Modern/Future Consoles: it's all comin' round

[YoshiM]

Like jean jackets with the leather fringes on the sleeves from the 80's, it looks like modern consoles are starting to go back to the basics. Think back:

The Atari VCS originally came with everything you need: 2 joysticks, 2 paddles, 1 game, power supply, TV hookup. This got you going with one or two players and you could play any VCS game on the market. Other companies followed suit with the two controllers and what-not, but it was the same formula: you got everything you need to play games with no additional hardware (unless you got the more specialized games or wanted a different controller).

The NES started the next generation with (depending on the package) two controllers, a light gun, game, RF box, A/V cables and robot. If I recall, even the starter package NES still came with two controllers, game, RF and A/V cables. Still, everything you needed to play the games on the market, barring the specialiazed controllers. Larger games that you played either had battery backup or a password save.

The 16 Bit era changed this by skimping on a controller (TG-16 owners got the shaft by only having one controller port and have to buy the tap for multiplayer games), but still you could play any game on the market (barring specialized games and multiplayer games) right out of the box.

In more recent times, you really cannot do that anymore. You can't really play games right out of the box as many of the games require a memory card to save your changes and data. Then you still need more controllers for multiplayer games. It was looking like it was going to the illogical extreme where when you buy a new system, you need to buy the power supply, controllers, A/V attachments, etc. all separate. I understand the necessary evil, but the memory cards are still a requirement that's NOT included in the box. An extra investment of $12 to $40. Until now and possibly the future.

The XBox has taken a step back to the heydays where you can at least play every game right out of the box, making memory cards an option rather than a necessity thanks to its hard drive. My brother-in-law and I pitched our cash together and bought a 'Box last week-the special edition version with Sega GT 2002 and Jet Set Radio Future. It felt like the day I bought my Genesis in '90-still needed a controller for multiplayer, but hey I can play anything on the market. It felt good.

With the possibilty of hard drives installed on game machines of the future, do you think we'll get back to the all inclusive package like the Atari VCS for around $200? Thoughts, expansions, smart remarks on this topic?

[kainemaxwell]

never relaly thought of this but sure, consoles are coming full circle and with the expansions, nice to see pack-in games again instad of companies making you shell out more money just to buy a game for your new toy.

[Nature Boy]

The N64 didn't require anything out of the box (although you did need memory cards if you wanted to save some things, like sports seasons, for the most part you didn't need them at all). And the memory expansion did come with a game, so you didn't really have to purchase it seperately if you didn't want to (didn't do much good to those of us who had it for Rogue Leader though).

But I doubt Sony is going to release PS3 with four controller ports or a built in memory card. Sure the competition has them, but some people seem content with spending the extra money to get four player action and don't mind the memory card thing. As long as they're the market share leader they don't have the incentive to make any changes.

[Arcade Antics]

*pats the Dreamcast*

But the Dreamcast Sonic Bundle delivered everything you needed "out of the box" before the X-Box.

Blue controller AND VMU, plus Sonic Adventure, Sonic Shuffle, and a Sonic Adventure 2 demo CD. All for the low, low price of $100.

*pats Dreamcast again*

*goes back to playing Power Stone 2*

[YoshiM]

Okay, there are exceptions to the rule. Yes, many N64 games don't require memory cards thanks to battery back up on those carts. However, as tha Nature Boy mentioned, some games still "need" them. So from an overall standpoint, the cards are still a necessary purchase rather than an option. The memory expansion is one of those "special accessories" like a Power Pad. You don't need it to play the games, only to enhance a certain few (Rogue Leader, 007: TWINE, etc.) or for games that require it, which are few. As for the public acceptance of memory cards, that I understand but I guess I'm just old-fashioned. I just expect to be able to play games out of the box and not need extra stuff, especially since memory cards can be expensive (I believe PS2 cards were like $30 or so?).

@Arcade Antics: again, your DC post is another example of an exception. Many companies pulled that and even did the opposite to try and get people to buy their system. Nintendo released versions of the N64 packed with Star Wars Ep 1 Racer and DK 64 (and I think a couple more as well) and sold a deck with an extra controller. The DC originally came with one controller, power, A/V, modem, a web browsing disc and I *think* a demo disc. It wasn't until later that they released company-packed combos (I'm assuming your Sonic Blue pack was a Sega packed deal and not something from Sam's Club or some other store-generated combo). On the flip side, Sega released the Genesis with just a controller at a lower price to attract customers to buy the deck and then spend the money saved on a game of their choosing. Atari did the same thing with the small 2600 and one joystick that was under 50 bucks ("50 bucks?!") that didn't come with any additional pack ins. I was gearing this thread for the initial releases of consoles (though I didn't specify it). I'll let you get back to buffing your Dreamcast :P

[Arcade Antics]

I was gearing this thread for the initial releases of consoles (though I didn't specify it). I'll let you get back to buffing your Dreamcast :P

Pfft! Not buffing, patting.

*pats Dreamcast*

Sheesh!

But seriously, you can still play *everything* right out of the box. You DON'T need memory cards to play anything. Only for saving progress. So the memory cards are a strongly recommended accessory (especially if you're into the long, role-playing types of games), but not NECESSARY to play. :P

[YoshiM]

What, you don't buff your Dreamcast? And I thought you loved your DC. Sheesh indeed.

I agree, you CAN play any game off of the shelf with no memory back up whatsoever. However, your game playing enjoyment with many of the games on the shelves today is going to be hampered by NOT having a memory card. Take Soul Calibur for example. You can pop it in and battle in Arcade mode all you want and never save. But anything you unlock goes away when you hit the power button. The intent of the game was to go beyond the arcade and give the player more stuff to do, thus giving them "their money's worth" (which Soul Calibur did in SPADES). Thus, to break it down, you are REQUIRED to have the memory pack to completely enjoy this game (unless the player is content with starting their progress all over again in the missions). It's kinda like buying a soft drink on a really hot day only to find out that the drink is warm and the ice is extra. Sure, you can drink your soda, but it's just not enjoyable or refreshing like it is cold. Bad analogy, yeah, probably.

So in the end, I guess it's just up to the player and their tastes. If they enjoy playing an RPG and being stuck at level 1 or playing their favorite NFL team and always starting their career in the Franchise when they power up, then yeah you're right: the memory card really is an accessory :D


[/quote]

[Nature Boy]

I disagree with being able to play without a memory card.

On PS2 launch day I was lucky enough to get a system and three games (Midnight Club Street Racing, SSX, Tekken Tag Tournament), but not lucky enough to get a memory card. I went a week without being able to save anything.

Those games aren't exactly RPGs, but my enjoyment of all of them was hampered by not being able to save anything. Even in Tekken - what's the point of unlocking characters if I have to do it again next time I play the game? For modern console gaming you absolutely *need* a memory card (or the equivalent to save progress).

One of the things I really enjoy about my Xbox is that I haven't had to spend any money on peripherals other than a second controller. I've had to buy a second PS2 memory card because Madden and Smackdown were such memory hogs. I'm close to needing a second Gamecube memory card (although I'll likely buy Animal Crossing which comes with one). And even though I've copied 4 CDs to my Xbox, along with game saves for 6 games (including two different season saves for NHL 2002 and a World Series Baseball save), my hard drive *still* reads 50,000+ free...

[theaveng]

I prefer having the peripherals and games available separately.

I don't need a second controller. I don't need a memory card to enjoy cool games like NASCAR Heat or TimeSpiltters. I don't want a pack-in game. I never played Atari's Combat. And the later pack-in called Pac-Man sucked.

No, give me a minimal setup with a *minimal* pricetag... and then *I* will decide whether or not to buy extra controllers, cards, and/or games. I'd rather pay $200 for the minimal PS2 then $300 for a PS2 with un-necessary extras.

[digitalpress]

I don't need a second controller.

Why am I not surprised by this?


I never played Atari's Combat

*sigh*

[YoshiM]

I don't need a memory card to enjoy cool games like NASCAR Heat or TimeSpiltters.

So, unless you have an X-Box, how do you save your progress in Timesplitters? Do you enjoy playing the same level over and over or do you do like quick bot-controlled multiplayer (note: this is not sarcasm, though it may sound that way, not the intention. Note 2: I haven't played Timesplitters, so I have no idea what "modes" it has). I guess it depends on how much "value" you perceive you are getting for your gaming dollar. If you feel you are getting your $50 worth playing a Quick Race in NASCAR when that is about maybe 40% of the whole game (career, unlockable courses and other what-not taking the other 60%), then hey, great. In Timesplitters if you feel that you are getting your moneys worth playing 5% of the actual game every time you power up, that's cool.

Now the gaming public in general probably doesn't think that way. When they spend their hard earned cash, they want to be able get their money's worth and generally that's the "whole package"-arcade modes, missions, extra fluff, and a partridge in a pear tree. That will almost always require the purchase of a memory card because you can't get the total value of the game without one. If no one wanted the extra fluff, why don't the companies just package the one mode like they used (see Ghouls N Ghosts, Forgotten Worlds, Karnov, etc.) and not the extra stuff? Why put in unlockable stuff? Heck, why not put passwords back in? Answer: people want more bang for the buck. Answer for the password: passwords are a hassle.

Games are bigger in scope to give more people more stuff to play. The option to save give the game the ability to be more engrossing and more interactive by reflecting the changes the players makes in the game (either by progress or manual adjustments, depending on the game) is what people want and the games reflect that. Heck people want to save their controller settings, where are they going to do that? Therefore, in general memory cards are a necessity, unless of course you don't care about saving your progress and/or only playing small bits of the whole game or only play games that absolutely don't use them.

I feel the path of the XBox is the wave of the future. Make memory cards true accessories-for sports people with their created teams or wrestling fans with their latest bruiser to tackle their friend's creation on the friend's console. Stuff like that. Charge a bit more, but leave the customer with the satisfaction that they can play most of the games (barring specialties like DDR pads or light guns) right out of the box to their fullest potential and value.

[Nintendork]

The last system I bought that had all the stuff packed in was my SNES on launch day. System and hook ups, two controllers and Super Mario World. I loved getting a game with my systems. Usually they gave you the title that the company hoped would set the trend for the system as it got going. Besides, it's a free game! Who would turn that down?

Obviously it must be about money these days. And who wouldn't want a 2nd controller? For us college students two is a must, as the most popular games found in dorm rooms seem to be your Maddens, NBA Jams, Bombermen, Tony Hawks etc. Heck, if it's possible the systems should come with 4 controlers for us college students! What do you think we do, study? No way, we're playing games!

[theaveng]

I don't need a second controller.

Why am I not surprised by this?


I don't know. Why aren't you surprised? (Note: We can't read your mind.)

[TheTallMan]

Sir, one need not be a mind reader to realize why it is utterly unsurprising that you only need one controller. Have you not considered the obvious?

[theaveng]

[If you feel you are getting your $50 worth playing a Quick Race in NASCAR when that is about maybe 40% of the whole game (career, unlockable courses and other what-not taking the other 60%), then hey, great.

Yes, it is great. :-) The point which you are missing is that *I* am deciding how to spend my money, not Sony. REPEAT: I'd rather buy a stripped $200 PS2 than a $300 PS2 with a "This Game Sucks" pack-in, a second controller I don't want, and a memory card I don't need. I can use that $100 elsewhere. Which is exactly what I did! Instead of a crapola "Mary-Kate and Ashley" pack-in game and a second controller, I got 3 quality games (NASCAR, FF10, Ico). For me, that was the better bargain.

BTW, did you think the Atari with Pac-Man game was a good deal? I didn't. I paid extra for a game that sucked. That's probably what you'd get with a PS2 pack-in... a sucky game that's not worth the acrylic it's printed on.

[scooterb23]

I like pack in games, and in my experience, they are very rarely junk.

I'm confused a bit theaveng...2 of the 3 games you bought instead of this "bundle" (gee, I must have missed the Olsen Twins PS2 bundle :roll:) are Role-Playing or RPG-style games, which usually take more tha an hour or two to finish...if you don't have a memory card, how can you get anywhere in FF10?? Unless you sit with the PS2 on 24 hours a day...

If that's the case, I know why YOU don't need a second controller...

:lol: :lol:

I am most of the time a solo gamer, but I always buy a second controller, and in the case of XBox and Gamecube, I have 4 controllers...








Because I actually have real friends who will actually come to my house, and play video games; because they can stand to be around me.

[theaveng]

I played Ico and NASCAR without saving, but after I grew tired of dying in FF10 I picked up a *cheap* third-party card a month later for $5. So, here are the two options we are discussing here:

ONE
Bundled PS2 = $300
-pack-in game (probably something lame)
-2 controllers
-Sony memory card

TWO
Stripped PS2 = $200
NASCAR Heat = $30
Ico = $20
FF10 = $50
third-party card = $5
TOTAL = $305

For me, Option 2 was the best deal, because I choose what *I* wanted to buy. Which would be the best deal for you?



Also, I've seen lousy bundles. I already mentioned Atari & Pac-Man (yuck!) but also Nintendo64 and Pikachu. Again, yuck!

Troy

[Iron Monkey]

Wise man once tell.
"Man who Plays with Self also Plays with One controller".
HAAAAAAAAI!

[Nature Boy]

I played Ico and NASCAR without saving, but after I grew tired of dying in FF10 I picked up a *cheap* third-party card a month later for $5.

And do you now play NASCAR and TimeSplitters with a memory card, or do you stand by your statement that you don't need a memory card for these games?

I have no problems with you avoiding a bundle if you don't like the game(s). Do us a favour though and stop going on about it.

The spirit of the topic to me suggests the launch day lineup, not marketing ploys after the system is a year old. If you bought a PS2 back in 2000 you had no real choices when it came to the system. You got it plus one controller and everything else had to be purchased by you (including a game and a *memory card*)

[YoshiM]

@theaveng: with all things in life, it's whatever you decide.

Nature Boy and everyone else understands the point I'm making (well, there IS Arcade Antics with his weird Dreamcast-patting fetish, but we won't go there). Love 'em or hate'em, Microsoft could be paving the way for future consoles to give us a more complete game systems so we don't have to pony up X amount of extra dollars at time of purchase just to play a stinking game.

[theaveng]

And do you now play NASCAR and TimeSplitters with a memory card, or do you stand by your statement that you don't need a memory card for these games? I have no problems with you avoiding a bundle if you don't like the game(s). Do us a favour though and stop going on about it.



I'll stop talking when you stop asking questions. :-) And no, I still don't bother to save anything when playing NASCAR and TimeSplitters. There's no need. I just have FF10 saves so far.

As for X-box, I suppose adding a hard drive is more convenient than save cards, but the cost is an extra $30 on the pricetag. As "cutting edge" as X-box is, it still exceeds my budget.

Troy

[YoshiM]

As for X-box, I suppose adding a hard drive is more convenient than save cards, but the cost is an extra $30 on the pricetag.

Um, it's the same price as a PS2. Where's the extra cost coming from, other than the possiblity that it may be priced higher used than a PS2?

As for not saving in NASCAR or Timesplitters: I can understand NASCAR to a point if you are the occasional racer and don't get into the nitty-gritty of NASCAR (I have no idea how in depth the game goes, like handling parts, gear ratios, etc.). But Timesplitters: there must be save points so you can continue your missions. From your statement you possibly: A) play it all the way through in one sitting, B)only play multiplayer (humans and/or bots), C)play the regular missions over and over again from the very beginning every time you boot up. D) All of the above. Just curious, not poking fun at you or anything, I just find it a bit odd. Might introduce an interesting challenge, but when the power goes off your work is all for nothing as you lose any unlocks and such.

[Arrrhalomynn]

I kinda agree on this with theaveng.( :o )
Sony's controllers are sickeningly expensive. A lot of people who buy a playstation2 have had a psx as well. They don't need a second controller, because they already have one. And if they don't have one, they can buy one from a third party, which is a lot cheaper than a real sony controller.
And on pack in games. I would like to buy an xbox to play morrowind. But the only deal I can find here now is an xbox pack with 2 other games. Of course I would like to play those games, but I'm on a tight budget and rather buy a cheap (or even a little less cheap) xbox without games.

Memory cards are a must though. I can't believe how someone can enjoy a modern console without using them.

[Nature Boy]

And no, I still don't bother to save anything when playing NASCAR and TimeSplitters. There's no need. I just have FF10 saves so far.

Time for a poll I think.

[Mr. NEStalgia]

I think that all systems should come with a second controller. It's just a pain to see that extra expense when you're already shelling out $300 for the console (I bought the PS2 at $300). And that friggin memory card should definitely come packed in because it is almost a neccesity for many games. It broke my heart to see so much money float away in one day. I would have rathered see it in the 1 price tag of the PS2.

If you don't want a second controller, ya probably shouldn't even get a system. You're missing half (if not more) of the fun. Everyone loves hangin out with friends and playin a good ol' multiplayer game.

-=Mr. NEStalgia=-

[theaveng]

Companies operate to make money. But they will not make money by giving away stuff. Therefore, if you expect a company to give away a pack-in game, or a second controller, or a savecard, you can also expect the company to raise the purchase price of the bundled system. That is obvious.

Therefore, if you think you can get all that stuff bundled with a PS2, and still pay the $200 pricetag, you are deluding yourself. The cost of all those extras will raise the purchase price to ~$300.

BTW, Sony is not the only one to sell stripped merchandise. Car companies do it too. They advertise the Base Price without radio, air, automatic, or any other perks. The most infamous example is the Toyota Echo which is advertised for only $10,500 but comes with absolutely no conveniences.



re: TimeSplitters... I play until I die, and then I start over. On my recent attempt, I went nearly 15 hours before I died. I find that not saving the game adds extreme tension... when you die, you actually die. You can't reincarnate yourself with a saved game.

I do the same thing with Turok2 on the N64.

Troy

[YoshiM]

BTW, Sony is not the only one to sell stripped merchandise. Car companies do it too. They advertise the Base Price without radio, air, automatic, or any other perks. The most infamous example is the Toyota Echo which is advertised for only $10,500 but comes with absolutely no conveniences.

::Slaps head:: Oy.

Okay. Using your car example: yes I realize that companies sell stripped merchandise. However, do you NEED a radio? No. Do you NEED an ashtray? No. Do you need an automatic tranny? Well, no, unless you are the type who "grinds them until you finds 'em" then yes. The car will function perfectly well without those perks. Now, what if the seats were an option and not standard (dumb I know, but follow me). Do you not buy seats until you know you are going to be driving on bumpy country roads? No, the seats are a necessity. You could drive the car without them but for safety, comfort, and not sliding to the back of the car when you accelerate you need them.

Now about your 15 hour run: I, and most people in this universe, WISH we had that much time to play games. Back about 13 or so years ago I played games like Ghouls N' Ghosts, Forgotten Worlds, SMB 1-3 and such for hours on end I didn't care about saving. I had the time to burn as I had few responsibilities to worry about after work (and homework I could do in school, I love small town schools).

Your dedication to play the game from the beginning over and over for the sheer challenge is commendable, but you are an exception to the marketing rule and a small minority in the grand scheme.

I agree about the extra controller. That's an accessory. As much as I would love to get two controllers with a new deck. It ain't gonna happen anymore. I beat the memory card thing to death, you know my stance on that. As for bundles: If you do the math, you usually save about $8 to $10 than if you buy things separately (depending where you go, of course. There could be more savings if you go to a place like Sam's Club).

[theaveng]

With a car you DO have options. You can buy the fully accessorized model or the stripped version.

With a bundled PS2 with two controllers and pack-in game, you are forced to take (and pay) for that second controller/game. Why should I be forced to buy these "extras" which I don't want? Bottom Line, for me, a bundled PS2 is a worse deal than the stripped PS2. Your mileage ;-) may vary.

[YoshiM]

Okay, cool. That's how you stand. I agree with you that yes, pack in deals you do have to pay more than a stripped version. But you have to admit that if A)you like the game packed in B)could use another controller Pack in deals are a good way to go (as, depending where you go, you do save some coinage over buying separately). Unfortunately, some places like Sam's Club seem to package in some funky ass games (Experiment 626 with a football game? What?). As you said, mileage may vary.

But I still stand firmly about the memory card thing :wink: