The Trouble With AtariAge (drama alert)

[SoulBlazer]

I perfectly understand the need and desire of DP and AA to sell small ammounts of proto's and unrelased games on carts so that collectors can buy them.

The only thing I ask, if the people are kind enough, is to make the game available as a ROM for download at some point afterwards so that poor people like me can play them and see what the fuss is about. ;)

But many good posts here in the thread so far, so I won't waste text on what has been said.

[o2william]

Personally, if I bought one, I'd buy it to play it and I certainly wouldn't bother to dump it. Guess it's a good thing I don't have any interest in em or I'd be the most hated man in gaming.

Hey, if you're cool with being hated, then it IS your right to do whatever you want with your property -- including destroying the proto. One of my points was that, if you do so, you will earn animosity from the retrogaming community because you've destroyed something we value. However, it seems like you realize that and don't care, which is your right.

The "social obligations" I talked about have nothing to do with rights... it IS a free country and again, you can do whatever you want with your property. But you might be shunned by the community for doing it. You apparently don't care. I'm a little surprised at that, but again it's your right not to care.

Is it is a "social obligation" (within our little community) to release a proto ROM? I think it has become so in the minds of many members of the community. Whether it SHOULD be so is another matter. In my mind (and I think in yours too), it should not be. But I don't think everyone agrees, and that's why this has become such a divisive issue.

[Mr. Smashy]

First off, I'm curious about a few things.
What's the typical cost of running the CGE? What's the typical cost of purchasing the only known prototype of an unreleased game? How many of these reproductions in question are produced per title? How much does it cost to buy one of these reproductions at release?

From every thread I've read here, the following comes to mind:
The purchase of the initial prototype is an investment to help fund the CGE. Said prototype is then reproduced to be offered to the public at a much lower cost than the prototype itself in order to raise funds for the CGE. Only one production run is made. Given intellectual property laws, the distribution of the contents of the prototype can no longer be controlled or enforced by one man once the reproductions are distributed to the public therefore they're exclusively purchased by people that would like to play the prototype on the program's intended hardware and/or the reproductions are purchased by people that want to support the CGE. Once the reproductions are no longer available from the people (or person) raising funds for the CGE, the ROM dump is then released to the public for free (or released shortly after the CGE takes place). To me, this is completely understandable.

Are there really people calling other people "hoarders" and foaming at the mouth because they want to get something for free when everybody else has to pay? On what grounds do they believe they're entitled to have these ROMs? As for AtariAge, I might go there once in a while to check out information on some of my Atari carts and hardware but that's about it. They may have specialized in the products of and for Atari but as a result, they really limit their scope regarding the rest of the gaming world. That might work for some people but it doesn't appeal to me.

Prototype collecting seems very similar to art collecting (after all, games are art). A prototype would be like an original painting. Both can be reproduced. There are private collectors that like keeping the originals for themselves (or show it to friends) and there are museums that display the donated original for anybody that would like to see it (much like posting the ROM on the web). This Albert guy also seems completely hypocritical in that he'll gladly take it upon himself to release the ROMS to games released at the CGE yet mourn when somebody else releases the ROMs to some other prototype that were modified by people whom I can only assume are his friends as though making contributions to the hobby and improving an original prototype for profit is a great and noble act. Tell me I'm missing something here.


We would have gladly released the 2002 games before the 2003 show. Someone else decided to be sneaky and dump the games and post them on the AtariAge website instead. I asked that they be removed, and was ignored.

I'm not following on what the deal is here. If you were going to offer them for free anyway, what does it matter if somebody posted the games before you got around to it? Was it a timing issue or were you still making money off of them or does your group want to be the only ones presenting the ROMs?

[digitalpress]

First off, I'm curious about a few things.
What's the typical cost of running the CGE?

Last year we estimated the show cost at about $15,000. Remember, this includes many things: the space itself, insurance, security, show programs, a hosted dinner for 100+ "alumni", t-shirts (more than half of which are given to said alumni and family), advertising, shipping costs, and more.


What's the typical cost of purchasing the only known prototype of an unreleased game?

That varies widely! It could be as inexpensive as "free" (should a guest, for example, offer to partner with the release and take a share of each one sold) to very expensive indeed (recently heard of a prototype being sold for $1000).


How many of these reproductions in question are produced per title?

Again, varies widely. With CGE releases there are generally 150-250 made of each. A recent example: Bristles is being produced by Atari2600.com this year, 100 are being made.


How much does it cost to buy one of these reproductions at release?

Varies again, though not as much. Many of the recent releases over the past three years have been sold for $30-$40. Keep in mind that there are also expenses to producing these carts, from printing costs to circuit board assembly to packaging. You have to have a pretty strong commitment to sell these - and be pretty sure that you'll sell out - to make a decent profit on them.



We would have gladly released the 2002 games before the 2003 show. Someone else decided to be sneaky and dump the games and post them on the AtariAge website instead. I asked that they be removed, and was ignored.

I'm not following on what the deal is here. If you were going to offer them for free anyway, what does it matter if somebody posted the games before you got around to it? Was it a timing issue or were you still making money off of them or does your group want to be the only ones presenting the ROMs?

I meant it quite literally when I said "before the 2003 show". Remember, selling them ALL is pretty key to making any money. The game was released in a rather sneaky manner four months before we were prepared to do that. It wasn't really a big deal, but at the time I thought the admins at AtariAge would at least respond to my request. Apparently it was a much bigger deal to them.

By the way, you may have noticed that the 2003 CGE releases are now available, courtesy of AtariAge. How ironic that this upstanding business takes it upon themselves to release CGE's games to the public, yet they do not even acknowledge to their public that the Expo itself exists!

[TheRedEye]

That varies widely! It could be as inexpensive as "free" (should a guest, for example, offer to partner with the release and take a share of each one sold) to very expensive indeed (recently heard of a prototype being sold for $1000).

Depends on which system, too. An unreleased NES game is easily $1,000. In fact, that's what Lost Levels paid for Final Fantasy II.

Still waiting for Hardie's stories, I'm genuinely interested.

[maxlords]

Well, I thought it would be apparent but I was trying to overstate a point, namely that it's within anyone's rights to do with their own belongings as they please. The sense of "entitlement" that Captain Wrong mentioned is purely what I'm against here. My point is that anyone who owns this stuff doesn't OWE anyone anything. Whether you think it's right or wrong, ultimately it's not anyone's business what is done with the stuff. I wouldn't PERSONALLY destroy a proto but I'm saying it wouldn't bother me. It's not my business, and if I have one, it's not anyone else's business. Everyone seems to think that being a fan means that they have some sort of RIGHT to play this stuff. They don't.

Now personally, I think that if things are handled politely, this isn't a problem. If, for example, I had a proto of an Atari game and someone asked me nicely to allow them to dump the ROMs, or more likely, was willing to purchase the rights to dump the ROMs (a questionable legal matter in and of itself), well, I'd probably be willing to.

However the case here is that people aren't being civil in any way to each other. It's not right, nice or fair, and plenty of badness has come about with all this hatred. There's no need for it. No one is kissing Joe's ass. I'm not, that's for damned sure. If he has the rights to this stuff, what is done with it is his decision and no one else's. If he doesn't have the rights, well, then tough luck anyway. Same goes for AA. I don't know many people there really, but I've read a couple of the recent threads about this and they're silly. People are acting like they're OWED these ROMs. I say tough luck. No one owes you anything. The destruction of protos, while abhorrent to some, is irrelevant to me. I use it to make a point that this IS irrelevant. It was just kind of a subtle point. Some people hoard em, some share em. Just accept what's offered and move on.

A community is made up of people with differing opinions, and that's what DP is. Some people are now trying to make it seem like there's only one way, when quite frankly, that's a lie. If people don't like what you're doing they'll say so. But they should say so CIVILY. And they have not been. There's a lot of subtle backstabbing going on, and a lot of one-sided antagonism, and it's just not civil. No one responds to that.

I saw that Joe even made the offer of people asking nicely to be able to get some of these ROMs at AA and his post was roundly discarded and twisted from what I saw. With that sort of response, no one is owed anything. This silliness simply has to stop. I don't think anyone here (that I know of at least) has anything against AA, but there seem to be people who want to pick fights. I don't want to get involved. As I said I'm neutral.

I haven't seen much fight picking on DP here though. In fact almost none and I'm thankful for that. And I've heard a few facts 2ndhand that I'm NOT going to bring up....neutrality as stated. BUT...this crap has to stop. Make up or don't, but there's no need for bitter rivalries in a hobby where the whole point is entertainment. If you want that, there are other forums. Me...I'm here to talk games. All this political crap is a waste of everyone's time and energy. You don't like something...talk it out behind the scenes and get on with your lives. Sheesh.



Personally, if I bought one, I'd buy it to play it and I certainly wouldn't bother to dump it. Guess it's a good thing I don't have any interest in em or I'd be the most hated man in gaming.

Hey, if you're cool with being hated, then it IS your right to do whatever you want with your property -- including destroying the proto. One of my points was that, if you do so, you will earn animosity from the retrogaming community because you've destroyed something we value. However, it seems like you realize that and don't care, which is your right.

The "social obligations" I talked about have nothing to do with rights... it IS a free country and again, you can do whatever you want with your property. But you might be shunned by the community for doing it. You apparently don't care. I'm a little surprised at that, but again it's your right not to care.

Is it is a "social obligation" (within our little community) to release a proto ROM? I think it has become so in the minds of many members of the community. Whether it SHOULD be so is another matter. In my mind (and I think in yours too), it should not be. But I don't think everyone agrees, and that's why this has become such a divisive issue.

[o2william]

Maxlords makes some great points in his last post. I don't think any harm is done by a civil argument (look at some of the interesting discussion that has popped up in this thread), but when you resort to bickering and backstabbing, everybody loses. It's a shame this has happened within our community since ultimately, we all share a common interest in gaming.

[digitalpress]

Make up or don't, but there's no need for bitter rivalries in a hobby where the whole point is entertainment. If you want that, there are other forums. Me...I'm here to talk games. All this political crap is a waste of everyone's time and energy. You don't like something...talk it out behind the scenes and get on with your lives. Sheesh.

You're absolutely right, Nate but it takes open communication from both sides. Talking it out behind the scenes has become very difficult if not impossible when you're blocked from AIM lists, e-mails returned marked "returned to sender", and forum posts locked, edited, or deleted. It's not like I haven't tried. It is for this very reason that I've made this post publically. Most of you have known me for many years and have visited these forums nearly as long and you know that I've downplayed conversations like this one in the past and have frustrated people who know what's going on with my silence.

Being silent is entirely different than being silenced.

That is where the line was drawn.

[Captain Wrong]

Unless they purchased the rights to the game itself from the publisher neither DP or AA have any more rights to sell protos and proto roms than Joe Shmo has the right to sell rom CDs on ebay.

As the man says "now this is a horse of an entirely different color"...

I was informed the other night that with some of the games in question the rights have been purchased. In that case they do have the legal rights to determine what happens to the games. Maybe this is something that the people behind these releases should make a bigger issue out of, that releasing the ROMS that they legally have the rights to is the same damn thing as relasing a GBA ROM.

[le geek]

This a bummer, but not really surprising. Our hobby is full of passion, and as such things can be taken way too seriously.

While we have a lot of "characters" in the hobby that can be childish and petty at times, many of them do contribute valuable info, services, etc...

I will say that Joe does more for the COMMUNITY in Videogame Community than anyone I can think of, as far as making things social and fun (we are trying to have FUN right?) and so my hat is off to you...
:cheers:

That being said, I'll be over at N-G.com to cool off from teh dr4m4! :evil:

Cheers,
Ben

[-hellvin-]

This was a lot of drama to take in at once.

*Deep Breath*

I feel better now.

[NvrMore]

Ok, so with regard to unreleased games.

These were games that were never released (I know, "duh") and as such people were never going to get to play. For all intensive purposes they were never on the cards for the gaming consumer or even enthusiast.. it wasn't something anyone was going to have.
So while this game is thought to be dead and buried, it's basically considered a want that never was and never will be, that's all it can be. You were never going to have it, it got canned, bugger shit damn, oh well (etc.).

It then becomes the case that someone is known to have been able to accquire a copy of this game, probably at their own expense. Now it all changes and somehow it's a case that everyone is entitled to that game because someone has it?

It's unfair that people can't have this game, that they were never going to have, because they now know that someone has it?

..and because they want it and like playing games, they are entitled to it?

S/He has it, therefore I am entitled to it because I like and/or want it? (for free even and despite any expense initially incurred to that person?).

You were never going to have it, you were never meant to have it, you never had any right to it (interest or not), yet if someone else has it, this all changes? :o

?

And now onto the even greater logic void..

Ok, so then we create segregation within the "community" because of the aforementioned entitlement issues, which in turn erodes the goodwill upon which any "sharing" is usually based. Essentially making it even less likely that any of these unreleased games might become public...

"Ha!, take that nose, how'd you like them apples, Face.. ughn, damn *thud*"

Let me just reiterate..

?

[elvis63]

[quote="digitalpress"][quote="sku_u"]I don't know why you perceive it that way. When I posted the three CGE games on the site last year, I was specific about them being DEBUTS, not EXCLUSIVES. Six days after the show the front page had a link to the games for sale. The year before was not much different.[quote]

Well, speaking as another outsider who has made it a point to attend almost every CGE event specifically to get exclusive games, I must say that aside from 2002 and 2003, it certainly seemed to be presented as CGE games were exclusive to the Expo only. In fact, I made a point of cancelling my other 2001 vacation and switching to going to CGE specifically so I wouldn't miss out on getting the "exclusive" CGE games, and have followed up doing that in subsequent years. I certainly didn't get the impression that the 2001 releases would be available at any other time, and I think others thought the same way based on the ridiculously high prices those games were getting on Ebay following the show. I spent almost all of my time in line waiting to get the new games and making sure I didn't miss out on them.

Of course, this did change after the 2002 show, and it was nice of the CGE guys to change the system to avoid the waiting in line - that was great, and it made for a nicer experience. However, I was still under the impression that the 2002 releases were exclusive to the CG Expo only. In fact, I was surprised to see leftover copies of the 2001 releases for sale at the 2002 show as I seriously thought it was a case of a one time thing, and I was also surprised when I saw the 2002 releases for sale on the CGE website, as I was certainly thinking they would not be.

Now, let me just say that I don't care if anyone hordes ROMs at all - I don't expect, nor would I want anyone who has invested money in ROMs to release them for nothing. I'm perfectly happy with buying copies of games, whatever the price, so Joe and the other DP/CGE guys please don't take this as any criticism of you at all. I love CGE and I try to never miss it. In fact, I altered the dates of my honeymoon this year (and the location) just to make it out to San Jose (yes, the wife loves classic games - aren't I lucky).

Personally, I think it's great that CGE offers their games for sale after the show - that's all, I, as a long time gamer, would ask. I don't care about free roms, but I do want to buy the games that are offered. I don't think it's about getting anything free (at least not for me).

Somehow, though, somewhere along the line I (and I think some others) got the impression that the CGE/DP guys were slightly elitist in their thinking, and that it was quite the closed, exclusive community. Now, I do want to stress that no one has told me this. I'm not friends with Alex or Albert or Matt Reichert or anyone at AA. I'm pretty anonymous, even though I know a lot of the guys on both sides by name and/or face. I think that anyone in the classic gaming community who is in a position of power (for lack of a better word) will, by default, be viewed by some as being elitist. From my personal interactions with people on both sides, I do find the AA people to be friendlier and perhaps more open in their willingness to share with the community (and again, by "share" I do NOT mean posting ROMs for free for people to download. I am referring to the notion of things being the exclusive province of a select few). I got that impression about the DP/CGE guys (and NOT from reading the AA boards as I haven't seen anything except the most recent discussioon). I can't say where I got it, but I guess it would be at least partly based on my experiences with the 2001 CGE exclusive games and how they were presented. Another part of it probably comes from the whole Sunmark Commavid repro debacle, but that's another story.

Also, I seem to recall that Sean Kelly (and no, I don't have proof of this, and my memory may be faulty) commented a number of times back in 2001 that if you couldn't get the games at CGE you were pretty much out of luck. I remember him writing an article or something of the sort about people who were whining that they couldn't afford to come out to CGE, etc. and I think that, while I'd agree with Sean (or Joe or anyone else) that if you really wanted to go to CGE you have plenty of time to save up for it, I do think that somewhere in the past it was presented to the general public that CGE was the only place to get the exclusive games, and Sean's reply seemed a bit snotty to me.

Again, that has changed, and I thank you all for that - as you said, Joe, the games are now only a click away and that is excellent. As for AA, I guess they've always been that way since they started selling games- no need to worry about making it to a certain show as you know the games will be avaialble. That's what it's all about for me - I'm not a proto collector, I'm a game player, and if I have to pay $$ to get a nice box, label and manual that's totally fine with me - after all, this is also about business and I'm here to support any classic gaming business that puts new games in my hands.

Sorry for the long post, but I thought I'd try to make a reasoned and explanatory one rather than just some apparent rant. The bottom line is that I'm not one of those "I can't make it to the con so give me the rom for free" kind of guys - I make a point to get the games I want, no matter what I have to do to get them. It just seemed to me in the past that the window of opportunity for getting CGE games was quite small and that gamers like myself were being left out in certain ways.

That's my two cents - hope it made sense!

[digitalpress]

Don't leave the building, Elvis63! :)

Seriously, your opinions are very much appreciated. It sucks that we're perceived as elitist in any way - to me, "elitists" would never think about holding public Expositions, running a community website, or being sponsors to any gaming events that their sponsorship is welcome, but maybe that's just me.

If you stick around awhile, I think you'll see things differently. Really!

[elvis63]

Don't leave the building, Elvis63! :)

Seriously, your opinions are very much appreciated. It sucks that we're perceived as elitist in any way - to me, "elitists" would never think about holding public Expositions, running a community website, or being sponsors to any gaming events that their sponsorship is welcome, but maybe that's just me.

If you stick around awhile, I think you'll see things differently. Really!

Joe,

No, please don't think that I think the DP guys are elitists. I just meant that, to some, they could be seen that way. In other words, the "exclusives" thing at earlier CG Expos seemed a bit elitist to me, but as I mentioned, that has changed. I think it's great that you put together CGE and I always make the effort to go. I guess Iwas just trying to exress the possible viewpoints of people who are not in the "in" crowd of the classic gaming community but who are active and longtime gamers. Heck, I remember Sean Kelly from years ago when auctions were still held on newsgroups and Ebay wasn't even invented. Also, for the record, I thought Matt Reichert was also a bit of an elitist too, with all of his posts on AA every time a prototype was mentioned commenting on how he had "X" or "Y" prototype, even if the post was not specifically related to protoypes. It's all in how people come across.

Overall, though, I have no complaints. In fact, I might be in the minority here, but I *prefer* to pay for exclusive releases and have an actual cart, box and manual in my hands than to play some game on an emulator or even on a Cuttle Cart. Thus, I was actually disappointed when I saw your announcement that the CGE games this year would not be for sale, but would be posted for free later on...call me crazy!

[dsullo]

Can someone post a list of the Exclusive titles that were available at the CGE since 2001? I know its not relevent to the topic at hand, but I was curious.

[portnoyd]

That varies widely! It could be as inexpensive as "free" (should a guest, for example, offer to partner with the release and take a share of each one sold) to very expensive indeed (recently heard of a prototype being sold for $1000).

Depends on which system, too. An unreleased NES game is easily $1,000. In fact, that's what Lost Levels paid for Final Fantasy II.

Still waiting for Hardie's stories, I'm genuinely interested.

Since I too am waiting for some Hardie storytelling, and can add nothing to the conversation, I will point out $5000 was offered for California Raisins for the NES. Also keep in mind this was one of the most prolific and notable unreleased NES games that was undumped.

dave

[Dreamscape]

Don't leave the building, Elvis63! :)

Seriously, your opinions are very much appreciated. It sucks that we're perceived as elitist in any way - to me, "elitists" would never think about holding public Expositions, running a community website, or being sponsors to any gaming events that their sponsorship is welcome, but maybe that's just me.

If you stick around awhile, I think you'll see things differently. Really!

Joe,

No, please don't think that I think the DP guys are elitists. I just meant that, to some, they could be seen that way. In other words, the "exclusives" thing at earlier CG Expos seemed a bit elitist to me, but as I mentioned, that has changed. I think it's great that you put together CGE and I always make the effort to go. I guess Iwas just trying to exress the possible viewpoints of people who are not in the "in" crowd of the classic gaming community but who are active and longtime gamers. Heck, I remember Sean Kelly from years ago when auctions were still held on newsgroups and Ebay wasn't even invented. Also, for the record, I thought Matt Reichert was also a bit of an elitist too, with all of his posts on AA every time a prototype was mentioned commenting on how he had "X" or "Y" prototype, even if the post was not specifically related to protoypes. It's all in how people come across.

Overall, though, I have no complaints. In fact, I might be in the minority here, but I *prefer* to pay for exclusive releases and have an actual cart, box and manual in my hands than to play some game on an emulator or even on a Cuttle Cart. Thus, I was actually disappointed when I saw your announcement that the CGE games this year would not be for sale, but would be posted for free later on...call me crazy!

I guess I am in the minority as well. I have tried to get into emulation, but I just can't. Like you, I would rather have a cart with a nice box and manual. Something I can play on the actual system and not on a computer, and something I can display in my collection.

[Kepone]

Wasn't the Commavid Rush Hour reproduction a CGE 2002 exclusive? I have a boxed copy of it in my collection.

[SegaTecToy]

Regarding the Protos/Roms discussion: It would be the moral/right/nice thing to release this to the people who would like to play these games. But some (most?) people like to be immoral/wrong/rude. So maybe one prototype you would like to play will never be released. Tough luck, unfortunately there isn't a thing you can do. But you can live with that. Most of them are crappy or doesn't work anyway. (I'm not talking about the DP guys. I know they love this hobby and are nice people. But this hobby, as any, is full of jerks)

The bad thing about AA forums is that you really can't discuss some things there without being dissed/locked/banned. Specially if you speak against the 'Monarchy' as someone (rightly ) described them. But most people there are good people, so I simply have to ignore the bad apples.
(But I know it's hard to do it when they have a personal jihad against you :roll: )

[orrimarrko]

I still find some of this funny.

When you think about it (really think about it), the ROM issue is basically a Collector vs. Gamer issue, at least in my opinion.

Allow me to elaborate (I'm going to anyway):

(An example:) You want the Atari 2600 proto "A Team". WHY?

Is it because you have love playing Atari 2600 games, and have played EVERY Atari 2600 game available at retail? Is it because you were DYING to play "A TEAM" for the VCS? I highly doubt it.

So why would you care at all if you had an unreleased game (ROM or proto)?

Is it because you simply MUST have every game you can get your mitts on? I doubt that also. If that was the case, you would see a LOT more people offering big bucks for the holy grails of the system (Air Raid, etc.), because the cost of some protos is creeping up there...

Fact is, owning a proto or an unreleased game is a BRAGGING RIGHT - especially in our little hobby. Christ - we ALL brag in one way or another about things in our collection.

"I have something that you don't, and quite frankly, can't get", the proto owner says.

That's why people get pissed when their ROM or proto gets dumped to the public. They no longer have something exclusive.

Simultaneously, those who don't have the ROM or the proto, but want it, get jealous of the person(s) that do.

So, if that owner doesn't share or make it otherwise available, then they get pissed off. "That asshole won't play fair. He's a hoarder of ROMS. Blah, blah, blah..."

It's basically a no-win situation. Those that don't have it want it, and those that have it want to be the only ones that do.

On the ocassion that the owner doesn't care if anyone else has it, s/he will share. HOORAY FOR EVERYONE! Otherwise, we're back to the cat fight.

If you are a collector, then you will probably lean towards owning the game/proto/ROM. Sharing it doesn't make any sense. By doing so, devalues your collection, in more ways than one.

If you are a gamer, then you could care less who has it. "Game On", s/he says. The more the merrier - then you can talk about it, compare scores, strategies, etc.

I hope I've made my point, but it honestly doesn't matter.

I just wanted to illustrate that it's an arguement without resolution - you are dealing with two different types of people, with two different goals.

Since that's the case, ramble on...

[SoulBlazer]

Good post, that last one before mine.

It's the same concept I said in mine -- I'm a gamer, not a collector, and I care more about trying out games then actually owning it. I respect and understand that collectors will want copies and what not, but I'm too poor to even start that, much less be interested.

But I'd STILL like to try out many of these lost, unknown, half finished games to see how they are, if the hype was worth it, etc.

I would'nt even mind paying a fee to download the ROM.

But I think it's great that Joe is offering them to the public after the CGE, and although I'm a outsider on this it seems to boil down to some people who feel strongly one way or another, a matter of opion, and previous bad blood.

A olive branch would be good here, but Joe is in the right by refusing to offer one -- heck, he allready TRIED, and look how well THAT went! :roll:

[punkoffgirl]

Unless they purchased the rights to the game itself from the publisher neither DP or AA have any more rights to sell protos and proto roms than Joe Shmo has the right to sell rom CDs on ebay.

As the man says "now this is a horse of an entirely different color"...

I was informed the other night that with some of the games in question the rights have been purchased. In that case they do have the legal rights to determine what happens to the games. Maybe this is something that the people behind these releases should make a bigger issue out of, that releasing the ROMS that they legally have the rights to is the same damn thing as relasing a GBA ROM.

Oh, yes, Rob, but I think you missed the part where certain people involved don't believe or care that the rights were purchased, and pretty much thumbed their noses when they were told so.


Regarding the Protos/Roms discussion: It would be the moral/right/nice thing to release this to the people who would like to play these games. But some (most?) people like to be immoral/wrong/rude.

Exactly why is this immoral (what sin is being committed?) or wrong, or rude? Just because I buy a car for myself to drive, does not mean I have to let anyone else that has been DYING to drive that kind of car have a spin at the wheel.

[kainemaxwell]

Nice to know this at times with AA..that and seemed like when I was trying to get a payment from someone about a purchace from me when he was making excuses everyone was jumping on me instead of him.

[Kepone]

The bad thing about AA forums is that you really can't discuss some things there without being dissed/locked/banned. Specially if you speak against the 'Monarchy' as someone (rightly ) described them. But most people there are good people, so I simply have to ignore the bad apples.
(But I know it's hard to do it when they have a personal jihad against you :roll: )

Some people at AA feel that DP feels that way about AA.

I guess that we all have to accept that there will be issues like this coming up in the future.

But we can work it out. Let's all hold our hands and sing "Kumbaya, My Lord". Or not.

[Kepone]

Nice to know this at times with AA..that and seemed like when I was trying to get a payment from someone about a purchace from me when he was making excuses everyone was jumping on me instead of him.

You were constantly starting threads calling him out instead of working it out in PMs. I'm not surprised that he chose to ignore you.

Most things can be worked out through PM. If not, you can always file a fraud report against the person, being that you can prove that the transaction was fraudulent.

[digitalpress]

But we can work it out. Let's all hold our hands and sing "Kumbaya, My Lord". Or not.

:)

See, the DP crowd is more a "I'd like to buy the world a Coke" kind of crowd ;)

Seriously, I'm glad you're hanging in there for this, Kepone... the last thing I want to do is alienate AA visitors. It's the administration I have a problem with.

Game ON.

[TheRedEye]

Since I too am waiting for some Hardie storytelling, and can add nothing to the conversation, I will point out $5000 was offered for California Raisins for the NES. Also keep in mind this was one of the most prolific and notable unreleased NES games that was undumped.

dave

what. I don't remember $5k, just $2k.

[kainemaxwell]

Nice to know this at times with AA..that and seemed like when I was trying to get a payment from someone about a purchace from me when he was making excuses everyone was jumping on me instead of him.

You were constantly starting threads calling him out instead of working it out in PMs. I'm not surprised that he chose to ignore you.

Most things can be worked out through PM. If not, you can always file a fraud report against the person, being that you can prove that the transaction was fraudulent.

I DID PM him numerous times as well as email him. He claimed "oh, I never check my PMs or emails". Wow, grea tperson to make a trade with HUH??? :angry:

[Kepone]

Nice to know this at times with AA..that and seemed like when I was trying to get a payment from someone about a purchace from me when he was making excuses everyone was jumping on me instead of him.

You were constantly starting threads calling him out instead of working it out in PMs. I'm not surprised that he chose to ignore you.

Most things can be worked out through PM. If not, you can always file a fraud report against the person, being that you can prove that the transaction was fraudulent.

I DID PM him numerous times as well as email him. He claimed "oh, I never check my PMs or emails". Wow, grea tperson to make a trade with HUH??? :angry:

We all get ripped off at least once in life. Learn to live with it. I had an EBay deal that went bad..didn't get the game I had won. No refund. Nothing. Complaining won't get that trader to send your game.

[portnoyd]

Since I too am waiting for some Hardie storytelling, and can add nothing to the conversation, I will point out $5000 was offered for California Raisins for the NES. Also keep in mind this was one of the most prolific and notable unreleased NES games that was undumped.

dave

what. I don't remember $5k, just $2k.

Take a guess who. He's a Jason, but not a Wilson.

[ApolloBoy]

God, I swear, this AA/DP rivalry is as stupid as hell. This is about VIDEO GAMES for crying out loud, and we're making a big fuss over THAT?!

And for the record, despite me being from AA, I do like this site alot, I like AA for it's coverage of Atari systems, and DP for it's coverage of classic games in general.

[Li Wang]

I was informed the other night that with some of the games in question the rights have been purchased. In that case they do have the legal rights to determine what happens to the games. Maybe this is something that the people behind these releases should make a bigger issue out of, that releasing the ROMS that they legally have the rights to is the same damn thing as relasing a GBA ROM.

I'd really like to hear more on this issue, and I think other people with a similar view on the situation would as well. Although I don't agree that it would impact sales at all, I would understand feeling a bit betrayed if games were leaked that CGE actually did get the full rights to. For stuff nobody "owns" but the original company, I have to agree with Blackjax's sentiment that once it's out in some form it's out and playing pretend intellectual property holder is ridiculous.

[scooterb23]

I've got to agree Apollo Boy...fighting over video games is stupid. I wish the handful of people who are actually involved with any bad blood, and I believe it honestly is just a handful of people... could just talk it out, and leave it behind the scenes. But that requires both sides willing to talk as adults...it really seems like there're not there yet.

Just because video games are for kids doesn't mean as adults we have to continue acting like it...

I seriously hope that the people who need to talk this out are still reading with open eyes and an open mind.

[kainemaxwell]

Nice to know this at times with AA..that and seemed like when I was trying to get a payment from someone about a purchace from me when he was making excuses everyone was jumping on me instead of him.

You were constantly starting threads calling him out instead of working it out in PMs. I'm not surprised that he chose to ignore you.

Most things can be worked out through PM. If not, you can always file a fraud report against the person, being that you can prove that the transaction was fraudulent.

I DID PM him numerous times as well as email him. He claimed "oh, I never check my PMs or emails". Wow, grea tperson to make a trade with HUH??? :angry:

We all get ripped off at least once in life. Learn to live with it. I had an EBay deal that went bad..didn't get the game I had won. No refund. Nothing. Complaining won't get that trader to send your game.

I want my payment. Don't reply here again. :angry:

[Captain Wrong]

I want my payment. Don't reply here again. :angry:

Umm...considering you're the one who went completely off topic (as you so often do), where do you get off telling people not to reply in this thread? Sorry you had a bad transaction, but this isn't the complain about your bad transactions thread.

Anyway...Apollo Boy, love the avitar and agree with the sentiment. As someone wiser than me once said "all this over toys and games?!?"

[Kepone]

Nice to know this at times with AA..that and seemed like when I was trying to get a payment from someone about a purchace from me when he was making excuses everyone was jumping on me instead of him.

You were constantly starting threads calling him out instead of working it out in PMs. I'm not surprised that he chose to ignore you.

Most things can be worked out through PM. If not, you can always file a fraud report against the person, being that you can prove that the transaction was fraudulent.

I DID PM him numerous times as well as email him. He claimed "oh, I never check my PMs or emails". Wow, grea tperson to make a trade with HUH??? :angry:

We all get ripped off at least once in life. Learn to live with it. I had an EBay deal that went bad..didn't get the game I had won. No refund. Nothing. Complaining won't get that trader to send your game.

I want my payment. Don't reply here again. :angry:

You're also complaining about the same thing over at AA. I've never seen someone get so mad over $5.

I've lost more money than that on EBay and walked away.

[Ed Oscuro]

No kidding...I lost like, oh, say 1-200 times $5 on eBay and walked away (through a number of transactions; mostly my fault in providing the wrong address; I will note that very few of the sellers ever tried to contact me in order to sort things out) and I just mention it in passing. Yeah, but people are entitled to hold grudges...all the same I think Kaine's letting this color his opinion of other issues.

I mean hell, take the CGE ticket drawings - oh, what happened to all the money we sent in that went over the minimum (No answer is necessary; humor me a second and I'll explain what I'm after)? Why is it that we contribute to the page so that folks like Joe can make money off it (nevermind that we get these forums for free and more drawings than you can shake a stick at)...I think what's going on here is that folks look at some of these issues and they think it's all supposed to be zero sum, where every dollar put in shows up in a concrete fashion. Yeah, I'd agree that a lot of the time money issues aren't explained like they should be, but I know the Digital Press folks aren't scamming us, and I hold the AA folks in similar good faith.

Where did the good faith get broken? I think the "when will DP release t3h ROMz" complaints have their relative merits if you look at everything as if it is supposed to be simple. Joe doesn't make all the decisions concerning ROM releases, which makes a lot of the directed hating invalid from the get go, and I like how folks bring up issues of copyright infringement with Disney-licensed items. When was the last time any of us holy gamers ran afoul of the laws (I'm warranting it was sometime between the age of swords and sworcery, and when I booted up my GYM player in Winamp...)?

If any of the parties who believe the other side has bad faith would take a moment to think, I warrant they might remember that there was a single event which created suspicion of skullduggery and evildoing in the other camp - and to build up a case out of "evidence" used to support a case built out of a single observation is, in my judgement, a bit superstitious.

Think about it, folks - I haven't seen any of the angry people here doing much more than simply reacting to challenges thrown at the judgements they've handed down; if it was really concrete, better arguments would be given.

Now excuse me while I go kick myself a little for having wasted my time and made myself look even more like an asshole bent on aggrandizing myself at every chance, because none of this concerns me. That said, it's not good karma (or something) for this nonsense to find its way onto the Forums.

Joe, I sympathize, and I'll leave it at that...I don't think appealing to the masses (we're all asses, remember? Especially myself) could possibly have done anything than inflame opinion and cause further bad will - this is all nonsense, and instead of exonerating Digital Press this just makes us look like a bunch of clueless flamers.

[sku_u]

Nice to know this at times with AA..that and seemed like when I was trying to get a payment from someone about a purchace from me when he was making excuses everyone was jumping on me instead of him.

You were constantly starting threads calling him out instead of working it out in PMs. I'm not surprised that he chose to ignore you.

Most things can be worked out through PM. If not, you can always file a fraud report against the person, being that you can prove that the transaction was fraudulent.

I DID PM him numerous times as well as email him. He claimed "oh, I never check my PMs or emails". Wow, grea tperson to make a trade with HUH??? :angry:

From what I remember, both me and VGA went to bat for you and did not try to defend the guy at all. :)

[Dreamscape]

Nice to know this at times with AA..that and seemed like when I was trying to get a payment from someone about a purchace from me when he was making excuses everyone was jumping on me instead of him.

You were constantly starting threads calling him out instead of working it out in PMs. I'm not surprised that he chose to ignore you.

Most things can be worked out through PM. If not, you can always file a fraud report against the person, being that you can prove that the transaction was fraudulent.

I DID PM him numerous times as well as email him. He claimed "oh, I never check my PMs or emails". Wow, grea tperson to make a trade with HUH??? :angry:

We all get ripped off at least once in life. Learn to live with it. I had an EBay deal that went bad..didn't get the game I had won. No refund. Nothing. Complaining won't get that trader to send your game.

I want my payment. Don't reply here again. :angry:

You got that mad over $5 O_O Wow....

[TheRedEye]

Man, there are like five different conversations going on in this thread.

[Kaine24]

Where the hell is my $5? :angry:

[sniperCCJVQ]

http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=55324&highlight=

"It's really unfortunate that Joe, John, and his friends have chosen to attack us (and in particular, me) over on DP, but I am not going to get involved with that feeding frenzy. Please remember that there are two sides to every story and that what you are reading is highly subjective, is calculated to paint us in as bad a light as possible, much of it is untrue, and they know we will not come over there to defend ourselves against their allegations.

If anyone has specific questions about anything that is being said in that thread, please send me a PM or email and I would be happy to answer them."


and the topic is locked has well.

:argue:

[digitalpress]

http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=55324&highlight=

"It's really unfortunate that Joe, John, and his friends have chosen to attack us (and in particular, me) over on DP, but I am not going to get involved with that feeding frenzy. Please remember that there are two sides to every story and that what you are reading is highly subjective, is calculated to paint us in as bad a light as possible, much of it is untrue, and they know we will not come over there to defend ourselves against their allegations.

If anyone has specific questions about anything that is being said in that thread, please send me a PM or email and I would be happy to answer them."


and the topic is locked has well.

:argue:

It's exactly my point. The issues are never discussed but rather buried in a series of behind the scenes private messages. Albert knows full well that he could come right over here, speak his mind and not get locked, edited, or deleted for it. Instead, he shuts down any discussion and lets this "feud", which starts and ends with him, continue.

Let's get it out in the open, Albert. I've got nothing to hide.

[digitalpress]

I mean hell, take the CGE ticket drawings - oh, what happened to all the money we sent in that went over the minimum (No answer is necessary; humor me a second and I'll explain what I'm after)? Why is it that we contribute to the page so that folks like Joe can make money off it (nevermind that we get these forums for free and more drawings than you can shake a stick at)...I think what's going on here is that folks look at some of these issues and they think it's all supposed to be zero sum, where every dollar put in shows up in a concrete fashion. Yeah, I'd agree that a lot of the time money issues aren't explained like they should be, but I know the Digital Press folks aren't scamming us, and I hold the AA folks in similar good faith.

What's this? Are you talking about the "send a member to CGE" drawing? Dude, go back and read how that works. We added to the pot, we didn't take a dime from it. The winners got all of the proceeds plus the extra stuff we threw in. Please check your facts before making an accusation like THIS - turning a charitable contest into some kind of money-skimming scheme.


Joe, I sympathize, and I'll leave it at that...I don't think appealing to the masses (we're all asses, remember? Especially myself) could possibly have done anything than inflame opinion and cause further bad will - this is all nonsense, and instead of exonerating Digital Press this just makes us look like a bunch of clueless flamers.

Ed, you yourself have made public things that have happened to you personally on these very forums. As I've explained above, I have tried working these things out but the situation is getting worse. I could sit on my backside and just let it continue but it's been two years now. How long would YOU just sit back and take it?

[digitalpress]

God, I swear, this AA/DP rivalry is as stupid as hell. This is about VIDEO GAMES for crying out loud, and we're making a big fuss over THAT?!.

On the surface, that's what it appears to be.

I'm not fighting over video games. I'm fighting FOR the gaming community. Don't look at it as a rivalry because I never saw it that way. At one time Albert and I were friends, and to this day I'm willing to work things out. But I have been silenced.

It may appear that I'm "against" the AtariAge community but it's quite the opposite. The fact that that community and ours overlap and are all interested in the same things is why this is happening right now. The AA community is given a very subjective view of what happens at DP and CGE, which serves to divide the community. That's what I'm fighting against.

If it bothers you, all you really need to do is ignore this ONE topic. Anything of this nature is locked immediately there, and our focus IS gaming - so you won't see rampant wildfire anti-ANYTHING posts here either.

[LAGO]

After all that reading I have to admit the thread is rightly named.

And that's as close as i'm getting to this topic.

[kainemaxwell]

Sorry for my previous comments.

[captain nintendo]

Its really stupid that people think its a "war" between DP and AA :roll:
So a few people have been burned ( I know it sucks )

But I think 99% of DPers and 99% of the AA nation are probably cool with
each other. I was reading the link over at AA and wasnt suprised at all to see it locked :roll: Hmmm , so how come things cant be discussed ina civalized way out in the open ? Oh wait ! They can be right here :P


On a side note : WTF is up with all the other drama in this thread :o

* Offers cake up to everybody with the bad mojo

[brykasch]

Well not a big person on the forums there, I am a member, but usually only browse the buy/sell stuff nothing more. Everything game related I am over here. I look at things this way on a couple of subjects-

1. If CGE wants to make their games exclusive to the CGE then its their business. If I design my own 2600 (colecovision, etc) game, then its up to me how I dispose of it, now if its a prototype then we are getting in murky waters, as it can still be their right to only sell it at CGE, but risk getting in trouble for copyright violations. Remember folks most of us are gamers first, collectors second. Granted some fall into the later category only, which saddens me as it makes no sense to buy something you really have no enjoyment in except for the monetary gain you recieve from it. Noone has a right to any rom whether it be 2600 or Neo Geo, its up to the makers of the game to decide, and people who waste so much of their lives bickering about it need to find something better to do with their free time as they obviously have nothing better to do. I appreciate the fact that some extras are sold at the web site after the fact, and once the run is sold out the roms should be released (with permission of course).

2. I don't know all the details about this one but if there is extra money left over after the "send a member to cge expo contest", then it should be put in a reserve for said contest next year imho. There is no way to do refunds on a raffle, but unless you said leftover funds would go towards the running of CGE then thats how it should be handled imho. I don't know joe personally, but I don't think he is trying to pocket any difference.

And remember man these are internet forums for christ sake, its only when it gets personal that I think it goes to far.

[Griking]

I was informed the other night that with some of the games in question the rights have been purchased. In that case they do have the legal rights to determine what happens to the games. Maybe this is something that the people behind these releases should make a bigger issue out of, that releasing the ROMS that they legally have the rights to is the same damn thing as relasing a GBA ROM.

So what games rights have actually been purchased?

As someone else had already said, I can completely understand getting pissed off if someone released a rom of a game that you purchased the rights to before you had the chance to sell copies.

It would also make me feel a little better in knowing that many people here aren't being hypocritical when they criticize people selling roms on ebay.

[digitalpress]

I was informed the other night that with some of the games in question the rights have been purchased. In that case they do have the legal rights to determine what happens to the games. Maybe this is something that the people behind these releases should make a bigger issue out of, that releasing the ROMS that they legally have the rights to is the same damn thing as relasing a GBA ROM.

So what games rights have actually been purchased?

As someone else had already said, I can completely understand getting pissed off if someone released a rom of a game that you purchased the rights to before you had the chance to sell copies.

It would also make me feel a little better in knowing that many people here aren't being hypocritical when they criticize people selling roms on ebay.

I'm not involved in every CGE game release deal, but I was present when the contract was signed for Cube Quest, Pick-Up, Save the Whales, and Rush Hour (in fact, the entire company purchase - CommaVid - details can be found here: http://www.digitpress.com/archives/cc_commavid.htm ). I don't know if this is enough to satisfy you but I'm offering what I personally know as fact.

[digitalpress]

2. I don't know all the details about this one but if there is extra money left over after the "send a member to cge expo contest", then it should be put in a reserve for said contest next year imho. There is no way to do refunds on a raffle, but unless you said leftover funds would go towards the running of CGE then thats how it should be handled imho. I don't know joe personally, but I don't think he is trying to pocket any difference.

All you need to find out if there were extra funds is to ask the winners, "dreams" and "maxlords". Their travel and hotel arrangements were made and reimbursed up to $500 (both of which exceeded that amount). We only allowed 50 contestants into each game. Who's doing the math here?

I'm a little insulted, Ed. You've been around here long enough to know we wouldn't pull a scam like that.

[AB Positive]

Hey, this is almost relevant...

F- to Ed Oscuro for bad math practices.

There's no real reason for me to chime in here, except that I'm rather pissed off that the thread at AA was locked. Again. That is the only thing that bothers me over there... no allowing for any differing views. It's laughable.

I'd call it something but we'd all have to take a shot and I'm allergic to alcohol.

-AG

[jetset516]

Its really stupid that people think its a "war" between DP and AA :roll:
So a few people have been burned ( I know it sucks )

But I think 99% of DPers and 99% of the AA nation are probably cool with
each other. I was reading the link over at AA and wasnt suprised at all to see it locked :roll: Hmmm , so how come things cant be discussed ina civalized way out in the open ? Oh wait ! They can be right here :P


On a side note : WTF is up with all the other drama in this thread :o

* Offers cake up to everybody with the bad mojo

Agreed brother! I like both sites, though I do spend more time @ AA.....

Can I still have some cake? :angel:

[ianoid]

I thought briefly of writing Albert for his side of the story as he mentioned in his post, but then I don't want to waste his time or mine. I don't really care! I think it would be fun to hear the AA guys side of the story or the DP guys side of the story over a beer, but it's not worth 30 min of typing to me. I can certainly see why both of these powerhouses of classic gaming would have opportunities to step on each other's toes.

There have always been release issues, as long as new code has been discovered in this hobby. There have always been show issues since CGE started. There have always been personal conflicts- since the dawn of time. These things won't cease. But I am regretful that we won't see a show with DP and AA in attendance because both have SO much to offer the classic gaming community.

[brykasch]

Whoa hey I was never complaining about anything related to the raffle just responding to the first post by Ed about it. If I was worried or anything else I woulda asked the winners and/or you:) Like I said I never had any doubts about it, just giving some what ifs:)

Besides if I lost 10 bucks in a raffle I sure as hell wouldn't be pissin and moanin about it:)

[captain nintendo]

F- to Ed Oscuro for bad math practices.


Is that really necessary ? We dont need this thread locked . Even if you disagree with Ed.



I'm rather pissed off that the thread at AA was locked. Again. That is the only thing that bothers me over there... no allowing for any differing views. It's laughable.

-AG

Pretty much what I said ;)





Can I still have some cake?


You sure can 8-)

[Queen Of The Felines]

Um, F- was the grade he gave Ed, not a disguised "F- You." ;)

Kristine

[AB Positive]

Um, F- was the grade he gave Ed, not a disguised "F- You." ;)

Kristine

Yeah, that's just something I do... Like "F Minus to me" or "F Minus to you" or something. It's my little way of prodding at mistake, no biggie. I can see where you'd think it was something more though.

Hey JetSet - what kinda cake d'you like? All the stuff over here's chocolate but I'm sure others have something else if you prefer.

I'll trade a slice of chocolate for pinapple upside-down cake. MMM... Pineapple upside down cake.

-AG

[captain nintendo]

Um, F- was the grade he gave Ed, not a disguised "F- You." ;)

Kristine



My bad :embarrassed:




Yeah, that's just something I do... Like "F Minus to me" or "F Minus to you" or something. It's my little way of prodding at mistake, no biggie. I can see where you'd think it was something more though.



Good times ! I should have know you wouldnt stoop to such a level ;)


Your cake request has been granted :D

[Ed Oscuro]

Oh, shit.

I came up with the "money towards CGE" example as an idea of something that somebody could come up with. We all know it's ridiculous, right? That said, what's to say somebody couldn't possibly see a problem there, watching from the sidelines?

Anyhow, I thought it was obvious that was an example of an area in which the DP Crowd knows better but other folks don't; it's pretty damned easy to create problems when money's involved unless you're VERY clear about things.

"But, oh, Ed, we were?" I knew what the money was going towards (I've entered the to-CGE contest three times in the last two years, twice this year) but if folks like yourselves can misunderstand my point with those examples, what's to say somebody can skim through all the rules text or just have a nagging doubt "where did all that money go" (Nevermind that there have always been a SET number of slots) sort of question - indeed I almost forgot about that in the interval since then myself.

Ironic that the example itself would cause a classic example of the sort of confusion I'm trying to illustrate can exist. Judging from a PM I just got, it really hit a nerve, too.

So anyhow...lesson learned, right?

friends? :o

[Ed Oscuro]

Hmm...so, to clarify:

1.) No, I don't have a grudge against Joe for supposedly (as the fictitious person holding a grudge whose viewpoint I take) living off of our own work and "selling it back to us." I don't even think that happens. If this were the ANA we'd all pay dues, there'd be paid officials and that would be that...right? No, they can have problems with people dipping into the general fund, too. All things considered, we've got it damn good in that nobody in our community has been tempted to skim off the top.

2.) Yeah, I already explained about the to-CGE thing. Another area in which some poor sod thinks that DP is taking hard earned cash and putting it into a slush fund. It's very easily explained that nothing is going on here and nothing can go wrong, seeing how this actually IS a zero-sum contest, with every penny going to that person's stay ("but what if their fare is less than $500," etc.) Ridiculous, but suppose you have to argue that on top of other issues...something simple - such as much of the issues in this business of reselling ROMs (i.e. folks claiming DP can't release ROMs, talking in highly abstract terms and making it hard to track what we're talking about) can inflate something simple like this into a major issue that can't be explained away as it should be.

3.) I guess the money issues ARE well explained; it's been a while since I've thought about it. For goodness sake, I'm a regular, too! It's often much easier for somebody out on the sidelines to make factual mistakes of this sort (take my recent mini-tirade against is-it-Shawn of N-G.com or is it Dion? Another silly mistake which, as you see, was no less the source of some real misguided sentiment) than it is for somebody else to correct them...and while bogus GUTs (Grand Unification Theories) take real time away from professors and scientists, ill will for bad reasons can take up lots of our time as well - especially if this becomes another forum free-for-all with everybody throwing in their two cents. I would like to say that I'm 100% behind Digital Press and everybody here, but as I just demonstrated sometimes even ardent supporters can cause further problems by inadverdently causing even more trouble.

[Leo_A]

I'm confused, what's the problem here?

People that bought carts at some gaming show dumped them for others to use?

Unless you guys own the rights to the game, what's there to debate? I know I'd dump any 25 year old game that I purchased from somone who doesn't even own any rights to it...

"By the way, you may have noticed that the 2003 CGE releases are now available, courtesy of AtariAge. How ironic that this upstanding business takes it upon themselves to release CGE's games to the public, yet they do not even acknowledge to their public that the Expo itself exists!"

Unless you own the rights to the game, how are they your games? Seems anyone that can get their hands on it has just as much right to release it as you do...

You do own the rights to these games, right? I didn't read the whole thread, its 4AM almost here, but if so I can understand the problems.

[digitalpress]

You do own the rights to these games, right? I didn't read the whole thread, its 4AM almost here, but if so I can understand the problems.

Yeah. Check the second post on this page.

This isn't the pupose of this post, however. They posted the ROMS, I didn't cry about it, I politely asked to have them removed. The problem I have is that that request was not even responded to - not by the original poster, OR by the site's administrators (who, according to my message outbox, READ that request).

And that is just the tip of the iceberg, of course. Feel free to read through the rest of this thread to catch up with the real issues at hand here.

[Griking]

In reguards to AA releasing the roms to the 2003 CGE, I just made a visit to the CGE homepage and found no information anywhere about where I'd be able to purchase any of the games in question.

ARE the 2003 games still available for purchase? I thought that I've read a few times that left overs are always available for purchase. Where?

[digitalpress]

In reguards to AA releasing the roms to the 2003 CGE, I just made a visit to the CGE homepage and found no information anywhere about where I'd be able to purchase any of the games in question.

ARE the 2003 games still available for purchase? I thought that I've read a few times that left overs are always available for purchase. Where?

Thanks for asking that!

They're available, the page was changed prior to the 2004 promotion so we can focus on this year's products (I keep accidentally overlaying the Starpath set that we've been promoting the last six weeks). If you're interested, they're still for sale here:

http://www.cgexpo.com/merch1old.htm

Unless the remaining stock is sold at this year's show, that page will be featured again shortly afterwards.

[CX2K]

Sorry for the late response here but I've been super busy with work and last minute CGE planning.

I just wanted to post some facts about CGE and the ROM issue for all to see since it's often confusing for people to distinguish who is involved.

As is often the problem, people tend to lump DP, CGE, Joe, Sean, and myself into one big entity. This is understandable as our work is so often intertwined but there are many occasions when we're involved with projects independently.

Just for the record here are the games released by CGE over the years:

CGE 2002 - Pick Up, Crack'ed, Save the Whales, Cube Quest

CGE 2003 - Looping, Rush Hour, The Entity

That's it. Any other games were released independently by individuals or vendors including Elevator Action which was released by Sean Kelly. One AA poster seemed to think that we had released Snow White which definitely isn't true.

We have never claimed to own the copyrights on any of the above games except Rush Hour which we got when we purchased the CommaVid catalog from the original game designers and company owners. For most of the games we either received permission or paid the original programmers for permission to release their games.

We don't have a problem with the ROMs for these games being released. We never formally released them because we knew they were already out there, even if not posted publicly. We certainly do realize that once a game is sold, anyone can copy it and distribute it. Since we use the money to fund CGE, we try to delay the public release of those ROMs as long as possible although we know they're being traded behind the scenes. Take note how quickly Albert posted the CGE 2003 ROMs right before he locked the thread on AA. I would be foolish if I thought that those ROMs weren't already zipped and sitting on his desktop ready to be sent to anyone who asked.

A big part of this dispute that Joe and others have mentioned is in regards to the posting of the CGE 2002 ROMs on AA. We made amends with Albert at PhillyClassic the year before last stemming from a previous incident (which I'll discuss in another message). Right after the show, an individual posted the CGE 2002 ROMs in a thread at AA. Both Joe and I emailed Albert and politely asked him to remove the ROMs. Neither of us received a response and we tried to catch Albert in AIM to ask him to delete them. We received no response from him on AIM as well. A couple of days later, the ROM for one of the games AA is selling gets posted to DP and when Joe sees it he deletes it. Albert then accuses Joe of deliberately waiting a whole day to delete the rom. Meanwhile, the ROMs for our releases are STILL sitting in their message forums to this day. Hello? Can we say hypocrite? Joe then caught Albert on AIM where he proceeded to tell Joe that we were gouging the community, that we had enough time to sell the games, and that it was our fault if we made too many copies.

There is a big misconception in the comunity that DP/CGE has tons of unreleased games that we're hoarding. This simply isn't true. While we do have a few games that haven't been released, there is usually a reason - such as there is a problem running them or retrieving them from their source data. We've gotten offers of help on these issues but unfortunately just haven't had time to play around with them. The three 7800 games especially need some work and Matt keeps mentioning a game called Underworld by CommaVid. All we have is an old cassette tape with Underworld written on it. We've tried to access it with the help of our friends at Digital Eclipse but were unsuccessful.

These rumors are being perpetuated by the AA administration and certain moderators to the point where they're being taken as fact by their community. You'd be hard-pressed to find a thread on AA involving ROM releases that didn't mention us and have several subtle jabs at us by AA staff. You might not notice the cheap shots at first but if you know there's a dispute between us you can see them clearly. One of our critics there, an Activision employee, frequently makes references to us as the "SJ Poachers", "SJ People", etc.... very professional.

Also, let me reiterate that the issue here is more than just releasing ROMs. It has to do with SEVERAL attempts to strongarm people into not dealing with us, attempts to damage CGE's reputation and the show itself, and several other underhanded events that I'll be happy to share should the situation require.

Well, I've rambled long enough but let me leave with one final thing. We have honestly tried to move beyond this but the constant cheap shots on AA and constant censorship preventing us from defending ourselves there has gone on for too long. I'm sure Joe agrees that we've taken the high road by keeping quiet on these issues until now. At some point you have to stand up and defend yourself.

And beyond it all, we're still willing to try and discuss this to work things out. Realizing that there will never be any level of trust between us, we CAN eliminate the public bickering and harassment, and co-exist peacefully.

We're just interested in getting back to the ideals that DP and CGE were formed on: having fun playing games and getting together with others who share our enthusiasm.

Game ON!

John

[Kamino]

*Stabs Albert*
*Stabs Joe*
*sees they both bleed red*
....Could we just TRY to get along here?

[SpasticFuctard]

A minor point that is almost entirely unrelated:

Profiteer/Profiteering: This term, given to one who takes a profit is almost universally perceived as a bad thing.

Where is all the outcry for the world needing more Losseers? Break-eveneers? There isn't any, because they aren't words. They arent words because if you make a habit of losing or breaking even, eventually you starve to death.

The anti-competitive/anti-capatliast mentality is sickening to me.

SF - Lassiez-faire Capitalist in the flesh.

[Kepone]

Not to be a clueless idiot, but could someone please tell me more about my copy of the Rush Hour reproduction that was released at CGE 2003? Like, how does this factor into the latest dispute?

I think I got it from le_geek on EBay but I don't remember.

[digitalpress]

Not to be a clueless idiot, but could someone please tell me more about my copy of the Rush Hour reproduction that was released at CGE 2003? Like, how does this factor into the latest dispute?

I think I got it from le_geek on EBay but I don't remember.

I'm not sure I follow you. If you got Rush Hour from an eBay auction, there's no dispute at all - that game had already been sold to someone.

If you're asking about the history of the game itself, this link may help:
http://www.digitpress.com/archives/cc_commavid.htm

I presume you have the game now, but the details of the game itself are here:
http://www.digitpress.com/archives/cc_rushhour.htm

Does this answer your question at all?

[Kim Possible]

A minor point that is almost entirely unrelated:

Profiteer/Profiteering: This term, given to one who takes a profit is almost universally perceived as a bad thing.

Where is all the outcry for the world needing more Losseers? Break-eveneers? There isn't any, because they aren't words. They arent words because if you make a habit of losing or breaking even, eventually you starve to death.

The anti-competitive/anti-capatliast mentality is sickening to me.

SF - Lassiez-faire Capitalist in the flesh.

yeah, and slavery was once a widely spread and accepted practice as well. :roll:


Anyway, I personally find all of the website rivalry business tired. I've never understood it, never liked it, and would love to see it all come to an end, the sooner the better. We all love video games, we all play them, I'm not sure why people feel the need to get petty in regards to them. Its all about the love.

I appreciate the efforts of anyone who does anything to further the hobby and especially those who work to preserve the history of classic games. It doesn't really make a difference to me if they are "from" DP, AA, or anywhere else.