Capcom: "American developers are more creative"

[zmweasel]

In the July '04 issue of Game Informer, Keiji Inafune -- executive officer of Capcoms R&D division -- speaks of how Japanese developers need to emulate America developers. Quoting Mr. Inafune:

"The American style of making games is a lot more creative, more based in movies. The Japanese method has its own unique style. Before it might have worked, now it doesn't. Now, we Japanese have to learn from how Americans make games, to make it more of a movie experience. It is a new challenge, and maybe we can learn something new. This is something we feel we have to do in the future to survive, because the industry is changing so rapidly."

While Capcom obviously doesn't speak for all Japanese developers, it's stunning that ANY Japanese developer would acknowledge the superiority of American developers and their focus on "experience games."

-- Z.

[Ed Oscuro]

If, indeed, there is any "superiority" to acknowledge.

I think those comments are unfortunate because there always has been a big film noir scene in Japan; there's always been a steady outflux of great games. I think the reality is that folks make games that are similar to what's out there, and if Japanese GBA titles are conceptually stuck on platforming and RPGs, then American PC titles are stuck on first person shooters and RTS games. Having a noticeable difference in focus doesn't mean one group's better than another.

Perhaps this reflects Capcom's closeness to Sony, a company which hasn't been known as pushing innovation since their PlayStation really came into being and they'd squashed 2D graphics (and, for the most part, gameplay). It certainly seems to be ignoring Nintendo's DS initiative. Perhaps he thinks games on the DS are "traditional Japanese" works and not cinematic in their experience...hmm.

[slownerveaction]

When the hell is Inafune gonna get around to Mega Man Legends 3? :hmm:

But yeah, it's shocking that any Japanese developer would say this, especially considering how insular and self-congratulating the Japanese game dev scene usually is. There's definitely no denying that American console developers have made huge leaps this generation. For the 3 previous console generations, American developers were basically jokes (outside of sports games). Now it's a regular occurance for American-developed games to succeed critically and commercially.

That being said, I'm not sure if the whole "cinematic" approach is where games need to go. On the other hand, the Japanese development scene has been very stagnent. Just think about what the biggest sellers have been in Japan this year: Super Mario Bros Famicom Mini, Dragon Quest V remake, and Fist of the North Star Pachislot! The American scene, with its newfound focus on high production values, must seem very free and creative by comparison, even if it has its own problems. It's the whole "the grass is greener on the other side" thing.

I'm kinda hoping that Nintendo's whole "simple gameplay comes first" thing establishes itself as the main Japanese philosophy to compete with the American focus on cinematic production values. There's room for both, and I hope that both styles can push creativity and innovation forward. But if the game industry were to become about one thing, it would be very boring. I wouldn't want the game industry to become like Hollywood, where budgets are so large that creativity needs to be jettisoned to ensure that the company can recoup.

Oh wait, that already has happened, hasn't it? LOL

[YoshiM]

Innnnteresting.

Now is Inafune talking about gaming in Japan or America/worldwide in general? I always thought the Japanese gaming public were very local in what games they get, including the style of a game.

[ubersaurus]

I'm really not surprised. The japanese culture isn't as condusive to creativity and innovation as it is to taking other ideas and expanding and improving upon them. Certainly, games based more on japanese culture seem innovative, because they're so damn weird to us, but true innovation, have been really lacking this generation from the japanese. I think I've seen a handful of innovative japanese games from the DC and above consoles.

[ManekiNeko]

And in other news, Keiji Inafune is full of shit.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again... video games are not movies. Movies are not video games. It bothers me that game developers fail to recognize this, and add hours of full-motion video and cut scenes to what is ultimately an empty gaming experience. I want to PLAY a video game, not watch it.

The Japanese have the right idea about game design... more work needs to be put into designing entertaining play mechanics and logical level design, and a lot less effort needs to be wasted on useless crap that leaves players twiddling their thumbs, rather than putting them on the controller where they belong.

JR

[davidbrit2]

It's not so much that either market's style is superior, but rather I think both countries are becoming bored with stagnancy. Perhaps we should be trading styles more often. Give us more insanity like Wario Ware and DDR that focuses primarily on the challenge of the gameplay, and release more American style games that attempt to create a compelling scenario in Japan. I think Pop'n Music and Tony Hawk would be a fair swap. Heh.

[Lemmy Kilmister]

And in other news, Keiji Inafune is full of shit.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again... video games are not movies. Movies are not video games. It bothers me that game developers fail to recognize this, and add hours of full-motion video and cut scenes to what is ultimately an empty gaming experience. I want to PLAY a video game, not watch it.

The Japanese have the right idea about game design... more work needs to be put into designing entertaining play mechanics and logical level design, and a lot less effort needs to be wasted on useless crap that leaves players twiddling their thumbs, rather than putting them on the controller where they belong.

JR

(Glof claps in room) Yeah, who the hell wants to watch a game. I remember cough cough "playing" FFX and xenosaga. x_x Man i should of just tried to catch up on some z's.

[calthaer]

I, too, hate the train-track linearity of some "movie" types of games, but I do think that it's entirely possible to create a great story / cinematic experience with the game while still giving it great gameplay. Cases in point: the Looking Glass Studios legacy of games (System Shock, Thief, Deus Ex), Freedom Force, Warcraft III, Knights of the Old Republic...

Most Japanese games seem either to have an extremely rigid story-structure from which the player cannot deviate (i.e. - Final Fantasy), or they have no story at all (i.e., Mario games).

[ubersaurus]

Being a cinematic game doesn't mean whoring out the cinema scenes. Hell, look at Halo, or KOTOR. They both manage to create a cinematic experience without bogging things down with FMVs and cut scenes constantly.

[link1110]

If you think american developers are more creative, i got 3 words for you: the madden series LOL

[zmweasel]

If you think american developers are more creative, i got 3 words for you: the madden series LOL

Four words right back: The Street Fighter series.

-- Z.

[SoulBlazer]

I'll toss in a word of my own -- Morrowind

[Crush Crawfish]

So the country that created Mister Mosquito, Incredible Crisis, Parappa the Rapper, Monster Party, and Odama is telling us they're uncreative? I'm just....confused. I mean there are definitely some great US made games, like Ratchet & Clank and Prince of Persia, but the US also gets tons of sports games that are the same thing every year, grand theft auto clones up the wazoo, and generic FPS games that multiply like rabbits on viagra. Yep, I'm a confused person right now.

[lendelin]

Inafune is onto something indeed. I read the quote in GI, and in the E3 section of the mag are even more interesting quotes.

Inafunes evaluation has to be read in the context of the slodown of the Japanese game market for two years now. If we assume that other factors for the bad sales figures like the misery index (inflation, GDP, unemployment rate) aren't so important (BIG assumption :) then we have to look indeed into game quality and the conformity/innovation of genres.

Japanese publishers are confronted with the fact that the American market does much better. Why? More American developers and publishers are out there than ever, and it seems that they understood the preferences, "tastes" of their market better than the Japanese publishers. That doesn't mean that those games would do better in Japan (would be interesting to know exact sales figures), it means merely that they satisfy the demand of their market.

The second aspect are new directions in gameplay and new styles. Inafune isn't dumb and meant that games should become more and more like movies, that would make them obsolete; but games like Halo and Star Wars KOTOR headed with their style indeed in a direction to give players movie "experiences," that means emotions invoked by games similar to those of movies.

This isn't new at all, and Japanese developers aren't strangers to the idea (FF X), Amnerican developers just took the concept much further. Miyamoto talked already in the early 90s of games which should give players by graphics, story, and sound movie-like emotional experiences, and tried to do that in Zelda LTTP and Ocarina of Time. Cut-scenes, stories, mood effects by graphics, surprise effects, sudden changes of the players perspectives can deliver it, and American developers are indeed AT LEAST on par in this regard with the Japanese if not further in the meantime.

The traditional concept of RPGs might be mostly affected by it, I think we won't see for long RPGs like Tales of Symphonia which waddle too much in their traditions without delivering something new (as much as I like them, gamers get very fast bored with the same over and over again). How often did we solve the same puzzles, how often did we cast Fire, Water, and Earth spells, how often did we smash crates for items, how often did we fight Fire and Water Dragons, how often did we play 13 year olds who save the world?

I think what's truly behind Inafunes quote and the slow-down of the Japanese market are the socio-demographics of players, it's about the lack of expanding the market. I assume (and I'm speculating here, I don't have sosociodemographic data of US and Japanese gamers) that the kind of games Japanese publishers predominantly wren't as attractive for to the adult and casual gamer; and that's exactly what American developers mastered in the last couple of years, they systematically esxpanded, and that means keeping the old customers and gain new ones.

[Lord_Magus]

Interesting...

Its indeed strange to see that the country that is responsible for placing "creativity" and "innovation" in my gaming vocabulary, has American developers in such high respect. Sure, we've had some great games come out of the American gaming industry, but the creativity that goes into a good Japanese RPG alone is enough to make at least 40 sequels to Halo or Grand Theft Auto ;)

A possibility is that Inafune might be referring to what makes games popular these days: heaps of FMVs and the general "style-over-substance" approach, seem to captivate the gaming public more than that other important ingredient called "gameplay".

Maybe on the other hand its just a sincere demonstration of Japanese modesty. Its always a positive sign seeing someone being more open-mided than proud about his work. After all, when a Master accepts his superiority to his competitors, it means that (he thinks) he has nothing left to learn, therefore destroying his ability to change and evolve. Even if Japanese developers start following\imitating the Americans in terms of game design, I could only see it as an experiment, which ultimately will broaden their horizons and help them deliver even more creative and innovative games in the future.

[Daria]

If you think american developers are more creative, i got 3 words for you: the madden series LOL


Cause as we all know one series exemplifies the entire industry. x_x

[ArnoldRimmer83]

While Capcom does make good games, when it comes to rehashing they are experts. I dunno how many Resident Evils there have been by now, and as of late they sure have been pimping that Dante character of theirs, even making him a playable character in the PS2 port of Viewtiful Joe. Even though he looks a bit out of place.

So if you think it's just American developers that release a billion sequels all the time, then I guess you just need to have paid more attention to game releases. :P

[Aussie2B]

The traditional concept of RPGs might be mostly affected by it, I think we won't see for long RPGs like Tales of Symphonia which waddle too much in their traditions without delivering something new (as much as I like them, gamers get very fast bored with the same over and over again). How often did we solve the same puzzles, how often did we cast Fire, Water, and Earth spells, how often did we smash crates for items, how often did we fight Fire and Water Dragons, how often did we play 13 year olds who save the world?

Have you PLAYED Tales of Symphonia? Absolutely nothing about the Tales series is "traditional". The battle system is unique, different from pretty much any other RPG. While I could understand someone saying that within just the Tales series, there hasn't been a whole lot of changes, but Symphonia is actually quite different from the rest of the series, compared to the limited innovation in the other games.

As for the other stuff, you're just talking themes, and that's pretty pointless. There are countless RPGs with non-fantasy/medieval themes. America is no better anyway. How many rehashed sports games, World War 2/alien/terrorist shooters, generic platformers with annoying characters with "attitude", etc. do we need?

To Inafune I say: "Pfft, yeah right". While I'm glad to see that Capcom is finally realizing like their recycling methods are bad, the man's being an idiot. Just what we need, more Japanese games like Final Fantasy bloated with FMV and nauseating angst-filled plots. I'd rather take sugary sweet "kiddy" games with no plot but a lot of great gameplay than "mature" soap opera bullshit like that.

[Zubiac666]

mmmhhhh

sorry but for me it goes like this in creativity:

Japan
Europe
US

Japan first cause of innovating style,ideas and gameplay.
Examples: Viewtiful Joe; Wario Ware; Okami;Panzer Dragoon; Shenmue;... there are just hundrets of examples.

Second europe......Oh yes. "Beyond good and evil"'s story is amazing and full of creativity. It seems that european developers try harder to innovate than US devs; maybe they know that the customers won't buy their products just because their name is on it(exept Ubisoft).

Sorry(and I know I will get bashing for this) but I can't see so much creativity
in US games......don't get me wrong! I used to see LOTS of creativity but these times are long gone. Yeah,there are exeptions but 99% of the games I see coming from overseas are either war-based(Full Spectrum Warrior;Medal of Honor;Shellshock etc),sports-related(EA) or just violent.
What's with all those "Manhunts","GTA"'s and "Desert Storms"?
Sorry, but killing people isn't "creative" for me in any case.
God bless the rest (1%) who give me great (PC)-RPGs and adventures.

[Ed Oscuro]

What's with all those "Manhunts","GTA"'s and "Desert Storms"?
Indeed, what's with all those Manhunts and GTAs, all 1 of each? LOL

If you're so angry about violence and other bad things, I could do worse than point you straight back towards Japan...not much need to discuss all the sorts of "violent" (and worse!) games to come from there. Then there's Europe, where everything gets censored...

The Industry has its schedule made and its course of action is set...a couple games you don't like is no reason to blast the whole country, though.

[dmhawkmoon]

mmmhhhh

sorry but for me it goes like this in creativity:

Japan
Europe
US

Japan first cause of innovating style,ideas and gameplay.
Examples: Viewtiful Joe; Wario Ware; Okami;Panzer Dragoon; Shenmue;... there are just hundrets of examples.

Second europe......Oh yes. "Beyond good and evil"'s story is amazing and full of creativity. It seems that european developers try harder to innovate than US devs; maybe they know that the customers won't buy their products just because their name is on it(exept Ubisoft).

Sorry(and I know I will get bashing for this) but I can't see so much creativity
in US games......don't get me wrong! I used to see LOTS of creativity but these times are long gone. Yeah,there are exeptions but 99% of the games I see coming from overseas are either war-based(Full Spectrum Warrior;Medal of Honor;Shellshock etc),sports-related(EA) or just violent.
What's with all those "Manhunts","GTA"'s and "Desert Storms"?
Sorry, but killing people isn't "creative" for me in any case.
God bless the rest (1%) who give me great (PC)-RPGs and adventures.

These are very infair statements. For the Japanese side you list some major innovative games (except Shenmue which is just stupid :P) and then just generalize for the American side. The fact is that the game market is and always has been overwhelmed with rehashes and uninventive garbage from all sides. You can accuse Japan of releasing too many anime-based games and card games and monster ranching games just as well as you can accuse Americans of releasing too many violent games. I am a happy gamer and I've found good games from all sides and can easily name really worthwhile games from all over.

Though I don't really understand what Inafune is talking about... The only time I really get that movie feel is from RPGs, which Japan supplies the most of... Though most of them feel more silly than movie-like... Maybe that's what he means? Less silly anime cheese and more real drama? I'd love that...

[kevincure]

Give Keiji a break...he's possibly the top talent at Capcom, and if there's any company in the world that's better at shelling out Game X Super Turbo 4, it's his. Not saying Capcom games aren't fun, but innovative?

Some of what we mistake for creative is only wierd (for us, at least): I'm sure Tokimeki Memorial would be seen as innovative here in the states.

Further, I don't think many people here quite get what is and isn't American. Grand Theft Auto, for instance, certainly isn't an American game, unless DMA has moved from ol' Scotland without me noticing. Same goes for the Tomb Raider series.

As for innovation in the US, how about the Eyetoy, which is, I think, the most interesting development in this generation? Squad-based wargames, while mentioned as derivative, are another recent US innovation.

The strange thing with innovation is that we're quickly hitting the limit. Nobody knocks a great Western or great Animated kids movie simply because someone has made a Western or an animated kids flick before. There aren't any genres left to conquer, and talent is better used on improving the ideas we already have. The days when totally new styles of gameplay will come frequently are over. Survival Horror, 3d "Tomb Raider" Adventure, Music and 3d Platformer may be the only new genres since 1995, but it's fine as long as the games are good.

Lastly, on Japanese innovation: RE has had 7 titles, Metal Slug is up to MS5, FF has 10 plus spinoffs, Gran Turismo is up to 4, we've hung out with Zelda 8 times on console, etc., etc.. Not every JPN game is Vib Ribbon or Magic Pengel.

[YoshiM]

After reading this thread some I think some of you are focusing on the "gems" from country rather than looking at the "whole catalog". Sure, Japan has cranked out a lot of memorable games but I'm sure there are others we have no problem forgetting. And while we may only see a select pieces of Japanese software in the States I'll bet some zenny that Japan has the same genre glut problems that we have with FPS, sports and racing games (to name a few).

[petewhitley]

The grass is always greener on the other side. That goes for anyone who thinks one country produces markedly better games than theirs.

[EnemyZero]

now thats an empty comment, lol im so sick of playing games like GTA, and games based off movies, and FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS, wheres more innovative games like, space channel 5, jet set radio, DDR, and all the other endless JAPANESE titles....i hate american games, they become duller, and more tedious with ever new title that comes out

[kai123]

Wasn't the Eyetoy a Sony of Europe product?

[dmhawkmoon]

I'm seriously surprised that there are a number of people here who think that the US is the only country to release uninventive crap...

[Aussie2B]

sorry but for me it goes like this in creativity:

Japan
Europe
US

I agree with you absolutely there. Americans have a way of stealing all the credit for themselves (look at Rockstar with Capcom's Red Dead Revolver). Nine times out of ten when I enjoy a non-Japanese game, it's not from America. Usually Europe, sometimes Canada. Americans are capitalist pigs; they care far more about releasing a "safe" game that'll make a load of money because it's just a rehash of an already well-received title. The Japanese do the same (pretty much everyone does in this day and age when game production values are as big as movies), but I see FAR more innovation coming from Japan, Europe, and Canada than I see coming from the US.

[Aussie2B]

Some of what we mistake for creative is only wierd (for us, at least): I'm sure Tokimeki Memorial would be seen as innovative here in the states.

Tokimeki Memorial WAS innovative. :/ Tokimeki Memorial is to the dating sim genre what Street Fighter 2 is to the fighting genre. They may not have been the absolute first game of their respective genres, BUT they set all the standards and basically defined what the genre should be.

[Hep038]

I wonder when this "anything that has to do with the US sucks" fad is going to end. It is starting to bog down these message boards. One industry person makes a observation about how he likes the different way US games are created and it turns into "Americans have a way of stealing all the credit for themselves" and "Americans are capitalist pigs". Man this place is full of player haters! LOL

[EnemyZero]

I'm seriously surprised that there are a number of people here who think that the US is the only country to release uninventive crap...

thats because it is, dont get me wrong, japan and europe have there flukes, but american gaming is BORING for the most part, you name an american game and i can think of at least 10 more just like it. We get so many stale movie-to-game here, its lame, and the sad thing is they are all very bad, the only movie game i enjoyed was spiderman, it was a decent game from an awesome comic book hero. the problem with american gaming is its so predictable, if its not sports - its senseless killing of other people - if not that its an cop out to bust the bad guys who are selling drugs - or a first person shooter where we are protecting the world from alien scum - and most recently war games - in essence its all the same boring garbage we've seen before -

how many american titles have been released tredding into untred waters? how many games tried something new and inovative...mmm i'll be damned i cant think of one. the sad this is the next gerneration will be the exact same as this one too. HOLY CRAP GTA WE CAN GO WHEREVER WE WANT AND KILL WHOEVER WE WANT....WE CAN WHAT? STEAL ANY CAR??? NO WAY....ooo ingenuity at its finest.

OK im done bitching and complaining, about crappy american games....im going to buy some imports thank you very much
:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

[Aussie2B]

I wonder when this "anything that has to do with the US sucks" fad is going to end. It is starting to bog down these message boards. One industry person makes a observation about how he likes the different way US games are created and it turns into "Americans have a way of stealing all the credit for themselves" and "Americans are capitalist pigs". Man this place is full of player haters! LOL

Even people who love the US (which includes myself) have to admit that those are accurate generalizations about the American people. The Japanese are equally money-grubbing, but at least they still care about being polite, honest, and upholding their honor. Americans will do ANYTHING for money. They'll make a complete disgrace out of themselves just to get it. Hasn't "reality" TV taught you anything? ;P

ANYWAY...

Those were completely relevant points in this conversation. Inafune is saying that Americans have been more creative than the Japanese; others disagree. I pointed out that most creative "American" games aren't made in the US at all, but rather in Europe or Canada. Then I pointed out that Americans are too concerned with making money to take creative risks.

[dmhawkmoon]

I'm seriously surprised that there are a number of people here who think that the US is the only country to release uninventive crap...

thats because it is, dont get me wrong, japan and europe have there flukes, but american gaming is BORING for the most part, you name an american game and i can think of at least 10 more just like it. We get so many stale movie-to-game here, its lame, and the sad thing is they are all very bad, the only movie game i enjoyed was spiderman, it was a decent game from an awesome comic book hero. the problem with american gaming is its so predictable, if its not sports - its senseless killing of other people - if not that its an cop out to bust the bad guys who are selling drugs - or a first person shooter where we are protecting the world from alien scum - and most recently war games - in essence its all the same boring garbage we've seen before -

how many american titles have been released tredding into untred waters? how many games tried something new and inovative...mmm i'll be damned i cant think of one. the sad this is the next gerneration will be the exact same as this one too. HOLY CRAP GTA WE CAN GO WHEREVER WE WANT AND KILL WHOEVER WE WANT....WE CAN WHAT? STEAL ANY CAR??? NO WAY....ooo ingenuity at its finest.

OK im done bitching and complaining, about crappy american games....im going to buy some imports thank you very much
:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Do you really know anything about video games? I'm not going to go do your research for you, but please get a grip. Here, I'll get you started... Ultima, Blizzard, Might and Magic.... Those all bring gory images to mind, right?

Want me to sound like you for a second?

OMG DRAGONBALL VIDEO GAMES SUCK JUST CASHING IN ON THE OLD VIOLENT DRAGONBALL GAMES THINKING PEOPLE ARE MINDLES DB DRONES WHO WILL BUY ANYTHING! IT MAKES ME SO MAD! I CAN NAME A MILLION ANIME TO GAME CONVERSIONS THAT SUCKED OMG I'M SO MAD I'M GOING TO GO PLAY A NICE INNOVATIVE GAME LIKE WARCRAFT NOW!

[le geek]

Just FYI, Grand Theft Auto (series) is not an American game. It's British by the artists formally known as DMA Design, who created the superlative Lemmings published by Psygnosis.

And to be fair, games cost a lot to make and market. The Dreamcast is my favorite system in recent memory for the sheer amount of awesome/diverse/ and "new" games released for it. It failed. Playstation 2 started out with a bunch of proven PSOne games with prettier graphics. It is currently the market leader.

And in every era of any entertainment there has been a large percentage of god awful crap. It's just in memory that we remember only the good stuff.

But really, if many more awesome games came out more often how many would you play through? I still have backlog to N64! :)

And to all you "bloody foreigners" on the board, not ALL Americans are capitalist pigs. Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to stuff myself with double cheeseburgers...

Ben

[dethink]

it's funny, there were 800000000000 mario clone platformers in the NES's day, but it seems that revisionist history pushes that aside...

both sides have their creative merits. i would say that US & european developers have consistently been more innovative then and now. from old arcade games (bally/williams/midway), to PC titles (the old lucasarts/sierra games), to console games (rare, DMA, etc.), but their ambitions always seem to outstrip the hardware, or don't have the finely tuned gameplay of their japanese counterparts. the japanese have a lock on simple yet deep, tight, addictive play mechanics -- non-japanese developers nowadays seem to try and integrate too many functions and buttons into a control scheme, and mistake "complexity" with depth. this unfortunately is a by-product of creating these huge complex games - all these extra moves are a band aid to make other imbalances fair. also, the japanese titles that stand the test of time usually entail some kind of ranking system or control scheme that can work on a whole other level to separate those who run through the game from those who master it, instead of making the game extremely long (RPG's not included). as a result, a lot of these high profile titles just don't feel as refined...they feel loose, and incomplete.

then again, to make things like this work, the japanese make other sacrifices - there's nothing in a japanese game as expansive as GTA's cities. the japanese (typically) won't push the hardware to a level where controls get bogged down, frame rates chug, etc. i'd love to see something like GTA combined with the madcap blasting gameplay of devil may cry, until the technology can support it, we're not gonna see it. the developer would have to carefully craft an entire city as meticulously as the small areas of DMC to allow for that upper level of control mastery. it would take an extraordinarily long time to develop and tweak. right now you'd hit a technological dead end trying to do something like that and keep it running smooth, but even if you could, would the dev time/costs involved in making an entire city with little programming "hooks" to allow players to take the game to another level even be feasable?

[Kid Ice]

I've said it once, and I'll say it again... video games are not movies. Movies are not video games. It bothers me that game developers fail to recognize this, and add hours of full-motion video and cut scenes to what is ultimately an empty gaming experience. I want to PLAY a video game, not watch it.


:hail:

[Daria]

thats because it is, dont get me wrong, japan and europe have there flukes, but american gaming is BORING for the most part, you name an american game and i can think of at least 10 more just like it.

The Sims? We're starting to see clones but I don't think it's reached 10 yet. Besides any really great gaming success is going to have it's fair share of uninspiring clones. American or Japanese. "Immitation is the greatest form of flattery" and all that.

[Ed Oscuro]

Surprising how many people are on the US games industry hate train...but I guess not.

Familiarity breeds discontent.

If you compare only A-list Japanese titles to come out here in America or that you're looking for to your average American game, you're not going to come down in favor of American companies. If you look at the mainstream in Japanese and American games, though, I think you'll find there's actually a lot of so-so stuff. Japanese culture plays a big part, too; it all seems new, strange, and exciting; whereas apple pie and cowboys are old hat http://www.digitpress.com/forum/images/smiles/Llol.gif

Perhaps you can say that Japanese games have had more interesting sources of inspiration - sentai to big robots and ninjas, sometimes even big robot ninja sentai; all very dynamic stuff. For being descended from the Puritan tradition, though, you have to admit American games haven't done half bad.

As for European gaming being better than American games; well, I honestly have to take issue with that. There have been a few outstanding developers, but it seems to me that European games stick to much the same formula as American ones, and I can remember quite a few by-the-numbers games that have come out of Germany.

Watch this space: Southeast Asia/Micronesia, especially south Korea and Taiwan.

[kevincure]

kai123...maybe Eyetoy was published by SCEE? I just finished reading about the guys behind the game in the new MIT Tech Review, and they're definitely American.

Since we're on the subject of US v. Jap/EU games, the same argument applies to film. I'm stunned every time I hear someone say that foreign films (lumped together, of course) are more innovative and interesting that US films. Whether or not this is true, the fact still remains that only top foreign films get a worldwide release. If the only US films released were Oscar nominees, we'd be fawning over them as well.

[davidbrit2]

Even people who love the US (which includes myself) have to admit that those are accurate generalizations about the American people. The Japanese are equally money-grubbing, but at least they still care about being polite, honest, and upholding their honor. Americans will do ANYTHING for money. They'll make a complete disgrace out of themselves just to get it. Hasn't "reality" TV taught you anything? ;P

Clearly you're not familiar with the Japanese counterparts to these television shows. They make our reality programming look positively quaint. I seem to remember one in particular called Drunken Salary Man Challenge, or something like that. And then there's the one with the guy that had to live off of entering mail contests for a year, and at one point had nothing to eat but dog food.

By the way, how does the number of Japanese game development companies compare to the number of similar US companies? Statistically, if they're cranking out more games, then they're going to have more memorable hits among them. The problem with US gaming is that the market is too saturated with franchise and license cash grabs. I'm not sure if the same is true of the Japanese market, but it makes for some very lackluster games. (For reference, see Atari 2600 Pac-Man, E.T., etc.)

[lendelin]

Holy shmoly, this thread went astray with black-and-white pics! Read the original quote again, Inafune talked about the "style of making games" and there is a "more" in there too. This is not a radical statement, rather a thread gone wild with radical interpreatations of a modest statement.

The Americans are as creative as the Japanese and the Europeans, it's not about a qulitative list list of creativity.

Inafune didn't say a thing about deep gameplay either, and he didn't claim Japanese or American or European cultural creative superiority when it comes to games. He talked about "style," nothing more and nothing less.

For all of you who drew these carricature of American games, how do you explain that the Japanese game market is in a serious condition and the American market is not?

Are these Japanese gamers just plain dumb not to recognize the wonderful creative games they get offered?

Is Inafune dumb when he recognizes the necessity of going in new directions because MAYBE, just maybe Japanese publishers offered too much of the same, swamped the market with the same and have to look for new inspirations?

(and please don't escape over elitist clouds by saying THE Japanese developers produce for the "true" gaming mionority while THE American publishers produce for the mass market, which would be just plain dumb.)

It's amazing to me how easily national borders are drawn for a medium like games which have a remarkably universal appeal (like music, and unlike literature). That's one of the strenghths of games, despite cultural differences. What goes here sometimes doesn't go there, different traditions, there are value and attitude differences between countries, we all know them or should know them beyond stereotypes; but American games, Japanese games, European games have a remarkably world-wide appeal like music.

It's about "style," not deep gameplay or deep ideological difefrnces between countries, not about searching for examples which confirm unacceptable stereotypes, (the Eye Toy was indeed developed by Sony of Europe and not in Japan) not about a biased selection of games of different countries in order to paint a distorted picture.

It's about something which burns on our nails in Europe, USA, Canada, and Japan. It's about the change in style for games. Super Mario seems outdated and doesn't sell as well in the US AND Japan (SM Sunshine had disappointing sales figures in Japan). The new upcoming Zelda features a more "adult" Link with probably (!) more realistic violence, and these so-called wonderful Japanese developers who supposedly search for the holy grail of innocent, creative gameplay of the past gave us "splashy-flashy" games like Devil May Cry, Onimusha, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy X, etc.

Nah, there is no big difference between Japanese and American games overall, only subtle nuances when it comes to niche markets; It's about a change in game- and play-style which American developers picked up earlier and are a tad ahead of the Japanese developers; it's also about the broadening of the sociodemographics of game players which American developers (in particular EA) achieved and the Japanese market didn't to such an extent; the latter is a speculation!

Without knowing how certain games did exactly in BOTH markets, who exactly bought which games, how exactly the same game did in both markets, and without very specific sociodemographic data of Japanese gamers we can only speculate.

[lendelin]

Since we're on the subject of US v. Jap/EU games, the same argument applies to film. I'm stunned every time I hear someone say that foreign films (lumped together, of course) are more innovative and interesting that US films. Whether or not this is true, the fact still remains that only top foreign films get a worldwide release. If the only US films released were Oscar nominees, we'd be fawning over them as well.

I completely agree! This bashing of American movies compared to European movies is babble, and I say this as a German. The German movie industry is almost dead for four decades now becasue in the 60s and 70s the connection to the audience was lost, the French movie industry is in a beauty sleep for the same time. There are only two countries in the world with healthy and well-alive movie industries, the US and India. The US movies have world-wide appeal, while most Indian movies have restricted regional appeal, but play in immensely important role withiin the country.

The ideological trashing and hailing of European movies is based merely on the success and dominance of US movies worldwide. Let's face it, the Americans just make better movies, and German filmmakers if they want state of the art technology have to fly in experts from the US or produce partially in the US, that's how bad it is! That's not to say that European are less creative, it's merely that the creativity doesn't have a channel anymore.

[kainemaxwell]

If you think american developers are more creative, i got 3 words for you: the madden series LOL

Four words right back: The Street Fighter series.

-- Z.

Can you say "Mega Man" boys and girls?

[Ed Oscuro]

One thing I wish to correct, if indeed that's what it is -

Inafune didn't say a thing about deep gameplay

Now, we Japanese have to learn from how Americans make games, to make it more of a movie experience. [Emphasis mine]

Beyond that, yes, I'm very much in Lendelin's camp of thinking here for the most part. The comment "It's amazing to me how easily national borders are drawn for a medium like games which have a remarkably universal appeal..."

However, I would point out the finish of the sentence -


(like music, and unlike literature). That's one of the strenghths of games, despite cultural differences.
While visual works such as games are more readily understood than translated literature, it's true that there is a cultural barrier for BOTH games and literature. Literature also tends to deal with issues which can be boiled down into the more classic themes of love, politics, war, technology and culture; its range is much wider - unlimited, in fact, since a computer/video game has certain expectations of construction and performance it must meet to actually be usable to a player. Books may be terribly written, but it's hard to mess them up completely. That said, we aren't talking about buggy games, we're talking about games vs. literature in general - and I feel that comparing the two isn't quite fair since games as we think of them are quite restricted by design. Games tend to have rigorous systems ensuring that effects have causes by design or user input; literature usually does not.

Literature can discuss three, two, one, or ZERO dimensional worlds (one and zero dimensions indicate an infinite line and a point, respectively), so right there we have a case where games simply must not break expected rules of design.


Nah, there is no big difference between Japanese and American games overall, only subtle nuances when it comes to niche markets;
I agree with this, but I must define it in my own fashion.

Japanese and American games both *do* the same things. Cel shading, bump mapping, Golden Age comic book art style vs. "anime" - these are HUGE differences, but in the grand scale of things very small. Both Japanese and American developers tend to focus on games where you control a single "unit," (or sending about individual units singly or in groups, as in an RTS), and that unit (or units) tends to be something mobile (even the two-way Joystick on my Stratovox machine allows the rocket launcher at the bottom to move around); it can do things or project influence within its world space (would you call the Game of Life a game after the point where you hit the "Go" button?), and of course there are (once again) expectations on the look of that world.

I'm fairly sure most of that is pretty obtuse and my writing style shot to pieces, but I expect and hope some of my points will shine through anyways.

[Aussie2B]

For all of you who drew these carricature of American games, how do you explain that the Japanese game market is in a serious condition and the American market is not?

Are these Japanese gamers just plain dumb not to recognize the wonderful creative games they get offered?

You're ignoring the fact that the Japanese economy is in a huge slump right now and that is a MAJOR factor in why the game industry there isn't doing as well as in the past. It's been reported that many gamers say they haven't been buying as many games because they can't AFFORD them. Not to mention games and music cost A LOT more there than in the US. A music CD will usually set you back the equivalent of 20-30 dollars, and a brand new PS2 game will usually be around 70 bucks.


Are these Japanese gamers just plain dumb not to recognize the wonderful creative games they get offered?It's about something which burns on our nails in Europe, USA, Canada, and Japan. It's about the change in style for games. Super Mario seems outdated and doesn't sell as well in the US AND Japan (SM Sunshine had disappointing sales figures in Japan). The new upcoming Zelda features a more "adult" Link with probably (!) more realistic violence, and these so-called wonderful Japanese developers who supposedly search for the holy grail of innocent, creative gameplay of the past gave us "splashy-flashy" games like Devil May Cry, Onimusha, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy X, etc.

C'mon, you KNOW that the violence in those kinds of games is TOTALLY different than in the typical violent American game. The blood and gore may be the same, but the themes are entirely different. Violent Japanese games tend to have a very mature, moody, dark fantasy theme in which you kill zombies, demons, monsters, etc. In American games, it's usually a much more realistic situation, such as a recreation of a real war or games in which you play a cop or a bad guy and you go around killing the other. You're not gonna see a Japanese game where you play Snoop Dogg and shoot at gang members, prostitutes, and mafia people anytime soon. :/

[lendelin]

One thing I wish to correct, if indeed that's what it is -

Inafune didn't say a thing about deep gameplay

Now, we Japanese have to learn from how Americans make games, to make it more of a movie experience. [Emphasis mine]


He talked about "style" and "movie experiences," not a change in basic gameplay, and I interpret it as perspectives during gameplay, mood settings by graphics, surprise effects by cahnging players perspectives, etc. which resemble movies. Same basic gameplay as before presented in a presumably more attarctive different style.


Beyond that, yes, I'm very much in Lendelin's camp of thinking here for the most part. The comment "It's amazing to me how easily national borders are drawn for a medium like games which have a remarkably universal appeal..."

However, I would point out the finish of the sentence -

Quote:
(like music, and unlike literature). That's one of the strenghths of games, despite cultural differences.

While visual works such as games are more readily understood than translated literature, it's true that there is a cultural barrier for BOTH games and literature. Literature also tends to deal with issues which can be boiled down into the more classic themes of love, politics, war, technology and culture; its range is much wider - unlimited, in fact, since a computer/video game has certain expectations of construction and performance it must meet to actually be usable to a player. Books may be terribly written, but it's hard to mess them up completely. That said, we aren't talking about buggy games, we're talking about games vs. literature in general - and I feel that comparing the two isn't quite fair since games as we think of them are quite restricted by design. Games tend to have rigorous systems ensuring that effects have causes by design or user input; literature usually does not.

Literature can discuss three, two, one, or ZERO dimensional worlds (one and zero dimensions indicate an infinite line and a point, respectively), so right there we have a case where games simply must not break expected rules of design.


Literature is language centered, games are not. We can live with bad translations in RPGs as long as we understand what's going on; if you have bad translations for poems, novels, or dramas it means the demise of an author in a country.

I could give you a long list of authors who weren't successful in a country merely based on terrible translations. Writers who are immigrants and have to live in another country have a terrible fate usually, they depend on good translations (besides cultural differences in tastes).

Directors and actors? Much easier for them, sometimes it's good to have an accent. Comedy slapstick comedians? No problem becasue the joke is visual and universally understood or rejected. Comedy and satyre which depends on words? They share the same fate as novelists and poets. Jerry Lewis was always popular in Europe, but I can't imagine a Loriot (a German comedian and writer who heavily depends on subtle and ironic language style) to be popular in America.

I agree mostly with your notions about differences of games and literature (important for aspects to play and not merely watch or read a story in a game), but they don't affect the problem I addressed.

I just wanted to point out how easily some others drew strict national borders for a medium like games which not only have a universal appeal like music, but (most of them) are created with a worldwide audience in mind surpassing national borders

.

[lendelin]

For all of you who drew these carricature of American games, how do you explain that the Japanese game market is in a serious condition and the American market is not?

Are these Japanese gamers just plain dumb not to recognize the wonderful creative games they get offered?

You're ignoring the fact that the Japanese economy is in a huge slump right now and that is a MAJOR factor in why the game industry there isn't doing as well as in the past. It's been reported that many gamers say they haven't been buying as many games because they can't AFFORD them. Not to mention games and music cost A LOT more there than in the US. A music CD will usually set you back the equivalent of 20-30 dollars, and a brand new PS2 game will usually be around 70 bucks.



This is what I wrote in my first post:


If we assume that other factors for the bad sales figures like the misery index (inflation, GDP, unemployment rate) aren't so important (BIG assumption then we have to look indeed into game quality and the conformity/innovation of genres.


...besides, America experienced an economic slow-down in the last couple of years as well, and the game industry did well; and even if the economic situation in Japan influences game sales (which is a given and it would be dumb to assume otherwise) Japanese publishers have to ask themselves how the industry did in comparison to other economic branches under the same conditions; I don't know about changes of record sales, electronics, PCs, cars, houses, etc. in comparison to videogames, but Iassume from what I read that videogames are not on a high priority list for consumers anymore. They are probably more affected by the economic situation than other branches of the entertainment industry; and then the big question is why, and how can we get on top of the priority list again.

Inafune knows the game market in Japan better than both of us together, and he knows which kind of games sell well and which didn't, and he probably knows which games and genres were recycled to death without giving the player the feeling to experience something new.

As much as I like traditional style RPGs from Japan, (look up the PS1 games of my games below), as much as I like the set-ups and themes, every genre can be beaten to death and looses it's appeal if nothing new is offered. You reach a saturation level at some point. Traditional RPGs were always much more popular in Japan than in America, but maybe values, tastes change in a way so they seem outdated and are just not bought anymore.



C'mon, you KNOW that the violence in those kinds of games is TOTALLY different than in the typical violent American game. The blood and Capone may be the same, but the themes are entirely different. Violent Japanese games tend to have a very mature, moody, dark fantasy theme in which you kill zombies, demons, monsters, etc. In American games, it's usually a much more realistic situation, such as a recreation of a real war or games in which you play a cop or a bad guy and you go around killing the other. You're not gonna see a Japanese game where you play Snoop Dogg and shoot at gang members, prostitutes, and mafia people anytime soon. :/

I think that's beside the point of what I wrote and Inafune addressed. To go into the direction of "more (!) movie experiences" deosn't mean more realistic violent settings for games. (besides, the Japanese as well as the Germans as loosers of the war fighting on the "wrong" side of history with the accompanied simplistic pacifistic culture developed after WWII cannot easily offer realistic war themes; the victors can)

The issue behind Inafunes quote is not a national issue at all, it's a universal one for games. Tastes and preferences for games have changed in all countries, and that means the search for new styles (presenting the games in a new way). American developers picked up earlier of the new trend and developed it further, nothing more and nothing less.

Jak II is the way to go, not Super Mario Sunshine, if we like it or not. Final Fanatsy X is the way to go, not Tales of Symphonia. Broadening of themes and complex stories referring to current issues simply played is the way to go, not alone fantasy settings and mythological historical events hundreds of years in the past. The latter will always be there (thank goodness), but themes, settings, and styles have to expand.

We experience the change in game style as a reflection of value and attitude changes for some time now. Two years ago I heard two 12 year olds discussing a game purchase in a game store, and the one guy said "not Super Mario Sunshine, it's so cheesy." With Jak 2 now they won't have any problems with the "cheesy" factor or "cool" factor, if we like it or not. As long as the new style providesthe same and great gameplay (and Jak 2 does), I have nothing against new styles of games which always come and go.