Manhunt in the dock ...

[Vroomfunkel]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/3934277.stm

Depraved killing blamed on depraved game.

Of course, there is no way to possibly prove that the game induced the action - but it seems likely that the method was in some way inspired by the game.

It's a tough issue .. and I certainly wouldn't want to argue it with friends or family of the deceased. But by their reasoning we should also be banning all violent films, music and literature as well .. hmmm.

Vroomfunkel

[-hellvin-]

"The boy had been hit so hard with the hammer he had suffered deep cuts to his head and neck. His head had been fractured in several places."

How the fuck do people get so sick in the head? I usually don't think games are responsible for violence in people but this one I don't see any other explanation....I hope this boy sits in a cold jail of rape for the rest of his life.

[Dahne]

No one ever seems to consider that the "obsession" with a violent game was just a symptom...That it was his already violent nature that led him to seek it out.

[calthaer]

Stefan's mother described Leblanc, who confessed to police moments after the assault, as "inherently evil".

People are already "inherently evil." The game doesn't help, but can't carry all the blame. People like to have scapegoats, though - it gives them warm fuzzies to think that they would never do such a thing.

[RJ]

You dont score/get points in Manhunt.

[Vroomfunkel]

You dont score/get points in Manhunt.

Well, not as such. But points are merely a method of measuring progress through a game. And you cannot deny that in Manhunt, you progress through the game by committing increasingly gruesome and violent murders.

Vroomfunkel

[tholly]

just another example of a game being used as a scapegoat for the wrong doings of a troubled teen

[kai123]

Wow this is the first murder I have ever heard of where someone used a hammer of some kind. What will people start using next? :P Just another senseless murder.

[GodMedia]

No one ever seems to consider that the "obsession" with a violent game was just a symptom...That it was his already violent nature that led him to seek it out.

Where are parents these days? It was they who should have been paying more attention to their son, watching what he was interested in and how he reacted to it. It was they who should have been aware of the tendencies of their son and to have provided an environment appropriate so that their son would not be prone to doing exactly this sort of thing.

The kid was just 17, still not an adult, still a ward of his parents. I, for one, cannot believe that he had not displayed any other kind of symptom of the violence that was unleashed on his victim at any time previous. If he was known to be 'obsessed' with the game, their had to be other signs. How did others know of his obsession? There had to be signs.


Wow this is the first murder I have ever heard of where someone used a hammer of some kind. What will people start using next? Just another senseless murder.

Here again. We have so many people foolishly trying to legislate control over everything from guns to videogames to movies to pictures on candy bars as if controlling things will somehow control people. That's just not how it works. To those with serious mental incapacities anything can become perverted into a cause and anything can be converted into a tool for the unthinkable.

Better control of the household is the key. But, no one wants to admit that. We are so deluded into thinking that our liberal and democratic ways are so superior to good old-fashioned discipline and structure, but look what has happened. This kid was probably being brought up by a couple of laid back folks who let him have whatever he wanted and never checked up on him for fear of "hurting his creative side." Well, folks, I think killing a 14-year-old kid with a hammer and a knife in the park is pretty damned creative, don't you?

Heck, the kid probably got the game as a gift, or he bought it himself. Parents that don't care what their kids are doing are like that, they let them have anything so long as the kid stays out of their way. Well, that kid is out of everybody's way, for a bit anyways. Then again, this B.S. defense of "The Game Made Me Do It" might just work with the liberal fools that are running our courts into the ground and he'll be free in a little under a year to go out and kill somebody else by eating them up and then blaming his whole behavior on PacMan.

[robotriot]

Btw, all copies of Manhunt were confiscated in Germany a couple of days ago. Don't know if that's the right way to handle this situation ...

[The_EniGma]

THE Question is thast this game is rated


18+

it was his parents fault he owned it in the first place

END OF DISCUSSION

[Cauterize]

its a good point enigma, but are you saying youve never played a game when you were too young for it?
its just people covering up teenage problems with games.. usual the old loosers in the goverment who cant play them grade them as destructive to the mind etc... its jsut some pathetic politions dirty work...

Note: Was front cover of the daily mail today... how sad!

[Vroomfunkel]

UPDATE

Manhunt pulled from shelves of several major UK retailers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/3936597.stm

I do find it interesting how the people who are most critical of those who suggest a connection between violent games and violent behaviour frequently make equally unsupported assertions to the contrary!

Example:


We have so many people foolishly trying to legislate control over everything from guns to videogames to movies to pictures on candy bars as if controlling things will somehow control people. That's just not how it works. To those with serious mental incapacities anything can become perverted into a cause and anything can be converted into a tool for the unthinkable.

Nice theory. Evidence? Not needed, it seems. As the article above mentions, little or no research has been done into the long-term effects of playing such games - so let's not pretend that we "know" that they had no influence in this instance any more than others might be sure that they were the cause.

Vroomfunkel

[GodMedia]

We have so many people foolishly trying to legislate control over everything from guns to videogames to movies to pictures on candy bars as if controlling things will somehow control people. That's just not how it works. To those with serious mental incapacities anything can become perverted into a cause and anything can be converted into a tool for the unthinkable.

Nice theory. Evidence? Not needed, it seems. As the article above mentions, little or no research has been done into the long-term effects of playing such games - so let's not pretend that we "know" that they had no influence in this instance any more than others might be sure that they were the cause.

Vroomfunkel[/quote]

I think you missed my point. I never stated that the game had NOTHING to do with the actions of this young man, my point was that it NOT JUST the game that caused this to happen. Responsible parents would have seen and taken action on ALL of the reasons why this kid did what he did, including the game.

In short, maybe I was wrong to not state clearly that I am of the opinion that games ALONE are the reason for the rise in violent acts in aour society. Banning games altogether is not the answer as games ALONE do not necessarily lead to violence. Responsible actions by those in charge of minors is EQUALLY important.

[Hep038]

You know its easy to blame video games because most parents do not understand them. But I know if my kid got obsessed with any one thing I would be worried. If everyday my kid came home and wanted to play super Mario brothers , and that is all he talked about even when he was not playing it , at some point I would ask him to take a break from playing the game. Maybe go outside or even try playing a different game. And if he refused then I would take it away from him until he forgot about it. I am sure he would find something else to entertain himself.

[Vroomfunkel]

OK Mr. GM .. perhaps I misread you .. but the generic point I was making is valid, I think. Many people - especially gamers (of which I am one) - are reluctant to even consider the possiblity that maybe there is a connection, possibly even a strong connection, between violence in video games and violence in real life.

I'm not suggesting that if there is a link, that banning the game would necessarily solve the problem. But perhaps it might reduce the problem? If it could be shown that this was the case, would banning these sort of games be a reasonable thing to do?

It's a toughie .. I have played and quite enjoyed violent games, such as GTA3 and State of Emergency. However I don't think I would have lost a great deal from my life if I could not have played them. And compared to the value of even a single human life, the fact that I might have missed out on a little fun does not rank very highly.

I am not saying here that banning violent games definitely would save lives .. only that if it could be shown that banning ultra-violent games did have a positive effect, then I can't think of a reason why I would not support that ban.

And of course responsible care of minors is important - but then nobody is denying that. The Entertainment and Leisure Software Publishers' Association, on the other hand, can't wait to deny any possiblity of a connection
... we reject any suggestion or association between the tragic events and the sale of the video game Manhunt. This is the perfect illustration of my first point! How can they 'reject any suggestion' of a link? It's a palpably absurd thing to say.

The fact is, there are many programmes and initiatives to try to address the issue proper care for minors. The question is, is there anything else that could be done? And if so, why not do it?

Vroomfunkel

[kai123]

This kid was nuts. His parents didn't give a shit about him, and left him to deal with his own problems. If he had a parent there who talked to him and tried to help him through his problems the other kid may be alive today.
They just need to enforce the rating system. If they had penalties against shops for selling them to minors then this wouldn't be an issue.


Manhunt will be a future rarity in Europe.

[Vroomfunkel]

Once again, glad to see that you have some firm evidence for your claim that


They just need to enforce the rating system. If they had penalties against shops for selling them to minors then this wouldn't be an issue.


Yes, the kid was nuts. Yes, it is possible his parents did not perform a proper duty of care towards him. And no matter how much you try, there will also be children in this kind of situation in our society. So why not do what we can avoid giving them this kind of inspiration?

And if, by your own theory, enforcing the rating system that prevents children from buying the game would help the situation (I don't necessarily agree that it would, but I am just following your reasoning), surely it is logical that banning the game outright would be even better - because if the game is available at all, kids are always going to be able to get irresponsible adults to buy it for them. If the game is not available, they simply can't get it.

Yes, I am playing devil's advocate somewhat here, because I don't necessarily think that .. but these are fairly important issues and these easy denials of any connection by games developers and distributors are remarkably similar to the way that tobacco companies will aggressively deny any link between cigarrettes and cancer ... I'd rather at least consider all possiblities, and hear some actual evidence for some of these claims from both sides.

Vroomfunkel

[chaoticjelly]

I was listening to this on the radio today at work and I thought hmm here we go again..

No proof that the game made the guy do what he did.. but yes, people need scapegoats.

It's annoying how the people putting pen to paper have probably never played Manhunt.. as the victims father says, that he doesnt play the games himself...

And I mean, look at GTA, when that first came out, people were saying "It encourages kids to joy ride and run people over in cars", now it's tame!! it's the tamest of the tame! just like movies 40 years ago.

I play violent games and they don't make me a violent person!

Also if you look at the story on the BBC site, and head over to the sky.com/news site

There are differences in the story. Mistakes. At one point referred to as "Manhunter", also the BBC story said that ELSPA said that they denied connections to the game, whereas the SKY site, has the correct version IMHO, that ROCKSTAR denid that there were connections to the game.. (i.e. the publisher...)

Does anyone remember Half Life Blue Shift being banned in Australia? because you could get a gun from a security guard, they said it encouraged people to kill security guards, and could happen in real life....

To me this just looks like some really screwed up guy from a bad background that did a terrible thing. You've got to sympathise with the victims parents though... terrible...

[Vroomfunkel]

I think pretty much everything has been banned in Australia :o I am sure one of the reports I read said that Manhunt had been banned in Oz. I belive Night Trap was also. And several others.

Like I said, I find it a difficult issue. I am almost as uneasy about Australia's heavy censorship as I am about the UK's minimal controls.

And, thinking about it, I am pretty sure that most people would support some level of censorship. How many people here would think it OK to release a game that involved a the central character scoring points by committing violent rapes .. or child rapes?

If anyone thinks that this would be unacceptable, the question is why would we choose to ban that, but not a game that features pre-meditated brutal murder? After all, murder carries a heavier sentence than rape in most countries .. why is the former acceptable in video games and the latter not?

Vroomfunkel

[Blendo75]

It's a toughie .. I have played and quite enjoyed violent games, such as GTA3 and State of Emergency. However I don't think I would have lost a great deal from my life if I could not have played them. And compared to the value of even a single human life, the fact that I might have missed out on a little fun does not rank very highly.

I am not saying here that banning violent games definitely would save lives .. only that if it could be shown that banning ultra-violent games did have a positive effect, then I can't think of a reason why I would not support that ban.


You're absolutely right and I think most people would agree that if stopping the sale of violent games and movies really would stop violence then it should be done. You're right that no amount of fun and money for the publishers is worth bloodshed. But. Big But. I cannot equate someone watching a violent act on a television, or quasi-participating in an imaginary violent attack in a video game with an actual act of murderous violence. I dont know what it's like to kill someone with a claw hammer, but I imagine that the state of mind you'd have to be in to do such a thing would be... well probably like an advanced schizophrenic episode. What we're talking about is someone who says they killed someone - with a claw hammer - because they saw a DEPICTION of said act on a television. How can that be a legitimate excuse? How can there be ANY excuse for this? Notice that this kid is going to jail, not the programmers that made the game. Obvioulsy we know who's really at fault here. But the video game is expected to share the blame. If there were no visual depictions of violence - then violence would not exist. If this was true, I'm sure most people would agree that violent imagery is not worth having. Maybe it's not worth having anyway. It's a hard thing to defend, a game like Manhunter, which uses over-the-top violence as, at best, a gimmick. But I believe that violence does, and always has existed apart from dramaticized violence. And using a dramatic portrayal of violence as a way to excuse this kid's behavior sounds like the kind of thing a mother would say who doesnt want to believe her child is psychotic. So it's understandable, but I dont believe it's the truth. Of course I say this as someone who's been playing video games for 25 years who doesnt want to believe anyone would ever be negatively influenced by them.

[thegreatescape]

Does anyone remember Half Life Blue Shift being banned in Australia? because you could get a gun from a security guard, they said it encouraged people to kill security guards, and could happen in real life....


Uh. I remember that. Im not sure that it got "banned" as such, but from what i remember some crazy lady wrote an article in a newspaper (herald sun if i recall corectly) that said it was bad that you could kill security guards and steal their guns. I think what happened after that was the censorship board re-reviewed the game, but did nothing after that.

In fact the censorship board (OFLC) does a lot of re-reviewing, which is why games get 'banned" here, though its not really banned per se. Sometimes they wont give a game a rating, in which case games have to be edited to meet rating guidelines. GTA3 was released then pulled because they felt they should review the rating it had been given (MA15+). Im pretty sure rockstar had to take out the ability to have sex with prostitutes then run over them before being given the ok to re-release it.

Im not sure about manhunt, but im pretty sure it didnt get done over like gta3, or they did it (editing) before releasing it. NZ banned manhunt outright though, but IMO New zealand is a little more conservative than Australia. Ghost recon was also pulled, re-reviewed and rereleased (with no changes afaik). Its happened several times, and everytime it does it gets pinned as a ban

I dont think Night Trap got banned either, but it did take an extremely long time to be given a rating (no rating = no release), and by the time it was nobody cared about the game.

I cant think of any games that are banned to the effect that the selling/buying of them is illegal (Blue shift, MH, GTA3 and Carmageddon are all available at local EB), and if they are they're probably from america (e.g the game "ethnic clensing").

As for the game Manhunt itself.. I never did like it, and to be honest i dont really think the world ever needed a game where you play a serial killer. Heck i'd probably be glad if it got pulled from shelves because then the risk of me being suffocated with a plastic bag by mentally disturbed underage gamer decreases by 90%.

The problem is thus: Parent sees young child watching movie "kill bill", removes child from tv and scolds.

Parent sees child playing Grand Theft Auto 3, parent sees dog soiling rug. Parent disiplines dog for soiling on rug. Parent cleans soiled rug and leaves room.

[hezeuschrist]

It's definitely a touchy issue, but the way I see it is this.

You don't let your child watch Faces of Death and scat videos, why would you let them play Manhunt? It's not to say that the game didn't have any part in sending the kid over the edge, but there is certainly no way the kid was right in the head, played a violent game, then went out and beat someone with a hammer. Human beings do not work like that.

And besides, it's just the latest public issue to try and blame peoples real problems on. I remember when I was a kid it was a hellworthy tresspass to let your child watch a rated R movie, and there were cases of "Kid sees Terminator, goes on violent killing spree!" in the headlines. You don't see that kind of junk anymore because they've moved onto a new medium to blame their own poor parenting on. That, or the child was mentally unstable, and thus should DEFINITELY not have been playing Manhunt.

Either way, it really blows that the kid was beat and stabbed to death, but blaming the game is about as logical as blaming the company that made the hammer or the knife. The kid killed him, not the game. Lets blame the kid who was found covered in blood by two police officers, ok?

[RJ]

The article (from the link) states "...in which the players score points for violent killings."

Manhunt doesnt score points. I have the game & know how to play it.

Unless the UK version has incorporated some type of scoring system, the article is wrong.

Wish these reporters would get their facts straight before dissing the games.

[Jorpho]

Whenever this arises, there's one name that always comes up, sooner or later: Jack Thompson (http://www.stopkill.com).

He's mentioned explicitly in http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3936237.stm , but I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't consulted by someone before the other articles were written.

[Flack]

I know everyone keeps saying "kid", but at 17 years old in the UK you can join the army so that kind of separates the men from the boys in my mind. I was 17 when I graduated high school and moved out weeks before my 18th birthday. I know they stress the kid angle in stories like this, but 17 to me is pretty much an adult. 17 is also old enough to see any R rated movie, and there are plenty of them out there just as violent as Manhunter.

Is it possible he got the idea or the technique from the game? Sure.

What I would like to see a study done on is if videogames blur the line more strongly between reality and fantasy than other forms of entertainment. Honestly I don't think so, but you never know. I remember the kid who brought his rifle to school and shot classmates and said he got the idea from Stephen King's short story Rage. There were the kids that burned down their trailer home after watching Beavis and Butthead. Scores of kids have been injured from imitating Jackass. This isn't bad folks, it's just natural selection. It's just the other kids they take out kind of sucks.

[Jorpho]

Don't forget the kid who killed himself in the belief he would be reincarnated as Simba. Disney kept that one really quiet...

[chaoticjelly]

It is not the first time "shoot-em-up" video games have been blamed for triggering a violent response

Damn so many mistakes... lol now they are dissing SCHMUPS

I was reading the paper today... more about ManHunt

Saying people are flogging it for Xbox and PS2 for £50-£60 a copy brand new on ebay.. I look on ebay and what do you know... its correct!

Is it morally wrong to cash in on this? theres lots of people taking the opportunity I see...

[BTHOTU]

This game is REALLY GOOD, AND is no WAY for people of a younge age... I would say 16 and up....

It has Bad language and very grusome killings... but seriously after I play it I dont have any violent tendencies....

They dont just use bats in the game there are nail guns, wires to cut heads off and all kinds of crazy stuff...

This is Really a game older people should have only.... Just like BMX XXX hell they have Nude Strippers in that game, alond with the bad language.

Also we have to know this is in Europe... they are extremly anti violence /guns... I went to austria and they couldnt believe I owened 7 guns :)

They have a completely different life style. Nudity is no big thing there, but any type of violence or gun is.