Sony guy explains how PS2 won the console wars.

[digitalpress]

Just in case you missed this interview and analysis.

Also, controversy is fun.

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/nov2002/tc2002116_8930.htm

[congobongo]

The real winner here is the gamer. You have options and a price war. Gotta love that.

[Nature Boy]

@CongoBongo: I agree with you totally. New games definitely seem cheaper today then during my N64 years.

I think being first to market can help but I can never see it being *the* determining factor. It didn't help Sega.

It's easier to look at why their competition isn't #1.

What Nintendo and Sega didn't do was satisfy their public. Saturn seemed rushed to market and had no support. N64 had too few releases and too little 3rd party support (partly to blame on the cart format). PlayStation filled that void and demolished those systems.

And it's followup, PlayStation 2, didn't make any of those types of mistakes.

You could get into "What about Dreamcast," but I think it was too late to save Sega. I know lots of you love Saturn, but it was a dog and it scared me away from Dreamcast along with too many other people. You can further argue that the N64 was a dog too and that Nintendo is doing okay with Gamecube, but lets not forget the power of Game Boy in their coffers.

[zektor]

I love how they compare how many they have shipped as opposed to the competition. That's kind of unfair, considering the PS2 was released quite a bit earlier than the X-Box and Gamecube.

[theaveng]

I love how they compare how many they have shipped as opposed to the competition. That's kind of unfair, considering the PS2 was released quite a bit earlier than the X-Box and Gamecube.


Looking at September sales (just that one month) shows:

#1 PS2
#2 PS1
#3 GameCube
#4 X-box

Clearly the PS2 is dominant. PS2 outsells the other consoles 2 to 1.

[CrazyImpmon]

I don't really pay attention to those statics anyway. It didn't factor in GBA which obviously is outselling everything including PS2 by a wide margin. Or maybe they are only factoring certain details like the total number shipped from Sony vs total sold for other console (which would be unfair)

The only way PS2 can claim victury is if you compare PS2 with both N64 and DC. N64 didn't exactly make a big deal because it still retained the more expensive cart format while game dev moved to CD format for more space and lower cost. And DC... well... all I can say is Sega really screwed something because DC should have killed PS2 long ago.

PS anyone hunting for PS2, you might want to check Walmart #1792 (Caro) as they have a pallet in the middle of the isle stacked with new PS2 up to 10 feet high. :o Biggest stockpile of PS2 I've ever seen at once. There must have been about 100 PS2 on that pallet.

[kevincure]

Crazy...I would doubt GBA is outselling PS2 in *any* territory, let alone the US. And even last month, PS2 was, as noted, greatly increasing their lead. Every stock analyst has mentioned that it's a battle for second now (not necessarily a bad thing).

The reason the PS2 is winning? Lots and lots of games, lots of exclusives, and locks on big franchises (EA online, Gran Turismo and GTA, three of the best selling franchises in America).

[Memona]

Nintendo should have known better, it has been using the same business stratgey since the days of the NES. They should have known to release the system a little eariler. But I think there is going to be a nail in the coffin, they lost Rare.

Microsoft is a marketing genius and is going quite spectular for it's first year in the gaming business. The Playstation wasn't even that popular when it first game out. The next gen systems over the horizon, I plan Microsoft to know the business plans as well as have Rare on track.

Sony is well known. Hard not to buy a system you are aquanted to, ya know.

[Derek543]

Microsoft is a marketing genius and is going quite spectular for it's first year in the gaming business.

Microsoft a marketing genius!!?? There marketing stratergy for the X-Box couldn't possibly be worse. The constant price drops reek of desperation and they seem to have no idea who their target audience is, it seem to be a case of market it at 7 billion different types of consumer and see which take. Nintendo and Sony however have a very clear idea of who buys their consoles/games.

This crhistmas is make or break for X-Box, but with developers rapidly going off the system and a fairly dull exclusives line up I can't see them succeeding.

[theaveng]

Amazing. The monthly sales stats show PS2 outselling the competition 2 to 1.... and people still refuse to accept it. Classic case of Denial.

Troy

[Nature Boy]

Crazy...I would doubt GBA is outselling PS2 in *any* territory, let alone the US.

What's crazy is that the GBA is never mentioned. I've definitely heard that it outsells the PS2 (but I can't recall from what website). It's not hard for *me* to believe - it's a fraction of the cost (launch price, in CAD, was $450 for a PS2 and $140 for a GBA).

You can argue that the portable market is different and I won't disagree with you. I mentioned GBA only because of Sega. Both Nintendo and Microsoft, currently fighting for second, have other avenues of revenue to fall back on. Sega did not. If Sega's Game Gear generated the kinds of revenue that Game Boy has then I'm willing to bet Dreamcast would still be around.

[ManekiNeko]

Well, doucheba- er, Troy, the Playstation 2 didn't really deserve to have outsold its competitors two to one. The media had given the system an unfair advantage in 2000, informing gamers that it was a necessary purchase when in reality, the Dreamcast had so much more to offer. It didn't matter that the Dreamcast had a larger library of higher quality games, no sir, because the Playstation 2 was the "in" thing to buy that holiday season, and absolutely nothing would stop brainless gamers from waiting in endlessly long lines to buy one.
These days, Sony holds its current market advantage with sleazy business practices. Playstation 2s are poorly manufactured, forcing players to buy several and thus artificially boosting the system's user base. And Sony strongarms businesses into prominently displaying their system over everyone else's to ensure that the Playstation 2 will be the first console purchased. The Playstation 2 may be the current industry leader, but if there were any justice in the world, it would have sold 1/10th as many units as the Dreamcast.

JR

[theaveng]

That's nice. I'm here to discuss numbers, not bitterness.

[ManekiNeko]

I'm sure Sony thinks it's pretty nice that they have so many blindly loyal supporters such as yourself, who are willing to justify anything the company has done. It doesn't matter if their actions hurt the industry or even yourself, because hey, you're on the winning team, and that's all that matters... even if that team plays dirty to stay on top.
But you know what? That's nice for the rest of us, too, because gamers who really know this industry also know who *should* have won the console wars. The fact of the matter is, Sony never earned that victory with the Playstation 2... they stole it.

JR

[Arcade Antics]

Amazing. The monthly sales stats show PS2 outselling the competition 2 to 1.... and people still refuse to accept it. Classic case of Denial.

Troy

The hell are you talking about? Who is denying that Sony is outselling the competition? Who is refusing to accept the sales figures? WHO? Who are these people?

</Seinfeld>

[Nature Boy]

@ManekiNeko: Easy there Sega boy. The topic isn't who you *think* should have sold the most units (see "what is your favourite console" for that discussion). It's supposed to be "why is Sony #1."

Somebody from Sony had some ideas. Some of us have some ideas.

You've got to be joking about the multiple system thing. Who, in their right mind, would buy a second copy of a system instead of getting theirs replaced or fixed? I know it's hard, but try to be objective. Or just avoid the topic altogether. Spewing obvious nonsense won't get you any Sega converts.

[lionforce]

Ahhhhh the console wars and the battling of gamers that ensues as a result, gotta love it :D You all make excellent points, being a veteran gamer, I really enjoy seeing all the systems excel as much as possible, I purchase alot and I know what I like in terms of software, but one thing that kinda bothers me is that in every issue of EGM I turn to the top selling games (20 in US) (10 Top Selling Blockbuster Rentals) and (Top 10 Selling in Japan courtesy of Famitsu Mag) and I notice that no Xbox title has made it into the Japanese top 10 yet, I only see PS2 and maybe a few GB and GC titles, I really hope Microsoft is able to carve a piece out of the Japanese market because that would help the Xbox significantly, and I don't think Mr. Gates is content on conquering just North America alone, well I wish him luck in all his efforts because like congobongo said the competition is better for the gamers yeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :twisted:

[ManekiNeko]

"@ManekiNeko: Easy there Sega boy. The topic isn't who you *think* should have sold the most units (see "what is your favourite console" for that discussion). It's supposed to be 'why is Sony #1.'"

I already told you... they got a free ride from the press in 2000 and use unscrupulous business practices to hold onto their current marketplace position. How can you possibly justify their forcing stores to prominently display Playstation 2s instead of competing systems?

"You've got to be joking about the multiple system thing. Who, in their right mind, would buy a second copy of a system instead of getting theirs replaced or fixed?"

When it costs $130 plus shipping to have a Playstation 2 repaired, versus $200 just to buy a new Playstation 2, I think it's a pretty plausible theory. I'm not the only one who feels this way... the creator of Resident Evil expressed a similar viewpoint about the Playstation 2. If you won't listen to him, maybe you'll hear the thousands upon thousands of people with original Playstation units that stopped working properly. Game systems used to be much more reliable than this... you bought one and you could count on it to work for many years. Of course, that was before Sony came along.

"I know it's hard, but try to be objective."

It's hard for who now?

"Or just avoid the topic altogether. Spewing obvious nonsense won't get you any Sega converts."

It's too late to turn people into Sega converts, given the fact that there are no currently supported Sega systems out there. I *would* like people to open their eyes to how badly they're being treated by Sony, though. It's a shame that consumers are willing to take that abuse, because they DO have alternatives to the Playstation. I just hope we'll still be able to make other choices in ten years.

JR

[theaveng]

My Sony monitor still works as good today as it did 6 years ago.

My Sony surround sound system works flawlessly 5 years later.

My Sony walkman still clicks on 15 years after I purchased it.

Yeah. Sony is a *terrible* company. All they make is junk (that was sarcasm). Oh and by the way, if your PS2 breaks, Sony will fix it for FREE. Hmmm. Greed. Free. Greed. Free. Those two words don't mix, and I think your characterization of Sony as a "greedy" company is highly inaccurate. As is most of your comments.

ADVICE: Don't fall in love with hardware. Dreamcast is just a machine. Get over it, set your bitterness aside, and upgrade to something that is still supported: PS2, GCN, or XBox. For you to cry over Dreamcast's lost battle against PS2 is as silly as me crying over Atari's lost battle against Nintendo in 1987. It's history. Let it go.

[kevincure]

Not to further ignite the system wars, but my PS2 is working great, and I've bought two dreamcasts because one broke. 2 of my DC controllers have broke too (the d-pad is sorta shoddy, though nothing compared to the 64 controllers).

[ManekiNeko]

Those are *your* experiences. Now try looking at some of these:

http://mailhost.contiexpedan.be/Playstat.nsf/HomeUK!OpenPage
http://pub30.ezboard.com/fagetecfrm6.showMessage?topicID=85.topic
http://www.recallannouncements.com/your_voice/comments/?aid=32
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/47455?it=3

oh, and this one's priceless!
http://www.thebetateam.com/disk/

I'll spell it out for you if the above evidence isn't enough:

People. Are. Having. Problems. With. Their. Playstations.

It didn't start with the Playstation 2, either. Personally, I've never had any problems with my original Playstation, but I've heard from plenty of people who have, and have experienced the frustration of using other, less stable Playstation systems. I tried a rental unit back in 1996 which wouldn't work properly unless it was turned on its side, and even then performance was dicey at best. I tried a Playstation at a friend's house... that was his fourth system, and even it was on its death bed, refusing to play even simple games like Namco Museum 2. I watched a family try to sell Playstation to a used entertainment store, only to be turned away because the system wouldn't work properly.
I'm not making this up, and these aren't rare, isolated incidents. I think the above links are proof enough of that. You can ignore the problem, but it isn't going away.

JR

[moycon]

Chalk me up as one that has not had the first issue hardware wise or game playwise with the PS2. I don't think you can post a few issues people have had with a product and justify saying that the product sucks. Go to epinions and look up any product you want... Breadmachine, Microwave, PS2 you will always find someone who has had issues, and in the same sentence you will always have people that had no issues. I think the big picture here is, if the product was really as crappy as some people make it out to be, it would A: not still be selling as well and B: Have a shit load of returns...(Who remembers Coleco ADAM??) Its not like consumers don't have alternative choices here. I say if you have a problem fine return the Sony product and get a Microsoft product, but don't try and convice others that havent had a problem that the system sucks. Talk about wasting your breath...errrrr fingers.

[Memona]

Maneki Neko, very very true. Sony does make the PS2 to break after a few months of useage. There was an interview with someone from Squaresoft a few months back, he claimed that he didn't like to work on the PSX because of the lack of quality the PS2 has in parts.

I myself don't have any problems with my PS2. Yet. That isn't to say I havn't seen numerous numerous failures. I just think I'm the lucky one.

On a sidenote, I have NEVER had problems with my SNES. I think Nintendo makes quality devices. Period.

[Sothy]

PS2 seems to melt after 6 months maybe they sell more that way.


**continues shoveling PS2's out of the repair box**

Need a new source for lasers now that Liksang is gone.

[Memona]

This should have been in the emulation thread, but it fits the situation.

This is the reason I love emulation. There is almost no way 10 yearsdown the road that my PS2 isn't going to work. Emulation will allow me to play my games without having to find a PS2 that works. Almost sad really that you have to go for something "simulated" to get a better gaming experience.

I swear how many of you play you games on emulation because you can't get your NES to work without going all blinking screen? I for one do.

[NvrMore]

Actually chalk me up as another gamer who has experienced the shoddy POS1 construction.

When the console first came out I was all eager to get my hands on one and as such got one for Christmas with it's hefty price tag of £300. Christmas day comes and I finally get the machine hooked up and it lasts a whopping 1 minute before it failed and could barely play the demo disk provided with it. After two days of talks / negotiation with the tech support guys I finally took it back and got a replacement. I wasn't the only one though, when I returned it the staff member actually asked me to "place it on today's pile", which consisted of some 20-25 or so other used POS1's which they went on to explain had also been returned because of faults.

I figured it must just have been an early manufacturing problem until some time later my friend's POS1 expired just 3 months out of warranty, then just over a year later another friend whom I had talked into getting a POS1 had only had it for a week before it broke and upon taking it back to the shop for a replacement was greeted with "ah right, another one" before he could even explain what went wrong :?

The latter friend has since bought a PlayStation 2 and I have to admit his experience with it has been much better than it was with his POS1.. it lasted 3 months :lol:

[chrisballer]

I don't know to me they all are good systems and all will be around for years to come. There is way to much money in gaming for any of them to quit and I think the more the better. Better for us gamers anyway they will always try to out do one another and i think the next round of systems will be much much closer in sales, They all have learned from this system war and i think all 3 systems will go into being able to play past system games. There is to much money i think for surtain games to be only one console exclusive. Alot will change in years to come and i will be here to enjoy it all. ps2 might have won this round but everyone thought nintendo and atari in there time was dominant look what has happened maybe some other company down the road will take over who knows. All i know is who cares as long as there is badass games to play.

[Nature Boy]

I already told you... they got a free ride from the press in 2000

Out of curiosity, what do you think about my earlier statement that Sega could have had that free press?

The free press is a good reason for their success. But where you start to wander from the main point of this topic is that you slam Sony for it. Why bother slamming them for it? The topic was "why is Sony #1". Your answer could have been "because of the press they got at launch time." But then you expanded it to slam Sony. That's where I started questioning your objectivity.


and use unscrupulous business practices to hold onto their current marketplace position. How can you possibly justify their forcing stores to prominently display Playstation 2s instead of competing systems?

To be honest the only time I've heard of this 'forcing' has come from you. So I only know those facts you've chosen to present, which don't include any examples of exactly how places were 'strong armed' as you put it.

That aside, what company wouldn't try to get their product prominantly displayed? You think Sega wouldn't? Do you know that grocery stores get paid by companies like General Mills to have their product put on the shelves? And without that money they don't even put it out for sale in some instances? I don't have a problem with that, so why would I have a problem if it were happening for video games?


When it costs $130 plus shipping to have a Playstation 2 repaired, versus $200 just to buy a new Playstation 2, I think it's a pretty plausible theory.


I'm not arguing that they're built super well (PSX or PS2). My PSX has seemed flaky at times for sure. What I'm arguing is that listing this as an example of why Sony is #1 is stupid. You don't have enough facts to back this up. Those websites you listed - are you telling me that people mad enough to post are going to *buy* a new system? I think they're going to buy a Gamecube or an Xbox if anything. You need numbers to back something like this up, and you just don't have them. You're grasping at straws to put anti-Sony stuff in your reply.



Game systems used to be much more reliable than this... you bought one and you could count on it to work for many years. Of course, that was before Sony came along.

Very true. They also used to have far less moving parts (cartridges don't need lasers). But it seems to me you're trying to say that all non-Sony machines are perfectly built. Why won't my DC play Sonic Adventure at all? Why does it seem to take it's time occasionally when booting a game? It seems just as flaky as my PSX at times. And I'm not the only one with this problem.


It's hard for who now?

Although I do like Nintendo best, I don't have a disliking for any company like you dislike Sony. I own and like the Dreamcast. I own and like the PS2. And I own and like Gamecube and Xbox. Each system offers me something different.

I think I'm being very objective. Why would I care if Sony is #1 or not? You seem to despise the fact they're #1 and I believe it's causing you to throw objectivity out of the window. I have much better things to worry about then which video game company is selling more systems. I find it interesting but it has no impact on my life. If Nintendo or Microsoft or Sega were #1 I'd feel the exact same way. (Well, I'd be more happy if Nintendo were #1 I guess :) )



I *would* like people to open their eyes to how badly they're being treated by Sony, though. It's a shame that consumers are willing to take that abuse, because they DO have alternatives to the Playstation. I just hope we'll still be able to make other choices in ten years.

This is what I meant by nonsense. Sony isn't treating anybody poorly. Sure people have problems with their machines. But people have problems with other machines too. It happens when you produce in massive quantities. And the majority of PS2 owners are happy with their purchase and have had no problems with it.

If anything Sony entering the market ensured more competition. And we all win when there is competition. Not only with prices being lower, but the quality of games is higher since they're fighting for our dollar.

An example of an industry without competition right now is wrestling. When the WCW existed, the WWF was forced to compete, and their product was the better for it. Now that there is no competition, their product is taking a major hit (their ratings are *way* lower now then when people could choose between WCW or WWF).

Sega and Nintendo left the door wide open for Sony. They blew it, and you can't blame Sony for that. You can only blame Sega and Nintendo.


I just thought of another reason for PS2 selling well: it plays DVDs out of the box. Dreamcast and Gamecube can't do that. Xbox does it but you need the peripheral, and depending on when you bought it you'd probably not spend the extra $50 to get a DVD playing Xbox over a PS2.