Casual gamers: curse or blessing? or both?

[sabre2922]

Be honest here what are your opinions on the casual gamer "lemming syndrome" situation that currently floods this hobby are they a:
1.CURSE-example: Halo rules but that 2-D metal slug game sucks as mentioned in a recent post
2.BLESSING- i.e. the video game market would not have reached the height in popular culture that it has without all these casual gamers and so-called LEMMINGS! Sabre your an ass! LOL :P
3.BOTH?-maybe
vote or rant or whatever any opinion is better than no opinion right? or something like that x_x

[SoulBlazer]

Both.

I play casual games as well as hardcore games, and love them both.

I'd say more of my game buys are casual as opposed to hardcore.

We need casual games for my sports and RPG fixes, and hardcore for my strategy simulation and dating sim games. LOL

[Cmosfm]

Both as well.

I'd have to say I absolutely hate the "gangsta" games were getting now, anyone seen the new "Blockbuster Flip It card" commercial? That's the shit I'm talking about! I hate seeing those type of commercials aimed at those type of people.

But, I loves me some extreme sports games! Agressive Inline, Dave Mirra, Tony Hawk! Whoooo boy, give me the same damn game with new areas and new music and I am one happy camper. I could have really done without "THUG".

Which moves me into another hate...the normal casual games like above are turning more toward the "hip hop" genre. I swear, everytime I heard "yo dawg" or some other Hip Hop ephitet in the game I cringed. The only game I didn't aim for 100% for, hell, I even enjoyed Disney's Extreme Skate Adventure. Fuck Tony Hawk.

Yeah, Both all the way baby! At least I dont feel like such a dork for spending 100.00 on games at EB anymore. :)

[gamegirl79]

Both, because...

casual gamers tend to follow trends and will jump on the newest sports/GTA clone/gangsta game like stink on shit. It's annoying. Plus, I know quite a few casual gamers who don't take care of their stuff and then wonder why they've had to buy new PS2's and Xboxes. x_x

That's the bad. The good part is that many casual games are fun when I'm in the mood for a sports game or GTA style game. It doesn't happen too often, but I've had good times playing a football or basketball game when friends are over.

It's also fun to hear a casual gamer friend look at something my collection and say "what is THIS?" :)

[Trellisaze]

How about "an inevitability"?

Seriously, I can't think of any mass medium where a large number of its consumers follow things outside of the mainstream.

[Avenger]

Both for sure

Without them the gaming industry would be dead...we need their money! :roll:

but they are one hell of a curse, nothing pisses me off more than a lil know it all....the worst are the Halo Freaks....get away from me, Halo sucks :P

[tholly]

both, for the above reasons

[NintendoMan]

There a damn curse!
This is one of the reasons why nintendo doesn't sell as much anymore.
Casual gamers do just jump on the bandwagon of whats "in". This is the reason why games like the fucking Matrix sell millions of copies and the game completely sucks with too many bugs.

[Half Japanese]

There a damn curse!
This is one of the reasons why nintendo doesn't sell as much anymore.

Huh, here I was all along thinking it was their blatant refusal to create the kind of games most of the public longs to play along with milking the living hell out of nostalgia and their back catalog (see: retro SP, mario and "classic nes" re-releases, not saying they're bad, it's just milking it). Looks like you've got a little Miyamoto poo gracing the tip of your nose there.

[lendelin]

Be honest here what are your opinions on the casual gamer "lemming syndrome" situation that currently floods this hobby are they a:
1.CURSE-example: Halo rules but that 2-D metal slug game sucks as mentioned in a recent post
2.BLESSING- i.e. the video game market would not have reached the height in popular culture that it has without all these casual gamers and so-called LEMMINGS! Sabre your an ass! LOL :P
3.BOTH?-maybe
vote or rant or whatever any opinion is better than no opinion right? or something like that x_x

TO ALL: I don't get the curse example. Is Metal Slug 3 a better game than Halo? and why is Halo the game of the casual gamers? Do you know for sure or is it just an assumption? Maybe Metal Slug 3 is the game of the casual crowd??? What makes Metal Slug 3 a true game for the true gamer (=hardcore)?

Are there certain gameplay elements which makes a game suitable for the hardcore gamer but not for the casual gamer?

If your defining criterion of games for the hardcore gamer is economic success, then Star Wars Kotor is a casual-gamer-game; and Super mario 3, Castlevania 4, and Super Metroid were are all terrible casual-gamer-games; and because I bought the top-seller Super Metroid back then, does this make me a casual gamer of the past, and now playing the same game sometimes 10 years later makes me a hardcore gamer?

I don't get it.

[Avenger]

the ultimate hardcore gamer game = Animal Crossing

It is impossible for casual gamers to play it becuz it is not a casual game

[lendelin]

the ultimate hardcore gamer game = Animal Crossing

It is impossible for casual gamers to play it becuz it is not a casual game

Did you ever hear about tautological definitions? The color red is a red color and therefore it's not white.

[Ed Oscuro]

Casual gamers are who games should be made for. I've nothing against paying lots of money for hardcore games, but I've found that people everywhere have a good sense of what's fun. The problem is that your so-called "casual" gamer who's a fan of Halo is only aware of what's presently available, not thinking about what is possible, and in any case fans of Halo aren't necessarily true casual gamers, but rather fans of trends in gaming that have apparently driven many people away from the scene lately.

So I'm voting...none of the above.

[Daria]

the ultimate hardcore gamer game = Animal Crossing

It is impossible for casual gamers to play it becuz it is not a casual game

So why is it a greatest hits game?

I'd think it's more like the ultimate casual gamer game because anyone and their six year old child can pick it up and start playing.

Actually you know what? Casual gamer as a derogatory term is stupid. So what is some people play games for fun in their spare time, or don't obsesse over the hobby, or only try popular games? It's not any different then when we all had nintendos and played SMB3, the only thing new is now we all have the internet and can bitch about other people's opinions and prefrences.

[Ed Oscuro]

Casual gamer as a derogatory term is stupid.
:rocker:

Avenger, ya just got served.

[Sosage]

TO ALL: I don't get the curse example. Is Metal Slug 3 a better game than Halo? and why is Halo the game of the casual gamers? Do you know for sure or is it just an assumption? Maybe Metal Slug 3 is the game of the casual crowd??? What makes Metal Slug 3 a true game for the true gamer (=hardcore)?

I call it “Punk Rock” syndrome (it’s a stupid name…but I just noticed that whenever anyone talks about punk rock, there is always someone who claims to be more hardcore than everyone else in the discussion :D ). Every medium has that group of people who will always live by some imaginary higher standard. For instance, in this medium someone will say “Halo? PFFFT! Whatever. Metal Slug 3 is what the cool people play.” Which in turn might spark someone slightly more ‘hardcore’ to say, “Metal Slug 3? PFFFT! Whatever. Aba Cho shooters are where it is at.” Which in turn might lead to another hardcore person saying, “Aba Cho? PFFFT! That has pictures. This Infocom game is for the true hardcore gamer”.

As for the poll question…I fail to see how casual gamers hurt anything (other than slowly killing off the 'games are for dorks' vibe that, let's face it, surrounds this hobby).

[lendelin]

Casual gamers are who games should be made for. I've nothing against paying lots of money for hardcore games, but I've found that people everywhere have a good sense of what's fun. The problem is that your so-called "casual" gamer who's a fan of Halo is only aware of what's presently available, not thinking about what is possible, and in any case fans of Halo aren't necessarily true casual gamers, but rather fans of trends in gaming that have apparently driven many people away from the scene lately.

So I'm voting...none of the above.

So...casual gamers have limited knowledge and limited imagination, follow just trends, but at the same time they know what's fun? That's the most ambigious statement I heard in some time, a mix of elitist arrogance and populism.

I could also argue that the so called hardcore gamer is an idiot, but knows what's fun. He's an idiot because 1) he falls for images of games; if it's an overlooked game with average gameplay, it becomes "cool" and overrated. They are more lemming-like than the casual gamer and follows the cool hardcore trend. 2) he doesn't know what innovation is. An R-type Final and Gradius V will deliver 8/16-bit gameplay, stuff we played 15 years ago, no innovation at all, and he falls for it and buys the least innovative games in the market.
He has to be taken serious becasue he knows what's fun and knows which games he likes to play.

This casual gamer/mainstream and hardcore talk is all nonsense!!

1) Why would Metal Slug 3 (insert here Rez, Disgaea, La Pucelle, Final Fantasy X, Ico, Wario World, Animal Crossing, Seroius Sam, Ribbit King, ...) offer nothing for the casual gamer but defines the hardcore gamer? How in the world can certain games/ genres be associated with quality, time spent playing games, knowledge about games and game history?

2) How in the world do we know that metal Slug 3 is bought mostly by hardcore gamers and not casula gamers? How in the world do we know Halo is bought predominantly by casual gamers? Maybe it's the other way around. I don't have data about gaming habits.

3) If casual gamers/ mainstreamers buy the 'hardcore games,' and the hardcorers buy the 'mainstream' games, does these stereotypes make sense at all? I bought Disgaea, Grand Theft Auto 3, Project Gotham Racing, Ico, Gran Turismo 3, Pryzm, R-type Final, Contra SS, Gradius 3 and 4, and Burnout 2; what does this make me? hardcore? a casual gamer? or merely a gamer who like EVERYONE else knows a good game and knows what he likes to play?

4) There is broad agreement overall about high-quality games, give and take the usual quabble about individual disagreements based on individual preferences. The best games are also the best sellers as a general rule (exceptions apply). That means the hardcorers are right there with these trendy mainstreamers to buy the SAME games. A look in a collector's guide tells you that the best games are not rare by any means becasue they also sold well.

[Richter Belmount]

they are a curse for me cause of the whole grand theft auto movement seeing most games getting elements from gta is annoying , just look at the newer jack and daxter , or some other plain on site gta clone.

[sabre2922]

This is in response to Daria, Lendelin and especially ED OSCURO here goes:
I personally see the CASUAL gaming crowd as both a curse and blessing
having stated that I must say they are much more of a curse simply put this little hobby of ours would and COULD survive without the CASUAL GAMING MASSES it did so during the 8- 16-bit days and would do so again even if there was another crash similiar to what happened back in '83 with only enough support for maybe one or two game systems at most.
this one goes out to both LENDELIN and ED OSCURO: I find that these so-called CASUAL GAMERS are in fact THE MOST CLOSED MINDED OF ALL WHEN IT COMES TO GAMES OVERALL here are a few examples of what I myself and IM sure many others here have heard from casual gamers time and time again:
ON 2-D: THAT GAME LOOKS LIKE A SUPER NINTENDO GAME IT MUST SUCK :angry:
on gameplay: I dont care if the game doesnt play good just as long as it LOOKS GOOD O_O
other examples: THE MATRIX RULES THAT (insert any actual good game here;Ico,Veiwtiful Joe, etc) GAME YOU LIKE SUCKS!
PS2 is better cause its got games like GTA yes i still here this at the local gamestop and then proceed to point out that it is on Xbox also :roll:
I also have to say that I DO NOT HAVE SOME IMAGINARY SELF IMPOSED DELUSION THAT I MYSELF NOR ANY OF US HERE ARE BETTER THAN SAID "CASUAL GAMERS" I simply beleive that overall we are the more informed and more importantly OPEN MINDED ones when compared to the average Joe who shells out $50 every year for the "new" Madden game or sees games like METAL SLUG 3 or VEIWTIFUL JOE and see more than a outdated 2-D game we see the beauty and craftsmenship it takes to make said 2-D game but also give credit where credit is do even to the most popular 3-D games as long as thier actually good both in gameplay and graphics.
LATER GAMERS!!!

[Avenger]

i wasnt trying to use the term "casual gamer" in a bad way...Animal Crossing to me is a game you should play a little bit everyday, becuz i found if i didnt, i stopped playing for months...all the "casual gamers" i know wont go near Animal Crossing becuz they only play games once in a while...i dont see y everyones gettin all pissy at me...yea your totally right Daria for us to say casual gamers suck is like people who obsess over certain tv shows makin fun of ppl who dont watch it every single time its on...i also think that year MOST games SHOULD be made for the casual gamer, doesnt mean it wont be a good game...

[sabre2922]

Lendelin wrote: The best games are also the best sellers as a general rule (exceptions apply). That means the hardcorers are right there with these trendy mainstreamers to buy the SAME games. A look in a collector's guide tells you that the best games are not rare by any means becasue they also sold well.
O_O
Damn lendelin you cant actually beleive that crap can you? THE BEST GAMES ARE THE BEST SELLERS AS A GENERAL RULE? Give me a freakin break with your overanalizing hypothetical scenerio rubbish my man jees! LOL
are you sure your not ED OSCURO in disguise just with slightly more "intelligently written" posts?
and yes i am well aware that I have made many new friends here today :D
as Mick Jagger would say PLEASED TO MEET YOU HOPE U GUESS MY NAME! :evil:
it has been a great and very insightful debate!
THANK YOU AND GOODNIGHT

[Duncan]

We really need to define what a supposed "casual" gamer is.

Here's my take...

CASUAL: The person who buys the system all his/her friends have (the progression through the years, then, would be 2600 / NES / Genesis / PS1 / PS2 where overall sales are concerned) and buys the game or games that all his/her friends are playing. In the classic era, this would have been the hottest arcade ports (like Space Invaders or Pac-Man). In the modern era, it's sports games (most notably Madden NFL and NBA Live), wrestling games or whatever the current hot trend is (Grand Theft Auto, Need for Speed or Tony Hawk).

Having worked rather intimately with the sales side of the gaming industry for quite a few years now, I consider myself qualified to make that judgment.

As for my vote on the "casual" gamer's influence, I'd call it a curse (and I have voted accordingly). You'll note that just before the Crash of 1984, there was a major push by the big game companies to port the biggest, most successful titles onto every system - this is why you'll find Pac-Man, Space Invaders or clones of either on roughly any console capable of playing a game (as well as some that really aren't :roll: ).

And you see the same thing happening now - remember when we all thought GTA was a PlayStation exclusive (just like Pac-Man for the 2600)? I don't even think it's out of the realm of possibility that we could see Halo on the PS2 eventually if Microsoft thought they could make money from it. Or, as much as Nintendo denies it, that Mario might someday find his way onto a non-N console.

Maybe we need another crash. Maybe the industry needs to be shaken up again. Maybe game companies need to stop and think about why they're in business in the first place - is it to cater to trends and make more money, or is it to create incredible new experiences that can't be found anywhere else in life?

A fresh start could be great for gamers and the industry. Weed out the crap, keep what works and invent new stuff to fill the gaps. It's cyclical, and it's inevitable in the end. Atari started out with Pong, rode it and improved it until it broke, then tried something new. Nintendo then threw out most of the old rules and did their own thing. And everything else has basically evolved from that point - but you can evolve only so long before hitting a wall.

Where do we go from here, then? What's next?

[lendelin]

This is in response to Daria, Lendelin and especially ED OSCURO here goes:
I personally see the CASUAL gaming crowd as both a curse and blessing
having stated that I must say they are much more of a curse simply put this little hobby of ours would and COULD survive without the CASUAL GAMING MASSES it did so during the 8- 16-bit days and would do so again even if there was another crash similiar to what happened back in '83 with only enough support for maybe one or two game systems at most.


...and I say the distinction casual gamers/hardcore gamers in your sense is nonsense in the first place because of the reasons stated above. The only reasonable difference between the two gamer types is time spent playing games, nothing more and nothing less; and this distinction is only gradual, not balck and white.



this one goes out to both LENDELIN and ED OSCURO: I find that these so-called CASUAL GAMERS are in fact THE MOST CLOSED MINDED OF ALL WHEN IT COMES TO GAMES OVERALL

Are you so sure you are more open-minded than the caaricature type of gamer you depict? I strongly suspect (based on my experience) that there are as many close minded gamers among the hardcorers as among the casual crowd.


ON 2-D: THAT GAME LOOKS LIKE A SUPER NINTENDO GAME IT MUST SUCK

Does the preference for 3D make someone less of a gamer? How often did you hear on this board that "hardcoerers" prefer 2D and wish the old good 2D-times back? Are they close-minded?


on gameplay: I dont care if the game doesnt play good just as long as it LOOKS GOOD

Well, looks are important and trigger instincts, just ask the area below your belt-line. BTW, I doubt that a PLAYER doesn't care how a game PLAYS; looks make come for some first, but gameplay is never ignored.


PS2 is better cause its got games like GTA yes i still here this at the local gamestop and then proceed to point out that it is on Xbox also


PS2 has overall the best and well-balanced game library indeed simply becasue it's the most established system. You see, those casual gamers aren't so dumb after all!


I also have to say that I DO NOT HAVE SOME IMAGINARY SELF IMPOSED DELUSION THAT I MYSELF NOR ANY OF US HERE ARE BETTER THAN SAID "CASUAL GAMERS" I simply beleive that overall we are the more informed and more importantly OPEN MINDED ones when compared to the average Joe...

Well, well, well, you are not better than the mainstream crowd, just better informed and more open-minded? that makes you better, doesn't it? At least you're better than "average Joe" which makes you by definition a member of a minority. Who tells you that the majority of gamers can't recognize a good game when they see and play it and talk about it? Oh, I forgot, you're just better informed and more open-minded than the average guy, but otherwise you're like you and me. :)

[sabre2922]

and before the mighty ED OSCURO comes back with his god complex with some chessy remark like "NICE POST COUNT SABRE!"
I dont care if u think yourself to be some kinda GOD on this forum just because you have 4000 post or whatever even if you happen to control the whole damn site! u seem to have to put your 2 cents in EVERY AND ANY post and try to make yourself seem like your GODS GIFT TO GAMING and your ALL KNOWING SO DONT QUESTION ME really irks me the wrong way man :angry: lol
ED OSCURO have you ever heard the saying THE EMPTY CAN RATTLES THE MOST? over 4000 posts yes indeed my friend yes indeed :)

[lendelin]

Lendelin wrote: The best games are also the best sellers as a general rule (exceptions apply). That means the hardcorers are right there with these trendy mainstreamers to buy the SAME games. A look in a collector's guide tells you that the best games are not rare by any means becasue they also sold well.
O_O
Damn lendelin you cant actually beleive that crap can you? THE BEST GAMES ARE THE BEST SELLERS AS A GENERAL RULE? Give me a freakin break with your overanalizing hypothetical scenerio rubbish my man jees! LOL
are you sure your not ED OSCURO in disguise just with slightly more "intelligently written" posts?
and yes i am well aware that I have made many new friends here today :D
as Mick Jagger would say PLEASED TO MEET YOU HOPE U GUESS MY NAME! :evil:
it has been a great and very insightful debate!
THANK YOU AND GOODNIGHT

This doesn't make any sense and is confusing. "Overanalyzing"??? It's called thinking and casual reasoning. You should see me actually 'analyze', man, you've seen nothing yet. ;)

[lendelin]

and before the mighty ED OSCURO comes back with his god complex with some chessy remark like "NICE POST COUNT SABRE!"
I dont care if u think yourself to be some kinda GOD on this forum just because you have 4000 post or whatever even if you happen to control the whole damn site! u seem to have to put your 2 cents in EVERY AND ANY post and try to make yourself seem like your GODS GIFT TO GAMING and your ALL KNOWING SO DONT QUESTION ME really irks me the wrong way man :angry: lol
ED OSCURO have you ever heard the saying THE EMPTY CAN RATTLES THE MOST? over 4000 posts yes indeed my friend yes indeed :)

I think you might suffer from an inferiority complex and a bit of egomania. Don't take this too seriously, it's just a civilized debate, not a personal vendetta. I still regard this as an exchange of reasoned opinions, nothing more and nothing less. Don't invoke problems where actually no problems are.

Ed Oscuro isn't a God, just a guy who posts reasonable contributions because he tries to reason instead of posting rumblings. This makes his posts more interesting, readable, and less inflammatory than others.

As for my "overanalyzing': it might be a language problem at times. I'm German, I'm not a native speaker. My academic English is better than my casual English, please keep that in mind.

[DasCrewShtool]

I take every opportunity to take my daughter to Chuck E Cheeses so we can sit down and play Pod Racer, do you call that casual, HALO rocks, so why be SNOBBY about games, if you don't like them then don't play the damn things, these companys can't sit back and hope the hardcore gamers want to shell out shit loads of cash for games.

[Duncan]

So...casual gamers have limited knowledge and limited imagination, follow just trends, but at the same time they know what's fun? That's the most ambigious statement I heard in some time, a mix of elitist arrogance and populism.

No, both parts of his statement go together - they know what's fun because it's what they've heard or been told is fun.


I could also argue that the so called hardcore gamer is an idiot, but knows what's fun. He's an idiot because 1) he falls for images of games; if it's an overlooked game with average gameplay, it becomes "cool" and overrated. They are more lemming-like than the casual gamer and follows the cool hardcore trend. 2) he doesn't know what innovation is. An R-type Final and Gradius V will deliver 8/16-bit gameplay, stuff we played 15 years ago, no innovation at all, and he falls for it and buys the least innovative games in the market. He has to be taken serious becasue he knows what's fun and knows which games he likes to play.

This would be ambiguous - or better yet, ill-resolved.

1) The truly hardcore gamer doesn't give a crap about what others think of a game. If it's fun, great! If it's fun and obscure, so much the better. If it's fun and everyone else doesn't agree, then those other people can simply go to hell. On the other hand, if a game is not fun, it simply gets shoved aside in favor of something more interesting. (There is also, of course, the other kind of hardcore gamer who is determined to wring the life out of any game no matter how bad it is.)

2) Contrary to your point, I would argue that truly hardcore gamers cherish innovation. This is why both the 2600 and NES eras are so well-loved by the classic gaming community - the sheer volume of new video game ideas occurring during those periods was simply amazing, and will probably never be matched again. The reason hardcore gamers love stuff like Metal Slug 3 and Viewtiful Joe (perhaps the current pinnacle of 2D action games) is because they push the limits ever farther. I loved Yoshi's Story on the N64 for the same reason - it did incredible, near-artistic things with 2D graphics that hadn't really been seen before. The same can be said for the best 3D games - Super Mario 64 is still hailed as the modern 3D benchmark because no one has yet done anything incredibly different to change people's conceptions of what is possible. And finally, I don't think the most hardcore gamers honestly care how "seriously" they're regarded by those in the so-called mainstream - they're doing what they like, and that's what counts for them.


This casual gamer/mainstream and hardcore talk is all nonsense!!

1) Why would Metal Slug 3 (insert here Rez, Disgaea, La Pucelle, Final Fantasy X, Ico, Wario World, Animal Crossing, Seroius Sam, Ribbit King, ...) offer nothing for the casual gamer but defines the hardcore gamer? How in the world can certain games/ genres be associated with quality, time spent playing games, knowledge about games and game history?

It's because of the learning curve and/or commitment required to really get the most enjoyment out of them. And, also, it's because the games you listed aren't the ones that get all the marketing dollars thrown at them. I'm personally of the opinion that the Metal Slug series, if it had been ported to other consoles besides the long-irrelevant (sorry) Neo-Geo at an earlier point in its life, might have gained more of a following among "mainstream" gamers. (Then again, it would probably also have been subject to a lot more marketing meetings and discussions on how to make it more "accessible".)

Also, do you mean Wario Ware? Because Wario World (the Mario-style platformer) was always intended for a mainstream audience - it just wasn't that popular.


2) How in the world do we know that metal Slug 3 is bought mostly by hardcore gamers and not casula gamers? How in the world do we know Halo is bought predominantly by casual gamers? Maybe it's the other way around. I don't have data about gaming habits.

The big retail outlets don't stock nearly as many copies of Metal Slug 3 as they do of Halo. It's because MS3 is a "niche" title, while Halo is a system-seller (the kind of game that people will buy an Xbox for in much the same way that people bought 2600 systems just to play Space Invaders or Pac-Man). Then again, you have to remember that the Xbox is a "hardcore" system anyway - PS2 is where the majority of the casual or mainstream gamers get their fix. (And I suspect that Halo, good as it is, would probably have been buried in the marketplace by other games if it had been released on the PS2.)


3) If casual gamers/ mainstreamers buy the 'hardcore games,' and the hardcorers buy the 'mainstream' games, does these stereotypes make sense at all? I bought Disgaea, Grand Theft Auto 3, Project Gotham Racing, Ico, Gran Turismo 3, Pryzm, R-type Final, Contra SS, Gradius 3 and 4, and Burnout 2; what does this make me? hardcore? a casual gamer? or merely a gamer who like EVERYONE else knows a good game and knows what he likes to play?

Dude, stop trying so hard. You like what you like, and I like what I like, and Joe Average likes what Joe Average likes. Don't worry about what "class" that puts you in. (Forced to choose, I'd call you hardcore anyway, but so what?)


4) There is broad agreement overall about high-quality games, give and take the usual quabble about individual disagreements based on individual preferences. The best games are also the best sellers as a general rule (exceptions apply). That means the hardcorers are right there with these trendy mainstreamers to buy the SAME games. A look in a collector's guide tells you that the best games are not rare by any means becasue they also sold well.

That's too broad a statement to just brush off with the disclaimer "exceptions apply". There are way too many exceptions to make that claim hold true. Think 2600 Pac-Man or ET - or nearly anything by Acclaim on the NES. Hell, all of the sports games produced by 989 fall under that swath.

And let's not bring collecting into it, because there are many other historical and societal factors involved there. Gaming has become much more popular in the last 10-15 years or so, which means that buying trends have become more mainstream-oriented during that time. So it's not exactly fair to say that what was popular during the NES or Genesis era should directly compare to what's popular today.

[Duncan]

have you ever heard the saying THE EMPTY CAN RATTLES THE MOST?

That's two classic rock lyric references now... :D

What's your problem with Ed? The man makes good points on a regular basis, and it's fun to watch him reason through something. Which is, I gather, what most of his 4000 posts have been doing.

Then again, post counts are meaningless. A good discussion is a good discussion, no matter who's involved or how long they've been around.

[NintendoMan]

There a damn curse!
This is one of the reasons why nintendo doesn't sell as much anymore.

Huh, here I was all along thinking it was their blatant refusal to create the kind of games most of the public longs to play along with milking the living hell out of nostalgia and their back catalog (see: retro SP, mario and "classic nes" re-releases, not saying they're bad, it's just milking it). Looks like you've got a little Miyamoto poo gracing the tip of your nose there.

OK, sorry maybe I need to clarify alittle more. :D Say if sony or micro were to put nintendo out of business. (this will never happen) To me my reasons would be because of all the casual gamers that don't realize great games. It's things like all my casual dumbass friends that all go out of buy a ps2 just because of 1 sports game. I am not knocking anyone for buying a ps2, its just its the casual gamer that overlooks the supposedly kiddie GC.

Remember, this is only my opinion. What games does the public want? I think you are talking more vice city type games? I think?
But to me I don't give a shit about vice city or manhunt or whatever other violent pointless game. I don't like those kind of games. I like the platformer sonic/mario type games that the GC has.

I am leaning towards nintendo more, but thats because I like what they put out. I also love all the titles that they are currently rereleasing, I mean the ones from the nes + snes. I mean why the hell not rerelease those games? If it's such a bad things, why the hell are so many of us idiots buying them, huh?? I mean this is a business and in the end, it is to make money.

[Cmosfm]

This is in response to Daria, Lendelin and especially ED OSCURO here goes:
I personally see the CASUAL gaming crowd as both a curse and blessing
having stated that I must say they are much more of a curse simply put this little hobby of ours would and COULD survive without the CASUAL GAMING MASSES it did so during the 8- 16-bit days and would do so again even if there was another crash similiar to what happened back in '83 with only enough support for maybe one or two game systems at most.


...and I say the distinction casual gamers/hardcore gamers in your sense is nonsense in the first place because of the reasons stated above. The only reasonable difference between the two gamer types is time spent playing games, nothing more and nothing less; and this distinction is only gradual, not balck and white.



this one goes out to both LENDELIN and ED OSCURO: I find that these so-called CASUAL GAMERS are in fact THE MOST CLOSED MINDED OF ALL WHEN IT COMES TO GAMES OVERALL

Are you so sure you are more open-minded than the caaricature type of gamer you depict? I strongly suspect (based on my experience) that there are as many close minded gamers among the hardcorers as among the casual crowd.


ON 2-D: THAT GAME LOOKS LIKE A SUPER NINTENDO GAME IT MUST SUCK

Does the preference for 3D make someone less of a gamer? How often did you hear on this board that "hardcoerers" prefer 2D and wish the old good 2D-times back? Are they close-minded?


on gameplay: I dont care if the game doesnt play good just as long as it LOOKS GOOD

Well, looks are important and trigger instincts, just ask the area below your belt-line. BTW, I doubt that a PLAYER doesn't care how a game PLAYS; looks make come for some first, but gameplay is never ignored.


PS2 is better cause its got games like GTA yes i still here this at the local gamestop and then proceed to point out that it is on Xbox also


PS2 has overall the best and well-balanced game library indeed simply becasue it's the most established system. You see, those casual gamers aren't so dumb after all!


I also have to say that I DO NOT HAVE SOME IMAGINARY SELF IMPOSED DELUSION THAT I MYSELF NOR ANY OF US HERE ARE BETTER THAN SAID "CASUAL GAMERS" I simply beleive that overall we are the more informed and more importantly OPEN MINDED ones when compared to the average Joe...

Well, well, well, you are not better than the mainstream crowd, just better informed and more open-minded? that makes you better, doesn't it? At least you're better than "average Joe" which makes you by definition a member of a minority. Who tells you that the majority of gamers can't recognize a good game when they see and play it and talk about it? Oh, I forgot, you're just better informed and more open-minded than the average guy, but otherwise you're like you and me. :)

SERV'd

Anyways, this topic turned bad...I consider myself a pretty hardcore gamer, I can find at least a handful of games from any genre and enjoy them. I love 2D games on my SNES & Genesis, and I also love 3D games on the PS2 & Gamecube. I'm not going to lie, I LOVE 3D games and would rather play Mario 64 before Super Mario Bros 1 anyday due to the overall sheer depth of it. 3D games are fun! REALLY!

I still don't get the "your only hardcore if you like 2D games" persona that I get off of some people sometimes. It's like playing a 3D games makes you less of a gamer. I love Tony Hawk, GTA is good, Need For Speed Underground is a very pretty game although Halo still sucks. But either way, I'm as hardcore as the next DP collector, I have my Neo Geo AES next to my PSone and a shelf below my Gamecube and NES. I dunno.

3D GAMES ROCK! that's all I gotta say. 2D rocks hard as well. Now off to enjoy the best of both worlds...

KLONOA 2!!!!!

[Daria]

and before the mighty ED OSCURO comes back with his god complex with some chessy remark like "NICE POST COUNT SABRE!"
I dont care if u think yourself to be some kinda GOD on this forum just because you have 4000 post or whatever even if you happen to control the whole damn site! u seem to have to put your 2 cents in EVERY AND ANY post and try to make yourself seem like your GODS GIFT TO GAMING and your ALL KNOWING SO DONT QUESTION ME really irks me the wrong way man :angry: lol
ED OSCURO have you ever heard the saying THE EMPTY CAN RATTLES THE MOST? over 4000 posts yes indeed my friend yes indeed :)

Geez, what crawled up your ass today?

Anyway...


simply put this little hobby of ours would and COULD survive without the CASUAL GAMING MASSES it did so during the 8- 16-bit days

If there weren't casual gamers around in the 8-16 bit eras to keep sales alfoat then where do you think all those Snes and genesis sports games come from? And who are these people with yard sales selling off their old games for a $1.oo surely they can't be the "hardcore" gamers of yesteryear?

[Lord_Magus]

Ok, ladies and gentlemen, enough playing around with words. We have been given the priveledge of using the English language to communicate and ultimately discover the truth, not ramble about nonsense that makes no sense just because its our "opinion".

Casual gamers are not a curse - they are a disease. They are the living representation of everything meaningless in this world, of all the beautiful things in life that have been sacrificed on the altar of temporary pleasure. They are the reason you turn on the radio station and listen to emotionless consumer products like Britney Spears instead of something that actually broadens your horizons. They are the reason companies like EA make over 35 football games a year - unless of course the sport of football has a much deeper meaning than I can comprehend. They are basically what makes video-game companies feel that they can get away with doing stupid things, and the reason why they continue doing it.
Because games nowadays are no longer products of imagination, but of ambition - where once stood an artist, now stands a businessman.

You may feel comfortable thinking "But games were always like this; every era had its bad games etc.", and I couldn't agree more if it wasn't a total waste of time.

Let me tell you guys a story:

Back in the good old days, there was an honorable battle between 2 gaming kings, called Sega and Nintendo. They were constantly competing in terms of quality and originality, and the battle was fierce and glorious. Everyone seemed to benefit from this competition, as many games were produced that were destined to remain forever in the depths of our hearts. One day though, a disaster struck the wonderful world of Gaming. It was called PSX, and had come to forever change everything we had loved. Using elusive techniques unknown to those who matter, they easily assembled an army of zombies, from the people that were once referred to as the "Outsiders". Attacking with weapons like CoolGraphics, ManyPolygons and InfiniteStupidity they totally destroyed all that was noble in this peaceful land. Since then, only a few warriors still stand by their sword and continue to provide genuine, sincere and majestic games that can remind us the power of the human soul, and the foulness of its betrayers...

If you're wondering if there's a moral to the story, there is:
Wake up, stupid people! You know who you are. There are more important things in life than being "cool" and being accepted by losers. Belonging is less important than knowing where you stand. Dont be fooled by trends and religions - maybe that way you'll create your own.

Anyway, thats about it for now...
Have a good night...

[Cmosfm]

Daria has a point also.

We've ALWAYS had casual gamers, ALWAYS. It's just the casual gamers preferences have changed. Now casual gamers want there games to be "cool" because now everyone is obsessed with fitting in and being "cool".

[Captain Wrong]

So, is this the dead horse we're flogging this week?

[Cmosfm]

O_O

Is it just me, or did Lord_Magnus *TRY* to make a point, but came off more like "Soc1ety bl0wz, I'm L33T cuz I don't F1t 1n"?

welcome to the boards and all, but wow, dude...your view this subject is pretty distorted.

[sabre2922]

HAHAHAHA
ok ok now I have a complex and ive been served :( so the almighty have spoken what should I do now?
Ill tell you what I should do
I would like to thank all of these people for SHOWING ME THE LIGHT!
Daria, Landelin, Ed Oscuro and Cmofsmo or whatever it is you have truly shown me the way! How dare anyone come on this board and actually have an UNPOPULAR Opinion and have the actual balls to post it on what I thought to be a free speech board!
Ive only been playing and collecting video games for oh around 30 years so Ive seen it all when it comes to video games the trends the failures and the rise and fall of its popularity as a whole
I post on this board because the majority of gamers here arent looking to get into a pissing match to prove how many hours they spend alone at night reading readers digest like LENDELIN here
I browse and read this board becuase beleive it or not I have a lot of respect for all our fellow gamers as a whole since everone here has his or her own tastes and veiws that are actaully based on experience with the hobby that most of us luv
so there it is hate me luv me I dont care but I hold no ill will towards anyone that can actually argue there point with some degree of intelligence and that does include all of those mentioned above ;)
Daria and cmosfmo I usually agree with your opinions and even if u hate me I still got respect for you all and no IM not kissing ass I just dont hold grudges :D
LATER GAMERS!!!

[Cmosfm]

*feels like a moron for posting so much in one topic*

oh well, anyways....

Hey man, I just want to let you know that I do not hate you. I was just pointing out that your thoughts on casual gamers is a little disoriented. I mean, casual gamers are pretty crappy when it comes to game choice, but I believe there all a little smarter than to like games simply based on graphics and overall "cool" factor. I've seen lots of casual gamers like 2D games, but it just depends on the person.

So yeah, that's all. :D

[Ed Oscuro]

Casual gamers are who games should be made for. I've nothing against paying lots of money for hardcore games, but I've found that people everywhere have a good sense of what's fun. The problem is that your so-called "casual" gamer who's a fan of Halo is only aware of what's presently available, not thinking about what is possible, and in any case fans of Halo aren't necessarily true casual gamers, but rather fans of trends in gaming that have apparently driven many people away from the scene lately.

So I'm voting...none of the above.

So...casual gamers have limited knowledge and limited imagination, follow just trends, but at the same time they know what's fun? That's the most ambigious statement I heard in some time, a mix of elitist arrogance and populism.
I thought it safe to say that folks who put limited time into their gaming likewise put little time into reading and daydreaming about games (such as, well, most of us do). I don't see this as a shortcoming, just a reason for the industry to focus its efforts better and try different things. I sympathize with the Penny-Arcade guys here (http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2001-06-06&res=l), and there's a difference between gaming's ursurpers and whom I percieve to be casual gamers.

I also thought I stopped short of saying casual gamers just follow trends - I said they are who game companies should make games for (though I'm sure companies wouldn't mind if the ratio of casual to hardcore gamers flipped), not that they are who game companies have made games for. Pac-Man won a lot of fans, and some of them haven't been back for the "latest and greatest." I see a bit of what you're getting at, though, and I think it's fair. I guess it's becoming hard to remember some of the dreams from childhood seeing how regimented and standardized the industry is - I wouldn't be surprised to find a casual gamer who has ideas far different from what gaming offers. Right there I'd say your comments are completely accurate - I'm not being fair to human imagination.

As for Avenger, yeah, I guess I stepped a bit out of bounds there.

An' Sabre-rattler, you're always free to point out that I'm an ass, which is absolutely true. That said, I would like to say that my post count is something that has simply accumulated over time, and I very rarely look at it. I suppose posting here gives me a boost to the sense that by collecting I'm doing the right thing, but in and of itself a big post count doesn't mean anything to me. If nothing else I'm just sad that I don't get the fancier Pac-man fruits like a lot of other people :P

If I was some sort of industry guru I'd be writing for magazines, not posting on a forum where my almighty opinion could be easily challenged. That works both ways, though. I'm sure you have greater troubles in life than somebody pointing out some parts of your bullshit opinion that they take exception to - and if nothing else you can always console yourself with the thought your silly shit is better than my silly shit.

Hope to see you back in here soon.

[sabre2922]

lol very true ED very true

[Half Japanese]

An oldie, but a goodie:

http://www.rancidkoolaid.com/images/arguing.jpg

[SegaAges]

Time for my take on this (keep in mind I didn't even try to read half of those long posts):

There are so many degrees of gamers that it is hard to classify them as hardcore and casual. a perfect example is a closet case hardcore gamer that i found out about last week. it appears one of my managers is a crazy die hard gamer (we were partying at his house and I was around until about 5 in the morning, to only hear the NES fire up). Nobody but me knows that all he thinks about is playing games, I guess he likes to keep it a secret.

Being a hardcore gamer is basically being called a "game nerd". whether you like this term or not, the "casual" gamer will know you as it. there is nothing wrong with it, i am a game nerd and damn proud of it.

There are the genre bitches. you know these people. the people that will stick to 1 genre of game and nothing else. there are the mmorpg guys, the rpg guys, the football guys, the basketball guys, fighting guys,the gta guys, the halo guys, it goes on and on. everybody in this forum knows one of these people. these are the people everybody sees as a casual gamer. these are the people where the only way you can get them to play a game with you is when you step into their genre. why is this? i have come to my own conclusion that they are just afraid of losing bad. nobody want to play a fighting game and lose everytime when they are good at foorball games.

there are also the collectors. i have read posts by many of you, where you will buy up everything you can and not even have a chance to play them all. a good example: there is a post about wierd games in this forum, it is near the top. the person holding the contest is asking mainly about 2600 games, and owns a buttload, but needs help because this person hasn't played them. there are many people like this.

now the other part of casual gaming, the part most of you seem to be hating, the bandwagon gamers. if halo 2 was a text adventure, i bet money that it would still be a best seller. it is pretty safe to say that now that gta has established itself on the next gens, the new one will probably get more pre-orders then wind waker did (you guys can't deny it). simpsons: hit and run anybody, need i say more? ok, I am already on a rant, so I will say more, hehe. I bought hit and run thinking it would be a simpsons version of the gta games (i have been playing them since gta first appeared on pc and ps1). the game sucks bad. don't get me wrong, i sat around and beat it, but hell man, i'm on a limited budget, so when i pay 50 for a game, i'm gonna sit down and beat it. think of the driver 3 sales, they will end up not being near as good as the gta games, but i live the driver games.

now i can see where some of you are getting frusterated. you say matrix is buggy, but i kick ass at the game (i have it for ps2). the only bug i have come across in the game is that in some of the polygon cut scenes the voices have an echo, but that is it. i enjoyed the matrix movies, and enjoyed the matrix game. let's face it, we all know what max payne was trying to do with the "bullet time". yes, yes, that is a very big statement, but lets face it, i, myself, can;t think of games that used this feature before the matrix movies came out, now a buttload of games use them. so hell man, it only makes sense that the thing that started the trend use it in its own game.

i have friends that will play only ncaa football games and nothing else. don;t worry, i am slowly changing these people. everytime i chill with these type of people, i will bring a random game over, they will not want anything to do with it, but at the end of the night, they are trying to borrow it from me. i got a madden freak hooked on manhunt and read dead revolver.

i think some of these arguments are saying that many people skip over the really fun games in order to play a game they know they will enjoy (they don't take risks in their game purchases, so to speak). if all these people are skipping over the game, maybe it is only fun to you, or maybe companies like ea know what to do to make money.

somebody brought up the hiphop thing. my only guess to that is that hiphop is the popular thing now. eminem showed everybody that any race can enjoy rap music, so everybody and their mom is listening to it. here is a good example, def jam vendetta. i bought the game because the only wrestling games i like to play are the aki ones (i know anybody here with a n64 can tell me that wcw revenge is fun). yes, it does get annoying to be playing a golf game and hear somebody shout out some slang or something. everybody wants to be the bad boy. rappers seem to be the bad boys now, not the rockers. think of 5 years ago, even 4 in games, when there was more rock in games, were you guys saying all of this then. i think the hiphop thing has to do with your own personal tastes in music. there is no way you will go for a hiphop game is you listen to country. you will love ddr is you are into techno, but hate hiphop games like nba street (this is a generalization, but you get the point). games are able to now push the limits to the poiint where some countries are banning games. you couldn't do that 10 years ago. think of 1994. what would have happened if gta games and the playboy mansion game were to come out? we all know the answer to that. sure there were raunchy games back then, but how many of you can tell me you played leisure suit larry for the gameplay and not the comedy?

now where do i stand?
I am in the middle of everything. i love to collect, but i play every single game i buy, every single 1. i even bought a super rare tectoy sms/gg game from brazil that was sealed, and i opened it to play it. don;t get me wrong, i take extremely good care of it, but i still played it.
i play tiger woods because it is easy and fun, and i beat the matrix in less than 2 hours. i play everything, the hyped and the overlooked. does this make me close minded because i buy and enjoy mainstream, very popular games? i would like to see one of your casual gamers try and enjoy mortal kombat 3 for game gear (it is a long story about why i say game gear instead of sms, that is in other posts). the game is best gg fighter i have ever played. i also enjoy some games that even some of you that claim you are hardcore gamers would not like after so long (stunts for dos, at least 2 hours a day on warioware since i bought it, chopper 2 for dos, even tony hawk underground). yes i said it, i really enjoy thug. does this make me a casual gamer?
i own a bunch of ea big titles, does this make me a casual gamer? when i buy a game, i look for how many players can play on it, does this make me a casual gamer? oh what was that? i somehow break the mold. i am only 1 person in 1 city in 1 country on this planet, there are millions of other collectors out there like me that WILL buy the next big hyped game. many of you are scared that your underground "nerd lifestyle" is now becoming mainstream and now a booming market. don't be afraid, embrace it and enjoy the games. if you don't love hiphop, wait for techno to make it way mainstream again and play those games. don't make excuses for not playing games or not enjoying them based on something like that.

i know you guys are going to try and pick this apart, piece by piece, but before you do, let me say one thing, take in the entire message before you try and split it. i (myself, you do not have to repeat, but some may) am a game nerd. i enjoy being a game nerd. i enjoy the mainstream attention games are now getting. just think of it this way, at least now that games are mainstream, you can say that you were in it when it was till underground, like when punk music went mainstream (leave this as it is, it was mainstream, kinda faded, but hey, blah blah blah this is for another topic). you can say you were here in the scene for the ups and downs. games are at an all time high. we are not cluttered with systems. we have gamecube, xbox, and ps2. there are a few others, but these are the ones people are paying attention to. all 3 systems have best seller lineups, which means business is going at least halfway descent from a gamers standpoint. do not hate what is happening with your beloved underground nerd lifestyle, embrace it and enjoy it.

p.s. - sorry for the super long post, i had alot on my mind