Misconceptions about RGB monitors

[Anthony1]

In another thread, I talked about how I was amazed at finally enjoying the original Playstation in RGB. Alot of people in that thread said that they would like to enjoy RGB, but the monitors are too expensive or whatever, or it's too complicated, etc, etc.

I just want to say that anybody that has any of these systems:

1. Sega Master System
2. TurboGrafx-16
3. Sega Genesis
4. Super Nintendo
5. Neo Geo
6. Sega CD
7. Atari Jaguar
8. Sega 32X
9. Sega Saturn
10. Neo Geo CD
11. Playstation
12. Nintendo 64


Should seriously consider getting a RGB monitor. If you have alot of love for any of those systems, and you play the real system relatively often, then you really need to get a RGB monitor, and get some RGB cables for those systems.

The misconception about RGB monitors is something that I wish wasn't a factor, but for alot of people, they think they need a freaking arcade monitor or something. It's much, much easier than that.

You don't need to screw around with an Arcade monitor, in fact that really would probably be the worst route to take. It would be more of a hassle and more dangerous.

Anyways, I think that some of you guys should really give RGB a try. It truly is amazing. Basically, the easiest way to explain it, is that for those of you who have seen the GameCube or the Dreamcast or the XBOX in 480p. Well, you know the difference between 480p on those systems, and them just hooked up to a regular TV, well the difference is pretty much the same when we are talking RGB and the non progressive scan systems. Basically anything prior to the Dreamcast and after the NES.

For systems that aren't capable of 480p, RGB is the definite way to go. The clarity and crispness just can't be touched. The little details and all the glory of the artwork of the 2D games really comes out with RGB. Alot of these old games are works of art, and they should be seen on the best possible canvas.


Now, as far as RGB monitors go, the best way to get into RGB on the cheap, to try it out, is to get yourself a Commodore 1084 monitor. I highly recommend the Commodore 1084-S. Sometimes you can find these on Ebay, and sometimes you can find them locally at a freaking thrift store. Just check around. Google it, whatever.

The other option is the Sony PVM's. PVM is Profesional Video Monitor. These monitors that Sony made back in the early and mid 90's are actally monitors that are used in Broadcasting and production and TV Studios and stuff like that. They are also used in different Medical fields. These are professional monitors, and they must be very precise at displaying NTSC. Now when these things first were sold, they cost thousands of dollars. But you can now find them used for around a $100 or a couple of $100 depending on the model you are looking for. I highly suggest the Sony PVM-2530. The Sony PVM-2030 is another fine choice. The nice thing about both of these monitors, is that they also do S-Video about the best that it can be done. And regular old Composite. So even the NES and the 3DO can have fun on this monitor. But the key is the RGB display of these monitors. Absolutely freaking amazing. Basically we are talking about 25 inch and 20 inch TV's that will display an incredible RGB signal that will just blow you out of the water.

I personally have a Sony PVM 2530, and it is just freaking amazing. When you see stuff like Bonk's Adventure (TG-16) or Zelda: A Link to the Past (SNES), you will think you have died and gone to retro gamers heaven.

The big downside with the PVM 2030 and PVM 2530 is how much they weigh. So you have to try to find one within relative driving distance otherwise you will pay a fortune on shipping.

But like I said, if you just want to dip your toe in the waters of RGB Gaming then just get a Commodore 1084 monitor and a RGB cable for your favorite system.

This guy Matthew is really good at making RGB cables for various systems, and he sells them for decent prices. So the cable isn't that big a deal, the key is getting the monitor.

There are tons of other RGB monitors out there, besides the Commodore 1084's and Sony PVM's, just make sure that they do analog RGB at 15Khz.

Oh, if you need to order a RGB cable, just email Matthew at

the_matthew@yahoo.ca

I think that is his email. I haven't ordered anything from him in awhile. He can also do the TG-16 mod, the Turbo Duo mod, and the N64 RGB mods.

[hydr0x]

just a quick question??

why don't you just import/buy a PAL RGB TV?? modern PAL tv's all have rgb and all are able to do 60HZ, wouldn't they work in the US then?

[anagrama]

Oh look, another Anthony1 RGB thread. *shock*

[tholly]

Oh look, another Anthony1 RGB thread. *shock*

LOL LOL

[chadtower]

What's wrong with this thread? He hasn't said anything in here that isn't true.

On a side note, I'm on a list local to me for people who want to pass free things on rather htan throw them in the dump. Recently I got email from a guy who had 5 RGB MONITORS and wanted someone to take them free. The catch was, they had to be gone by noon before he took them to the dump. I got the email at 1pm. He had already taken them by then. :angry:

[anagrama]

What's wrong with this thread? He hasn't said anything in here that isn't true.


True, but it also says nothing that hasn't been said several times already, usually in his other RGB threads.

[Ed Oscuro]

Recently I got email from a guy who had 5 RGB MONITORS and wanted someone to take them free. The catch was, they had to be gone by noon before he took them to the dump. I got the email at 1pm. He had already taken them by then. :angry:
Damn...that would've made some very happy people, for sure. Gah.

I hate it when stuff like that happens! Makes you realize how much old hardware must be lost to the dump every year.

[kai123]

I would love to get an RGB monitor sometime. I just don't have the room for one right now. That is unless I find one for real cheap. :D

[Sylentwulf]

No room for one (I have probably 10 TV/monitor/Cab's hooked up already)
I've never seen a DECENT SIZED RGB Capable monitor that's not an arcade cab stateside.

I still hook up my pre-SNES systems with RF cables, and they look GREAT.

[chadtower]

What's wrong with this thread? He hasn't said anything in here that isn't true.


True, but it also says nothing that hasn't been said several times already, usually in his other RGB threads.

As opposed to the 8908 "which system is better", "gamestop/eb/yourmom is evil", or "how much is this/how rare is this"? He feels passionately about RGB and wants to talk about it. There's nothing wrong with that. If you want to be against all of the repetitiveness on this board, Anthony should be WAY DOWN on your list of targets.

[ClubNinja]

If you want to be against all of the repetitiveness on this board, Anthony should be WAY DOWN on your list of targets.

Bingo.

[Anthony1]

just a quick question??

why don't you just import/buy a PAL RGB TV?? modern PAL tv's all have rgb and all are able to do 60HZ, wouldn't they work in the US then?


Well, I would think that shipping something like that from the U.K. would cost a freaking fortune. That's why.

And it really isn't necessary when I can get a Sony PVM monitor that cost 3 grand brand new, I can get one for around $200 or so, and they are totally freaking awesome.

Just about the best 25 inch non HDTV that you can have.

I haven't seen a better TV at displaying RGB, S-Video or Composite.

[Anthony1]

I would love to get an RGB monitor sometime. I just don't have the room for one right now. That is unless I find one for real cheap. :D


No room for one?

You can get very small RGB monitors. In fact, that is the easiest way to go. My Commodore 1084-S is a very small monitor, it's only 13 inches, but if you sit pretty close to it, it's fine. Even with such a small screen, the picture is so ridiculously detailed, that it's actually one of the finest monitors that I have.

I love the Sony PVM, because it's 25 inches, but my little 13 inch 1084 monitor is sweet as well. You can get these off of Ebay for like $25 or $50 plus shipping. And the shipping isn't that horrible, because these are very small monitors.


Also, if you go on Ebay and do a search for "Sony PVM", you will find tons of PVM's in all kinds of various sizes. Even as small as 8 inches!! I have seen some of the real small ones be sold for super cheap, and because they are so small the shipping isn't bad either.

P.S. - If anybody does get a Sony PVM monitor, make sure it has that one plug on it that does the RGB signal, and luckily Matthew knows how to make a cable for that plug. He has some friends that also have Sony PVM's, so he's familar with them.

[Anthony1]

Oh look, another Anthony1 RGB thread. *shock*



Ok, so I happen to do alot of RGB threads. Big deal. If you don't like them, then just totally avoid them. It's just that every time I fire up one of my RGB monitors, and I experience something like the Sega Saturn or Atari Jaguar in glorious RGB, I just have to pinch myself. I love the shit. I just can't help it.

Plus, here in the U.S.A, you wouldn't believe how many people don't know a damn thing about video games and RGB. So many people don't even have the slightest clue about it.

But the reason why I'm always preaching about RGB, is because it's so affordable, and for anybody that really loves a particular system, you should really enjoy it the way it was intended to be enjoyed.

Maybe one day I will have to go to one of these Retro Gaming conventions and I will bring all my RGB monitors and my cables, and just have a booth on RGB gaming.

I can talk about it all day long till I'm blue in the face, but it's really something that needs to be seen to be understood.

[chadtower]

I'm always on the lookout for one of those 25" PVMs locally.

[ddockery]

Damn, I'm about to re-work my office/gameroom, and this would be an awesome way of setting things up. A 25" would rock my damn world... I need to start looking for adecent one in the central IL or even Chicago area and make this happen.

[davidleeroth]

Maybe one day I will have to go to one of these Retro Gaming conventions and I will bring all my RGB monitors and my cables, and just have a booth on RGB gaming.

Make them a believer A1! Just watch out for them Judases for they do not know what they're doing. ;)

[Ed Oscuro]

Plus, here in the U.S.A, you wouldn't believe how many people don't know a damn thing about video games and RGB. So many people don't even have the slightest clue about it.
That's correct, minus the video games bit ;)


But the reason why I'm always preaching about RGB, is because it's so affordable, and for anybody that really loves a particular system, you should really enjoy it the way it was intended to be enjoyed.
Yeah, like on a TV! Many of the more modern games were created with the idea that they'd end up on a TV screen after all, ya know, and some actually look awkward in pixel-perfect resolution. There's lots of stuff I'd like in RGB...and lots of stuff that's perfectly fine on an old TV with a composite connection. Matter of preference (why do so many emulators include the blur functions, after all?), but also of money.


Maybe one day I will have to go to one of these Retro Gaming conventions and I will bring all my RGB monitors and my cables, and just have a booth on RGB gaming.
Alright, if I was around I'd stop by and fiddle with the control knobs ;)


I can talk about it all day long till I'm blue in the face, but it's really something that needs to be seen to be understood.
We've all got computer screens here...

[Sylentwulf]

Right, and if you read the rest of my post, why would I WANT a monitor that small? And a 25-27" would be fine, but then that takes up too much room. If I had enough room for another 25-27" it would be immediately occupied by another arcade cabinet of some kind.

[Berserker]

...

:bday:

[TheRedEye]

I found this thread educational and refreshing. Those who don't should consider causing drama somewhere else, because you're clogging up a perfectly good thread with your childish blathering.

[BenT]

I can vouch for that Matthew fellow. He did my N64 and Duo RGB mods, as well as sell me some cool games. His work is professional and reasonably priced. Only problem? You gotta ship your stuff to Hawaii. Worth it, though.

[farfel]

InNow, as far as RGB monitors go, the best way to get into RGB on the cheap, to try it out, is to get yourself a Commodore 1084 monitor.

! lousy 14 inch monitor??????? No. A better is 30" HDTV with 1080 scan lines. Blows that tiny 14 incher in the pants.

And I don't see the difference from S-video to Component to RGB. Looks the same to me. No reason wasting money for something not visible..

[Berserker]

I'm guessing what makes the notable difference is no visible scanlines, and a higher refresh rate, offering smoother animation. despite my previous quandries, I'm genuinely interested in seeing one of these things in action.

[BenT]

! lousy 14 inch monitor??????? No. A better is 30" HDTV with 1080 scan lines. Blows that tiny 14 incher in the pants.
From a pure image quality standpoint, I'm afraid you're wrong that an HDTV is better than an RGB monitor. (Note: I am only talking about old systems here; not games that support progressive scan.) The reason is that the HDTV has a built-in line-doubler that, well, doubles the amount of horizontal lines in interlaced signals -- the exact type of signals put out by games that don't support progressive scan. In the case of older, low-res (~320x240) games, this means that the natural scanlines are replaced by those duplicated lines, making pixels look chunky. With the scanlines gone the pixels are now twice as tall, after all.

An RGB monitor displays low-res graphics the way they're intended to be displayed -- with scanlines. That makes for a huge difference in appearance. It also doesn't subject the video signal to any of the other questionable image processing that many HDTVs perform.

I do agree that 14" is kinda small, though. I'm going for a 27" arcade monitor, personally.


And I don't see the difference from S-video to Component to RGB. Looks the same to me. No reason wasting money for something not visible..
Well, I guess RGB's not for you, then. The differences are quite apparent to me and others.

One big flaw with S-Video is that the color red tends to "bleed" a lot into surrounding pixels. And of course its picture is not as sharp as that of better signal types.

[dj898]

I found this thread educational and refreshing. Those who don't should consider causing drama somewhere else, because you're clogging up a perfectly good thread with your childish blathering.

well said.

[Berserker]

..So my stab in the dark about no visible scanlines was unfounded, I guess I'm just going to have to see one in person to understand.

[boatofcar]

Maybe one day I will have to go to one of these Retro Gaming conventions and I will bring all my RGB monitors and my cables, and just have a booth on RGB gaming.

Actually, what I'd love to see is side-by-side comparisons of composite, s-video, component, and RGB. A booth at a gaming expo would be a perfect place to demonstrate.

[gonzo90017]

What other Sony PVM models would work?

[Anthony1]

What other Sony PVM models would work?


All of them that have that RGB plug on the back. I think it's a 25 pin plug. 13 pins on top and 12 pins on the bottom. It also usually says Synch on Green right by where that plug is located on the back.

Some of the PVM's also have S-Video, and if you can get one that has S-Video definitely do that, because these monitors do S-Video signals about as well as they can possibly be done. If you are a huge fan of the 3DO, then that is a big plus, because with that system, the best output you can get is with S-Video.

With all of the other systems, of course you would want to use the RGB plug.

Oh, also, if you have a Atari 2600 with a S-Video mod, then the PVM's with S-Video would be perfect with that as well.


With the original NES system, the composite plug can be used. You have to get a BNC adapter from Radio Shack to use the composite plug of stuff like the NES.

[Anthony1]

InNow, as far as RGB monitors go, the best way to get into RGB on the cheap, to try it out, is to get yourself a Commodore 1084 monitor.

! lousy 14 inch monitor??????? No. A better is 30" HDTV with 1080 scan lines. Blows that tiny 14 incher in the pants.

And I don't see the difference from S-video to Component to RGB. Looks the same to me. No reason wasting money for something not visible..



I'm sorry, but you are misinformed about this. HDTV's for the most part are very bad ideas for Video Game systems prior to the Dreamcast. Like has been said before, they usually have very cheap line doublers in them, and when they get a composite or S-Video signal, or 480i component signal, they typically line double that signal, and in the process your old classic video games can actually look quite a bit worse than they did on a regular TV. Also, true HDTV's are widescreen. All of the old video game systems have a natural 4:3 output, not 16:9. So they are going to look better on a 4:3 TV or monitor.

Now, having said all of that, I will say that if you have a modded XBOX, and you have that hooked up to a HDTV that can natively display 720p, then some of the Emulators on there, can almost, with the key word being "almost" look as good as RGB. Notably the Neo Genesis emulator. That emulator actually comes very, very close, but not quite to viewing the Genesis in RGB. And if you are a huge NES fan, then playing the NES on a modded XBOX on a HDTV in 720p, if the HDTV can do 720p, is pretty freaking amazing as well. In fact, so freaking amazing that I got rid of all my physical NES systems and games. I just play that Emulator on the XBOX, when I need a NES fix. Or my GBA with Pocket NES.

But I digress........


Anyways, back on the subject at hand, when it comes to systems like the TurboGraphx-16 and Sega Genesis and Super Nintendo and Sega CD and Atari Jaguar and Sega 32X and Sega Saturn and Neo Geo and Neo Geo CD and Playstation and Nintendo 64, then nothing can touch a true RGB signal on a true RGB monitor.

Period.

I should know. I have 3 HDTV's in my house. Besides being a Video Game nut, I'm a huge home theater nut.

But the bottom line is that for the TG-16 and the 16bit and 32bit systems, RGB is the way to go period. You won't get a better picture by any other method. Emulator included.

In fact, I will never get rid of my physical TG-16 gear, or my Genesis gear, or my SNES gear, or Sega CD gear, Saturn, Jaguar, Playstation, 32X, etc, etc because RGB will always be the best way to display those games. True unaltered RGB will always be the best for those systems.

I'm a connosiuer of this art that we call video games, especially the 16-bit and 32-bit era's that I'm so fond of. I love those systems very much and I want to view them in the best possible way I can.

[PhoeniX]

Ok, you guys seems to know what your talking about.

Can anybody help me out on the folling question:

I have a 20 inch Sony monitor that is meant to work on a sun worstation, the connection to it is 13w3 (as opposed to 15db that is what vga uses) what is distinct about this monitor is that the sync is on green...

Does anybody know if I can use this monitor for RGB????

I apologize in advance if this is a completely stupid question.

[Pedro Lambrini]

just a quick question??

why don't you just import/buy a PAL RGB TV?? modern PAL tv's all have rgb and all are able to do 60HZ, wouldn't they work in the US then?

Sorry if this sounds silly but I take it from the quote above NTSC tellys don't support RGB, is that right? I just presumed that in this day and age most, if not all, tellys would've. Maybe there is a good point to staying in the UK after all!

BTW I run all my consoles in RGB and it does, in generel, make a world of difference. :)

[chadtower]

Anthony...

...I'd really love to see a web page about RGB gaming. It would contain everything from which consoles support it, docs on how to mod the consoles to known monitors, the benefits... that way you wouldn't have to scream all the time, you could just pimp the url. I'd definitely be interested in working on this if you are.

[hydr0x]

yeah anthony

that's a good idea indeed, why don't you just make a website about the technical aspects of gaming (rgb, hdtv, surround...), i guess a lot of us would be interested in that (me too) and you wouldn't have to care about posting to many topics about this stuff..

[anagrama]

OK, OK - apologies for pissing on an informative topic. You can call off the dogs now ;)
I'm aware that RGB info isn't as well known across your side of the pond, but I figured most people who would be interested would have read one or more of the previous ones. I'll bite my tongue in future :embarrassed:

[Aussie2B]

We had a Commodore monitor, but my boyfriend promptly blew it out while trying to figure out how to hook up his Neo Geo to it. :/ It was a sad day. :(

I'm happy using just about anything, though. Hell, sometimes I still play NES all the way up to GameCube on my tiny little TV I've had since I was about 10 with good old RF.

I'm satisfied with the quality of s-video, and it's a hell of a lot cheaper than a $200 Sony monitor. One of these days I really need to buy the official Nintendo s-video cable. o_O

[BenT]

Sorry if this sounds silly but I take it from the quote above NTSC tellys don't support RGB, is that right? I just presumed that in this day and age most, if not all, tellys would've. Maybe there is a good point to staying in the UK after all!
You are correct. Back in the '80s you could buy American TVs and find nothing more than RF input on the backs. Then Composite came about, then S-Video. Only in the late '90s did we finally get an input type that was close to RGB -- Component.

Pity us poor Yanks! ;)

[NESu]

OK, OK - apologies for pissing on an informative topic. You can call off the dogs now ;)
I'm aware that RGB info isn't as well known across your side of the pond, but I figured most people who would be interested would have read one or more of the previous ones. I'll bite my tongue in future :embarrassed:


Anthony...

...I'd really love to see a web page about RGB gaming. It would contain everything from which consoles support it, docs on how to mod the consoles to known monitors, the benefits... that way you wouldn't have to scream all the time, you could just pimp the url. I'd definitely be interested in working on this if you are.


hacha!

http://atarilabs.com/meat/2000/1201_videoprimer.shtml

[chadtower]

Yes, that's a signal primer. It does not have pinouts and hacking instructions for consoles... nor monitor specific port pinouts... etc etc...

[BenT]

The main page (http://www.gamesx.com/index2.htm) does have some of that stuff, actually. GamesX is a very useful site for those getting started with RGB.

[farfel]

I found this thread educational and refreshing. Those who don't should consider causing drama somewhere else, because you're clogging up a perfectly good thread with your childish blathering.well said.
Agree - But why create a second RGB topic? I thik that's the reason for "drama"



S-video has red blur? What's the vivislbe difference between Component & RGB?

[BenT]

Very little. I doubt I could notice it, myself.

[Tetsu]

If you think you've never seen RGB in action, think again. Your computer monitor is essentially an RGB monitor. So if you've ever fired up an emulator, you'd notice how sharp and crisp all the sprites look, even inches from the screen. The only difference is that a large RGB monitor would have scanlines.

Some games that have simple shapes and colors look excellent in RGB, such as Bonk's Adventure and the Mario games. Some games look like utter crap; best example is Castlevania: SotN for either Saturn or Playstation. I played both versions on my RGB-modded saturn and Playstation hooked up to a Sony PVM 1910: the backgrounds and especially sprites the were blocky and extremely pixellated. Capcom vs SNK on Dreamcast shows its flaws in RGB: the hi-res backgrounds looked great but the old lo-res sprites ripped from SF Alpha looked like they were drawn in MS Paint. Finally, lo resolution 3D games like those old Playstation and Saturn games in RGB look blocky, blurry, and dirty. To sum it up:

RGB

+

Lo res, simple graphics = super sharp and crisp shapes and outlines

lo res, detailed graphics = brings out all the flaws and pixellation

hi res, detailed graphics = super sharp and crisp shapes and outline

[Chunky]

I'm curious iback at the old parent house they have an extra tv laying around it's a 29 inch oak console from the 80's(Mitsubishi)and i remember it have something like a 13 or 25 pin RGB input in the back. it was a pretty penny back in the day.

is this what i'm looking for or is the age of it a problem(the damn thing looks sharp for just the rca a/v inputs it has also)

[BenT]

Tetsu, I personally disagree with some of your conclusions. I would say that RGB makes *any* low-res game look as good as it can. Nothing to do with the "complexity" of the graphics.

What does matter is what screen mode a game runs in. Your example of Capcom vs. SNK was faulty because that game ran in a high-res (640x480) interlaced mode. Interlaced games lack scanlines, and the low-res sprites are line-doubled. That's why they looked pixelated, not because of some flaw inherent in RGB. It's Capcom's fault for being retards and putting low-res sprites in a high-res game. Without their intended scanlines, the sprites look crap.

The 3D PSX/SAT games look kinda bad because ... well, they just look kinda bad by today's standards. I suppose some people might prefer to have a dirty video signal "soften" these graphics up a bit, but I'd prefer to see them in all their ugly, 1996 glory. I like sharp pictures.

Btw, I'm sure you're aware, but Saturn and PlayStation don't require RGB mods ... just cables. Just clearing that up for any newbies reading this. ^_^

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm smelling a bit of "you're wrong, you should play old games on an RGB monitor" attitude. I don't see how that has a place here.

On the other hand...Tetsu's example of SotN as a game that looks bad on an RGB/pixel perfect monitor is totally offbase. The game looks great (assuming we're talking about the PS version, since the Saturn version looks godawful anyhow) and that's that. If you don't like the game's graphics because they're pixelated, I'd venture to say you're not a classic gamer. Kthx.

There's a difference between "pixelated" and "bad looking." I've found that the ultra-high-res ports of DOOM look bad; the original was designed with that standard 320x240 res in mind, and the geometry looks unnatural to me running at UXGA or whatever it is you can select these days. The original "fogs" things a little bit and keeps the game's scale intimate. That's a very specific example, of course.

I also wonder about folks who worry so much about getting "the jaggies" out of their games; are they really so horrified at one unrepentantly jagged railing edge that they literally cannot enjoy the game as a result? Is it that visually disconcerting (in most instances)? Anti-aliasing, in my opinion, is a mostly false issue in graphics. As long as your player models and the world geometry all runs in the same resolution, things should be just fine.

Having the video signal a bit dirty to cover up sharp edges and give older games some pleasant blurring is exactly why lots of folks don't care about RGB for Sat/N64 games; however, now that I think about it I really liked the improvement I got with an S-Video cable on the N64 (either Castlevania, and the original Xtreme G looks as streaky as ever). Everything looks MUCH better on my Game Cube now that I've started using that cable. Metroid: Zero Mission looks awesome, as opposed to "sort of like a bunch of stuff swirled around with a stick." So perhaps it's sort of "it always looked good to me so I'm sticking with it." G-Darius looks just fine in MAME, and that's as blocky as anything (I've a soft spot for early software texturing-styled games from the 1990s, myself). Hell, for the first year or two I played Goldeneye I had it on an old monitor used for a TI-99/4A that tinted red green. Didn't bother me that much. (To this day, I wonder why blood is red. Aren't we all Vulcans? Though that doesn't explain the need to shoot up things very well.)

Thus, Anthony's "I keep saying it because you can't understand it until you've seen it" is something I can vouch for, because my experience has proven it to be true.

I challenge somebody who's played a game on both regular three-plug A/V and S-Video to come up with a reason why they liked the A/V better. I honestly can't.

@ Chunky: Wow, neat. I should see if I can't find one of those. That would be very useful!

[Anthony1]

First of all, I just wanted to say, that if you are looking for a Sony PVM monitor, make absolutely sure that it has the 25 pin plug on the back. It says "CMPTR" by the 25 pin plug, and it also says "Sync on Green". So if it has that on the back, then it should be able to do RGB. But I was doing some searches on Sony PVM's, and there are a number of them that don't have this plug, so make sure that if you get a PVM, that it has it.


Now, besides that, I just wanted to address this thought that some people have about RGB actually making games look worse. I'm sorry but I just don't agree on this. All RGB does is just reveal everything about the game. The Good the Bad and the Ugly. But still, I prefer to see the game in it's complete entirety, and jaggies don't bother me. Jaggies should be expected when you are talking about PS1 and Saturn 3D games. If I saw some Jaggies on a XBOX game then I would be pissed, but on games from the 32 bit era, please, that's just the way it was in that era. I want to experience the games for what they are, blemishes and all.

But the bottom line is that non progressive scan games will look best in RGB, if it can do RGB. It's as simple as that.

If you have a XBOX or a GameCube or a PS2, then you might as well play the games in progressive scan. (Although tons of PS2 games aren't in progressive scan, and do look best in RGB in those cases). If you have a Sega Dreamcast, then play it in progressive scan as well.

But other than that, you should be playing in RGB if at all possible. It's going to be the best possible signal you are going to get from a non progressive source, period. Case closed.

By the way, just the other day I was playing Assualt Rigs for the Playstation in RGB, and the game was just totally awesome. It's a early Playstion 3D game in RGB, and it is freaking sweet in RGB. So that theory simply goes out the window as far as I'm concened. And when it comes to Castlevania:S.O.T.N., you have to be out of your mind! That game is freaking drop dead gorgeous in RGB!

[chadtower]

There's an awful lot of "case closed", "that's that", and "kthx" in this thread. Is this a debate or a lecture?

Anthony is well documented in his opinion. He thinks RGB is the best way to play games. I am going to play devil's advocate here.

RGB is the CLEAREST way to play games. These games were designed to be played via a/v, coax, or svideo. Playing them via RGB is not playing them the way they were designed, tested, or intended. Is playing a purer video signal better than playing them as the developers intended?

Which is more important: A perfectly clear video signal, or playing the games according to the creators' implementation?

[farfel]

snip

[Ed Oscuro]

There's an awful lot of "case closed", "that's that", and "kthx" in this thread. Is this a debate or a lecture?
Yes, it's no good that I'm discussing "jaggies" from PC games at the same time I'm talking about console games; but those are some issues I'd wanna talk about. All the same, I did some thinking and realized I usually like the sharper stuff much better.

I like my Golden Axe II just fine on A/V - that game doesn't need to be played with an S-Video connection to look great. I really don't know - would I need to play that in S-Video? Hard to say. You're right; most of the games from that era play just fine that way. Yet while the games are designed to be played on a TV, I look at some of these sprites and have a hard time feeling the designers would mind if their games were played on a monitor-clear display. Examples of extreme contrast between colors are pretty rare, and even in that worst case it's not something that I worry about.

I think much of what I'm after is that S-Video looks good enough for me in most circumstances, but I'm all for getting an RGB TV for a Supergun. If I had a reason to get one, that'd be nice.

Until then, though, it's not very effective for the cost involved.

[Tetsu]

"First of all, I just wanted to say, that if you are looking for a Sony PVM monitor, make absolutely sure that it has the 25 pin plug on the back. It says "CMPTR" by the 25 pin plug, and it also says "Sync on Green". So if it has that on the back, then it should be able to do RGB. But I was doing some searches on Sony PVM's, and there are a number of them that don't have this plug, so make sure that if you get a PVM, that it has it. "


Wow, pretty cool. I didn't know you could input RGB signals into the computer port. I guess it makes sense, but I didn't know it would take the NTSC sync. However, even if the PVM's don't have the "CMPTR" port on the back, I think it is still RGB capable if it has the R, G, and B BNC connnectors.



"
Btw, I'm sure you're aware, but Saturn and PlayStation don't require RGB mods ... just cables. "


yup, you're right, no mods required. I still maintain that I modded my systems though, since Iopened them up and hard wired them to the monitor. I was too lazy to build cables, it was just easier to run wires.
:)



Your example of Capcom vs. SNK was faulty because that game ran in a high-res (640x480) interlaced mode. Interlaced games lack scanlines, and the low-res sprites are line-doubled. That's why they looked pixelated, not because of some flaw inherent in RGB.

I didn't mean that RGB "makes" things look bad, but that it brings out the bad as well as the good. Sorry, I should have been more clear. :embarrassed:


Tetsu's example of SotN as a game that looks bad on an RGB/pixel perfect monitor is totally offbase. The game looks great (assuming we're talking about the PS version, since the Saturn version looks godawful anyhow) and that's that. If you don't like the game's graphics because they're pixelated, I'd venture to say you're not a classic gamer. Kthx.

I think SotN looks terrible in RGB because it brings out the flaws, some of which happen to be pixelation and washed out colors. It's my opinion that that the game looks terrible in RGB, and I gave my reasons for it. Your statement that the "game looks great...and that's that" makes you sound pretty ignorant. My reasons being, you won't recognize an opinion besides your own and you make assumptions about someone you don't know. Sure is nice to be a smartass over the internet without having to worry about getting your fucking head kicked, huh? "K thx".

[Anthony1]

There's an awful lot of "case closed", "that's that", and "kthx" in this thread. Is this a debate or a lecture?

Anthony is well documented in his opinion. He thinks RGB is the best way to play games. I am going to play devil's advocate here.

RGB is the CLEAREST way to play games. These games were designed to be played via a/v, coax, or svideo. Playing them via RGB is not playing them the way they were designed, tested, or intended. Is playing a purer video signal better than playing them as the developers intended?

Which is more important: A perfectly clear video signal, or playing the games according to the creators' implementation?


I'm not trying to force my opinon on anybody. It's just my personal take. But I'm very passionate about RGB. I just think it's the cat's meow, and I wish everybody had a legitmate chance to experience it first hand before they made a judgement about it one way or the other.

Now, when you say that the games weren't designed to be played in RGB, well you are correct to a point. Sure nobody expected there to be a large number of people actually experiencing the game in RGB, but developers did know that there are people out there that would experience it in RGB.

For example, most of the major gaming magazines had RGB monitors in their offices, and the pictures that you actually saw in magazines are RGB screen grabs. Alot of the pics in magazines for ads are RGB screen grabs as well. Japan and Europe had a large number of people that would play it in RGB as well. And Developers would often play test the games on RGB monitors.

Did you know that when a game is in RGB you can't alter the color? You can turn the color knob to the left or right, but it doesn't do anything. Because the color is exactly as it was programmed.

Now if that ain't how the developer intended, then I don't know what is.

[chadtower]

They use RGB screen grabs because they have to do so for printing purposes. You can't take an a/v or svideo screen grab and then print it. It will look like crap.

[ddockery]

AFter looking around a bit, the Sony PVM 2530 looks awesome. I love the ability to go vertical for shooters that support this option. What is a typical price? On eBay every seems to expect $300+ and shipping would kill me I'm sure. Is there another good place to look?

[farfel]

This htread is confusing. Progressive? Interlaced? Line-dubling? Scanlines? One is better than the other? Huh? What? Why? Isn't a pciture just a picture? My brain hurts



Now, when you say that the games weren't designed to be played in RGB, well you are correct to a point. Sure nobody expected there to be a large number of people actually experiencing the game in RGB, but developers did know that there are people out there that would experience it in RGB.
Given that Nintendo has removed the Component option from the Cube I suspect devlopers don't give a darn about the small 1% with high-quality RGB




I challenge somebody who's played a game on both regular three-plug A/V and S-Video to come up with a reason why they liked the A/V better. I honestly can't.
RF = wavy lines from antenna interference = yuck
AV/Composite = good but blurred color
S-Video = beautiful clarity like a monitor
RGB or Component = ??? looks like S-video to me


I use S-video and yes I can see the jaggies on old N64/PS1 games but don't care. 320x240 is a lo-res format so of course you see jaggies! I'd rather see jaggies than blurring.




NOTE - turn off the sharpness. The picture will look better in its pure form.

[Ed Oscuro]

I thought I was pretty much done responding (or creating, for that matter) flamebait, but this is just too much to pass up.


I think SotN looks terrible in RGB because it brings out the flaws, some of which happen to be pixelation and washed out colors. It's my opinion that that the game looks terrible in RGB, and I gave my reasons for it. Your statement that the "game looks great...and that's that" makes you sound pretty ignorant. My reasons being, you won't recognize an opinion besides your own and you make assumptions about someone you don't know. Sure is nice to be a smartass over the internet without having to worry about getting your fucking head kicked, huh? "K thx".
You probably should consider taking an anger management course if THAT set you off! LOL I make innocuous comments of a smartass nature all the time; I don't really think that needing to take such comments in a visceral nature all the time is a very useful life skill, but you seem to have that one down pat.

As for your comments, I've played SotN on ePSXe. I thought it'd be obvious that when I say "the game looks great, and that's that" is a statement of opinion. What else could it be? Nobody's going to shoot you if those nasty blocky pixels in old games get between you and enjoying the game.

However, I'm not just talking about nasty pixels (which, again, are a feature of all old games - if you don't like better quality graphics, you're distancing yourself from reality; most old arcade games have nearly pixel-perfect RGB displays not too far from current stuff in terms of quality), but colors. The game's colors are an area where I really do think I've made a point of fact. The game was designed with a dark, "gothic" atmosphere, and the colors aren't washed out, they're just dark. You can interpret those as you wish, but when somebody says the colors are "washed out" that should mean that the designers would've made the graphics improved had they been able with the color palette. That's not the case with SotN on the PSX.

Finally, you have no room to be making these comments, seeing how I'm not the only one who misinterpreted your comments about RGB:



Your example of Capcom vs. SNK was faulty because that game ran in a high-res (640x480) interlaced mode. Interlaced games lack scanlines, and the low-res sprites are line-doubled. That's why they looked pixelated, not because of some flaw inherent in RGB.
I didn't mean that RGB "makes" things look bad, but that it brings out the bad as well as the good. Sorry, I should have been more clear. :embarrassed:
I don't intend to rub it in, but you yourself admitted that this is partly due to your apparent decrying of RGB as it makes "low res, high detail" games "look bad."

[Tan178]

i totally agree with the ideal that rgb is superior, but as a retro gamer i prefer to see my games as i seen them back in the day for nostalgic purposes, to me it's no different than running emulators as opposed to real systems, and if it's not av cables or rf adapters or coaxial then it's not genuine, you'll never get a Nes to look like a gamecube, so just enjoy it as it is, unless nostalgia means nothing and you have $$ to throw around then power to you 8-)

[Half Japanese]

Given that Nintendo has removed the Component option from the Cube I suspect devlopers don't give a darn about the small 1% with high-quality RGB

I think that's more an issue of Nintendo saving money any way it can at the moment. As I've stated before, I believe the main reason that many people don't take advantage of the port is because the only way to get the cable is through Nintendo's website. Consumer ignorance. People rarely buy what they can't see and don't know exists. That said, developers are still pumping out prog-scan GCN games, and even the GameBoy Player has prog-scan support, which lends credence to the RGB enthusiasts claims.

[Ed Oscuro]

Basically - while Sony is updating and improving their PS2 hardware by including the network adapter as standard, Nintendo is cutting features that developers have taken advantage of. Yay.

Could you imagine them doing the same with a highly popular DS hardware? No, not really. They're doing this because they think nobody will notice, and it's not as if they make access to the cable very easy.

I really need to get one of those cables sometime. I can imagine they'll eventually be a tough find, too.

[Anthony1]

i totally agree with the ideal that rgb is superior, but as a retro gamer i prefer to see my games as i seen them back in the day for nostalgic purposes, to me it's no different than running emulators as opposed to real systems, and if it's not av cables or rf adapters or coaxial then it's not genuine, you'll never get a Nes to look like a gamecube, so just enjoy it as it is, unless nostalgia means nothing and you have $$ to throw around then power to you 8-)


Well, I actually used a RGB monitor back then. I got my first RGB monitor in like 1992/1993. I used it with Genesis, SNES and Sega CD. Initially. Then I remember using the 32X on it, and Atari Jaguar. Then Saturn.

That was it. I had a TurboGrafx-16, but didn't know about RGB then. I didn't even find out until recently that the Turbo even did RGB!! With the Playstation, I desperately wanted one, but Redmond Cable never made one. I got rid of my PSX and N64 and switched to PC Gaming for a few years, so I gave up my search for a PSX RGB Cable. I also never knew that the N64 could do RGB. Didn't know that it could be internally modded.


It really sucks too. Cause I would have loved to have actually seen Bonk's Adventure in RGB back when it actually was released. Or a game like Legendary Axe or Dungeon Explorer. Looking at those games now in RGB, it really is an amazing experience. To think that if I knew what I know now, back in 1989, I could have been playing my TG-16 in RGB back in 1989. That would have been so cool! And to think I never saw the original PSX in RGB during the time that I had a PSX. Man, it would have been totally amazing to have seen a game like Wipeout and Loaded and Doom in RGB back in late 1995.

And with the N64, this is a system that, like the TG-16, I didn't even know it could do RGB. I actually had no idea until a couple of years ago that it could even do RGB. Pretty amazing. I will say however, that of all the systems that work in RGB, the Nintendo 64 is the worst in terms of RGB signal quality. For some reason the RGB signal with the N64 is just a little too dark. I don't know, the signal is just kinda off, when it comes to the N64. It's still amazingly clear, but it's not the crisp, vivid, normal RGB picture that you get with every other system. The N64 RGB needs to be amplified, and even after amplification, it's still slight dissapointing from RGB standards.

[Anthony1]

AFter looking around a bit, the Sony PVM 2530 looks awesome. I love the ability to go vertical for shooters that support this option. What is a typical price? On eBay every seems to expect $300+ and shipping would kill me I'm sure. Is there another good place to look?


If you are patient, you can get a Sony PVM 2530 for around $150 - $200 off of Ebay. Sometimes even cheaper!


I actually got mine for like $125. But I drove pretty far to pick it up. I took an hour and a half drive to go get it. That way I saved like $90 on the shipping.

Just make sure that the unit is functioning properly, because returning it, would be virtually impossible. The thing weighs a freaking ton.

The Sony PVM 2030 is also a great idea. Same features, but 20 inches instead of 25.

The key on all these monitors is the shipping. You must really know what the shipping is going to be before bidding. You can do a search on Ebay by your Zip Code. You can put your Zip Code in, and the miles away. Try it with like 150 miles and see if one is local that you can drive to and pick up. If they don't charge anything for the pickup, then you can save a ton. Some of these places will actually charge like $150 shipping. So be carefull.


Just the other day I almost bought a Sony PVM 1910 for like $85 shipped. It's a 19 inch version. For only $85, to get a PVM, is a sweet deal. I just missed it before the action closed and somebody else bought it.