Microsoft reveals XBox Losses [Archive]

udisi

11-18-2002, 12:43 PM

I won't even bother to argue the greatness of some of the xbox's games, cause you people will just "say that game sucked" because it's on the xbox, but the thing is Microsoft does have SOOOO much money, that if they want the game market, they're eventually gonna get it.....I own all 3 systems and I like all of them....sadly I think nintendo is gonna die, and only the GBA will survive. Sony has the market right now, but microsoft is gonna keep buying companies(like Rare) and will slowly lure companies away from sony(That guy from capcom is already badmouthing sony), Xbox would proably pay some of the costs of making games for other companies if it comes to that....they don't care, they have the money and are commited to winning...it may take 10 years, but it's most likely going to happen cause they have the money....Nintendo is a toycompany and don't like to innovate, so they won't have the money and they'll end up like sega.....Sony is a huge electronics company and will fight for a while, but they're crappy machines will all break down and people will get pissed, and slowly just ship to a more superior machine. Microsofty can afford to lose more money than all the other companies, and that's why they'll win.....it's the same reason you don't see a T.V. made in america anymore... the japaneese were willing to sell them at a lose to get market share, and they ended up driving everyone out of buisness.....I used to hate Microsoft, and deep down I proably still do cause they ARE evil, but the thing is that so is Sony and Nintendo, they just aren't as blunt about it. so why not just except that Microsoft is gonna win and stop fighting it...the Xbox is a superior machine...there's no argument.....they have some good games.....Sony has more good games.....Gamecube has a few good games.....the fact is that whatever microsoft wants , they'll get

omnedon

11-18-2002, 01:00 PM

I'm going to buy an Xbox.

I need one to be able to test controllers I've repaired for game stores.

You're welcome Microsoft!

:twisted:

Do I get cookie for the dumbest reason to buy a game console? :grin:

strongmanx

11-18-2002, 01:17 PM

strongmanx

11-18-2002, 01:23 PM

I'm just playing around when i say that about X-box. Just imagine that guy from the Simpsons show, who owns the comic book store saying it. It cracks me up every time. But anway it just annoys me when people tell me how much better the x-box is because it has better graphics or is more powerful then the Game Cube or PS2. BIg deal the games are pretty boring and none are anything special. Most of the games are rip offs of big seller games on the PS2 or Game Cube. I mean is the atari jaguar better then the NES because it has better graphics? Hell no. I bought a jaguar because i need a good laugh here and then.

Achika

11-18-2002, 02:55 PM

IF Xbox does take over video games then prepare for another crash. Their games might be pretty but they are BORING! I don't care if it has the greatest and most realistic graphics ever. If it isn't fun to play then why play it?

I would never blame a system for a crash. If anything you need to start blaming the software companies. Sony's low "quality" standard lets any and all company's games out onto the market, that's why you get $10 value-soft games. But, companies like EA put all their football/hockey/etc. on every system. When the same game comes out for every system, that's when you've got a problem. I've got all three, but do I really need Madden 2003 for all three systems? No, I don't even need one.

But out of all three, Nintendo is the system for me right now. Animal Crossing, PSO, Zelda next year....But then again, DoA Volleyball and Steel Battilion are coming out soon....and nothing is cuter than a little girl sitting behind a 40 button controller. LOL As for Sony, well I've some of the newest games, but nothing is making me go plug in the PS2 right now.

I wonder though, how much time have you actually spent playing any XBox games? Because you haven't said anything yet to back up your points.

strongmanx

11-18-2002, 03:08 PM

I've played quite a few at my friends place actually. Halo, Superman Man of steel, toe jam and earl, max payne, and dead to rights. He said he hasn't even turned the machine a few weeks.

Captain Wrong

11-18-2002, 03:47 PM

I would never blame a system for a crash. If anything you need to start blaming the software companies. Sony's low "quality" standard lets any and all company's games out onto the market, that's why you get $10 value-soft games. But, companies like EA put all their football/hockey/etc. on every system. When the same game comes out for every system, that's when you've got a problem. I've got all three, but do I really need Madden 2003 for all three systems? No, I don't even need one.

Word! I've said it before, and I'll say it again. IF (big IF) there is going to be another crash it's going to be due to low quality softs and port mania, not hardware. That's what caused the first one.

udisi

11-18-2002, 03:53 PM

I'll have to agree there, not to mention dare I say sega NFL 2k3 was better than Madden this year....I've loved EA for years, but to me SEGA is getting on the ball and making some pretty damn good sports games....NBA 2k3, NFL 2k3, and for those who don't have an xbox, I thought WS Baseball was the best Baseball game I've played in quite sometime. EA still has an edge in the NHL area, but the PC version has dissapointed me for the last couple of years.

I'll give you xbox haters this...NFL Fever sucks....Microsoft does need to learn how to make a sports game......The High Heat series has also sucked on consoles.

Anonymous

11-18-2002, 04:05 PM

Just wanted to add my four cents. First of all, Strongmanx, It's fair to say that all of the Xbox's power and capabililties do not immediately mean that it's games are good, but to imply that some amorphous intangible entity like "XBOX" or even "MICROSOFT" makes every game for the system, and that that is the reason they are bad is just folly. The same companies that make games for the Playstation make games for the Xbox and the Gamecube. Xbox does not make Jet Set Radio, Sega does. Xbox does not tell capcom to release a 40 button controller, Capcom makes that decision. Which brings me to my second point:

nothing is cuter than a little girl sitting behind a 40 button controller. LOL

Please post a picture when you do get Steel Battallion Achika!

kainemaxwell

11-18-2002, 08:32 PM

You gotta admit though that MS has balls for purchasing Rare from Nintendo, and putting out a game and huge controller for Steel Battalion.

theaveng

11-18-2002, 08:40 PM

I saw that too. Then I saw that Microsoft made 2.7 BILLION DOLLARS in the last THREE MONTHS and I said "fuck em". That's like me wiping my ass with a $10.00 bill.

Actually, its not the same at all... 2.7 Billion is only 15 times more than 177 million... just think about your profits from the last 3 months divided by 15... would you wipe with that?

Let's see... $30,000/15 = $2000 every 3 months. I'd be throwing away $8000 a year! Nuts! Only Bill gates would think this makes financial sense. :o

As for this notion that Microsoft can become dominant in Games by simply spending lots of money... it didn't work for TV set-top boxes did it? It takes more than that to succeed.

And yes, $300 for XP is nuts. Just think, everytime you pick up Windows or Office or any other Microsoft product you are not just supporting that product, but also X-box, WebTV, and other failing ideas.

Troy

Kid Fenris

11-18-2002, 10:11 PM

....and nothing is cuter than a little girl sitting behind a 40 button controller. LOL

I didn't know that you had a daughter, Achi. ;)

And just to add my two cents to the Xbox angle, I'd like to mention Panzer Dragoon Orta. It may not have a good deal of mainstream attraction, but I bet it'll sell a number of Xboxes among the devoted game freaks, myself included, when it hits next year. I can resist Gunvalkyrie and House of the Dead III and a Jet Set Radio Future/Sega GT pack-in, but I can't resist another Panzer Dragoon. Finances be damned.

udisi

11-19-2002, 12:51 AM

no it didn't work for set top boxes, but then again ...This is Microsoft...The richest bastards on the planet....they, can and will wipe their ass with $2000, they have we're #1 pride, ....amazon.com lost money for how many years before they turned a profit.....many buisnesses use this practice...it's just a matter of how many investors they have. Microsoft can keep this up a lot longer than you think. It's just a matter of commitment.

kobunheatforum

11-19-2002, 08:32 AM

Sony's low "quality" standard lets any and all company's games out onto the market, that's why you get $10 value-soft games.

Not really. Talk to Vic Ireland about the hoops they had to jump through to get Mystical Ninja approved, or better yet ask Jayson Hill what he thinks of Sony's refusal to approve an Atari arcade collection.

IF (big IF) there is going to be another crash it's going to be due to low quality softs and port mania, not hardware. That's what caused the first one.

Oh, there will definitely be another crash, and just like the last two it will come at a time when lots of money is being invested in the money pit of hardware, backed up by low quality software. In 1994 it was 3DO, Philips, Atari, and to some extent Sega urinating in the pool, leaving a big mess for everyone to clean up. As Microsoft continues to 'succeed' (read: lose lots of cash but look great doing it), we'll see more big companies toss their hats in the ring with grand schemes and dubious software lineups.

When you see that start to happen, get ready for another round of bargain-bin collecting fun.

Achika

11-19-2002, 12:58 PM

In 2000 games like Spec Ops, Spin Jam, and Dark Stone came out for $10. Sony didn't care what was on those discs, what kind of crap got released (ok...they weren't all crap...but there were some doozies). The reason? As long as those companies released them for $10, developers could do virtually whatever they wanted. The result? Hundreds of parents bought them for Christmas that year. What happened in January? Hundreds of teens and kids brought them back as trade ins.

What Atari pack are you talking about? I'm not really sure if these qualify: Atari Anniversary Pack 1 and Arcades Greatest Hits: Atari Collection.

Kid Fenris

11-19-2002, 01:09 PM

Didn't Sony also nix the American release of any Capcom Generations collections, specifically those featuring the Ghosts n' Goblins games and the 194X series? And didn't Capcom also have to twist a few arms to get Mega Man 8 approved for the U.S. PlayStation?

If so, SCEA seems to be really selective in picking their approval battles.

Anonymous

11-19-2002, 01:26 PM

I've had this feeling for awhile. I think Sony is trying to ditch anything that has to do with videogaming in years past. From a business perspective, it makes sense, since the market has been growing ever since 3D and realism became big factors in video games.

Nintendo did the same thing with it's NES, by "hiding" the cartridge inside the system and calling it an Entertainment System instead of a Video Game System. Both are concious decisions to forget the past, and look at growing market trends. Sony wants the parents and the cool kids to play video games, and the parents and cool kids aren't going to play mega man.

As far as Sony's concerned, a tip o' the hat to die hard gamers could push away larger markets with deeper pockets. Interestingly, the last time we saw a push away from traditional games and towards realism and different markets was the same period Kobun mentioned.

Sylentwulf

11-19-2002, 02:00 PM

I just scanned through most of the replies since my last post, but I have to say...To all those who say "Microsoft has enough money to do what they want"

What the hell do you Think Sony is? POOR? NOONE on this board seems to realize how much Sony is worth. They have a HUGE HUGE base in electronics and computers. I would NOT be surprised if they have as much (or close to it at least) Economical power as Microsoft does.

AND they have a strongly established relationship with some game companies (Enix, Square) that will guarantee them to STAY on top in Japan, which, as we all know is the ONLY thing that matters (If you think what Americans or Europeans want matters at ALL, you have another thing coming.)

Yes, Xbox has some nice games, and unbelievable graphics. So did the Neogeo and Neogeo pocket.

Nature Boy

11-19-2002, 02:08 PM

It's too bad the article doesn't actually say what the Xbox specific losses are. They jumble it in with their software and whatnot, which still lost $68 million the previous year.

I totally agree with the "Bad Software" argument of another potential crash. However I have to admit I never thought of porting one game onto multiple platforms being the cause for that. And I'm not sure I see it. Doesn't that describe PC gaming to a certain extent?

I see the $10 PS stuff differently too. It was released very late in the product's life cycle and was, I'm sure, a response to the newer consoles (competing based on a lower price with lower quality isn't a new marketing ploy after all). Unless they started releasing cheaply made stuff from the get go I don't see it causing any problems. And to be honest I think the lesson has been learned and the results of releasing a good game are massive enough...

As for the Xbox sucks comments: Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but in an argument it's a ridiculous claim to make. I own more than just Halo for my Xbox, I like all of my games just find thank you, and they get as much playing time as my Gamecube and PS2 games. And much like you're not alone in your opinion, I'm not alone in mine.

YoshiM

11-19-2002, 03:26 PM

Oh, there will definitely be another crash, and just like the last two it will come at a time when lots of money is being invested in the money pit of hardware, backed up by low quality software. In 1994 it was 3DO, Philips, Atari, and to some extent Sega urinating in the pool, leaving a big mess for everyone to clean up.

Another crash? I didn't see it that way, if anything I could see that example as more of a "shakeout" than an actual "crash". The 3DO had promise, with good software backing but high hardware prices. The CD-I just confused people (is it a game system? Is it a multimedia system? Is it for learning? Is it for watching movies?) and was pretty much dubbed a high-end game system by the masses (though it was used by the commercial market for presentations and training, most notably Sears in the Brand Central department) and quickly forgotten. Atari Jaguar wasn't anything special. The magic of Atari was gone and the Tramiel curse was still strong. Sega was trying to evolve into the 32 Bit scene but they stretched the upgrade scheme too much with the Genesis.

What happened? 3DO tried to go beyond with the M2 technology but nothing happened with that. Couldn't compete with the Playstation. Philips released a more "game machine like" CD-I (to further confuse the masses) with more games and a reduced price but nothing grabbed anyone, so it fizzled. The Jaguar was just doomed, even when the CD Unit was released. Sega moved on with the Saturn and Sony entered the market with the Playstation. 3 dropped off like dried scabs, 1 entered the fray, and the industry moved on.

theaveng

11-20-2002, 09:37 AM

AND they have a strongly established relationship with some game companies (Enix, Square) that will guarantee them to STAY on top in Japan, which, as we all know is the ONLY thing that matters (If you think what Americans or Europeans want matters at ALL, you have another thing coming.)

Isn't America the biggest market (most dollars earned) for games?

And, a true crash would knock out even the big names like Nintendo and Sony. That's what happened in 1984... everyone suffered even gaming giant Atari. Back in 1994, Nintendo and Sega were still going strong.

Jaguar: I don't know why everyone hates this console so much. Looking at the screenshots, it looks really good to me: 640x400 hi-res and highly-advanced 3D graphics. You didn't see that on the then-giant Super Nintendo. Jaguar was 3D. SNES was still stuck in 2D land.

Troy

YoshiM

11-20-2002, 01:03 PM

@theaveng: have you played some of the games for this system? The Jag didn't have the software support and Atari dropped the ball with the games that were promised and never released. Out of the titles, a handful of games were actually any good. As for polygon pushing power, games like Iron Soldier were good but then you got drek like Club Drive that made Hard Drivin' for the Genesis (released a year or two earlier) look good. It seemed for every one good title there were 5 that sucked and when a console doesn't have a strong lineup to begin with that's not good.

Sylentwulf

11-20-2002, 02:42 PM

Isn't America the biggest market (most dollars earned) for games?
Troy

I'd love to see some numbers on this. Japan sells a lot more consumer electronics from what I understand, even with a lot less people. I know percentage-wise we're like a decade behind on EVERYTHING.

Sothy

11-20-2002, 05:03 PM

strongmanx is an asshole.

This 9 year old kid console war shit is getting old.

kainemaxwell

11-20-2002, 06:08 PM

Question is also, if there was another crash who would survive it to be able to revive the market and how would it be done- if possible?

kevincure

11-20-2002, 08:25 PM

As far as consoles sold, Japan is far far behind the US and Europe. I think Sony did like 200,000 last month in Japan (you can go to magic-box.com for figures by week) vs. 500,000+ in the US and similar in Europe. As for game sales, GTA3:VC in America did more in a week in the US than *any* game for any system has done in Japan all year.

What's different is that Japan is
a) less that 1/2 the population, so a slightly higher concentration of gamers
b) videogames have long been big in Japan, and are very "mainstream", with CD's of video game music and all that.
c) over half the big console developers are Japan-based. THQ and EA are of course in America and Europe, as are Activision, Acclaim, Microsoft and Take Two. But look at Japan: Konami, Sega, Sony, Nintendo, Capcom, Square, Sammy among others. Japanese tastes will dictate videogames, whether or not they're the biggest market.

congobongo

11-20-2002, 09:11 PM

strongmanx is an asshole.

This 9 year old kid console war shit is getting old.

I couldn't agree more.

Achika

11-20-2002, 10:39 PM

strongmanx is an asshole.

This 9 year old kid console war shit is getting old.

No, all I hear from 9 year olds that come into Funcoland is "DOOD--LOOKING AT THE GRAFX. XBOX IS THE BEST SYSTEM EVER!"

NESCollector75

11-20-2002, 10:51 PM

I enjoy the X-box quite a bit. I do love halo, but I also really like sports games. Since all I really play is sports games, which can be bought on any of the 3 systems, it only makes sense to go with the money with the best graphics! I think it just depends on what kinds of games you like for the system!

kobunheatforum

11-21-2002, 01:05 AM

Okay, let me try to sum up:

In 2000 games like Spec Ops, Spin Jam, and Dark Stone came out for $10. Sony didn't care what was on those discs, what kind of crap got released (ok...they weren't all crap...but there were some doozies).

For the PSone, yes, Sony has relaxed their policy quite a bit. But they're being nearly as tight-assed about the PS2 these days as they were about the PSone back in the day. Case in point: it took Working Designs how many YEARS to get Sony to let them do Arc The Lad?

What Atari pack are you talking about? I'm not really sure if these qualify: Atari Anniversary Pack 1 and Arcades Greatest Hits: Atari Collection.

PSone, not PS2. See above.

What the hell do you Think Sony is? POOR? NOONE on this board seems to realize how much Sony is worth.

For that matter, Nintendo is pretty damned rich too. So saying that Microsoft alone has the power to flush money down the toilet isn't entirely accurate.

I totally agree with the "Bad Software" argument of another potential crash.

Bad software and too much of it causes the companies who make nothing but crap to go out of business or be radically restructured, as happened in both of the past 'crashes' or 'shakeouts' if you prefer. (I'm a 'shakeout' man for reasons that will be explained below.')

But, I'll quote from Phoenix: "Ironically, despite the slump, seven million game consoles and 75 million game cartridges - 15 million more than in 1982 - had been sold in 1983. Of that number, only 27% had been close-out titles...the remaining 73% consisted of popular titles that retailed between $30 and $40."

Let us not forget that for all the crap, some of the very best titles on the classic systems were released during the 'crash.'

Atari stayed in the video game business and readied the 7800 for release in 1984 - the only reason why they waited until 1986 to do so, it is generally agreed upon, is that Jack Tramiel killed the video game division when he bought the company for reasons of his own (to make Atari into an upscale PC company and attack Commodore).

People didn't stop liking video games in 1984, and they didn't in 1994 either. But in both years, a lot of people lost a lot of money and many went out of business. The difference was that in 1994, the games industry was so much larger that it could absorb the shock and move on without anybody sounding the death knell again.

Another crash? I didn't see it that way, if anything I could see that example as more of a "shakeout" than an actual "crash".

Semantics. You say potato, I say potahto. You say shakeout, I say crash. There's no clear definition between the two, no point arguing it. The point is, I think that Microsoft entering the video game business - and doing pretty well at it - is going to be seen as the 'turning point' once another crash, shakeout, slump, whatever takes place, because they'll have influenced other companies to jump into the fray without a clear idea of where they're going.

Question is also, if there was another crash who would survive it to be able to revive the market and how would it be done- if possible?

Not an issue - see above. If there was another crash, Nintendo would not lose a dime and I really don't think Sony would have problems either. Atari survived the 'crash' too and were ready to keep going.

AND they have a strongly established relationship with some game companies (Enix, Square) that will guarantee them to STAY on top in Japan, which, as we all know is the ONLY thing that matters (If you think what Americans or Europeans want matters at ALL, you have another thing coming.)

Pin-pon, as we say here in Japan: "Bingo." I will admit that some companies, like Konami and Nintendo, have been adopting a more worldwide view towards software development. Miyamoto worked with British developers on Pikmin, not to mention Eternal Darkness (Canada), Metroid Prime (USA), Star Fox Adventures (Britain). Nintendo works with their American branch to translate games before they even hit in Japan (betcha Zelda's done by now), which is more than you can say for Squaresoft.

Konami, too: look at the comments Kojima made about wanting to support his American fanbase so he releases MGS2 in the US first. Of course, you can say that he just did that to reap massive Christmas sales with an unfinished version of the game.

And so maybe that points to the real situation: Can we agree that Japanese developers produce the very best games in great quantity? (Xbox fanboys need not respond, I have already completely discounted all of your opinions.) Okay then. Japanese developers make the best games. They make these games for Japan. Ergo, what systems Japan is buying and playing is what is of the utmost importance to them.

In other words, in this post-Nintendo age, success in Japan is a prerequisite to success in the rest of the world. The Genesis put up a huge fight in the US even with absolute MINIMAL support in Japan, but the games just weren't there in the last few years and, yes, the SNES *did* eclipse the Genesis in total hardware sales. The SNES won because it was far and away the system to own in Japan.

Jaguar: I don't know why everyone hates this console so much. Looking at the screenshots, it looks really good to me: 640x400 hi-res and highly-advanced 3D graphics.

Somebody already got you on this, but: it's the games, stupid!

For a modern example of great hardware with mostly poor games, see that system that computer OS company brought out last year. The X-something.

And just for the record, I actually own two Xboxes, American and Japanese. I played the living hell out of JSRF and I will be glued to the 'box following the release of Panzer Dragoon Saga. But apart from those, there is NOTHING I want to play on this, past, present, or near future.

As much as I poke fun at myself for being a 'Nintendo fanboy', I'm really not. I love video games, I buy every video game system, I buy all the games that interest me. I own one Xbox game.

theaveng

11-21-2002, 06:44 AM

It seemed for every one good title there were 5 that sucked and when a console doesn't have a strong lineup to begin with that's not good.

We were discussing Jaguar not Nintendo64. ;-) LOL

Troy (ducking and running)

theaveng

11-21-2002, 06:54 AM

As far as consoles sold, Japan is far far behind the US and Europe. I think Sony did like 200,000 last month in Japan (you can go to magic-box.com for figures by week) vs. 500,000+ in the US and similar in Europe.

Thank you. There are too many people on this site who offer opinions without *facts* to back them up. I KNEW it didn't make sense that Japan was the biggest market when they have the smallest population. (BTW, you magic-box.com reference doesn't work. Can we have the actual address?)

So in reply to this: "AND they have a strongly established relationship with some game companies (Enix, Square) that will guarantee them to STAY on top in Japan, which, as we all know is the ONLY thing that matters (If you think what Americans or Europeans want matters at ALL, you have another thing coming.)"

You're wrong. Numbers matter and America/Europe has the most numbers and therefore the greatest influence over the future directions of games.

Troy

NvrMore

11-21-2002, 07:47 AM

Regarding Market size the figures for 2002 run at

* US/Canada �5.6bn
* Western Europe �4.2bn
* Japan �2.8bn

(Source: ELSPA)

with Western europe expected to be the worlds biggest market for computer game software by 2004.

You're wrong. Numbers matter and America/Europe has the most numbers and therefore the greatest influence over the future directions of games.

Wrong. Japan is known to be the most influencial games market in the industry, mainly because (as has been mentioned numerous times in this thread) the most successful and influencial games developers are Japanese. Said companies base their games upon the popularity of games within the Japanese games market and the current gaming trends there, that is why the japanese games market is the most highly regarded by all of the major console companies (Sony, Nintendo and MS). Unless a console can gain a strong footing in the Japanese market it is pretty much doomed because without a strong consumer base in Japan, developers are unwilling to develop for that console, because their games will not be reaching their base audience.. the Japanese.

theaveng

11-21-2002, 07:56 AM

Actually, its not the same at all... 2.7 Billion is only 15 times more than 177 million!

If Microsoft wanted X-box to be #1, they'd stop losiing dollars on marketing and start losing dollars on the prcietag. If they dropped the X-box to * $50 * they'd sell X-boxes like hotcakes! As people keep saying, Microsoft can afford to lose money... they just need to jack up the price on Windoze XP. Lowing the price to $50 would put X-box at or near the #1 console slot.

Troy

theaveng

11-21-2002, 07:59 AM

Wrong. Japan is known to be the most influencial games market in the industry... Said companies base their games upon the popularity of games within the Japanese games market and the current gaming trends there.

Okay. So how do you explain the success of games like Madden Football or NASCAR Thunder which are clearly America-only games? According to your statement, these games shouldn't exist.

NvrMore

11-21-2002, 08:07 AM

Prey tell.. who made those two games? were thEy JApanese? :roll:

Ascending Wordsmith

11-21-2002, 08:18 AM

So how do you explain the success of games like Madden Football or NASCAR Thunder which are clearly America-only games?

That's more along the lines of cultural differences. NASCAR races and the NFL season is mostly limited to an American audience. I seriously doubt that a Japanese gamer knows anything about American football (other than the 2 or 3 preseason games played in Yokohama very year). If you look at Japanese systems in the past, you'll see that there were hardly any sports games. This is especially true of the PC Engine and the Super Famicom.

Just curious; has anyone ever seen an NHL, NBA, NASCAR, or NFL import title?

YoshiM

11-21-2002, 08:39 AM

Actually, NvrMore, they were NOT, well not in essence anyway. EA was started in America and is a now a world wide corporation. I'm sure they have Japanese developers on those projects but to insinuate that EA is along the same lines as Konami is just wrong.

For the majority of console game development, the developers are Japanese. Even though America is a bigger audience, they focus on their people first. It's just how they are. They also seem to think we have different tastes when it comes to games, hence why some games don't make the trip overseas (heck, we didn't get a true Mario sequel with SMB 2 as the original was thought to be "too hard for American gamers").

As for XBox becoming #1, dropping the price super low isn't going to mean beans if the software ain't there. As with all game companies (and this was discussed before ad nauseum) they EXPECT to lose money initially and then recoup it in software sales. Bumping up the price on Windows is NOT going to change matters, in fact it may hurt it (you'd have to increase price for OEMs, shelf, student, etc.) as MS is already getting flak for its nasty new licensing plan. Besides, XBox development and the OS side of Microsoft are probably on two different account books as separate businesses so changing one is not going to affect the other (accounting wise, Bill just gets richer). For XBox to be more of a contender, they have to get those other popular Japanese companies under their belts (Square, to name one) because people will follow titles to whatever platform they are on.

theaveng

11-21-2002, 08:42 AM

My point: NUMBERS matter more. The U.S. and Europe have the numbers (and $$$$$$).

Dropping X-box to $50 would push the hardware to #1, and then the software developers would target XBX instead of PS2.

strongmanx is an asshole.

You shouldn't be calling people assholes. It's not nice.

Nature Boy

11-21-2002, 08:44 AM

Just curious; has anyone ever seen an NHL, NBA, NASCAR, or NFL import title?

A better question would be "have you seen a Japanese Baseball League import?" Because, outside NA, nobody cares about our leagues, let alone games based on our leagues. Relatively speaking of course. And nor should they care.

If I'm not mistaken baseball and soccer games do fairly well over in Japan. Kobun?

And why compare sales of sports games anyway? It's been well proven that genres that sell well in one market (be it Japan, Europe, or North America) don't necessarily translate into big sales in another market. How many dating sims do we see in NA?

I will admit I'm puzzled as to why Microsoft can't content itself with being a big player in the North American market only if Europe and Japan aren't buying into it.

Ascending Wordsmith

11-21-2002, 09:20 AM

It's been well proven that genres that sell well in one market (be it Japan, Europe, or North America) don't necessarily translate into big sales in another market

My point exactly. That's why EA has the franchise sports category locked down on all systems. Sega has already announced that it can hardly fan out into a multi-genre software company. The result; Sega has pulled the plug from doing sports titles for the Gamecube. It's only a matter of time before Sega drops the sport genre altogether. From a Japanese perspective, Sony and Nintendo pretty much let EA do all the "American" cultured games (sports). And why not? American sports franchises done by an American based company should gain profits in an American market. It's all about the profit.

ROBOTRON

11-21-2002, 09:24 AM

All I can say is:

I bought the sh*t, and then sold it a few months later. :hmm:

kobunheatforum

11-21-2002, 09:30 AM

Baseball and soccer are quite popular here, and so baseball and soccer games do pretty well. Other sports games generally don't, though. Virtua Tennis (Power Smash) did great here in the arcades and they're readying the sequel for PS2 release. But, these games don't come anywhere near RPGs, fighters, and Mario.

Sports games are the exception that proves the rule. If numbers were the most important thing, Japan would quit making big-headed anime-style baseball simulators and sumo titles and start making American football. But they don't. So there's something else at work.

As I said: there's been more and more recognition all along that the American and European markets are important. But at this crucial stage, it is simply a fact that Japanese development is the most important and that these games are going to be tailored, for the most part, to a Japanese audience.

That means the Xbox gets a lot fewer games.

Dropping the 'box to fifty bucks would be a phenomenally dumb move. Why? Because it messes with the perceived value of the item in the mind of the consumer. If the system is fifty, the games need to be less than that or it really just doesn't make any sense.

I'm not an economist so I can't explain exactly why you can't do this. But, you can't. If you price something that much lower than it's worth, you are establishing it as inferior in the minds of consumers.

Of course, the fact that the software still isn't there means they won't make the money back, anyway. Thanks YoshiM.

(Tangent: Killing Super Mario 2 in the US and going with Doki Doki Panic instead was one of the best ideas Nintendo ever had. I want to go into this more in my book, but there are all sorts of great reasons why they did this. Difficulty was just one reason.)

Indulge me in some far-out predictions. I'll put my ass right on the line with these, if they don't happen in two weeks then you can call me on it and I'll suck it up.

One: In America, Sony drops the PS2 to $149 just in time for the Christmas shopping season. Nintendo immediately follows suit and the Gamecube drops to $129. Microsoft is caught with its proverbial pants down and must also drop to $149 - or $129 if they're feeling gutsy this Christmas.

Two: In Japan, Nintendo and Enix announce that the next Dragon Quest game will be Gamecube-exclusive, thus guaranteeing a huge sales explosion for Nintendo in Japan and even more support from those crucial Japanese developers.

Just my thoughts based on what's happening right now.

jaybird

11-21-2002, 10:01 AM

I think Sony did like 200,000 last month in Japan (you can go to magic-box.com for figures by week) vs. 500,000+ in the US and similar in Europe.

What's the direct link to magic-box.com? I got some site about an video editing company or something.

I've been looking for a good site that has console sale figures.

NvrMore

11-21-2002, 10:12 AM

Actually, NvrMore, they were NOT, well not in essence anyway. EA was started in America and is a now a world wide corporation. I'm sure they have Japanese developers on those projects but to insinuate that EA is along the same lines as Konami is just wrong.

LOL

erm.. YoshiM that was the point I was making, that being that theaveng's attempt to side-step the point that Japanese developers are influenced by the japanese market was entirely flawed in that he posted games made by a non-Japanese company.. there was no insinuation I was trying to make it as simple as possible in order for theaveng to understand it.

otherwise kobunheatforum again makes the point beutifully.

jaybird

11-21-2002, 10:36 AM

Indulge me in some far-out predictions. I'll put my ass right on the line with these, if they don't happen in two weeks then you can call me on it and I'll suck it up.

One: In America, Sony drops the PS2 to $149 just in time for the Christmas shopping season. Nintendo immediately follows suit and the Gamecube drops to $129. Microsoft is caught with its proverbial pants down and must also drop to $149 - or $129 if they're feeling gutsy this Christmas.

If anyone's pants are down, it's not Microsoft's. They've already lowered the price of their system with the pack they're selling right now: XBox & 2 games for $199.

I see a little Sony & Nintendo wee-wee showing myself.

kobunheatforum

11-21-2002, 11:08 AM

$199 plus two games equals $199. Considering that we're talking about two games that weren't going to sell very many more copies anyway, it's moot. There's a reason they packed in two games instead of reducing the price by fifty or a hundred bucks: those two games aren't worth fifty or a hundred bucks to anybody.

Look at Nintendo: $20 off the price of Metroid Fusion with purchase of a Gamecube. That's a GCN system and a *brand new, extremely hot* game for $179.99. That beats the living PANTS off of Bill's deal.

MS has fired the first shot, but it's a dud. What's going to happen when Sony drops to $149? Because they will. They're like that. Then the Xbox bundle will look even worse.

YoshiM

11-21-2002, 11:31 AM

Sorry, Nvr, I read your post and read it for face value and really didn't read *into* it. My bad.

@Kobun (back on slight tangent): I agree on the SMB2 thing. I loved SMB2 for America and it showed a marked improvement/change (in game control and graphics) rather than looking like a rehash of SMB 1 with more difficulty. And you're writing a book? Good luck on that!

Achika

11-21-2002, 11:39 AM

I'd like to interject my final point about the sports games: Nascar, NFL might not get much play overseas, but think of all the sports games everyother country gets that we don't.

But, Rugby is huge from what I understand in Europe. They come out every year, like the US gets their Maddens. Nature Boy hit the point suficiently with the Japanese Baseball question. Baseball became huge in Japanese culture, and it's reflected in the games.

http://juegomania.metropoliglobal.com/emuladores/megadrive/internationalrugby.jpg

http://www.varsity.co.nz/admin/images/pack_shot_resized.jpg

Oh, Kobun: I did mean the PS One, not PS2. I look at those two packs unsold every time I go to work.

Nature Boy

11-21-2002, 12:10 PM

As I said: there's been more and more recognition all along that the American and European markets are important. But at this crucial stage, it is simply a fact that Japanese development is the most important and that these games are going to be tailored, for the most part, to a Japanese audience.

I'm starting to come around to your way of thinking...

I asked myself, "what if MS decided to keep Xbox soley in North America," since earlier I was wondering why they didn't give up in Japan if they were getting killed there and the numbers favoured North American anyway.

Would any of us own an Xbox knowing that, most likely, none of the Japanese developers we love so much would be creating games for it? I'm willing to bet that, for the majority of those who only purchase one console, Xbox wouldn't even be considered. I know I wouldn't consider it.

]I'm not an economist so I can't explain exactly why you can't do this. But, you can't. If you price something that much lower than it's worth, you are establishing it as inferior in the minds of consumers.

I was going to say this earlier but couldn't phrase it right so I gave up. This is dead on. It's from first year economics classes. Perceived value is everything.

Anonymous

11-21-2002, 02:40 PM

@Theaveng - Saying that Numbers matter more than Japanese support is a losing battle. Open any video gaming magazine issue that was published right before the 3DO, Jaguar, and yes, XBOX release, and you'll see the same thing over and over. "Can this machine survive without the crucial Japanese Market?" That may not be the way you want it to be, but saying so doesn't make it true.

Kid Fenris

11-21-2002, 04:27 PM

The point is, I think that Microsoft entering the video game business - and doing pretty well at it - is going to be seen as the 'turning point' once another crash, shakeout, slump, whatever takes place, because they'll have influenced other companies to jump into the fray without a clear idea of where they're going.

Frankly, I don't understand why this would happen if Microsoft's difficulties with the Xbox are so frequent and public. If anything, they'll serve as a warning to other companies considering such a plunge. Fledgling software developers won't be led into ruin by the Xbox, as they'll be more likely to avoid the system due to its lack of immediate success.

Okay then. Japanese developers make the best games.

Scores of PC gamers would violently disagree with your statement, but since we're talking primarily about consoles here, I'll say no more.

In other words, in this post-Nintendo age, success in Japan is a prerequisite to success in the rest of the world. The Genesis put up a huge fight in the US even with absolute MINIMAL support in Japan, but the games just weren't there in the last few years and, yes, the SNES *did* eclipse the Genesis in total hardware sales. The SNES won because it was far and away the system to own in Japan.

I'm not entirely sure if I buy this theory, due to counter examples like the Nintendo64. Compared to the dominance shown by the SFC, the N64's share of the Japanese console scene was pathetic, and yet it managed to survive thanks to sales in the U.S.

Moreover, it's important to note that success in Japan doesn't automatically grant equal profits in other markets. The Saturn and the PC-Engine enjoyed decent-to-rampant popularity in Japan. Internationally, however both systems wound up last in their respective console wars simply because they didn't have enough to offer American or European gamers. Japanese developers may make the best games, but they don't always make what other nations want to play.

Though Japanese support is important, it's not everything.

For a modern example of great hardware with mostly poor games, see that system that computer OS company brought out last year. The X-something.

And just for the record, I actually own two Xboxes, American and Japanese. I played the living hell out of JSRF and I will be glued to the 'box following the release of Panzer Dragoon Orta. But apart from those, there is NOTHING I want to play on this, past, present, or near future.

As much as I poke fun at myself for being a 'Nintendo fanboy', I'm really not. I love video games, I buy every video game system, I buy all the games that interest me. I own one Xbox game.

Your lack of interest in Splinter Cell, Mech Assault, Halo, House of the Dead III, GunValkyrie, Dead or Alive 3, or Rallisport Challenge doesn't really change the fact that they've found critical acclaim and/or respectable sales. Comparisons to the Jaguar and 3DO are a shade unfair, as the 'box already has a better supply of first-rate software than Atari or Panasonic possessed.

Kobun, professing your dislike of the Xbox is one thing, but pointing to the system as a harbinger of a market crash for largely subjective reasons doesn't hold water. I may as well gripe about the GameCube being a sign of a console apocalypse just because I don't want to own more than one currently available game for it.

Nature Boy

11-21-2002, 04:54 PM

Kid Fenris

11-21-2002, 05:16 PM

The N64 wasn't dominated by American *software* though now, was it? The big sellers on that system were the Japanese games. Without a Japenese market you don't have those games, and without those games nobody buys an N64 - even in North America.

Well, Rare's titles helped a bit (particularly Goldeneye), and so did EA's sports offerings, which kept the PSX from getting an edge in that department. Still, Nintendo's Japanese-developed stuff was certainly an asset, even if they never made a Metroid, Fire Emblem, or Earthbound for the system. I'm still bitter about that.

On a related note, Robotron's post a while back makes me want to see the numbers on the systems traded in at stores like EB and GameStop. Sales are one thing, but a more accurate measure of system-related satisfaction (and dissatisfaction) might be found among gamers who get rid of their consoles for one reason or another. My EB has had more GameCubes turned in than PS2s and Xboxes combined, and this during Metroid month, no less.

Achika

11-21-2002, 05:54 PM

On a related note, Robotron's post a while back makes me want to see the numbers on the systems traded in at stores like EB and GameStop. Sales are one thing, but a more accurate measure of system-related satisfaction (and dissatisfaction) might be found among gamers who get rid of their consoles for one reason or another. My EB has had more GameCubes turned in than PS2s and Xboxes combined, and this during Metroid month, no less.

THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING IN FLINT. NOTE: *NOT THE REST OF THE WORLD*

We see atleast 2 N64's traded in per day, despite the paltry trade in that we give for it. XBox's vs. GCN's are traded in about 3 to 1, with an XBox to PS2 being traded in about 6 to 1. People's asses are clenched when it comes to getting rid of their PS2s. When it comes to selling systems, PS2, XBox, and GCN are all about the same in FLINT (not the rest of the world!!!).

kainemaxwell

11-21-2002, 06:34 PM

What's the usual trade in and selling price of all used systems?
(Just wondering really.)

kevincure

11-21-2002, 07:38 PM

jp, theaveng

The site is www.the-magicbox.com. They have Jap and US sales figures, as well as Euro top lists. Videogames.com also has sales figures every week in the news section.

As for sports, Madden isn't huge, but they usually sell 50-100'000 copies for the PS2 versions in Japan, and hang around the top 10 for at least a few weeks, so there is some market. Admittedly, Winning Eleven sells a ton more (a million for the last one in Japan).

The big seller in Europe that we don't see here for sports is the "Be a Coach" games like Championship Manager. In Japan, high school baseball and j-league soccer is pretty big.

kevincure

11-21-2002, 07:41 PM

As another numbers example:

Dead to Rights (Namco): 270,000 sold in Japan, 1.83 million sold in Europe

Tekken 4: 600,000 sold in Japan, 1.86 million in the US.

These are games that are designed for Japanese markets. Japan is losing its importance, and will continue to do so - however, many games will still be designed "japanese-style" just because so many development houses are there.

kobunheatforum

11-21-2002, 11:14 PM

Frankly, I don't understand why this would happen if Microsoft's difficulties with the Xbox are so frequent and public. If anything, they'll serve as a warning to other companies considering such a plunge. Fledgling software developers won't be led into ruin by the Xbox, as they'll be more likely to avoid the system due to its lack of immediate success.

JGG said approximately the same thing above. What's absolutely important to remember here is that businesspersons don't see the world of video games as we crazy otaku see it. This means two things:

1) Microsoft is seen as having succeeded tremendously. They're a computer software company with minimal previous experience, they're being smart with who they ally themselves with, and they're 'beating' Nintendo (if you look ONLY at US numbers and totally ignore the Game Boy, which you should not).

2) Other companies look at this business as (surprise!) a business. They don't think about innovation in software, they think about bottom-line terms. If they think they can make money doing what Microsoft did, they'll go for it. See: Panasonic, Philips, Magnavox.

More companies will get in on this, sure thing. In 1994, did you ever think that less than ten years later, the top three consoles would be Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft?!

Scores of PC gamers would violently disagree with your statement, but since we're talking primarily about consoles here, I'll say no more.

Scores of PC gamers can eat it. PC gamers are by and large worse than Xbox fanboys in their complete and blind devotion to one platform. If you don't play Japanese console games you don't know what a great game is. Let's be serious.

I'm not entirely sure if I buy this theory, due to counter examples like the Nintendo64. Compared to the dominance shown by the SFC, the N64's share of the Japanese console scene was pathetic, and yet it managed to survive thanks to sales in the U.S.

I think JGG already hit you for this, but N64 was profitable in both countries every quarter - which is more than you can say for the PS1.

Your lack of interest in Splinter Cell, Mech Assault, Halo, House of the Dead III, GunValkyrie, Dead or Alive 3, or Rallisport Challenge doesn't really change the fact that they've found critical acclaim and/or respectable sales.

I heard Halo was great. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2001-11-28&res=l) As for the remaining six, three are Japanese games and I heard they were all quite mediocre. They say the best part of HOTDIII is that HOTDII is included on the disc, that GV is depressingly difficult, and that DOA stands for "Dig Our Asses" because once you're done drooling over Hitomi's scrumptious jailbait booty the game itself is pretty not fun.

Haven't played the other three. Still waiting for them to release in Japan. Will be waiting a long time.

Comparisons to the Jaguar and 3DO are a shade unfair, as the 'box already has a better supply of first-rate software than Atari or Panasonic possessed.

For that matter, so does the Wonderswan Color.

Kobun, professing your dislike of the Xbox is one thing, but pointing to the system as a harbinger of a market crash for largely subjective reasons doesn't hold water. I may as well gripe about the GameCube being a sign of a console apocalypse just because I don't want to own more than one currently available game for it.

I'm not saying the Xbox is going to *cause* the market crash, I'm saying that the fact that Microsoft - MICROSOFT! - can actually do as well as they've been doing in the console market points to a situation where other companies might decide it's worth jumping into the pool, only to thoroughly pee in it and leave others to clean up the mess.

Finally:

Dead to Rights (Namco): 270,000 sold in Japan, 1.83 million sold in Europe ...

These are games that are designed for Japanese markets.

Survey SAYS!

XXX

Dead To Rights was developed by Namco America and, summarily, sucked it.

Anonymous

11-21-2002, 11:21 PM

Tangent: Gunvalkyrie is not extremely difficult. It is as hard as a game should be. I think lots of people gave up before they learned how to basically fly in the game.

Kid Fenris

11-22-2002, 11:41 AM

JGG said approximately the same thing above. What's absolutely important to remember here is that businesspersons don't see the world of video games as we crazy otaku see it. This means two things:

1) Microsoft is seen as having succeeded tremendously. They're a computer software company with minimal previous experience, they're being smart with who they ally themselves with, and they're 'beating' Nintendo (if you look ONLY at US numbers and totally ignore the Game Boy, which you should not).

2) Other companies look at this business as (surprise!) a business. They don't think about innovation in software, they think about bottom-line terms. If they think they can make money doing what Microsoft did, they'll go for it. See: Panasonic, Philips, Magnavox.

More companies will get in on this, sure thing. In 1994, did you ever think that less than ten years later, the top three consoles would be Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft?!

In 1994, I thought that in ten years I'd be plugging my Nintendo Pulsar into the sense-port surgically implanted behind my ear. I was an idealistic child. Anyway . . .

Anyone who views the console market from a business standpoint will note that Microsoft has lost a fair amount of money due to the Xbox, as reported in the article at the start of this thread. And anyone with the slightest degree of business sense will realize that a company stands a chance of taking a similar loss upon entering the console market. For any reasonable businessperson, this is enough of a deterrent. Microsoft may be able to take huge monetary setbacks in exchange for market presence and greater success down the road, but there aren't many companies that would knowingly make such a gamble.

Corporations would also think twice about entering a market in which three separate, highly promoted properties are already duking it out. If Microsoft or Nintendo stepped out of the picture, I could see someone trying to get in on the action, but at present, I doubt that anyone's itching to take on Nintendo, Sony, and the big M all at once.

Yes, companies see the game console industry as a business, and they're not likely to see it as an opportune business if a giant like Microsoft has a relatively tough time of it. If anything, aspiring system-makers may come to the same conclusion that Sega did: It's better just to make games and leave the consoles to someone else.

Scores of PC gamers can eat it. PC gamers are by and large worse than Xbox fanboys in their complete and blind devotion to one platform. If you don't play Japanese console games you don't know what a great game is. Let's be serious.

No offense, Kobun, but the above statements are strangely similar to the type of trenchant fanboy rhetoric that you disdain. Many people play PC games and console games, and if you asked them to name their favorite titles, I don't think that you'd get an exclusively Japanese list.

I think JGG already hit you for this, but N64 was profitable in both countries every quarter - which is more than you can say for the PS1.

Yet you can't say the N64 exhibited a level of popularity and influence that even approximated that of the PSX, particularly with regard to the Japanese market.

I heard Halo was great. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2001-11-28&res=l) As for the remaining six, three are Japanese games and I heard they were all quite mediocre. They say the best part of HOTDIII is that HOTDII is included on the disc, that GV is depressingly difficult, and that DOA stands for "Dig Our Asses" because once you're done drooling over Hitomi's scrumptious jailbait booty the game itself is pretty not fun.

I'm playing Devil's Attorney on this point, but it's just as easy to disparage, say, the GameCube's A-list offerings, from Star Fox Adventures (http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2002-09-27&res=l) to Sub-Par Mario's No-Fun Shine Collecting, which drew more disappointed comments and criticisms than I ever thought it would.

Of course, both titles (and Metroid) received good press among experienced game critics, but those are the same sort of people who named Halo "Game of the Year."

Tangent: GunValkyrie is awesome.

Edit: And highly underrated. And now about $20 at numerous outlets.