PSP vs DS

[EnemyZero]

Ok guys, whats all your thoughts on these 2? Who do you think will reign supreme? who do you WANT to reign supreme? Im personally goin with the DS and I believe they won't give up there handheld market to sony

[zmweasel]

Ok guys, whats all your thoughts on these 2? Who do you think will reign supreme? who do you WANT to reign supreme? Im personally goin with the DS and I believe they won't give up there handheld market to sony

E3 reaction to the DS was unsurprisingly split almost entirely down fanboi lines. Nintendo cheerleaders (of which there was an embarrassing number at Nintendo's E3 press conference, presumably planted by the company) loved it; everyone else shrugged at it.

I enjoyed my time with the DS, although I was surprised to note that the real gimmick wasn't the dual screens, but the TOUCH-screen, which most of the games and tech demos made heavy use of. I don't know that gamers are ready to accept a PDA stylus as a "controller." Also, I don't see the children who make up the GB's core audience as a stylus-friendly bunch.

The GBA slot on the DS was a cop-out by Nintendo, which had previously claimed the DS was an entirely new and separate gaming experience. It's now quite obvious that if the DS takes off, Nintendo will phase out the GBA and claim that the DS was its next-generation portable all along.

Considering the amount of tech in the DS, a $149 launch price would surprise me, although Nintendo is being extremely aggressive in its last-stand defense of the handheld market. I'm thinking $199 out of the gate, since the first couple million DSes will be snapped up by hardcore gamers who don't care about MSRP.

All this being said, I expect the PSP will grab more market share than the DS, for several reasons: Sony is (as with the PS1 and PS2) marketing to an older crowd than Nintendo, Sony has more third-party support, and the PSP architecture will allow for slightly easier (cheaper) game development. But who the hell knows? I came out of E3 much less skeptical of the DS than I was going in, so we'll see if Nintendo can pull off the upset.

-- Z.

[Kid Ice]

All this being said, I expect the PSP will grab more market share than the DS, for several reasons: Sony is (as with the PS1 and PS2) marketing to an older crowd than Nintendo, Sony has more third-party support, and the PSP architecture will allow for slightly easier (cheaper) game development. But who the hell knows? I came out of E3 much less skeptical of the DS than I was going in, so we'll see if Nintendo can pull off the upset.

-- Z.

I would be surprised if the PSP beat out the DS for a number of reasons, price being the biggest factor. I also think, in spite of Nintendo's denial, that the DS will be perceived by the public as the "new Game Boy", and therefore launch successfully as did the Advance and the SP (especially at a similar price point AND with the backwards compatibility thing going for it). You state that Sony is marketing to an older crowd, which I see as a deterrent, rather than an advantage, to marketing a new handheld.

[sisko]

I think the DS will clearly out shine the PSP.

1) Sideways compatability. We all know the benefits of that
2) Price Factor. At least $50 less at launch? Thats a considerable chunk.
3) PSP has a battery life of not even 3 hours? Please, thats just down right pitiful for a handheld nowadays.

[DEBRO]

I guess I don't understand the purpose of 2 screens. I have a hard enough time focusing on one screen LOL

I need to see it's benefit. I saw Metriod running on it (from G4 I think) and the map is a nice feature but is it neccesary. Is the screen really needed or is it just a new gimic?

[Jibbajaba]

I'm kinda worried about Nintendo's future in the handheld market. I am not at all a Nintendo "Fanboy", as I have chosen playstation over the competition during the last 2 generations, but I have always thought that Nintendo did it best when it came to handhelds. This DS thing seems too gimicky to me. Its going to be bulky as well, and I just dont see the comfort in trying to use a D-pad, buttons, and a touch screen while on the go. As far as I am concerned, the GBA SP is handheld gaming perfection, and I would have thought that they would try to base the next gen handlheld on the SP's basic design, only with amped up graphics. After all this is what was basically done with the GBC and GBA. The SP was a radical design change from those systems, and I think that it has more life in it than 1 generation. I for one am not excited about the DS, but thats OK because I love my SP and I will ocntinue to buy games for it instead. Hell there are plenty of games out right now that I havent gotten to yet.

I have to equally say that I am not all that excited about the PSP. I am really curious to see one in action, but it certainly isnt a "pocket" system. 3 hours of battery time can kiss my ass. I cant even remember the last time I recharged my SP. I am tired of these Swiss Army knife style handhelds that are coming out, like the Ngage or that zodiac thing. Do one thing and do it well. Thats what the GBA SP does. If I want a palmtop computer, ill buy one. Fanboys will suck up both systems, but I really can't see either one hanging in there for the long haul. These bugger bulkier systems are throwbacks to the days of the Lynx and Game Gear, which although portable, did not have the convenience of the smaller GB. I'll take ueber-portability over powerful graphics and superfolous (sp?) features any day.

OK my rant is over. :D

[IGotTheDot]

Without knowing exactly what the PSP will be able to provide (everything shown at E3 was theoretical and not running real time) I will still vote for both.

The PSP will be really cool if Sony can provide what they are promising. The unit was very comfortable to hold and it had a style that was very appealing to me (I am a sucker for cool looking hardware). The graphics power (from what I understand) will be comparable to a Dreamcast so we should see some good-looking games. The only thing I am wondering about is will people kick down the money to buy movies for the thing? I doubt it.

The DS was very cool. The gimmick of the touch screen (almost every game shown supported it) was interesting. The games I played that used the touch screen were novelties that would get old after a few hours. I don't see it being used as a PDA (Nintendo showed a video that suggested that people would use it all day every day for all sorts of things), but I do see Nintendo making enough fun games to justify buying it.

[crashdummycow01]

i kind of want both, but i will more than likely get PSP before DS.

i dont really like the look of the DS.. also having 2 screens seems somewhat pointless and like it was only added to look like something ground breaking.

i really dont see the point in the touchscreen either.. it might be useful in a game or two to have that option over whatever you may have to do if you didnt have it, but it just seems like another thing added to the handheld to boost sales.. i can see a smudge getting on the screen and me forgetting its a touchscreen and i try to wipe it off, and then i screw up everything i've been doing in the game.

right now the only thing i like about the DS is the fact that u can play DS, GBA, GBC, and GB games on it.. and the fact that there will be a good number of cool games coming out on it.

i really like the look of the PSP, especially the widescreen. I wish it had 2 analog sticks instead of one... that kinda limits the games that can be put on the psp.. most of the PS2 games use the analog sticks now so they really wont be able to use any of those.. alot of playstation games did too..

i also like the fact that PSP will play movies... especially with the widescreen :)

i'm stil waiting to see what all games will be on the PSP, and as of right now PSP has my vote.

[zmweasel]

3 hours of battery time can kiss my ass.

The PSP's battery life depends on what you're using it for. Games will (should?) be the least battery-draining, since they'll hit the UMD drive least often, holding the majority of program code in RAM. Movies will be the most battery-draining, since the UMD drive will be constantly streaming data. Of course, we won't know for sure 'til the Japanese early adopters give us the 411.

I don't recall Nintendo giving a battery-life figure for the DS, although I might've just been distracted by the icky pep-rally atmosphere of the press conference, or the creepy new marketing guy.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

I would be surprised if the PSP beat out the DS for a number of reasons, price being the biggest factor.

Neither company has dished out MSRPs yet, but the general consensus is $199 for the DS and $299 for the PSP, at least for their North American launches. Nintendo might go crazy and launch in NA at $149, taking a hardware loss to build a bigger hardware base before the PSP hits.


You state that Sony is marketing to an older crowd, which I see as a deterrent, rather than an advantage, to marketing a new handheld.

Really? Marketing to teens and twenty-somethings has served Sony very well so far. Or do you not think that demographic is as significant in the handheld market as in the console market?

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

I guess I don't understand the purpose of 2 screens. I have a hard enough time focusing on one screen LOL

I need to see it's benefit. I saw Metriod running on it (from G4 I think) and the map is a nice feature but is it neccesary. Is the screen really needed or is it just a new gimic?

The air-hockey tech demo used both screens for gameplay, with the player on the bottom screen and the AI player on the top, and the stylus used to control the, uh, puck-hitting thing. That one rose above mere gimmickry.

Another demo had the player drawing lines of clouds on the bottom screen which scrolled onto the top screen and guided the path of a falling baby Mario. That was neat, too.

And I really enjoyed the 3D Pac-Man in which the touch-screen acted as a Trak-Ball of sorts, although I can anticipate many more players being frustrated than delighted with that particular control scheme.

Honestly, the dual-screen display isn't the big gimmick; it's the touch-screen. My crackpot theory is that Nintendo made the DS's D-pad and button cluster as small as they are to place that much more emphasis on touch-screen interfaces.

-- Z.

[kai123]

Ok guys, whats all your thoughts on these 2? Who do you think will reign supreme? who do you WANT to reign supreme? Im personally goin with the DS and I believe they won't give up there handheld market to sony

E3 reaction to the DS was unsurprisingly split almost entirely down fanboi lines. Nintendo cheerleaders (of which there was an embarrassing number at Nintendo's E3 press conference, presumably planted by the company) loved it; everyone else shrugged at it.

I enjoyed my time with the DS, although I was surprised to note that the real gimmick wasn't the dual screens, but the TOUCH-screen, which most of the games and tech demos made heavy use of. I don't know that gamers are ready to accept a PDA stylus as a "controller." Also, I don't see the children who make up the GB's core audience as a stylus-friendly bunch.

The GBA slot on the DS was a cop-out by Nintendo, which had previously claimed the DS was an entirely new and separate gaming experience. It's now quite obvious that if the DS takes off, Nintendo will phase out the GBA and claim that the DS was its next-generation portable all along.

Considering the amount of tech in the DS, a $149 launch price would surprise me, although Nintendo is being extremely aggressive in its last-stand defense of the handheld market. I'm thinking $199 out of the gate, since the first couple million DSes will be snapped up by hardcore gamers who don't care about MSRP.

All this being said, I expect the PSP will grab more market share than the DS, for several reasons: Sony is (as with the PS1 and PS2) marketing to an older crowd than Nintendo, Sony has more third-party support, and the PSP architecture will allow for slightly easier (cheaper) game development. But who the hell knows? I came out of E3 much less skeptical of the DS than I was going in, so we'll see if Nintendo can pull off the upset.

-- Z.

More developers huh? http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/05/13/news_6098199.html

Why do you assume that the psp is going to load an entire game into memory? The ps2 has to stop to load all the time depending on the game. Besides wouldn't a game be just as cpu intensive as a movie would? Has sony said anything about how they will handle movie releases? I still have too many questions about the psp to crap my pants about it...yet ;)

[link1110]

Really? Marketing to teens and twenty-somethings has served Sony very well so far. Or do you not think that demographic is as significant in the handheld market as in the console market?


I don't worry too much, but my cousin sees being seen playing aportable system as "childish," so there may be more to marketing to children than everyone thinks. If adults like the games (I'm not too sure about ANY of those next-gen portable games I saw there Card game Metal Gear, 4 player only Mario) then the adults will buy and enjoy them too. I buy almost every Game Boy Advance game that comes out and am not embarrased to be seen playing it, but many adults are.

[zmweasel]

More developers huh? http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/05/13/news_6098199.html

Interesting! Of course, devkits don't equal games; there are plenty of third-party companies with dust-gathering GameCube devkits.

I'm curious how Sony's 99-developer figure was derived.


Why do you assume that the psp is going to load an entire game into memory? The ps2 has to stop to load all the time depending on the game. Besides wouldn't a game be just as cpu intensive as a movie would? Has sony said anything about how they will handle movie releases? I still have too many questions about the psp to crap my pants about it...yet ;)

I'm not assuming the PSP is going to load entire games into memory at once, a la Ridge Racer. I'm assuming that developers will do whatever they can to minimize UMD loading and maximize battery life.

Your comparison to the PS2 is irrevelant, since battery life obviously isn't a concern for that console.

A movie isn't CPU-intensive at all, but it's UMD-intensive, since it's constantly streaming data from the disk. Playing MP3s on the PSP won't be as battery-draining, since it won't need the screen or the UMD, just the Memory Stick slot.

Sony has stated its plans to release music and movies on the UMD format, although without naming specific properties. On a related note, the PSP will have regional lockout similar to DVDs.

-- Z.

[Nature Boy]

I'm assuming that developers will do whatever they can to minimize UMD loading and maximize battery life.

Interesting idea. Do the developers really care about battery life though?

I will admit I know nothing about how accessing data in any of the formats (cart/UMD/whatever DS uses) affects power. But you've got me wondering if a developer is looking at battery power as they're building their game.

And, to that same line of thinking, how much do they look at minimizing load times? There are some *atrocious* load times for the consoles out there - and I don't believe they couldn't be dealt with (although I do believe the cost to do so would cut into their profits).

Thoughts?

[Jasoco]

As I've said before, the DS will dominate. For all the reasons already mentioned.

But I eagerly await both of them. Just to see which ones get bought the most.

I wonder, though. From the many pics of the DS, it appears there will be color choices. But apparently only on the screen covers. I wonder how they will really turn out, especially after how the two GBA (Non-SP) prototypes had cool color choices, but when it actually got released, all we got was White, Purple and clear Purple. Then later clear Pink. What happened to the cool Aqua blue and the Orange? That really got me. I just wish there was a real final official date.

[zmweasel]

Interesting idea. Do the developers really care about battery life though?

Very good question. Some developers might "address" the issue with a robust save-anywhere system, so they can hit the UMD whenever they want without worry. Some developers might be more careful with their code structure. It's even possible, but unlikely, that Sony will establish technical guidelines that require developers to meet certain battery-life requirements: if your game hits the UMD too often and kills the battery too quickly, it won't be approved. That would be damn difficult to test for, however.

Sony didn't seem too concerned about the battery-life issue at its E3 press conference, but you could tell the crowd wasn't thrilled by the comparisons to portable MP3 and DVD players.


And, to that same line of thinking, how much do they look at minimizing load times? There are some *atrocious* load times for the consoles out there - and I don't believe they couldn't be dealt with (although I do believe the cost to do so would cut into their profits).

Data optimzation is usually one of the last steps in the development process, unfortunately. Some developers are simply concerned with stuffing all of the game data onto a DVD, never mind load times. Some developers have been spoiled by PC hard-disc access times, and so don't bother to optimize. And a precious few developers realize the importance of keeping the flow-interrupting access to a minimum. Game Developer's "Postmortem" on Jak & Daxter talked a lot about Naughty Dog's efforts to eliminate loading pauses via clever game and level design.

-- Z.

[petewhitley]

I wasn't at E3, so I have zero hands-on time with either system. I've watched just about every video I could find on the 'net for both systems, that's as close as I've got to either. As a lifelong game fan, who has played just about every system (and owned just about every system), I'm far more excited for the PSP. Brilliant screen, seems very ergonomic, and "adult" games that are going to be *close* to the same quality I play at home on my TV (for years I've ached for handheld games that can more closely resemble the home experience). Watching the PSP videos, I was genuinely excited at the prospect of sitting on the train using this thing.
Honestly, my two cents are that the DS is going to a BIG disappointment for Nintendo, and not only because of increasing competition. Nintendo is becoming far too gimmicky for my tastes, E-readers, GameBoy Players, GC-GBA linking, Dual Screens, Virtual Boys, etc... They remind me of Sega in the Genesis, 32x, Sega CD days. Who's buying all this crap? Just sell me the system and some cool games. Touch-screens exist already (see Tapwave Zodiac), and not alot has come out of them. While the Big N is surely gonna come up with some cool apps, how are they (and more importantly, any 3rd party developer) gonna keep coming up with novel uses for a touch screen? Prove me wrong Nintendo, please, cause I'd like for you revolutionize games again. But I don't see it happening. The PSP uses 1.8 GB discs, the DS uses 128 megabyte carts. No Gran Turismo killers on the DS, that's for sure. I love Nintendo, but I want them to get with the times and start building a future. My GC gathers dust because I don't have 3 friends close by ALL with GBAs to play Zelda: Four Swords with.
Sorry, I'm just so disappointed in Nintendo these days, and I'm concerned that this board in particular is looking through some pretty rose-colored glasses in regards to their fiscal future. It reminds me of the last days of Dreamcast, where all these "hardcore" fans proclaimed it to be the "best" system. Hey, it was cool. But most everyone I knew had a helluva lot more fun with their PlayStations. We're always saying "it's about the games," but I worry that it's all to often about rooting for the underdog, irregardless of the games. <End rant>

[Kid Ice]

You state that Sony is marketing to an older crowd, which I see as a deterrent, rather than an advantage, to marketing a new handheld.

Really? Marketing to teens and twenty-somethings has served Sony very well so far. Or do you not think that demographic is as significant in the handheld market as in the console market?

-- Z.

Right. I see the handheld market as a kid-driven thing, which is one of the reasons I think Nintendo has held off (read: crushed) competitors like the Nomad and NeoPocket.

[Ed Oscuro]

one of the reasons I think Nintendo has held off (read: crushed) competitors like the Nomad and NeoPocket.
When did Nintendo crush the Nomad? The Nomad was a handheld Genesis, and was marketed as a specialized item. I can't comment if they sold as many as they wanted to, but pretty much everybody who really wants to have one will get one these days.

Back on topic...I also saw an embarrasing amount of fanboi foolery on various forums, but the majority of intelligent people seemed to really "get" the DS and were in awe of its capabilities. I'm sure the Bluetooth and WAN capabilities are nothing at all to the jet set, but add on voice recognition (wondering how good it'll be and training times?) and at that price you've almost got a product all by itself.

Graphics? I was impressed by Death Jr. until I saw it in action - this stuff doesn't seem much more advanced to me than a generic PSOne (grr, I really burns me to write that, I want to write "PSX") game. Metroid Prime: Hunters, on the other hand, looks alright, but I couldn't make out any details in the video and it looked to me like our player's Samus ran through another Samus, ala Corridor 7...I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have been just a camera flying around.

While the new Metroid's use of one screen for map and menu isn't that startling or exciting, the touchscreen and other capabilities do get me excited. I think a lot of people are happy with Macromedia's Shockmachine and their Flash games - Nintendo's apparently looking to get a little bit of that market back.

I'd like to make a crack about the game journalists who weren't carried away (though I also had the suspicion some of the folks in the crowd were planted :P) being wannabe movie reviewers and that they've forgotten what games are about, but I really shouldn't. Sony's approach is just as valid as Nintendo's and I have always viewed games in the neo-traditional fashion, as things you play in front of a TV or at the arcades. However, I think Nintendo's done well to try to get a grip on this new segment. I think they've got a chance to draw female gamers back, get the attention of the aforementioned "twitch/non-epic/easy-to-pick-up and understand" group that just wants some entertainment in the dead minutes that's more diverse than the GBA lineup (that they know of, anyhow...but you really have to admit the GBA is dominated by RPGs and 2D action games, with a couple neat titles and ports here and there).

[Kid Ice]

one of the reasons I think Nintendo has held off (read: crushed) competitors like the Nomad and NeoPocket.
When did Nintendo crush the Nomad? The Nomad was a handheld Genesis, and was marketed as a specialized item. I can't comment if they sold as many as they wanted to, but pretty much everybody who really wants to have one will get one these days.


I'm under the impression that the Nomad was a dud in the marketplace. Being the Nomad, a handheld videogame (specialty item?) was a dud while GameBoys continued to sell like hotcakes, I'd say the Nomad was crushed.

Unless I'm wrong about the Nomad being a dud sales-wise. (BTW did I mention the Nomad, coming so late in the Genesis life cycle, was a really stupid idea too?) My memory on this is foggy so it's possible it wasn't a total wash.

I'm not sure what you meant by the "these days" comment at the end there, but I feel it's safe to say "these days" are irrelevant where the Nomad is concerned.

[dreamcaster]

Whilst both systems are great, the DS has piqued my interest more than the PSP. I'll be buying both, but thanks to a low price-point, I'll be picking up a DS first (on launch day).

With the PSP, Sony hasn't announced battery life or a firm price-point. Not to mention the idea that it's going to have region lockouts is a bit of a disappointment.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm under the impression that the Nomad was a dud in the marketplace. Being the Nomad, a handheld videogame (specialty item?) was a dud while GameBoys continued to sell like hotcakes, I'd say the Nomad was crushed.

Unless I'm wrong about the Nomad being a dud sales-wise.
Well, you're the one making the statement...would've been nice if you could've given us a bit more information.


(BTW did I mention the Nomad, coming so late in the Genesis life cycle, was a really stupid idea too?)
You don't seem to understand what the Nomad was all about. The concept is totally different - The Nomad was a relatively high-priced game system with a color screen that played high quality games, whereas the Game Boy was (especially in its original incarnation) a cheapo system. The Nomad was not intended to compete with the Game Boy - it was a system to let hardcore Genesis fans enjoy their games away from home. They could sell them at a much higher price since they only wanted to sell them to a select few - the success or failure of the overall system (the Genesis) didn't hinge on the price of the console, so they could elect to create an "elite" version of the system.

This is exactly the same rationale that led to the multitude of PC-Engine systems (from the Shuttle to the all-in-one/Apple-like form factor version that came in a monitor) and, come to think of it, the wide variety of hardware Sega always has produced. Licensing the hardware out (Victor, IBM) and producing tons of variations apparently had its peak during the Mega Drive days (I'm not counting these silly shell variations, though the "former arcade hardware" version of the Dreamcast is pretty nifty) and the NA-only Nomad seems to be just another outgrowth of that time.


I'm not sure what you meant by the "these days" comment at the end there, but I feel it's safe to say "these days" are irrelevant where the Nomad is concerned.
It's completely relevant, because we can look at how many Nomad systems are out there and get an idea how many sold. A direct comparison to how many Game Boys are being sold would be misleading, though; there hasn't been an upgraded version of the unit (i.e. dumping bricks on eBay) and even if only a few thousand sold (it's more than this, certainly), that might be 100% of the number produced.

I for one would appreciate getting some more accurate information on the system; an idea how quickly prices on the units dropped would be a great help.

[le geek]

I'm personally more interested in the DS, the new gameplay features intrigue me. Nintendo "gets" the handheld market, but what will the price point be and are the new features too gimmicky?

I'm not convinced yet that Sony "gets" handheld gaming. It's a different market since people want to play games for shorter periods of time. Gran Turismo can work (do a race or two then save), but I'm not sure on the other stuff... Plus is looks fragile, too expensive, and I question battery life.

But Sony could clean house since it looks purdy and says Sony on it.

I give it even money...

[petewhitley]

You don't seem to understand what the Nomad was all about. The concept is totally different - The Nomad was a relatively high-priced game system with a color screen that played high quality games, whereas the Game Boy was (especially in its original incarnation) a cheapo system. The Nomad was not intended to compete with the Game Boy - it was a system to let hardcore Genesis fans enjoy their games away from home. They could sell them at a much higher price since they only wanted to sell them to a select few - the success or failure of the overall system (the Genesis) didn't hinge on the price of the console, so they could elect to create an "elite" version of the system.

I like this idea, but has Sega gone on the record saying this was their intention? If selling the Nomad to a select few people was their business model, it's no wonder Sega went out of the hardware market...

[lendelin]

I'm glad to see that the first hype about the DS is over already, and the assessment of its success is more realistic. Always take two step backs from hyped statements of hardware manufactureres when new systems are presented.

I said it since the first reports about of E3 came out about the DS:

1) The second touch-screen of the DS is limited when it comes to gameplay; more importantly, it's not attarctive for a wider audience, in particular casual gamers.

2) The second screen makes game development for the system more difficult, in particular for third party developers which want to produce for both systems. Games which focus in their design on the second screen will be very few and from N only.

3) The success of the DS is frighteningly dependent on the very good use of the second screen, mere great one-screen games for the system aren't enough; the second screen will be easily be seen as obsolete which offers minor, gimmicky gameplay elements and will de-evaluate the system.

The PSP has it much easier to succeed than the DS. Simplicity is key, not a second screen which allows to be used for text messages. The PSP has a nice screen, is from hardware specs more powerful, and the already exclusive titles for the PS2 will be big attarctions for the system. Sony delivers a mini-PS2 which targets adults as well as kids. We'll see a similar development to 1996 with the PS1: Sony tries to broaden the demographics of gamers, this time for the handheld market.

The biggest competitor of the PSP is it's own price tag; this competitor is flexible and under control of Sony itself. The biggest competitor of the DS is the PSP and the second screen, two obstacles which can't be handled in a flexible way.

[petewhitley]

lendelin always says what I wanna say, but can't put into words. You the man.

[Nature Boy]

1) The second touch-screen of the DS is limited when it comes to gameplay; more importantly, it's not attarctive for a wider audience, in particular casual gamers.

Out of curiousity, have you or any of the other touch screen critics ever played games on a PPC or Palm? I played a Missile Command rip off called ICBM and let me tell you - that type of game is *perfect* for a touch screen.

And as an RPG fan, I look forward to seeing my inventory up there and just pointing at what I want, instead of cycling through countless menus by pressing 'down'

[zmweasel]

Out of curiousity, have you or any of the other touch screen critics ever played games on a PPC or Palm? I played a Missile Command rip off called ICBM and let me tell you - that type of game is *perfect* for a touch screen.

Yep, I've played lots of Palm/PPC games, although I've found that the touch-screen is best suited to word/puzzle games as opposed to action games.

I'm not criticizing the touch-screen itself; I just don't know if it's well-suited to Nintendo's preteen audience. For example, I saw more than a few people at E3 trying to touch the screen with greasy fingertips instead of the stylus, which sent the booth babes into seizures.


And as an RPG fan, I look forward to seeing my inventory up there and just pointing at what I want, instead of cycling through countless menus by pressing 'down'

The lower of the two screens is the touch-screen, so you'd be looking "down there" for your inventory. :)

-- Z.

[Kid Ice]

I'm under the impression that the Nomad was a dud in the marketplace. Being the Nomad, a handheld videogame (specialty item?) was a dud while GameBoys continued to sell like hotcakes, I'd say the Nomad was crushed.

Unless I'm wrong about the Nomad being a dud sales-wise.
Well, you're the one making the statement...would've been nice if you could've given us a bit more information.


(BTW did I mention the Nomad, coming so late in the Genesis life cycle, was a really stupid idea too?)
You don't seem to understand what the Nomad was all about. The concept is totally different - The Nomad was a relatively high-priced game system with a color screen that played high quality games, whereas the Game Boy was (especially in its original incarnation) a cheapo system. The Nomad was not intended to compete with the Game Boy - it was a system to let hardcore Genesis fans enjoy their games away from home. They could sell them at a much higher price since they only wanted to sell them to a select few - the success or failure of the overall system (the Genesis) didn't hinge on the price of the console, so they could elect to create an "elite" version of the system.

This is exactly the same rationale that led to the multitude of PC-Engine systems (from the Shuttle to the all-in-one/Apple-like form factor version that came in a monitor) and, come to think of it, the wide variety of hardware Sega always has produced. Licensing the hardware out (Victor, IBM) and producing tons of variations apparently had its peak during the Mega Drive days (I'm not counting these silly shell variations, though the "former arcade hardware" version of the Dreamcast is pretty nifty) and the NA-only Nomad seems to be just another outgrowth of that time.


I'm not sure what you meant by the "these days" comment at the end there, but I feel it's safe to say "these days" are irrelevant where the Nomad is concerned.
It's completely relevant, because we can look at how many Nomad systems are out there and get an idea how many sold. A direct comparison to how many Game Boys are being sold would be misleading, though; there hasn't been an upgraded version of the unit (i.e. dumping bricks on eBay) and even if only a few thousand sold (it's more than this, certainly), that might be 100% of the number produced.

I for one would appreciate getting some more accurate information on the system; an idea how quickly prices on the units dropped would be a great help.

I just don't get what you're saying here. First of all I feel very confident saying the Nomad was a failure. I'm not going to waste time looking for data to back this up because I think this is a very common perception. Secondly, I totally disagree with this idea you have that the Nomad was only meant to be sold to a "select few". And I still don't get this thing about "whoever wants one can get one" comment had to do with anything, unless you are implying that the Nomad was so popular at one point that is now widely available to anyone who would like one (which to me just implies that no one wants it).

[SoulBlazer]

I also think Nintendo (and Sony) will use what they got from E3 to make final decisions in what they do with their systems. Nothing is set in stone yet, guys. :)

[zmweasel]

I also think Nintendo (and Sony) will use what they got from E3 to make final decisions in what they do with their systems. Nothing is set in stone yet, guys. :)

Well, the forms of the DS and PSP *are* set in stone at this point. It's much too late in the game to redesign any external aspect of the hardware. And while the internal components of the PSP may yet change, the DS's internals are finalized.

-- Z.

[Ed Oscuro]

I just don't get what you're saying here. First of all I feel very confident saying the Nomad was a failure.
That's not true - you said a number of times you weren't sure. I don't have any actual information either, but whenever I have hazy recollections I try to make it clear and I certainly don't try to back up arguments I've made without proof.


I'm not going to waste time looking for data to back this up because I think this is a very common perception.
It's bad enough when "scientists" look for data that backs up their preconcieved notions (aka statistics), but nobody's silly enough to say that I should believe them just because they say it was so. You've got your preconception and I say you could very well be wrong - Sega didn't make all the varieties of MD hardware to lose money, after all, and there's probably a good reason they kept developing them.


Secondly, I totally disagree with this idea you have that the Nomad was only meant to be sold to a "select few".
"Few" overall - of course not. Few compared to the Game Boy or - just as importantly - the Game Gear - absolutely. I don't know why you'd fail to see these terms as "in relation to" each other, but that's not my problem.


And I still don't get this thing about "whoever wants one can get one" comment had to do with anything,
I'm going to cut that comment right there because your explanation was far off base.

The Nomad has remained a relatively high-priced item, JUST AS the TurboExpress has. While the TG-16 failed, the PC-Engine did not, and nobody says the Japanese version of the Turbo Express failed. The failure or success of the overall platform - be it Mega Drive or Genesis, PC-Engine or TG-16 - does not rely on sales of an expensive handheld variant. The Mega Jet may or may not have sold really well, but again, companies target these unusual products (hardware variants) towards what they think the reception in the overall market will be. With the Nomad it's clear that Sega said "hey there's a market for a handheld Genesis" and they filled that market as best they could.

What's more (and further clouding the issue) is the fact that the Turbo Express was simply imported with little modification right out of Japan. The Nomad wasn't based completely off any existing product in Japan. Both the TurboExpress and the Nomad were given limited runs and I've read the Nomad was only found in certain stores (though that's just one source); the Game Boy could be found anywhere video games or toys were sold.

I make a big issue of this because it seems you say the Nomad or TurboExpress failed in comparison to the Game Gear, which is acknowledged as a failure in comparison to the Game Boy. The Game Gear was trying to muscle into the Game Boy's market; the Nomad was not. The same standards don't apply.

And yes, anybody who wants one badly enough that they'll trade in their hard earned chedda for it can get one. That's the way it is with anything on eBay, but the Nomad hasn't fallen in price (not by much, anyway, certainly less than the Genesis or Game Boy). It always was expensive compared to other handhelds, and it will continue to be expensive. The only other popular handheld out there that resells as high as the Nomad is the Turbo Express...surprised? I'm not. They're the same sort of product. It will always be an item for a relatively small number of people, and Sega never viewed it as the handheld descendant of the Genesis line. It's just there, sitting off on a short branch of the Genesis family tree.

I don't mean any disrespect, but just "being there back in the day" isn't the same as having information that can end this debate, and that's through no fault of your own. A lot of stuff has been forgotten and that's life, but that's when you just say "you know, I'd love to help you with that but I don't remember for sure." I'd just appreciate it if you didn't try to pass off hazy recollections as gospel, because that helps nobody.

Having visited a store and seen the Nomad once - never comparing price over time or having talked with store folks about how it sold - is not going to give you the inside picture on how well the system is selling. I don't care if you're John Maynard Keynes himself - without knowing what targets the company has set for the performance of the system, I have to be skeptical of your one-time view. We're here to sort out the history of gaming, and if people can be very critical of what we say on today's systems, we can apply the same standards to a "historical" debate, is this not true?

[petewhitley]

I make a big issue of this because it seems you say the Nomad or TurboExpress failed in comparison to the Game Gear, which is acknowledged as a failure in comparison to the Game Boy. The Game Gear was trying to muscle into the Game Boy's market; the Nomad was not. The same standards don't apply...I don't mean any disrespect, but just "being there back in the day" isn't the same as having information that can end this debate, and that's through no fault of your own. A lot of stuff has been forgotten and that's life, but that's when you just say "you know, I'd love to help you with that but I don't remember for sure."

"Back in the day," I "remember for sure" the Nomad's marketing and presence, and I do agree it was in DIRECT competition to the Game Boy.


I'd just appreciate it if you didn't try to pass off hazy recollections as gospel, because that helps nobody.

But at least there IS recollection of the Nomad marketed against the Game Boy. As well as the Turbo Express. I like the idea Ed; that these systems were marketed towards the "hardcore" fan, but the more I think about it, I clearly know that this was not the case. Your post is the first time I've ever heard of anyone recollecting about how the Nomad was marketed to a different market segment than the Game Boy, and until someone brings up some facts to show that it was, I'm sticking to the collective recollections of gamers who were there (not to say you weren't, I assume you were too!).

[Aussie2B]

On a related note, the PSP will have regional lockout similar to DVDs.

I'm not surprised that Sony would pull a stupid, backwards-ass, egotistical thing like this. Who do they really think they are? Regional lockout on a PORTABLE system? The freakin' thing is DESIGNED to travel. Ideally, people will buy them and take them all over the world - on vacation, on business trips, on flights, etc. And what if you decide you want to pick up another game during your trip? What if you forgot to pack the games? Nope, sorry, Sony says you can't. Nintendo has never had a problem with it, but Sony wants to control what you can do with the product you own.

I didn't have any interest in the PSP to begin with, but now I have even less, if that's possible. :/ DS is my choice.

[Jasoco]

I never thought of that. Well, that just secures my belief that the PSP really will fail. What a dumbass thing to do. Heh. I don't think they even know what they're doing. They just want to try and see if they can knock Nintendo out. Well, once these come out, I have even MORE reasons to talk customers into going the other way.

Thank you, Sony! You make it so easy. I look forward to picking one up when it hits $50.

[zmweasel]

And what if you decide you want to pick up another game during your trip? What if you forgot to pack the games? Nope, sorry, Sony says you can't. Nintendo has never had a problem with it, but Sony wants to control what you can do with the product you own.

It's not like regional lockout is new to the videogame industry; Nintendo's own home systems have long had it. It's just new to the portable market.

Because the PSP is more than just a game system, Sony is essentially required to use DVD-style regional coding. It's not because Sony is evil; it's because copyright holders want their intellectual properties protected.

And why would you be angry at Sony if you "forgot to pack the games" for your PSP? I'm baffled why you'd be angry at anyone but yourself for spacing out. I don't curse Nintendo when I forget to put Car Battler Joe into my carrying case.

-- Z.

[Jasoco]

That's completely different. At least with the GBA, you can buy a game in Japan or Europe and put it in your GBA. With the PSP, nope. Guess you can't play that new unreleased in the US game. Damn. "Why did I ever buy this damn PSP?"

Face it.

[Kid Ice]

I just don't get what you're saying here. First of all I feel very confident saying the Nomad was a failure.
That's not true - you said a number of times you weren't sure. I don't have any actual information either, but whenever I have hazy recollections I try to make it clear and I certainly don't try to back up arguments I've made without proof.

You're right, I made that transition from being "not sure" to "very confident" pretty quickly. Still, I don't feel it's necessary to "prove" that the Nomad was a failure, at least in relation to success of the Game Boy. And it's not exactly ancient history.




The Nomad has remained a relatively high-priced item, JUST AS the TurboExpress has.

Once again I don't see what this has to do with the Game Boy. A CommaVid game that couldn't sell for $5 in 1984 is now worth thousands. So does that make it any more or less successful in 1984?




What's more (and further clouding the issue) is the fact that the Turbo Express was simply imported with little modification right out of Japan. The Nomad wasn't based completely off any existing product in Japan. Both the TurboExpress and the Nomad were given limited runs and I've read the Nomad was only found in certain stores (though that's just one source); the Game Boy could be found anywhere video games or toys were sold.

I'm not sure how the Turbo Express came into this, but I can accept the argument that it was a niche item that wasn't meant to compete with the Game Boy. The Nomad was a mass produced, mass market item.


I make a big issue of this because it seems you say the Nomad or TurboExpress failed in comparison to the Game Gear, which is acknowledged as a failure in comparison to the Game Boy. The Game Gear was trying to muscle into the Game Boy's market; the Nomad was not. The same standards don't apply.

Then you can not make a big issue of it because I never mentioned the Game Gear or the Turbo Express.


And yes, anybody who wants one badly enough that they'll trade in their hard earned chedda for it can get one. That's the way it is with anything on eBay, but the Nomad hasn't fallen in price (not by much, anyway, certainly less than the Genesis or Game Boy). It always was expensive compared to other handhelds, and it will continue to be expensive. The only other popular handheld out there that resells as high as the Nomad is the Turbo Express...surprised? I'm not. They're the same sort of product. It will always be an item for a relatively small number of people, and Sega never viewed it as the handheld descendant of the Genesis line. It's just there, sitting off on a short branch of the Genesis family tree.

I think my original statement that you took exception to was that Game Boy crushed the Nomad. Again, the value of a Nomad today is totally insignificant to that statement.


I don't mean any disrespect, but just "being there back in the day" isn't the same as having information that can end this debate, and that's through no fault of your own. A lot of stuff has been forgotten and that's life, but that's when you just say "you know, I'd love to help you with that but I don't remember for sure." I'd just appreciate it if you didn't try to pass off hazy recollections as gospel, because that helps nobody.

No disrespect taken or given. Again, I don't consider less than 10 years ago "back in the day". I would confidently say the Virtual Boy was a total failure in the marketplace without digging up a bunch of sales figures. And I don't think anyone is looking for "gospel" at the altar of Kid Ice. :)


Having visited a store and seen the Nomad once - never comparing price over time or having talked with store folks about how it sold - is not going to give you the inside picture on how well the system is selling. I don't care if you're John Maynard Keynes himself - without knowing what targets the company has set for the performance of the system, I have to be skeptical of your one-time view. We're here to sort out the history of gaming, and if people can be very critical of what we say on today's systems, we can apply the same standards to a "historical" debate, is this not true?

Sure. But I don't demand hard evidence in every single case. If there's a system out there, and no one I know has one, and most of the people I know have never even heard of it, and the price is drastically reduced within months of its appearance, I consider it a failure. Let me tell you how many times I've been in public I have seen kids playing Game Boys, Game Boy Colors, and Game Boy Advances; at least a couple hundred. I have NEVER seen anyone in public playing a different handheld; no Nomad, no Turbo Express, Neo Pocket, Game Gear, Game.com, etc. So I don't need sales figures to tell me how much Nintendo has dominated this market for 15 years. I remember a few years back showing a fifth grade class (half of whom owned Game Boys and brought them to school) a Nomad and hearing them say "What the heck is that thing?"

[zmweasel]

I never thought of that. Well, that just secures my belief that the PSP really will fail. What a dumbass thing to do. Heh. I don't think they even know what they're doing.

The studios and publishers who plan to support the PSP would disagree with regional lockout as a "dumbass thing to do."


Well, once these come out, I have even MORE reasons to talk customers into going the other way.

Shouldn't you perhaps give customers an unbiased list of the pros and cons of each system instead of going into Nintendo-fanboi mode?

-- Z.

[Aussie2B]

Home consoles are an entirely different ballpark. It's expected that people will be buying games from their own region. Those who don't are a tiny minority of importers, which are an entirely different gamer and consumer than your typical Joe Schmoe on a vacation.

As for the "forgetting the games" thing, that's just an example. I'm an importer, so that's why I care about regional lockout. I accept, understand, and tolerate regional lockout for home consoles, but one of my favorite features of all of Nintendo's handhelds was the lack of any lockout.

Really, when you look at it from a business standpoint it just doesn't make sense. Why limit what your consumers can buy? If someone forgets to bring their games, that's a great opportunity for the company. The consumer will very likely go out and buy at least one new game (if not more) for their handheld. Or maybe they'll see a game that never came out in their region. They pick it up, they enjoy it, and both regions get money from the person.

[Jasoco]

Do we REALLY want to have to buy GameSharks for our PSP's just to let us play imported PSP games? It IS a dumbass thing to do. Sony does NOT know what they are doint, plain and simple and THAT is why it will fail miserably and THAT is why I will steer people towards the one system that I know will be here at least a while. And for your info, I do not play favorites EVER when selling systems to new buyers. I let them decide, and rest assured I will do the same with the portables. But I know my customers, and I know they will choose the DS. And if they come in with their hearts set on buying a PSP, I will not talk them out of it. I'm not as evil as you think I am.

Well, maybe just a little.

Dumbass idea. Mark my words.

[zmweasel]

Home consoles are an entirely different ballpark. It's expected that people will be buying games from their own region. Those who don't are a tiny minority of importers, which are an entirely different gamer and consumer than your typical Joe Schmoe on a vacation.

I don't know what social circles you swing in, but I don't have a lot of hardcore-gamer friends who take regular trips to Japan and/or Europe, where regional lockout would be an issue.


Really, when you look at it from a business standpoint it just doesn't make sense. Why limit what your consumers can buy? If someone forgets to bring their games, that's a great opportunity for the company. The consumer will very likely go out and buy at least one new game (if not more) for their handheld. Or maybe they'll see a game that never came out in their region. They pick it up, they enjoy it, and both regions get money from the person.

From a business standpoint, it makes PERFECT sense. Quoting an educational FAQ: "As the games industry grew, it became inevitable that manufacturers would develop some sort of mechanism whereby they could control these various markets to reduce the threat of counterfeiting, misallocation of revenue, and to protect intellectual property rights. Territorial lockout seemed to be the best option for achieving this objective."

I play import games too, and lockout indeed sucks, but I understand why it's done, and I don't begrudge companies for doing it. Then again, I've worked in the game industry, so I tend to see most game-related issues from both sides.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

Do we REALLY want to have to buy GameSharks for our PSP's just to let us play imported PSP games? It IS a dumbass thing to do.

I agree that it's a pain in the ass for gamers, but not for videogame publishers.


Sony does NOT know what they are doint, plain and simple and THAT is why it will fail miserably and THAT is why I will steer people towards the one system that I know will be here at least a while.

Sony has had some mind-blowing success for a company that doesn't know what it's doing. I don't see how you can possibly discount their overwhelming success in the console space, and their decades of experience with portable electronics.


And for your info, I do not play favorites EVER when selling systems to new buyers. I let them decide, and rest assured I will do the same with the portables. But I know my customers, and I know they will choose the DS. And if they come in with their hearts set on buying a PSP, I will not talk them out of it. I'm not as evil as you think I am.

I don't think you're evil by any means, but you're surely overestimating the importance of regional lockout if you think it's going to have anything but an insignificantly small effect on the DS/PSP battle.

-- Z.

[Aussie2B]

I don't know what social circles you swing in, but I don't have a lot of hardcore-gamer friends who take regular trips to Japan and/or Europe, where regional lockout would be an issue.

If it's DVD-style regional lockout as you said before, wouldn't that suggest that there will be a lot more regions than the typical Asia/PAL/US lockout we're familiar with in consoles? How many different regions are there for DVDs? I'm pretty sure there are over 5 at least. Before we get into specific regions, we need to know just how the regional lockout is broken up.


From a business standpoint, it makes PERFECT sense. Quoting an educational FAQ: "As the games industry grew, it became inevitable that manufacturers would develop some sort of mechanism whereby they could control these various markets to reduce the threat of counterfeiting, misallocation of revenue, and to protect intellectual property rights. Territorial lockout seemed to be the best option for achieving this objective."

I know all that, of course. However, answer this: then why would Nintendo never have regional lockout on their handhelds? They do it for the home consoles, so obviously there are different things to consider with handhelds. If Nintendo can do it (and still make ENORMOUS profits in every single region), why can't Sony?

[Jasoco]

Exactly.

Nintendo left it out for a reason.

[zmweasel]

If it's DVD-style regional lockout as you said before, wouldn't that suggest that there will be a lot more regions than the typical Asia/PAL/US lockout we're familiar with in consoles? How many different regions are there for DVDs? I'm pretty sure there are over 5 at least. Before we get into specific regions, we need to know just how the regional lockout is broken up.

DVD players have six regions. Here's a map:

http://www.laserrot.com/info/lrinfo/dvdmap.html

It'll be interesting to see if the PSP follows the DVD region coding, or splits Japan and Europe (which are both Region 2 in DVD World) into separate regions.


I know all that, of course. However, answer this: then why would Nintendo never have regional lockout on their handhelds? They do it for the home consoles, so obviously there are different things to consider with handhelds. If Nintendo can do it (and still make ENORMOUS profits in every single region), why can't Sony?

Because the PSP ain't just games; it's the UMD format that Sony plans to support with movies, music, etc. The IP owners in these industries require a territorial lockout before they'll support UMD.

So why aren't you asking why Nintendo invented regional lockout to begin with?

-- Z.

[ubersaurus]

I'm gonna call Nintendo on this one. I don't think handhelds have really hit the 18+ market yet. I remember playing my SP at college a few weeks back, and hearing some sniggering about the guy playin the game boy. It didn't matter that I was playin Metroid, or indeed, it wouldn't have mattered what I was playing-I was just the guy playing with the kid's toy. The PSP will have it's work cut out for it to appeal to those people. If I recall, that was the target market for the game gear too (certainly pushing it similarly to the Genesis in the ads), and it never caught on like the inferior game boy.

Nintendo's backwards compatibility is a factor too...don't forget, that was a major selling point for the PS2 when it launched, as it was for the GBA. That will be a factor, and I expect to see units pushed just on that.

Battery life will be a major factor, but I think by this point, Nintendo knows how important battery life is...it's just a matter of whether or not Sony realizing this as well. Being able to watch movies doesn't do a hell lot of good when you have to change the battery after every watching, and though I expect battery life to be better for the game side, if it's not at least about 10 hours, it's gonna be a hard sell. The screen and graphics capabilities are nice...but again, with no power, there's no point.

[Aussie2B]

Well, that's a problem right there. I don't care about music and movies on a handheld. If I want music, I can buy a MUCH cheaper portable CD player (or if I wanted to go all out, I would just get a mp3 player or a minidisc player). As for movies, who wants to watch a movie on such a tiny screen? Laptops are much better for movies on the go, but I personally don't have the time to sit watching a two hour movie when out of the house anyway (and inside the house I'd obviously use my TV). I also gotta wonder, who wants to hold a handheld for the length of a movie? o_O Imagine how tired your hands and arms would get holding them still for that long. Or does Sony expect us to set it down and watch the movie while staring down? Then you got pain in your neck.

Anyway, since I'd buy the PSP purely for games (and many, many others would too), I hold it to the same standards of all other game handhelds. When every other one I can think of has no regional lockout, I'm going to consider that a negative aspect of the PSP. And since this topic is about what all of us, as individuals, think of the handhelds, that's just me stating my opinons. :)

[zmweasel]

I'm gonna call Nintendo on this one. I don't think handhelds have really hit the 18+ market yet. I remember playing my SP at college a few weeks back, and hearing some sniggering about the guy playin the game boy. It didn't matter that I was playin Metroid, or indeed, it wouldn't have mattered what I was playing-I was just the guy playing with the kid's toy. The PSP will have it's work cut out for it to appeal to those people.

That's the thrust of Sony's marketing campaign with the PSP, as it was with the PS1 and PS2; to bring in and capture the teenage and twentysomething demographic. They have a decade of proven and overwhelming success in marketing to that crowd. They essentially invented that demographic in the console market, although one could argue a case for Sega getting there first.

Nintendo seems to be fishing for a slightly older crowd with the DS, as well, what with its PDA-ish design and instant-messaging capabilities. And that makes perfect sense, since the DS is a response to the PSP. Nintendo hopes to maintain the kiddie market with the GBA SP, while capturing the older crowd with the DS.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

Well, that's a problem right there. I don't care about music and movies on a handheld. If I want music, I can buy a MUCH cheaper portable CD player (or if I wanted to go all out, I would just get a mp3 player or a minidisc player).

Sony certainly hasn't been shy about touting the PSP as more than just a videogame machine--"Walkman of the 21st century," remember?--and why should they be? DVD/CD compatibility hasn't harmed PS2 sales, especially in Japan. Of course, DVD has caught on faster than any other format in home-entertainment history, while UMD could be the next Betamax.


As for movies, who wants to watch a movie on such a tiny screen? Laptops are much better for movies on the go, but I personally don't have the time to sit watching a two hour movie when out of the house anyway (and inside the house I'd obviously use my TV).

Have you actually seen the PSP screen live and in person? It's a 4.5" widescreen display, a MASSIVE screen for a portable system, and it's very sharp and bright.

At least one third-party company seems to think GBA owners want movies, as well, what with Majesco's GBA video cartridges.

Yes, laptops are great for movies on the go, but they're also exponentially more expensive than the PSP.

You don't have time to sit and watch a two-hour movie on the go? That means the PSP's battery life obviously isn't an issue for you, since you won't be playing it for more than an hour or two at a time. So you can't complain about that...or can you?


I also gotta wonder, who wants to hold a handheld for the length of a movie? o_O Imagine how tired your hands and arms would get holding them still for that long. Or does Sony expect us to set it down and watch the movie while staring down? Then you got pain in your neck.

The PSP isn't heavy enough that anyone but Olive Oyl would complain of fatigue after holding it for two hours, but I don't hear a lot of complaints from GBA gamers who stare downward during their gaming sessions. This paragraph feels like you're REALLLLLLY reaching for reasons not to like the PSP.


Anyway, since I'd buy the PSP purely for games (and many, many others would too), I hold it to the same standards of all other game handhelds. When every other one I can think of has no regional lockout, I'm going to consider that a negative aspect of the PSP. And since this topic is about what all of us, as individuals, think of the handhelds, that's just me stating my opinons. :)

Nintendo hasn't announced a lack of regional lockout on the DS, so we'll see what happens there. Would you be equally upset if it did? After all, this is the company that INVENTED the regional lockout you're railing against.

As for your other standards, it obviously depends on how highly you value each category. I'm just pointing out that the regional lockout is a feature that won't have a measureable effect on PSP sales.

-- Z.

[Aussie2B]

And you seem to be REALLLLY desperate to defend the PSP. :/ What's it to you if some people aren't interested in it for various reasons? Do you honestly believe that it's perfect? Are you the Sony preacher trying to convert all the heathen DS pagans to PSP-ism? :P

How does the PSP battery work? Does it use standard batteries or does it recharge when not in use? Unless it's the latter, battery life is an issue whether you're watching through a whole movie or playing a game for an hour. It gets used up either way. The longer it can last, the better.

As for fatigue, I'm smart enough to not play any handheld for two hours or any long length of time. If I play too long, my eyes get googly, my hands fall asleep, my back and neck start to ache, and I just feel crappy in general. Have you ever stood in place for a couple hours? You may not be DOING anything, but it's still tiring. Same applies if you're holding your arms out perfectly still for a long length of time in order to watch a movie.

And yes, I would be pissed if Nintendo included regional lockout with the DS. However, it should be noted that Nintendo lockout has always been some of the easiest lockout to get around. For the NES you buy a cheap converter, for the SNES you do the same or easily remove the tabs, same goes for N64 (tabs are a bit harder to remove, though), and for GameCube, you shouldn't have to pay more than 20 bucks for a Freeloader or similar device (which work perfectly with nearly all imports). Now for Sony... don't get me started. Their consoles are so shoddy that they'll likely break if you breathe on them, so once you mod one, you're basically condemning it to a soon death. Mod jobs are usually pretty expensive (unless you're savvy enough to do them yourself, which I'm not nor brave enough). One popular PS2 method requires you to tear apart your disc tray, and I've heard far too many PSX horror stories of springs and upside-down consoles. For the PSX, there were some devices, but most absolutely sucked. With many, you couldn't even play a two-disc game unless there was a save feature between discs. So yeah... Sony is the king of crappy lockout, yet how ironic that PlayStation games are still probably the most pirated games of the last couple system generations.

[zmweasel]

And you seem to be REALLLLY desperate to defend the PSP. :/ What's it to you if some people aren't interested in it for various reasons? Do you honestly believe that it's perfect? Are you the Sony preacher trying to convert all the heathen DS pagans to PSP-ism? :P

I'm just playing devil's advocate, and trying to inject some balance into a very anti-Sony forum. I mentioned in my first post that I was impressed with the DS, and I'm much less skeptical about it now than I was before E3. I'm glad to see Nintendo putting up a fight, because it's going to result in great stuff for gamers.


How does the PSP battery work? Does it use standard batteries or does it recharge when not in use? Unless it's the latter, battery life is an issue whether you're watching through a whole movie or playing a game for an hour. It gets used up either way. The longer it can last, the better.

It's a lithium-ion battery, similar to the GBA SP. Of course, if you're only on the road for an hour or two at a time, it'll never be a problem. Just plug it back in and charge it back up when you get home. You're the one who said you're not on the road long enough to watch a two-hour movie, so battery life is never going to be an issue for you, even if you're using the Nomad. :)


As for fatigue, I'm smart enough to not play any handheld for two hours or any long length of time. If I play too long, my eyes get googly, my hands fall asleep, my back and neck start to ache, and I just feel crappy in general. Have you ever stood in place for a couple hours? You may not be DOING anything, but it's still tiring. Same applies if you're holding your arms out perfectly still for a long length of time in order to watch a movie.

You're comparing standing in place for two hours with sitting for two hours? That's an unfair and nonsensical comparison. And why would I hold my arms out to watch a movie on the PSP instead of simply resting them in my lap, as I do when I'm playing the SP, or using a laptop?


And yes, I would be pissed if Nintendo included regional lockout with the DS. However, it should be noted that Nintendo lockout has always been some of the easiest lockout to get around. For the NES you buy a cheap converter, for the SNES you do the same or easily remove the tabs, same goes for N64 (tabs are a bit harder to remove, though), and for GameCube, you shouldn't have to pay more than 20 bucks for a Freeloader or similar device (which work perfectly with nearly all imports).

So you're okay with Nintendo for inventing territorial lockout and having it in all their home consoles because it's easier to work around than Sony's lockout? That's an incredibly bizarre point of view. Do you also believe Nintendo intentionally makes its lockout easy to work around?

-- Z.

[Aussie2B]

No, I think they're lazy, hehe. :) But it's to my benefit.

I never said (at least I don't think so) that I'm not on the road long; I'm too busy when I'm out to watch a movie. :P The only thing I could really see it being good for is a long flight. Movies are a quiet time, passive kind of thing, so to me it goes against the whole traditional concept of a handheld in which you can turn it on, play for a few minutes, and then get back to whatever you're doing in your life. A portable is a short time-filler, not a big time-waster (like a movie is).

Standing up in place for a long time is a perfectly appropriate comparison. It may not be quite as uncomfortable, but it's a similar scenario. Every person who has ever gripped a controller for a good length of time and had sore hands afterwards understands this. If it tires and hurts my hands to grip a GBA for a long period of time, there's absolutely no reason why the PSP wouldn't do the same after two or more hours of non-stop gripping. With a game you can just save and turn it off, but who wants to stop in the middle of a movie for a break to rest your hands?

Maybe I haven't been around long enough, but I don't really see this as an anti-Sony community (in this topic in particular, it looks quite balanced 50/50). And on the grand scale of things, Sony needs no defending. They're crushing their competition. Even the so-called "anti-Sony" people often own and enjoy the systems. Most just complain about the quality of the hardware or the business tactics of the company (which even the fans need to realize aren't so hot).

[Jasoco]

As nice as watching Movies on the PSP sounds, you still have to realize, to watch them, you will have to buy special MD versions. That only play in your PSP. And maybe specialized Sony licensed future players. UMD's will not replace DVD's, and I don't see many people rushing out to buy the latest blockbuster on both DVD and UMD, unless Sony makes a deal to include both versions in each case. Bloody unlikely.

The DS at least has media already available for it (GBA Cartridges that can play video.) that would be more likely to succeed than the PSP. Hell, if Nintendo sees a need, they might even license one themselves to make it easier for people to view movies on the go. If they haven't already.

The movie playing part of the PSP just doesn't seem important anymore. Big screen is nice, but not worth buying a movie twice in two formats to watch them. Hell, people are just NOT getting used to buying all their old movies on DVD so they can dump their VCR. They aren't going to do the same so soon.

[Ed Oscuro]

I remember a few years back showing a fifth grade class (half of whom owned Game Boys and brought them to school) a Nomad and hearing them say "What the heck is that thing?"
I'd say you were one of the few lucky (or priveleged?) ones that could afford a Nomad, then. What you've said is fair, but I certainly wouldn't hold the Nomad to the same standards as the Game Gear.

Now if I can swing back into the overall topic once again -

I have some high expectations for the DS, but I have it firmly in my mind that the games will be substantially different from what I've played before (some of them, anyway). I consider the "gimmicky" nature of the features and then the impressive nature of what's been seen...it's a hard call for me, for some reason. The features really do get a lot of folks talking and dreaming - which is part of the reason I'm a bit wary of the hype - but at the same time it'd be hard for most folks who've seen the e3 to avoid extoling the virtues of the DS in public.

The real issue is that while the PSP looks to be the best console for playing the sort of games that apparently we've been fine with all along, the lineup has been lacking. Currently the only two games planned for the PSP which I've heard of (for whatever reason - I guess they're big enough to have been worthy of coverage) are Death Jr. and Metal Gear Acid. Both, in my view, have serious flaws that make the handheld look quite flawed. The "glory of NURBs" hasn't impressed me one bit in Death Jr. footage (and I know others think it looks really rather ugly) and Metal Gear Acid doesn't sound promising much at all, and just confirms what some of us have been suspecting all along: Konami must be planning to integrate not only Castlevania but Metal Gear as well into the Yu-Gi-Oh universe, because every newest installment from that company as of late seems to borrow more and more heavily from the Pokemon school, or something. Well, that's not the truth, but I'm certainly not very hyped about the prospect of playing what amounts to a Metal Gear themed card game with some freelook sequences in it. Why a company would present such a game as a serious reason to buy a PSP is very much beyond me.

There's supposedly the great shooter for the PSP; I won't knock that and if I do I'll have to be excused - I've only seen some dark screenshots, no movies. All of this seems very primitive and first-generation all the same.

@ Jasoco: You mention that folks aren't likely to buy UMDs along with regular DVDs, but why are GBA Videos free from the same problems? I think the same problems are present with that console, and if you ask me playing movies on the PSP makes more sense than playing them on the GBA. The PSP is designed to help add to the number of people who consume Sony media products, after all; it's not as high-end as a real portable DVD player but it's a big step up from the GBA's tiny screen. What's more, Sony does have direct control over many of today's movies to begin with. It seems riskier for Nintendo to be playing in that market, if anything.

[zmweasel]

With a game you can just save and turn it off, but who wants to stop in the middle of a movie for a break to rest your hands?

Why not just set the PSP on your lap, or your fold-out tray (on a plane)? I don't see any reason to have to hold the PSP in any situation where you're seated long enough to watch a movie. And, again, the PSP's a very lightweight and ergonomic doohickey, so even if you have to hold it for a while, it's not going to kill your hands. If anything, its horizontal shape will make it more comfortable than the vertical SP.


Maybe I haven't been around long enough, but I don't really see this as an anti-Sony community (in this topic in particular, it looks quite balanced 50/50). And on the grand scale of things, Sony needs no defending. They're crushing their competition. Even the so-called "anti-Sony" people often own and enjoy the systems. Most just complain about the quality of the hardware or the business tactics of the company (which even the fans need to realize aren't so hot).

I perceive the DP forums as very much pro-Nintendo/Sega and anti-Sony, and the results of this thread's poll reinforce that perception.

Sony was the company that made videogames mainstream and made the videogame industry almost wholly dependent on the whims of casual gamers, so I understand where the hate's coming from.

What kills me about the people who complain about Sony's business tactics is that Nintendo's business tactics (in its '80s heyday) were just as brutal, if not more so. These folks need to read "Game Over" and educate themselves.

-- Z.

[ubersaurus]

I'm gonna call Nintendo on this one. I don't think handhelds have really hit the 18+ market yet. I remember playing my SP at college a few weeks back, and hearing some sniggering about the guy playin the game boy. It didn't matter that I was playin Metroid, or indeed, it wouldn't have mattered what I was playing-I was just the guy playing with the kid's toy. The PSP will have it's work cut out for it to appeal to those people.

That's the thrust of Sony's marketing campaign with the PSP, as it was with the PS1 and PS2; to bring in and capture the teenage and twentysomething demographic. They have a decade of proven and overwhelming success in marketing to that crowd. They essentially invented that demographic in the console market, although one could argue a case for Sega getting there first.

Nintendo seems to be fishing for a slightly older crowd with the DS, as well, what with its PDA-ish design and instant-messaging capabilities. And that makes perfect sense, since the DS is a response to the PSP. Nintendo hopes to maintain the kiddie market with the GBA SP, while capturing the older crowd with the DS.

-- Z.

I just don't know if the handheld market in the states has any hope of getting into that 20s crowd at this point of time. I wish sony the best of luck in their endeavor, but I don't know how well it'd get over. Like I said, Sega tried it with the game gear, and that didn't work either. To be fair, that seems to be nintendo's aim too, so I don't know how well the DS will take (though I imagine it'll sell decently well just on account of being Nintendo and handheld).

[Ed Oscuro]

The Forum is certainly pro-Nintendo, pro-Sega and given their current track records, it's more wishful thinking than anything else. The oldschool Nintendo tacics were certainly much more forceful, but I don't pine for those bygone days. I personally have no special recollections of the old NES days - I barely ever touched an NES, and in fact still haven't gotten around to hooking mine up (making it something like 10-12 years since I played one). Companies are fine doing what they can get away with, but it doesn't strengthen their position in the long run - Fed's (self-serving) arguments aside, Microsoft can't just rest on its laurels with early successes. Neither could Nintendo, and neither can Sony.

That's really a dead issue, and I feel that saying "but Nintendo was worse!" cheapens the discussion a bit seeing how most any company in their position would've done the same. Sony's policies might be unpopular with some, but I'm convinced they're the result of real business decisions, rather than a natural inclination towards censorship. What's more, they aren't implicated in any antitrust activities - in this market - yet. (We'll have to see how that sorts out with them owning the movies, the UMDs, and the PSP you'll play them on). I'd rather put a share of the criticism back on Nintendo rather than bash Sony mercilessly - the company that, all things considered, has managed to make for a large number of contented gamers in recent years. Wanna buy good games on the cheap? The PS2 is where you gotta look.

Even Microsoft has a console with games that, at the moment, I think are just as good as anything I would like to play on the GameCube. Comments from Yamamuchi make me wonder which of the companies is set in the direction I want to follow in, though. I think some optimism about Nintendo is warranted - if the games actually turn out to be new and different, which I think they will.

I can't really say I worry or care much anymore. I've noticed that the companies that are in trouble haven't produced anything of special note recently. My recent disillusionment with the Metroid and Zelda franchises helped cement that mindset. I do believe the games seen at e3 have a good chance of bringing me back into gaming, but from now on I'm strictly going from game to game. Capitalism's endless search for brand name recognition (Johnn...er, SNK alive!) and killer apps will sort it all out. :P

All that said...Reggie's comment that Microsoft will (and I paraphrase) let you do anything, "as long as you do it on their OS," does concern me a bit. I think this is a bit of hypocrisy from the company with Eternal Darkness on their console.

[SoulBlazer]

There are some of us who can play and enjoy ALL THREE consoles, because we know that there will always be games out there for us to enjoy, weather they are casual or hardcore. I buy them both. It does'nt matter to me in the end what happens -- I want Nintendo to survive, mostly because the more compeition and games being made, the better. That said, I'll probaly get the DS before the PSP because I don't need a portable movie player and the price is probaly going to be too high. I've never paid over $200 for anything gaming related and don't plan to start now!

[badinsults]

You guys sure get passionate about 2 systems that are not released yet, especially one system that has only a handful of limited demos, and one that didn't have any demos at all. Reserve your judgement until they are released, and let the one with better games win. :p

[zmweasel]

You guys sure get passionate about 2 systems that are not released yet, especially one system that has only a handful of limited demos, and one that didn't have any demos at all. Reserve your judgement until they are released, and let the one with better games win. :p

As Dreamcast owners can tell you, the one with better games doesn't necessarily win. That's why we're discussing marketing strategies, E3 reactions, et cetera. I wish it was only the games that mattered, but that just ain't so.

-- Z.

[SoulBlazer]

Better games? I would have bought a Dreamcast if there was stuff on the system I wanted. A system has to have at least five games before I'll buy it, though, and I could'nt even get THAT high. But my tastes are more in line with hardcore gamers, although I love and play casual games as well. I think that's another reason why the forum seems more pro-DS and anti-PSP -- the DS has the better chance of having hardcore games on it.

But in the end, it WILL come down to the games. We know Nintendo will make some kick ass games for the DS -- the question is what kind of third party support that it gets and if they realize what a truly UNIQUE system we could have here. If we have a game that makes up look at a RPG or a action game and go 'huh, I never knew I could play it like that!', then it's good. If developers just port GBA games over to it and ignore the extra stuff, that's bad. I'm hoping for the former, but fearfull of the latter.

[Nintendo1978]

Nintendo DS look GREATEST!!! I thinking Nintendo DS is more better than Sony PSP. Nintendo DS have touch-screen, wireless, two screen and more. Nintendo DS can have 2D and 3D. Sony PSP just have one screen? just 3D. I'm Adult and I did see all information so I thinking Nintendo DS will be beat Sony PSP ever! I do love Nintendo and I do love Sony but my opinion Nintendo DS is better than Sony PSP. someone did said that thrid party will not make games for Nintendo DS? Not True!!!!!!!! Nintendo DS will have more than 100 games from thrid party! because Thrid Party did saw Nintendo DS in E3 and they said they like Nintendo DS more than Sony PSP so I did voted Nintendo DS is BETTER! :D

[Nature Boy]

I'm not criticizing the touch-screen itself; I just don't know if it's well-suited to Nintendo's preteen audience.


Nintendo seems to be fishing for a slightly older crowd with the DS, as well, what with its PDA-ish design and instant-messaging capabilities.

So do you think the DS is aimed at a pre-teen market or the slightly older crowd?

I agree with the sentiments that it'll be pushed at the older gamer, while still keeping the backwards compatability and bringing the younger crowd along with it (after all, even kids want to play the latest and greatest).

I'm also flabberghasted that while all gamers criticize publishers for continually releasing sequels and me-too games (and rightly so), as soon as somebody tries to think up something knew we pooh-pooh it and write it off. People, don't you think that a new interface might mean newer genres? Hasn't moving from one button controllers to the present 10 button monstrosities brought us at least *some* innovation along the way? I'm not saying the DS is the way to go and all handhelds will follow suit (it could fail miserably for all I know) - but I'm at least willing to give it a chance either way.

[Ed Oscuro]

Personally, these so called "10 button monstrosities" are the best thing to happen to gaming :)

You get a chance to work all your fingers (if you're stubborn about not bettering your visual skills with a good rousing FPS game, there's always hand-eye coordination to learn) and more control is, well, always a good thing.

If anybody wants the full range of two-bit input for action commands, the experience can be easily duplicated by bashing one's head into a wall, and experiencing the sensation of your head's effect on the wall (button depressed) or recovering (button unpressed).

[SoulBlazer]

Also, there are stuides that show that kids and teens are getting a lot more usefull with their thumbs (more control and what not), because of all the eletronic devices in our lifes -- especily the 10 button controllers. :D

[zmweasel]

So do you think the DS is aimed at a pre-teen market or the slightly older crowd?

The latter, just as I stated. My statements are complementary, not contradictory.

Nintendo's traditional audience has always been preteens, and I don't think that demo will do well with the DS's stylus and touch-screen. Any device that encourages kids to smear their sticky little fingers all over it (after they inevitably lose their styluses) is going to have issues.

The DS's PDA and IMing functions are meant to appeal to an older demo than Nintendo has traditionally reached. And those functions were played up in the DS presentation video at Nintendo's embarrassing E3 press conference, with teenagers "flirting" via IM.

Whether the older demo will go with the DS or the PSP remains to be seen, but I give Sony the advantage for the reasons I stated earlier in this thread (its decade-long track record at marketing videogame hardware to teens and twenty-somethings).

-- Z.

[Duncan]

So do you think the DS is aimed at a pre-teen market or the slightly older crowd?

The latter, just as I stated. My statements are complementary, not contradictory.

Nintendo's traditional audience has always been preteens, and I don't think that demo will do well with the DS's stylus and touch-screen. Any device that encourages kids to smear their sticky little fingers all over it (after they inevitably lose their styluses) is going to have issues.

The DS's PDA and IMing functions are meant to appeal to an older demo than Nintendo has traditionally reached. And those functions were played up in the DS presentation video at Nintendo's embarrassing E3 press conference, with teenagers "flirting" via IM.

Whether the older demo will go with the DS or the PSP remains to be seen, but I give Sony the advantage for the reasons I stated earlier in this thread (its decade-long track record at marketing videogame hardware to teens and twenty-somethings).

-- Z.

You seem to be forgetting that Nintendo is still touting the DS as a new product line, and not as a replacement for the GBA series. (Yes, the DS has a GBA port, but I suspect that's just good marketing sense - better to cover all your bases from the start.)

I'll agree that anything involving a touch-screen or a stylus is certainly not intended for kids - at least not kids as I know them. And the game lineup so far, with the possible exception of the SMB franchises, seems to be a little older in scope. Which is good - Nintendo has to realize that the game market is beginning to age a little, so they might as well follow Sony's lead by introducing a more mature handheld.

And while I admit that Sony has a lead in the marketing war (both the PSone and PS2 have been startingly good at getting older gamers into the fold), there's no way they're going to take over Nintendo's handheld market so quickly. And especially not when the unit will most likely cost more for (from what I can see) a very minimal gain in functionality.

Finally, I have to address the issue of regional lockouts. You are right when you state that Nintendo was the first company to really start the lockout trend - but then, their cartridge-based systems have always been the easiest ones to circumvent. They seem to have realized that the number of people who will want to play imported or unlicensed games will always be smaller than the number who stick to the official releases, and this is to the benefit of both sides in the end.

Sony, on the other hand, is using its considerable hardware experience to try and control an entire media format. Nintendo, being a game company from the first, has never had any need to use this form of strong-arm tactics (note the distinction there). And I believe that other posters are right when they say that consumers aren't going to spend yet more money on buying music and movies in SMD format, after having already begun the process of replacing all their VHS tapes with DVDs and cassettes/vinyl with CDs. SMD will most likely remain just a format for games, in much the same way that the GameCube's GD-ROM discs (and maybe even 3DO discs) have been in past years.

I'll admit that I have more loyalty to Nintendo, having given them (and Sega) more of my money over the years than I should probably admit. However...I also love my PSone (die-hard Gran Turismo fan, thanks) and am finally ready to break down and buy a PS2, so you can't call me biased by any stretch.

In the end, I think Nintendo's strong reputation and long-term presence in the handheld field will give them the edge in this new battle for the portable market. The fact that people are already talking about the PS3 tells me a lot about where Sony's video-gaming strengths lie, and where people will be willing to spend their money.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'll agree that anything involving a touch-screen or a stylus is certainly not intended for kids - at least not kids as I know them.
What's simpler conceptually than a touch screen? Heh.

[Duncan]

I'll agree that anything involving a touch-screen or a stylus is certainly not intended for kids - at least not kids as I know them.
What's simpler conceptually than a touch screen? Heh.

Yeah, true, but Z's right in that sticky fingers and touch-screens don't really mix well. Then again, I tend to underestimate Nintendo's ability to make their consoles entirely bombproof. So I could be too cautious.

And, as I've said before in other DS/PSP topics, just remember how badly the original batches of the PS2 were built - then remember that the PSP, being both multi-functional and portable at the same time, will probably not be much better quality-wise unless Sony seriously gets its act together this time. Because no one wants a $200-250 doorstop, after all.

[zmweasel]

You seem to be forgetting that Nintendo is still touting the DS as a new product line, and not as a replacement for the GBA series. (Yes, the DS has a GBA port, but I suspect that's just good marketing sense - better to cover all your bases from the start.)

I haven't forgotten Nintendo's claim, but the last-minute inclusion of the GBA port belies that claim. It's not base-covering, it's backtracking. If the DS takes off, Nintendo will phase out the GBA.


And while I admit that Sony has a lead in the marketing war (both the PSone and PS2 have been startingly good at getting older gamers into the fold), there's no way they're going to take over Nintendo's handheld market so quickly. And especially not when the unit will most likely cost more for (from what I can see) a very minimal gain in functionality.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Sony will instantly take control of the handheld market. The GBA and its massive installed base will be supported for several years to come. The question is whether Sony will be the leader in the next generation of handhelds--whether the PSP and DS will parallel the sales performances of the PS1 and N64.


Sony, on the other hand, is using its considerable hardware experience to try and control an entire media format. Nintendo, being a game company from the first, has never had any need to use this form of strong-arm tactics (note the distinction there).

Nintendo has always used propreitary media formats in order to control the manufacture of games for its systems. It invented lockout technology to maintain that control. You don't consider those to be strong-arm tactics?

Sony has tried and failed to establish format standards in the past (Betamax, Mini-Disc), and there's no question it's going to be a hard sell as anything more than a game format. But it's certainly a cheaper, larger, and more versatile storage medium than a cartridge, which will benefit both publishers and gamers.


In the end, I think Nintendo's strong reputation and long-term presence in the handheld field will give them the edge in this new battle for the portable market. The fact that people are already talking about the PS3 tells me a lot about where Sony's video-gaming strengths lie, and where people will be willing to spend their money.

People are ALWAYS talking about new hardware. Nintendo has already stated it will follow up the GameCube with another home console, and Microsoft is already talking about the Xbox 2. No big deal there. People were talking about Sony entering the portable market for years before the PSP was formally announced.

-- Z.

[lendelin]

Regional lockout? Gimme a break, that won't play a role for sales figures at all, neither for kids nor adults. It doesn't play a role for the majority of these board members, and we are all crazy videogame nuts!

We have little knowledge so far about the games, we have no knowledge about reliability of the hardware, let's stick with what we know so far and subtract the hype of the PR departments.

On the one hand we have the PSP, in all likelihood a powerful little handheld with a nice screen, released by the undisputed market leader of consoles with a great image in the meantime, no problems with attractive games and probably exclusives for the handheld systems; on the other hand we have the DS, the monopolist of the handheld industry with some image problems for a broadened demographic of gamers with very attractive N franchises, a less powerful system from the hardware specs, but TWO screens!

Doesn't seem the marketing for the PSP much easier than for the DS just based on the simple facts above? N avoided the direct competition with the PSP with just another equally powerful handheld (for good reason!), and instead chose something which sets it apart from the PSP. The reputation of the DS is frighteningly dependent on the gameplay value of the second screen; if it fails, there is no doubt in my mind that in the long run there will be at least a 50/50 marketshare between the two systems.

I just can't see how a second screen will deliver unique gameplay elements appealing to a wider audience. Touch-screen, text messages, little menu windows for RPGs, rear-view for racers, drawing little clouds....I just can't see what these gimmicks should do what can't be achieved by a press of a button of a single screen game. I regard them as gimmicks from what I read so far.

If N (and in all likelihood not third party developers which produce games for both systems) can come up with some ingenious gameplay elements for the second screen or not, it's marketing will be much more difficult than for the PSP.

Sony could afford to take a very simple path with a starightforwrd system, N chose a bumpy path with an unusual, pretty complicated and not easy explainable system.

The biggest competitor of the DS will be it's own second screen, the biggest competitor of the PSP will be it's own price tag. The latter is much easier to deal with than the former.

[tynstar]

little early to vote on this yet.

[Link75]

i am a nintendo fan, but the ds is way too big, expensive and dumb-looking, while the PSP is sleek and small, yet also expensive. i think they'll both probably suck but we'll see i guess