Saturn=most powerfull 2D console? NAH!

[Zubiac666]

I read it here nearly every day as well as in other forums(and I'm getting a bit sick of it):
The Saturn kicks all other consoles asses when it comes to 2D!!
Some even claim that it is more powerfull(2D wise) than the dreamcast!

let me just say: NO it isn't
Why is the "most powerfull" 2D console NOT able to display a perfect port of a 16bit NeoGeo game.
You might think the right thing: It's because the lack of RAM
yeah there is a RAM upgrade but even then it's not the "most powerfull 2D console ever".
Saturn+great CPUs for displaying 2D+not enough RAM=good 2D console but not "perfect"

just wanted to say this.
thanx for your attention
-_-

[anagrama]

OK, it's the second-best 2D console ever (after the Neo). Happy with that?

[sisko]

Because they are ports.

Ports are seldom perfect.

[RCM]

Zubiac666 wrote


I read it here nearly every day as well as in other forums(and I'm getting a bit sick of it):
The Saturn kicks all other consoles asses when it comes to 2D!!
Some even claim that it is more powerfull(2D wise) than the dreamcast!

let me just say: NO it isn't
Why is the "most powerfull" 2D console NOT able to display a perfect port of a 16bit NeoGeo game.
You might think the right thing: It's because the lack of RAM
yeah there is a RAM upgrade but even then it's not the "most powerfull 2D console ever".
Saturn+great CPUs for displaying 2D+not enough RAM=good 2D console but not "perfect"

just wanted to say this.
thanx for your attention

I agree with you that the Saturn is not the most powerful 2D machine. It's clear that the Dreamcast and every home console after it can do wonderful 2D.

You might be taking the statement wrong, but in my eyes and many others eyes it's true, the Saturn does kick a lot of other machines asses when it comes to 2D. Not from a tech standpoint, but from quality software.

Just because Saturn doesn't have perfect Neo Geo ports doesn't mean it can't handle it per se. Maybe SNK just couldn't get a hang of developing for Saturn or didn't want to put in the extra money to make the ports perfect. Just a thought.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[Zubiac666]

OK, it's the second-best 2D console ever (after the Neo). Happy with that?

uhm no
it's third or fourth
:smash:

[omnedon]

I've played a lot of consoles before I got my Neo, and the thread starter seems to be correct.

Only the newest generation (DC, Xbox, PS2, NGC) seems to be able to deliver the raw 2D power that the Neo can. The PS1 and Saturn are hobbled by load times, and far too small amounts of RAM. The result is heavily compressed audio, and many missing frames of animation.

The Neo is a one trick pony, with tons of raw 2D power (I define power as colours, numbers of moving sprites on screen, massive screen filling sprites, and total scene scaling), but it can't do 3D at all. It can simulate 3D sprites, by using hi res sprites, with many frames of animation. That is the old fashioned way to fake 3D, with 2D brute force.

I love my Saturn, but only the Neo can do what the Neo does.

[anagrama]

uhm no
it's third or fourth


After what? You're making statements here without backing them up.
And going by your 'Neo-ports-aren't-as-good-as-the-originals-thus-the-machine-isn't-as-good' logic, why is the Saturn version of SFA3 better than the DC one?

[bargora]

I see that you are living up to your member title, Zubiac.

You have overlooked one crucial factor, however. By taking the cube root of the Dodonpachi and multiplying it by "e" raised to the power of Battle Garegga, it is plain to see that the Saturn is the most "powerfully ausum" console.

Class is dismissed.

[Querjek]

I think the Xbox has the best 2D for a home console... but, then again, I am basing that on playing Metal Slug 3.

[Bratwurst]

Class is dismissed.

DAMN SON YOU BEEN SCHOOLED

[Mr. Smashy]

I think the Xbox has the best 2D for a home console... but, then again, I am basing that on playing Metal Slug 3.

That's pretty funny.

I think that the Saturn was the best 2D console at its time of release in terms of how it could process or manipulate 2D images and different visual effects. It was also pretty good in terms of color and resolution.

Of course, with the comparatively limited 2D feature set of the Neo Geo, the Neo Geo is still an amazing system platform and having its games still being ported to systems like the Xbox and PS2 is a testament to how ahead of its time the Neo Geo really was when it was first released.

[NoahsMyBro]

Have you all forgotten the much-maligned, but still fantastic at 2D, Jaguar?

[digitalpress]

I think the Xbox has the best 2D for a home console... but, then again, I am basing that on playing Metal Slug 3.

I'm pretty sure you're joking.

You're joking, right? Because I know that you know that Metal Slug 3 runs better on its native console (Neo Geo), and without load times.

Kinda funny I guess.

Anyway, I don't think the Saturn is the best 2D machine ever either. In fact, I don't know anyone who thinks that. I think I'll start a thread "THE FAIRCHILD CHANNEL F IS *NOT* THE BEST GAME SYSTEM EVAR" next.

:P

[RCM]

Mr. Smashy wrote:

Of course, with the comparatively limited 2D feature set of the Neo Geo, the Neo Geo is still an amazing system platform and having its games still being ported to systems like the Xbox and PS2 is a testament to how ahead of its time the Neo Geo really was when it was first released.

I don't get that statement about the Neo Geo being so ahead of its time. Pong is on the Dreamcast, does that mean Pong is so ahead of its time? Care to explain your statement?

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[Anexanhume]

Why is the "most powerfull" 2D console NOT able to display a perfect port of a 16bit NeoGeo game.


The console is 24 bit, right?

[Richter]

OK, it's the second-best 2D console ever (after the Neo). Happy with that?

uhm no
it's third or fourth
:smash:its an opinion, it ranks whenever people want it to

[MegaDrive20XX]

I read it here nearly every day as well as in other forums(and I'm getting a bit sick of it):
The Saturn kicks all other consoles asses when it comes to 2D!!
Some even claim that it is more powerfull(2D wise) than the dreamcast!

let me just say: NO it isn't
Why is the "most powerfull" 2D console NOT able to display a perfect port of a 16bit NeoGeo game.
You might think the right thing: It's because the lack of RAM
yeah there is a RAM upgrade but even then it's not the "most powerfull 2D console ever".
Saturn+great CPUs for displaying 2D+not enough RAM=good 2D console but not "perfect"

just wanted to say this.
thanx for your attention
-_-

Ok aside from the SNK, explain this.

Why is SF Zero 3 better in quality of animation on Saturn then Dreamcast?

I do admit that the Neo Ports are half-assed. Even Samurai Shodown 3 looks and loads horribly.

Yet in my humble opinion, the Dreamcast was superior because of two games...Street Fighter 3: Third Strike and Garou: Mark of the Wolves (Many argue about the Garou port, but it's still good)

Reason why Saturn reigns as 2D king, was because of the tons of shooters that exist on the system alone. Plus the Capcom ports as well.

It was well supported in Japan.

Yet Xbox has wonderful 2D abilities. CVS2 and Metal Slug 3 are the greatest, but we will see this fall how it all adds up when Guilty Gear, SF Anniversary Collection, and SVC Chaos shows up.

I still say it's too early to tell who is the true 2D king, when Xbox is just getting warmed up

[Daria]

I read it here nearly every day as well as in other forums(and I'm getting a bit sick of it):
The Saturn kicks all other consoles asses when it comes to 2D!!
Some even claim that it is more powerfull(2D wise) than the dreamcast!

let me just say: NO it isn't
Why is the "most powerfull" 2D console NOT able to display a perfect port of a 16bit NeoGeo game.
You might think the right thing: It's because the lack of RAM
yeah there is a RAM upgrade but even then it's not the "most powerfull 2D console ever".
Saturn+great CPUs for displaying 2D+not enough RAM=good 2D console but not "perfect"

just wanted to say this.
thanx for your attention
-_-

Only problem with this argument is that the Dreamcast was a 3D machine... certainly it could render 2D and render it very well, but it was designed with 3D gaming in mind.

Saturn was the most powerful 2D machine originally geared for 2D games.

PSX had the best exacution of 2D however. I would seriously love to a see a 2d game that's better looking then Valkyrie Profile. (Erm... Arcade games aside)

[Querjek]

I think the Xbox has the best 2D for a home console... but, then again, I am basing that on playing Metal Slug 3.

I'm pretty sure you're joking.

You're joking, right? Because I know that you know that Metal Slug 3 runs better on its native console (Neo Geo), and without load times.

Kinda funny I guess.

:P
I think I should have added "That's the only Metal Slug I've ever played" to that :embarrassed:

[Mr. Smashy]

I don't get that statement about the Neo Geo being so ahead of its time. Pong is on the Dreamcast, does that mean Pong is so ahead of its time? Care to explain your statement?

According to www.Neo-Geo.com, the Neo Geo was released some time in 1990. Keep in mind that at the time, the Genesis was still a new system and the Super NES hasn't even been released yet. Being that it was only recently decided that it's no longer a financially viable platform for which to develop games and that some of the newer games are being ported to systems like the PS2 and the Xbox, I'd say that's grounds enough to be declared as "ahead of it's time".

I don't know why you're bringing Pong into the picture because that's software (when talking about the Dreamcast version). I'm talking about hardware here.

[RCM]

Mr Smashy Wrote:

According to www.Neo-Geo.com, the Neo Geo was released some time in 1990. Keep in mind that at the time, the Genesis was still a new system and the Super NES hasn't even been released yet. Being that it was only recently decided that it's no longer a financially viable platform for which to develop games and that some of the newer games are being ported to systems like the PS2 and the Xbox, I'd say that's grounds enough to be declared as "ahead of it's time".

I don't know why you're bringing Pong into the picture because that's software (when talking about the Dreamcast version). I'm talking about hardware here.

I didn't know what you were talking about. Now that I have a better idea I dont know that I agree. There have been titles developed for Neo Geo That were ported to Genesis, SNES, 3DO, Saturn, to name a few. Does that still qualify the Neo Geo hardware as being ahead of its time?

I mentioned Pong being on the DC because it should qualify as being ahead of its time b/c it was on the DC if i go by what i think your rule is. I know, you were talking about hardware.

Calling Neo Geo ahead of its time is not right in my opinion. It was a great system for its time. Just b/c a system is financially viable for years beyond the console 5 year cycle doesn't mean it is ahead of its time. What about the Neo Geo hardware itself is so ahead of its time? It was a 2D monster at a time when 2D ruled. I don't get the whole "ahead of its time thing." Further more, i think you are absolutely talking about software and not hardware. Don't be offended, but I think you should go back and rethink your statements.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[Bratwurst]

A 700 dollar price point at launch? Home console hardware that's the exact same as the arcade units were? Sounds ahead of schedule in both concept and market viability to me.

[Mr. Smashy]

I didn't know what you were talking about. Now that I have a better idea I dont know that I agree. There have been titles developed for Neo Geo That were ported to Genesis, SNES, 3DO, Saturn, to name a few. Does that still qualify the Neo Geo hardware as being ahead of its time?

Again, you're talking about software. On top of that, based on your comments here, I can only assume that you know very little about the Neo Geo.


I mentioned Pong being on the DC because it should qualify as being ahead of its time b/c it was on the DC if i go by what i think your rule is. I know, you were talking about hardware.

This doesn't make any sense either since Pong was originally released in the mid '70s. I'll also assume that you're talking about some sort of unofficial Dreamcast version of Pong because I can't find any record of an official version other than the one that appears on the Atari Anniversary Collection (which is a retro compilation).


Calling Neo Geo ahead of its time is not right in my opinion. It was a great system for its time. Just b/c a system is financially viable for years beyond the console 5 year cycle doesn't mean it is ahead of its time. What about the Neo Geo hardware itself is so ahead of its time? It was a 2D monster at a time when 2D ruled. I don't get the whole "ahead of its time thing." Further more, i think you are absolutely talking about software and not hardware. Don't be offended, but I think you should go back and rethink your statements.

If this is all just a semantic argument, feel free to take a poll. Please note that you're the only person expressing disagreement at the moment. Thanks for coming out, though. :)

[Richter]

Why is SF Zero 3 better in quality of animation on Saturn then Dreamcast?cause the Saturn version is an arcade port, whereas the DC version is a port of the PSX version

>.> <.<

[Lemmy Kilmister]

[/quote]The console is 24 bit, right?[/quote]

Well it is still a 16-bit system (arcade board). Though it (mvs/aes) has two cpu's ones 16-bit and the others 8-bit.

Oh and Daria how about princess crown?

[evilmess]

MAME is teh powerful most 2D console! :P

This generation I'd give the 2D crown to the PS2 simply because it's backwards compatible. Therefore you have many great 2D games from the PS1 library not to mention a few sweet titles in PS2's library.

Now the Neo Geo is a unique and wonderful console since it spans multiple generations but to knock the 2D power of the Saturn is ludicrous!

Neo Geo ports be damned they are best on the NG, no doubt about it but the Saturn can hold its own in 2D quality and goes above and beyond in it's multi-genre library. From Racing to RPG and Fighting to Shooties the Saturn has a great library at prices that are much more accessible than the NG.

If you're into 2D gaming then you owe it to yourself to get a Saturn and if you have the finances then you should also get a Neo Geo.

[MegaDrive20XX]

Why is SF Zero 3 better in quality of animation on Saturn then Dreamcast?cause the Saturn version is an arcade port, whereas the DC version is a port of the PSX version

>.> <.<

Ding ding ding!

YOU ARE DA WINNAR!

Thank you for pointing out the truth!

[Dreamscape]

Some people call the Sega Saturn the ultimate 2D machine because so many great 2D games came out for the system. They not only played well, but they looked very good. Yes, the PS1, PS2, DC, XBOX,and DC all have 2D games, but lets face it, they were all designed to be 3D game systems, Sega wanted the Saturn to be the ultimate 2D machine that had limited 3D capabilities for games like VF. The Neo Geo is a powerfull machine, but I would still call the SS the ultimate 2D games machine because of the variety of games that came out for the system. The games looked good, they played good, and there was a good variety. The Neo Geo mostly had fighting games. The Jaguar might have been a contendor if there were enough good games and games that utilized it's full power. Games like Ryman come to mind. The Jag had a lot of power when it came to 2D, but most of the games were crap, and there were not enough games for the system. The PC-FX is onther system that had awesome 2D powers, but there just was not enough variety to the games. Mostly it is a mater of opinion. To me the Sega Saturn is the ultimate 2D games machine, that is my opinion. Some might consider the Neo Geo the ultimate 2D machine. Some might constider the SNES the ultimate 2D machine. It all comes down to a matter of opinion.

[Lemmy Kilmister]

One reason i can think that people would call the saturn the best 2d system ever is the fact that it can basically become a almost perfect cpsII or mvs board with the added ram cart. Yes maybe the neo geo is better at 2d and yes it doesn't have loading times. Though the games are also a hella lot more. Even playing an mvs game with a phantom-1 convertor is going to cost more then the typical saturn title. Look at x-man vs street. That game was for the most part arcade perfect and was about 80 bucks around release. How much are the newest aes/mvs fighting titles when they are release? 250-500 buck? Thats quite a differents.

[Daria]

Oh and Daria how about princess crown?

Never played it, but I'll check it out. (:


Yes, the PS1, PS2, DC, XBOX,and DC all have 2D games, but lets face it, they were all designed to be 3D game systems,

Actualy, like the Saturn the PSX was a 2D system tht really pushed it's 3D capabilities.

[RCM]

Mr. Smashy wrote:


Again, you're talking about software. On top of that, based on your comments here, I can only assume that you know very little about the Neo Geo.

To assume makes an ass of u and me. Get it? I know a bit about the Neo Geo.


This doesn't make any sense either since Pong was originally released in the mid '70s. I'll also assume that you're talking about some sort of unofficial Dreamcast version of Pong because I can't find any record of an official version other than the one that appears on the Atari Anniversary Collection (which is a retro compilation).

You're right, i am referring the to the Pong released on the Atari Anniversary disc. Is Pong disqualified because it was released in a compilation? If so, would Metal Slug 4 & 5 (combo pack) be disqualified as well? If the Neo Geo is ahead of its time because Metal Slug 3 is on the Xbox then Pong (and whatever arcade board runs it) is ahead of its time because of it appears on the Dreamcast as long as it's not disqualified for being on a comp. Make sense? I don't think it does, but Im drawing this conclusion based on your logic.


If this is all just a semantic argument, feel free to take a poll. Please note that you're the only person expressing disagreement at the moment. Thanks for coming out, though.

Who is arguing here? Let's go back to your original post


the Neo Geo is still an amazing system platform and having its games still being ported to systems like the Xbox and PS2 is a testament to how ahead of its time the Neo Geo really was when it was first released.

In this context how is the Neo Geo ahead of its time? You made a bold statement, I just wanted to know what you meant. You responded:


According to www.Neo-Geo.com, the Neo Geo was released some time in 1990. Keep in mind that at the time, the Genesis was still a new system and the Super NES hasn't even been released yet. Being that it was only recently decided that it's no longer a financially viable platform for which to develop games and that some of the newer games are being ported to systems like the PS2 and the Xbox, I'd say that's grounds enough to be declared as "ahead of it's time".

So because it was financially viable in your opinion that means its was ahead of its time? I don't buy it. And furthermore, how financially viable was the Neo Geo anyway? If memory serves me correct, SNK closed their doors for a couple years didn't they? you still havent offered me any compelling evidence as to why the Neo Geo was ahead of its time.

One point brought up by Bratwurst was:


A 700 dollar price point at launch? Home console hardware that's the exact same as the arcade units were? Sounds ahead of schedule in both concept and market viability to me.

There were consoles and arcade systems that shared the same chipset before Neo Geo. The NES, as the Nintendo Playchoice is 1 example. Have you played Super Mario Bros. in the arcades? What a blast. It's been done before.

Anyway, I love Neo Geo, I play Neo Geo! I guess a discussion like this, not argument, is done best in person and not on a message board. No, that's not an invitation to hang out either! ha! I still would really like to know in what way the hardware was so ahead of its time in the above context.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[Push Upstairs]

I think a good question to ask is:

Which is better, the Saturn or the Neo Geo CD?

[Bratwurst]

There were consoles and arcade systems that shared the same chipset before Neo Geo. The NES, as the Nintendo Playchoice is 1 example. Have you played Super Mario Bros. in the arcades? What a blast. It's been done before.

NES hardware was 1983 technology while the Playchoice machines were an afterthought to push the software sales. Granted, it was a big selling point in the late 80s to tout consoles as being competitive to arcade offerings, the Genesis was a dumbed down System 16 platform. However, SNK offered the exact same thing found in their cabs to the home market, which was very current at the time, and very expensive.

[Mr. Smashy]

You're right, i am referring the to the Pong released on the Atari Anniversary disc. Is Pong disqualified because it was released in a compilation? If so, would Metal Slug 4 & 5 (combo pack) be disqualified as well? If the Neo Geo is ahead of its time because Metal Slug 3 is on the Xbox then Pong (and whatever arcade board runs it) is ahead of its time because of it appears on the Dreamcast as long as it's not disqualified for being on a comp. Make sense? I don't think it does, but Im drawing this conclusion based on your logic.

You know how they had Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 on the PlayStation (one)and the Xbox? They might go by the same name and play similarly, but the differences are as plain as day. Imagine the Xbox were released a year earlier than the PlayStation. The Xbox costs 4 or 5 times more than the PlayStation and all of your friends have a PlayStation because their parents could afford it and Walmart carries PlayStation games. Clearly, the Xbox version of the game provides a better gaming experience because of the hardware that allows the game programmers to enhance many aspects of the game. Then, imagine that it takes 5 years after the release of the PlayStation for some companies to enter the market with systems that are about as powerful as the Xbox for the most part. Would it then not be a reasonable, logical conclusion to say that the Xbox was ahead of its time?

[Richter]

Why is SF Zero 3 better in quality of animation on Saturn then Dreamcast?cause the Saturn version is an arcade port, whereas the DC version is a port of the PSX version

>.> <.<

Ding ding ding!

YOU ARE DA WINNAR!

Thank you for pointing out the truth!a winner is me
can i get a cookie? :D

[classicb]

You're right, i am referring the to the Pong released on the Atari Anniversary disc. Is Pong disqualified because it was released in a compilation? If so, would Metal Slug 4 & 5 (combo pack) be disqualified as well? If the Neo Geo is ahead of its time because Metal Slug 3 is on the Xbox then Pong (and whatever arcade board runs it) is ahead of its time because of it appears on the Dreamcast as long as it's not disqualified for being on a comp. Make sense? I don't think it does, but Im drawing this conclusion based on your logic.

You know how they had Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 on the PlayStation (one)and the Xbox? They might go by the same name and play similarly, but the differences are as plain as day. Imagine the Xbox were released a year earlier than the PlayStation. The Xbox costs 4 or 5 times more than the PlayStation and all of your friends have a PlayStation because their parents could afford it and Walmart carries PlayStation games. Clearly, the Xbox version of the game provides a better gaming experience because of the hardware allows the game programmers to enhance many aspects of the game. Then, imagine that it takes 5 years after the release of the PlayStation for some companies to enter the market with systems that are about as powerful as the Xbox for the most part. Would it then not be a reasonable, logical conclusion to say that the Xbox was ahead of its time?

also a winner and gets a cookie

[ghostangelofcky]

Look, argueing between the Neo Geo and the Saturn is like two seventeen year old girls argueing over size doesn't matter, (god as hot as that is) it's stupid, this post should be reserved to those who have have at least both and at least 8 good games for each.

This arguement is like me saying asian girls are better than white girls. Which they are but if any one has a prob with that i would be more than willing to do the research!!!!!!! haha. You all get me.

ghost

[Daria]

Look, argueing between the Neo Geo and the Saturn is like two seventeen year old girls argueing over size doesn't matter, (god as hot as that is) it's stupid, this post should be reserved to those who have have at least both and at least 8 good games for each.

This arguement is like me saying asian girls are better than white girls. Which they are but if any one has a prob with that i would be more than willing to do the research!!!!!!! haha. You all get me.

ghost

I get that you're a horn dog.

Wait. No... wait... What was the point of your post again?

:P

[ghostangelofcky]

Uhhhh... the first line.
Sorry that was the best I could do this late at nite!

haha

ghost

[Zubiac666]

Why is the "most powerfull" 2D console NOT able to display a perfect port of a 16bit NeoGeo game.


The console is 24 bit, right?

No it isn't.
Like testament89 posted it runs on a 16bit CPU plus an 8bit coCPU.
Only god knows why SNK summated those two numbers and made 24bit console out of them.Maybe cause it looks better...
If Sega did the same,the saturn would be 64bit console(2x 32bit CPUS).

:roll:

[RCM]

Brawurst Wrote:

NES hardware was 1983 technology while the Playchoice machines were an afterthought to push the software sales. Granted, it was a big selling point in the late 80s to tout consoles as being competitive to arcade offerings, the Genesis was a dumbed down System 16 platform. However, SNK offered the exact same thing found in their cabs to the home market, which was very current at the time, and very expensive.

I was merely pointing out the fact that SNK was NOT the first company to share the same hardware at home and the arcade.

Mr. Smashy Wrote:

You know how they had Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 on the PlayStation (one)and the Xbox? They might go by the same name and play similarly, but the differences are as plain as day. Imagine the Xbox were released a year earlier than the PlayStation. The Xbox costs 4 or 5 times more than the PlayStation and all of your friends have a PlayStation because their parents could afford it and Walmart carries PlayStation games. Clearly, the Xbox version of the game provides a better gaming experience because of the hardware that allows the game programmers to enhance many aspects of the game. Then, imagine that it takes 5 years after the release of the PlayStation for some companies to enter the market with systems that are about as powerful as the Xbox for the most part. Would it then not be a reasonable, logical conclusion to say that the Xbox was ahead of its time?

I disagree. High cost does not qualify a home console, in my opinion, as being ahead of its time. That seems to be the foundation for your entire belief. I guess when I point to some innovative feature of a piece of hardware I do so for something more then price. Oh well.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[musical]

Atari Jaguar is the best 2D.



What???

[Bratwurst]

I was merely pointing out the fact that SNK was NOT the first company to share the same hardware at home and the arcade.

You could have gone back even earlier and referenced the Pong arcade and subsequent home units, but my point is that the Nintendo and Neo Geo had quite the disparity between them. I'm not going to toss out a list of bullet-points explaining why either. :P

[RCM]

Bratwurst wrote:

You could have gone back even earlier and referenced the Pong arcade and subsequent home units, but my point is that the Nintendo and Neo Geo had quite the disparity between them. I'm not going to toss out a list of bullet-points explaining why either.

I thought of the Atari Pong thing! I just wasn't sure that they were sharing the same architecture. I know that MVS and AES are the same and the NES and Playchoice are the same. Wasn't sure about Pong though. Atari Pong looks the same as the arcade, but are the "guts" the same? I really couldn't find anything saying the 2 were identical. I admit, I wasn't searching too hard though!

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[Bratwurst]

I'm betting the components used were smaller and probably a little different, but the circuit and main design were still similar enough to achieve the same results. It's in the same vein as the NES and Playchoice hardware in that the latter supported dual monitors, accessed the game roms differently and had timer hardware implemented but that's really just minor quibbling.

[Geddon_jt]

Anyway, I love Neo Geo, I play Neo Geo! I guess a discussion like this, not argument, is done best in person and not on a message board. No, that's not an invitation to hang out either! ha! I still would really like to know in what way the hardware was so ahead of its time in the above context.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM


Ever looked at Fatal Fury next to Mark of the Wolves?
Samurai Shodown next to Last Blade 2?
Alpha Mission 2 next to Blazing Star?

In my opinion, what makes a system (like Neo Geo) "ahead of its time" is its ability to exhibit cutting-edge graphics and gameplay that meet or exceed its contemporary competition, over a decade after its original release. The evolution of its games is a testament to that - the Neo hardware is such that the cartridges just grew and grew as graphical and sound improvements were made over its lifespan, and it remained cutting-edge and competitive until the very end. Sometimes yoy can put 2 NeoGeo games side by side and it is really unbelievable that they are playing on the same system.

[MegaDrive20XX]

Why is SF Zero 3 better in quality of animation on Saturn then Dreamcast?cause the Saturn version is an arcade port, whereas the DC version is a port of the PSX version

>.> <.<

Ding ding ding!

YOU ARE DA WINNAR!

Thank you for pointing out the truth!a winner is me
can i get a cookie? :D

Well I got some Fortune Cookies, these rock :-P I dunno why people feel ashamed for buying a box of these..like they actually take the message inside seriously...I just consider it a lottery helper

[Dreamscape]

Yes, the PS1, PS2, DC, XBOX,and DC all have 2D games, but lets face it, they were all designed to be 3D game systems,

Actualy, like the Saturn the PSX was a 2D system tht really pushed it's 3D capabilities.

:bullshit:

Sony wanted the PS1 to be a 3D games machine, especaially in the beginning. They wanted to stress that the Playstation was a 3D games machine. When Capcom asked them if they could put Mega Man on the Playstation, Sony said no because they did not like 2D. The only reason it is on the Playstation is beacause it showed up on the Sega Saturn. Mega Man was really popular, and Sony did not want Sega to get all the glory , so they let Capcom put Mega Man on the Playstation under 2 conditions, one that the Playstation version have something the Saturn vesion did not and two, they would do a 3D Mega Man for them. That is why Mega Man Legends came out. Sony did not like the idea of 2D games being on their system, of course they lightened up after a while, but Sony designed the Playstation to be a 3D machine, not a 2D power house like the saturn, and like most 3D game machines, of course it can do 2D and do it well, but like i have been saying the entire time, it was meant to be a 3D machine.

[RCM]

Geddon_it wrote:

Sometimes yoy can put 2 NeoGeo games side by side and it is really unbelievable that they are playing on the same system.

That's usually what happens. Not just for Neo Geo mind you, but for all systems that have a couple generations of software. Look at first generation PS, Saturn, DC, GC, Xbox, PS2, etc., and compare that software to the latest (or last) generation of software for each respective system. You will see a leap.


In my opinion, what makes a system (like Neo Geo) "ahead of its time" is its ability to exhibit cutting-edge graphics and gameplay that meet or exceed its contemporary competition, over a decade after its original release. The evolution of its games is a testament to that - the Neo hardware is such that the cartridges just grew and grew as graphical and sound improvements were made over its lifespan, and it remained cutting-edge and competitive until the very end.

What Neo Geo games displayed cutting edge graphics over its competition for a decade? Neo Geo was/is a great 2D machine, but in 1994 with the release of the Playstation and Saturn (in Japan) polygonal games became the cutting edge form of expression. It happened sooner In arcades with the introduction of the Model 1 arcade board that Virtua Racing and Virtua Fighter ran on.

ALso, what cutting edge gameplay were you referring to? I love Samuari Showdown as much as the next guy, but if you close your eyes and play that game you might swear you're playing Street Fighter 2. I use this example b/c SS is one of SNK's bread and butter fighting series. ALso, how did the Neo Geo remain cutting edge and competitive till the end? SNK went backrupt and closed its doors. the Neo Geo MVS and AES is/was a niche market. They never really competed with any system for long as far as installed base and software sales.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[Avenger]

the saturn didnt just play 2d games....and xbox plays both 2d and 3d....xbox is the most powerful console ever made....so it would be xbox wouldnt it :P

[kingpong]

Just to throw a bit of a wrench into the argument, consider this - modern consoles do not really do 2D graphics. Not sure if the Saturn falls into this category, but basically all the consoles from at least the PS1 forward don't have a 2D layer, but rather implement 2D as textures on polygons (usually just a flat surface that covers the screen). They may be doing 2D things with the textures, but what you're seeing is actually 3D rendering of something flat, not proper 2D graphics display.

If you get picky about it then, modern consoles can't be considered as doing the best 2D - they aren't even capable of proper 2D.

[Geddon_jt]

Geddon_it wrote:

Sometimes yoy can put 2 NeoGeo games side by side and it is really unbelievable that they are playing on the same system.

That's usually what happens. Not just for Neo Geo mind you, but for all systems that have a couple generations of software. Look at first generation PS, Saturn, DC, GC, Xbox, PS2, etc., and compare that software to the latest (or last) generation of software for each respective system. You will see a leap.

What Neo Geo games displayed cutting edge graphics over its competition for a decade? Neo Geo was/is a great 2D machine, but in 1994 with the release of the Playstation and Saturn (in Japan) polygonal games became the cutting edge form of expression. It happened sooner In arcades with the introduction of the Model 1 arcade board that Virtua Racing and Virtua Fighter ran on.

ALso, what cutting edge gameplay were you referring to? I love Samuari Showdown as much as the next guy, but if you close your eyes and play that game you might swear you're playing Street Fighter 2. I use this example b/c SS is one of SNK's bread and butter fighting series. ALso, how did the Neo Geo remain cutting edge and competitive till the end? SNK went backrupt and closed its doors. the Neo Geo MVS and AES is/was a niche market. They never really competed with any system for long as far as installed base and software sales.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM


Sorry, I worded my prior post incorrectly. I didnt mean to say any of the first generation games stood up a decade after they were released, what I was trying to say was the Neo hardware was still capable of turning out games that matched its contemporary competition a decade after its release. I would suggest that the multi-generational, 14 year gap between the first gen and newest games is a bit more striking than for other more mainstream systems, but thats just my opinion really.

Despite the fact that 3d became the "cutting edge", 2d games have remained popular and are still being developed today. In that area (2d games) the neo and its graphics have remained 100% competitive, IMHO. So I guess if you define "cutting edge" as just 3d, this whole debate is sort of moot.

I could get in a debate about whether SNK had great gameplay, but that's kinda tired. I think anyone will acknowledge that SNK's fighters stand with the best 2d fighters from just about any other company on many levels.

Never really competed?
The Neo MVS is probably the most successful arcade platform of all time. There are MILLIONS of MVS machines worldwide.
We might not see it as much in the states but in Latin America, Mexico, and especially Japan (where new Neo games are consistent top-earners in the arcade) the system is STILL huge. The success of the Neo and its longevity are directly correlated to its profiability and massive success in the arcades, despite the dozens of hardware revisions its competitors like Sega and Capcom have churned out over its lifespan.

[evilmess]

I'd like to add that we may never know how much untapped power and potential the Saturn had due to it's short life span. The Neo Geo has had the benefit of what... 12+ years developer input?

Look at the recent 32X Zyrinx demo video that was recently discussed in the forum (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37510). That video is a great example of the untapped potential of the 32X which also died prematurely.

Out of my own personal Saturn library I've see some pretty amazing 2D effects from mid generation titles like Galactic Attack and Darius Gaiden and my version of X-Men COTA is a fast, responsive fighter with great graphics (i love the ready room level!) and it's not even the best Saturn has to offer.

And for those of you saying the xbox is teh most powerful, thats crazy talk.... knock it off! :fist: LOL

[-hellvin-]

Yes..............because the saturn is in the same generation as the dreamcast or xbox. If you place it in it's own generation it is without a doubt a 2d powerhouse. And of course it can't produce a neo geo port because the neo geo is much more powerful arcade perfect hardware machine. A port is obviously never going to be as good as the original.

And how many xbox games besides MS3 are really truly 2d? Even Shikigami No Shiro is a 2d shooter but it has 3d modeling all over it. So of course it's going to look better.

[EnemyZero]

Even thought saturn is my fav console ever...I'm not going to say its the most powerfull 2D machine, because NeoGeo is a 2D powerhouse, but from what saturn had, comparing to nintendo and sony, rocked, and still does. Its not so much the "crispness" of the graphics but the game as a whole...NeoGeo and psone had alot of 2d games...but how many can you say are good? only a handfull? did you ever play Astal on saturn? if not please do, to this day one of the most breathtaking 2D games...or any game period...fantastic soundtrack, characters, levels, graphics. check it out

[classicb]

While I don't think the Saturn is the greatest 2D machine ever I think it's a tricky question because as soon as 3D arrived their has been a decline of 2D and while every system after the Saturn has been able too do 2D better they have produced far less 2D titles. The Neo Geo of course does tons of 2D and probably is number 1.

[musical]

all the consoles from at least the PS1 forward don't have a 2D layer, but rather implement 2D as textures on polygons (usually just a flat surface that covers the screen). They may be doing 2D things with the textures, but what you're seeing is actually 3D rendering of something flat, not proper 2D graphics display.


PS1/N64/PS2 don't use sprite hardware? I find that hard to believe.

[c2000]

The N.G may do better 2D (depending on the game, I'd like see R.S done on the N.G->no way) but because of the different genres of 2D games available from MULTIPLE devlopers (not just SNK) clearly gives the Saturn the edge.

And yes, I'll admit it im a Saturn fanboy :D