Stupid Microsoft Rant

[sisko]

Yeah yeah, I'm sure there have been dozen of these, but I'm really pissed right now.

Keep in mind that XBox 2 years old, but rarely played. I have logged significantly less than 100 hours of play time on it since I have owned it, its just not my system of choice. I also never move or bump my system. Aside from the few finger prints I just put on the console so I could read the serial, the system is MINT.

I recently bought Crimson Skies for the XBox. I love it to death, and have logged 15-20 hours on the game already. The problem is that the game kept randomly freezing up with a disc read error, which sucks when missions are at least an hour long.

So I took the game back and swapped it out for a new copy. Same problem, only I just realized that it happens when I load missions or submissions.

I realized quickly that it was a defective drive, and not the game itself.

I called up the 800 number to verify what was going on, and the memory file might be corrupted. What? This doesn't make any sense! Why would a memory save cause issues regarding disc reads? I called the bluff and didn't delete the file.

She insisted that that was the problem, when I stopped playing coy and pointed out that faulty drives are an ongoing problem. She stated I could get the unit repaired for $92 since it was out of warranty.

$92?! They sell me a unit with a KNOWN defect, and then they want ME to pay for THEIR screw up? Even SONY owned up to their mistakes and fixes their units at their expense.

So now I have a buggy XBox. I have no intentions of paying $150 for a replacement unit, I have no intentions of paying $150 to get this one repaired (including S&H), and I certainly will not buy an XBox 2 when it comes out. I also probably wont buy another XBox title for fear it won't work with their shitty hardware.

Fuck Microsoft. Everything is exclusively a PS2 or GCN title for me now.








I feel a little better now :)

[NoahsMyBro]

Windows ME

..<SHUDDER>....

[bluberry]

I had the same problem, and then I cleaned the lens. Mine only started to get bad after about, oh, WAY TOO MANY hours of playing.

And Sony only owned up to it thanks to some people starting a class action lawsuit, IIRC. Maybe we should start the same thing for MS? :evil:

I also noticed that only certain games had problems. Gunvalkyrie stuttered a lot when I tried to look at the map, and Halo sometimes half loaded a level... and then the bar went backwards. XD

[fahrvergnugen]

Just to make sure I've got the story straight: You have a product that's at least 730 days old, but is only warrantied for 90 days. Yet because the manufacturer won't repair the product for free, they're in the wrong, and it's okay for you to curse them out?

Sounds to me like they're the ones with a problem, not you. They're saddled with a customer who thinks the fine print doesn't apply to him somehow because he barely touched his expensive product; a customer who decided to call them up to try and get something for nothing.

If you think a warranty longer than 90 days is necessary, then by all means, buy an extended warranty. Plenty of retailers are willing to offer them on their products. It's generous of Microsoft to even offer for-pay replacement. They're not contractually or legally bound to do so, and it sounds like they're not making a whole lot of profit on the X-box repair business, either.

If you think $150-$300 is an excessive price to pay for a product that is only warrantied for 90 days (I would agree with you on this point), then you're free not to spend your money on this item, and to look for a product offering from a competing vendor that perhaps offers a more comprehensive warranty (Hint: None do).

Posting here and complaining that you couldn't get something you weren't entitled to for free just because you feel like you somehow deserve it just makes you look like a whiner.

[sisko]

Just to make sure I've got the story straight: You have a product that's at least 730 days old, but is only warrantied for 90 days. Yet because the manufacturer won't repair the product for free, they're in the wrong, and it's okay for you to curse them out?

Sounds to me like they're the ones with a problem, not you. They're saddled with a customer who thinks the fine print doesn't apply to him somehow because he barely touched his expensive product; a customer who decided to call them up to try and get something for nothing.

If you think a warranty longer than 90 days is necessary, then by all means, buy an extended warranty. Plenty of retailers are willing to offer them on their products. It's generous of Microsoft to even offer for-pay replacement. They're not contractually or legally bound to do so, and it sounds like they're not making a whole lot of profit on the X-box repair business, either.

If you think $150-$300 is an excessive price to pay for a product that is only warrantied for 90 days (I would agree with you on this point), then you're free not to spend your money on this item, and to look for a product offering from a competing vendor that perhaps offers a more comprehensive warranty (Hint: None do).

Posting here and complaining that you couldn't get something you weren't entitled to for free just because you feel like you somehow deserve it just makes you look like a whiner.

There's a difference. Microsoft KNOWS about this widespread problem. It is NOT an isolated incident. They STILL sold the defective units, and they refuse to rectify their mistakes. I didn't know I was stuck with one until a certain very specific criterea was met two years down the road.

They never offered a replacement either. When I said that, the replacement would be me going out to gamestop and buying another [probably] defective unit.

[bluberry]

Aside from my "get the dust" off problem, nobody I know has a faulty Xbox. And I know about thirty people with Xboxes. It's not that widespread, not even close to how bad PS2s are. I still like my "slap with lawsuit" idea, though. Worked with Sony.

[fahrvergnugen]

Microsoft KNOWS their drives fail after 90 days, but they only warrantied that the drive would work for 90 days in the first place.

In other words, the drives last exactly as long as Microsoft promised they would in the warranty agreement, or the drive will be replaced or repaired for free.

I mean, it's great that the newer ones last for years, but again, Microsoft only promised that it would work for 90 days after the time of purchase, and you've had yours at least 730 days.

So uh, how are they the bad guys again?

[le geek]

<= Boots up M$ Bob!

:rocker:

[fahrvergnugen]

:rocker:

[SoulBlazer]

I think what he's trying to get at is that one HOPES not to have any problems with something they paid $200+ for and hardly use over a period of two years.

I'm glad EB had a longer warrenty when I got my XBox used from them. :)

[rpepper9]

Sue Everybody! Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu-eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[Kamino]

i'll back sisko on this one. This is crap, man. Even nintendo gives out new 72 pin connectors for nes after nearly 20 years how many days is THAT?
On another note, Are we going to be seeing a XBOX GAMES FOR SALE thread from you, Karl? ;) I DID just move away from cart collecting and back to the current generation, and this copy of KOTOR is telling me that my xbox is working fine..:P

[YoshiM]

Just out of curiosity, do you other games work? What about proper air flow-is there enough clearance along the sides and back of the Xbox? If you have the DVD kit, have you tried removing it? Also, is your box modded? These could be issues of the lock up. As for clearing out memory saves or troubled games: that has fixed freezing problems in the past for some but those same people reported the problems resurfacing later.

Yes Microsoft did have problems with the drives early on, but like Sony they did "quiet" freebee repair jobs on release or near-release systems rather than a full out (and reputation damaging) recall. However many of those early problems dealt with "dirty disc" errors rather than "freezing".

I kinda have to agree with fahrvergnugen, MS has no obligation to fix the product after its warranty, even if there were problems early on. As long as they didn't do a recall or were nailed with a class action lawsuite, they probably won't do jack. From a business standpoint they can only stand behind a product for so long and 90 days parts/labor is the standard. That's why it's always good to get extended warranties on company's new/never done before products juuuust in case. But in your case the warranty would have been over anyway.

Three things you could possibly do:

1.) Fib a little and tell them you are getting dirty disc errors. Tell them you tried the file removal/unplugging for 45 minutes stuff. Then if they say you need to pay X amount of dollars, tell them people you know who had the same problem were able to send it in and others on the 'Net within the last few months were able to as well. Give them your serial number and ask if there is some sort of "list" of eligible serials that would get free repairs. If there is resistance, ask for the supervisor. Be calm. If you can't get results that way...

2.) Buy a Samsung replacement drive from eBay. They range from $65 to $89 (the latter with shipping might be more expensive than sending your 'box to MS) and the Samsung drive is the "better" drive from what I've read. If you are handy with a screwdriver you may want to look into this. If not...

3) Not buy an MS game system. Not to sound snotty, but don't support MS. Sell your games and move on. It's your right.

Good luck!

[EnemyZero]

Yeah, sorry dude but definitely can't back ya here. First of you really cant compare xbox's faults with ps2's, no one can...ps2 was a widespread fault as a whole. Everyones bound to get a faulty system from any manufacturer, its bound to happen. After working in retail for 4 years now I can say if I got a person who explained to me what you said, it tell them to go to hell, because they have limited warrenties for a reason, if they backed up all there products for about 2 years then they'd loose lots of money.

[Garry Silljo]

My brother and I both got faulty boxes, and they were repaired for free. Mine was even slightly out of warranty when it happened to. The difference is we tried to get them to fix it when the problem was surfacing for everyone. Over a year after the fact, they think you should have acted by now and I agree. If you didnt play the thing enough to test it out and be sure it was all good, that's your fault. Further if you were going to play it so little, why buy it?

[sisko]

I think what he's trying to get at is that one HOPES not to have any problems with something they paid $200+ for and hardly use over a period of two years.

I'm glad EB had a longer warrenty when I got my XBox used from them. :)

Thats half of it. The other half is that Microsoft should stop selling units with the known problematic drive, or be willing to step up and offer outstanding support.


Are we going to be seeing a XBOX GAMES FOR SALE thread

Probably not, I do like the few games I have. I will probably buy Steel Battalion: LOC, and other games in the same series, but thats it.


Just out of curiosity, do you other games work? What about proper air flow-is there enough clearance along the sides and back of the Xbox? If you have the DVD kit, have you tried removing it? Also, is your box modded? These could be issues of the lock up. As for clearing out memory saves or troubled games: that has fixed freezing problems in the past for some but those same people reported the problems resurfacing later.

Yes Microsoft did have problems with the drives early on, but like Sony they did "quiet" freebee repair jobs on release or near-release systems rather than a full out (and reputation damaging) recall. However many of those early problems dealt with "dirty disc" errors rather than "freezing".

I kinda have to agree with fahrvergnugen, MS has no obligation to fix the product after its warranty, even if there were problems early on. As long as they didn't do a recall or were nailed with a class action lawsuite, they probably won't do jack. From a business standpoint they can only stand behind a product for so long and 90 days parts/labor is the standard. That's why it's always good to get extended warranties on company's new/never done before products juuuust in case. But in your case the warranty would have been over anyway.

Three things you could possibly do:

1.) Fib a little and tell them you are getting dirty disc errors. Tell them you tried the file removal/unplugging for 45 minutes stuff. Then if they say you need to pay X amount of dollars, tell them people you know who had the same problem were able to send it in and others on the 'Net within the last few months were able to as well. Give them your serial number and ask if there is some sort of "list" of eligible serials that would get free repairs. If there is resistance, ask for the supervisor. Be calm. If you can't get results that way...

2.) Buy a Samsung replacement drive from eBay. They range from $65 to $89 (the latter with shipping might be more expensive than sending your 'box to MS) and the Samsung drive is the "better" drive from what I've read. If you are handy with a screwdriver you may want to look into this. If not...

3) Not buy an MS game system. Not to sound snotty, but don't support MS. Sell your games and move on. It's your right.

Good luck!

All of the other games I have work perfectly. There is plenty of air flow, its not on carpet, there are no mod chips, no DVD kit etc. etc. Its just as it was when I pulled it out of the box brand new.

Maybe "freezing" wasn't descriptive enough. The game would hiccup, freeze, give me a DRE, then go to a frozen system screen with the same error.

I looked into replacement drives, and your'e right about the Samsung, though I haven't found it for that low of a price, nearly double that, though I haven't checked eBay.

I remained calm on the phone. I didn't yell or curse at the lady, though I admit I did start to lose it a bit when the only response I was repeatedly getting was "give us money or fuck off" She already has my information and serial so she probably put some nasty comments. Maybe I'll have my girlfriend call again in a couple of weeks >.>

[fahrvergnugen]

Thats half of it. The other half is that Microsoft should stop selling units with the known problematic drive, or be willing to step up and offer outstanding support.

As far as I know, they did stop selling systems with non-Samsung drives quite a while ago. And I know from personal experience that they do offer outstanding support... as long as you're under warranty, or are willing to pay for it.

You just want something for free, because you feel entitled to it. Wake up and smell the reality, nobody owes you anything here.

[QBert]

What if you delete your save file for that game?
Sure you have 15-20 hours on that game but its cheaper than a new Xbox or drive.
Plus playing those levels again wont take you that long the second time.

Just a easy fix, and you'd end up losing that info anyways. ;)

[sisko]

Thats half of it. The other half is that Microsoft should stop selling units with the known problematic drive, or be willing to step up and offer outstanding support.

As far as I know, they did stop selling systems with non-Samsung drives quite a while ago. And I know from personal experience that they do offer outstanding support... as long as you're under warranty, or are willing to pay for it.

You just want something for free, because you feel entitled to it. Wake up and smell the reality, nobody owes you anything here.

I stand corrected. I know a few people that have recently gotten new systems with Thomson drives. They must have just gotten older stock which is entirely feasable. But that also means they didn't bother to pull the known problematic units from the market.

[Jibbajaba]

I had a DRE problem with my playstation 2, and they fixed it for free. If it is a known glitch, then Microsoft should fix it for free. In fact, they should have recalled the systems when the problem became widespread, as Sony should have as well. Some people around here think that the bare minimum is acceptable when it comes to the quality of a product. If a product works for 90 days, then you got what you paid for. I for one did not buy a PS2 so I could play it for 90 days, and I don't think Sisko bought an x-box so he could play his for 90 days. There is a reasonable expectation that when you buy a product and take good care of it, that it will remain in working order for a reasonable amount of time. If drives are spontaneously crapping out after a couple of years of light use, then there is definitely something wrong with that product. It's not like Sisko is asking for a brand new system, or even a refurbished system. All he is asking for is that the company repair his system at their expense since they sold defective merchadise. If a company wants to hide behind a 90 day warranty and not stand behind their product, then that company is not worthy of my money as a consumer. Companies wouldn't be trying to pull this kind of shit on consumers if there werent ass-clowns out there who were stupid enough to agree with the policy and be perfectly willing to march to their local retailer 91 days after they bought an x-box and purchase a new one because the first one broke. Its good that we have people like Sisko who are willing to stand up and say "Fuck You" to Microsoft instead of getting in line like sheep behind a company with shitty standards of quality.

Chris

[fahrvergnugen]

There is a reasonable expectation that when you buy a product and take good care of it, that it will remain in working order for a reasonable amount of time.

Microsoft agrees with you, wholeheartedly! And that reasonable period of time in this case just happened to be....

(drum roll, please)

90 DAYS!

(tada.wav)

When designing and building something, engineers choose parts to meet the product specifications based on a variety of factors. Some of these are cost, durability, functionality, marketability, etc.

Now, say that Microsoft knew that by using Brand Y DVD-ROM drives for the X-Box, they could be sure that their machine would not fail for over three years. But, if they use these drives, the X-Box will be $330. Alternately, they could also use the Thompson drives, which would mean the X-Box could be sold for only $300, but they could only guarantee them for 90 days.

Someone else figures out that by selling the X-Box for $330, they will sell 125,000 less units in the first year of release than if they sell it for $300. Obviously the $299 price point is important, and Microsoft has learned 3DO's lesson, so they make the call. The market has spoken, and the 3-year warranty feature is unimportant when compared to getting the price tag in at $299. Microsoft goes with the cheaper Thompson drive, and sells it with a 90-day warranty, for $300.

Now, that warranty is no trivial agreement. It is Microsoft being so confident that the X-Box will work for 90 days after it is taken out of the packaging that they're willing to put it into a legal document. They're willing to go to court and say that a reasonable person using their product the way it was intended to be used should find said product free of defect for 90 days. But Microsoft knows exactly what parts they put in the X-Box, and they know that after 90 days, all bets are off. And so should anyone who buys one.


Companies wouldn't be trying to pull this kind of shit on consumers if there werent ass-clowns out there who were stupid enough to agree with the policy and be perfectly willing to march to their local retailer 91 days after they bought an x-box and purchase a new one because the first one broke.

Products wouldn't cost so much if huge customer service organizations weren't required to support self-reightous ass-clowns that don't read the fine print, who think the world owes them something for being ignorant.

[YoshiM]

I had a DRE problem with my playstation 2, and they fixed it for free. If it is a known glitch, then Microsoft should fix it for free. In fact, they should have recalled the systems when the problem became widespread, as Sony should have as well.

Do any of you have any idea what effect a recall would have? It'd be a PR nightmare and a sullying of a brand name, not to mention investors that would crap kittens at the prospect. Like it or not, it's all about the Benjamins and if they can take care of problems without a nationally publisized recall they'll do it.


Some people around here think that the bare minimum is acceptable when it comes to the quality of a product. If a product works for 90 days, then you got what you paid for. I for one did not buy a PS2 so I could play it for 90 days, and I don't think Sisko bought an x-box so he could play his for 90 days. There is a reasonable expectation that when you buy a product and take good care of it, that it will remain in working order for a reasonable amount of time.

So what is a "reasonable amount of time"? Six months? A year? Two years? The longer the time the harder it is to determine whether a problem occurred during "normal wear and tear" (thus not covered by warranty) or if the problem was due to a defect (covered by warranty). Typically in a device of that complexity, the possiblity of defects occurs most during the first 90 days of use, which Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo will cover at their expense (except maybe shipping to them). The entertainment investment is typically used a LOT during this time so beyond 90 days the likelihood of problems from defect lessens.

If a company does have long warranties it just opens up the possibility of abuse and yes people WILL try to use long warranties to their advantage. For companies to pay for shipping and having a tech go over a supposed "defective" unit and find out it was either worn out or abused costs money. To support that the company would probably have to raise prices and thus make their product unappealing to those who don't want to spend more money. A lot of things are connected when determining a price.



If drives are spontaneously crapping out after a couple of years of light use, then there is definitely something wrong with that product. It's not like Sisko is asking for a brand new system, or even a refurbished system. All he is asking for is that the company repair his system at their expense since they sold defective merchadise. If a company wants to hide behind a 90 day warranty and not stand behind their product, then that company is not worthy of my money as a consumer. Companies wouldn't be trying to pull this kind of shit on consumers if there werent ass-clowns out there who were stupid enough to agree with the policy and be perfectly willing to march to their local retailer 91 days after they bought an x-box and purchase a new one because the first one broke. Its good that we have people like Sisko who are willing to stand up and say "Fuck You" to Microsoft instead of getting in line like sheep behind a company with shitty standards of quality.

Again, light use or not they have to stand by a support of time. In the case of sisko's, since his other games work fine, it could be the laser is just slightly out of alignment and the Crimson Skies is a bit touchy with it. Warranty wouldn't cover that if that's what's wrong. Or it could be the disk itself was part of a "bad batch" (see the release of the Dreamcast and I think the PS2).

Your system purchase gets you 90 days warranty. If you want more time you pay more. It's like that with practically every product built today from toasters to HDTVs. To say "F-U" to Microsoft you'd pretty much have to say the same thing to every company.

[Azazel]

Another good reason never to own an X-Box

[Jibbajaba]

Azazel: exactly.


To say "F-U" to Microsoft you'd pretty much have to say the same thing to every company.

I have a launch PS2 that I bought on day one. That's right, nearly 4 years ago. They fixed it for me at no charge a few months ago. Nintendo still gives out new 72 pin connectors to customers who have blinky NES systems. So I'm afraid I don't follow your logic here.

Do I have any idea what effect a recall would have? Does Microsoft have any idea what effect building shitty systems had? That isn't bad PR?


Like it or not, it's all about the Benjamins and if they can take care of problems without a nationally publisized recall they'll do it.

I agree. A recall would be horrible PR, but the problem is that they aren't "taking care of problems" at all. Charging someone $92 to fix an X-Box is ludicrous. Considering that they are guilty of using cheap-ass parts, they could AT LEAST meet the customer half way on the repair charges.


So what is a "reasonable amount of time"? Six months? A year? Two years?

I think a year is completely fair. If a car can come with a 10 year warranty, then it isnt asking too much for a game system to come with a 1 year warranty. A car sure experiences a lot more wear and tear than an x-box does unless it is abused.

Fahrfegnugen: You're right. Thsoe of us who bought Microsoft products thinking that the Microsoft name stood for quality are apparently ignorant. Obviously Sisko for one learned a lesson here in that he won't be giving Microsoft any of his money anymore.

You were rude to sisko from your first post in this thread. I see that you are a newb, so maybe you're lost. I think you meant to go here:

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/

[omnedon]

If you need a new XBOX DVDrom drive, pm me. Easy to install, and the ones I have are new, and ship tested. Lots cheaper than the fix MS is offering you.
:)

pm me if interested. I have lots now, so I'm happy to sell to forum members.

Early Xboxes with Thomson drives are dying left right and center. A cleaning will improve performance, usually for a week or two, but the failure is inevitable IMO.

[Backgammon]

I agree wholeheartedly with jibbajaba. These damn companys like Sony and MS do this kind of crap only because there are sheepish people who will happily bent over to them . So they sell you a defective product that they know are defective and when it's break on your face you should worship them and give more money... Bullshit!

You could sue them but I don't think it's worth the problem. Just say FY Microsoft and buy a GC. Nintendo at least respect their customers.

[SoulBlazer]

On a related note, it's not just game systems. It seems EVERYTHING is built cheaply these days. :o Days used to be you could get a TV, VCR, toaster, microwave, etc and have them last for YEARS even with heavy use. Hell, my folks have a Quasar TV that is almost 20 years old and it STILL works just fine!

Given that we're paying MORE for this stuff then in the past, when you factor in inflation, why can't we have either better quality stuff or longer warrenties?

That's why I always get extended warrneties on everything I can. If the maker does'nt offer it, I buy from a store that does. Example: When I got my reciever and speakers last year, I bought them from Best Buy. After both the marker's warrenty and Best Buy's warrenty I have those suckers protected for the next five years. :)

[Dreamscape]

If you need a new XBOX DVDrom drive, pm me. Easy to install, and the ones I have are new, and ship tested. Lots cheaper than the fix MS is offering you.
:)

pm me if interested. I have lots now, so I'm happy to sell to forum members.

Early Xboxes with Thomson drives are dying left right and center. A cleaning will improve performance, usually for a week or two, but the failure is inevitable IMO.

The Thomson drives you say? How can you tell if your XBOX has one of these cheap drives, or if it has a good drive? I did not buy my XBOX when it first came out, I got it when the price dropped to $199. I have had it for a well over a year, and I have used it a lot. It still works great, but I don't want it to go bad on me.

[omnedon]

The vast majority of Xboxes have Thomsons, and most of my new drives are Thomsons (though I do have a line on new Philips drives in the future). 2 -3 years is the best you can hope for from Thomson IMO. Some people get much less. Modding your Xbox with a larger HD reduces stress on the DVDrom drive, and will extend it's life much farther.

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=17216 Non invasive drive ID info here.

[sisko]

I guess my main beef is that the drive crapped out after so little use.

Don't get me wrong, my PS2 drive crapped out after 2 years as well, and I was royally pissed. The main difference is that I had well over 75 PSX/PS2 titles, and was HEAVILY used. Just as well taken care of, but had THOUSANDS of hours of gameplay on it. Yes it died, but at least it paid its dues.

I just estimated that with the 5 XBox games I have played, I've gotten roughly 60-65 hours use out of it. Am I that naive to expect that a $200 piece of a equipment should last just long enough to complete roughly two games before causing significant and serious problems that affect the usability of the machine?

Omnedon, YGPM :)

[Jibbajaba]

Soulblazer makes an excellent point. Electronic equipment is definitely not built with the same level of quality that it used to be, but it's also cheaper than it used to be with the exception of game systems. If companies like Sony and Microsoft are going to make soddy equipment, then it should cost less than the machines of yore, but they dont. A discman costs like $50 now but they were several hundred dollars when they came out. These days they are disposable. If it breaks you throw it away and buy another. But the price of video game systems is climbing every higher, and as such I think they should at least maintain the same level of quality. Think about it. We all have systems from the 70's and early 80's that still work. How many Xboxes and PS2s do you think will still work in 25 years? I get really dissapointed in people who post here defending MS and Sony and their policies only because they shouldnt be making such shoddy merchandise. Maybe I am one of the few people here who feels this way, but I hold these companies to a higher standard of quality than I do the cheap Famicom ripoffs that are sold in malls. Apparently MS and Sony don't feel that way though. So you keep defending your point, Fahrfegnugen, if you can keep the personal rancor out of it, but the day one of your systems that you have treated like a baby craps out on you, you might be singing a different tune.

Just watch it with those extended warranties. Those things are usually all profit. I used to work in electronics retail, and the biggest commissions we made were on those things. I buy it for things that are more likely to get damaged, like portable electronics. Places like best buy dont even care if the damage was the fault of the customer, and that's what makes their warranties a good deal.

Chris

[sisko]

I agree wholeheartedly with jibbajaba. These damn companys like Sony and MS do this kind of crap only because there are sheepish people who will happily bent over to them . So they sell you a defective product that they know are defective and when it's break on your face you should worship them and give more money... Bullshit!

You could sue them but I don't think it's worth the problem. Just say FY Microsoft and buy a GC. Nintendo at least respect their customers.

Heh. Yeah I made that decision earlier today. While I already have a GCN, I am going to support Nintendo during the next generation. By my experience, the quality of service and products are vastly superior to that of their competitors.

They are a funny company though. Within the last generation, Nintendo has left me feeling shafted several times as a long time loyal consumer, but they always seem to turn it around so I like them even more. :)

I'll probably get a PS3 too, but I'll wait for the first few price drops.

Xbox 2? Maybe when it hits the bargain bins.

[fahrvergnugen]

I think a year is completely fair. If a car can come with a 10 year warranty, then it isnt asking too much for a game system to come with a 1 year warranty. A car sure experiences a lot more wear and tear than an x-box does unless it is abused.

Hey, guess what? You can buy a year's warranty on your X-Box at time of purchase for only $15! That's right! For only $.19 each extra day, you can have coverage for an entire year! What a deal!


Fahrfegnugen:

*snip*

You were rude to sisko from your first post in this thread.

He set the tone of the thread in the first post with "Fuck Microsoft," which I followed up in kind. I was unaware that the rules of this forum required me to treat entitled crybabies with kid gloves. The sooner he gets his reality check, the sooner he'll stop crying when the world doesn't give him the living he thinks he's owed, and get to work.

Also, you mis-spelled my nick. Learn to copy/paste.

EDIT:

So you keep defending your point, Fahrfegnugen, if you can keep the personal rancor out of it, but the day one of your systems that you have treated like a baby craps out on you, you might be singing a different tune.

My release day X-Box DVD-ROM died last year, and I put in a replacement Thompson drive. Then the replacement died after 6 months, so I bit the bullet and bought a new X-Box last spring. This one came with a Samsung drive, and aside from having to replay my way through Steel Battallion and KOTOR because I couldn't copy the savegames, it wasn't a big deal. I bought the extended warranty on the new X-Box, too.

At $100-$120 refurb, X-Boxes are about the same price as two new games. That's just not that expensive, sorry.

[SoulBlazer]

I STILL feel damn video game consoles should last more then a year! My SNES has seen heavy use for over 10 years and it STILL goes right! I think people would pay higher prices for better quality parts.

[NoahsMyBro]

I've now seen at least two posts in this thread suggesting the quality of modern videogames is much lower than of the older systems.

There's a huge difference you guys seem to be overlooking:
The older systems were cartridge-based, and the new systems are disc-based. CD drives WILL croak, sooner or later. That's a fact, and you aren't going to be able to avoid it. I don't care how gingerly you treat your system, the drive will die sooner or later. I don't doubt that many 2600s will still be working 20 years from now. Finding a functional CD-based system over 10 years old will be pretty tough, though. Once you can no longer get a replacement drive for the system you may as well start preparing for it's eventual death.

Now, for a long time I debated the merits of cartridge vs. disc systems with friends, and I always preffered cart-based systems. However, I was always told that cartridges were simply too expensive and risky for publishers, and that was why many systems went to CDs. It appears the industry does indeed work that way, and the durability of carts isn't valued as highly as the cost savings of disc-based publishing.

NO disc-based system will ever be as durable as your VCS/Colecovision/SNES. That's one of the prices paid to have massive, cinematic games consuming multiple hundreds and thousands of megabytes of storage. It's simply a fact of life, and nothing can be done about it.

This rant has been brought to you by NoahsMyBro.

[Jibbajaba]

"Rantings of a 12-year old Microsoft Fanboy" by Fahrvergnugen.

So you have had to fix your X-Box TWICE. I think that says enough. Next.

Chris

[fahrvergnugen]

http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/forumimages/rolleyesbarf.gif

[omnedon]

$100-$120 refurb

refurb means used DVDrom drives.

Beware. If you want any part new, the DVDrom drive is the part.

[RCM]

My xbox shited out on me too. I figured it was best to start over and get a new one. With shipping costs it would be almost as much as getting a new one. It sucked that i lost all my game saves though. I took my faulty xbox apart afterward. It was kinda cool to see what's inside the piece of shit. Although i had to buy a new xbox i made my money back from MS in other ways. Not getting into how i did that though! Fuck Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo in the ear!

THE ONE, THE ONLY- RCM

[SoulBlazer]

I know disc based systems won't last as long as cart based systems, but I would hope they last more then a year. :roll:

My DVD drive in my PC has been going strong since 1998.

[Backgammon]

fahrvergnugen ((CTRL-C + CTRL-V) Happy?) If you don't work at microsoft and is entitled to defend them at any costs you are the worst case of fanboyism in this side of the galaxy... The Final Fantasy fanboys next to you are a bunch of amateurs.

Oh... by the way, I have a Discman with more than 5 years of good service from Panasonic.
MS = Windows = Shit
Why would you expect something good from that crappers?

[omnedon]

My DVD drive in my PC has been going strong since 1998

yeeessss..BUT your PC DVDrom drive loads games onto the HD, and then the HD does the vast amount of level loading, and sector seeking during game playing. DVD movie playing is an exception, but DVD movie playing is a low wear and tear function. Game playing involves level loading, sector seeking and some games like GTA3 load constantly without a break at all during gameplay.

Game consoles are very different, with the game playing directly from the disc media (for cost and anti piracy reasons only). I'm not convinced that disc media and disc drives were really designed for that level of constant seek and reading.

[Azazel]

My DVD drive in my PC has been going strong since 1998

yeeessss..BUT your PC DVDrom drive loads games onto the HD, and then the HD does the vast amount of level loading, and sector seeking during game playing. DVD movie playing is an exception, but DVD movie playing is a low wear and tear function. Game playing involves level loading, sector seeking and some games like GTA3 load constantly without a break at all during gameplay.

Game consoles are very different, with the game playing directly from the disc media (for cost and anti piracy reasons only). I'm not convinced that disc media and disc drives were really designed for that level of constant seek and reading.

It depends what you play on the PC. A lot of the stuff I use there is alot of loading but my drive still works great and I've had it for many years.

[omnedon]

I've never played anything on my PC that stresses a drive like GTA3 does. PC games that load levels from the DVDrom drive at least pause between levels. Many Xbox and PS2 games never stop loading.

[Ed Oscuro]

On a related note, it's not just game systems. It seems EVERYTHING is built cheaply these days. :o
I take it nobody was assigned Death of a Salesman in lit class? This ain't nothing new, folks...

[Jibbajaba]

I take it nobody was assigned Death of a Salesman in lit class? This ain't nothing new, folks...

I started reading it once, but in the middle of reading it the spine broke and the book fell apart. The publisher wanted $6 to fix it and I thought it was BS so I just started reading something else.

Chris

[fahrvergnugen]

fahrvergnugen ((CTRL-C + CTRL-V) Happy?) If you don't work at microsoft and is entitled to defend them at any costs you are the worst case of fanboyism in this side of the galaxy...

I'm just not in the Microsoft = evil bandwagon. Any company that size is too large to be pegged with some kind of blanket morality judgement. I happen to think that the Placeware division of Microsoft engages in some seriously shady business practices. I also happen to think the game & hardware divisions at Microsoft produce particularly high-quality products, and I enjoy them daily. You, I guess, do not share my opinions. That's okay, we can live with it without resorting to name-calling.

Anyway, I don't care if Sisko's complaining about service from Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, Sega, or Kentucky Fried Chicken. As long as the corporation is providing exactly what it promised it would provide at the time of sale, then I see no sign of wrongdoing on its part. I just see someone acting like a spoiled little kid because someone dared to tell him no. Someone had the audacity to say that no matter how entitled he may feel, they wouldn't give him, for free, something they never promised him in the first place.

Cry me a river.

[fahrvergnugen]

I take it nobody was assigned Death of a Salesman in lit class? This ain't nothing new, folks...

I started reading it once, but in the middle of reading it the spine broke and the book fell apart. The publisher wanted $6 to fix it and I thought it was BS so I just started reading something else.

Chris

I take back every bad thought I may ever have had about you. I mean this with great sincerity, that was the funniest thing I've read all day.

[Ed Oscuro]

Heh.

As for cartridge-based systems being more reliable, I've been having a hell of a time getting some of the carts I recently bought (Atomic Runner on the Genesis and CV II: Belmont's Revenge on the GameBoy Player, in particular) to work. How about the Astrocade? Recently we had some testimony that NOS units in the packing crates exhibited a 50% failure rate. Ouch. The XBox doesn't quite use bubble memory, but when you spend a few hundred hours in Morrowind things can get strange.

[stal]

here's a way to put your ms box to good use, check this out X_x

http://www.xbox-linux.org/

[Ed Oscuro]

I have never seen that website before in my life, this has changed my life around completely, thank you!!!!

Well, alright, I'm exaggerating, but thanks fer playin'.

[thegreatescape]

I also happen to think the game & hardware divisions at Microsoft produce particularly high-quality products

So youve had to buy 1x replacement xbox and 1x replacement dvd drive, but still call their hardware high quality? I wish i was as efficient at disposing of money as you are x_x

Sisko is right- just because MS fux people over doesnt mean they have to like it. Disclaimer or no disclaimer.

[stal]

ed oscuro,

no prob...thought with all the talk about MS and the box that i had to let people on to this great bit of DIY hacking.

get your $$$'s worth!!!

being a fan of TOS i must say, modern os's like windows kinda make me wonder... :hmm:

[Ed Oscuro]

Sorry, had to see if you'd bite like advertisers would. Set a spell, would ya? We'd be happy to have you, and I'm sure I can manage to be more polite next time ;D

[stal]

i don't sell the system, just thought people should know about this as an alternate use for their ms boxes.

were you rude?

[buttasuperb]

if i had multiple xbocks die on me, i'd buy a replacement each time before i'd buy a ps2 or gc.

[brykasch]

Well my original xbox crapped out on me during my first go around with KOTOR, it would play cd's but no games, It was the hd that was corrupted I believe but at the time I had no access to a ms xbox refresh disc. If you are having problems check on ebay I see em for around 25 or so, and they are much easier then getting a new system. Lost about 100 of pso on that box as well. Mine was just out of warranty so it would be the standard 99 to fix. Well I sold it on ebay for about that price got a samsung one and have had no problems since. My gamecube refurb I got from gamestop had issues as well. It would only play animal crossing (since it fit in the systems memory and didn't have to use the disc) but any other games would constantly give me dde. Sent it back and the other one has worked fine since. N has problems with theirs as well, but alot of it has to do with mishandling of the drives more than anything. I mean hell best buy had a protection program for the box for 35 when I got mine, I wish I had spent the money, and I will next time as 35 is alot cheaper than 299:) (got mine at launch)

[fahrvergnugen]

So youve had to buy 1x replacement xbox and 1x replacement dvd drive, but still call their hardware high quality? I wish i was as efficient at disposing of money as you are x_x

MS Mouse: 2 years+ old and still going.
MS keyboard: The same.
MS Joystick: 3 years+ old and still going
MS Gamepad: The same

Old X-Box: Lasted 2 years before crapping out, under heavy play.
New X-Box: 6 months old with heavy use, going strong.
X-Box controllers: Never broken on me.

Not to mention that in my opinion, the X-Box is easily the most technically impressive of the current generation of systems, yet costs about the same amount.

I'd call that a pretty high quality product, IMHO.

(and before the fanboys crawl out of the woodwork, yes, I'd consider the other current-gen systems high quality products, too)

[Backgammon]

... You, I guess, do not share my opinions. That's okay, we can live with it without resorting to name-calling.

Well, sorry if that sounded like flame or name-calling. If it is not fanboyism that's OK then. You have your opinions and I have mine.

But I still think it's shallow business practices. It' better to lose a dvd drive than a customer IMO.

[omnedon]

I wouldn't call all of the curreent consoles high quality. One stands out far and away as extremely unreliable. Repairing that system alone feeds my Neo Geo habit, and then some.

[Dreamscape]

Mine was just out of warranty so it would be the standard 99 to fix. Well I sold it on ebay for about that price got a samsung one and have had no problems since.

How can you tell if your XBOX has a Samsung drive?

[musical]

$92?! They sell me a unit with a KNOWN defect, and then they want ME to pay for THEIR screw up? Even SONY owned up to their mistakes and fixes their units at their expense.)I'm glad to hear someone complaining about DREs, disk read errors, and this time pointing to Microsoft. It's a relief to know that Sony is not the only one screwing up with inferior product.

As for $92 repair cost, Mickeysoft already sold the Box to you at a $200 loss. This $92 is how they recover some lost dollars. ;)



Not to mention that in my opinion, the X-Box is easily the most technically impressive of the current generation of systems, yet costs about the same amount.
Agree 100%

Too bad the software choices are so limited. Outstanding hardware - almost no software worth playing = FLOP. (Like Jaguar, 7800, CDTV, Saturn, ...)

[LiquidX01]

Wow, after reading this Im not alone.

I wasnt aware that MS's faulty drives were as widespread as that, and damn I have had my XBox since day one. But I have noticed in the last 2 months that there is one game that occassionally gives me "disk read errors".

Could this be a sign of whats to come even though its only happens on this one game?

I dont care if it is, because I have heard some great things about them Samsung drives and that their an easy install.

[MarioAllStar2600]

if i had multiple xbocks die on me, i'd buy a replacement each time before i'd buy a ps2 or gc.

Do you always try to say the most controversial/least thought out post? LOL

[Azazel]

if i had multiple xbocks die on me, i'd buy a replacement each time before i'd buy a ps2 or gc.

If I had multiples of any system die on me I would just be done with system, sell the games and never want to touch one ever again in my life.

[omnedon]

I dont care if it is, because I have heard some great things about them Samsung drives and that their an easy install.

Way easier to install than to find. New Xboxes do not come with the Samsung. About 1 in 20 Xboxes come with the Samsung.

[fahrvergnugen]

How can you tell if your XBOX has a Samsung drive?

Open the drive door. If there's two holes through the tray to each side of the main drive motor hole, then it's a Samsung.

So as not to annihilate my bandwidth, here's some image links:

Thompson (http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/forumimages/xbox-thompson.jpg)
Phillips (http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/forumimages/xbox-phillips.jpg)
Samsung (http://www.fahrvergnugen.net/images/forumimages/xbox-samsung.jpg)


If you're desperate for one, you can buy it for too much money from this guy (http://secure.llamma.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=22&osC), who has been good to me in the past.

[dendawg]

Products wouldn't cost so much if huge customer service organizations weren't required to support self-reightous ass-clowns that don't read the fine print, who think the world owes them something for being ignorant.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/stfu7.jpg
:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:
He's not being ingnorant. He simply wants Microsoft to make a better product.
:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

[/img]

[omnedon]

The link I put on the first page had drive ID pics.

But why should posters actually read the thread?

[fahrvergnugen]

The link I put on the first page had drive ID pics.

But why should posters actually read the thread?

Huh? Sorry, can't click, too busy posting gimmicky flame gifs.

[Dreamscape]

The link I put on the first page had drive ID pics.

But why should posters actually read the thread?

Sorry about that, and btw the link was on the second page :D

Any way, I checked my XBOX, and I have a Philips drive. Are these good drives? I know Philips makes quality products.

[omnedon]

Philips are far better than the Thomsons, and some modders prefer them to samsungs due to great DVDr reading the Philips can do. Their weakness is stickers. Namely, stickers on rental discs. The internal transport will grab up all the stickum it can, and can start stacking discs internally, scratching the hell out of whatever is in there. In short, if it gets gummed up in there, it will eat a disc.

The owners manual says no stickers on discs for good reasons. LOL

[Ed Oscuro]

Despite all this bullshit, when Phantom-style (style...guess the Phantom could be on hi-ate-us right now) gaming becomes the norm, we'll all miss the days of discs, won't we?

LOL

[Dreamscape]

Philips are far better than the Thomsons, and some modders prefer them to samsungs due to great DVDr reading the Philips can do. Their weakness is stickers. Namely, stickers on rental discs. The internal transport will grab up all the stickum it can, and can start stacking discs internally, scratching the hell out of whatever is in there. In short, if it gets gummed up in there, it will eat a disc.

The owners manual says no stickers on discs for good reasons. LOL

What a relief. Thanks for the info guys, and I guess I was lucky to get an XBOX with a Philips drive. Also, I don't have to worry about the sticker thing because I don't rent games, and I don't put stickers on the games I own. :)

[SoulBlazer]

I was lucky enough to have a Samsung drive when I bought my used XBox a few months ago. :)

My concern is, and the reason I'm somewhat supportive of the original poster, is that a CD system should last longer then a year!

Everything is so cheaply made these days. I'd rather pay more money to have a product that works for 5-10 years and have a warrenty for that long then to buy a new one every year or two. I can't tell you how many microwaves, toasters, TV's, raidos, VCR's, etc. that I've gone through the last 20 years -- even with minor use!