So how do you define RPG? What's an RPG to YOU?

[Kamino]

Finally, at long last, I have discovered good RPGs...
or so I thought.
I brought this discussion to #Vbender last night a little bit, actually it's been a recurring topic there more than once.
Aside from the old Super mario rpg/Paper mario/Superstar saga line of mario rpgs, i'd never found an rpg i liked except shadowrun. However, I played baldur's gate: Dark alliance at the residence of a self-declared diehard shooter fan and FF hater(yes, theres one besides me.:P) and decided to give it a try. Along with Xbox Knights Of The Old Republic.
BD: DA seems VERY much an RPG to me. it has all the elements; medival setting, large number of weapons and angry ogres to fight, towns to visit, and the key element, leveling up. However, i was told by one diehard rpg collector that they do not consider it an rpg!
Which got me thinking. The only way I see Baldur's gate as "not an rpg" is the lack of a boring turn-based battle system in the vein of pokemon and super mario rpg.
Can RPG even be defined? I was once told by one person that an RPG is "a game where you take on the role of a character, interact with characters and control the storyline", but within five minutes i had managed to get them to admit that under that definition, vice city is an RPG, as you take on the role of Tommy Vercetti, interact with many characters such as Ricardo Diaz and Sonny Forelli, and control the storyline(some missions are completely avoidable, such as the side quests with umberto robina and the creepy old haitan lady.)
And yet another person said that Baldur's gate is not an rpg, yet, zelda games are rpgs..the only zelda game I consider to be an RPG is zelda 2 for NES, as it has the spells and leveling up.
Speak up, rpg fans! what does RPG mean to YOU?

[Mr. Smashy]

There are always RPGs that can "break the mold", so to speak. RPG is also a genre with several sub-genres. To me, I'd say that an RPG is a game that puts more emphasis on making decisions rather than taking action. It also needs to be primarily story-driven. Role-playing generally entails that you're taking on the role of one person but with the role-playing's inception into the computer world, it became pretty common to control an entire group of characters. A role-playing game generally includes character development, inventory management, attack damage and and resistance based on some statistics and a computerized and figurative roll of the dice.

I'd say that games like Zelda, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, and Secret of Mana are Action RPGs (kind of a hybrid genre).

[om3ga]

Well said Mr.Smashy.

And yeah you are kind right. Most people think that a RPG is when you take the role of a character but not only take the role but feel the outcome of decisions you make in the game and the way you act within the game. The main idea of a RPG is to place yourself within the shoes of your character and play the role. Probably the best example of a RPG videogame to date that I can think of is Ultima Online. Although I hate this game because it is to RPGish for me LOL

Rpgs of late have become more accessible. Final Fantasy and Zeldas are what sell. Real RPG's dont sell in huge numbers as these fake ones do. Baulders gate is a pretty good example too.

[Kamino]

on a side note, i'm definitely in search of action rpg's like Baldur's Gate: dark alliance.....gauntlet: Dark legacy is next up to bat, i think.

[Sylentwulf]

Action-RPG, American-RPG, same thing ;)

[Azazel]

there actually not the same as Japanese have made action/RPGs like Ys Xak, Sekien Densetsu etc.

[Crush Crawfish]

RPG's are really difficult to define. RPG stands for "Role-playing game" but when you play any game, aren't you playing a role? Like when you play Super Mario Bros, don't you play the role of Mario? Does that mean that any game is technically an RPG? O_O I just confused the hell out of myself, and probably all of you guys.

[-hellvin-]

Defenition: Navigating menus and selecting commands.

;)

[pookninja]

to me,for a game to be considered a rpg it: A.your characters that your playing as must be able to earn experence points to gain levels and change classes to become stronger in the game.B.the game must be heavly story driven,and have some sort of epic adventure that you must complete.C.the battles must be menu based!!(i think i might get some heat for that one).D.you must be able to buy different armor and weapons and equip them,and when you equip them,they must actually give you a advantage(or disadvantage depending on the item).not just make the characters"look different"E.there must be towns to go thru so you can gather information and equipment to futher you along to complete this epic quest your on.F.the game must have slimes and dragons in it(im only kidding about that :D )

[Graham Mitchell]

One thing I think people may be forgetting is the old "point-and-click" or Sierra/Lucasarts style of game. Those games marketed themselves as adventure games, and if you really get down to it, they're puzzle games. But the story (and often humor) was such a big part of their presentation that it was tough not to get wrapped up in the experience and feel like you are, forgive the predictability here, "playing a role".

Like others have said, I feel that there are different types of RPGs. Action-RPGs were once called "adventure games"...by Nintendo anyway. This was defined as an action game that wasn't level-based, where if you earned the ability to do so, all parts of the game were accessible to the player at any time.

Then there's the standard definition, what I like to call the "stats RPG", where you're building a character, buying equipment, and the core of the "game" (the actual part where winning and losing are taken into account) existed in turn-based combat. Ultima I (or Ultimatum) defines that genre.

[Daria]

Look I said I didn't consider Dark Alliance an RPG because it's an very obvious Gauntlet clone. Gauntlet has recently evolved (like many other series) to take on very RPG like aspects, but would have anyone considered Gauntlet for the NES an RPG? Based on a certain heritage of the series (and substiquently it's clones) I would still maintain a distinction between RPGs and Gauntlet like Arcade games. Let say you were to tack on experience to a Castlevania title, would you have to say it was an RPG?

Also, Baulder's Gate: Dark Alliance is (as much fun as it might be) a horrible mockery of it's PC counterparts. Which were full blood RPGs. I'd say the sheer contrast between the two styles of gameplay are so extreme that in light of the depth of gameplay the PC titles offered that DA seems extremely shallow. And it's hard to even classify them in the same genre.

That said, RPG is a very vague classification. Everyone seems to have their own definition and many games produced now adays span across multiple genres.

[calthaer]

Dark Alliance is not an RPG; it is a dungeon hack.

Real RPGs are ones that are multiplayer and which need to be played together and in-person.

But Computer / Console RPGs which parrot many real RPG conventions need to have at least:

-statistics
-experience points + levels
-some level of dialogue choices and / or plot, and usually an emphasis on this (otherwise it's just a hack)
-the acquisition of power in some tangible form as you progress, be it in the form of items, new moves, evolving (as in Pokemon), etc.
-an emphasis on strategy and good decision-making over twitch gaming

[Daria]

But Computer / Console RPGs which parrot many real RPG conventions need to have at least:

-statistics
-experience points + levels

I was playing Legend of the Ghost Lion last night, a Dragon Warrior clone for the NES that doesn't use a system of experience points, but in all other respects plays exactly like DW. So I'd have to say no. Experience points aren't a key feature of an RPG. ;)

I already addressed DA above, but I never really said what I thought defines a console/PC RPG to me. (which you've already mentioned are only imitations of the Pen and Paper variety.) The way I see it, RPGs aren't any one set of mechanics, but rather qualify based on different mixtures. You can take Dragon Warrior replace the turn based combat system with the push of a button and you're playing a game of Ys. Change the vantage point to side scrolling and you've got Popful Mail. But all other aspects of the game play stay constant, Guiding Quest, Town Roaming, Equipment, even Experience. But switch it around, exchange one feature for another and the difference is minute. It still feels like an RPG.

Hell there's even a Puyo Pop RPG that uses a puzzle match in exchange for a battle system.

But one thing that an RPG should have is a progressing storyline and dialouge. Otherwise yes:


-some level of dialogue choices and / or plot, and usually an emphasis on this (otherwise it's just a hack)

[-hellvin-]

Lol, that's crazy Graham, I dl/ed the scummvm engine today and was replaying monkey island I after such a long time and was thinking the exact same thing.

[thegreatescape]

/casts magic missile at Calthaer..

Ive always considered the Baldurs gate/Icewind games to be pretty good representations of a true by the books (modern) PC RPG; they have everything calthaer mentioned, and the whole confusing dice thing and 2d4 stuff (which i dont get but its never hindered me).

edit:sp

[Cryomancer]

Heavy emphasis on stats / exp helps.

But yeah, it's a hard term to get defined well. It's much easier to say what is not and RPG.

[calthaer]

/casts magic missile at Calthaer..

Ive always considered the Baldurs gate/Icewind games to be pretty good representations of a true by the books (modern) PC RPG; they have everything calthaer mentioned, and the whole confusing dice thing and 2d4 stuff (which i dont get but its never hindered me).

edit:sp

2d4 or 1d8 and all that junk essentially means "roll two four-sided dice" or "roll one eight-sided die." It yields certain types of numbers, i.e. 2d4 will yield a number between 2 and 8; one 8-sided will yield between 1 and 8. All of those types of numbers are present in games like Secret of Mana and all those other games that have variable damage...they are just hidden from you. Those guys have probably done an inordinate amount of research to see exactly how much damage certain weapons do compared to other ones and have codified that into the series of tables and dice that are present in all RPGs (even if the roll is hidden from you by the computer).

The problem with Baldur's Gate / Icewind Dale and all those other ones (and the reason I would say that it is not a real RPG) is the fact that they only allow a limited subset of actions. A computer RPG will probably not ever fully replace the PnP ones (although anything's possible). A true RPG is limited only by language - it is shared authorship of a story, with the gamemaster and the rulebooks playing the arbitrator.

You can do anything you want - absolutely anything. If you want to rush the goblins with swords, you can. If you want to cut down a tree first and roll it at them, you can. If you want to set the whole forest on fire just to be mean and get back at the druids that wouldn't give you their magic whatever, that's fine. You can interact in any way with any character you meet (not just with the three to five dialogue options that the computer gives you) - cajole them, bully them, seduce them, persuade them, dissuade them, anything.

You can transact any type of business you want and buy any piece of land you can get, or just kill the people and take it (if you can get away with it) - player housing is nothing revolutionary. You can even train your character to lead an army and then go out and do it, enacting the whole military campaign. You can have naval battles if you want. If you want to create a spell that curdles milk or turns someone's nose purple or if you even want to turn yourself into a lich through a magical ceremony, then you can have your magician research the spell and learn it. If you want a certain type of magical artifact but can't find it in the game, pay an alchemist to go and create it.

Of course you could also just get a group of dorks with limited imagination that want to play the tabletop RPG like a dungeon hack, and those aren't nearly as fun. But the potential is there, and at least right now that's the kind of potential that computer and console "rpgs" do not have.

and re: experience points - maybe a better way to say it would be "numerical / quantifiable rewards for actions performed in the game that are normally used to improve your avatar." It doesn't really matter if it's EXP or skill points or (as is the case in System Shock 2) cyber-modules or whatever name you want to slap on them.

[Aussie2B]

I know an RPG when I see it. Simple as that. I don't think it's really possible to form all these black and white "rules". I mean, if you make rules like "it's gotta have menu-based battles", "be low on twitch skills and high on thinking and strategy", etc. you'd eliminate a lot of games like Star Ocean and Tales and such, but if you LOOK at those games, it's absolutely apparent that they're RPGs. Also, if you make rules like "it's got to have a complicated story, lots of dialogue, tons of characters to interact with, etc." you rule out older RPGs like Dragon Warrior which barely have a plot and dungeon crawlers that focus on battling through dungeons.

So yeah, there's an exception to every rule. I personally DON'T consider games such as Zelda, Crystalis, Secret of Mana, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, etc. RPGs. Those all fall into the tried and true "adventure" category. I don't see why people feel the need to overcomplicate things by using modern buzz words like "action-RPG", which is an oxymoron in itself.

[Raedon]

RPG = any game where a character has stats that can be modified threw game play to make said avatar stronger (hopefully)

[Lemmy Kilmister]

RPG = any game where a character has stats that can be modified threw game play to make said avatar stronger (hopefully)

That and a menu and hours apond hours of dialogue. Well and cut scenes nowadays. :(

[musical]

IMHO an RPG is a game that uses stats & math & "rolling the dice" to determine battle outcomes AND allows the characters to grow stronger with each battle. To pick just a few popular examples:

- YES- Final Fantasy - turn-based
- YES - Kingdom Hearts - live-action
- NO - Legend of Zelda - puzzle game (battle outcomes are determined by the player's joystick skill, not stats AND no matter how many enemies you kill, you do not get stronger)
- NO - Mario Sunshine - (obviously not)
- NO - Adventure




The story is a nice bonus, but optional. Many early RPGs from the 70s/80s had no story except "explore the cave" or "beat the bad guy".

[Hakkenden]

I think as long as you have to talk to people to get to procced in the game and it has some sort of character growth its an RPG. I consider Zelda and Tomba! RPGs.

[calthaer]

The story is a nice bonus, but optional. Many early RPGs from the 70s/80s had no story except "explore the cave" or "beat the bad guy".

That's why those are not called RPGs but dungeon hacks, as is the case with the supreme overlord of all of those types of games -NetHack (http://www.nethack.org).

[musical]

The story is a nice bonus, but optional. Many early RPGs from the 70s/80s had no story except "explore the cave" or "beat the bad guy".That's why those are not called RPGs but dungeon hacks, as is the case with the supreme overlord of all of those types of games -NetHack (http://www.nethack.org).


The Advanced Dungeons & Dragons games had virtually no story. Are you saying those classic 80's RPGs are -not- an RPG??? If so, your thinking is flawed (imho).

[MarioAllStar2600]

Something very slow and boring. Not half as much as action as talking.
RPG = Really Pathetic Game

But I must say RPG's usually have cool characters. Like Zelda. Hes the man, even though I don't likemost of the games.

[musical]

RPG's usually have cool characters. Like Zelda. Hes the man. X_x Zelda's a woman. Not a man.

[Lady Jaye]

List updated, as per Aremid's suggestion:

Every one can define RPGs are narrowly or widely as they want; IMO, here are the RPG subsets:

Adventure RPG: Zelda, Wonderboy series
Action RPG: Kingdom Hearts, Tales of Symphonia
Hack n Slash (a subset of Action RPG): Diablo, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance
Turn-based: Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy, Phantasy Star
Real-time: Baldur's Gate, FF VII
Strategy: Ogre Battle, Final Fantasy Tactics
DnD-style: Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR
MMORPG: Phantasy Star Online, Ultima Online, Everquest
Text-based: Zork, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Of course, this is only my opinion. It is a difficult question to answer, if only because the boundaries can be sometimes very blurry. For example, most people would agree that WarCraft I and II and StarCraft aren't RPGs (they're RTS)... however, there are RPG elements in WarCraft III, which would make it closer to a tactical RPG than a tradition real-time strategy game. Or for instance, the differences between a real-time RPG and a hack n slash game can be rather subtle...

Oh, and don't include only experience points as a reference for an RPG... otherwise, it could be said that the entire Tony Hawk series is RPG!!!

And how about the DM module for Baldur's Gate? Doesn't it make it a more "real" RPG than the rest? How about MMORPGs? Are they more real RPGs because they're in real time with multiplayer interactions? Obviously, as we fine-tune the console and PC technologies, RPGs are becoming less and less linear (and closer to their PnP counterparts/ancestors), but a highly linear game like Dragon Warrior still is an RPG.

[aremid23]

Every one can define RPGs are narrowly or widely as they want; IMO, here are the RPG subsets:

Adventure RPG: Zelda, Wonderboy series
Hack n Slash (a subset of Adventure RPG): Diablo, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance
Turn-based: Dragon Warrior, Final Fantasy, Phantasy Star
Real-time: Baldur's Gate, FF VII
Strategy: Ogre Battle, Final Fantasy Tactics
DnD-style: Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, KOTOR
MMORPG: Phantasy Star Online, Ultima Online, Everquest
Text-based: Zork
Very nicely done! And might I add:

Action RPG: Kingdom Hearts, Tales of Symphonia (to name recent ones)

I include this category simply because these games use most of the "traditional" RPG elements only in real-time.

[Lady Jaye]

You're right, it should be Action RPG, not Adventure RPG... :)

[aremid23]

You're right, it should be Action RPG, not Adventure RPG... :)
Well, actually, I agree with the Adventure RPG category, too. I've always considered Zelda to be more of an adventure game anyway. The reason I think a separate Action RPG category is appropriate for KH or Tales is because of how the battles are handled. They are closely related to traditional RPG's only in real-time.

I'm rambling now, hehe.

[calthaer]

That's why those are not called RPGs but dungeon hacks, as is the case with the supreme overlord of all of those types of games -NetHack (http://www.nethack.org).

The Advanced Dungeons & Dragons games had virtually no story. Are you saying those classic 80's RPGs are -not- an RPG??? If so, your thinking is flawed (imho).

You are correct, I'm saying that they are dungeon hacks - plotless romps through manifold dungeons, all to the tune of "hack & slash." Those AD&D games you're speaking of bear very little resemblence to the paper & pencil game. Maybe you're forgetting that the very name "dungeon hack" is derived from one of the SSI Gold Box AD&D games of the same name?

[Raedon]

Like Zelda. Hes the man, even though I don't likemost of the games.

Good lord.. I'm going to bring in the SMACKDOWN here..


Zelda is the hot chicky..

LINK.. LINK.. one more time.. LINK!

[Raedon]

Zork is not an RPG.

[musical]

Well, actually, I agree with the Adventure RPG category, too. I've always considered Zelda to be more of an adventure game anyway. The reason I think a separate Action RPG category is appropriate for KH or Tales is because they are closely related to traditional RPG's only in real-time.

Drop the "RPG" from Zelda. Zelda is so far removed from RPG elements, that it's more akin to Montezuma or Berzerk or Raiders of the Lost Ark. Just pure exploration/adventure.




You are correct, I'm saying that they are dungeon hacks - plotless romps through manifold dungeons, all to the tune of "hack & slash." Those AD&D games you're speaking of bear very little resemblence to the paper & pencil game.

I haven't played pencil'n'paper D&D since the early 80's, so my memory is fuzzy, but I don't remember those RPGs having story either.

[Daria]

You are correct, I'm saying that they are dungeon hacks - plotless romps through manifold dungeons, all to the tune of "hack & slash." Those AD&D games you're speaking of bear very little resemblence to the paper & pencil game.

I haven't played pencil'n'paper D&D since the early 80's, so my memory is fuzzy, but I don't remember those RPGs having story either.

They should. Maybe your game master was just boring. :P

[Mitch_Naz]

Just a plain "Role Playing Game" for me.

[jdc]

To ME....I mainly consider an RPG to be turn-based, with a system that involves improving stats and levelling up. I think of realtime games to be more along the lines of dungeon-crawlers, which of course, can also involve level raising and stat advancement.

I consider the Zelda games to be "character-adventure games".

Many people that I know consider games like Resident Evil to be RPGs....because you are playing the role of a character, I suppose.

[Neonsolid]

Gone.