Madden 2005 and NFL 2K5 sales figures

[zmweasel]

While thumbin' through the October '04 issue of OPM, I noticed a new column called "The Sports Guy" by Todd Zuniga, who'd left the magazine a while back to work on the Madden series at Electronic Arts. I assume the Todd-monster didn't find the game-development (non-)life to his liking, although the reason for his departure from EA isn't mentioned in his column or his bio.

(Dave Zdyrko, who left a game-journo gig at IGN to work on the ESPN NFL series at Visual Concepts, must be very satisfied at having succeeded where Zuniga failed. Then again, Todd is just another rabid sports fan, whereas Dave was an offensive lineman on a state-champion high-school football squad. He's the John Madden of the 21st century, a hardcore gamer *and* a hardcore football player.)

Anyhoo, Zuniga cites Madden NFL 2005 and ESPN NFL 2K5 sales figures thus far: 1.3 million units for Madden, one million units for ESPN. This is a hell of a lot closer than I expected, a hell of a lot more for ESPN than I expected, and unquestionably a (Phyrric?) victory for SEGA--especially if Madden 2005 fails to match the two-million-unit sales totals of '03 and '04.

Todd also points out that Madden 2005 reached 1.3 million in one-third of the time it took NFL 2K5 to reach one millionm, and argues that many people bought ESPN in *addition* to Madden, not *instead* of Madden. ESPN was an impulse buy; Madden was a must-have.

Does NFL 2K6 stay at $20, especially now that one million consumers have been conditioned to expect that price point? Does it jump back to $50 under the assumption that most of those one million consumers are willing to forsake Madden and make ESPN their first and only choice? Or does it try a goofy "tweener" MSRP of $30 or $40?

Interesting stuff. Even more interesting when you toss in the rumor that EA Sports is already thinking about life after Madden. He's almost 70 years old, after all. He's not exactly someone to whom 20-something gamers can relate, and how much longer will he be able to croak out voice work?

(If I had a blog, this would be today's entry. Sorry.)

-- Z.

[SoulBlazer]

Great points. I know I planned to buy ESPN, but it was made a LOT easier when I heard the $20 price point. And coming out a few weeks before Madden ment it got plenty of play time.

Since Madden came out, though, I've only touched the game a few times. I wonder which two that people who OWN both are playing the most.

[JJNova]

These numbers can't be right. I'm nearly positive that Madden sold more games this year than the series has ever.....Bleh. Now you are going to make me research, or just go to bed tossing nd turning at the mayhem within my mind. Perhaps we shouldn't worry about what the price point for the next games is going to be, but we should be more worried about if EA gets the rights to the NFL, henceforth keeping any other Development team from using NFL players....Doobie Doo. EA owns Hockey already, and are in the process of buying golf....NFL and MLB are next on their list.....Will it work? Let's wait and see......

[classicb]

I was wondering when these numbers might come out. As far as next years price I would hope that sports games could be priced at $20. The upgraded rosters and gameplay tweeks are hardley worth $50. I would think though that Sega will price it in that "goofy tweener" around $30. Madden has too many fans for ESPN to price match.

[lendelin]

The sales figures for ESPN NFL didn't surprise me a lot. Realistically 600,000 to one million could be expected at that price point for a first-rate game; that the game sold so far around one million is certainly at the high end and even more of a success than a sale figure around 700,000 would have been in order ti catch-up with Madden.

I took a lot of heat and some personal attacks when I pointed out at release time that the price point makes a lot of economic sense, has economic prospects and in all likelihood will succeed. I also pointed out that Segas strategy is by no meaqns a dangerous precedent and reasoned against hysterical, short-sighted and not well-informed dark future visions. Well, like in election campaigns, moderate, reasonable voices are often overheard or seem radical compared to true over the top opinions.

Future price points for ESPN NFL as a competitor to Madden will depend on lots of things, the most important how well Sega does as a company!! If they can afford the same price in a year, they will do it. I doubt it however. Development costs are too high in the meantime to offer an AAA title for such a price again and do it as a long-term strategy.

Second, it depends how well Segas other sports titles at the $20 price do which affects Segas flexibility as a company and what they do with the game.

Third, it depends how EA reacts to the former dwarf which is now a serious competitor (not at the level of profit margins, but at the level of sales figures). In all likelihood, EA won't drop the price of Madden to $40 (no need to, and it wouldn't make economic sense) ), if they do as a long-term, very aggressive, and risky startegy , however, ESPN NFL will stay at the $20 price one more time.

In all likelihood we'll see a $30 price tag for the next ESPN NFL. If Sega is in good financial shape (microeconomics again) , and opt to consolidate the games name recognition and fanbase, they will offer the game one more time cheap; but only one more time before the price goes up (ino matter if the next game is for this or the next-generation consoles).

[NE146]

And I'll say this much. I am a lowly consumer. But I'm a consumer who's bought Madden since the first one hit the Genesis.

This year? Man I have to say I prefer ESPN Football. It's just chock full of goodness. Madden fell this year. But again, that's just my opinion as to which of the two I actually play. The ESPN pricing strategy worked for me. It made me buy it, and now I prefer it and tell everyone I know :P

[zmweasel]

I took a lot of heat and some personal attacks when I pointed out at release time that the price point makes a lot of economic sense, has economic prospects and in all likelihood will succeed. I also pointed out that Segas strategy is by no meaqns a dangerous precedent and reasoned against hysterical, short-sighted and not well-informed dark future visions. Well, like in election campaigns, moderate, reasonable voices are often overheard or seem radical compared to true over the top opinions.

No need to dredge up past ugliness, Klaus, nor to take additional potshots in the process.

-- Z.

[classicb]

Todd also points out that Madden 2005 reached 1.3 million in one-third of the time it took NFL 2K5 to reach one millionm, and argues that many people bought ESPN in *addition* to Madden, not *instead* of Madden. ESPN was an impulse buy; Madden was a must-have.


I agree with this not in my mind but in the minds of most gamers and it will be interesting to see if Sega can change that mind set. I tried to get my Madden friends to give ESPN a chance but they wouldn't do it. These are friends that buy maybe three games a year and one of them is always Madden. I love ESPN and think its a great game but it will be hard for Sega to really dent Madden long term.

[lendelin]

I took a lot of heat and some personal attacks when I pointed out at release time that the price point makes a lot of economic sense, has economic prospects and in all likelihood will succeed. I also pointed out that Segas strategy is by no meaqns a dangerous precedent and reasoned against hysterical, short-sighted and not well-informed dark future visions. Well, like in election campaigns, moderate, reasonable voices are often overheard or seem radical compared to true over the top opinions.

No need to dredge up past ugliness, Klaus, nor to take additional potshots in the process.

-- Z.

I told you after the ESPN debate that I do not hold grudges; I'm used to debates, exchange of differing opinions, it is the most natural thing in the world.

However, after I reasoned the last time about the Costykian (sp?) proposals, and I got surprisingly another lil' personal attack from you w/o directly responding to you or addressing you as you wished, I decided never to address you directly or engage in a debate with you again. I propose you ignore my posts and do not respond to them. I will do the same.

The reason: I genuinly enjoy discourse, however, I do not enjoy battles on a personal level and battles of egos. They are a complete waste of time.

Two times of below-the-beltline-arguments was enough for me. I like well reasoned strong opinions in civilized debates; I do not like personal attack battles.

Maybe I shouldn't have posted in a thread which you initiated, and probably I shouldn't have made an indirect reference to posts about opinions you shared with others. For that I apologize.

[Promophile]

I haven't played a Sports game on a system above SNES. One of the reasons is that a year after you buy it you'll be lucky to sell it for a dollar.

[videogameking26]

I own both, can say ESPN was a impusive buy with it only being $20 and I had Madden 2005: CE paided off for months before it's release...but being a sports buff I put over 3 franchise seasons on both and can't decide with one is better as both IMO are true "masterpieces" :D .

[SoulBlazer]

That's the big difference between gamers and collectors right there. :D

Gamers will happily shell out $50 for a new sports game, play it a lot during the course of a year, love it to death, feel they got their money worth, and then sell it when the new one comes out for $20 -- often to collectors. LOL

Oh, one other thing I pointed out some months ago -- of COURSE Madden is still going to outsell ESPN, when Madden is out on six platforms as compared to two. Simple economics and base. ;)

[norkusa]

I haven't played a Sports game on a system above SNES. One of the reasons is that a year after you buy it you'll be lucky to sell it for a dollar.

Well I buy my games to play and have fun with. I could care less how much they are worth a year from now.

Just pick one of the 2k5 titles up. You can get them cheap (I just got NBA 2k5 from Best Buy for $15 new) and even if you are just a mild sports fan, you'll be sure to dig it.

[slownerveaction]

Does NFL 2K6 stay at $20, especially now that one million consumers have been conditioned to expect that price point? Does it jump back to $50 under the assumption that most of those one million consumers are willing to forsake Madden and make ESPN their first and only choice? Or does it try a goofy "tweener" MSRP of $30 or $40?

I think SEGA's best bet to build on their momentum and keep the NFL series successful would be to leave the price point at $20 for the remainder of releases on this generation of consoles then bump it back up to $40-50 for the first entry on the next-gen consoles. But even that's a long-shot, really. I'd be more interested in seeing the opinions of people who were previously loyal to Madden, but picked up NFL 2K5 out of curiosity (in addition to Madden). Those numbers would be the most telling about the future prospects of the series.

BTW, are those figures just for PS2 sales or across all platforms?

[goatdan]

While it is by no means a scientific study, I casually asked in a few gaming stores around town if NFL 2K5 was any good, and they all told me that it had outsold Madden so far. Twice I heard people suggest it to customers when they asked about Madden (If you're interested in Madden, you might want to look into NFL 2K5...)

As a huge Dreamcast fan, I find all of the references to it in NBA 2K5 that I have found hilarious so far too. My character is currently sporting a VMU tatoo and is wearing the "SegaNet" uniform that has 2K1 on it.

[zmweasel]

I own both, can say ESPN was a impusive buy with it only being $20 and I had Madden 2005: CE paided off for months before it's release...but being a sports buff I put over 3 franchise seasons on both and can't decide with one is better as both IMO are true "masterpieces" :D .

Here's the burning question: if Madden 2006 and ESPN NFL 2K6 are each priced at $50, will you still buy both?

-- Z.

[pookninja]

i own both.i bought espn nfl 2k5 the week that it came out,only for the reason that it was 20 dollars.i preordered and bought maden 2005,and got it the day it came out.both are great games,both games play and look great.but,if i have to say which is better,i would say nfl2k5,because of the price.if they were both 50 dollars,i would give it to madden(barely)now next year,if nfl2k6 is only 20 dollars,i wont even buy madden.also,its funny,when we all play any multiplayer football,we dont even play madden anymore,we play nfl2k5.sega needs to keep there sports games at 20 dollars.

[Daniel Thomas]

I think this demostrates the value of sensibly pricing games. This notion of paying over $50 for a videogame, in the age of $15-20 DVDs is absurd. Why are we going back to the bad old days of $70 cartridges?

I'm fully aware of the excessive costs of making games today. Yet I still feel a little skeptical when we get yearly sports games that are mostly built from last year's model. It can't always be costing millions to make each NFL2K and Madden. Right?

If they can make a profit at $20 - and if not, why not? - then Sega should pursue that. Their sports titles wouldn't have sold anywhere these numbers at a full price; but twenty clams makes them affordable. I expect this would work for the whole industry, and would benefit most of the software developers, who right now aren't making any money, anyway.

You're not going to compete against the big boys - the EA's - on their terms. Go the budget route, and at least make a couple bucks.

Eck. I have a weblog (sorta), and I still wrote this. Huh.

[Gamereviewgod]

Also keep in mind that Madden is on all three consoles. Wonder what that number is for just PS2 and Box?

[Half Japanese]

Didn't Todd used to get called "T-Zone" or some other such idiocy?

Anyway, to sort of pick at Daniel's post, one reason DVDs can come out cheaper is that (in most cases) they've had a theatrical run and that's where a lot of money has been made back. Games have no equivelant of a "theatrical run" and are thus a little more expensive. That's not to say that I have no respect for cheap games, to me that's the theme of the year...excellent games getting released at very low prices. I love it.

[JJNova]

Anyway, to sort of pick at Daniel's post, one reason DVDs can come out cheaper is that (in most cases) they've had a theatrical run and that's where a lot of money has been made back. Games have no equivelant of a "theatrical run" and are thus a little more expensive.

Perhaps I should just be charged 8 dollars per person enjoying the video game? Like a theatrical run. That would make most of my games.... 8 dollars. Unless you count my wife watching me play soemtimes, then I suppose I would have to pitch in the extra 8 bucks for her, then the large popcorn and hte large soda that we would share. Then of course dinner afterwards or before the movie. Hmm...Tally that all together, My games would wind up costing 50 bucks. Dammit, and I dont get to "score" when buying a new game.

[Ed Oscuro]

So ESPN = Sega and Madden = EA. I knew that; just thought I'd post that for anybody who's forgotten like I had (on the ESPN part).

So Sega is competing with Madden now? That's very interesting.

[Anthony1]

I read that this $19.99 strategy is something that they are using until the newer consoles come out.


The hope is that they can get about 25 percent of EA's audience to switch to the Sega Sports games.


Then, when the newer consoles are out, the prices will go back to $49.99. But they feel that they will have enough people in their camp, that will give their game a legitimate chance.

Ever since the first NFL2K on the Dreamcast, I've prefered the NFL2K and ESPN series. And this is coming from somebody that feels that Madden '93 on the Genesis is the best football game of all time. Best pure playability of any football game. Even though certainly the graphics are ridiculously dated.

This year, I have ESPN, but I must say that I'm not as happy with this years version of the ESPN game. I don't like the new dramatic lighting they are using. It makes the game too dark.

Other than that, the game is fantastic, and it's completely ridiculous that it's only $19.99.

You know what they should do? They should give have a special offer to all Madden owners.

They could send them a copy of ESPN for a free tiral. They can keep the game if they send the $20, otherwise they have to return it in the prepaid envelope, like NetFlix.

[zmweasel]

Also keep in mind that Madden is on all three consoles. Wonder what that number is for just PS2 and Box?

It's quite possible that the Todd-monster lumped all the platforms together. I sent him a follow-up email, although I doubt he'll respond to either of my inquiries.

As of August 28, ESPN NFL 2K5 had sold just shy of 700,000 copies on the Xbox in two months, making it the 11th best-selling game in the history of the system; Madden NFL 2005 had sold 509,000 copies in roughly a month, good for 22nd on the list so far.

Madden NFL 2004 sold 787,000 copies on the Xbox, good for 7th on the all-time list, and was the best-selling multiplatform video game of 2003.

-- Z.

[zmweasel]

So ESPN = Sega and Madden = EA. I knew that; just thought I'd post that for anybody who's forgotten like I had (on the ESPN part).

So Sega is competing with Madden now? That's very interesting.

ESPN NFL 2K5 was co-published by SEGA and Global Star, the sort-of budget division of Take-Two Interactive. There was healthy speculation that Visual Concepts (ESPN's developers) and ESPN were both disappointed with SEGA's efforts, and brought in Take-Two to shake things up. Good call.

-- Z.

[videogameking26]

Here's the burning question: if Madden 2006 and ESPN NFL 2K6 are each priced at $50, will you still buy both?


Very good question there, for a true answer I believe I would say I would pick-up Madden 2006 and bypass NFL 2K6 as Madden has always been there for me w/ a great football experience, ESPN 2K well it's good but not worth $50 IMO.

[classicb]

Here's the burning question: if Madden 2006 and ESPN NFL 2K6 are each priced at $50, will you still buy both?


Very good question there, for a true answer I believe I would say I would pick-up Madden 2006 and bypass NFL 2K6 as Madden has always been there for me w/ a great football experience, ESPN 2K well it's good but not worth $50 IMO.

I had actually planned on buying ESPN 2K5 this year even if it was $50. I like the 2K series and the Madden series but I can't afford to buy them both when their at $50 so I rotate year to year unless I see one that is a clear cut favorite. Since I got ESPN this year I would get Madden in 06 if they were both $50. But since ESPN will probably price cut again I'll probably go back to ESPN.