A moral issue with eBay

[halbert]

OK, so I put my sealed Final Fantasy VII on eBay (link removed).

I tried to accurately describe it, but there was a small crack in the back of the jewel case which I failed to mention. It was in the back of my mind, but it didn't occur to me to include it in the auction, as almost all old sealed PSX games seem to be cracked in one way or another. Since it wasn't perfect, I listed it at about $40 less than what it usually goes for. It was obviously purchased, but on July 1, I got this email:


Hi, I recieved the game today. Where it was very well packaged I am quite unhappy with the condition of the game itself as you did not state that the case had a crack in it on the backside, and it was well packaged so do not think this happened during shipping(though always possible). Yes I am a collector which is why I paid so much for this item, but can not accept it in this condition and would like my money refunded on it. Please let me know how you want to proceed from here.

Now, I sent an email and said that I supposed I could accept it back, but after not receiving a response for about 24 hours, I had a change of heart and my DP friends agreed - A crack like that does not constitute a return. I am not a big eBay seller, and I cannot afford (YES, I could send the money back, but it's a big deal because I don't have a job) to allow returns for tiny things like this. I sent this email back:


Hello,

As I have not gotten a response yet, I thought about this situation
and talked to some other collectors I know. I listed this game for
$165 on the premise that it was imperfect. It is sealed, but it's been
around for 7 years and jewel cases aren't exactly steel. They tend to
crack on their own, eventually.

FFVII's which are said to be perfect often fetch upwards of $200 and I
take it that you are familiar with this trend, which is why you bought
mine. I described the game to the best of my ability and although it
was a mistake on my part by missing the crack, when it comes to eBay,
I have a policy of caveat emptor. It is the seller's obligation to
list an item to the best of his ability, but if the buyer requires an
absolutely flawless item, it is up to him to email the seller prior to
completing the transaction. In a retail setting with corporations, it
is a different story, but when it comes to eBay, and a seller who
cannot afford to placate every customer, compromises must be made. We
both understood that this game was not perfect, and I find it a bit
questionable that torn shrinkwrap is okay, while a small crack
completely invalidates the item.

I strive to make my buyers pleased with what they purchase, but in
this case I feel that I need to say that a return due to this crack
doesn't seem to be in order. I didn't try to deceive you, and I would
be happy to return to you 20% of your purchase price of $165. ($33)
While I understand you may not be completely happy with this, it's the
best I can offer. You will be able to place a higher markup on this
when you sell it and recoup whatever potential losses would have been
caused by the crack.

All I can do is hope that you will be willing to meet me halfway, but
I feel I have to lay down "my" law in the friendliest way possible. I
would never intentionally misrepresent an item or leave out any detail
that I feel is important, and will always take more pictures and
describe an item in further detail when asked to, but in this
situation I tend to ask the buyer to compromise as I don't think the
game has lost any value.

So I hope you will accept my offer, but once again my opinion, and
that of the (impartial) collectors I spoke to is that a return isn't
quite right. When it comes to feedback, I have so far maintained a
100% rating and realize I may lose it due to this transaction. If you
do not leave me poor feedback, I fully intend to leave you a Positive.
I don't expect a Positive, but I would appreciate either nothing or
even neutral if you feel it's necessary. I don't want to stick you
with the whole problem, but I am not a business and even though I wish
I could afford to refund every single buyer's money if they wanted,
that's not reality. In the future I am going to create some type of
fair policy, and clearly I will need to address what other people may
be concerned about when it comes to my items. What seems insignificant
to me may not be the same for others.

Once again, I apologize for the whole situation. There's a fine line
between being moral, and just being realistic, and I am walking right
on it, but there's nothing I can do to please everyone. Please email
me if you want the 20%.

Regards,
Aaron

Whatever happens, I feel that although I made a mistake, this guy is a little too picky. I find it very hard to believe that torn up shrinkwrap (which I described, plain as day) is OK but a small crack isn't. I have offered him 20% back (and obviously, he keeps the game), and since almost everything he buys on eBay goes straight to his eBay store, I'm only helping him with the markup.

So what do you think? I have 100% feedback so far and it's not in my interest to do any wrong to my customers, but in this case, I just don't think he should get to return this. I only allow returns if what I send is substantially different, i.e. I make a big mistake, or something breaks during shipping. The guy bought another sealed copy of the game for $185 shortly after sending me the first email, so this whole thing just sounds like he found a better copy and wants to change his mind.

Please, whoever you think is in the wrong, don't flame them! Not me, nor him. I'm not out to criticize the guy, I just want to know your opinion so I can make a new and improved return policy.

Thanks. :)

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

When jewel cases are almost literally a dime a dozen, even the completely clear ones, I file a small crack under the "non-issue" category. If he's a serious collector of disc-based games, he should have a small stack of empty jewel cases standing by for precisely this sort of thing. I'm not flaming him, or you, but cracks do happen in jewel cases (which is why I seldom keep my CDs in them), and it's an easy enough fix. Easy enough, in fact, that I probably wouldn't have offered a 20% refund - easier and cheaper to just send him an empty jewel case or two with a mile of styrofoam around it.

I have mail-ordered stuff from a small music label in the past that included 1 or 2 free empty jewel cases with each order - no loss for them really, because they're cheap enough, and it acknowledges and accounts for the fact that jewel cases are notoriously fickle creatures. Not a bad policy if you want to spring for a stack of empty cases.

[Darth Sensei]

Oops. Double post. See below.

D

[halbert]

When jewel cases are almost literally a dime a dozen, even the completely clear ones, I file a small crack under the "non-issue" category. If he's a serious collector of disc-based games, he should have a small stack of empty jewel cases standing by for precisely this sort of thing. I'm not flaming him, or you, but cracks do happen in jewel cases (which is why I seldom keep my CDs in them), and it's an easy enough fix. Easy enough, in fact, that I probably wouldn't have offered a 20% refund - easier and cheaper to just send him an empty jewel case or two with a mile of styrofoam around it.

I think the problem here is that it's a sealed copy... Go Fish. ;)

[Darth Sensei]

Well, first, what he intends to do with it after buying it from you is irrelevant. It has no bearing on whether or not you owe him a refund.

Second, in regard to a "factory sealed game" I wouldn't expect the case to be cracked either and if I spent this much on one, I'd be irritated.

Third, the wordy response you provided would indicate to me that deep down you feel he should get his refund. It seemed to me that you were trying to convince yourself as much as him that you're in the right.

If I were you, I'd have offered him the 20% or a complete refund if he wants it.

D

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

I've gotten factory-sealed CDs, both games and music, that had cracks in the jewel case. Return to my response above and repeat. :)

[SoulBlazer]

I never understand the fascination in sealed games. :roll:

In any case, he allready sold the game for a cheaper price then most sealed FF7's go for. I'd remind the buyer of that fact, apoligize for not mentioning the crack, and offer a 20 percent discount on their purchase price.

[Cmosfm]

Had the same thing happened with a NES game once, the guy that bought it claimed it had a small bend, a crease on the side, and some scratches on the back.

Things age, Jesus, I didn't notice these before I sent em (and still question if they are really there) but he didn't get any money back from me.

[halbert]

Well, first, what he intends to do with it after buying it from you is irrelevant. It has no bearing on whether or not you owe him a refund.

Second, in regard to a "factory sealed game" I wouldn't expect the case to be cracked either and if I spent this much on one, I'd be irritated.

Third, the wordy response you provided would indicate to me that deep down you feel he should get his refund. It seemed to me that you were trying to convince yourself as much as him that you're in the right.

If I were you, I'd have offered him the 20% or a complete refund if he wants it.

D

Firstly, I agree that what he's going to do with it shouldn't really influence my decision. I try to be neutral about that, but it's hard.

About my responses, I admit that I am not sure I'm right, otherwise I wouldn't have posted this thread.

I feel bad for the guy, but I just feel that this is pushing the boundaries of what's acceptable for a return. Like I said, if I was a little more well off I could be a lot more leniant, but since that's just not the case, sometimes I have to make decisions like this.. I hate it. :o

[TEXASGAMEPLAYER]

If it is factory sealed I would expect it to arrive in "mint" condition unless stated in auction. For this much money I think a full refund is in order if he is not happy with the game or if there is a material defect. I am a very picky collector and understand this guy's delima.

[halbert]

If it is factory sealed I would expect it to arrive in "mint" condition unless stated in auction. For this much money I think a full refund is in order if he is not happy with the game or if there is a material defect. I am a very picky collector and understand this guy's delima.

That was something I thought about too, except it was purchased with the understanding it wasn't mint (shrinkwrap was damaged) and for a low price. I said it was pretty nice, but that the shrinkwrap was starting to peel on the edges. The cracks were small when I sent it, and I packed it very well. Like I said they didn't seem too bad to me, just like thin lines in the case. Don't know if they could have been furtherly agravated by the Post Office. I got insurance on it, but even if this was the case, I doubt the P.O. would care.

[petewhitley]

You misrepresented the condition of the game when you stated that it's a "9/10" (see item link). You also mentioned the torn shrinkwrap, yet didn't mention the crack. If you're going to mention the torn corners, you imply that you're listing all faults with the sealed game, which in fact you didn't. There's not any legal issue here, you can keep the money if you so choose, but I believe that you clearly owe the guy a full refund (perhaps save your sellers fees). Collectors of sealed games clearly don't want cracks in the jewel-cases, however minor you and I might consider them.

[halbert]

He responded. Nicely. So I told him that if he wants to return it at his expense and wait for me to resell it on eBay, he can have a full refund. It seems fair to me. If he won't wait, then I'm cutting the pipeline. Reeling in the life preserver. You get it.

[Jorpho]

If nothing else, I'd be impressed that you sent such a long, carefully-worded, gramatically correct message that clearly stated your position. I wish eBay always worked like that.

[halbert]

If nothing else, I'd be impressed that you sent such a long, carefully-worded, gramatically correct message that clearly stated your position. I wish eBay always worked like that.

Thanks :D

He hasn't responded yet... -_-

[-hellvin-]

Fact is, he got this at a cheaper price than sealed ffvii's go for, and it is the BUYER'S duty to take 5 minutes to type up, "Is this item in absolutely mint condition, are there any cracks/ect on the game at all, Thanks". That's all you have to do. Anything else and you are assuming the condition of the game without facts and should have to deal with it for not taking 5 minutes to type up a question. Simple.

[halbert]

He did respond, and told me that I can either refund his money or face fraud charges. I am taking the high road because 1) I am above this and 2) I am not interested in dealing with any charges. Like any agency would take a crack in a jewel case seriously, anyway.

Ugh. I am removing the link in my original post because one of my own terms of his refund is that we will not disturb each other's business, and I intend to make good on my own promises.

All this because of a crack. Funny, in a way.

[WiseSalesman]

He did respond, and told me that I can either refund his money or face fraud charges.

Man, this guy went from picky to dick in 1.9 seconds, didn't he?

[Phosphor Dot Fossils]

And the moral of this story is: crack kills.

[stonic]

.....

[TEXASGAMEPLAYER]

I take issue with the qoute "it is the buyers duty to take the time to type ..."
I can not think of every defect to ask about :
Is the item faded from exposure to sun light?
Is the item water damaged?
Is the item cracked?
I would expect the item to be mint unless stated regardless of price. The final price has no bearing on the quality of an item in an auctions of this kind when the bidders don't know of a defect. Price is only an indicater of the desirability of the item at that perticular time, with those perticular bidders Another auction's final price does not nessarily reflect or determine the quality of an item in a different auction. I do believe that I WOULD send an email to ask why a game was listed as 9/10 if it was NEW and FACTORY SEALED if this is how it was listed though. And in closing I think the seller has been very patient and tried to be understanding of the buyer. I wish everbody could discuss things this rationally on ebay.

[Flack]

I kind of have to agree. Especially on an item that's being sold as a collectible, I think it's the seller's job to completely and accurately describe the item's true condition.

In the original post he said he saw the crack but didn't mention it. If it was big enough to notice, it was big enough to mention. As a buyer, that's how I'd feel about it.

[punkoffgirl]

I agree as well, especially if you're going to spend $100 or more on something from eBay, then it really IS up to you as a buyer to contact the seller to ask questions. It's only common sense if you want to protect your investment.

[captain nintendo]

If I am not mistaken at the time of listing the item Halbert did not notice the crack if I read it right. It wasnt until it was time to ship that he noticed the crack. I think it was an honest mistake. Should the buyer be mad ??? Maybe he should. But I do think Halbert has offered him 2 ways out of the sale and at least he is trying to correct the situation. I dont believe Halbert is being misleading or tried to lie. I do believe the buyer just expects perfection ....
Look at his other purchases and you will see what this guy buys.
He does however have very good feedback :o

[petewhitley]

Well, he asked for a full refund as he should have, and good on you for giving it to him. -hellvin- apparently doesn't know anything about selling or buying on eBay from his comments... x_x

[SoulBlazer]

Oh well -- relist it again on EBay, with more photos of it (including the back) and mention the slight crack this time, and I bet you can STILL get $125 for it. :)

[halbert]

Thanks for the encouragement. I guess I should have offered a full refund from the start. This is what I sent back to him:


First of all, there is absolutely no place for this type of behavior.
I do not appreciate your attempts to intimidate me, and will not
tolerate it. We were having a civil discussion. What happened to that?
I am curious to know how I insult you with my proposal. Because I am a
high school student does not mean I conduct in any shady dealings nor
am I going to respond to threats of filing fraud. I find it somewhat
hard to believe that eBay would take a "crack in a jewel case" too
seriously. In the future, perhaps you should not make these
assumptions if a crack devalues an item so much in your eyes. If I
threatened fraud against my customers for every tiny thing that was
wrong, I am sure no one would deal with me. I get items all the time
that are not as advertised, but I have chosen to live with it. Your
threats are very rude and unprofessional.

I did not purposely leave out information on this crack. I forgot it
while dealing with the shrinkwrap situation. You don't agree? You
think I purposely left it out? Sorry, I am not lying about it. I don't
lie. I find it almost insulting that you would think I would have to
resort to not mentioning a crack in order to make a few extra dollars.
I lowered the price due to the shrinkwrap. Not the crack. Had I again
noticed the crack while taking pictures I would have lowered it more,
and mentioned it in the auction, in fact. I am insulted that you would
say my email "implicates that [I] purposely tried to mislead any
potential buyer". I have dealt with dozens of people, between eBay and
other sites, and have plenty of happy customers. I may not have
hundreds and hundreds, but I have 50+ feedback comments and not a
single negative.

I am curious to know what the insurance situation has to do with this.
The crack was obviously not caused during shipping and it would indeed
be fraud for me to file for such a claim. Your tone indicates you
don't believe I actually insured it. Maybe I am reading you wrong, but
I have the receipt and will gladly provide a scan if you so desire.
After all, if you are reading your wife's email, you will clearly see
that upon my initiative, she asked me to include the insurance. Once
again, I'm not sure what bearing this has on our situation. It was
purchased in case the post office destroyed the package, which is
exactly what it is intended for.

There is obviously no point in continuing this silly exchange. I made
attempts to keep it civil, and apparently we are unable to have a
friendly transaction. If you send the game to me via Priority Mail
promptly packed just as well as you received it, and it is in EXACTLY
the condition I sent it, I will issue a refund. In addition, when the
item is relisted with all cracks etc documented (yes, AFTER your
refund is issued) you agree not to interfere with any of my business,
and I will not interfere with yours. NOR will you leave any feedback
for me. If any feedback is left for me, I will reciprocate. Otherwise
I will not leave any. Those are the conditions. All must be met or the
refund is off. This is my final offer.

No response yet. Woohoo. :eek 2:

[musical]

Here's my position:

As a seller I *inspect* the game and *describe* every flaw I can find. I am taking someone's money, and it's my duty to describe the item precisely:
Known Flaws:
- sealed but plastic wrap is torn
- never opened
If I fail to describe the item precisely (overlook the cracked plastic) then it's MY fault... and therefore MY loss.



I'd ask the buyer to return the game, and then I'd give the money back.

[halbert]

The guy still isn't responding. I'm emailing him and telling him he has 24 hours to respond and to agree if he wants his refund... x_x

[musical]

He's probably one of those guys who only uses his computer 1 or 2 times a week. Just be patient.

Besides if he disappears, you get to keep the money. ;)

[halbert]

He's probably one of those guys who only uses his computer 1 or 2 times a week. Just be patient.

Besides if he disappears, you get to keep the money. ;)

No, he spends several C notes a day on ebay and has done plenty of activity in the last day or two. I am annoyed because I don't have any money to spend on GAMES till this guy does something! You know what that does to a person LOL

[halbert]

Instead of responding, he reported me as an underage user to eBay. Too bad I "use eBay in conjuction with and under the supervision of my parents". I am a lawful user! Hallelaahauajajah! :D

Too bad he is getting nothing! x_x

[Funk Buddy]

Well, he asked for a full refund as he should have, and good on you for giving it to him.

A refund is one thing but bringing up fraud is BS.


Instead of responding, he reported me as an underage user to eBay. Too bad I "use eBay in conjuction with and under the supervision of my parents". I am a lawful user! Hallelaahauajajah! :D

Too bad he is getting nothing! x_x

Ok, you may be above stirring the muck... but some of us are not. What's the sellers ID?

Hope he didn't pay with PP, if so you could be screwed.

[halbert]

Well, he asked for a full refund as he should have, and good on you for giving it to him.

A refund is one thing but bringing up fraud is BS.


Instead of responding, he reported me as an underage user to eBay. Too bad I "use eBay in conjuction with and under the supervision of my parents". I am a lawful user! Hallelaahauajajah! :D

Too bad he is getting nothing! x_x

Ok, you may be above stirring the muck... but some of us are not. What's the sellers ID?

Hope he didn't pay with PP, if so you could be screwed.

Well, I originally said I wouldn't post his name since it was in my terms of a refund, but he didn't accept that! It's gothic_knights. Sorry bud, but you are a pain.

Why am I screwed with Paypal? Their protection policy protects against an item that is "substantially different than described" only, and a cracked jewel case isn't that. Do you think I should withdraw my $ tonight?

[Funk Buddy]

I would take the money out, that way all they can do is freeze your account. If it comes to that, just be sure to keep all the emails to show them how you tried to work it out.

[halbert]

OK, all money withdrawn.

BTW, by "Ok, you may be above stirring the muck... but some of us are not. What's the sellers ID?" I hope you didn't mean you want anybody to mess with the guy, that's really the last thing we need. I hope you just want to stay away from him.

[halbert]

Look at this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=62053&item=8117460964

That is SO not factory sealed. O_O And he complains about a crack? Incredible.

[petewhitley]

Look at this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=62053&item=8117460964

That is SO not factory sealed. O_O And he complains about a crack? Incredible.

It isn't? I'm no expert on shrinkwrap, but it looks sealed with wear. To his benefit, he posts pictures of each and every corner, to avoid the very situation you and him got into.

[halbert]

Look at this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=62053&item=8117460964

That is SO not factory sealed. O_O And he complains about a crack? Incredible.

It isn't? I'm no expert on shrinkwrap, but it looks sealed with wear. To his benefit, he posts pictures of each and every corner, to avoid the very situation you and him got into.

The bunched up shrinkwrap near the top of the box and the way the shrinkwrap is ripply suggests that it was poorly resealed with a machine capable of making the crease. If you will notice, I also posted pics of corners, but the crack was not on a corner. :)

Look at this: http://i6.ebayimg.com/02/i/02/1c/2d/2e_12_s.JPG

[musical]

Instead of responding, he reported me as an underage user to eBay. Too bad I "use eBay in conjuction with and under the supervision of my parents". I am a lawful user! Hallelaahauajajah! :D

Irrelevant. I'd still give him a refund because it was my fault for not listing the cracked case.

[Berserker]

I'm no expert on shrinkwrap either, but it took me about 12 seconds to have a look at what some other examples of factory sealed SNES games look like...

http://i19.ebayimg.com/02/i/02/10/c0/a0_1.JPG
http://i5.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/10/65/5c_1.JPG
http://home.wi.rr.com/wcmiker/dark1.JPG

...Your warning about this guy is duly noted. leave the negative, or whatever course of retaliation you plan on taking, and stop trying to scrutinize this guy as part of some sort of defamation warfare, or whatever, it's only serving to dilute your point. Which we got, nobody wants someone blowing up in their face over basically nothing. But I think if I ever sell any games online, I'll make sure to point out all the cracks.

[Griking]

What exactly did the buyer do to deserve a negative?

Here's what I understand from all this so far. You sold him an item which wasn't exactly as described. Sure you think that he's being overly pickly but he is a collecter. I'm sure that many of us understand why he's not happy. He paid quickly (I'll assume) and contacted you when he received it and found that it was damaged. He asked for a refund, you tried setting terms and time limits on the refund, he got annoyed and reported you to ebay.

I'd offer him the full refund he deserves immediately. Not once you resell the item, not only if he responds in 24hrs, immediately.
Then I'd leave him a poitive feedback apologising for giving him a hard time and hope that he doesn't leave you a negative for being difficult to deal with or for shipping an item that wasn't as described.

You said yourself that you weren't sure if you were right or wrong about this when you originally made your post. Others have since replied that you were in the wrong and should refund the guys money. Yet now you're withdrawing all of your money from Paypal and hiding it so that he cant even get it back from Paypal since you wouldn't do the right thing on your own. Who sounds like the scammer here?

Sorry if this sounds harsh but this list of events are taken directly from yourown posts so far.

[badinsults]

I agree. If cracks in the case are something that matters a lot to this guy, then you should refund the money to him. I personally wouldn't care about it, but then again, I would not pay over $100 for a sealed game. You failed, deal with it.

[fcfcfc]

I know I get upset when I get an item that wasn't like it was described, but I never have demanded a refund. I think that he should have his refund if he really seems to care that much about it, but threatening charges and reporting you as an underage user was kind of low in my opinion.

[halbert]

I appreciate the opinions of those who called me a scammer. Obviously I was out to send this guy a cracked game to make another $20. Thanks.

I did offer him a full refund, which you will notice if you read my posts. Yes, I attatched the condition that we will not leave each other feedback, but he chose to report me rather than take it. I offered him what he wanted, although somewhat later than perhaps I should have, but he didn't take it. After reporting me, there is NO way he is getting anything back, sorry. I don't know about you, but I DON'T like being threatened.

In the future I will obviously need to take greater care to list problems with my items.

"What exactly did the buyer do to deserve a negative?"

I'm not leaving him a negative unless he choses to do so to me first. And yes, I think he deserves it because despite what I may have done wrong, there was NO ROOM for his threats and rudeness. I'm not sure where you got this idea from.

And I am also not here to make enemies on this site. I started a thread asking for criticism/support of myself which is more than many people would do. Sure Griking, some people said I was in the wrong, but some people said I was right, too. There is more than one opinion, and this particular transaction was not black and white. I am not stupid and I am fully aware I messed up, but I did offer the guy what he wanted. Yes I put a time restriction, because he was not responding to my emails in a timely manner. He is reading my emails, but not responding. What was I supposed to do? He wasn't debating whether or not to take my offer, he decided he'd go a different route, and now he doesn't get anything!

I feel sorry for the guy too, but eBay is not the place to shop if you can't handle problems, and I am not Wal Mart. I don't have a 100% satisfaction guranteed policy for every little thing.

I "hid" the money? Yeah, I'm sure if any of you were in this situation, you'd just leave it there for the taking. :roll:

The point is, it's over now (YES, it is, don't even tell me I owe him anything) and I don't want to continue arguing with my fellow DPers. It's not good. :(

[musical]

In the future I will obviously need to take greater care to list problems with my items.

(1) You admit you made the mistake/your error for not describing the cracked case, but you're not going to give a refund. I Don't Understand That. I'm sure the buyer does not understand it either.

(2) The buyer threatened you, true, but I frankly think you deserved it for initially refusing to refund. YOU made the mistake. YOU owe the guy money. No ands, ifs, or buts.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8114956947

[halbert]

Thank you, everyone for your input. I have learned many lessons, but I obviously don't agree with a lot of you, that's just how things work. I can live with it. I hope no one here thinks less of me for it.

I think it's time to let the thread die now. :)

[Griking]

I'm sorry if I offended you, I really didn't mean to make it seem like you tried to deceive your buyer. It was the quickly withdrawing the money out of you Paypal account so that he couldn't get it back that turned me off.

I think that somethint that you said much earlier is really at the center of all this. You said that you weren't really a collector. If you were you'd understand how a collecter thinks and how when something is described as in excellent condition you expect everything to be in excellent condition. If instead of opening a game up and playing it you keep it sealed it becomes less of a game and more of an investment. And the return on that investment greatly depends on the condition of the item. I'm a collecter myself so I can see why he would be frustrated when he received the game with a cracked case.

[SoulBlazer]

Well, I understand not wanting to give a refund until you get your item back.

Let us know how this turns out, please.

[Gothic_knights]

Hello everyone, I apologize now for the length of post this will become as I have a bit of catching up to do, and thank the person that sent me the link to this. Since the originator of this post wishes to post emails then let me post them including my own. This one is from me.



Hi, well then I would say you have a delimna as I can not in good faith
> > send you an item, and allow you to relist it before a refund has been given
> > as until a refund is given technically the item is still owned by me.
> > Whether or not you are a high school student I must say means naught to me
> > as you have still recieved my money and I am still not content with the
> > resolution you have come up with.


Whether or not someone is a minor or not has nothing to do with responsibility and their obligation to list as accurately as possible the item for sale.



With your acknowledgement, as recieved in your last post, that you knew this item was damaged and reduced the price because of this and did not think it was neccessary to list as such implicates that you purposely tried to mislead any potential buyer. So as I see it, and hate to be so abrupt, you have 2 options in this matter with the first being a full refund(I will
concede shipping cost) or I can file this with the appropriate parties as fraud.


Call this a threat if you think it appropriate, but I do not as I said I would take a refund minus the shipping cost, and if a refund is not made available then I would have to file fraud on it as that would be the only recourse left. Yes he did offer only after this email a refund, but it was conditional that no feedback was to be left for him.



If you send the game to me via Priority Mail
promptly packed just as well as you received it, and it is in EXACTLY
the condition I sent it, I will issue a refund. In addition, when the item is relisted with all cracks etc documented (yes, AFTER your
refund is issued) you agree not to interfere with any of my business, and I will not interfere with yours. NOR will you leave any feedback for me. If any feedback is left for me, I will reciprocate. Otherwise I will not leave any. Those are the conditions. All must be met or the
refund is off. This is my final offer.


This last part is what I can not agree to. Ebay is setup the way it is to allow for feedback to help describe a persons transaction with another. I will not be threatened with negative feedback for leaving truthful information that might be helpful to others in any possible future dealings with this individual. Ebay is built around this system. Here is my first email to him from his initial response of a discount.


> > Hi Aaron, sorry to be just now responding but I have been extremely busy
with work. First let me comment on the condition of the game itself and your
responses from "other collectors". The game is still sealed even with a
bit of wear on the corners of the shrink wrap, but the item is damaged. So let's use an example for you. Let's say you go to buy a new car and it has 20 miles on it from being test drove, it is still a new car correct? Now let's assume that you buy this car then find out that something on it is broken when it was not obvious when it was purchased. Would you still want the car in that condition even
though it is still new? Well not if they didn't atleast fix that item on it you wouldn't. Now let's say they could not fix this item on it but it does
not deter from the ability to drive the car, how do you think you would respond when the car is still new but has a cosmetic problem with it that does not affect its performance?? The cars value would be greatly depreciated wouldn't it, and could you put a value to that? That is what you are asking of me on this game. Yes you did state the
game as factory sealed with a bit of wear on the corners, but nowhere did it state that the games case was damaged/cracked. How do you determine its value now? Is there a guide that states well if the game is still sealed but the case is cracked it is worth X amount? That is why I felt a refund
was the best possible solution as I may still have a sealed game at a discounted rate, but exactly what is its real worth now as there is nothing that can be used to judge this. Now you also seem to be worried about feedback left for you and your perfect feedback score to date. Well, yes I have left negative feedback for
those that sent items not as described, but then I have also left positive for
the same when they were willing to fix the problem and if unable then they refunded the money apon the items return. So do not be worried about
feedback as much as you should be about fixing the problem itself. A
persons feedback from me is not measured on the damaged item recieved, but the honesty and willingness to resolve problems/complaints efficient and effectively that are within acceptable means for both.

Thanks,



Feel free to speak with the seller from http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19115&item=5904004826 this item was recieved and it was fake. Yet positive feedback was left because it was handled in a professional manner and refunded, without petty stipulations, apon receipt of the item back.

So yes, I am a collector and also a power seller on Ebay, but I am also honest and willing to work through problems as long as the other party is. Take from this what you want, but do not make attacks at my auctions accusing me of selling resealed games that are listed as factory sealed without proof of such.

Gothic_knights

[SoulBlazer]

Welcome to the forums, Gothic_knights. I hope that, as a collector, that you consider staying here and joining in with some of our other discussions going on in others areas of the DP site. It would be a shame for someone to come here just for this one mess. :)

I agree that you are upset about this, but I don't honestly think that halbert was trying to decieve you on purpose. Like me, he's not a collector -- and we just forget 'small' things like that sometimes in our auctions. (It's happened to me as well). Really, it just seems this whole thing has gotten out of hand.

Is it possible for both of you to apoligize, he issue the full refund, you return the game, and no feedback is left by either person?

[halbert]

I have thought about this situation a LOT. I don't ever want to have it arise again, and my policy on eBay will have to be a very liberal one, where the buyer decides if the item is acceptable, if I want to avoid it.

I'm not caving in to this individual's threats, which I feel are very misplaced, but I will have to extend this policy. Deep down, I feel that I should have offered the refund all along. I don't think my offer was so unfair regarding feedback, but I didn't think a crack was a big deal either.

So here's how it is. I will pay shipping costs for Gothic_knights to send the item back, and refund the $165.00 in full. I will accept any feedback that I get, and I will leave absolutely none regardless.

However, please note this can not be completed until the Paypal complaint is resolved (I initially disputed it, but I will concede that I am in the wrong) because I cannot use my account until then.

If you are reasonable, then it seems to me that you will allow me to refund your money.

In addition, I apologize for the comments regarding the Final Fantasy II, they were bitter and unfounded.

Gothic_knights, I see I am in the wrong, and for that I apologize truly. Please allow me to make things right for you.

[petewhitley]

I think you've made the right decision here halbert. :)

[captain nintendo]

Hello everyone, I apologize now for the length of post this will become as I have a bit of catching up to do, and thank the person that sent me the link to this. Since the originator of this post wishes to post emails then let me post them including my own. This one is from me.



Gothic_knights


I am glad the 2 of you can resolve this issue. I suppose it is none of my business , but since he is giving a full refund maybe at worst you could leave a neutral feedback instead of a negative if that was the route you were going to choose.

I dont suppose you would let us know the name of the person who did show you this thread ?

And finally if you are a collector maybe you could stick around digitpress.
Its a great community of game collectors , but also offers so much more.


- Captain Nintendo

[suppafly]

I think it was a honest error from the seller, but he shouldve offered refund immediately.

Thats why i sold a sealed game recently, and mentioned in the auction "WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET".

[wcmiker]

I'm no expert on shrinkwrap either, but it took me about 12 seconds to have a look at what some other examples of factory sealed SNES games look like...

http://home.wi.rr.com/wcmiker/dark1.JPG


Hey, I wonder whose game that is. ;)

[Dreamscape]

I dont suppose you would let us know the name of the person who did show you this thread ?





I bet it was Brinn

[kevincure]

I'm glad everything has been resolved successfully. A note for future sellers, especially sellers selling any game of value: you have an obligation to provide complete information about any flaws in your game. When you're selling a $165 game, it's even more important.

Not only that, but it's better for you - games with actual pictures and complete descriptions sell for more than the garbage Stock Photo, poor description, pawn shop garbage that's all over ebay.

[Gothic_knights]

Just wanted to throw out some info to those that don't understand a collectors mentality and for those selling games/items that are collectables. Anytime you are selling a Sealed game that is out of print, you are not selling to the average player.

No one buys older sealed games for large sums just to turn around and open them to play when they can get a used one for that purpose much cheaper. It will be a collector or someone looking to use as an investment that wins it. That is why conditions of items are very important to us even on used ones.

Why are conditions of games even posted if not for collectors? Shouldn't it just say "hey this game works just fine and the manual is still legible" and leave it at that? Not if someone wants to attract the attention of a Collector and try to get more out of the game.

That is exactly what it's about is trying to get the most possible money from the item, which for other than collectors, not many will pay. When someone list a game NM or Mint it needs to be just that, because I can gaurantee you that person getting it is going to expect it to be like new.

Also on a lighter note, yes I think we are working in the right direction now and should have our issue resolved soon. As far as who gave me the link, umm well I am going to have to refrain from that one. I wont be breaking any records for posting but I will stick around and poke in a few lines here and there.

Gothic_knights

[Berserker]

If it IS brinn, it's ok to say so. consider it a "Medical Matter":

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=361522#361522

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=364394#364394

although seemingly noble in intentions, read the last few pages of locked posts to really get an idea of where this guy is coming from....

hopefully he won't post here and this topic doesn't get locked. it's good you guys are working your way towards a solution to this.

[halbert]

Yes, we have taken care of the situation and everything seems to be as OK as it can be. :)

As far as the collecting issue, I am not a hardcore collector. I mostly have RPG's but the Final Fantasy was the first sealed game I ever found (well, of any value) so I didn't really think about the crack, but I shouldn't have given Gothic knights a problem about it. If I ever find any more sealed games I will be sure to write about cracks. :eek 2:

[SegaAges]

Is this the GH version or regular version?

I can get the GH version sealed for $15 at my local Blockbuster. Same with 8 and 9.

[captain nintendo]

Non GH versions. See link at page 1 of this thread ;)

Everybody can find Sealed GH versions of these games :P

[musical]

I didn't think a crack was a big deal either.


Ultimately it's up to the CUSTOMER to decide what is or is not "a big deal", because it's their money. They are paying for a product, and have certain expectations. If those expectations are not met, the customer certainly has the right to request a refund.

You should have described the crack in your listing. Since you did not, the error is yours & the loss is yours.

[captain nintendo]

I dont suppose you would let us know the name of the person who did show you this thread ?





I bet it was Brinn

I was thinking that as well. But I thought I might ask to be sure.
The last 2 or 3 ebay sellers that have been directed to the forums have not said who it was. :roll: But anybody can add 2 + 2 and figure it out.

[punkoffgirl]

As far as who gave me the link, umm well I am going to have to refrain from that one.


Why?

[halbert]

I didn't think a crack was a big deal either.


Ultimately it's up to the CUSTOMER to decide what is or is not "a big deal", because it's their money. They are paying for a product, and have certain expectations. If those expectations are not met, the customer certainly has the right to request a refund.

You should have described the crack in your listing. Since you did not, the error is yours & the loss is yours.

Have we not been over this, well, through the entire thread? :o The problem is solved, no more scolding is necessary.