ESPN Football 2K5: Wow!

[YoshiM]

Yesterday my brother-in-law picked up ESPN Football 2K5 for the Xbox. Figured for the price it'd be something to tide him over until Madden comes out. So we sat around the TV and he popped the game in, messed around with some options then decided to play First Person mode. "I figure I might not like it, so let's get it out of the way," he said as that mode booted up.

It is the coolest thing we've ever seen in a football game.

Basically the camera is lodged inside the helmet so you see the facemask, the top rim of the helmet (with the player's name so you know who you are controlling) and of course the action. Right stick allows you to move your head left and right. The best part is that this mode continues to keep you "in character", so to speak. You see everything from the first person view: running out of the tunnel, being in the huddle, during celebrations, during coin toss. Just amazing.

Gameplay in this mode is totally different. As quarterback you literally have to turn your player's head to scan the field for an open receiver. Thankfully there are indicator arrows that flash and change color to show where danger is coming from and how close they are. When you get knocked down, you see your whole world just spiral as your character tumbles. If you get a more intense hit, your view goes black for a moment. Switching players will bring the camera "out of body" and will slow the action down as the camera zooms into the head of the player you selected.

So my bro-in-law played around with that until he was on defense, which is pretty hard to do first person. He then clicked some buttons and all of a sudden the game went to the 2nd-person mode. A grin spread upon his face. "I think I have a new favorite football game."

Then he let me have at it. So we started the season with the Packers and off I went on the road to Super Bowl glory. I haven't played a football game in a really long time and it showed: I rushed my passes, I'm not very good at the running game and 1st person took a bit for me to get used to. Thankfully I've always been good at defense and was able to put the brakes on the opposing team's (I can't remember who I played against) advances ending the game in a 0-0 tie. Even though I lost, I loved it. This, coming from a guy who isn't really into sports, period.

Of course this isn't an in depth review as I haven't gotten my copy yet (and at 20 bones, you can't really go wrong) but it does have create-a-player, create-a-team, celebration maker, franchise mode (with salary caps, contract negotiations and such), pre game situations (create practices, exercise, assign time off, assign rehabilitation, etc.), a weekly (I think) Sports Center recap that looks like you are watching an episode-right down to game highlights, a "crib" where you can purchase items to furnish your domain (with bobble-heads, posters, furniture, etc.) and I'm sure lots more.

[pookninja]

when it comes to football games,i am all-madden.i have already pre-ordered the special edition of madden 2005 for ps2.but,for 20 dollars,i might just run down to gamecrazy today and pick up a copy.i think sega had a first person perspective in last years version too.i never played it,but heard good things about it.i think sega did a smart move on making there football title" budget priced",and if it plays as good as it is priced,they may give madden a bloody, gridiron war.

[lendelin]

Great to hear that the game is good. For a $20 new release price in order to gain a competitive edge aginst Madden, even a notorious anti-sports gamer for traditional American sports like me might pick it up. I put it in my 'maybe'-list.

As a German, I never really played through a football game. I just can't mentally connect. Well, I always have Winning Eleven 6 for 'real' sports like soccer ;) (and even soccer games bored me in the past)

Yoshi, good to hear you played as the Packers. If you had played as the Cowboys, you might have been stoned to death by fellow Wisconsinites. ;)

Yep, those sports games became so good in the meantime that they appeal to the casual and frequent gamer crowd alike. No wonder it's one of the most competitive and successful genres.

[Gamereviewgod]

I don't care what Madden pulls out this year, ESPN has it slaughtered. The default difficulty needs to be adjusted immediately (after I did so, my second game ended in a 7-7 tie which I don't think I've ever done in a football game before), but after that it's pure bliss. The crib is most improved, but the celebrity calls are just flat-out stupid. The new moves on the field will take some work to get used to, but once you've learned the system, it all becomes second nature.

The new graphics system is mighty impressive, and only slows a bit during cinemas. Oh, and the cinemas! Berman in the studio for Sportcenter, Suzie Kolber (sp?) interviewing the players after the game, players kickig over Gatorade coolers after bad plays, etc. It's just stunning. Granted, virtual Berman and the interviews have no lip synching whatsoever, but this is a new feature so I guess time will show us what it can do.

The passing system still suffers from a bit too many drops, but it has definitely been worked on to make it seem more realistic. The running game is better than anything Madden has ever put out and that's all there is to that.

If you don't buy this for $20, you're an idiot.

[YoshiM]

Yoshi, good to hear you played as the Packers. If you had played as the Cowboys, you might have been stoned to death by fellow Wisconsinites. ;)

Or Da Bears.

Actually I usually pick the Steelers. Been a favorite "game team" since Tecmo Super Bowl 3 for the SNES. Secondary is the Jets. Yeah, I like to try and take underdog teams to the Super Bowl. Of course I pad the roster with trades/free agents that normally wouldn't go to those teams. However I don't think I'll get that opportunity with the more in depth salary/contract/bonus system they have in play.

[SoulBlazer]

I picked up the game after work last night and had the chance to mess around with it and play one game as the Pats before it was time for bed.

I'll play it more tonight after work, but it looks VERY good.

Graphics and sound effects are good, the intergration with ESPN and SportsCenter is downright PERFECT, first person is cool once you get used to it, and the franchise mode is improved.

I'm still getting Madden 2005 when it comes out, but I had both Madden and ESPN last year and I can't see a reason not to do it again this year.

And it's only $20! :)

Oh, I got the XBox version.

[lendelin]

Yoshi, good to hear you played as the Packers. If you had played as the Cowboys, you might have been stoned to death by fellow Wisconsinites. ;)

Or Da Bears.

Actually I usually pick the Steelers.

Bears??...Steelers???...tz, tz, it's getting worse and worse and worse.

Well, on the other hand, I'm from the South-Western part of Germany, and my favorite team was and always will be Bayern Munich. (YEAH)

It's really good to hear that the game worked out so well. I hope The game will put up a big fight with Madden. Too bad Sega doesn't support the GC anymnore with the franchise.

That's the second first-rate sports title we get this year for $20, first Colin McRae 4, now ESPN NFL. The gaming world looks pretty good right now for players, very good.

[spoon]

Best $20.00 dollars EVAR!

Man, this game is just wow. First time in years I have bought a sports game withing its first few days of release. The price point pulled me in. I also hate Madden and have had a soft spot for the 2K series since the DC days.

Screw Madden.

I know what I will be doing all next week.

[videogameking26]

I also bought ESPN NFL 2K5 yesterday to tidy me over till my fully paided off reserve copy of Madden 2005 Collection's Edition for the PS2 comes out and man I'm glad I did :D .Awesome football game and experience and currently put over 5 hours into my franchise w/ the Buffalo Bills and 4-1 so far.Great overall deep game with fun mini games and a neat crib to pimp out.

Also for $20 it's a must own for any sports fan :-P

and I also got the Xbox Version

[classicb]

the $19 price point was a good call. The game is sold out at both my EBgames and Gamestop. I've been reading the reviews of how this game blows Madden away plus I've also been a fan since the DC days.

The emplyoees at both stores tried to get me to reserve Madden and both were down playing the ESPN game as being all right but nothing compared to Madden.

I guess I'll have to go to another store and look for it.

[SoulBlazer]

If nothing else, this is a WONDERFULL chance to see how this experiment works.

Sega and ESPN must have gotten together and been like "We have a good game but we have a uphill battle to catch up to Madden. What can we do to imrpove the franchise?" Sega responded "We can try selling the game cheaply AND get it out first".

It's a big risk, and I can't see the game making as much money as Madden, but it seems like it will pay off really well.

The fact the game is only $20 AND is out a few weeks before Madden is sure to grab the attention of many people who would'nt have bought the game. Many folks will happily pick it up now just for curiousty because of the cheap price and that they want a football game.

Other companies could learn from this. ;)

[zmweasel]

Sega and ESPN must have gotten together and been like "We have a good game but we have a uphill battle to catch up to Madden. What can we do to imrpove the franchise?" Sega responded "We can try selling the game cheaply AND get it out first".

Those aren't improvements; those are misguided last-ditch marketing efforts.


It's a big risk, and I can't see the game making as much money as Madden, but it seems like it will pay off really well.

Not really. If ESPN NFL 2K5 manages to sell a million copies--which is highly unlikely, as Madden sells about two million copies a year, and Madden has *destroyed* ESPN at retail in previous years--that's just $20 million of gross profit. Now subtract the costs of development, production, marketing, and retail. What's left is a relative pittance for a company of SEGA's size. And it's not like SEGA can go back to $50 next year.


Other companies could learn from this. ;)

There's no lesson to be learned here, other than kamikaze price points don't benefit anyone (including consumers, in the long run).

-- Z.

[digitalpress]

I'm glad to hear everyone likes it! I ordered mine online awhile back so it should arrive today. So when are we all getting together to play a great big Xbox Live match? :onfire:

[AB Positive]

Hell, son, count me in. Let's make DAMN sure the refs in THIS version of the NFL call penalties like they should. Now my beloved Colts can win it all ;)

When I get xbox live, I expect to be playin' some of you fools :D

-AG

[brykasch]

Remember target is selling this for 15.88 in next weeks sales flyer:) so buy copies for friends:) I am getting mine on Sunday.

[lendelin]

Sega and ESPN must have gotten together and been like "We have a good game but we have a uphill battle to catch up to Madden. What can we do to imrpove the franchise?" Sega responded "We can try selling the game cheaply AND get it out first".

Those aren't improvements; those are misguided last-ditch marketing efforts.



Nope, it isn't a misguided strategy, it's a very rational business decision which might work out, and also an indicator of the desparate situation that you can't compete on an even-levelled playing field.


If ESPN NFL 2K5 manages to sell a million copies--which is highly unlikely, as Madden sells about two million copies a year, and Madden has *destroyed* ESPN at retail in previous years--that's just $20 million of gross profit. Now subtract the costs of development, production, marketing, and retail. What's left is a relative pittance for a company of SEGA's size. And it's not like SEGA can go back to $50 next year.


Sega is well aware they will make only a pittiful profit on it, or come out even, or take losses. It's a stretegy in the long-run to build a loyal fanbase for the franchise in order to compete with a seemingly invincible competitor.


There's no lesson to be learned here, other than kamikaze price points don't benefit anyone (including consumers, in the long run).

Those low prices would be only detrimental in every aspect IF they stay at the price-level for a long period of time or permanently. Sega doesn't plan on it.

If it works out, in the long-run it will be good for Sega AND players. They build a fanbase for the franchise, catch-up with Madden, and have a much better starting position for their game next year. Gamers profit in the short run becasue they get temporarily a game very cheap, and they profit in the long run becasue Madden has a serious competitor again; EA can't rest on their laurels, and it will be good for game quality from which the gamer profits.

If it works out, we won't get ESPN for $20 again, that's for sure.

The biggest problem for Sega will be to go up with the price again becasue players got used to the low price. Consumers get very easily used to low prices. This scenario is also good for players. If Sega sells the game next year for $40, they might force EA to do the same becasue they can smell a competitor which gradually is catching up. With the sheer number of games sold of Madden (even significantly reduced), they would still make a very good profit.

If it works out, good for Sega, good for players.

There is a big lesson to be learned here if it works out. A temporary price reduction associated with moderate losses may be a successful strategy and serious option for other developers/publishers in a similar situation if you have a high-quality game.

Only one thing is dangerous for players - if you have a King like Madden sitting comfortable in a throne with three cushions under its butt.

[SoulBlazer]

\^_^/

To previous post :D

Took the words out of my mouth. ;)

Oh, and Adam, I'll take you up on that bet. I've allready whipped the Colts with my Pats several times -- once more won't matter. :P

[mregashu]

If Sega is really smart, they will get to work on a college football game based on this engine, package it WITH the NFL game and charge 50 bucks. That way there is a precedent for bumping the price back up, and they can start to dent EA's market on the college game.

I agree with everyone here by the way - this is a fantastic football game!

[rscaramelo]

With the exception of the Tecmo series of football games, this is the best football game I have ever played! Tecmo and any modern game is apple and oranges anyways. I also have the EA College 05 game and this is a much more enjoyable game, not that there is anything wrong with the EA game. It's a real bargin.

I picked it up last night based on this thread. Thanks for informing me about it.

Roger

[Rogmeister]

Hey, hey! Who's this new Roger? I thought my name was copyrighted? Never mind...

I picked up the game myself a day or two ago...at first, I thought of looking up a clerk and saying "Hey, you priced this wrong...this is a new game!" LOL

[SoulBlazer]

Played a couple games today, about the first chance I've had to really sink in some serious time after setting up my franchise last night.

I just have one major complaint about the game --

How come you can't speed up time outs when your team calls them?

Nothing works as far as button pushing or getting it to advance, and it takes almost a minute to finally get back to the game.

[zmweasel]

Nope, it isn't a misguided strategy, it's a very rational business decision which might work out, and also an indicator of the desparate situation that you can't compete on an even-levelled playing field.

"Rational" would be what Microsoft and Sony did: postponing their football franchises until further notice instead of giving away the farm.


Those low prices would be only detrimental in every aspect IF they stay at the price-level for a long period of time or permanently. Sega doesn't plan on it.

SEGA hasn't had a plan in a decade, and SEGA can't go back to $50. The only people picking up the game at $20, other than its puny fanbase, are cheap bastards and curious Madden fans. If it goes back up to $50, the cheap bastards disappear and the Madden fans stick with their favorite.

Microsoft and Sony had more resources and money than SEGA, and they wisely chose to halt their franchises instead of using kamikaze price points to fight a hopeless battle.


If it works out, in the long-run it will be good for Sega AND players. They build a fanbase for the franchise, catch-up with Madden, and have a much better starting position for their game next year. Gamers profit in the short run becasue they get temporarily a game very cheap, and they profit in the long run becasue Madden has a serious competitor again; EA can't rest on their laurels, and it will be good for game quality from which the gamer profits.

As mentioned above, this franchise has had more than enough time to build a fanbase, and it hasn't happened. SEGA thought the success of the franchise on the Dreamcast would carry over to other platforms, and it didn't. SEGA will never catch up with EA--it'll never get close.


There is a big lesson to be learned here if it works out. A temporary price reduction associated with moderate losses may be a successful strategy and serious option for other developers/publishers in a similar situation if you have a high-quality game.

There are only a few companies in this industry that can afford "moderate losses" for any length of time, and SEGA isn't really one of them.

-- Z.

[zot wildstarr]

I have a technical question for someone out there. While inputting(?) some names for some of the Historic teams, I sometimes get a window that says "Audio File Match" which then allows the name of that particular to be used by the announcers, and the name is used in TD graphics as well. This doesn't happen with every name, however.

My question: Is it somehow possible to access the Audio File to see what players are listed for the Historic teams? x_x

Zot

[Drexel923]

I picked up the game today and its awesome. I don't buy sports games every year, but this was definitely worth it...if it wasn't for the price, I may have passed on it.

I do have a question though (may be a dumb one). I was trying the complete the signings of E George to the Cowboys and A Smith to the Titans, but I'm having some problems. It seems the only place I can do this is in the main menu. I complete the deals and then save the rosters...but when I load my franchise, the rosters are set back to the default. I looked all over the franchise mode and I can't figure out how to do it. Anyone know what to do?

[lendelin]

Well, I'm glad that you agree in the meantime that the strategy is good in the short and long run for everyone if it works out; but now you question the prospects of the strategy and critisize it's rationality.



"Rational" would be what Microsoft and Sony did: postponing their football franchises until further notice instead of giving away the farm.


That's the dumbest thing they could have done.

Canning the franchise temporarily or altogether makes sense indeed if only 30% or 50% of the game is finished. You invested something, and you count your losses and get a new starting position.

If 80% or 90% of the game is finished and you have a game which is equally good or even better than the competitor in all likelihood, it makes all the sense in the world to release it for a low price against Madden which smashed you in the past.

If you just get the development costs out of it, great and much better than canning it; if you have moderate losses, great and much less losses compared to canning it; if you got moderate profits, wonderful and paradise.

The biggest loss would be a temporary delay or canning it altogether, then you loose your entire development costs; if released, you add production costs and distribution costs, compare them to the profit margin of a conservative sales estimation, and if even the worst case scenario (lowest sales estimation) indicate that the loss would be less than the loss of the development costs, then you go for a low price release. At a $20 price tag, I doubt heavily that the losses even for a low sales estimation exceed the loss of the already invested development costs.

You said Sega can't afford moderate losses for ONE franchise and ONE game (which is impossible to estimate without reliable in-house data); let's assume that's true, your proposal would mean even more significant losses they can't afford.

A temporary delay for a high quality game would only delay the funeral and isn't a rational option at all. To invest more time to polish an almost finished high-quality game wouldn't give you an advantage over Madden becasue EA is working on their next Madden already.

To release the game at a low price is a test run which gives Sega the minimal amount of losses or even break even, gives them the option to cancel the franchise altogether if the sales are still disappointing, and the chance to penetrate the Madden fanbase and this way have a better starting position against Madden next year.


The only people picking up the game at $20, other than its puny fanbase, are cheap bastards and curious Madden fans.

...THEN it's already a moderate success! I don't know about the 'cheap bastards,' but a certain percentage of Madden fans picking it up means they might view ESPN as a realistic alternative to Madden next year. This is what this is all about, to penetrate the Madden fanbase. At a $20 price tag, a high quality football game can certainly poke some holes into the Madden wall.


If it goes back up to $50, the cheap bastards disappear and the Madden fans stick with their favorite.

If the Madden fans stick with their game or pick up ESPN next year, that's another and the decisive issue. You don't know, I don't know, Sega and EA don't know. If we knew, there wouldn't be risks, failures and successes in the business world. Sega took a calculated risk because they had to.

Right, as I said already, Sega can't increase easily the price to $50 next year, in all likelihood they can't at all. The present low price is a big psychological obstacle for increasing the price drastically; if the current startegy works out, they can increase the price to $35 or $40; in any case, it must be cheaper than Madden which (if it works out) might force EA to adjust their price temporarily also. (not likely becasue other factors play a role, not only the one-on-one competition) It all depends on sales figures.

Sega's strategy is the only and most reasonable one in their situation. Good for Sega, good for gameplayers, good for game quality in the long and short run IF it works out.

[videogameking26]

I'm glad you guys are enjoying these awesome game..

I know I am as I put 3 more games on my franchise w/ the Bills and currently 7-1 and have almost 9 hours logged into the game X_x ...and loving it..I'm addicted :D :-P.

I will be hooking up with some of you once I get Xbox Live...got BB just need the starter kit and a debit card to get started :D

[zmweasel]

Well, I'm glad that you agree in the meantime that the strategy is good in the short and long run for everyone if it works out; but now you question the prospects of the strategy and critisize it's rationality.

Whaaa? I don't agree AT ALL. The $20 MSRP is a desperate act from a desperate company. SEGA certainly doesn't benefit by turning itself into a budget publisher, as an EA flack pointed out: "[SEGA is] signaling to consumers, retailers and the NFL that they are no longer selling a premium product."

The video game industry certainly doesn't benefit by having a misguided company trying to set a precedent of a $20 price point for A-list games.

Not long ago, the industry was speculating about who's going to release the first $60 disc-format game (discounting Working Designs' PS1 packaging stunts), since development costs will skyrocket yet again with the next generation of hardware. Programming the mass market into expecting $20 MSRPs for new stuff would result in the swift demise of the few smaller publishers remaining in the biz.

I don't have the faith you do that NFL 2K5 will seduce cheap bastards and curious Madden players into switching loyalties. The franchise has already been around for half a decade, and received gobs of glowing reviews and press coverage, and yet people still buy two million copies of Madden a year.

Remember two years ago, when SEGA blamed the series' disastrous head-to-head debut against Madden for a 13-billion-yen drop in its profit estimates? SEGA estimated that the game would sell at least five times more units than it actually did. This is a company with a decade-long track record of blunders. Dropping 2K5 to $20 is just the latest.

EA is going to gobble up all the sales that might have gone to Microsoft's NFL Fever or Sony's NFL GameDay, more than making up for any temporary gains SEGA experiences with its kamikaze price point.

I find it amusing that some of the same gamers who argue that the Nintendo DS will destroy the Sony PSP because of consumers' "loyalty" to Nintendo are ignoring that the best-selling sports-game franchise in the history of the industry has plenty of its own loyalty, having been around for as long as the Game Boy. But of course they have to ignore it, because it's SEGA (the "good guys") versus EA (the "bad guys").

-- Z.

[classicb]

With the exception of the Tecmo series of football games, this is the best football game I have ever played! Tecmo and any modern game is apple and oranges anyways. I also have the EA College 05 game and this is a much more enjoyable game, not that there is anything wrong with the EA game. It's a real bargin.

I picked it up last night based on this thread. Thanks for informing me about it.

Roger

well nothing will ever be better than Tecmo Super Bowl but this game comes a close second.

I must say I have a lot of friends who are "casual gamers" and they don't like it and keep saying that Madden is still the best. I figure its only because their not use to the controlls because I love it and most of you seemed to too. As good as this game is though Madden seems to already have most people brain washed.

[Kid Ice]

Picked it up for $20 without a second thought yesterday. Played for four hours last night (the game keeps track). First new football game for me since NFL2K. If you're an Eagles fan, you must own this game; they're awesome. And check out the cover :)

[norkusa]

Picked it up for $20 without a second thought yesterday. Played for four hours last night (the game keeps track). First new football game for me since NFL2K. If you're an Eagles fan, you must own this game; they're awesome. And check out the cover :)

Same here. Played it all of last night and love it. My biggest surprise is being able to play against Steve-O as a computer player (I'm a big Jackass fan). Sounds like allot of people here have the game already...we should start some kind of DP league or tournament. Isn't that one of the options in it's Live features?

I don't care what anyone says. I still think ESPN will outsell Madden this year.

[Gamereviewgod]

Anyone having issues with the depth chart? I'm playing as the Bears, getting my ass kicked. Rex Grossman goes out for the seaon with a collapsed lung in my 4th game. My third string QB is put in, Chris Krenzel. I don't know why my second stringer doesn't go in. I pick up a QB from free agency and put him at the top of the chart. Still, every game, there's Krenzel sucking as usual. Now I'm into my second season and the bastard is STILL starting even though Grossman is back. I have to manually go in every game by formation and sub him in. I even changed things around in the front office menu and I still can't get this to work. Anyone????

[zmweasel]

I don't care what anyone says. I still think ESPN will outsell Madden this year.

Where were you when I offered to bet anyone $1000 that Madden would outsell ESPN this year?! Ah, well.

-- Z.

[kevincure]

Zach, I don't know if it's such a bad idea from Sega's standpoint. A huge number of my casual gaming, Madden-only friends have bought ESPN 2k5 and love it; despite the glowing reviews, they'd never even bothered to try anything but Madden in the past. Many of them think that 2k5 is *better* than Madden 2004. There's a type of network effect (in the economics sense) with sports games: Once you learn the controls and get a group (online or off) playing together, you're likely to stick with the game in coming years.

I think it's clear that no one was going to knock off EA Sports without a radical change. The only times I can remember a non-EA football game doing well are Gameday in the mid-90s (because EA's Madden series didn't make the transition to full 3d fast enough) and NFL2k (because Madden wasn't online). Madden is a very good product, year-in, year-out. With its fanbase, simply scoring 5 stars in a review to Madden's 4.5 stars is not enough to pull in new fans.

Now, the $20 price point is dangerous for the industry as a whole, sure. Nonetheless, we are 4 years into this console cycle, and I would be surprised if budget games didn't begin to become more common. Further, sports games this far into a generation really are more of an expansion pack than a full title, so releasing 2k5 at 20 bucks is far less damaging to the industry's health than, say, Onimusha 3 at 20 bucks.

That said, I've heard rumors that EA will offer, in conjunction with some of the chains, a deal where you can trade in ESPN 2k5 and get Madden for a discounted price (20-30 bucks). Has anyone else heard this?

[norkusa]

I don't care what anyone says. I still think ESPN will outsell Madden this year.

Where were you when I offered to bet anyone $1000 that Madden would outsell ESPN this year?! Ah, well.

-- Z.

I was actually the one you made that offer to. I believe I originally said ESPN would outsell Madden 2-to-1 this year but I think that prediction is a bit unrealistic now. Still think it'll outsell Madden though. And no, I am not going to bet a grand on that. :P

[zmweasel]

I don't care what anyone says. I still think ESPN will outsell Madden this year.

Where were you when I offered to bet anyone $1000 that Madden would outsell ESPN this year?! Ah, well.

-- Z.

I was actually the one you made that offer to. I believe I originally said ESPN would outsell Madden 2-to-1 this year but I think that prediction is a bit unrealistic now. Still think it'll outsell Madden though. And no, I am not going to bet a grand on that. :P

How about $500?

-- Z.

[digitalpress]

I was actually the one you made that offer to. I believe I originally said ESPN would outsell Madden 2-to-1 this year but I think that prediction is a bit unrealistic now. Still think it'll outsell Madden though. And no, I am not going to bet a grand on that. :P

How about $500?

-- Z.

5 billls?

I'll bet a simple $20 that Madden outsells ESPN. I don't have either game yet and I'm sure I'll love them both but please... the gaming public is NOT the Retrogaming Roundtable. They seem to be mesmerized. They'll buy Madden no matter what.

Easy bet. $20 that Madden outsells ESPN Football.

[NoahsMyBro]

Well, damn.

The last system I bought was the Dreamcast. It's a fine system, the best thing to come out since the Atari 5200 (obviously IMO), and I've very happily enjoyed the pleasures of the modern systems only when going to NJ and SJ Classic every couple of months or so.

But I was absolutely blown away by NFL2k on the DC, and with all of this talk in this thread, you guys are getting me very, very tempted to go out and get an XBox. And I'd already decided long ago that if I did get a new system, it would be the Gamecube.

Now I'm broke and carrying credit card debt; I can't go buy a new game system right now! The extra stress I'm going to carry now is your fault! Yeah you! Every one of you happy forum posters!
:P

[classicb]

the gaming public is NOT the Retrogaming Roundtable. They seem to be mesmerized. They'll buy Madden no matter what.


no kidding. I love the game but nobody outside of this Forum seems to be giving it much of a chance. Here is what some of my friends are saying "it's allright but its no Madden"

[SoulBlazer]

It may not be just this game that is discounted:

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/sports/espnnflfootball2005/news_6103052.html

[zmweasel]

It may not be just this game that is discounted:

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/sports/espnnflfootball2005/news_6103052.html

It's confirmed: SEGA is a budget publisher. It's kind of funny and kind of sad.

-- Z.

[rscaramelo]

It may not be just this game that is discounted:

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/sports/espnnflfootball2005/news_6103052.html

It's confirmed: SEGA is a budget publisher. It's kind of funny and kind of sad.

-- Z.

I actually think it's a brilliant move. There will always be those people who will buy any crap that EA puts out. This will make a lot of people consider these EA alternatives. Sega puts out a nice product. These new products are cheaper than used 1 year old EA sports titles.

Roger

[pookninja]

the gaming public is NOT the Retrogaming Roundtable. They seem to be mesmerized. They'll buy Madden no matter what.


no kidding. I love the game but nobody outside of this Forum seems to be giving it much of a chance. Here is what some of my friends are saying "it's allright but its no Madden" yep.same thing with me.i think the game is great.but,my brother,2 of my friends,and the guy at gamecrazy who sold it to me all say"madden is better".by the way,customers at gamecrazy were asking questions like"whats wrong with it"? "there must be something wrong with it if it is only 20 dollars".even my wife,who dont play sports games asked me"isnt madden better?".

[RCM]

zmweasel wrote:

It's confirmed: SEGA is a budget publisher. It's kind of funny and kind of sad.

I wouldnt call them a budget publisher yet. Although that would be good for me.

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[lendelin]

Well, I'm glad that you agree in the meantime that the strategy is good in the short and long run for everyone if it works out; but now you question the prospects of the strategy and critisize it's rationality.



You avoided to address my substantial reasoning, and shifted the focus. (an old, but still not elegant strategy) I couldn't resist to interpret the silence about my reasoning as an agreement. ;)

Now you shift the focus again without addressing my reasoning, and you're back at your starting position. I don't like to go around in circles unless it's a good Nascar game. :)


The $20 MSRP is a desperate act from a desperate company.

That's what I said all along. The company as a whole is NOT desperate however, the ESPN franchise vs. Madden is in a desperate situation.

The Q is, does it make economic sense for Sega to do so, I explained why it makes a lot of sense, and I heard nothing against it except generalizxed statements.


SEGA certainly doesn't benefit by turning itself into a budget publisher, as an EA flack pointed out: "[SEGA is] signaling to consumers, retailers and the NFL that they are no longer selling a premium product."

Do you seriously think ONE game under unique specific conditions turns a company into a budget publisher? Do you seriously think Sega will offer other franchises new for $20? Do you seriously think Sega will turn into an altrusitic company and sell games to a budget price when they could get $50 unless they are forced to? That's ridiculous.

I wouldn't listen to PR of EA when it it comes to evaluating Segas move. That's EAs wishful thinking. I think gamers are intelligent enough to distinguish between a first-rate game and the retail price. I know I could when I bought Colin McRae 4 for $20.


The video game industry certainly doesn't benefit by having a misguided company trying to set a precedent of a $20 price point for A-list games.

That's a simplistic generalization at best. That's your big problem right there. Do you seriously think other companies consider now getting out firts-rate games for $20? Do you seriously think Segas move will spread like a wildfire? Which precedent does Segas move set for Nintendo or Ubi Soft when they release new games? I seriously doubt we'll get a new Zelda for $20, not for $30, and not for for $40.

To assume even for a moment that budget release prices will become the norm is ridiculous. Think more specifically, and more economically.

As I said, this low price level would be only detrimental and devastating in every aspect in the short and long run for the entire industry if it would be permanent and the norm. A moron can see that; but we are talking here about ONE game of ONE company in a very specific situation which was smashed in the past by a competitor despite offering a high-quality franchise. In this situation, it made a lot of economic sense what Sega did. I explained why, but didn't hear any reasoning against it.

Explain to me why and how Segas move might affect others, sets a bad precedent for the industry, and then you might convince me. :)


Not long ago, the industry was speculating about who's going to release the first $60 disc-format game (discounting Working Designs' PS1 packaging stunts), since development costs will skyrocket yet again with the next generation of hardware. Programming the mass market into expecting $20 MSRPs for new stuff would result in the swift demise of the few smaller publishers remaining in the biz.


Good that you brought that up. I remember well that you predicted that becasue of development costs games might increase in price becasue ONE game with an accessory was released for $60. Immediately speculations came up in the press based on simplistic generalizations. 'Will others follow now?' rivals the political screaming of "Does nobody think about our children?'

I explained back then that it doesn't make a minimum of economic sense to expect that MRSPs will go up, you insisted on it. Did it happen in the last year? Nope. Do MRSPs rather drop than increaselike I predicted? Yep. Will it happen in the near future (2 to 3 years?) Nope again.

Do you see a pattern here of hysterical and simplistic predictions? :)

I dislike to say 'I told you so,' but since you brought it up I just couldn't resist.

When I'll buy the Growlanser deluxe pack for $90, don't even think for a moment that other publishers consider a $60 price tag for their games in a very competitive market. It would be suicidal.


I don't have the faith you do that NFL 2K5 will seduce cheap bastards and curious Madden players into switching loyalties. The franchise has already been around for half a decade, and received gobs of glowing reviews and press coverage, and yet people still buy two million copies of Madden a year.


A certain percentage will for sure switch loyalties and/or will consider ESPN as a serious alternative or addition to Madden, that's as sure as the Amen in church. The uncertainty remains how many. That's the decisive issue, but that's what rational risk-taking is all about. You can't be sure, I can't be sure, Sega and EA can't be sure to what extent Sega is able to penetrate the Madden fanbase. It's tough, but in Segas situation it makes economic sense to try. They can always dicontinue the franchise next year if they have to.


I find it amusing that some of the same gamers who argue that the Nintendo DS will destroy the Sony PSP because of consumers' "loyalty" to Nintendo are ignoring that the best-selling sports-game franchise in the history of the industry has plenty of its own loyalty, having been around for as long as the Game Boy. But of course they have to ignore it, because it's SEGA (the "good guys") versus EA (the "bad guys").

Doesn't apply to me.

...but...aren't you as stubborn and short-sighted as the N fanboys you critisize? They insist that deep and longstanding loyalties are forever and don't give a serious competitor a chance. You insist that deep and long-standing loyalties for Madden are forever, and even a high quality game for an incredible price of $20 doesn't have the slightest chance to poke some holes in the Madden-loyalty wall. Granted, the PSP is an 'upstart' and new, and Segas franchise is old; couldn't a $20 price tag act as the functional equivalent of the 'new' factor?

I don't expect a 50/50 share in the next two years between ESPN and Madden, and I don't expect it for the GBA/DS and PSP; not to mention that ESPN will outsell Madden, that's completely unrealistic. (to others: save your money! :) ) ; but slowly to catch up and gain some ground is a realistic possibility for ESPN.

[lendelin]

It may not be just this game that is discounted:

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/sports/espnnflfootball2005/news_6103052.html

It's confirmed: SEGA is a budget publisher. It's kind of funny and kind of sad.

-- Z.

That's ridiculous. First, these are speculations in the press; second, even if Sega tries to sell two, or three, or let it be four franchises for $20, it doesn't make them a budget publisher nor does it set a prcedent for the industry.

It's a very rational business decision with prospects for ONE genre; the sports genre is the most competitive and most lucrative in the game industry, and it's clearly dominated by EA. The low price releases make a lot of economic sense as I explained. It's ONE genre, ONE or THREE games, characterised by very specific conditions. Don't fall for simplistic generalizations.

...and the low price strategy doesn't have a signbificant effect on the entire industry at all; 4 or 5 or even ten games are small fish compared to the total number of releases every year.

[zmweasel]

You avoided to address my substantial reasoning, and shifted the focus. (an old, but still not elegant strategy) I couldn't resist to interpret the silence about my reasoning as an agreement. ;)

As I've told you before, you posts are often too long and dense for me to wade through. I wish you could make your arguments with one-third as many words. I don't have the patience or energy to respond to your dozens of individual points, so I pick and choose what I consider to be the most relevant. If I'm silent about a particular point, I didn't consider it worth responding to, as opposed to silently agreeing with it.


That's what I said all along. The company as a whole is NOT desperate however, the ESPN franchise vs. Madden is in a desperate situation.

When a company gets bought out by a pachinko manufacturer, it's desperate. SEGA has been flailing for a decade. Its E3 lineup this year was depressing. I laugh to think that everyone expected SEGA to be the next EA when it announced its hardware agnoticism; instead, it's becoming the next Eidos.


The Q is, does it make economic sense for Sega to do so, I explained why it makes a lot of sense, and I heard nothing against it except generalizxed statements.

I gave you specific arguments as to why SEGA's kamikaze price point is a huge mistake. It limits them to a money-losing $20 on all its sports games henceforth, and it creates the perception of SEGA as a desperate budget publisher. It's throwing good money after bad in an almost spiteful attempt to gain market-share. Microsoft and Sony had the good sense to quit while they were behind, and they have vast financial resources in comparison to SEGA. Why didn't they attempt kamikaze price points? Because a first-party publisher publishing new stuff at $20 would be a DISASTROUS precedent.


Do you seriously think ONE game under unique specific conditions turns a company into a budget publisher? Do you seriously think Sega will offer other franchises new for $20? Do you seriously think Sega will turn into an altrusitic company and sell games to a budget price when they could get $50 unless they are forced to? That's ridiculous.

Guess what: SEGA's selling all its sports titles at a budget price. It's turned itself into a budget publisher. (Aided and abetted by co-publisher Take Two.)


I wouldn't listen to PR of EA when it it comes to evaluating Segas move. That's EAs wishful thinking. I think gamers are intelligent enough to distinguish between a first-rate game and the retail price. I know I could when I bought Colin McRae 4 for $20.

I quote EA's PR flack because, in this case, I completely agree with him.


That's a simplistic generalization at best. That's your big problem right there. Do you seriously think other companies consider now getting out firts-rate games for $20? Do you seriously think Segas move will spread like a wildfire? Which precedent does Segas move set for Nintendo or Ubi Soft when they release new games? I seriously doubt we'll get a new Zelda for $20, not for $30, and not for for $40.

No other companies are as desperate as SEGA, but it's an ugly precedent nonetheless. Gamers are already savvy to waiting a few months after a game's release to buy it at a marked-down price point, or a year for a Greatest Hits version. It wouldn't take much for them to start expecting $20 price points at launch.


Explain to me why and how Segas move might affect others, sets a bad precedent for the industry, and then you might convince me. :)

As I previously stated, it sets a bad precedent by robbing retailers of profits (as if SEGA hasn't alienated retailers enough over the past decade), robbing developers of royalties and forcing them to cut corners, casting SEGA as a budget publisher, and programming consumers to expect $20 price points for new releases.


Good that you brought that up. I remember well that you predicted that becasue of development costs games might increase in price becasue ONE game with an accessory was released for $60. Immediately speculations came up in the press based on simplistic generalizations. 'Will others follow now?' rivals the political screaming of "Does nobody think about our children?'

I vaguely recall predicting in that earlier thread that we'd see a $60 MSRP in the next generation of hardware (PS3, Xbox 2), and I'm sticking with that prediction. The price point you cite was an analyst using SOCOM as an example of a best-selling $60 game, and I vaguely recall saying that I foresaw a $60 price point with the next generation of hardware. Triple-A games have roughly the same MSRPs as they did 20 years ago, but cost many millions of dollars more to develop. That situation can't, and won't, exist much longer.


..but...aren't you as stubborn and short-sighted as the N fanboys you critisize? They insist that deep and longstanding loyalties are forever and don't give a serious competitor a chance. You insist that deep and long-standing loyalties for Madden are forever, and even a high quality game for an incredible price of $20 doesn't have the slightest chance to poke some holes in the Madden-loyalty wall. Granted, the PSP is an 'upstart' and new, and Segas franchise is old; couldn't a $20 price tag act as the functional equivalent of the 'new' factor?

The Nintendo fanbois crazily dismiss the initial portable system of a company that has utterly dominated the video game industry for a decade, and that has decades of experience in manufacturing best-selling portable electronics. I'm discouting the desperate price-point stunt of a (co-)publisher that has gotten its ass whupped by the Madden franchise for half a decade.

Another one of the almost infinite differences between fanbois and me is that I'm entirely willing to change my views in the face of compelling arguments and/or evidence. But none of your arguments convince me that SEGA has done the right thing.

-- Z.

[SoulBlazer]

I'm not convienced Sega has done the right thing either.

But right now I look at how things stand -- I have a great football game that I played most of the day today that I only paid $20 for and I'll still be playing (although not as much) in six months.

If MOST of the people who pick up ESPN NFL 2K5 feel the same way, then it's a victory for Sega. If not, well, then they tried their best.

Damn the reviews and EA fanboys in this case -- I'll still buy and play Madden, but I played NFL 2K4 all last year and I'll do the same thing with 2K5. There's no reason that both games can't be played and enjoyed. :)

[lendelin]

You avoided to address my substantial reasoning, and shifted the focus. (an old, but still not elegant strategy) I couldn't resist to interpret the silence about my reasoning as an agreement. ;)

As I've told you before, you posts are often too long and dense for me to wade through. I wish you could make your arguments with one-third as many words. I don't have the patience or energy to respond to your dozens of individual points, so I pick and choose what I consider to be the most relevant.


I apologize if my posts are too long. English isn't my native language, and sometimes I'm too long-winded, and sometimes I put too many specific reasons in my posts.

What you're doing isn't picking up relevant reasoning, it's avoiding relevant arguments. I haven't heard ONE argument against my reasoning why it makes sense for Sega in their situation to release this game for $20. If you have the energy to respond to minor points and shift the focus over and over again, I suspect you have the energy to respond to specific reasoning.

Then you shifted in the previous posts the focus and repeat that Sega's move is for the entire industry bad becasue it sets a bad precedent, which brings you back to the starting point while avoiding arguments.

You repeat the same general babble over and over again. That's avoiding a discourse, not engaging in it.

Someone can repeat a thousand times that civil unions of gay people undermine the concept of marriage, it doesn't say a lot. It's babble. I need a bit more. I need to be specific. I need some specific reasoning. That's how you THINK. I'm sorry if it is too much to ask to go through specific reasoning.

Finally you answered my Q about your core 'assumption' how and why Segas move sets a bad precedent for the indiustry:


As I previously stated, it sets a bad precedent by robbing retailers of profits (as if SEGA hasn't alienated retailers enough over the past decade), robbing developers of royalties and forcing them to cut corners, casting SEGA as a budget publisher, and programming consumers to expect $20 price points for new releases.


That's simplified babble, and partial repeats. I make it short not to overwhelm your energy level. :)

- retailers can simply stop carrying the game/s. It's their decision. Trust me, they are businessmen, they won't be easily robbed. :) Show me how a $20 price game robs retailers of profits if they sell MORE games at this price level compared to a $50 game which dropped after three months to $20 anyway becasue it sits on their shelf!

- robbing developers? same as above. They have clout, Sega has clout. It's their decision to develop a game or not.

- forcing developers to cut corners? Sure, that makes a lot of sense. You're up against a game of high quality which smashed you in the past although you had a comparable quality game, and now you try to catch up by offering a worse quality game. Makes a lot of sense.

- casting Sega as budget publisher? YOU cast Sega as a budget publisher. You take a baseball bat, hit someones kneecap with it, and then you blame him that he limps.

I'm not sure if the majority of gamers will perceive Sega as a cheap budget publisher with cheaply made games. You assume a lot and jump to conclusions.

- programming consumers to expect $20 new release prices? Geez, if consumers could be so easily programmed like that, it were paradise for executives.

But the questinable core of your assumption is still unanswered. HOW and WHY would this temporary price drop copied by other publishers? It is only dangerous if it gets copied; if others don't follow, your reasoning breaks down like a cardhouse.

We are talking here about ONE game, TWO games, or THREE games, let it be TEN games, it won't have any significant effect on the industry as a whole considering the total number of new games every year.

Do you think five games a year make a difference? Do you seriously think five games set a dangerous precedent which a Nintendo, Ubi Soft, Rockstar, and all the others follow under very different conditions if there is no need for them to do so?

Do you really think a GT4 won't be picked up becasue consumers got used to a $20 price tag? Do you really think the other publsihers would be so dumb and throw a profit away if there is no need for them to do so?

To make sure that you get the core of my argument: :) You generalize the startegy of ONE company, for ONE or FIVE of it's games, and jump to conclusions that others might follow. If you can't show me why other publishers in a very diffrent situation will follow in Segas footsteps, your statements don't make sense.

You can dismiss my arguments again as 'irrelevant' or hidden in long posts. I think they SMASH your general statements.

What's left of your dangerous precedent? NOTHING. It's simplistic. It's short-sighted, it's journalistic hysteria by guys who don't have a minimal background in economics.

Take two steps back, forget the surprise move by Sega, forget the excitement about it, forget PR statements, forget wild-goose speculations, and keep a cool head.

...then all what's left is a surprise move by Sega which is isolated, won't spread becasue there is no need for others to follow, and it's a relatively unimportant strategy as well for the industry as a whole.

You see a well secured campfire, and scream:' Look, watch out, it will develop to a wildfire!' Good for hysterical headlines, good for some excitement, very good for Sega (!!) as PR, but not good as a realistic assessment.

[lendelin]

Good that you brought that up. I remember well that you predicted that becasue of development costs games might increase in price becasue ONE game with an accessory was released for $60. Immediately speculations came up in the press based on simplistic generalizations. 'Will others follow now?' rivals the political screaming of "Does nobody think about our children?'

I vaguely recall predicting in that earlier thread that we'd see a $60 MSRP in the next generation of hardware (PS3, Xbox 2), and I'm sticking with that prediction. The price point you cite was an analyst using SOCOM as an example of a best-selling $60 game, and I vaguely recall saying that I foresaw a $60 price point with the next generation of hardware. Triple-A games have roughly the same MSRPs as they did 20 years ago, but cost many millions of dollars more to develop. That situation can't, and won't, exist much longer.


Just to referesh your memory: you predicted the price increase will happen for THIS generation of consoles, then you shifted the focus again, and then you were more careful saying they might increase for this generation of consoles, but surely for the next generation.

The reasoning back then was as simplistic as the reasoning now. Some analyst using Socom (and not the smartest coin in the fountain) gets quoted in a newspaper and says 'well, consumers get used to price increases, they don't mind, and development costs increased dramatically, so we'll see the $60 price tag very soon.'...and you fell for it.

It was the same simplistic assumption as your 'programming consumers with $20.' I can't believe that you repeated the argument again, which explains that you use the same simple reasoning for Segas move again.

I explained that developemnt costs increased dramatically, but also manufacturing costs decreased at an even higher rate, the companies have more capital, sell MORE games, and the competition is fierce in an expanding market. All of the above means we won't see a price increase for this console generation, and in all likelihood for the first half of the next console generation.

To argue that the mere rise of development costs will result in price increases becasue of ONE game with an accessory leaving out conveniently all other factors, and even worse leaving out the fact that companies make a very good profit in a competitive market and can adapt, is simple, short sighted, and a premature hysterical scream as the evaluation of Segas move is now.

At one point realistic thinking has to replace wild-goose speculations.


I gave you specific arguments as to why SEGA's kamikaze price point is a huge mistake. It limits them to a money-losing $20 on all its sports games henceforth, and it creates the perception of SEGA as a desperate budget publisher. It's throwing good money after bad in an almost spiteful attempt to gain market-share. Microsoft and Sony had the good sense to quit while they were behind, and they have vast financial resources in comparison to SEGA. Why didn't they attempt kamikaze price points? Because a first-party publisher publishing new stuff at $20 would be a DISASTROUS precedent.


That's a good example of a typical answer of yours. :)

First, you didn't give me any specific arguments despite stating so. Second, you just repeat in other words what you already stated (Sega looses money with the $20 release). Third, I showed that Sega would loose in all likelihood more moiney if they just discontinue the franchise, and in all liklihood won't loose money, and you just completely avoid them.

Not good, don't you think?

..and then you throw in Sony and MS, which is even worse. I ignored it becasue you can't compare their situation with Sega. It's a different issue. Don't even get me started on that.

Repeating stuff using other words don't get you anywhere. That is what politicians do in campaign speeches, and they are smarter than that behind closed doors.

You see, to below-the-beltline sarcasm I react aggressively which I don't usually do at all. I try to focus on the issue, never forget the initial issue of the discussion ('the price drop is bad for the industry in the long run') and try to keep it strictly non-personal.

I'm aware that I violated my rule not to be dragged down to a personal level. :)

[lendelin]

Zach, I don't know if it's such a bad idea from Sega's standpoint. A huge number of my casual gaming, Madden-only friends have bought ESPN 2k5 and love it; despite the glowing reviews, they'd never even bothered to try anything but Madden in the past. Many of them think that 2k5 is *better* than Madden 2004. There's a type of network effect (in the economics sense) with sports games: Once you learn the controls and get a group (online or off) playing together, you're likely to stick with the game in coming years.

I think it's clear that no one was going to knock off EA Sports without a radical change. The only times I can remember a non-EA football game doing well are Gameday in the mid-90s (because EA's Madden series didn't make the transition to full 3d fast enough) and NFL2k (because Madden wasn't online). Madden is a very good product, year-in, year-out. With its fanbase, simply scoring 5 stars in a review to Madden's 4.5 stars is not enough to pull in new fans.

Now, the $20 price point is dangerous for the industry as a whole, sure. Nonetheless, we are 4 years into this console cycle, and I would be surprised if budget games didn't begin to become more common. Further, sports games this far into a generation really are more of an expansion pack than a full title, so releasing 2k5 at 20 bucks is far less damaging to the industry's health than, say, Onimusha 3 at 20 bucks.

That said, I've heard rumors that EA will offer, in conjunction with some of the chains, a deal where you can trade in ESPN 2k5 and get Madden for a discounted price (20-30 bucks). Has anyone else heard this?

That's very reasonable. Word spread, in particular hyped speculations in the press spread the word about ESPN, more gamers get acquainted with ESPN as you said, it make s alot of sense for Sega to have taken this route. A high quality game for $20 HAS great appeal, we all think with our wallets to a certain degree.

It's a long-term strategy. ESPN won't outsell Madden for sure, it won't even come close, but they have a good chance to gain some ground.

Your points about the expansion pack character of these sports titles AND that these price drops happen in the second half of the console cycle to fight slow-down in sales (which always happens in the second half) are very good points.

I have nothing against it when Madden has to look back over it's shoulder to make sure that the little pittiful competitor won't come close. It's good for gamequality in the long run for both franchises IF ESPN survives.

[classicb]

OK I've been playing this game for three days straight and here is my bottom line: it won't out sell Madden but I don't really care as long as it sells enough for them to release a NFL2K6 and I would even pay $49.99 for it. :) Hey Sega mission acomplished.

[kevincure]

The economist is me is somewhat confused about game pricing in general, as well. We're no longer using cartridges, and the unit cost per game (marginal cost) is very, very low. Even after shipping, I can't imagine the marginal cost of an additional game is more than a couple dollars.

In any case, assume $5 marginal cost per game. Assume a $10 mil development budget for a big sports game. Assume half of the cost of a game goes to the publisher/developer. At $20, that $10 per game, or $5 profit. At $50, that's $25 per game, $20 profit. If a game like Madden does 2 million units / yr on System X at $50, then 8 million copies at $20 would result in the same profit. That would be rather extreme growth, but I'm one of the "every 2 or 3 year" buyers of sports games (I rotate hoops, football and soccer every year) and would surely buy a top-quality new sports title each year at the $20 price point. It just doesn't make sense that the price of videogames is so "sticky" at the $50 point.

Ironically, it wasn't always this way. Games on the Genesis varied from $30-$100 (Virtua Racing). The $50 point may have been average, but it wasn't strange to see a game like Shining Force at $70 or an NBA Jam at $40. The $50 price point is as damaging to the future of the industry as Sega's $20 point, because consumers notice the price increase more readily when the price of a good is standard. As an example, we all know that the mini-bag of Doritos costs 99 cents - it says so on the package, and nearly every store sells the bag at that price. A candy bar has no such fixed point, varying (where I live) from 35 to 80 cents. This variance makes price increases, which will eventually come to the videogame industry, much much easier to enact.

(Further, the $50 price point is pretty close to tacit collusion, to my mind, but what can ya do?)

[classicb]

The economist is me is somewhat confused about game pricing in general, as well. We're no longer using cartridges, and the unit cost per game (marginal cost) is very, very low. Even after shipping, I can't imagine the marginal cost of an additional game is more than a couple dollars.

In any case, assume $5 marginal cost per game. Assume a $10 mil development budget for a big sports game. Assume half of the cost of a game goes to the publisher/developer. At $20, that $10 per game, or $5 profit. At $50, that's $25 per game, $20 profit. If a game like Madden does 2 million units / yr on System X at $50, then 8 million copies at $20 would result in the same profit. That would be rather extreme growth, but I'm one of the "every 2 or 3 year" buyers of sports games (I rotate hoops, football and soccer every year) and would surely buy a top-quality new sports title each year at the $20 price point. It just doesn't make sense that the price of videogames is so "sticky" at the $50 point.

Ironically, it wasn't always this way. Games on the Genesis varied from $30-$100 (Virtua Racing). The $50 point may have been average, but it wasn't strange to see a game like Shining Force at $70 or an NBA Jam at $40. The $50 price point is as damaging to the future of the industry as Sega's $20 point, because consumers notice the price increase more readily when the price of a good is standard. As an example, we all know that the mini-bag of Doritos costs 99 cents - it says so on the package, and nearly every store sells the bag at that price. A candy bar has no such fixed point, varying (where I live) from 35 to 80 cents. This variance makes price increases, which will eventually come to the videogame industry, much much easier to enact.

(Further, the $50 price point is pretty close to tacit collusion, to my mind, but what can ya do?)

While I haven't produced anything recently as a producer I can say this. A DVD film shrink wrapped and shipped cost $1.29. That's on the indepedent level meaning less than 5000 units. So I would imagine that at the units that Sega is shipping they are spending around .79 a copy. The fact is advetising and licencing drives prices up. No comercials and no madden makes for a $20 game.

[lendelin]

btw, YOSHIM, you are personally responsible for this heated debate! You initiated this thread. :)

I may pick up ESPN Football tomorrow, just for the hell of it. :)

Is this game really so good as many of you say?

btw, a good bet would be if ESPN Football will sell three times as many games as last years game. Betting outselling Madden? That's thhrowing money out of the window. :)

[Jibbajaba]

Hey stinkies. I don't think anyone posted this yet (although I must admit I didnt read through all of lendelin's and zmweasels posts), but in todays Target add they have ESPN 2K5 on sale for $15.88. At that price there is no excuse not to pick this up unless you dont like football.

Chris

[SegaAges]

Well, I'm glad that you agree in the meantime that the strategy is good in the short and long run for everyone if it works out; but now you question the prospects of the strategy and critisize it's rationality.

Whaaa? I don't agree AT ALL. The $20 MSRP is a desperate act from a desperate company. SEGA certainly doesn't benefit by turning itself into a budget publisher, as an EA flack pointed out: "[SEGA is] signaling to consumers, retailers and the NFL that they are no longer selling a premium product."

The video game industry certainly doesn't benefit by having a misguided company trying to set a precedent of a $20 price point for A-list games.

Not long ago, the industry was speculating about who's going to release the first $60 disc-format game (discounting Working Designs' PS1 packaging stunts), since development costs will skyrocket yet again with the next generation of hardware. Programming the mass market into expecting $20 MSRPs for new stuff would result in the swift demise of the few smaller publishers remaining in the biz.

I don't have the faith you do that NFL 2K5 will seduce cheap bastards and curious Madden players into switching loyalties. The franchise has already been around for half a decade, and received gobs of glowing reviews and press coverage, and yet people still buy two million copies of Madden a year.

Remember two years ago, when SEGA blamed the series' disastrous head-to-head debut against Madden for a 13-billion-yen drop in its profit estimates? SEGA estimated that the game would sell at least five times more units than it actually did. This is a company with a decade-long track record of blunders. Dropping 2K5 to $20 is just the latest.

EA is going to gobble up all the sales that might have gone to Microsoft's NFL Fever or Sony's NFL GameDay, more than making up for any temporary gains SEGA experiences with its kamikaze price point.

I find it amusing that some of the same gamers who argue that the Nintendo DS will destroy the Sony PSP because of consumers' "loyalty" to Nintendo are ignoring that the best-selling sports-game franchise in the history of the industry has plenty of its own loyalty, having been around for as long as the Game Boy. But of course they have to ignore it, because it's SEGA (the "good guys") versus EA (the "bad guys").

-- Z.

I have not read all these posts, and have not read all of the post I am quoting, but I read the beginning of this post. I am also not one to get into debates here also, but I would love to hop into this.

I am not saying SEGA is good and EA is bad, but you need to look at both side bro.

Of course EA will say that SEGA is not pushing out a quality product if they are selling it cheaper then their product. Why? You may ask. I will tell you why. They do not want people to think that a budget title is anywhere near as good as their $50 game.

Dude, what is an A-List gamer. Is it the gamer that reserves the copy of Madden, or is it the person that buys Madden 2003 instead to save some money. I own Tiger Woods 2003, and bought it about a month ago. I bought it because I knew it would be cheaper, and I would still have a quality TW game. Am I not an A-List gamer because of this. Just for the record, I bought Enter the Matrix the day after it was released.

Now you may be saying, "This is stupid. Even you handle says that you love SEGA". Maybe, but I also own a PS2, GC, and XBox.

It is good that somebody is releasing a football game other than EA. To be completely honest, I can see, but could care less about the extra options in Madden 2003-2005. I also could care less about the extra options in the SEGA sports games. When I buy a game, I look for quality, not just a new roster and a few extra features. Yes, 1st Person mode is a gimmick to make people look twice at the game.

I get annoyed by Monopolies. I could not tell you why there are people that only own the Madden franchise on XBox and no other games (yes I do know multiple people like this). I also do not shop at Wal-Mart and still run Win ME because I don't want to give Microsoft $200 for an OS when I have one that works just fine that I paid $50 for.

Has SEGA gone budget and crappy? Ask the people in this thread alone if they like the game. Maybe I am coming from a wierd perspective, but I plan on making games after college (for a company). Am I doing it for the money? Hell no. If not for the money, why? All I want to get for myself from making games is to see people I know sitting down and enjoying my game. Is this why SEGA seems to not want to make a profit from this game? I don't know, ask them. It is obvious that they want to atract gamers. A smaller price tag will definately help with it. Will it steal loyal Madden people? I doubt it, but more people will be playing 2k5 than the 2k4 version.

Now for another issue: the cost of making this game. I noticed you threw in marketing. I have honestly not seen 1 commercial for advertisement for this game. Maybe I am watching the wrong channels and not reading the right magazines, but that also means that there are at least thousands more than are not reading the right magazine and not watching the right channels.

I am a collector, but I buy into hype just as much as any "casual" gamer.

I noticed you threw in something about the DS vs. PSP. I can only say one thing about it. There are already loyal fanbases for Playstation and Gameboy, so it will be awesome to see the games that come out of that war.

Back to the subject on hand. Who cares what an EA rep said about SEGA. Do you honestly think they will say anything positive against their competition (it doesn't matter how much of a competitor they are, but they are one). If my competitor was selling their game for 30 less than mine, I would find many, many bad things to say about it to make people think that it is better to shell out 30 more.

Wait?!? Does this make me cheap for spending less for the same quality of game? You are a collector. You can't sit there and tell me that you don't go shopping for things cheaper every once in awhile.

Everybody in this forum knows that SEGA purposely put the game out a little before Madden and for cheaper to make people notice it. Will it work though? It didn't for the Saturn. We are not talking about systems though, we are talking games. Now what if SEGA kept the $50 tag. I guarentee that gamers would look at the game and say, "Madden will be out in a few weeks. I'll just wait for that to come out" $20 is an eye grabber. Whether you want to hear about them or not, you know who SEGA is. You will see a football game for $20 and think about it. Just in this forum alone, there were people that bought the game because of the price, loved the game to death, told others that they enjoyed it, and got others to buy it. I only takes 1 person the spread the word dude.

Will this sell 1 million units? I don't know and I don't care.

Should Sony and Microsoft back out from making football games? hell no. I don't know what they were thinking. Club Acclaim pushed out crappy Mary Kate and Ashley games until they got sued by the Olsen twins themselves. What was the point of putting out all those crappy games? At least somebody will play them.

It is pretty obvious that SEGA is not trying to make money this year around by dropping the price. Even people that are debating against you have agreed to that. SEGA will not put their price up. Nobody will want to buy the game then. That would be dumb to have to pay more for the next year's version.

Maybe this is me talking by myself, but I do not like what has happened with some games. Is $50 really worth it for a few updates? The only madden game I own is Madden '97 for Saturn. Do A-List gamers, as you put it, care about this, no. Think about it though, is that newer version worth it?

Is SEGA misguided? Maybe, but they are still pushing out games. SEGA has been around about as long as Nintendo. Sure, they stopped making systems, but so did Atari, and many of Atari's newer games are very good.

Also, have you even played the game they are all talking about dude? Here is something I was told by a good friend of mine who tried his hand at homosexuality, "Don't knock it until you try it". This very same friend is getting married to his wife in 4 months. All I have read from you is you knocking SEGA and their attempts to even MAKE a football game and that the game is no good, sucks, and bargain bin material. At least play the game and let everybody know why you don't like the game. I bet you that your EA flack hasn't played this game. If you don't like the game, state why (as in you tried the game and don't like it because the graphics suck or something).

EA is trying to shut down this game because they don't want competition. With competition, you lose money. Even if this game sells 1000 untis, that is money that EA lost. Of course they will say bad things about the game and the company itself so that you won't go and buy the other sports games.

What does this all boil down to? 2 things. 1st, I ask way too many questions that I answer for myself and you guys. 2nd, play the game. You don't have to buy it, but play it. But please don't sit here and say you won't play it because it is cheaper. I know you are a collector, so is price really that much of a factor on quality? You know as well as I do that it is not.

[SegaAges]

This gets a small post because it is 4 in the morning over here and I don't even want to read through my own long post.

PLAY THE GAME!

If you don't like it, then take it back to the store and buy Madden.

In this whole heated debate, has either side even talked about the fact that many people are really enjoying this game?

Both sides play the game and then come back and continue the argument.

I am done typing for the night. Once you guys play it and come back, I should be awake enough to hop back into this argument

[SoulBlazer]

Someone mentioned commercials.

Yes, there ARE commercials for the game! Good ones, also. I've seen at least two different ones.

Where have I seen them? Why, on ESPN, of course. :D

(As Zach said in one of his comments in a Lunar hint guide, this last comment was brought to you by Duh! beers, the official sponsor of this thread) :P

I have'nt seem them on any other channel, though.

[brykasch]

Well to me I look at it this way. I never buy any sports game at full price ever. I will rent one, or borrow one from a friend, but a game that you can get for 5 dollars a year later anyone who pays that much for it is nuts imho. Sega is trying to get market share plain and simple, I like the strategy they are taking, they want to get the word out. Yes some people will buy both, and noone in their right mind would think nfl2k5 would outsell madden but if it can bridge the gap hell its worth it. Even at 29.99 its a steal.

Madden is not the be all end all of football games, they have had off years (97, gameday was rated much higher that year if I am not mistaken) and is to arcadey for my tastes. NFL2k5 was built from the ground up for xbox. And after ea's dissing of the dc and until this summer online for the xbox has turned me off to them as far as sports titles go.

But for the guy who brought the psp/gbsp debate into this. I believe the big N when they say something is in their system. I don't as far as sony goes. Even the game mags don't believe the finished products will not look as good as the film clips shown. Plus hell cd's for a gaming device. thats just asking to get scratched. DS has wi-fi, a great screen, the ability to play old and new and its 100 cheaper. I don't need a mp3, movie player, I need a handheld game device:)

[lendelin]

After the debate calmed down, let me add just one thing:

From the beginning of the debate, there are two Qs which are constantly intermingled but should be strictly distinguished:

First, was it an econimically rational, good strategy for Sega to take this route or was it a desparate, irrational act which doesn't make economic sense?

Second, does Sega's $20 dollar route affect the industry, and if so HOW? What consequences might have Sega's policy for the industry in general?

The first Q is a microeconomic issue, the second Q is a macroeconomic issue, and they have to be treated separately.

To 1): Sega does what's best for Sega. Only in extreme and fundamental decisions a company takes into account if a policy would hurt the entire industry, which would backfire and hurt itself in the end. (that's the little secret of oligopolies)
I tried to explain why it makes all the sense in the world for Sega to choose such a policy. It's a rational move which has prospects of success (= gaining some ground, not leapfrogging ;) ) in a situation in which the biggest competitor is on the edge of a monopoly.

To 2): Sega's move is isolated. Even if another publisher will choose the same policy (if it's a success, this will happen) in a similar situation, the impact on the industry as a whole is insignificant. The market situations of different publishers is too different and heterogeneous so that this policy can be adapted by others when there is no need to do so; similarly, the microeconomic conditions of the publishing landscape (from the biggest to the smallest publisher) is very heterogenious and shouldn't be homogenized.

Only if a good portion of publsihers would follow in Segas footsteps (let's say publsihers with altogether 20% marketshares), then we would have a a very serious problem. Then others would be forced to be dragged into the same policy. This disastrous possibility is unrealistic, and I tried to explain why.

Becasue of all of the above, Segas moveis not a "dangerous precedent."

Let's assume the best and worst case scenario. Sega's move is a success, it gets copied by one or two other publsihers in a similar situation; the end result is changing a near monopoly for a section of a genre or an entire genre. That's a good thing for sure. The policy won't spread for the reasons above.

The worst case scenario: Sega looses lots of money, damages it's reputation as a cheap budget publisher, and gets out of business.; let's assume they go out of business TOMORROW; economically (!) it's utterly insignificant. Sega is one developer among many (and not the most powerful one). If one developer among 100 disappears, the impact for the industry as a whole is neglectible (unless the marketshare of the developer is let's say around 10%).

In this case, the policy won't spread either becasue it proved to be a disastrous route, and noone would follow the path of doom.

Does this make sense? it makes a lot of sense to me. We have to go beyond the simplistic 'low budget prices? bad signal and terrible consequences for others' - headlines.

Low prices can be an indicator of the healthiest indusrtry and an indicator of a stagnant industry which leads to a 'collapse.' For themselves they don't say a thing. They have to be put into context.

[zmweasel]

I apologize if my posts are too long. English isn't my native language, and sometimes I'm too long-winded, and sometimes I put too many specific reasons in my posts.

Perhaps the language barrier between us is the problem. To that end, I'll avoid debating you in future threads, to avoid the frustration, confusion and condescension that inevitably results.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

While I haven't produced anything recently as a producer I can say this. A DVD film shrink wrapped and shipped cost $1.29. That's on the indepedent level meaning less than 5000 units. So I would imagine that at the units that Sega is shipping they are spending around .79 a copy. The fact is advetising and licencing drives prices up. No comercials and no madden makes for a $20 game.

Check out Bill Swartz's PowerPoint presentation of his GDC speech, "Follow the Money," for an extremely enlightening examination of the economics of the video game industry: http://www.gdconf.com/archives/2004/swartz_bill%20.ppt

-- Z.

[digitalpress]

I apologize if my posts are too long. English isn't my native language, and sometimes I'm too long-winded, and sometimes I put too many specific reasons in my posts.

Perhaps the language barrier between us is the problem. To that end, I'll avoid debating you in future threads, to avoid the frustration, confusion and condescension that inevitably results.

-- Z.

Awww.... :(

I was rather enjoying the debate! I think both of you make very valid points, and keep in mind - as frustrated as two "primary combatants" may be in a controversial subject, it's VERY interesting to everyone else as long as it remains civil.

Thanks to both of you for the compelling reading. I mean that!

[zmweasel]

Of course EA will say that SEGA is not pushing out a quality product if they are selling it cheaper then their product. Why? You may ask. I will tell you why. They do not want people to think that a budget title is anywhere near as good as their $50 game.

I realize why an EA flack would make that statement. I just happen to agree with it. The $20 price point reeks of desperation and lowered quality, even if the latter isn't the case.


Dude, what is an A-List gamer. Is it the gamer that reserves the copy of Madden, or is it the person that buys Madden 2003 instead to save some money. I own Tiger Woods 2003, and bought it about a month ago. I bought it because I knew it would be cheaper, and I would still have a quality TW game. Am I not an A-List gamer because of this. Just for the record, I bought Enter the Matrix the day after it was released.

I'm talking about A-list GAMES. The $50 marquee titles that receive the mega-marketing pushes. I never referred to "A-list gamers."


I noticed you threw in something about the DS vs. PSP. I can only say one thing about it. There are already loyal fanbases for Playstation and Gameboy, so it will be awesome to see the games that come out of that war.

I agree, and I've stated as much in previous posts in other threads.


Should Sony and Microsoft back out from making football games? hell no. I don't know what they were thinking. Club Acclaim pushed out crappy Mary Kate and Ashley games until they got sued by the Olsen twins themselves. What was the point of putting out all those crappy games? At least somebody will play them.

Sony was thinking "The GameDay franchise is getting pounded so hard by critics and at retail that we should postpone future releases until we can develop a competitive product."

Microsoft was thinking "The NFL Fever franchise is a non-starter--and if we don't kill it, EA Sports won't support Xbox Live."


Is SEGA misguided? Maybe, but they are still pushing out games. SEGA has been around about as long as Nintendo. Sure, they stopped making systems, but so did Atari, and many of Atari's newer games are very good.

SEGA is still making games, but it hasn't lived up to the expectations that many in the industry had for it. SEGA was supposed to be a major player in the industry, right up there with EA and THQ. Instead, it's floundering. SEGA's PS2 offerings have been underperformers. This year's E3 lineup was very disappointing (and SEGA couldn't even swing a booth in the main halls, settling for a "ghetto" concourse space). It's a company that isn't living up to its promise or its legacy.


Also, have you even played the game they are all talking about dude?

The game is great. One of my cohorts from Working Designs is on the development team, so I'm inclined to enjoy the game by default. (He was a lineman on a high-school state-champ football squad, so he's got a little Madden-esque wisdom happening.)

I'm strictly speaking about the bid-ness repercussions of SEGA's kamikaze price point. lendelin sees it as no big thang, an isolated incident and a cunning move by SEGA to break the chokehold that Madden has on the football genre. (Maddens 2002, 2003, and 2004 have each sold roughly two million copies, ranking them as three of the seven best-selling PS2 games in the North American history of the console.) I see it as a very big thang, a desperate act that could have severe repercussions. But we shall see.

-- Z.

[lendelin]

I apologize if my posts are too long. English isn't my native language, and sometimes I'm too long-winded, and sometimes I put too many specific reasons in my posts.

Perhaps the language barrier between us is the problem. To that end, I'll avoid debating you in future threads, to avoid the frustration, confusion and condescension that inevitably results.

-- Z.

I don't think it's the language barrier; sometimes I can hit the nail on the head w/o being verbose.

It was a heated debate, but I think we stayed relatively civil.

I realize that I was condescending in the end; and for that I apologize (!!) Usually I'm not codescending, I just enjoy a good discourse and try to be specific. I genuinly enjoy a good discourse and don't take it seriously at all. After all, good thoughts are like good food and good sex - you relax, sit back, and enjoy.

I was disturbed by your comment that my posts are too long and dense, and perceived it as an excuse to circumvent substantial arguments. I shot back in a condescending way which I shouldn't have; I clearly overreacted. Even if my perception were right, it's no excuse to belittle others.

It was my fault to belittle you, and question your background knowledge; usually I don't go this path even with an 18 yr old undergrad becasue everyone can have great reasoning which can put evry expert to shame. For my condescending way I apologize.

I never hold a grudge, and I'm always open for a good debate. Good debates are too enjoyable to be avoided. I regret if you choose not to engage in a discourse with me again, but can't do anything about your decision. I will keep it very civil if you decide to change your mind.

I went through too many discussions to take them too seriously. There was only one discussion which turned my stomache around, that was a panel discussion with two self acclaimed fascists. Otherwise, good debates are always good. :)

I will avoid to respond to your posts directly until you change your mind in order to avoid future unnecessary heat.

[lendelin]

I apologize if my posts are too long. English isn't my native language, and sometimes I'm too long-winded, and sometimes I put too many specific reasons in my posts.

Perhaps the language barrier between us is the problem. To that end, I'll avoid debating you in future threads, to avoid the frustration, confusion and condescension that inevitably results.

-- Z.

Awww.... :(

I was rather enjoying the debate! I think both of you make very valid points, and keep in mind - as frustrated as two "primary combatants" may be in a controversial subject, it's VERY interesting to everyone else as long as it remains civil.

Thanks to both of you for the compelling reading. I mean that!

It got a bit too heated, and that was primarily my fault. Overall, I think the debate was 'relatively' civil, without cheap personal attacks, not to mention insults; but I made the mistake to belittle others, and the path "hell, what do YOU know?' is never a good path and is a big obstacle for an exchange of good reasoning, and even more so an obstacle to focus on the issue; in the end it leads to a struggle bewteen egos, and the issue is lost; and this doesn't make sense at all.

Nevertheless, glad that you enjoyed it. :)

I still hold YOSHIM responsible for all this; he started it all. (kidding of course) Well, what do you expect from a Wisconsinite who plays ESPN NFL with the Steelers as his favorite team?? :)

[Captain Wrong]

Of course EA will say that SEGA is not pushing out a quality product if they are selling it cheaper then their product. Why? You may ask. I will tell you why. They do not want people to think that a budget title is anywhere near as good as their $50 game.

I realize why an EA flack would make that statement. I just happen to agree with it. The $20 price point reeks of desperation and lowered quality, even if the latter isn't the case.

I think this is the crux of the whole debate. While I can understand how someone can get desperation and lowered quality out of it, I don't see it that way. I see this like many other people do as a loss leader of sorts. By dropping the price, Sega can get people into the franchise who might not otherwise check it out. Kind of like when a supermarket sells an encyclopedia set and volume A is 99 cents. It doesn't mean that the book is low quality, they're just hoping to snare you with the inital taste for cheap.

Now, here's an entirely different line of thought: what exactly are the development costs on a franchised sports game like this? I'm assuming that you don't create an enritely new game engine each year. I don't play these games, so this is just what it looks like to an outsider, but aren't the yearly updates mostly tweaks, roster changes and a new feature or two? Is it possible that these games are cheaper on average to produce and could sell at a lowered price point without dipping into the bottom line?

[Griking]

Here's my $.02 on the subject


Whaaa? I don't agree AT ALL. The $20 MSRP is a desperate act from a desperate company. SEGA certainly doesn't benefit by turning itself into a budget publisher, as an EA flack pointed out: "[SEGA is] signaling to consumers, retailers and the NFL that they are no longer selling a premium product."

I'm a consumer and I'm not being fooled into thinking that Sega is reinventing themsef as a budget / 3rd rate software making company. And just because a game is enexpensive does not necessarily mean that it's not a quality game. No more so than saying that because a game is $50 it has to be an excellent game.


I don't have the faith you do that NFL 2K5 will seduce cheap bastards and curious Madden players into switching loyalties. The franchise has already been around for half a decade, and received gobs of glowing reviews and press coverage, and yet people still buy two million copies of Madden a year.


I think you're looking at this the wrong way, Sega isn't targeting only the cheap "bastards" (I'm not a cheap bastard). Sega is simply trying to convince MAdden fans to try a second football game this year and they're making it easy for us by making the game inexpensive. The hope is that once they try it they might decide that they may like it better than EA's offering and then buy next years release as well. I expect next year's edition to be more normally priced but still less than the MAdden one. Most likely around $39.99. (

[goatdan]

Doesn't anyone else remember how when the N64 came out, people said that the PSX would be able to cream it because games could be released for $20.00 or less because of the media that they were made on, while the N64's games would be so expensive to produce because of the cartridges.

That never happened. PSX games never had a majorly lower price, although the industry said it would be great. Neither have PS2, Xbox or Gamecube games for that matter. I think it is possible to make a game and sell it for a lower price point if the game then sells much more than what it would have at a higher price point. *If* this does change the industry to start releasing games at a lower price point, the industry will adjust, not just sit there and panic and go bankrupt as a whole. And I wouldn't mind one bit.

I don't usually purchase sports games because I don't find them worth $50.00 from year to year. In fact, other than buying NBA 2K1 for my Dreamcast for $20.00 used in 2001, I have never purchased a sports game when it was current. I haven't felt that the value was good enough. I was planning on purchasing a cheap football, basketball and baseball game for my Xbox, and had been looking into options... but I didn't want to spend more than $20.00 on one, and I thought I'd be waiting for a long time.

With NFL 2K5 being released at $20.00, I plan on picking it up. I will also get NBA 2K5 when it is released. I would never, ever had bought these games or any others at $50.00 apiece. I think it is the gamers like me that Sega is going after -- the ones that will wait and purchase a sports game when it gets really cheap, but wouldn't mind getting a great game for a good price. While Madden may be better, for a savings of $30.00, I will happily get this game. I think others are in this boat -- and I think that is the exact target audience that Sega went for -- the "premium" football game is Madden. The budget football game (whether a better game or not...) is NFL 2K5. That fills a different niche, their sports franchises have a better oppurtunity to sell more, and all is well.

I think it is a good move. It will get me to invest in at least two games that I wouldn't have otherwise bought.

[lendelin]

With NFL 2K5 being released at $20.00, I plan on picking it up. I will also get NBA 2K5 when it is released. I would never, ever had bought these games or any others at $50.00 apiece. I think it is the gamers like me that Sega is going after -- the ones that will wait and purchase a sports game when it gets really cheap, but wouldn't mind getting a great game for a good price.

I think it is a good move. It will get me to invest in at least two games that I wouldn't have otherwise bought.

That's exactly what Sega tries to do; to become slowly a potential alternative to Madden, and indeed, they are after buyers like you.

They will sell MORE than the prequel, the Q is how many.

There is a danger, though, that this game will be perceived or labeled as 'cheap' because of the low price. What Sega 'hopes' is that reviews in game mags and internet sites, discussions in forums on the net, and last but not least by word of mouth will counteract this tendency. Remains to be seen, but there is a good chance this will happen; coupled with a lucrative price and game quality, this route makes sense and has good prospects to succeed.

I think the concern about Segas move is more rooted in irrational disbelief and surprise than in economic rationality. This price policy is uncommon in the game industry, and the historical significance of SEGA and it's positive image did the rest to fuel exaggerated concern. Segas route is very common in other industry branches and hardly gets a yawn if it is well founded.

I think it's also good for retailers and come to the extreme opposite conclusion than zmweasel. What retailers hate with a passion (like every good businessman) is uncertainty. How many games to order of a $50 MSRP game which sits on their shelf and drops to terrible low price levels months after its release is uncertain, a big risk and loss for retailers.

BEST BUY wasn't happy when they had to get rid of NFL 2K3 (GC) for TEN (!) DOLLARS seven months after the release. (I bought the game as a gift for the son of a friend) A $20 new release price is less risky for retailers, they can do an easier cost calculation, and they prefer to re-order a game than putting it in a value bin.

However, the possible consequence for retailers isn't at the center of the concerns.

The crux of the 'dangerous precedent'-proposal is still the unlikelihood that this policy spreads due to big obstacles: the heterogeneity of the publishing landscape! The heterogeneity of the market situation for groups of publishers which they face (variety of number and type of competitors with different patterns of marketshares; genres with very different marketshares; number of games across and within platforms with different patterns of marketshares), and the heterogeneity of the publishers themselves at the microeconomic level results in mere marginal situations for a few publishers which would choose such an option as a realistic and advantegous strategy.

In other words: there are simply not enough conditions and publishers which would choose following Segas route if it turns out to be a success.

Unless someone shows me how and why this policy would spread to other publishers, the 'dangerous precedent'- proposal is not comvincing.

[digitalpress]

Just got the game yesterday (I guess I pre-ordered with some kind of media rate shipping) and it is fantastic.

The integration with ESPN's televised football coverage is just amazing. I watch quite a lot of ESPN and they nailed it all - the graphics used during the program, the moments that are typically captured in replays in the angles they're typically captured in, the stats. Berman's half-time and post-game summaries are just great fun. A few of these things don't work all that well, like the interviews on the field that for some reason still sound like they're in the studio, but overall this is a top-notch presentation of the game.

I only got in two games so I can't really get into the controls too much. They're complicated though there's just enough info on the screen and intuitively pressed to keep you in the plays. I didn't have too much trouble with the running game, in fact I broke one free for an 80-yarder in my second game. Still, if you don't follow the play you'll get buried behind the line of scrimmage most of the time. Nice. Passing and defense is pretty straightforward though it's clear that if you learn all of the secondary button functions you'll do much better with both.

Haven't tried the inside the helmet or the cribs mode though I did play with these briefly last year (I rented the game last time). As long as they didn't change it completely I'm sure they're nice extras.

Good move or bad from Sega, the game itself is STELLAR and though you've heard it from a bunch of people already, if you haven't purchased it yet, the time is NOW!

[classicb]

Haven't tried the inside the helmet or the cribs mode though I did play with these briefly last year (I rented the game last time). As long as they didn't change it completely I'm sure they're nice extras.


The helmet cam is a real chalange. Try passing with that mode. It's still a lot of fun, its almos like two games in one.

Once you get a hold of the controlls you'll be raising the difficulty level.

[goatdan]

=There is a danger, though, that this game will be perceived or labeled as 'cheap' because of the low price. What Sega 'hopes' is that reviews in game mags and internet sites, discussions in forums on the net, and last but not least by word of mouth will counteract this tendency. Remains to be seen, but there is a good chance this will happen; coupled with a lucrative price and game quality, this route makes sense and has good prospects to succeed.

Well, the other thing to look at is that since I bought the game last night, I have played it for a while and I can honestly say that I really like it a lot. With only a few small things that I haven't fully understood yet, I really think it is incredible and worth the $15.88 price (got it at Target last night :D ). I purchased the game because it was cheap, and I can already see that the gameplay is not cheap.

If the people that are calling the game cheap are the big Madden fans of the world who aren't playing it, that's not a big deal. If the people that are calling the game cheap are the people who bought it and didn't like it, then that is a problem. I don't see that happening with this game though.

[kevincure]

OK, now that I'm into my season a bit more...

Some of the animations are rather strange. I kick semipro football, and the kicking animations (especially the kickoff) look ludicrous. The graphics on the whole are fantastic though, especially the tackling. That said, EGM claims Madden's animations are even better, which would be incredible.

The weekly Sportscenter is a good idea, poorly implemented. How about video highlights of each game, and more than one play? Same with the crib. Why would I want to play Jamie Kennedy or Steve-O's VIP? How about Brett Favre or Terrell Owens' VIPs?

The VIP system as a whole works quite well for "playing" your friends when they're not around.

Like every football game, they need better commentary. At least the commentators understand when an interception is crucial leading to a field goal. But Chris Berman called a pick by a team winning 24-0 "a potential momemtum-shifter", the in-game announcers talk about antelopes and lions on a daily basis (or so it seems), and in my last game, the announcers didn't seem to realize that a 30-yard TD run was the winning run in OT. They just talked over the replay like it was just a pedestrian TD.

Gameplay-wise, the transitition from Madden to 2k is very quick. I started a season at All-Pro and all of my games are competitive (I'm 2-3 right now, incl. and overtime loss). The Blitz is too powerful - I can pick up 6 sacks a game against the computer without trying on AllPro difficulty. The ground game is difficult, but fair - my ground averages are 3-3.5/carry, which is near the NFL average. My passing stats are also close to NFL numbers, which was not the case with my last Madden game (Madden 03). I also like the secondary control better in 2k than in Madden. There were way too many big passing plays in Madden; I would tap for a sack and it would already have switched to my cornerback in Madden, making the CB dive and leaving the WR wide open for a TD. That has never happened to me in 2k. Madden's kicking game is superior.

The "training" in Franchise Mode is pointless. Who wants to schedule weight routines for each player? I'd prefer a 5-minute series of drills that would get your players ready or something along those lines.

It's not great, but it's a very solid game.

[Gamereviewgod]

If your getting too many sacks, play with the sliders. Those things make the game so much more playable for everyone, it's scary. I finally found the perfect match for me and now have very competitive games, but can still get taken out if I screw up.