Doki Doki Panic vs SMB2: Lost Levels

[kainemaxwell]

Kobun, what were the other reasons for Nintendo to translate DDP into the U.S. SMB2 then bringing over the orginal (besides the difficulty level)?

[NE146]

Probably just for precisely that reason (SMB2 being pretty darn hard). :?

However, I've always also sort of believed that maybe they thought Doki Doki Panic was a cool game in and of itself, and with the Mario characters would be just the ticket for the "U.S. Audience".

They were probably right, because let's face it, smb2-us IS a pretty cool game :) (it did make the transition to the GBA). But yeah, we did miss out on the REAL smb2...

http://www.users.qwest.net/~userid946/EGP-14.jpg

You probably have seen this already but just thought I'd post it..

http://www.classicgaming.com/tmk/smb2_ddp.shtml

[kainemaxwell]

Anyone ever play Doki Doki Panic?

[NE146]

Obviously that dude did in that link I posted above. ;) I think it's playable in rom form as well in any NES emu. I forget the actual name of the rom (it's not DokiDokiPanic I can tell you that...)

[digitalpress]

We have the ROM on our mirror site (where we keep all the emulation stuff so the leechers can have their fun without bogging the rest of the site down).

http://64.127.131.126/emu/nes/fds_dokidoki.zip

Remember that the game is a Famicom Disk System game.

[NE146]

What emu plays FDS games? Is there any way to convert it to a regular old .NES file? (or is that even necessary?)

[kainemaxwell]

Yeah, I was wondering this myself actually.

[digitalpress]

I found the ROM, someone else can figure out how to use it. What am I, your MAID?

</motherly tone>

[NE146]

x_x fine fine.. I'll take a look... *deep sigh*

[sniperCCJVQ]

For FDS rom i use ROCKNESX but you need the "disksys.rom" which is the Famicom Disk BIOS.

[kobunheatforum]

First off, I don't think you can convert FDS images to NES ones because FDS disks are double-sided, and the emulator needs to be programmed specifically to work with FDS.

Great article from EGP, by the way! Got any more interesting ones?

Okay, here are the reasons right off the top of my head:

1) I'll blow the big one right now, since it's first and foremost. Graphics. Doki Doki Panic was a GREAT looking game that took advantage of the extra power of the Disk System. Super Mario Bros. 2 looked EXACTLY like SMB1. Remember that SMB1 debuted in Japan and the US in 1985, and that SMB2 followed in 1986 - in Japan. By the time the US was ready for a sequel, it was already 1988 and Super Mario was looking, well, old. In comparison, by that time the US had already seen Zelda, Metroid, Punch-Out... a return to graphics from three years ago was not going to happen.

2) It's been mentioned... but reason number 2 is difficulty. Let's not forget how insanely difficult SMB2 was, and for all the wrong reasons: backward warps, impossible looping levels... it was an add-on pack for very very good players in Japan, and it wouldn't work as a 'mainstream' sequel in the US. Lots of kids would have cried.

3) Marketability. How do you sell a game that's the exact same thing as the one from three years ago in terms of characters? Replacing with Doki Doki Panic meant all kinds of new critters to scatter about the pages of Nintendo Power, and lots more to talk about re: new abilities, new playable characters, etc.

4) Doki Doki Panic already needed to be changed if it was going to be released in the US - would a game that featured Arabic stereotypes as its main characters really been okay for Nintendo to release as is? No, especially not when it was developed to run alongside a Fuji TV anime called Dream Factory that had no chance of ever coming Stateside. So why release it at all? Well, you see...

5) DDP was a *fantastic* game. And why shouldn't it be: it was designed by Mario Team, after all. Let's face it - all things considered, DDP is a better game than SMB2. Learning curve is nicer, you can romp all over the levels instead of straight forward - making for far more interesting secrets - the boss fights are all unique and, oh yeah, they're FIGHTS, not run-under-it...

Et cetera. Why *not* take this fantastic game, developed by Mario team, and release it as the sequel to SMB in the States? People knew something was up, since I think everyone in those days had read some magazine or another talking about the *real* SMB2 - but it was only later on with Mario All-Stars that we realized that we just weren't missing out on much.

[NE146]

Great article from EGP, by the way! Got any more interesting ones?
Sure! here's a couple (http://207.115.72.242/frank/bookscans/EGP/).

Nice explanation by the way :)

[kainemaxwell]

Great explanation Kobun!

[ubersaurus]

I personally wasn't as big a fan of SMB2us simply because it wasn't like Mario 1. I LOVED Mario 1. When the sequel got played, it was nothing like it, and that was something I didn't like. When I heard about Lost Levels, and finally got to play it on the SNES all star pack, I loved it. It was exactly what I had hoped for in a mario 1 sequel-a neat transition to 3, really hard, cool twists like poison mushrooms and reverse warps, hidden levels...fantastic game!

I have Mario 2, and I always play 1 or 3 more then it, simply because it's so different I don't care for it as much.

[Sylentwulf]

I agree, GREAT post Kobun.

[Tetsu]

Oi, to play Famicom Disk System games, I use the GREATEST FAMICOM EMULATOR ever made, FCE Ultra. Plays Nes, Fami, and Disk System games. It even supports the MMC6 mapper for Akumajo Densetsu (although there are some glitches), so you can compare the near SNES-quality music and graphic touches to the American MMC3 version of Castlevania III. Highly recommended Disk System game: SD Splatterhouse. Anyhoo, get FCE Ultra, press F4 for full screen mode, and go to town with Doki Doki Panic.

[Kess]

Okay, my feelings about SMB2us are anything but good.

I hate the game, its not traditional! You have to throw vegtables?! Yech.

Anyway, Doki Doki Panic looks awesome, now I need to get a Famicom Disk System :P

[digitalpress]

Okay, my feelings about SMB2us are anything but good.
I hate the game, its not traditional! You have to throw vegtables?! Yech.
Anyway, Doki Doki Panic looks awesome, now I need to get a Famicom Disk System :P

Erm, Matt. If you dont' like SMB2 you're not gonna like Doki Doki Panic. In case you missed it, that's the game the US SMB2 was based on. Heavily. And it seems you can play the ROM/image above with FCE Ultra emulator until you find yourself a Disk System.

[kainemaxwell]

I'd use FCE Ultra if my computer wasn't slow.

[ManekiNeko]

I'm in total agreement with Chris. Sequels are supposed to be a step up from the previous game... they're supposed to take concepts introduced in the originals and improve them, while adding new features. The Japanese Super Mario Bros. 2 wasn't a sequel... it was an expansion pack. Even the American release on Super Mario All-Stars acknowledges this by referring to the game as "The Lost Levels". That's essentially all it was... just Super Mario Bros. with new level designs, and precious little else. The graphics weren't improved. The sound wasn't improved. The characters and power-ups were barely changed, and neither was for the better... the only thing more aggravating than misjudging a jump with Luigi is hitting a question block, only to discover a poison mushroom hiding inside it.
Speaking of Super Mario Bros. games that get ENTIRELY too much positive coverage, what the hell's the deal with this Great Giana Sisters crap? I have not played a single game in this series that's impressed me, let alone impressed upon me the idea that this limp Super Mario Bros. clone is somehow better than the real thing. I like the 80's flavored theme (grab a power up and the tiny, timid Giana turns into a punk-haired Cyndi Lauper clone) but that's ALL this game's got going for it.

JR

[ManekiNeko]

I think you can play FDS games on NesterNNC. You're going to need the BIOS for the Famicom Disk System first, though. Once you've got it, you load FDS games like you normally would, then swap discs by selecting an option in the emulator itself.

JR

[Nature Boy]

Can we compare the SMB 2 thing to Zelda? Wasn't Zelda II originally another game that they did the same switcheroo to?

The switeroo does bring up a peeve of mine with the gaming public. Too many people complain about SMB 2 (US) being 'too different.' And yet, at the same time, people complain that there isn't any innovation anymore. Which do you want?

You don't have to like it just because it's new, but don't slam a company for taking a license into a different direction. Like the new Zelda - I don't care if you like it, but I'd rather they try something new than giving me the same Zelda games over and over again. I wouldn't be as big a fan if Zelda had followed Tomb Raider's as far as innovation goes.

[NE146]

Woohoo! Looks like Nester DC 7.0 supports .FDS games. :) I'm in the process now of leeching what looks like every single .FDS image available (hopefully). Apparently you still need the "DISKSYS.ROM" file which for some odd reason seems to be scarce on the net. Anyway, if anyone needs it, feel free to ask ;)

If this pans out (which it should) then it's time to start playing some Doki Doki on the good old BOOB TUBE the way it's meant to be :D

(Did I mention Dreamcast emulation, for what it is, rocks)

[Kid Fenris]

The thing that always mystified me wasn't that Nintendo chose Doki Doki Panic over the true SMB2, but that the company never bothered to release "The Lost Levels" on the NES at all. Combining the straight sequel with the original SMB (in a Super Mario Brothers Special Edition or something) would have made for a nice "classic" title later in the NES's lifespan, perhaps around the same time that Nintendo was rereleasing Metroid, Punch-Out, and both Zelda games.

Of course, this was before Nintendo got into the habit of making upgraded versions of its most beloved titles, wasn't it?

And while we're on the subject of games that were denied American debuts by the big N, I've got a question for Kobun and any other Nintendo fans. Why didn't Nintendo release Terranigma on the SNES in 1996? It's an excellent action/RPG, it was already translated into English for its European edition, and with proper marketing, it could have sold almost as well as any given Zelda. Were they afraid that another semi-role-player would take too much attention away from Super Mario RPG or even the Nintendo64?

Edit: I've also got a similar question about Sin and Punishment for the N64, but that's another matter.

[kainemaxwell]

Fenris, you read my mind...

[NE146]

Hmmm.. Terranigma eh, sounds intriguing! :D

I'll have to try it out! :)

[kainemaxwell]

I got the rom if ya want it.

[Kess]

Uhh Joe, then what is the SMB Lost Levels? Isn't that a SMB/SMB3 style game? I'm missing something here x_x

[digitalpress]

Uhh Joe, then what is the SMB Lost Levels? Isn't that a SMB/SMB3 style game? I'm missing something here x_x

SMB lost levels is SMB2 in Japan. Doki Doki Panic is SMB2 in the USA.

More or less.

[NE146]

Uhh Joe, then what is the SMB Lost Levels? Isn't that a SMB/SMB3 style game? I'm missing something here x_x

Dude.. just check the link I posted earlier. It'll explain it all :)

Here it is again:

http://www.classicgaming.com/tmk/smb2_ddp.shtml

and here is the jap smb2:

http://www.classicgaming.com/tmk/smb2j.shtml

[kobunheatforum]

Did Nintendo release Terranigma in Europe? I thought Enix did.

Anyway, I think it all revolves around the fact that Illusion of Gaia - the Nintendo-released predecessor to Terranigma - just didn't sell well enough for Nintendo. If it had been an explosive success, I get the feeling that TN - renamed "Illusion of Gaia II" would have hit the US.

Sin and Punishment is another story. I think Nintendo wanted to put the N64 to bed, fast. *shrugs*

[Kid Fenris]

I can't say for sure, but I think Nintendo released Terranigma themselves in Europe. Enix's logo appears nowhere on the box cover or cart, and a big, first-party-looking "Nintendo" insignia appears when you boot up the game.

Here's a look at the cover:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=800180694

You're probably right about the Illusion of Gaia connection. Thing is, I don't remember Nintendo promoting Gaia that much, which may be why it didn't sell that well.

[kainemaxwell]

Terranigma was released in Australia also and I think limited in the US...

[strongmanx]

DO you have any other old EGM's you could scan for us to read?

[gamingguy]

Speaking of Super Mario Bros. games that get ENTIRELY too much positive coverage, what the hell's the deal with this Great Giana Sisters crap? I have not played a single game in this series that's impressed me, let alone impressed upon me the idea that this limp Super Mario Bros. clone is somehow better than the real thing.JR


"Great Giana Sisters" was created for owners of the Commodore=64 (me) who didn't have Nintendos. Think of it as the "KC Munchkin" of the late 80's which was a Pac-Man clone for people who didn't have Ataris. Anyway, we C=64 owners have fond memories of that game even if it isn't the real thing. So, that should explain "why" it still floats around.

Also, there wasn't a series. Nintendo promptly sued the maker and stopped Great Giana Sisters from being sold, so only one version was ever produced. If you see GGS2 or GGS3 you are looking at hacked versions. Hacking games for extra levels was very common for the C=64.

Another common thing was "trained" games with infinite lives, ammo, energy, and "press C= key to skip levels".... I LOVE trained games. :D

[CrazyImpmon]

I don't know if this is "OK" but I have the disk bios for emulator at http://personalpages.tds.net/~wilykat/DISKSYS.ROM (use 'Save link as') (If it's not OK to link to tis image, feel free to delete the link)

I think the correct translation for Doki Doki Panic title is Dream Factory: Nervous Panic.

I'll have to look for Terranigma and try it myself. Illusion of Gaia was OK though a tad too linear and a few illogical puzzles. I did have some fun the first time.

[strongmanx]

I loathe SMB2 japan. I just finished the snes lost levels and that game really really pissed me off. Some levels were just insanely difficult. I have no idea how long it would have taken to be the dungeons where you have to have pattern to walk through without the chimes letting you know you did something correct. A very difficult game and i'm very glad it never game out over here as the sequel.

[mauigamer]

I love Super Mario 2 usa. I think I like it better thand the mario 3. Graphically mario 3 owns all but 2 was much more challenging and incorporated a little bit of zelda play. Not to mention the ability to play as 4 differnt players and I like the music better than 3.

[Wavelflack]

Nester DC 6 will play FDS roms.

[rbudrick]

Doki Doki in Japanese is onomatopoeia for the sound of the heart beating. Kinda like Thump thump in English. It probably doesn't indicate nervousness so much as exitement in this case.

-Rob