bad, but I'm pretty sure the oldest one I own (and can look at, so a copy of Y's 1 and 2 for the PC-Engine doesn't count) would be Dracula X, which looks just fine to me.

I would assume it's a good idea to make backups of your stuff and get the originals in airtight containers, though, if you've got any sort of significant investment in them. You don't have to slab 'em like coins but keeping them away from the air can't be a terrible idea.

[dreamcaster]

Well, it seems my years of being incredibly 'anal' with CD care has paid off. LOL

[Ed Oscuro]

It would be one of those cases where you have a better chance leaving the item wrapped, heh heh

[Azazel]

Most of my cds are Saturn and PC Engine and none of them have any problems playing.

[Bratwurst]

This is silly sensationalism and a topic that's already been brought up before.

It's vain to think anything is going to last forever but I can understand the fear of an 'investment' going kaput prematurely.

Thing is this guy had 2,000 discs, the ratio of discovering bad presses is naturally going to be higher, and I'm sure as a collector he had some very old albums (As in first run) where the technology for producing CDs wasn't up to matching the standards later implemented.

I predict the next new format will be a non-volatile, electronic rewritable media that will require no moving parts- and we have that already. Flash RAM, just a matter of it developing to the point where it can be manufactured extremely cheaply.

[Ed Oscuro]

That's the thing, manufacturing it cheaply. It might not have any moving parts and essentially gives you battery backed save RAM without the battery, but the stuff is expensive. Nintendo just managed to come up with 128MByte carts, and while they're really small they won't hold the next generation of "state of the art" game programs.

The next format will be Blu-Ray ~50GB technology, really.

As for the fear being unwarranted...sure, but concern and taking appropriate precautions isn't. If you've got a $50+ game disc it's not a bad idea to keep it locked away, anyhow.

[autobotracing]

that also happens if you dont keep the tops of the disks clean.The oil from your skin can also damage a cd if left on the top long enough.

[christianscott27]

i'm transfering all my games to the only method approved by carl sagan and the JPL


http://www.astronomija.co.yu/istorija/letovi/voyager/disc.jpg

golden CEDs!

[chadtower]

I'm going to memorize the bit patterns and learn to yodel them into a microphone... that way I don't have to worry about bit rot, just mind rot, and when my mind rots away I'll have bigger problems than not being able to play Burning Rangers.

[Flack]

All of the first CD-R's I burned now have errors. The bottoms of all the discs are flaking off. One day I was copying files off of one of those CD-R's when all of a sudden I started getting read errors. When I pulled the disc out of the drive, the inside of my cd tray was covered in gold glitter. I was able to transfer about 75% of the software off of those discs.

Those are all discs that I burned in late 1994 and early 1995. In November of 1994 three of us at work went in on a ten pack of blank CDs. If I remember correctly it was $100 for 10 blanks. I bought four, the other two guys split the three.

I haven't had any problems with data loss from either CD's or CD-R's since then.

[Daria]

As for the fear being unwarranted...sure, but concern and taking appropriate precautions isn't. If you've got a $50+ game disc it's not a bad idea to keep it locked away, anyhow.

Kinda puts a damper on a room of doom though. "Wow look at my impressive... wall to wall stacks of plactic air tight containers"

:P
________
Morphine Rehab Forum (http://www.rehab-forum.com/morphine-rehab/)

[Ed Oscuro]

Haha you got me LOL

[charitycasegreg]

All I got to say is that sucks for the person who has 20 percent of them damaged.

[Aussie2B]

I've had some issues with temperature. I haven't had anything become unplayable or problematic, but I have had many music CDs and games become "foggy" looking. Shouldn't be too hard to remedy, but I'm apprehensive to start wiping them (and ending up with scratches). I never once had this problem in Washington state (with its nice, mild climate), but in NYC the temperatures can get crazy... Unfortunately, due to all the remodeling and moving around within our house we've done, I can't pinpoint the exact place and reason that caused it. I'm hoping that now we're in the basement apartment (which is generally cooler) it'll be less of a concern. However, I know I'm a moron for keeping a bunch of music CDs on a shelf right next to a window, which happens to be right above a heater. :/

[Captain Wrong]

Irons is still pretty happy with CD technology, since it beats vinyl LPs and tape for longevity.

Yeah, we all know about the dreaded LP Rot. x_x Stored and handled properly, I guarantee you an LP will last longer than a CD.

That said, I do think this article is a bunch of scaremongering. Seems like an article like this comes out once a year. I got on the CD bandwagon early and I think the oldest discs in my collection are from 83/84 and they still play perfectly. I'd be willing to wager that the discs people had problems with were defective to begin with but the defects were small enough to pass quality control (assuming there was some).

As for the pin prick holes, I remember hearing about that for the first time in the late 80s. You could go out to the store today and buy a disc and (assuming it didn't have printing on the top) hold it to a light and see spots where light shines through. That isn't necessarly "rot", it's just a quirk of manufacturing.

[rbudrick]

Yeah, we all know about the dreaded LP Rot. Stored and handled properly, I guarantee you an LP will last longer than a CD.

Yeah, cuz we all know how many games were on LPs. :hmm: :roll:

Ok, so there's this:
http://www.kempa.com/blog/archives/000053.html
Scroll down to the fourth pic.....


Now, are you guys ready for 100 Terabyte discs?:
http://www.dntb.ro/users/frdbuc/hyper-cdrom/hyper.htm

Yep.

-Rob

[Captain Wrong]

Yeah, we all know about the dreaded LP Rot. Stored and handled properly, I guarantee you an LP will last longer than a CD.

Yeah, cuz we all know how many games were on LPs. :hmm: :roll:

Ok, so there's this:
http://www.kempa.com/blog/archives/000053.html
Scroll down to the fourth pic.....

WOW!!!!


I always wondered if anyone did this, considering they used audio tape for home computer storage back in the day and there really was no reason someone couldn't put that on a record.

Very cool.

[dj898]

interesting reading guys.
anyone remember bubble memory from early 80s? Guess it's time for its revival or crystal rod I heard few years back with terra byte capacity...

p.s. AFAIW only Fujitsu in Japan tried bubble memory for its home personal computer, FM-8.

cheers

[BenT]

The original Gradius coin-op used something called bubble memory too, to store its "rom" data. Uncoincidentally, most of those boards are no longer functional.

[norkusa]

Will rot happen to *all* CD's? I collected laserdiscs for a while, and experienced laser rot first-hand. From what I understood, rot doesn't occur on all laserdiscs, just ones that were poorly manufactured (there is even a complete list off all the rot-prone titles out there too). Are CD's different, or is it just the poorly made discs that will rot out before their time?

[wberdan]

I think I can honestly say that this will affect a VERY small percentage of compact discs.
Not storing compact discs correctly is far more likely to cause them to mistrack.
It's my opinion that this is either a problem with early plant production, or storage/handling issues.
I have delt with a lot of cd's, and know lots of other people that have (like so many of you do, im sure)- and have NEVER had a problem with this.

Don't worry about it

willie

[wberdan]

Will rot happen to *all* CD's? I collected laserdiscs for a while, and experienced laser rot first-hand. From what I understood, rot doesn't occur on all laserdiscs, just ones that were poorly manufactured (there is even a complete list off all the rot-prone titles out there too). Are CD's different, or is it just the poorly made discs that will rot out before their time?

From what *I* have heard, "laser rot" is likely to happen to a majority of laserdiscs at some time or another, due to some chemical used in manufacturing.

willie

[Sph1nx]

All of the first CD-R's I burned now have errors. The bottoms of all the discs are flaking off. One day I was copying files off of one of those CD-R's when all of a sudden I started getting read errors. When I pulled the disc out of the drive, the inside of my cd tray was covered in gold glitter. I was able to transfer about 75% of the software off of those discs.

Those are all discs that I burned in late 1994 and early 1995. In November of 1994 three of us at work went in on a ten pack of blank CDs. If I remember correctly it was $100 for 10 blanks. I bought four, the other two guys split the three.

I haven't had any problems with data loss from either CD's or CD-R's since then.

I have the same problem flack. Not only from my non name brand cds but a few from kodak and other manufacturers.

[TheScaryOne]

All of the first CD-R's I burned now have errors. The bottoms of all the discs are flaking off. One day I was copying files off of one of those CD-R's when all of a sudden I started getting read errors. When I pulled the disc out of the drive, the inside of my cd tray was covered in gold glitter. I was able to transfer about 75% of the software off of those discs.

Those are all discs that I burned in late 1994 and early 1995. In November of 1994 three of us at work went in on a ten pack of blank CDs. If I remember correctly it was $100 for 10 blanks. I bought four, the other two guys split the three.

I haven't had any problems with data loss from either CD's or CD-R's since then.

Yeah that happened to a lot of my CD-R's. Oddly enough it also happened to my copy of the Jet Set Radio Future/ Sega GT Disk that came with my Xbox. :o

[Darkness X]

*Looks at PS1 and Saturn games* Even though I take good care of my games, that article has got me scared!

[Captain Wrong]

Look, I'm telling you. Take it from someone who has owned a CD player since the mid 80s and has probably 1000+ discs. The ONLY ones I've ever had "go bad" were due to mishandling. Period. An article like this pops up at least once a year. Sometimes in music magazines, sometimes DVD. It's like the "is there a silent killer in your house?" type stories local news reports run.

As for Lazerdiscs, the problem there was the glue they used to stick the two halfs togethere. For a double sided LD (and DVD for that matter), they had to stick two single siders together. It took a while for them to find a glue that would do the job without causing problems on down the road. Early discs were espically prone to this.

[Jibbajaba]

15 to 20% of his collection? Come on...

Isn't it more feasible that the so-called "CD-rot" was caused by something that he did or some chemical present in his house or blatant mishandling of his CDs? Maybe its something that his CD player is doing. If an appreciable number of people were losing 15-20% of their CD collection it would be a much bigger deal than a Yahoo! news story about some dumb asshole and his collection of Frankie Goes to Hollywood CDs. :roll:

[PapaStu]

Look, I'm telling you. Take it from someone who has owned a CD player since the mid 80s and has probably 1000+ discs. The ONLY ones I've ever had "go bad" were due to mishandling. Period. An article like this pops up at least once a year. Sometimes in music magazines, sometimes DVD. It's like the "is there a silent killer in your house?" type stories local news reports run.

Im standing behind Captian Wrong here 100%. Like i said earlier having worked retail music for over 4 years, and handling tens of thousands of cd's there (many of them used) not counting the 1000+ that I personally own. Ive never seen this. I can see some early cd's coughing out and dying (those from the early 80's) and the cd-r's dying because of the general lack of a solid cover. Older cd's had just that mirrored cover with band names and the like on them. Those are the most prone to damage because there really isnt anything there to prevent a chip from occuring on the surface that will take out a chunk of the cover resulting in the loss of data. Same goes with cd-r's. They are manufactured as cheap as possible, and those protective covers are mighty tiny. Newer cd's have full color integrated covers that are meant as a protective barrier to try and save the data on the other side.

This is indeed one of those OMG!!1!11 scare tactics that shows up on tv ever time there is sweeps running.

Like anything that is taken care of its lifespan lasts way longer than it could otherwise. ::thinking of all those old tin toys with original paint jobs on them and with boxes from the 30's (like seen on Antiques Roadshow) and the Gi Joes that I had when I was 3::

[The Manimal]

This shit is for real. I am 100% anal about everything, and these are not caused by mishandling. For example, cd's bought NEW from Best Buy, only played probably ONCE, held to light have visible hole(s) in them. They play fine for now. Example, Aerosmith 'Done With Mirrors'. I think this is going to happen to many, however you cannot tell on discs where there is a label on the thing. This is why older discs are being pointed out...they generally didn't have labels on them; just text. I notice these problems far more with discs where the aluminum layer extends to the edges of the disc. For example, old PDO discs. ELEKTRA, ala Dokken's 'Back for the Attack'...most copies I have seen have tons of holes in them, or even the silver looks like it is flaking off on the edges. Same goes for Rush's 'Presto', AC/DC's 'Razors Edge', Belinda Carlisle's 'Belinda'....quite a few.

I don't know what to say. You shouldn't see like 30 holes in a disc when held to light. I imagine the laserdisc fiasco for the cd market. Hopefully I won't have a 1000+ collection to be thrown to the dumpster eventually. I really think that VINYL is still the way to go, though I don't buy those as the main format like I should. Granted I've noticed these holes for years, but I never knew what to make of them; whether they were there from bad stamping, or if they were actual deteriation. I was hoping the former, and that they wouldn't be something that gets worse. I could re-purchase many discs, but after examination, it is far more than 20% for me, probably around 30%...due to the fact that I mostly listen to older music, much of which has not been reissued.

[whoisKeel]

Everybody seems to be skeptic of this article...but CD manufacturers have been claiming this 'cd rot' as fact since day one. They are not going to last forever plain and simple. It just so happens that however or whatever this guy did, sped up the process. I've always heard 50 years, but that articles claims 100...so really, nobody knows...yet. I'd say there's a good chance your music/game collection will outlast your lifetime, but I'm a little worried about the preservation of our generation's art. Take a look at film and how quick that deteriorates, luckily we've got a preservationists taking care of that, but it's not like they can even attempt to preserve all the films. As of now, the only thing I see as a fool-proof preservation of our music and games is, ironically and unintentionably, internet piracy. As users constantly exchange, back up and trade, the data will be transfered from upgrade to upgrade of technology. Just my $.02 :)

[Ed Oscuro]

Hopefully I won't have a 1000+ collection to be thrown to the dumpster eventually.
CD-ROM jewel cases don't come with all the goodies a floppy game usually does, but those disks will certainly go bad over time. Ain't stopping me from buying them.

As for LPs...I realized some time after this topic had died that at my work we've had the same laserdiscs running in players more or less every week - often every day - since 1998, with time to cool down overnight. The biggest hazard to a LD is the drive going funky and spinning it against the tray; you'll get black marks along the outer edge of the disc where it made contact. The disc will still work, just not 100% correctly (later data will be corrupted and the disc will freeze/skip).

As for CD-ROM rot, well, the process seems to have been perfected by the time CD-ROM games like The 7th Guest, Dracula X and what have you hit the market. None of my CD-i or PC-Engine Super CD-ROM^2 games have any defects at all. If you're into eighties music or indy/early dic games made on cheap media then this might be a problem eventually. Unlike floppy disk games, though, I think it would be fairly evident if a disc was going funny so you'd probably have time to make a backup.

[GaijinPunch]

Wherehouse Music, who basically pioneered the Used business on a corporate level.

I remember where this started... or at least the ones in the Dallas area. Some guy at a Flea Market... opened a bunch of stores, and boom... the next day their Warehouse Music. Not sure if he actually sold out or what, but I'm sure he's sitting back laughing either way.

[DasCrewShtool]

I have experienced this with my Laser Disc collection, the disks look great physically but there is major glitches in some of my older movies, I take great care of my collection but it seems to have no effect on this problem.

[Crono-]

ah yes... This CD rot has also got me worried. i don't really want to lose my 400+ cds,games, and DVDs.

Hopefully since my oldest CDs were made in 1995, the rot won't start anytime soon. :o

[anagrama]

Yeah, cuz we all know how many games were on LPs. :hmm: :roll:

Ok, so there's this:
http://www.kempa.com/blog/archives/000053.html
Scroll down to the fourth pic.....

WOW!!!!


I always wondered if anyone did this, considering they used audio tape for home computer storage back in the day and there really was no reason someone couldn't put that on a record.

Very cool.


Drifting OT here, but there were also Spectrum games/demos given away with early 80's UK mags that were on 7" flexis :)

[dethink]

only time i've had a problem with this is CD-R's with no label affixed. i'm an anal retentive curator of indie rock, and i have a case logic binder of about 100 albums burned just to leave in the car. in case someone decides to break in, i'm not out the $ for 100 hard to find albums, friends of mine often aren't as respectful of my babies as they should be, and my old car had a sony CD head unit a bad habit of not ejecting CD's, so you had to remove the faceplate, and try to grab them with your finger nails to pull them out, resultng in interesting patterns being left on the bottom as you tried to pull them against the mechanism trying to pull it back in.

out of those, about 20% were made with taiyo yuden media (higher quality) back when 8x burners were insanely high tech, and had a label i ran off on a color laser copier affixed (the perks of being in the design biz), which has a plasticky glossy feel to it if it's completely covered by a design. some of those have been in my car upwards of 5 years with NO pinholes.

the rest were done on bulk TDK media after i bought a 40x burner to use at home, with the names written on in sharpie ink. out of those, about 30-40% have pinholes, or entire chunks of the aluminum layer eaten out. some pinholes are located to where no data falls, but others are bad enough to render certain tracks unplayable.

either the weight of other discs in the binder pressing down on them, the heat in the car (FL), or both i suspect is to blame for the loss of areas of the data layer.

all my originals at home are stored vertically in jewel cases or their digipaks, and in cases where they have been left in the car for extended periods, i've had no problems. i've only had ONE CD go bad on me, and it was the newest mogwai CD. i was ripping it to iTunes after getting my new powerbook, and it was pretty warm from ripping for a couple hours. the CD was only reading at 0.1X, and i ejected it to see what was up. the entire bottom was hazy and sticky - no ammount of polishing could get whatever decided to delaminate or whatever off...fortunately it didn't wreck a brand new laptop.